Vapourware - Games That Never Made It
Bill Sherrard
>> I'm currently doing a little research for an article about vapourware
>> and would appreciate any assistance you can offer.
>> What I want to know is this - can you remember any games that were
>> announced, previewed by game mags or online, and yet never actually
>> released?
>> It doesn't matter how old the game is, I'm interested in anything you
>> can come up with. Just reply here (and please email me as well) with the
>> game's title and publisher and any other information that may prove
>> useful.
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>> spaceboy
Bioforge 2 was hyped in the magazines but never made it to the shelves.
spaceboy
John M Clancy
"Into The Shadows" Was supposed to be a Quake killer.
The Demo was awesome but I heard the team fell apart.
--
John M Clancy aka MeleKahn aka Poison
"Where ever you are in life, that's where you
want to be"
Symber Ash
How about Ultima 8 part 2....and the CD version of U8...(although im kinda
glad they didnt come out, as I probably would have wasted my money on them.
:)
Bill Sherrard <sher...@applink.net> wrote in article
<6ij2a5$k...@news.cybernews.net>...
cjg
spaceboy <dav...@next.com.au> wrote:
>I'm currently doing a little research for an article about vapourware
>and would appreciate any assistance you can offer.
>What I want to know is this - can you remember any games that were
>announced, previewed by game mags or online, and yet never actually
>released?
>It doesn't matter how old the game is, I'm interested in anything you
>can come up with. Just reply here (and please email me as well) with the
>game's title and publisher and any other information that may prove
>useful.
>Thanks in advance.
>spaceboy
Return to Krondor...(a sequel to Betrayal at Krondor)
An alternate sequel was released by Sierra-Betrayal in Antara
Kevin Grey
After numerous delays, RtK is due this winter from Sierra. They even have a
web page up for it now.
Kevin Grey
cjg wrote in message <6ijfil$m...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>...
Paul Francis Gilbert
cjgl...@facstaff.wisc.edu (cjg) writes:
>spaceboy <dav...@next.com.au> wrote:
>>I'm currently doing a little research for an article about vapourware
>>and would appreciate any assistance you can offer.
>>What I want to know is this - can you remember any games that were
>>announced, previewed by game mags or online, and yet never actually
>>released?
>>It doesn't matter how old the game is, I'm interested in anything you
>>can come up with. Just reply here (and please email me as well) with the
>>game's title and publisher and any other information that may prove
>>useful.
>>Thanks in advance.
>>spaceboy
>Return to Krondor...(a sequel to Betrayal at Krondor)
>An alternate sequel was released by Sierra-Betrayal in Antara
Actually, Return to Krondor didn't go down with 7th Level... Sierra picked it
up are working in it at the moment.
I have to say that the all-time greatest vapourware of all is Grimoire by
Lord Steve (who used to post in this newsgroup). Supposed to be the
pen-ultimate RPG game which concentrated on story and play rather than flashy
graphics, it never got of the ground.
You can do a websearch on grimoire to get more info.
--
Paul Gilbert | p...@yallara.cs.rmit.edu.au (The DreamMaster)
Bach App Sci, Bach Eng | The opinions expressed are my own, all my own, and
Year 5, RMIT Melbourne | as such will contain no references to small furry
Australia | creatures from Alpha Centauri.
dstephen
spaceboy (dav...@next.com.au) wrote:
: I'm currently doing a little research for an article about vapourware
: and would appreciate any assistance you can offer.
: What I want to know is this - can you remember any games that were
: announced, previewed by game mags or online, and yet never actually
: released?
: It doesn't matter how old the game is, I'm interested in anything you
: can come up with. Just reply here (and please email me as well) with the
: game's title and publisher and any other information that may prove
: useful.
: Thanks in advance.
:
: spaceboy
2 biggest recent vapourware titles are Prey and Unreal.
Both these were supposed to come out and be quake killers,
since then quake2 has been worked on and finished and is
almost "old" now.
Unreal I guess is coming out this month actually!!!
Prey seems to never be coming out.
Both these games seem like they are about 3 years late.
Dave
--
dste...@gohome.com
(remove the "go" for email)
Fred Quattrone
Cyberpunk
Ultima 8 add on The Lost vale (Origin)
Planetfall: the return of Floyd, I think it was called this (Activision)
Demon Isle-Sierra, I am not sure if this has been canned but it was supposed
to be a Diablo clone.
ICE
Creation was gonna be made by Bullfrog... sounded and looked good. ahh well.
ICE
Symber Ash wrote in message <01bd76fa$a56c9460$c19256d1@symberas>...
>How about Ultima 8 part 2....and the CD version of U8...(although im kinda
>glad they didnt come out, as I probably would have wasted my money on them.
>:)
>
>
>
>Bill Sherrard <sher...@applink.net> wrote in article
><6ij2a5$k...@news.cybernews.net>...
>>
Geoffrey Stratton
ICE (SPAMsu...@altu.net.au) wrote:
: Creation was gonna be made by Bullfrog... sounded and looked good. ahh well.
:
You could also add's Bullfrog's The Indestructibles, which reportedly was
shelved when the lead programmer took off on a world cruise. It was
supposed to be a superhero game in the vein of MicroProse's Guardians:
Agents of Justice, which also has seen its share of delays.
-Geoff
: ICE
: >>
: >>
: >
: >
:
:
Vindicated by Avault Article
Seventh Sword of Mendor, Vapourware.
Peteroo
>Planetfall: the return of Floyd, I think it was called this (Activision)
In fact, there were a couple of incomplete versions of this. Activision started
off working with Planetfall/Stationfall authorSteve Meretzky, and made a later
attempt without him. As I recall, at least one was storyboarded and a fair
amount of artwork was done. It was finally killed around the time of Zork
Nemesis.
(Another lost game from the Activision/Infocom: The IBM version of Quarterstaff
was canceled when it was about 90 percent complete. Shame, as Quarterstaff was
(and is) a remarkable game.
