My Straight household vs. my Gay Household

[lac...@webtv.net]

The Fundementalist Christian-Right says that being Heterosexual and
living in a heterosexual household is much better and much more happier
and fulfilling than being Gay and living in a Gay Household.

To dispute their claims, I am going to get personal and describe my two
households, the straight household that I grew up in, and the Gay
household that I now Live in.

- In my straight, heterosexual household, the household that I grew up
in, there was alot of yelling, screaming, argueing, cussing, and
furnishings being thrown around. In my straight household, I constantly
heard my father calling my mother a "big fat Bitch", my mother was
constantly telling me that my Father is a no good crazy piece of s--t,
and that I was going to grow up to be just like him. In my straight
household, I can't even remember any moments where my parents said
anything good to each other, they NEVER called each other "honey" "dear"
or "sweetie". I dont't even remember seeing my parents kiss. I NEVER saw
them hold hands, cuddle on the couch, or any of that other "family"
fantasy stuff that they show on television. They spent most of their time
sleeping in seperate bedrooms. In my straight househld, we never had
barbecues, or birthday parties, we never went out bowling, rollerskating,
on picnics or to disneyland or Six Flags Great Adventure. We never ate
dinner at the table, instead we ate in seperate rooms with TV trays. In
my Straight household, we didn't celebrate holidays, we didn't decorate
out house with a Christmas tree in December, easter eggs in April, flags
in July, or with gobblins in October. And on Christmas, we didn't get as
many presents as other kids did. out presents were not under a tree,
instead they were kept in a corner of the Den until Dec 25th. In my
straight household, Thanksgiving was just another day. we didn't bake a
big turkey and have relatives over (only once we went to a relatives
house when I was very small) And on Independence day, while other
families were barbecueing and eating outside with relatives, we just ate
in our seperate rooms like any other day. We went to a Pentacostal
church for a little while (for about 2 months), but it didn't do anything
to better the situation. During my teen years in my Straight household,
the police were constantly over my house to settle arguements and
disputes. My older half-brother (my mothers other son) became involved in
physical fights between himself and my father. One time A cop tried to
break up a fight between my Father & Brother and the cop slid on a puddle
of motor oil that was spilled in the garage. Then several weeks later,
the cop who slid was trying to sue us for damages. He claim he hurt
himself when he slid. He wanted to sue us for over $200,000 and his wife
wanted to sue us for $5,000 because she claimed that her husband couldn't
"perform" in the bed. My younger brother began to act out in school and
around his friends, he began to yell, scream, and throw things in school.
He was later put into a child psychiatric ward for several months and
given drugs to "cure" his "condition" My parents later divorced, but the
problems didn't end there. We were constantly going to family court over
Child support disputes. I was being dragged back & forth to court until
my 21st birthday. The problems didn't end there, my mother couldn't
forget about the past, so she kept reminding me about everything that my
Father did to her, and kept telling me that I'm just like him. Everytime
I did something wrong, or made the tinyest mistake, she kept on tellig me
"You're just like your g-d d-mn Father. I eventually got sick of the
verbal abuse and moved out.

- Now I live in a Gay household with my boyfriend/lover/companion (or
whatever you wanna call him) We have been together for over 5 years. In
my Gay household, there is NO yelling, NO screaming, no namecalling,
there are no cops coming over to my Gay household to settle arguements.
In my Gay household, we don't argue, when we disagree, we talk it out and
listen to each other and exchange ideas instead of YELLING, & SCREAMING,
and namecalling like my parents did in my Straight household. In my Gay
householdThere is NO VIOLENCE, we DO NOT throw furnishings around. In my
Gay household, me and my significant other show affection, the kind of
affection that my parents NEVER showed infront of me. In my Gay
household, we go out on picnics, bowling, rollerblading. We have
barbecues in our back yard and invite other Gay couples and some straight
couples to dine with us. In my Gay household, we celebrate birthdays,
and holidays, including Christmas, and yes, on occasion we even go to
church (a Gay friendly Church of course) On Thanksgivingn Day in my Gay
household, we cook a BIG turkey, along with macaroni, potato salad,
candyapple, rice, mashed potatoes, yams, stuffing, and a sweet potatoe
pie, and we have our friends over My Gay household is quiet and
peaceful.

Now, which household would you rather live in??

Some Fundementalist critics may be saying that my enviroment growing up
may have caused me to be Gay. If that true, then why is my younger
brother straight??? My younger brother was much more affected by the
situation than I was. He acted out, became depressed and ended up in an
institution, not me. He threatened to kill himself, not me. I was cool,
When my parents argued, I put on my walkman headphones and tried to
ignore it, I went out for a walk, or stayed at a friends house. I had
hope of a better future, I knew that the yelling & screaming wasn't going
to last forever. I have Gay friends that grew up in the "Donna Reed"
"Leave it to Beaver" "Cosby" types of homes (the small few that still
exist today), why are they Gay? My lover/boyfriend/companion even grew
up in the ideal Television household like "Leave it to Beaver", WHY IS HE
GAY???!!!

Also, the Fundementalist blame the Gay & Lesbian community for the
breakdown of the family. Now, I DO NOT remember any Gay or Lesbian person
or group telling my parents to argue, or forcing them to argue, yell,
scream, cuss, or throw and break things. - Do the Fundementalist's
believe that gay people cause straight people to argue. -Do Gay people
cause straight men to beat their wives??? -Do gay people cause straight
people to cheat on their spouces??? -Do Gay people cause straight people
to go to divorce court and divorce their spouces??? -Do Gay people cause
fathers to abandon their children and not pay child support???

The Fundementalist should think again defore they blame the Gay & Lesbian
community for the degregation of the American Family!

_______________________________________________ NO PRIVATE REPLIES. Post
ALL replies in PUBLIC! E-mail is blocked to prevent spammers. Plus if you
have nothing to hide, POST IT IN PUBLIC!!!
________________________________________________

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet

[todd]

Praise God
You have come past a very difficult childhood to become a very
functional adult. Your homosexuality has nothing to do with your up
bringing. The fact that somewhere and some how you developed values that
allow you to have a healthy relationship is wonderful.
Many people, not just fundlementalist, have a misconception that gay
people cause and have unhealthy relationships. That is truely wrong and
no statistic supports that.
Anyone here that can find a statistic that has not been done by a far
right organization and that would stand up to accepted practices for
gathering data, please post it. I would like to see.

