SAVOY
Jody A. Goad
Rooters,
First of all I apologize for not including my name at the end of my
other message.
This question involves the Counts of Savoy.
Here is what I have on the Savoy line that are ancestors of mine.
It starts with Beatrice of Savoy, the mother of Eleanor of Provence (father
is Count Raymond Berenger of Provence). I have plenty of information on the
male ancestors of Beatrice, but nothing on the mothers.
Beatrice's father was Count Thomas of Savoy who died in 1233.
Thomas's father was Count Bl Humbert III who died in 1189 (Ruled from
1148-1189).
Bl Humbert's father was Count Amadeus III who died in 1148 (Ruled from
1103-1148).
Amadeus's father was Count Humbert II who died in 1103 (Ruled from 1080-1103).
Humbert's father was Count Amadeus II who died in 1080.
Amadeus's father was County Oddone who died in 1059.
Oddone's father was Count Humbert I who died in 1048. He was known as
"Whitehands" and was the Count of Savoy and Belley by 1000 and Aosta and
Maurienne by 1043. He was the father of both Oddone and Amadeus I.
Any more information on this family is greatly appreciated. Thank you.
Jody
Jody A. Goad
jog...@vt.edu
http://www.vt.edu:10021/J/jogoad/begin.html
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/7946/
Department of Chemistry
Alpha Chi Sigma
William Addams Reitwiesner
"Jody A. Goad" <jog...@VT.EDU> wrote:
>Rooters,
>
> First of all I apologize for not including my name at the end of my
>other message.
>
> This question involves the Counts of Savoy.
>
> Here is what I have on the Savoy line that are ancestors of mine.
>It starts with Beatrice of Savoy, the mother of Eleanor of Provence (father
>is Count Raymond Berenger of Provence). I have plenty of information on the
>male ancestors of Beatrice, but nothing on the mothers.
Here's what Detlev Schwennicke, in *Europaeische Stammtafeln*, Band II,
Tafel 190, has to say:
>Beatrice's father was Count Thomas of Savoy who died in 1233.
and her mother was Beatrice (d. 1257), daughter of William I, Count of
Geneva.
>Thomas's father was Count Bl Humbert III who died in 1189 (Ruled from
>1148-1189).
and his mother was Beatrix (d. 1230), daughter of Gerard I, Count of
Macon.
>Bl Humbert's father was Count Amadeus III who died in 1148 (Ruled from
>1103-1148).
and his mother was Mathilde (d. after 1145), daughter of Guy VI, Count of
Albon and Dauphin of Viennois.
>Amadeus's father was Count Humbert II who died in 1103 (Ruled from 1080-1103).
and his mother was Gisela (d. after 1133), daughter of William I,
Palatine Count of Burgundy.
>Humbert's father was Count Amadeus II who died in 1080.
and his mother was apparently Jeanne, daughter of Gerold, Count of
Geneva.
>Amadeus's father was County Oddone who died in 1059.
and his mother was Adelaide (d. 1091), Margravine of Susa, daughter of
Udalric Manfred, Margrave of Susa.
>Oddone's father was Count Humbert I who died in 1048.
and his mother was Auxilia, apparently a daughter of Arnold I of
Lenzburg.
>Any more information on this family is greatly appreciated. Thank you.
Hope this helps.
William Addams Reitwiesner
wr...@erols.com
Alan B. Wilson
Jody A. Goad <jog...@mail.vt.edu> listed the paternal ancestors of
Beatrice of Savoy and asked about the mothers.
Here is an ancestral list for Beatrice of Savoy, giving the wives at
each generation and the parents of these wives. The data come, for the
most part, from Europaische Stammtafeln ii, 190.
1 Beatrix de Savoy. Born circa 1198 of Provence, France. Died Dec
1266. She married Raimond Beranger V of Provence Count, Dec 1220.
2 Thomas of Savoy Count. Born 20 May 1178 in Carbonierres, Savoy,
France. Died 1 Mar 1233 in Aosta, Savoy, France. Count of Savoy. He
married Marguerite (Beatrix) of Geneva, May 1195.
3 Marguerite (Beatrix) of Geneva. Born Circa 1180. Died 13 Apr 1236 in
Pierre-Châtel, Isère, France.
4 Humbert III of Savoy Count. Born 4 Aug 1136 in Aveillare (Savoy)
France. Died 4 Mar 1189 in Cypress. Count of Savoy. He married Béatrix de
Mâcon (de Vienne), Circa 1175.