>Demon Isle-Sierra, I am not sure if this has been canned but it was supposed
>to be a Diablo clone.
I remember this being first-person rather than third. It's been canned as far
as Sierra is concerned but, I think, as often happens it's been given back to
the developer, so it could conceivably surface somewhere else.
Peter
cl...@ans.com.au
In article <6ijjbm$72p$1...@goanna.cs.rmit.edu.au>#1/1,
p...@cs.rmit.edu.au (Paul Francis Gilbert) wrote:
>
> I have to say that the all-time greatest vapourware of all is Grimoire by
> Lord Steve (who used to post in this newsgroup). Supposed to be the
> pen-ultimate RPG game which concentrated on story and play rather than
flashy
> graphics, it never got of the ground.
>
> You can do a websearch on grimoire to get more info.
>
Grimoire is not vapourware. Vapourware is a game that is heavily advertised
and hyped before it even exists, then never even makes it to alpha. A game
that makes it to beta testing, then is redesigned due to suggestions during
the beta test, is not vapourware. It's damn good software development.
Grimoire is now a second generation product and it was never even released as
a first generation product. Basically, when we release it, we want it to be:
1. 100% bug free
2. 100% compatible on all systems
3. 100% as perfect as we can make it on our budget.
This is not vapourware, this is the ultimate RPG. It is being delayed because
it is getting better by the hour with what amounts to very small tweaks and
changes.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
joelm...@geocities.com
In article <6in4ta$5oh$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>#1/1,
cl...@ans.com.au wrote:
>
> Grimoire is not vapourware. Vapourware is a game that is heavily advertised
> and hyped before it even exists, then never even makes it to alpha. A game
> that makes it to beta testing, then is redesigned due to suggestions during
> the beta test, is not vapourware. It's damn good software development.
> Grimoire is now a second generation product and it was never even released
> as a first generation product. Basically, when we release it, we want it to
> be:
>
> 1. 100% bug free
> 2. 100% compatible on all systems
> 3. 100% as perfect as we can make it on our budget.
If you can do this get the hell out of games and write opporating systems. Of
course, somehow I have my doubts.
> This is not vapourware, this is the ultimate RPG. It is being delayed
> because it is getting better by the hour with what amounts to very small
> tweaks and changes.
If anyone wants a good laugh, look back at cleve's posts over the past eight
months as he explains that Grimoire will be just a little while longer. Go
back far enough and you'll even catch him complaining about companies that
announce games to far in advance and do not deliver. Of course, I'm sure the
irony of this passes right over certain people's heads (probably the same
sort of people who retroactively revise their statements on releasing their
game to explain why it is so late and that they are still god's gift to
gaming).
Joel Mathis
Sith Dragon
On Tue, 05 May 1998 08:40:58 -0600, cl...@ans.com.au wrote:
<munch>
>This is not vapourware, this is the ultimate RPG.
You're really starting to sound like Derek Smart. Soon you'll start
telling us it's going to be the last thing we'll ever desire.
_______________________________________________________________
Sith Dragon Visit my website at http://www.walrus.com/~sith for the
=(UDIC)= latest news on Ultima: Ascension as well as the Ultima:
si...@walrus.com Ascension FAQ.
_______________________________________________________________
cl...@ans.com.au
In article <6ina29$dqu$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>#1/1,
joelm...@geocities.com wrote:
> >
> > 1. 100% bug free
> > 2. 100% compatible on all systems
> > 3. 100% as perfect as we can make it on our budget.
>
> If you can do this get the hell out of games and write opporating systems.
Of
> course, somehow I have my doubts.
Do you mean "operating" systems? Maybe you should get the hell off Usenet and
learn to spell.
> > This is not vapourware, this is the ultimate RPG. It is being delayed
> > because it is getting better by the hour with what amounts to very small
> > tweaks and changes.
>
> If anyone wants a good laugh, look back at cleve's posts over the past eight
> months as he explains that Grimoire will be just a little while longer. Go
> back far enough and you'll even catch him complaining about companies that
> announce games to far in advance and do not deliver. Of course, I'm sure
the
> irony of this passes right over certain people's heads (probably the same
> sort of people who retroactively revise their statements on releasing their
> game to explain why it is so late and that they are still god's gift to
> gaming).
>
Joel, do you live with your parents? Have you ever kissed a girl? Do you get
into violent arguments at work over whether or not the Klingons were, in
fact, capable of hearing sounds beneath the normal threshold ... then get out
the Star Trek companion and try to look up some technical info to prove it?
If Superman and Captain Kirk got in a fight, who would win? Have you ever had
a wet dream with complex sexual symbolism about Leonard Nimoy? Do you go
roller skating alone frequently and do the "Macarena" when it comes on? Have
you spent hours carefully cutting out pictures of Jenny Garth from magazines
and gluing them into a large collage? Do you think of $24,000 a year as
"serious money?" Did you camp out in a sleeping bag to get early tickets for
the Megadeth concert? When was the last time you had a good, hot shower? Do
you feel a ponytail makes a man look more masculine, like Steven Seagal? Do
you have a lifetime gold member subscription to MINIATURE HOBBYIST? Is your
garage/apartment decorated with huge posters of ABBA and THE MAN FROM
U.N.C.L.E.? Do you get livid and angry whenever somebody suggests that the
Addams family movie was better than the old series? Do you find yourself
fascinated with rare issue models of Pez dispensers?
Neil Fradkin
cl...@ans.com.au wrote:
>
> In article <6ijjbm$72p$1...@goanna.cs.rmit.edu.au>#1/1,
> p...@cs.rmit.edu.au (Paul Francis Gilbert) wrote:
> >
> > I have to say that the all-time greatest vapourware of all is Grimoire by
> > Lord Steve (who used to post in this newsgroup). Supposed to be the
> > pen-ultimate RPG game which concentrated on story and play rather than
> flashy
> > graphics, it never got of the ground.