[lexKY]

lac...@webtv.net wrote:
>
> The Fundementalist Christian-Right says that being Heterosexual and
> living in a heterosexual household is much better and much more happier
> and fulfilling than being Gay and living in a Gay Household.
>
> To dispute their claims, I am going to get personal and describe my two
> households, the straight household that I grew up in, and the Gay
> household that I now Live in.

I would like to congradulate you on surviving your developmental years
and your sucessful relationship & happiness. All to many of us have been
where you once were. The survival has made our current lives so much
more richer & blessed. It is a touching story, well told and I thank you
for sharing it.

Walt.

[Apuleius]

lac...@webtv.net wrote to and alt.politics.homosexuality:

== physical fights between himself and my father. One time A cop tried to
== break up a fight between my Father & Brother and the cop slid on a puddle
== of motor oil that was spilled in the garage. Then several weeks later,

A genuine greased pig.

== the cop who slid was trying to sue us for damages. He claim he hurt
== himself when he slid. He wanted to sue us for over $200,000 and his wife
== wanted to sue us for $5,000 because she claimed that her husband couldn't
== "perform" in the bed. My younger brother began to act out in school and

Did he get anything.? Did his wife get anything, or is she still
horney?

== "You're just like your g-d d-mn Father. I eventually got sick of the
== verbal abuse and moved out.

My grandfather was apparently a drunkard and occasional wife beater.
My mother told us how she once cracked a crockery bowl over his head
when he was beating grandmother. From what I remember of grandma's
extremely sour disposition, I don't know how much of the blame should
be allocated to him, but perhaps she was soured only through her
marriage to him. He lived separately from grandma, and I think nobody
in the family had any contact with him for perhaps 40 years, not even
going to his funeral. The only "contact" I remember mentioned was that
once somebody drove through the neighborhood where he was reported to
live and saw him sitting on the front steps of a house.

In illustration of grandma's sourness, when one of my aunts, who was
in the navy, was made pregnant by a sailor, my mother and an aunt
living on the farm wanted her to have the child and offered to help
raise it. Grandma and two other aunts insisted she get rid of it.
After getting rid of the child (not abortion, but adoption), the aunt
went into the Naval hospital for mental problems, and she's been
afflicted with them from time to time for forty years afterward. The
aunts who insisted whe give up the child were, incidentally, great
fans of Rush Limbaugh and Ronald Reagan. Grandma moved in with us and
was so sour that she refused to eat my mother's cooking, calling it
"crap" as I recall.

==
== Some Fundementalist critics may be saying that my enviroment growing up
== may have caused me to be Gay. If that true, then why is my younger
== brother straight??? My younger brother was much more affected by the
== situation than I was. He acted out, became depressed and ended up in an
== institution, not me. He threatened to kill himself, not me. I was cool,

I was rather surprised when I learned that my brother was gay, for he
always seemed to have plenty of female friends in high school. The
only real family problem we've had in that was from a brother-in-law.
I'm not sure what suspicions he had, but at some point when AIDS
hysteria was pretty high, we suddenly found out that we weren't
invited to the traditional Christman celebration one year. (That same
brother-in-law also stopped having my Navy aunt and her black female
roomate over, deciding he didn't want any blacks in his house.) Then
his son came out as gay. I don't know what came about that he
disclosed it, but it sure changed my brother-in-law's attitude. We
don't talk about sexuality, but we're again invited to family
functions at his house. (He still doesn't want blacks in his house,
however. Incidentally, he's a fundamentalist Lutheran and very active
in his church.)

Gays pop up in surprising places. My niece, the bigot's daughter (and
my goddaughter), married a guy who has a gay brother. His brother was
had a high position in the operation of a New York modern dance group,
in which he danced at one time.

My brother once spotted a different uncle going into a well known gay
tearoom in downtown Milwaukee, and I remember how "friendly" that
uncle would get due to the sherry he drank while he cooked holiday
dinners to which our family was invited. (And they always told us our
poor aunt only had one child because of "back trouble.")

As for my Navy aunt and her black roommate, I can't say there's
anything whatever sexual in their relationship, though they've been
living together over 20 years. There certainly aren't any indications
that it's anything more than friendship. In addition to my aunt's
bouts of mental trouble, her roommate has quirks, and perhaps they
just complement each other and get along well together, putting up
with each other's faults in a way that no completely "normal" roomate
would.

Fundamentalism wants the world to be a combination of Ozzie and
Harriet and Lawrence Welk, but the real world just doesn't work that
way.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

[lac...@webtv.net]

In article <345242ae...@omnifest.uwm.edu>,
alg...@Somnifest.uwm.edu (Apuleius) wrote:
>
> lac...@webtv.net wrote

>
> > physical fights between himself and my
> > father. One time A cop tried to break up a
> > fight between my Father & Brother and the
> > cop slid on a puddle of motor oil that was
> > spilled in the garage. Then several weeks
> > later,

> A genuine greased pig.

> > the cop who slid was trying to sue us for
> > damages. He claim he hurt himself when he
> > slid. He wanted to sue us for over $200,000 > > and his wife wanted to sue us for $5,000
> > because she claimed that her husband
> > couldn't "perform" in the bed.

> Did he get anything.? Did his wife get
> anything?

No, apparently the cop and his wife must have given up because we never
heard anything about the lawsuit or anything else from them again. We
went to court once and there was some testimony, but we were never called
back. That was over 15 years ago.

[Gordon Charrick]

Obviously, your parents weren't "real christians". :-)

--
Gordon Charrick DEL...@smart.netETE(delete the DEL and ETE) Atheist #516
http://www.smart.net/~gmc

WARNING: Any junk email advertising useless crap not caught by my filter
will be forwarded to your ISP with a request for action.

[lac...@webtv.net]

In article <6326se$2kf$1...@news.smart.net>,

g...@DELsmart.netETE wrote:
>
> Obviously, your parents weren't "real
christians". :-)

Most aren't.

[Shawn Hicks]

lac...@webtv.net wrote:

[snipped...]

Please do not post this stuff to soc.motts. It does not belong
in this group.

Show a little courtesy and start your flamewars somewhere else.

Followups re-directed out of:

alt.journalism.gay-press,
soc.motss,
alt.christnet.christianlife,
alt.religion.christian,
alt.society.conservatism

=========================================
Shawn Hicks
http://www.wizard.com/~balistik

[lac...@webtv.net]

In this article I am going to expose the TRUTH about the Heterosexual
lifestyle. I grew up in a Heterosexual household with straight
heterosexual parents and siblings and I saw the inside truth about the
heterosexual lifestyle.