5 Béatrix de Mâcon (de Vienne). Born Circa 1160 of (Vienne) France.
Died Before 8 Apr 1230.
6 William I of Geneva Count. Born 1130 of Genf, Genf, Switzerland.
Died 25 Jul 1195. Count of Geneva. He married Beatrix de Faucigny ?,
Circa 1165.
7 Beatrix de Faucigny ?.
8 Amadeus III of Savoy Count. Born Circa 1095 of (Savoy) France. Died
30 Oct 1148 in Nicosia, Cyprus. I Count of Savoy. He married Maud d'Albon,
1123.
9 Maud d'Albon. Of Viennois, France. Died after Jan 1145.
10 Gerard de Vienne comte. Born Circa 1112 of Mâcon (Saône-et Loire)
France. Died 15 Sep 1184. Count of Vienne and Macon. He married Maurette \
Guyonne de Salins, Before 1172.
11 Maurette \ Guyonne de Salins. Born Circa 1130 of Salins (Jura)
France. Died 1184.
16 Humbert de Maurienne Count. Born Circa 1070 of Maurienne, France.
Died 14 Oct 1103. Count of Savoy and Maurienne and Turin. He married
Gisela de Bourgogne, Circa 1090.
17 Gisela de Bourgogne. Born Circa 1060 of Bourgogne, France. Died
After 1133.
18 Guigo VIII d'Albon. Born Circa 1060 of Albon, France. Died 21 Dec
1125. He married Matilde of Apulien, 1106/1110.
19 Matilde of Apulien. Born Circa 1065. Died 1144.
32 Amadeus of Savoy Count. Born Circa 1045 of Marnn, France. Died 26
Jan 1080. Count of Savoy and Susa. He married Johanna von GENF, 1065/1070.
33 Johanna von GENF. Born Circa 1052 of Genf, Genf, Switzerland. Died 1095.
34 Guillaume "le Grande" de Bourgogne Count. Born Circa 1024 of
Bourgogne. Died 12 Nov 1087. He married Stephanie \ Etiennete de Longwy,
1049/1057.
35 Stephanie \ Etiennete de Longwy. Born Circa 1035. Died After 1088.
64 Eudes \ Odo of Suze Marquis. Born Circa 1015 of Suze, France. Died 1
Mar 1060. Count of Maurienne Count of Chablais. Marquis of Suze & of
Ivres. He married Adelaide of Torino, 1046.
65 Adelaide of Torino. Born Circa 1015. Died 27 Dec 1091.
(Adelheid von Susa, t. v. Mgf Meginfred in ES i, 10, but daughter of
Olderico and Bertha in ES ii, 190 & 199.)
66 Gerold von Genf. Born Circa 1012 of Genf, Genf, Switzerland.
67 Gisela. Born Circa 1016 of Genf, Switzerland.
128 Humbert I "Bianca Mano" Count of Aosta. Born 0985 of Savoy,
France. Died 1048. Count of Aosta, 1025, and Maurienne, 1027.. He married
Auxilia of Noyen, Before 1030.
129 Auxilia of Noyen. Born Circa 989 of Maurienne, France.
130 Olderico Manfredo di Torino Marquis. Born Circa 940. Died 23 Dec
1035. Buried in Turin S Giovanni. Marquis of Turin. He married Bertha of
Este, Before 1014.
131 Bertha of Este. Born Circa 990. Died After 4 Nov 1037.
--
Alan B. Wilson
abwi...@uclink2.berkeley.edu
Jim Stevens
Jody A. Goad <jog...@vt.edu> recently asked -
> Here is what I have on the Savoy line that are ancestors of mine.
(snip)
>Beatrice's father was Count Thomas of Savoy who died in 1233.
(multi-generational snip)
>Oddone's father was Count Humbert I who died in 1048. He was known as
>"Whitehands" and was the Count of Savoy and Belley by 1000 and Aosta and
>Maurienne by 1043. He was the father of both Oddone and Amadeus I.
>
>Any more information on this family is greatly appreciated. Thank you.
Thanks to the miracles of cut-and-paste technology I am probably sending
you much more than you ever wanted:
First, a brief listing of the line as far back as I have been able to trace it:
CORRECTIONS APPRECIATED !!!
a. CHILDEBRAND I, possibly a maternal half-brother of CHARLES MARTEL m.