> >
> > You can do a websearch on grimoire to get more info.
> >
>
> and hyped before it even exists, then never even makes it to alpha.
No, it has nothing to do with "alpha", it's a game that never makes it
to market.
> A game
> that makes it to beta testing, then is redesigned due to suggestions during
> the beta test, is not vapourware.
Uh, maybe on your planet, but here on earth, a game that is not
available to the public almost a year after the initial planned release
is most certianly vaporware.
> It's damn good software development.
Hmm, missing deadlines by almost a year is good software development?
I'll be sure to tell my boss that.
> Grimoire is now a second generation product and it was never even released as
> a first generation product.
In other words, you're saying that it's vaporware, and now "grimoire
2.0" is soon to be released. Something that was never released is the
exact definition of vaporware, that's for clearing that up.
> Basically, when we release it, we want it to be:
>
> 1. 100% bug free
> 2. 100% compatible on all systems
> 3. 100% as perfect as we can make it on our budget.
That's wonderful, but it still does not change the fact that you
advertised it as being available almost a year ago and the market has
absolutely nothing in it's hands.
> This is not vapourware, this is the ultimate RPG.
Until is out, it's nothing, much less the "ultimate rpg".
> It is being delayed because
> it is getting better by the hour with what amounts to very small tweaks and
> changes.
Hmm, is dosen't speak to your self proclaimed skill that "very small
tweaks and changes" are taking months upon months to complete.
joelm...@geocities.com
In article <6io044$k36$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>#1/1,
cl...@ans.com.au wrote:
>
> In article <6ina29$dqu$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>#1/1,
> joelm...@geocities.com wrote:
> > >
> > > 2. 100% compatible on all systems
> > > 3. 100% as perfect as we can make it on our budget.
> >
> Of
> > course, somehow I have my doubts.
>
> Do you mean "operating" systems? Maybe you should get the hell off Usenet
> and learn to spell.
Didn't your parents ever tell you spelling flames were bad form?
>
> > > This is not vapourware, this is the ultimate RPG. It is being delayed
> > > because it is getting better by the hour with what amounts to very small
> > > tweaks and changes.
> >
> > If anyone wants a good laugh, look back at cleve's posts over the past
> > eight months as he explains that Grimoire will be just a little while
> > longer. Go back far enough and you'll even catch him complaining about
> > companies that announce games to far in advance and do not deliver. Of
> > course, I'm sure the irony of this passes right over certain people's
> > heads (probably the same sort of people who retroactively revise their
> > statements on releasing their game to explain why it is so late and that >
> they are still god's gift to gaming).
> >
>
> Joel, do you live with your parents?
Yes, but I own half the house so I think I have a legitimate reason to stay.
> Have you ever kissed a girl?
Yes.
> Do you get into violent arguments at work over whether or not the Klingons
> were, in fact, capable of hearing sounds beneath the normal threshold ...
> then get out the Star Trek companion and try to look up some technical info
> to prove it?
I hate Star Trek.
> If Superman and Captain Kirk got in a fight, who would win?
The Roman Legions.
> Have you ever had a wet dream with complex sexual symbolism about Leonard
> Nimoy?
No.
> Do you go roller skating alone frequently and do the "Macarena" when it
> comes on?
What's the Macarena?
> Have you spent hours carefully cutting out pictures of Jenny Garth from
> magazines and gluing them into a large collage?
Who's Jenny Garth?
> Do you think of $24,000 a year as "serious money?"
No, but you seem to think that it will fund about 38.7 computer games.
> Did you camp out in a sleeping bag to get early tickets for
> the Megadeth concert?
Again, who's Megadeth?
> When was the last time you had a good, hot shower?
About ten minutes ago.
> Do you feel a ponytail makes a man look more masculine, like Steven Seagal?
Ah ha, finally someone I do know through his consistant low quality films.
And, I don't see what hair has to do with anything (unless you are obsessed
with long hair due to a lack of it).
> Do you have a lifetime gold member subscription to MINIATURE HOBBYIST?
Didn't know it existed.
> Is your garage/apartment decorated with huge posters of ABBA and THE MAN
> FROM U.N.C.L.E.?
No on U.N.C.L.E., and who or what is ABBA?
> Do you get livid and angry whenever somebody suggests that the
> Addams family movie was better than the old series?
Why should I care?
> Do you find yourself fascinated with rare issue models of Pez dispensers?
Mmm... Chalk-a-riffic.
Let me ask you a few questions now. Do you ever jump to conclusions about
people you never met in discussion groups? Have you been consistantly
bragging and promising without delivering diddly-squat? Are you trying to
drive as many customers away as possible? Are you capable of responding to
critisism in anything near a civilized manner? And finally don't you think
that "companies that advertise games years in advance of having anything
actually running (Like Wizardry 8 from Sir-Tech) and trying to fool the
public into thinking they have something working when in reality they are
just trying to scope out the market for a response to see if anybody will
buy their crappy half-baked idea is complete chicanery and a scam"?
Joel Mathis, who now that he's had his shot won't both responding to the
inevitable reply about how awful he is
And if anyone cares the quote is Cleve (of course) in
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic on November 14, 1997 in a thread called "Re:
Ah, Beautiful Silence (BC3K)".
Geoffrey Stratton
joelm...@geocities.com wrote:
snip
: If anyone wants a good laugh, look back at cleve's posts over the past eight
: months as he explains that Grimoire will be just a little while longer. Go
: back far enough and you'll even catch him complaining about companies that
: announce games to far in advance and do not deliver. Of course, I'm sure the
: irony of this passes right over certain people's heads (probably the same
: sort of people who retroactively revise their statements on releasing their
: game to explain why it is so late and that they are still god's gift to
: gaming).