For me, It was a very horrific experience and I am going to tell my
story and expose the TRUTH about the Straight lifestyle and the
heterosexual agenda.

In the Heterosexual household that I grew up in, there was alot of

yelling, screaming, argueing, cussing, and furnishings being thrown

around. In this straight household, I constantly heard my father calling

my mother a "big fat Bitch", my mother was constantly telling me that my
Father is a no good crazy piece of s--t, and that I was going to grow up

to be just like him. In this heterosexual household, I can't even

remember any moments where my parents said anything good to each other,

they NEVER called each other "honey" "dear" or "sweetie", that was a
fantasy that you only see on TV. I don't even remember seeing my parents

kiss. I NEVER saw them hold hands, cuddle on the couch, or any of that

other "family" fantasy stuff that the heterosexual doctrinists show on

television. They spent most of their time sleeping in seperate bedrooms.

In the heterosexual househld I grew up in, we barely had backyard
barbecues, and when we did, there was alot of yelling and screaming about
how to cook, what to cook, the tempature of the fire, etc... We never
went out bowling, rollerskating, or on picnics. We barely ate dinner at
the table together like the heterosexuals do on TV,instead we ate in
seperate rooms on TV trays. During my teen years in this Straight
household I grew up in, the police were constantly over my house to

settle arguements and disputes. My older half-brother (my mothers other
son) became involved in physical fights between himself and my father.
One time A cop tried to break up a fight between my Father & Brother and
the cop slid on a puddle of motor oil that was spilled in the garage.
Then several weeks later, the cop who slid was trying to sue us for
damages. He claim he hurt himself when he slid. He wanted to sue us for
over $200,000 and his wife wanted to sue us for $5,000 because she
claimed that her husband couldn't "perform" in the bed. My younger
brother began to act out in school and around his friends, he began to
yell, scream, and throw things in school. He was later put into a child
psychiatric ward for several months and given drugs to "cure" his

"condition" My heterosexual parents later divorced, but the problems

didn't end there. We were constantly going to family court over Child
support disputes. I was being dragged back & forth to court until my 21st
birthday. The problems didn't end there, my mother couldn't forget about
the past, so she kept reminding me about everything that my Father did to
her, and kept telling me that I'm just like him. Everytime I did

something wrong, or made the tinyest mistake, she kept on telling me

"You're just like your g-d d-mn Father. I eventually got sick of the
verbal abuse and moved out.

The agenda of the heterosexual in todays world is for the young hetero
men to have sex with as many good-looking women as they can and satisfy
their sexual pervertion. In other words, the young Heterosexual men just
wanna "get some p-ssy", "get laid", "hit the skins" and "knock boots".
And if they get any of these young girls pregnant, many of these young
heterosexual men will dump the girl they impregnated and run away without
supporting the children they created. or they will tell the girl they
impregnated to have an abortion. At other times, they will deny that they
are the father. When a heterosexual gets older and he does decide to get
married, he has to have a fling with a stripper before he walks down the
isle with his fiance because after the heterosexual man gets married, he
believes that he will "loose his freedom" Many Heterosexual men get
tired of having sex with the same woman that they are with and at times
will cheat on them with another woman, usually trying not to get caught
while other Heterosexual men will admit to their wife that he is tired of
the same old thing in bed every night and divorces her and gets another
woman to marry. We see this example with Donald Trump who dumped Ivana
because she was getting "too old" for him and married Marla Maples. Now
marla is getting too old for Mr. Trump and now he needs something new so
he's divorcing her. Although he (Donald) has the money to get any woman
he wants and the money to get a quick divorce like other heterosexual
millionares and heterosexual movie stars. Most heterosexual men can't
afford quick divorces like the Donald but they will take any necessary
steps to get rid of the "old bag" or "fat sap" they are married to in
order to get a new young "sexy" babe. And in turn, many heterosexual
women will take steps to try to get rid of the "no good trash" that they
are married to so that they can get themselves a "young rich hunk" Also,
many other heterosexuals want to get divorced, but they only stay
together for the children so that they can also decieve other people and
themselves by living in a lie and fulfilling the fantasy they see on TV.
Many of these Heterosexual couples wait until the youngest child turns 21
before divorcing. Heterosexual men and woman make vows in churches
everyday all over the world vowing to keep each other for better or for
worse, richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health, till death do
them part, but over 60% of these heterosexuals are lying. The divorce
rate and the reasons for divorce prove that the heterosexual lifestyle is
a very unfulfilling one. Many heterosexuals divorce their spouces because
they lost their job, gain weight, lost muscle, go bald, loose attraction,
can't perform in bed (which proves that the heterosexual lifestyle is
about sex). Many heterosexuals have even divorced because of tragedies
such as car accidents, a childs death or when one has cancer. The
heterosexuals and their lifestyle also have a very negative affect on
children. Heterosexuals don't mind arguing, screaming, yelling, cursing,
and even getting physical and beating the other spouce in front of the
children that they are raising usually causing the children to have
long-term psychological affects. Heterosexuals who also lie about their
children being so-called "blessings" and "precious gifts" tell their
children that they are "brats", "rugrats", "a pain in the neck", "a pain
in the butt", and at times, even tell their children that they wish they
were never born. Many Heterosexuals will force their children to take
sides in arguements forcing the children to choose between Mom or Dad.
When a heterosexual parent is angry with their child, they will usually
tell the child that they have the negative characteristics of the other
parent (eg. "you are stupid just like you Mother", or "You're a no good
lowlife scum just like your damn father"). These statements from these
Heterosexuals to their children usually cause the children to have low
self esteem. Usually the children from many of these messed up
heterosexual homes will have bad grades in school, be more violent, join
gangs, become alcoholics, use drugs, and even commit suicide. The agenda
of the young heterosexual woman is also to get as many guys as she can.
Many of these women try to get pregnant so that they can force the men
who get them pregnant to stay with them. But the agenda of the straight
woman to keep a man by getting pregnant doesn't allways work. Many of the
men who get them pregnant leave them for someone else. So then these
Heterosexual women end up having 3-5 children who each have a different
Father and different last names. Many of the young heterosexual womens
children don't even know their Fathers. So then the heterosexual
community tries to make up for the mess they caused by having marches and
rally's like the "Million man March" and the "Promise Keepers" where they
try to fix the mess they caused while engaged in their perverted
heterosexual lifestyles by telling other Heterosexual men to take care of
and spend time the children they brought in the world with their "flings"
and affairs and by ex-wives that they no longer love. But the message at
these heterosexual gatherings doesn't seem to sink in to the minds of the
heterosexual men. The Divorce rate and the child support cases is still
as high as it was before these rallies.