ROLANDE, possibly of unspecified and Merovingian descent.
b. NIVELON I, COUNT OF AUTUN
c. CHILDEBRAND II, DUKE OF LOMBARDY m. DUNNE, dau. of THIERRY II, COUNT
OF AUTUN
d. THEODORIC I, DUKE OF BURGUNDY m. RICHILDA, dau. of BOSO, COUNT OF BURGUNDY
e. BOSO I, KING OF PROVENCE & ITALY Boson was Count of Vienne and
governor of Burgundy under the Carolingians. His wife, ERMENGARDE, felt
that as she was the daughter of an emporer, she ought to be married to more
than a mere count. Also, she considered herself as soverign of both Italy
and Burgundy in her own right. She persuaded Pope John VIII to crown Boson
king of Provence.
The years following the death of Boso's father-in-law, KING LOUIS II of
Italy without a male heir were a period of civil war between several rival
claimants to the throne. From 875 to 877, CHARLES THE BALD, King of
France, was nominally also King of Italy. Boso was his main
representative. Boso was an unsuccessful claimant in 879.
f. LOUIS THE BLIND, KING OF ITALY & PROVENCE He succeeded his father as
king of Provence. In 900, in the midst of a period of political
instability, the nobles of northwest Italy, led by ADALBERT, MARQUIS OF
IVREA, elected Louis as their king. He went to Rome, where he was also
crowned as Emporer. He lost his support and gave up the Italian throne to
BERENGER I of Friuli in 902. He tried again to take the throne in 905, but
BERENGER captured him and had him blinded.
In his book, "The Lost Kingdom of Burgundy", Christopher Cope says that
since he died with no sons, his successor was his regent, Hugh, Count of
Arles. Most sources, however, hold that CHARLES CONSTANTINE was LOUIS' son
as I've shown here.
The parentage of CHARLES CONSTANTINE has long been a matter of heated
discussion. Several months back, it was the subject of quite a long thread
on this newsgroup. From what I could tell, the most likely parents for
CHARLES CONSTANTINE are Louis the Blind and ANNA, dau. of the EASTERN ROMAN
EMPORER, LEO VI.
g. CHARLES CONSTANTINE m. TEUTEBERGE OF TROYES (parentage unk. -at least
to me)
g. HUMBERT I, COUNT OF BELLAY (d.975). Wife unk.
h. AMADEUS I, COUNT OF MAURIENNE & SAVOY (d.980). Wife unk.
Now follows the meat of the discussion on the HOUSE OF SAVOY :
the son of AMADUS I -
1. HUMBERT I COUNT OF MAURIENNE (abt.972 - 1 Jul 1042) was the founder of
the great House of Savoy. The "Dictionary of Royal Lineage" shows, as I've
done, his father as AMADEUS I. The LDS AF shows Gerald of Geneva as his
father and Ancelia Von Lenz as his mother. Christopher Cope, in his book,
"The Lost Kingdom of Burgundy", writes under the heading, 'The beginnings
of Savoy' : "The House of Savoy emerged into history with the title of
Counts of Maurienne around 1000. They gained Savoy and other territories
during the eleventh century. They prospered largely because, almost alone
of the Burgundian nobles, Count Hubert White Hands backed the German
conquerers against his own soverign, Rudolph III; and his son [sic. - even
his own genealogical tables show him as Humbert's grandson] AMADEUS II
accompanied the EMPORER HENRY III into Lombardy and became a good friend of
his so that when they parted HENRY gave him the city of Asti in memory of
the many jars of foaming wine they had emptied together. This happy
episode forged the link between the House of Savoy and Italy which was
broken only thirty-seven years ago [i.e. in 1948]." HUMBERT's wife was
named AUCILLA (parentage unk.)
2. OTTO (EUDES) COUNT OF SAVOY AND MAURIENNE ABT (1002 - 19 Jan
1057/1060) m. ADELAIDE, dau. of OLDERICO MANFREDI II, MARQUIS OF SUSA (d.
1035) and BERTHA, a descendant of the Marquises of Tuscany.
3. AMADEUS II, COUNT OF SAVOY (1032/49 - 26 Jan 1080). The LDS AF gives
his wife as JOAN, daughter of GEROLD, count of Geneva. The "Dictionary of
Royal Lineage" states that ADELAIDE, daughter of OTTO, Marquis of Ivrea,
was his wife. See his grandfather, HUMBERT I, for a biographical note.
Note: Any comments shedding light on the identity of
Amadeus II's wife would be greatly appreciated !