No, the problem is that Cleve has been trapped by his own provocative
self-promotion campaign, if he releases the game in a buggy state he
will be burned in effigy just like Derek was. There are a lot of people
not "getting" his marketing tactics who are predisposed to dislike
Grimoire. The demo will actively have to change their minds instead of
merely making a good impression on them as per normal shareware, but a lot
of the detractors will download Grimoire out of curiosity. I'm sure
Cleve figures the exposure he's earned for himself offsets the ruffled
feathers, and I'd agree given the amount of air time the game still
receives here.
It's the game that counts, and I'm willing to wait for the finished
product before passing final judgement on this episode. RPGs have been
mired in convention way too long, and I think Grimoire will be good even
though its designer is the Axl Rose of the gaming industry -- "By the way,
I'm going to be three hours late for the show tonight...what the f**k are
you going to do about it?"
-Geoff
: Joel Mathis
:
: -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
Michael Beurskens
spaceboy wrote:
>
> I'm currently doing a little research for an article about vapourware
> and would appreciate any assistance you can offer.
> What I want to know is this - can you remember any games that were
> announced, previewed by game mags or online, and yet never actually
> released?
> It doesn't matter how old the game is, I'm interested in anything you
> can come up with. Just reply here (and please email me as well) with the
> game's title and publisher and any other information that may prove
> useful.
> Thanks in advance.
>
> spaceboy
What about Bard's Tale IV? It was rumored to be one of the most
expensive games ever developed at Interplay and they were working on it
for several years when they suddenly decided to drop it (It was supposed
to show everyone that they knew how to make the best RPG after all, had
enormous maps, great VGA graphics, etc.). There were quite a few
previews here some years ago...
Michael
Rob Merritt
> that makes it to beta testing, then is redesigned due to suggestions during
Bullshit..... Its an endless chain of featuritis. An idea from a game
is born. Then its annouced and hype. A few months later, they decide
to start programming it. Then it reaches beta and the testers find
that the game doesn't live up to the hype. So they delay it to add
some more features. Feature, upon feature keeps getting added to a
game that is almost in a beta state for years. Its hyped more, movies
come out, and hundreds of "exlusive" previews are paraded in front of
consumers. Finally the company is about to go under. So, the game
isn't released, it escapes. Its horrorable buggy and unplayable for a
good six months to a year. Then, right before they release the patch
that will fix the game, they decide to sell it as a Deluxe version.
That is Vaporware too.
Rob Merritt
My Might and Magic page:http://www.jagunet.com/~robertm/homm.html
My Toy page starring Micronauts and LegoBlocks:http://www.jagunet.com/~robertm/micro.html
William Harris
In article <6in4ta$5oh$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, cl...@ans.com.au says...
>a first generation product. Basically, when we release it, we want it to be:
>
>1. 100% bug free
>2. 100% compatible on all systems
>3. 100% as perfect as we can make it on our budget.
>
Pretty darn close to vaporware.
No software product (other than "hello, world") is 100% bug free.
No software product is 100% compatible on all systems.
#3 is a given for any project. :-)
--
William Harris
Vindicated by Avault Article
Here come the lurkers again, go and join Flieger's Flippers.
On Tue, 05 May 1998 10:08:57 -0600, joelm...@geocities.com wrote:
>In article <6in4ta$5oh$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>#1/1,
> cl...@ans.com.au wrote:
>>
>> Grimoire is not vapourware. Vapourware is a game that is heavily advertised
>> and hyped before it even exists, then never even makes it to alpha. A game
>> that makes it to beta testing, then is redesigned due to suggestions during
>> the beta test, is not vapourware. It's damn good software development.
>> Grimoire is now a second generation product and it was never even released
>> as a first generation product. Basically, when we release it, we want it to
>> be:
>>
>> 1. 100% bug free
>> 2. 100% compatible on all systems
>> 3. 100% as perfect as we can make it on our budget.
>
>If you can do this get the hell out of games and write opporating systems. Of
>course, somehow I have my doubts.
>
>> This is not vapourware, this is the ultimate RPG. It is being delayed
>> because it is getting better by the hour with what amounts to very small
>> tweaks and changes.
>
>If anyone wants a good laugh, look back at cleve's posts over the past eight
>months as he explains that Grimoire will be just a little while longer. Go
>back far enough and you'll even catch him complaining about companies that
>announce games to far in advance and do not deliver. Of course, I'm sure the
>irony of this passes right over certain people's heads (probably the same
>sort of people who retroactively revise their statements on releasing their
>game to explain why it is so late and that they are still god's gift to
>gaming).
>
Heimdall
cl...@ans.com.au schrieb:<snip>
> "serious money?" Did you camp out in a sleeping bag to get early tickets for
> the Megadeth concert? When was the last time you had a good, hot shower? Do
Whats wrong with Megadeath? Maybe you donæ„’ like them, but I do.
So go back to your LP rack and listen to Beethovensæ„€ unfinished.
(He, after all had a serios reason never to finish his work - death)
Chris
Vindicated by Avault Article
Another schnapper head!!
On 6 May 1998 04:50:16 GMT, p...@cs.rmit.edu.au (Paul Francis Gilbert)
wrote:
>lordmarcus*****@bigfoot.com (Vindicated by Avault Article) writes:
>
>>Seventh Sword of Mendor, Vapourware.
>
>Grimoire has got to be the all time great vapourware!
joelm...@geocities.com
In article <3552bec9...@news.newsguy.com>#1/1,
lordmarcus*****@bigfoot.com (Vindicated by Avault Article) wrote:
>
> Here come the lurkers again, go and join Flieger's Flippers.
Do you have any clue what a lurker is?
Its person who consistantly reads a newsgroup, but does not participate with
any discussions. Just so you can use the word correctly next time.
cl...@ans.com.au
In article <354fc100...@news.jagunet.com>#1/1,
rob...@jagunet.com (Rob Merritt) wrote:
> > that makes it to beta testing, then is redesigned due to suggestions
during
> > the beta test, is not vapourware. It's damn good software development.