[OinK! ~(^@^)~]

lac...@webtv.net wrote:
>
> In this article I am going to expose the TRUTH about the Heterosexual
> lifestyle. I grew up in a Heterosexual household with straight
> heterosexual parents and siblings and I saw the inside truth about the
> heterosexual lifestyle.
>

WOW! I started to red this piece, half expecting satire...but found,
instead, a comment on society that was, to say the least, distressing
and depressing. It was as if I was reading about my two sisters and
their ex-husbands part of the time, and other people I have known
throughout the piece.

My parents stayed together for better or worse, sickness, health, richer
or poorer for 45 years, until my Father died. They were an exception it
seems. They did their utmost to provide a life for us that was abundant;
love, caring, warmth...the good things!

My gay relationship of 10 years ended when my partner died of AIDS
complications, so for us it was "til death do you part". My relationship
with Ron lasted twice as long as my two sisters hetero relatioships.
Both still suffer the consequences; single Mothers with 5 sons between
them. Life is a struggle for them. They now see *all* straight men as
assholes where relationships are concerned, when in fact what happened
is that they both made poor choices and foolish decisions.

Whose 'fault' is this? Who knows? Both sisters are not totally happy and
do not see a mate in their futures, whereas I have found someone I
love. Sadly, it is illegal for me to marry, even though the longevity,
health and forecast of my relationship seem bright.

Go figure.

Michael

[Bill Valentine]

lac...@webtv.net wrote:

>In this article I am going to expose the TRUTH about the Heterosexual

^^^^^^
Are you a quoteable source ? Whose truth?

Bill Valentine
bil...@stargate.1starnet.com

[Annonymous]

WORK IT GIRL-FRIEND!!!

My parents have been married for 40 years to this day! My dad called my
mother a bitch & whore for hudereds of years, it seems, either just before
or during an argument because during a lenghty abscence on his manly social
dictated military duty abroad to kill other straight men who kill straight
men to let them know they shouldn't kill straight men(military didn't allow
gays in those days, no?), they both had an affair. Only problem was she
confessed hers & he didn't confess his, but we all knew he had
affairs(never found out who the ghost on the phone was who would call when
mom was at work and speak to my dad but not us kids, we just got a click).
Dad was physically abusive to mom as well & they haven't had sex for
hmm...some 10 years now yet my mother still sadly wants it. They claim
they stayed together for the kids! Now I guess love, or the cost of a
divorce, keeps them together today.
HA! Sister & I wish they'd have divorced!!! SERIOUSLY!
When my sisters boyfriend rapped her as a virgin when she went to his
house, unknown to my parents, because only whores did that, my parents
didn't defend her because she was in the wrong(date rape from some straight
bastard whos friend & he locked the door while he forced her in the bedroom
& took her virginity).

Both my parents parents are divorced, but not my parents. On his side his
mother had her jaw bone broken by his dad, maybe that's why he beat mom so
much. Is this why they figure I should marry a woman & beat her infront of
the kids? This may sound like one of those families, but mom has a nursing
degree, dad a bachelors in business as well as me & sister has a bachelors
in accounting. Only one w/o college is brother.

Get this! My friends neighbors got a divorce & when his sister heard of it
she said "But they got along so well". My friends reply was "That's what
you thought". This couple was very quiet & you never heard them fight at
all. Now like I said, my parents, along with the people across the street,
had very loud often violent fights, yet they are both still married & both
have at least one gay child, but then this other couple was very quiet, got
a divorce & has a gay daughter(who I saw at the bar) yet they are divorced.
How do ya' figure?

Janet Jacksons song: "What About" on her new album says:

"We walked along the beach. What a moon lit night. He held my hand in his.
He kissed me he said I wanna spend my life with you. I want you for my
wife. Just then I thought. What about the times you lied to me what about
the times you said no one would want me. What about all the shit you've
done to me. What about that? What about that? What about the times you
yelled at me, what about the times you yelled at me, what about the times I
cried you wouldn't even hold me. What about those things? What about
that, what about that! What about the times you hit my face? What about
the times you kept on when I said no more please? What about those things?
What about that what about that? What about the times you shamed me? What
about the times you said you didn't fuck her she only gave you head? What
about that? Don't wanna live my life in misery don't tell me you did it
cause you love me......"

If more couples would look at both sides of the coin they'd save themselves
heartache in the long run.

However, Mr. & Ms. Jackson are still happily, uh...I mean married to this
day.
like any respectable couple of the fifties should be.

lac...@webtv.net wrote in article <8788046...@dejanews.com>...

[Ezekiel Krahlin]

On Thu, 06 Nov 1997 02:41:14 -0600, lac...@webtv.net said:

>In this article I am going to expose the TRUTH about the Heterosexual
>lifestyle. I grew up in a Heterosexual household with straight
>heterosexual parents and siblings and I saw the inside truth about the
>heterosexual lifestyle.

Thank you, Laconia, for yet another aggressively honest essay. As you
know, I have showcased your earlier writings on my web site...where
they remain as permanent record. I am now adding this, one of your
latest--and excellent as usual--essays. You are a treasure for our
community, and for the Internet.

I also did a search in DejaNews, to what new things you are up
to...and I was rewarded to find more new essays you posted in the
queer (and christnet) newsgroups:

LIST OF FAMOUS ANTI-GAY BIGGOTS! (Updated)

THE PSYCHOLOGY OF GAY BASHING (Heterosexuals obsession with
Homosexuality).

BLACK PROTESTERS ARE TROUBLEMAKERS, BUT FUNDEMENTALIST PROTESTERS ARE
NOT

RE: WHITE RACIST RELIGION

I have now added your latest articles to my web site (which URL has
recently changed; see below). You are a most talented writer, and have
become a treasure of insight on behalf of the cause for lesbian and
thracian civil rights. In case no one else has thanked you lately, let
me do so now: THANK YOU! Thanks to the Internet, your words will
travel to all corners of the world...and know that you may inspire
people you'll never meet.