4. HUMBERT II, COUNT OF SAVOY (abt 1062 - 1102) m. GISLEA (abt 1060 -
1133), dau. of WILLIAM I, COUNT OF BURGUNDY (abt 1040 - 11 Nov 1087)
5. AMADEUS III, COUNT OF SAVOY (1088/94 - 1 Apr 1148/1149)followed the
Emporer Conrad III on the Second Crusade in 1147 and adopted the white
cross which the Savoyards wore on their shields thereafter and which is
still the emblem of the region. He m. MATILDA (d. aft Jan 1145), dau. of
GUIGES III OF ALBON.
6. HUMBERT III, COUNT OF SAVOY (1 Aug 1136 - 4 Mar 1188/1189) Quoting
from Christopher Cope's, "The Lost Kingdom of Burgundy" : "Humbert III, who
reigned from 1149 to 1189, . . . was a man of irresolute spirit who was
disconsolate at being born a prince and preferred the seclusion of a
monestery. He only renounced his chosen state of celibacy so as to give
his land an heir . . . " Two wives produced only a daughter. "Humbert
gave up and became a Carthusian monk . . . As the ancient chronicle
narrates, the barons, knights, and people of Savoy went to the abbot to beg
him to restore their count to them, but his marriage . . . again only
produced a daughter; Humbert was about to withdraw to the abbey of Aulps
when he was prevailed on to marry yet again, and his fourth wife [GERTUDE,
dau. of THIERRY, COUNT OF FLANDERS] gave him an heir who fortunately had
the kingly qualities which Humbert lacked."
Weis' "Ancestral Roots . . ." (133:36), however, has the third wife,
BEATRIX dau. of GIRARD, COUNT OF VIENNE/MACON (as THOMAS' mother.
On a close call, I have chosen to go with Weis.
Note: Any help on this issue would also be appreciated !
7. THOMAS, COUNT OF SAVOY (20 Mar 1177 - 20 Jan 1233). Quoting from
Christipher Cope's, "The Lost Kingdom of Burgundy" :
"The reign of HUMBERT's son, Count Thomas I (1189-1233), opened a golden
age for Savoy for he started the great advance north-westwards which
carried his successors' sway over the Rhone into Bresse and to the Saone
between Macon and Chalon. Even more significant was his victory over
Berthold V of Zahringen which cleared the way for the conquest by his son
Peter II (1263-8) of what is now the cantons of Vaud and Fribourg. Thomas
was also more successful than his father in reproducing his race for his
bride, MARGARET, daughter of the COUNT OF GENEVOIS, who raised eight sons
and six daughters. [Thomas m. MARGARET (abt 1180 - 8 Apr 1257), dau. of
WILLIAM I, COUNT OF GENEVA (1130 - 27 Jul 1195) and heiress of Faucigni.]
According to the chronicler of Hautecombe Abbey, the Westminster of Savoy,
MARGARET was being taken in 1196 to France by her ambitious father to
become the third wife of Richard Lionhart's enemy, PHILIP AUGUSTUS. Thomas
had fallen passionately in love with her and, ambushing her party in a
narrow gorge in Bugey, defied the KING OF FRANCE and carried her off to the
altar."
"From the time of Thomas I the counts were effectively rulers of a minor
kingdom and there were very few states of any size in which the central
power had so successfully established its authority."
Savoy's greatest days were under Thomas' sons, Peter and Philip. Savoy
prospered and even continued to expand from this time on into the sixteenth
century.
8a. AMADEUS IV, COUNT OF SAVOY (1197-24 Aug 1253) succeeded his father as
Count of Savoy upon his death in 1233 and ruled until his own death in
1253. There is little record of anything of note accomplished during his
tenure. His son, Bonifacio Roland succeeded him as count from 1253 to
1263, but little is said of his accomplishments either. The county then
went to Amadeus' brother, Peter II (1263-1268), who was known as "Little
Charlemagne", and then to the next brother, Philip (1268-1285). Peter
aggressively expanded Savoy's influence in the tradition of his father and
Philip was one of the most powerful rulers in Europe.
Amadeus IV m. MARGUARITE ANNE, dau. of HUGH III, DUKE OF BURGUNDY (1148
- 25 Oct 1192) and 7th generation descendent of HUGH CAPET.
8b. Amadeus IV had a sister - BEATRIX (abt 1201 - Dec 1266) who m. RAMON
BERENGUER V, COUNT OF PROVENCE (1195 - 19 Aug 1245). By Ramon's time
Provence had been at peace for two and a half centuries. There were few
lands that had enjoyed peace and prosperity with so little interruption.
Since the end of the tenth century Provence had grown more in population
and wealth than any other part of Europe.