>
> Bullshit..... Its an endless chain of featuritis. An idea from a game
> is born. Then its annouced and hype. A few months later, they decide
> to start programming it. Then it reaches beta and the testers find
> that the game doesn't live up to the hype. So they delay it to add
> some more features. Feature, upon feature keeps getting added to a
> game that is almost in a beta state for years. Its hyped more, movies
> come out, and hundreds of "exlusive" previews are paraded in front of
> consumers. Finally the company is about to go under. So, the game
Bulls**t yourself, those explanations are from the marketing department,
which you believe verbatim no matter what they put out. You know absolutely
nothing about it except what you read in a press release. Since you worship
corporations as substitute gods, it never occurs to you they might have feet
of clay.
They write the ad copy first about an imaginary program they think might
appeal to somebody somewhere, run them in full page layouts in magazines ...
then they go out into city parks and alleyways recruiting "programmers" off
public benches and from cardboard boxes. They see a guy drinking out of a
brown bag in a dumpster, that is Senior Developer. Somebody gets out of drug
rehab, they kidnap him at the discharge exit gate and make him into Project
Manager. That guy you see at the bus station with a beany cap on passing out
CHICK Christian tracts? That is the Creative Director.
Daggerfraud was not featuritis, neither was Battlespire - it was a bunch of
programmers who stink really, really, REALLY bad. Same goes for Staincheap
and Decline to Blundermountain ... the publicity department, which was
generally more energetic than the programmers there EVER were on any given
day, came up with a slick sounding rationalization about how "featuritis" had
crept into the design phase and this was what caused the problems, delay, etc
... of course you swallowed this unconditionally and assumed that the big
corporations would never have a very simple problem - in general, their
programmers bite. Monsters jiggling like marachi dancers in DTU is not
"featuritis" - it is programmers who cannot do correct fixed point math to
determine the plane of a polygon that a mobile object should rest upon.
Simple. I don't need to see the code to know exactly what is and what is not
happening there - that engine looks like experiments I did many years ago
before I learned how height mapping works and how once the "monster" changes
planes, you do not recompute the Y axis dynamically, you keep the first value
you found until the value underneath that represents the distance off the
zero axis on the polygon surface changes. My experiments years ago jiggled
the same way as DTU before I learned this.
It almost looks like these sad boys were using collision detection to stick
the monsters onto the polygons, which is such a slappy idea it does not even
warrant discussion. I would guess they were shifting pixels down until they
hit a surface, then deducting -1 on the next test if a surface was detected,
so the monsters vibrate eternally trapped like bugs on flypaper.
> isn't released, it escapes. Its horrorable buggy and unplayable for a
> good six months to a year. Then, right before they release the patch
> that will fix the game, they decide to sell it as a Deluxe version.
> That is Vaporware too.
>
Well, I guess Grimoire would still defy classification according to your
definition, because the only bugs remaining are minor logical bugs. The game
runs on 30 out of 27 test machines right off the CD-ROM if they are VESA 2.0
compliant, and I have personally played a game of approx. 70 hours without
any crash, visual glitch or aberration outside of trivial formatting and
tweaking the math and scenario. But BC3K 1.0 or OUTPOST type bugs are nowhere
to be found. As far as current standards in the game industry go, Grimoire
was finished last year and was a standout in terms of robustness compared to
the majority of games available. But it still was not high enough quality to
please me, or convince me it was ready to be released.
The changes we made were to fix up a great game and make it even better, not
to fix a bad game to make it playable or to satisfy the minimum requirements
to put it into a box and foist it off. We were way ahead of the usual power
curve before we even went into beta testing.
The really great thing about Grimoire is that I am not acting out of
financial desperation like a company, its employees or their investors. I can
make sure the game is right as rain before it leaves to be distributed
throughout the world with my name on it because I have kept a consulting
business running and bringing in capital while working on it. I have investor
pressure to get the game out, but like me they'd rather see it done right and
sell 300,000 copies than done shabby and sell 3000 copies.
Don't quit your day job and you'll always have options ... but if your sole
income is derived from creative work you'll quickly find yourself making
compromises all over the place. Most game companies do not have integrity as
an option - out of sheer necessity and economic reality. You add a bunch of
second-rate no-hoper $30K programmers to the equation and then mix together
with the mythical man-hour and the fantasy about programmers being
interchangeable and you get products like you see on the shelf. Descent To
Undermountain really looks like a committee effort. StoneKeep looks like a
committee on crack cocaine and Daggerfall looks like some sort of apprentice
work therapy for a group of mental patients.
Neil Fradkin
> Well, I guess Grimoire would still defy classification according to your
> definition, because the only bugs remaining are minor logical bugs. The game
> runs on 30 out of 27 test machines right off the CD-ROM if they are VESA 2.0
> compliant, and I have personally played a game of approx. 70 hours without
> any crash, visual glitch or aberration outside of trivial formatting and
> tweaking the math and scenario.
Amazing, the game runs on 30 out of 27 machines! Wow, it runs on more
machines than it was tested on, you supernatural powers never cease to
amaze me (this from a guy who flames someone for a spelling mistake).
Okay, let's give the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant runs on
27 out of 30 machines. So you are saying that the game fails to run on
10% of the machines tested? This would seem like a major problem, and
not minor logical bugs as you claim. A 10% failure rate is quite
miserable and laughable.
Back in april of '97 you claimed the engines were 95% done, so I'll
take your claims of "minor logical bugs" with a whole truckload of salt.
Norwyn Schultze
I remember reading a preview on that one and drooling all over it! At the
time it was going by the name 'M.I.S.T.' for 'My Incredible Superhero
Team'.
Someone should pick up where they left off on that one!
Norwyn Schultze.
Geoffrey Stratton <ez05...@dogbert.ucdavis.edu> wrote in article
<6ilqun$8ng$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu>...
Torfi H Tulinius
dstephen wrote:
> 2 biggest recent vapourware titles are Prey and Unreal.