I hope I haven't missed any other articles! As I mentioned in an
earlier correspondence, you are always welcome to inform me of any new
posting of a new essays...and I won't consider this braggadocio on
your part. I really do value your works as an asset to our community,
and want to keep them on record for anyone to view whenever they want.
You are also invited to send me a bio, opinions, or any other
gay-relevant treatises you care to have public. You can even send me a
photo of yourself, if you'd like, which I will place on my "Laconia"
page. (This I have already done for another contributor, Julia
Vinograd.) As your works pile up, I may break them down
into several web pages.

By the way: are you aware of the interesting long term thread in
soc.motss, called "Seceeding From The Het Empire"? You might find
some inspiring articles therein, not just by yours truly (and I am a
main participant), but from a fellow by name of "Kingsix". You might
want to check it out...and you can also download a copy of the entire
thread from my web page, by linking to:

<http://ezekielk.simplenet.com/extra/secede.txt>

P.S.: I tried to send you a version of this message by private mail,
but your e-mail, lac...@webtv.net keeps getting bounced back at me.

---
Let's secede from those who breed,
Make it sin to *not waste seed!

My web site kicks (but never licks) butt!
http://ezekielk.simplenet.com/
(a.k.a. "godhatesbreeders.com")

mailto:ezek...@hotmail.com

[lac...@webtv.net]

In article <3461FD...@att.net>,
DadP...@Worldnet.att.net wrote:

>
> lac...@webtv.net wrote:
> >
> > In this article I am going to expose the
> > TRUTH about the Heterosexual lifestyle.
>

> WOW! I started to red this piece, half
> expecting satire...but found, instead, a
> comment on society that was, to say the least, > distressing and depressing.

Well... I did want to start off the article in a satire way but I also
wanted to get serious and get personal and use nationwide stats and
stereotypes in order to mirror the stereotypes that the heterosexuals
have about us and sort of "give them a taste of their own medicine" and
see how they like it. However, most of things mentioned were true
especially since all you hear Straight people talking about sex, bragging
about what they did and who they did it with, plus the fact that most of
what you see on TV is Heterosexuals either having sex, of talking about
it. Plus factor in the high divorce rate, adultery (affair) rate, child
abuse rate (physical and emotional), and domestic violence rate in the
Straight community and the fact that most families DO NOT live like the
Cleavers, Nelsons, Brady's or the Huxtables. Most families live like the
Connor's on "Roseanne" and that's why this show is such a threat to the
Fundementalist-Right because Roseanne's show "tells the truth" about the
American Family, there are arguements, extra-marital-affairs, name
calling, violence, unemployment, alcoholism, sexual issues, Gay people,
"out of wedlock" pregnancies, and family members that haven't spoken to
each other in YEARS (although Roseanne's Family was in better shape than
mine.) The ultimate purpose of the article was to prove that we all have
problems, none of us are perfect, we ALL make mistakes and there is bad
in EVERYONE (as well as good), and to make the Heterosexual look at
his/her own house and his/her own family and to put their households in
order before they look at us Gays and Lesbians in judgement for our
so-called "Lifestyles" (he/she who is without sin, CAST THE FIRST
STONE!!)

[dion...@infinet.com]

Bill Valentine (bil...@stargate.1starnet.com) said:

}Are you a quoteable source ? Whose truth?

You are a quotable debunker?

<chuckle> I do love Usenet! Especially those on it whom don't realize that
this is the place for opinions and discussion, not college dissertations
and studious reviews of psychological topics.

--
<a href="http://www.infinet.com/~dionisio">My Web Pages</a>

And the Thought of the Moment (tm) is...

One of the problems with monotheism is that it isolates evil. Because we
cannot accept the idea that there is evil in our God, there is a danger
that we will not be able to endure it in ourselves. It can then be pushed
away and made monstrous and inhuman, leading ultimately to commencement of
atrocities by the faithful for the ironic purpose of "purging evil".
(Inquisition and such)

[Ezekiel Krahlin]

On Thu, 06 Nov 1997 20:30:29 GMT, bil...@stargate.1starnet.com (Bill
Valentine) said:

>lac...@webtv.net wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>In this article I am going to expose the TRUTH about the Heterosexual

> ^^^^^^

>Are you a quoteable source ? Whose truth?

I would say that Laconia's experience is typical for the majority of
families in the United States. We have become a terribly
dysfunctional society, because we have chosen to *ignore our most
serious problems...which includes homophobia; as well as child abuse,
racism, and class elitism.

Of all developed nations in this world, we are: the most violent, the
least literate, the least democratic, and the most sex-phobic. We
have far more cults and weird fringe groups than any other nation, and
we are also the main source of mass murderers.

Something is seriously wrong with our society...and heterocentrism is
a major force behind these problems.

---
Let's secede from those who breed,
Make it sin to *not waste seed!

My web site kicks (but never licks) butt!
http://ezekielk.simplenet.com/

mailto:ezek...@hotmail.com

[JTEM]

Ezekiel Krahlin <ezek...@hotmail.com_Z> wrote:
[---snip---]

Zeke's fallen off his medication again. Major rah.\

John
--
JT...@SUNSPOT.TIAC.NET

[lac...@webtv.net]

In article
<0C7245A8F8B6D31D.6544878D...@library-proxy.airnews
..net>, "Eva Jung" <ju...@ezaccess.net> wrote:

>
> I must be one of the not mentioned 40%. My
> husband and I do have all those wonderful
> family "fantasy" things as you put it

Well, most people DON'T. And even some of that 40% is unhappy. And think
of it, since only 40% of people who get married stay together forever,
that means that a majority of Americans disagree with the biblical
standards for marriage. Be careful before you call this a God-fearing,
Christian country.

> and we don't consider our child a burden

Your "Christian" Friend Susan Smith did.

> but the greatest blessing in the world. Just
> because you life was foul doesn't mean that
> all hets are like that. I feel that the
> homosexual agenda is to break up families

O.K. Eva. Then please explain to me how Homosexuals are causing Straight
men to beat the mess out of their wives??? And please explain how
Homosexuals are causing Straight Men to cheat on their wives??? And how
are Homosexuals causing Straight women to cheat on their husbands? And
PLEASE explain to me how Gay's and Lesbians are causing Straight couples
to go to Family Court and get a Divorce. Also, please explain to me how
Gay people are causing Straight men to impregnate women and dump them???
You better stop blaming the problems of today's so called "family" on the
Gay community. You Heterosexuals are causing your own problems, you file
the divorces, you decide to cheat, you decide to batter your spouces,
Gay's and Lesbians DO NOT force you to do anything. My parents DID NOT
know any Gay people. You Heterosexuals have better straighten (pardon
the pun) out your own mess before you talk about Gay people. You cost
the taxpayer more money than we do with the cost of welfare, cost of
battered women's shelters, cost of chasing after "deadbeat dads". Your
friend Newt Gingrich had the nerve to blame the Liberal Democrats for
Susan's Smith's decision to drown her children when we know for a fact
that Susan Smith was raised in a God Fearing, Conservative Christian
household, with a Conservative Christian Father who was a friend of Pat
Robertson's (who also molested Susan).