Few men in history have been more successful in finding powerful and
influential mates for their daughters than Ramon. His four daughters
married two sets of brothers - all of them kings! Margaret married King
Louis IX of France; ELEANOR married KING HENRY III OF ENGLAND; Sanchia
married HENRY's brother, Richard of Cornwall, who was recognized for a time
as the German Emporer; and Beatrice, the youngest and his appointed heir,
married Louis' brother, Charles of Anjou, who at one time or another held
the titles King of Sicily and King of Jerusalem and was briefly master of
most of Italy and Greece. He was almost able to make an independent state
of Burgundy.
Ramon bequeathed to Beatrice an administrative machine to be rivaled
only by those created by the Normans in England and Sicily.
Thanx for hanging on. Hope this helps.
Today is the first day of the rest of your life ! (jste...@iquest.net) Jim
Stewart Baldwin
jste...@iquest.net wrote (in response to a question about the house
of Savoy):
[snip]
>First, a brief listing of the line as far back as I have been able to trace it:
>
>CORRECTIONS APPRECIATED !!!
>
>a. CHILDEBRAND I, possibly a maternal half-brother of CHARLES MARTEL m.
>ROLANDE, possibly of unspecified and Merovingian descent.
>
>b. NIVELON I, COUNT OF AUTUN
Nivelon (or Nibelung) is generally regarded (with good reason) as the
ancestor of a large family, but the evidence is mainly onomastic, and
solid proof of his connections to his immediate descendants is
lacking. See Settipani, "La Prehistoire des Capetiens", (1993), pp.
341ff.
>c. CHILDEBRAND II, DUKE OF LOMBARDY m. DUNNE, dau. of THIERRY II, COUNT
>OF AUTUN
>
>d. THEODORIC I, DUKE OF BURGUNDY m. RICHILDA, dau. of BOSO, COUNT OF BURGUNDY
This link between d. and e. is definitely wrong. King Boso of
Provence was the brother of Richard, duke of Burgundy, and son of
count Bivin. See Settipani, pp. 388ff. Settipani conjectures that
Bivin was a descendant in the direct male line of Hieronymus, son of
Charles Martel, but none of the intervening generations is proven.
Charles Constantine had two sons named Richard and Hugobert (who I
assume is intended to be the same as the above "Humbert"). Hugobert
died after May 976, but nothing is known of his family. Settipani
mentions the that Richard and Hugobert have been suggested as
ancestors of the counts of Savoy, but rejects it as unlikely.
>h. AMADEUS I, COUNT OF MAURIENNE & SAVOY (d.980). Wife unk.
>
>Now follows the meat of the discussion on the HOUSE OF SAVOY :
>
>the son of AMADUS I -
A doubtful link, considering the source.
>1. HUMBERT I COUNT OF MAURIENNE (abt.972 - 1 Jul 1042) was the founder of
>the great House of Savoy. The "Dictionary of Royal Lineage" shows, as I've
>done, his father as AMADEUS I. The LDS AF shows Gerald of Geneva as his
>father and Ancelia Von Lenz as his mother. Christopher Cope, in his book,
>"The Lost Kingdom of Burgundy", writes under the heading, 'The beginnings
>of Savoy' : "The House of Savoy emerged into history with the title of
>Counts of Maurienne around 1000. They gained Savoy and other territories
>during the eleventh century. They prospered largely because, almost alone
>of the Burgundian nobles, Count Hubert White Hands backed the German
>conquerers against his own soverign, Rudolph III; and his son [sic. - even
>his own genealogical tables show him as Humbert's grandson] AMADEUS II
>accompanied the EMPORER HENRY III into Lombardy and became a good friend of
>his so that when they parted HENRY gave him the city of Asti in memory of
>the many jars of foaming wine they had emptied together. This happy
>episode forged the link between the House of Savoy and Italy which was
>broken only thirty-seven years ago [i.e. in 1948]." HUMBERT's wife was
>named AUCILLA (parentage unk.)
>
>2. OTTO (EUDES) COUNT OF SAVOY AND MAURIENNE ABT (1002 - 19 Jan
>1057/1060) m. ADELAIDE, dau. of OLDERICO MANFREDI II, MARQUIS OF SUSA (d.
>1035) and BERTHA, a descendant of the Marquises of Tuscany.
>
[snip]
The "Dictionary of Royal Lineage" is a *terrible* source to be using
for royal genealogy, and is especially bad for the earlier medieval
period. I recommend avoiding it entirely. If used at all, it should
only be used as a finding aid, which *might* point you in the right
direction, but could just as easily be sending you along a false
trail.
Stewart Baldwin