> Both these were supposed to come out and be quake killers,
> since then quake2 has been worked on and finished and is
> almost "old" now.
> Unreal I guess is coming out this month actually!!!
> Prey seems to never be coming out.
>
> Both these games seem like they are about 3 years late.
>
> Dave
There's an Unreal review in PCGamer (UK) that heaps praises on it. Also says
it is drop dead gorgeous and that the AI makes you drop dead.
KaTT
Jeff Smith
cl...@ans.com.au wrote:
> Joel, do you live with your parents? Have you ever kissed a girl? Do you get
> into violent arguments at work over whether or not the Klingons were, in
> fact, capable of hearing sounds beneath the normal threshold ... then get out
> the Star Trek companion and try to look up some technical info to prove it?
> If Superman and Captain Kirk got in a fight, who would win? Have you ever had
> a wet dream with complex sexual symbolism about Leonard Nimoy? Do you go
> roller skating alone frequently and do the "Macarena" when it comes on? Have
> you spent hours carefully cutting out pictures of Jenny Garth from magazines
> and gluing them into a large collage? Do you think of $24,000 a year as
> "serious money?" Did you camp out in a sleeping bag to get early tickets for
> the Megadeth concert? When was the last time you had a good, hot shower? Do
> you feel a ponytail makes a man look more masculine, like Steven Seagal? Do
> you have a lifetime gold member subscription to MINIATURE HOBBYIST? Is your
> garage/apartment decorated with huge posters of ABBA and THE MAN FROM
> U.N.C.L.E.? Do you get livid and angry whenever somebody suggests that the
> Addams family movie was better than the old series? Do you find yourself
> fascinated with rare issue models of Pez dispensers?
Heh heh heh...What was that!?!
I've never seen someone make such a fool of himself before, ever. It is such a
display of childishness that I am almost impressed that it is the sad work of one
individual.
--
jSmith
"...but then sometimes I speak before I think,"
----------------------------------------------------
ICQ# is 10769367
Email (-SPAMLESS) ai...@SPAMLESSthe-wire.com
Vindicated by Avault Article
Just take the hint join Flieger's Flippers and lurk away to your
hearts content.
On Wed, 06 May 1998 08:53:49 -0600, joelm...@geocities.com wrote:
>In article <3552bec9...@news.newsguy.com>#1/1,
> lordmarcus*****@bigfoot.com (Vindicated by Avault Article) wrote:
>>
>> Here come the lurkers again, go and join Flieger's Flippers.
>
>Do you have any clue what a lurker is?
>
>Its person who consistantly reads a newsgroup, but does not participate with
>any discussions. Just so you can use the word correctly next time.
>
>Joel Mathis
>
>
kenneth...@dscc.dla.mil
Hey, 27 out of 30 is better than what most companies release!
Cleve, if it is that stable, I would say to release it. Some folks will
always have equipment that is out of date (not with the latest drivers, etc)
so you are never going to get 30 out of 30. Thats what a readme.txt file is
for!
Ken
> Amazing, the game runs on 30 out of 27 machines! Wow, it runs on more
> machines than it was tested on, you supernatural powers never cease to
> amaze me (this from a guy who flames someone for a spelling mistake).
>
> Okay, let's give the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant runs on
> 27 out of 30 machines. So you are saying that the game fails to run on
> 10% of the machines tested? This would seem like a major problem, and
> not minor logical bugs as you claim. A 10% failure rate is quite
> miserable and laughable.
>
> Back in april of '97 you claimed the engines were 95% done, so I'll
> take your claims of "minor logical bugs" with a whole truckload of salt.
>
cl...@ans.com.au
In article <3550FFC5...@the-wire.com>#1/1,
Jeff Smith <ai...@SPAMLESSthe-wire.com> wrote:
>
>
> Heh heh heh...What was that!?!
> I've never seen someone make such a fool of himself before, ever. It is
such a
> display of childishness that I am almost impressed that it is the sad work
of one
> individual.
>
Is this some sort of awkardly translated french subtitling? Okay, here is my
response ...
"Henceforth, know as such that I am impressed that such a fool is of such
childishness."
cl...@ans.com.au
In article <6io690$uv7$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>#1/1,
joelm...@geocities.com wrote:
>
> Let me ask you a few questions now. Do you ever jump to conclusions about
> people you never met in discussion groups?
Perhaps, but I think it is fair to say I am accurate 90% of the time. I would
guess that someone, for example, like Mark Asher is not a chronic loser, has
a decent job and can walk down the street without people crossing to avoid
him for fear of the hygienic issues involved.
> Have you been consistantly
> bragging and promising without delivering diddly-squat?
No. During the time I have been redesigning the beta version of Grimoire, I
have also done a few things at my day jobs:
* Wrote a heuristic filing system that learns how to archive files by
observing the user and building a profile of their habits
* Worked at another site on an electronic bank transaction system
* Completed a contract for New South Wales to design a complete database
solution for environmental reports on the rivers in the area
* Used my pathfinding technology to compute the most efficient dispatch
routes for taxicabs in the Sydney area to be used possibly at the 2000
Olympics
None of this has stopped me from completely redoing all the 150+ maps in the
game from scratch, modifying some of the basic subsystems in Grimoire and
rewriting major portions of the interface and code. I'd say that this is
*not* a diddly-squat achievement considering this has all been done at night
between 9 pm and 3 am in the morning. If I was working full-time on Grimoire,
I'd be working on Grimoire 2 right now, not finishing up Grimoire 1.
> Are you trying to
> drive as many customers away as possible?
Somebody needs to tell the customers they should be driven away, they are
piling up so fast in my email box they are eating up my hard drive space. At
last count 19,000 people wanted to be driven away and notified immediately
when they have been driven off.
> Are you capable of responding to
> critisism in anything near a civilized manner?
Why?