> All you managed to "expose" is the truth about > how your parents interacted not how all/most
> heterosexuals act; so, now what...
> Eva

Then why is it OK for you Fundementalist's to judge all Homosexuals by
the actions of a few? Films like "The Gay Agenda" only expose how a few
Gay's act, not how all Gays act. Neither I or any of my Gay friends walk
down the street dressed in leather, wearing spiked collars or carring
whips. Neither do I or my friends dress up as women. Fact is most
crossdressers are Straight men.

All we have been hearing from you was sterotypes about Gay & Lesbian
people for years. Now you Fundementalist Christians want to have one set
of rules and standards for judging the "Gay Lifestyle", and CHANGE these
rules and standards when you want to talk about "The straight lifestyle".
One set of rules for Heterosexuals, and a different set of rules for
Homosexuals. You can't have a DOUBLE STANDARD. You are a bunch of
hypocrites.

This article was to mirror all the sterotypes you have had about Gays and
use them at Straights and "give you a taste of your own medicine".

[lac...@webtv.net]

In article <64trmk$6c4$1...@gte1.gte.net>,
Jesse <jplummer.@gte.net> wrote:
>
> Thats the first time I was called a
> bigot...hehe Kinda funny. A bigot is someone
> who hates...I do not hate anybody.

That sounds farmilliar, i've heard that phrase
before from the Klan, Skinheads and from Louis
Farrakahn.

> Homosexual lifestyles are a CHOICE,

A Choice?? You Christians can't even make up your minds about how people
become Gay. On minute you say it's a choice, the next minute you say it's
not a choice, that were Gay because we were molested. Then the next
minute, you say were Gay because we had no Father when we were growing
up. Then the next minute you say it's a choice again. MAKE UP YOUR
MIND!!!

> Homosexuals come in these newsgroups and get
> mad when we discuss Gods laws.

Christians come into the Gay newsgroups and post articles on how Gays
should commit suicide, and how gays should be executed by the government.
However, I don't see you or any other Christian complaining about that
Jesse, it's only when we respond and defend ourselves that you complain
about.

Christians also don't mind picketing at Gay and
Lesbian peoples funerals.

> If you know these are the laws of the Lord,
> then why do you come in here and pick
> fights and get mad at us because you choose
> not to listen to God? You know we feel this
> way. You know we are adament about God's Laws.

No, you Christians PICK AND CHOOSE from the bible the verses that suit
you the best and IGNORE the versres that offend you and your friends.
How come you Christians don't try to outlaw Divorce, or try to keep
divorcees out of the millitary?? Why aren't you Christians trying to
keep those who have pre-marital sex out of the millitary, or telling
employers that it's ok to discriminate against those who have pre-marital
sex. Why aren't Christians trying to outlaw the sale of Alcoholic
beverages, or trying to keep those who drink Alcohol out of the
millitary, or telling employers to discriminate against those who drink
alcohol (even if they come to work sober)?? Why don't you Christians try
to keep people who have had extra-marital affairs out of the millitary??
Why don't you Christians try to get divorced people fired from their
jobs?? Why aren't you Christians trying to keep people who "take the
lords name in vain" (those who use the word "G-d D-m-") out of the
millitary, or trying to get them fired from their jobs??? Why aren't you
Christians truing to teach in the schools that Divorce is a evil sin,
that Divorcees are "sinners", or that Pre-marital sex is "evil" and
"sick" or that those who dring wine, beer, or liquor are "sick" and
"evil"

You are boycotting Disney because of Ellen's Lesbianism. Donald Trump
is getting Divorced for the second time, but you Christians aren't
boycotting any of his businesses. The same bible you use to say
Homosexuality is a "sin" also says that Divorce is a "sin", but I barely
hear you Christians on Television preaching against that. In fact, many
of you friends are Divorced, Newt Gingrich, Rush Limbaugh, Phil Grahm,
Bob Dole, Ronald Reagan. you never call them "sinners" or tell them that
they are going to hell. All of them are friends of Rev. Pat Robertson.
And Pat Robertsons friend Wynonna Judd had premarital sex, and after
becomong pregnant, she didn't want to marry the Father (but married him
later). They bashed fictional TV character Murphy Brown for the same
thing, but said nothing about Wynonna.

> We are sinners as well but we don't 'come out > of a closet and profess that we have used foul > language',

WHAT CLOSET? People already use Foul language in public anyway, because
our society accepts the use of "foul Language" in public. There is no
"Foul Language" closet. Just walk down any street, sit in any resturant,
walk in any department store, train station, your place of employment, or
turn on your television and you will hear "Foul Language'. It's already
accepted in our society. People don't loose their jobs because they use
"foul language", people don't get kicked out of the millitary because
they use "Foul Language", people don't get bashed in the streets because
they use "foul language"

> we have genuine remorse for our sins and will
> always have the same views. You get mad saying
> we want to change you, yes we do.

Why aren't you trying to change those who curse, those who cheat on their
spouces, those who wear tattos, those who have sex without being married,
those who have multiple marriages and divorces, those who Drink alcohol,
those who don't go to church, or those who are in gangs.

> If you dont want to be changed, don't come in
> here. This post is x-posted to three NG's, all > of which are Christian.

Christians don't mind x-posting to 5 newsgroups, which are all gay,
talking about how gays should "kill themselves", or how our government
should execute those who are Gay & Lesbian, but I still don't see you
complaing about that.

> You have the choice. Stay here and read our
> views or go to a homosexual NG and post and
> read homosexual views.

Unfortuneately, Homosexual NG's have your
Christian views too. We just wanted to return you the favor.

[Logikus]

On Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:56:55 -0500, "Eva Jung" <ju...@ezaccess.net> wrote:

>Sin is Choice. I was a lesbian. I made a choice not to sin.
>lac...@webtv.net wrote in message <8799612...@dejanews.com>...

Yeah, ok. Well I am my own God and when I say being straight is wrong... well...
then being straight is wrong. And you know I'm right, because Im only using the
basic arguments otehr religions do.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
-Arthur C. Clarke
"You can't beat military intelligence."
-Jay Leno

[Eva Jung]

Sin is Choice. I was a lesbian. I made a choice not to sin.
lac...@webtv.net wrote in message <8799612...@dejanews.com>...

[OinK! ~(^@^)~]

Eva Jung wrote:
>
> Sin is Choice. I was a lesbian. I made a choice not to sin.

Thank you Eva! I may not agree with lesbian = sin, which doesn't matter,
but I DO SO STRONGLY AGREE with a choice NOT to sin. If one sees
homosexuality as sin, so be it! I thank GOD you didn't say "I had chosen
to be a lesbian, than chose to NOT be a lesbian"!!

RevOinK!

[OinK! ~(^@^)~]

Logikus wrote:
>
> On Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:55:56 -0800, "OinK! ~(^@^)~" <dadp...@att.net> wrote:

>
> >Eva Jung wrote:
> >>
> >> Sin is Choice. I was a lesbian. I made a choice not to sin.
> >
> >

> >Thank you Eva! I may not agree with lesbian = sin, which doesn't matter,
> >but I DO SO STRONGLY AGREE with a choice NOT to sin. If one sees
> >homosexuality as sin, so be it! I thank GOD you didn't say "I had chosen
> >to be a lesbian, than chose to NOT be a lesbian"!!
> >
> >RevOinK!
>

> Reverant *Oink*....
> Sin as defined by whom? The damn ministries (each of the 15.000+ different ones)
> seem to have their own laws which they hold higher than those legislated by the
> politicians. You bozos should be shot :)

Puh-leeeeze..... My only steadfast laws are: Don't hurt anyone and NEVER
pay RETAIL.

RevOinK!
Church of That Girl

[Logikus]

On Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:55:56 -0800, "OinK! ~(^@^)~" <dadp...@att.net> wrote:

>Eva Jung wrote:
>>
>> Sin is Choice. I was a lesbian. I made a choice not to sin.
>
>

>Thank you Eva! I may not agree with lesbian = sin, which doesn't matter,
>but I DO SO STRONGLY AGREE with a choice NOT to sin. If one sees
>homosexuality as sin, so be it! I thank GOD you didn't say "I had chosen
>to be a lesbian, than chose to NOT be a lesbian"!!
>
>RevOinK!

Reverant *Oink*....
Sin as defined by whom? The damn ministries (each of the 15.000+ different ones)
seem to have their own laws which they hold higher than those legislated by the
politicians. You bozos should be shot :)

[lac...@webtv.net]

HEY WHAT HAPPENED JESSE??! Did you chicken out of this debate? I thought
you were a fighter. I know I asked some hard and difficult questions
below, but I thought you could handle them. Is there any other
christian who can handle some of these questions?

> In article <64trmk$6c4$1...@gte1.gte.net>,
> Jesse <jplummer.@gte.net> wrote:

> > Homosexual lifestyles are a CHOICE,

> A Choice?? You Christians can't even make up
> your minds about how people become Gay. On

> minute you say it's a choice, the next minute > you say it's not a choice, that were have
> uncontrolable Gay feelings because we were
> "molested". Then the next minute, you say were > Gay because we had no Father when we were

> growing up. Then the next minute you say it's > a choice again. MAKE UP YOUR MIND!!!

> > Homosexuals come in these newsgroups and get
> > mad when we discuss Gods laws.

> Christians come into the Gay newsgroups and
> post articles on how Gays should commit
> suicide, and how gays should be executed by
> the government. However, I don't see you or
> any other Christian complaining about that
> Jesse, it's only when we respond and defend
> ourselves that you complain about.

> Christians also don't mind picketing at Gay
> and Lesbian peoples funerals.

> > If you know these are the laws of the Lord,
> > then why do you come in here and pick
> > fights and get mad at us because you choose
> > not to listen to God? You know we feel this
> > way. You know we are adament about God's
> > Laws.

> No, you Christians PICK AND CHOOSE from the
> bible the verses that suit you the best and

> IGNORE the verses that offend you and your

> friends.
> How come you Christians don't try to outlaw > Divorce, or try to keep divorcees out of the

> millitary?? Why aren't you Christians trying > to keep those heterosexuals who have

> pre-marital sex out of the millitary, or

> telling employers that it's ok to discriminate > against those Straights who have pre-marital

> sex.
> Why aren't Christians trying to outlaw the > sale of Alcoholic beverages, or trying to keep > those who drink Alcohol out of the millitary, > or telling employers to discriminate against
> those who drink alcohol (even if they come to > work sober)?? Why don't you Christians try
> to keep people who have had extra-marital
> affairs out of the millitary??
> Why don't you Christians try to get divorced > people fired from their jobs??
> Why aren't you Christians trying to keep > people who "take the lords name in vain"
> (those who use the word "G-d D-m-") out of the
> millitary, or trying to get them fired from
> their jobs???
> Why aren't you Christians truing to teach > in the schools that Divorce is a evil sin,
> that Divorcees are "sinners", or that
> Pre-marital sex is "evil" and "sick" or that
> those who dring wine, beer, or liquor are

> "sick" and "evil"????

> You are boycotting Disney because of Ellen's > Lesbianism. Donald Trump is getting Divorced
> for the second time, but you Christians aren't
> boycotting any of his businesses. The same
> bible you use to say Homosexuality is a "sin" > also says that Divorce is a "sin", but I
> barely hear you Christians on Television
> preaching against that. In fact, many of you > friends are Divorced, Newt Gingrich, Rush

> Limbaugh, Phil Graham, Bob Dole, Ronald

> Reagan. you never call them "sinners" or tell > them that they are going to hell. All of them > are friends of Rev. Pat Robertson. And Pat
> Robertsons friend Wynonna Judd had premarital > sex, and after becomong pregnant, she didn't
> want to marry the Father (but married him
> later). They bashed fictional TV character
> Murphy Brown for the same thing, but said
> nothing about Wynonna.