> And finally don't you think
> that "companies that advertise games years in advance of having anything
> actually running (Like Wizardry 8 from Sir-Tech) and trying to fool the
> public into thinking they have something working when in reality they are
> just trying to scope out the market for a response to see if anybody will
> buy their crappy half-baked idea is complete chicanery and a scam"?
>
Yeah, I still think that. So what makes you think the screenshots from
Grimoire and the beta test are a carefully coordinated scam to fake up a game
to see if anybody will buy it? My alpha was running in 1996. There was no
fakery involved. The beta was running in 1997.
If I want a screen shot of my game, I press F9. I don't pay some artists to
work for three months to make up a dummy interface in high color, then plop a
shot from a licensed 3D engine framework into the middle and finally paste a
picture of a monster on top of that, then go around telling the public "this
is a screenshot from the pre-alpha of Wizardry 8." Don't you agree that is
lies, damned lies and ... Sir-Tech?
The real question is, do you just want me to put this game up as is, or do
you want me to release it when it is right? In other words, should I be Cleve
Blakemore (most dangerous cowboy on entire planet) or Sir-Tech (shammy sad
hobbled gimpy limpers) or Bethesda (fake-out poseur charlatan pretenders non-
programming pud-whippers) or Interplay (6 million dollars, 200 staff members,
7 years but unfortunately no puzzles, plot, development, architecture or
gameplay)???
I think if I put this game up and it is not 100% spectacular, you'll feel a
lot better that your version of reality is intact and you can go back to
licking the sole leathers of the big 3 poseurs: Sir-Tech, Bethesda,
Interplay. But if it is as good as I say it is, then your eyeballs will bulge
like that of a chronic gout sufferer, you will choke on your own tongue in a
pseudo-seizure triggered by sudden psychological shock and then void the
contents of your bowels so violently into your own pants that a Federal
Detoxification Crew will have to cordon off your study as a chemical disaster
zone. And I like that idea.
Neil Fradkin
> >Grimoire is not vapourware. Vapourware is a game that is heavily advertised
> >and hyped before it even exists, then never even makes it to alpha.
>
> promised?
Actually, halloween was the first delayed date, it was originally
promised on September first.
(from the Grimoire FAQ)
"
When is the demo going to be available?
At the moment, we are planning to release our Alpha 1.16 on April 29th,
1997 at this site for public review and to get some feedback.
The game should be fully functional in all respects. It will feature a
small dungeon and forest area for testers to explore and get some
feeling for the gameplay present in Grimoire.
The public beta should be released in the early part of June, 1997 and
the uncrippled, fully playable shareware version will be available
on the 1st of September in 1997 for anyone to download and play.
How much of the game is finished right now?
The game engines are 95% completed at this time. The artwork is 60%,
sound & music 10%. We are making remarkably rapid progress
and expect to achieve all the deadlines we have set for ourselves. We
are not amateurs at the business of software development and
would not be wasting your time by putting up this web page if we were
less than confident about releasing the game on time. We despise
developers who miss deadlines and promote games before they are even
certain if they can finish them probably even more than you do.
"
Neil Fradkin
> Hey, 27 out of 30 is better than what most companies release!
Simply not true. While some software is released in a miserable state,
it is not the majority, and even bug ridden software will usually at
least start up on 99% of machines. A 10% failure rate would be
absolutely unacceptable to any professional.
cl...@ans.com.au
In article <355085...@secant.com>,
nfra...@secant.com wrote:
>
> Amazing, the game runs on 30 out of 27 machines! Wow, it runs on more
> machines than it was tested on, you supernatural powers never cease to
> amaze me (this from a guy who flames someone for a spelling mistake).
>
> Okay, let's give the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant runs on
> 27 out of 30 machines. So you are saying that the game fails to run on
> 10% of the machines tested? This would seem like a major problem, and
> not minor logical bugs as you claim. A 10% failure rate is quite
> miserable and laughable.
>
Neil, you should consider a career as a celebrity double for Newman on
Seinfeld, they are going to be in huge demand after the last episode. I
cannot read your posts without visualizing you red as a beet, sweating and
screaming as you speak.
Neil Fradkin
cl...@ans.com.au wrote:
>
> In article <355085...@secant.com>,
> nfra...@secant.com wrote:
> >
> > Amazing, the game runs on 30 out of 27 machines! Wow, it runs on more
> > machines than it was tested on, you supernatural powers never cease to
> > amaze me (this from a guy who flames someone for a spelling mistake).
> >
> > Okay, let's give the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant runs on
> > 27 out of 30 machines. So you are saying that the game fails to run on
> > 10% of the machines tested? This would seem like a major problem, and
> > not minor logical bugs as you claim. A 10% failure rate is quite
> > miserable and laughable.
> >
>
> Neil, you should consider a career as a celebrity double for Newman on
> Seinfeld, they are going to be in huge demand after the last episode.
Par for the course, ignore everything said, and throw in a lame little
insult worthy of a second grader.
> I cannot read your posts without visualizing you red as a beet, sweating and
> screaming as you speak.
I would suggest that you stop looking in the mirror when posting then.
I make valid points in my posts, you cry and lash out like a wounded
child in yours. Every post like this simply makes it more obvious you
haven't two brain cells to rub together in that swelled head of yours.
Neil Fradkin
cl...@ans.com.au wrote:
>
> In article <6io690$uv7$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>#1/1,
> joelm...@geocities.com wrote:
> >
> > Let me ask you a few questions now. Do you ever jump to conclusions about
> > people you never met in discussion groups?
>
> Perhaps, but I think it is fair to say I am accurate 90% of the time.
Of course this is based on nothing but the fantasy world in cleve's
head. After all, I'm supposed to look like Neuman from Sienfled, even
though I'm 6'2, 170lbs, blond haired and blue eyed, just about the
opposite of Neuman in every way. (OTOH, the only description of cleve
were ever saw sounded a bit like him).
> > Have you been consistantly
> > bragging and promising without delivering diddly-squat?
>
> No. During the time I have been redesigning the beta version of Grimoire, I
> have also done a few things at my day jobs:
>
> * Wrote a heuristic filing system that learns how to archive files by
> observing the user and building a profile of their habits
> * Worked at another site on an electronic bank transaction system
> * Completed a contract for New South Wales to design a complete database
> solution for environmental reports on the rivers in the area
> * Used my pathfinding technology to compute the most efficient dispatch
> routes for taxicabs in the Sydney area to be used possibly at the 2000
> Olympics
Yeah, we all believe this, sure. Given your complete lack of ability to
tell the truth in every post you have ever made, I seriously doubt that
while not completeing grimoire you did a single thing but perhaps rant
and rave about the canadian communists to the pigeons in the park (this
has to be true, after all, I'm 90% accurate when making up stuff about
people I have never met).
> None of this has stopped me from completely redoing all the 150+ maps in the
> game from scratch, modifying some of the basic subsystems in Grimoire and
> rewriting major portions of the interface and code. I'd say that this is
> *not* a diddly-squat achievement considering this has all been done at night
> between 9 pm and 3 am in the morning. If I was working full-time on Grimoire,
> I'd be working on Grimoire 2 right now, not finishing up Grimoire 1.
Game is eight months late and counting, whatever you did or did not do
amounts to diddly squat since there is nothing out but your constant
boasts about how great the game is. Greatest RPG ever, that's why it
required an almost complete rewrite months after it's intended released.
>
> > Are you trying to
> > drive as many customers away as possible?
>
> Somebody needs to tell the customers they should be driven away, they are
> piling up so fast in my email box they are eating up my hard drive space. At
> last count 19,000 people wanted to be driven away and notified immediately
> when they have been driven off.
Oh my! You've been hypeing the game for more than a year and you got
19,000 inquiries, that's absolutely pathetic. Really cleve, if you are
going to make up a number, at least make it impressive. In the internet
world 19,000 requests over a couple of years is a grain of sand on the
beach.
> > Are you capable of responding to
> > critisism in anything near a civilized manner?
>
> Why?
Uh, maybe because that's what most well adjusted humans are capable of
doing? Does your superhuman brain overload with the simple task of
conversation. Obviously thing like telling the truth about anything
cause an outright system failure. Usually when one surpasses the mental
age of 10, they have outgrown flying into a tantrum whenever presented
with the slightest critisism, you seen to have a long way to go towards
that goal.
>
> > And finally don't you think
> > that "companies that advertise games years in advance of having anything
> > actually running (Like Wizardry 8 from Sir-Tech) and trying to fool the
> > public into thinking they have something working when in reality they are
> > just trying to scope out the market for a response to see if anybody will
> > buy their crappy half-baked idea is complete chicanery and a scam"?
> >
>
> Yeah, I still think that. So what makes you think the screenshots from
> Grimoire and the beta test are a carefully coordinated scam to fake up a game
> to see if anybody will buy it? My alpha was running in 1996. There was no
> fakery involved. The beta was running in 1997.
And the game still isn't out well into 1998.
Hey cleve, go reread you original statements about the release, and
then the first few delays (I especially loved your "out on halloween"
post). Maybe you'd care for a little humble pie with that crow.
Castellan
cl...@ans.com.au writes:
<snip>
>The real question is, do you just want me to put this game up as is, or do
>you want me to release it when it is right? In other words, should I be Cleve
>Blakemore (most dangerous cowboy on entire planet) or Sir-Tech (shammy sad
>hobbled gimpy limpers) or Bethesda (fake-out poseur charlatan pretenders non-
>programming pud-whippers) or Interplay (6 million dollars, 200 staff members,
>7 years but unfortunately no puzzles, plot, development, architecture or
>gameplay)???
Marcus! Can it be...?
--- ---
Douglas L. Erickson - ECN Computer Publications and Training Specialist
mail to: dou...@mailhost.ecn.ou.edu --- http://www.ecn.ou.edu/~douglas
--- ECN does not, in any way, sponsor or endorse my rabid opinions. ---
-- "No-one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence --
-- of the American public." - H. L. Mencken --
Vindicated by Avault Article
You should join Theodore and the other Flieger's Flippers and have
that premature ejaculation problem seen to.
On Thu, 07 May 1998 11:25:41 -0400, Neil Fradkin <nfra...@secant.com>
wrote:
Paul Francis Gilbert
cl...@ans.com.au writes:
Man oh man, I certainly didn't mean to start a flamewar about Grimoire, but
then again, knowing Lord Dracon (or whatever the hell he calls himself this
week to avoid being killfiled) and Cleve, I guess I shouldn't be surprised,
given their past track record against Daggerfall ;-)
>Well, I guess Grimoire would still defy classification according to your
>definition, because the only bugs remaining are minor logical bugs. The game
>runs on 30 out of 27 test machines right off the CD-ROM if they are VESA 2.0
Man, that's some program! I can't remember the last time a program was able
to run on more machines than it was actually tested on ;-) Or am I just
reading it wrong?
--
Paul Gilbert | p...@yallara.cs.rmit.edu.au (The DreamMaster)
Bach App Sci, Bach Eng | The opinions expressed are my own, all my own, and
Year 5, RMIT Melbourne | as such will contain no references to small furry
Australia | creatures from Alpha Centauri.
Franc Kaos
On Thu, 07 May 1998 09:56:11 -0600, cl...@ans.com.au wrote:
>* Used my pathfinding technology to compute the most efficient dispatch
>routes for taxicabs in the Sydney area to be used possibly at the 2000
>Olympics
Apparently they're having problems creating pathfinding tech for some
game of theirs; Ultima: Ascension (there might even be a job in it).
Franc Kaos ~ Cheers
Hey! If you're passing thru'... ~ (www.netcomuk.co.uk/~kaos)
MadManATW
>The game runs on 30 out of 27 test machines