> > We are sinners as well but we don't 'come
> > out of a closet and profess that we have
> > used foul language',

> WHAT CLOSET? People already use Foul language > in public anyway, because our society accepts > the use of "foul Language" in public. There is > no "Foul Language" closet. Just walk down any > street, sit in any resturant, walk in any
> department store, train station, your place of > employment, or turn on your television and you > will hear "Foul Language'. It's already
> accepted in our society. People don't loose
> their jobs because they use "foul language",
> people don't get kicked out of the millitary
> because they use "Foul Language", people don't > get bashed in the streets because they use
> "foul language"

> > we have genuine remorse for our sins and
> > will always have the same views. You get mad > > saying we want to change you, yes we do.

> Why aren't you trying to change those who

> curse, those who cheat on their wives or
> husbands, those who wear tattos, those
> Heterosexuals who have sex without being

> married, those who have multiple marriages and > divorces, those who Drink alcohol, those who

> don't go to church, or those who are in gangs? > You are a bunch of Hypocrites.

> > If you dont want to be changed, don't come
> > in here. This post is x-posted to three
> > NG's, all of which are Christian.

> Christians don't mind x-posting to 5
> newsgroups, which are all gay, talking about
> how gays should "kill themselves", or how our > government should execute those who are Gay & > Lesbian, but I still don't see you complaing
> about that.

> > You have the choice. Stay here and read our
> > views or go to a homosexual NG and post and
> > read homosexual views.

> Unfortuneately, Homosexual NG's have your
> Christian views too. We just wanted to return > you the favor.

____________________________________________
POST ALL REPLIES IN PUBLIC !!!
E-MAIL IS BLOCKED to prevent SPAMMERS !!!
Plus, if you have nothing to hide, please POST
IT IN PUBLIC !!!!!
____________________________________________

[Cliff Anchor]

The trouble with "Christians" is that they are presumptuous pompous asses
who feel it is their God-given "duty" to sit in judgement on OTHERS. They
talk highly of "morality", forcing gays and lesbians to lie about
themselves in order to hold a job in the Military. Yet, the same "Christian
soldiers" (many of them married) go onto foreign soil, impregnate foreign
prostitutes and leave the resultant hundreds of thousands of babies to fend
for themselves as orphans in war zones. This, and items like Tailhook are
dismissed casually as 'boys will be boys'. Sure! BEFORE you Christians
start putting other people down, take a look at your OWN sinfulness,
INCLUDING that of being judgemental of others. If the Romans fed your kind
of "Christians" to the lions, the Romans would be heroes today and God
would buy season tickets to the Coliseum!

[Coronal]

Eva Jung wrote:
>
> Sin is Choice. I was a lesbian. I made a choice not to sin.

You may be celibate, but if you are attracted to women, you are still
a lesbian.

[Jesse]

I am right here. Anyone advocating suicide is not a Christian. I have siad it before and I will say it again, I do not hate anyone. Sin is sin. I too, am a sinner. I choose to attempt to live my life according to Gods laws. I am human and I
do make a mistake. I believe wholeheartedly that homosexuality is a choise. I don't think for one minute that molestation causes it. However I can see who it can screw up a childs thinking. I was abused (not sexually) as a child. I do not go
around beating kids up or anything like that. My parents had a pretty messy divorce. My father was a truck driver. My mother seemed to love her dogs more than her kids. Without going into great detail, we had to resort to dog food. Before
all of this took place, they were active in church, had a great marriage, kept the pantries adequately stocked. They let secular priorties come into their lives and everything fell apart. My dad came in and saw the conditions, bought
groceries and left. You guessed it, as soon as the food was gone, back to Alpo. I do not blame God, homosexuals, or anything else for my plight as a child other than the ones responsible. Do I hate them, no. We put it behind us. Do I
advocate child abuse? No. Do I physically abuse children or anyone for that matter? No. I understand that sexual abuse on a child can be extremely hard to deal with. It can cause all kinds of confusion. Suicide is not the answer. Never was
and never will be. Homosexuality is not even a sickness. Only a sin.

Christians have been advocating outlawing alcohol for years, remember prohibition? Fornication is also a sin. It is two or three verses above the verse about homosexuality in Leviticus 20. As far as boycotting a gay or lesbian funeral. Thats
outrageous. All of us are Gods children. Sin is sin and will be forgiven. How do they know what went on between the deceased and God in that moment before they passed on. I would not advocate execution of homosexuals or anything for that
matter. Murderers are the only ones that deserve execution. The Bible even points that out.

As far as chickening out, I just moved on to more intelligent discussions.

lac...@webtv.net wrote:

--
*********************************
Hitting reply will only cause you
problems. My email address is:
jplummer at gte dot net
This is in response to the tremendous effort
of spam kings like Cyberpromotions.

Romans 10:14
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?
And how shall they believe in whom they have not heard?
And how shall they hear without a preacher?

[Jesse]

Your attempts to cause doubts in her life are pretty ruthless. If she wants
to change, let her change. After all, isn't that your platform, choice? She
chose to not sin. You choose to do whatever you choose, let her choose.

Allen F. Bagwell wrote:

> On Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:32:13 -0500, "Eva Jung" <ju...@ezaccess.net>
> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> >I was a lesbian. I made the choice to stop sinning.
>
> [snip]
>
> >I do not hate homosexuals. I used to be one, and still have many gay
> >friends. That does not make it any less of a sin, but I still love them
> >regardless.
> >
> >
> >Praying for you,
> >EMJ
>
> So Eva, how is it that you know you are no longer a lesbian? Do you
> desire men? Or are you married and sleeping with your husband as
> "therapy" to keep your lesbian-oreinted feelings at bay?
>
> Based on several accounts I've read of supposedly "cured" homosexuals,
> as well as reading knowledgable articles on the subject from groups
> such as the APA, etc., I would have to say that you most likely fall
> into one of two categories:
>
> a) you have a bisexual orientation, with the option of acting on
> sexual inclination to either gender. You've been convinced by your
> religious authorities that you were a lesbian and the fact that you
> now have a husband is *evidence* of a cure. (This is common enough.
> It is based on the erronous presumption that bisexuality doesn't exist
> and that gay and hetero identity is founded on sexual acts alone.) As
> a bisexual, it may be easy for you bury sexual attraction for women
> and/or feel fulfilled being with your husband -- which only further
> cements your ill-informed opinion of the subject.
>
> b) you are a lesbian, but you have repressed it under an onslaught of
> self-loathing brought on by religious guilt and the desperate need to
> conform to the wishes of your *chosen* religious group for whatever
> reasons (family acceptance, social standing, the need to feel loved by
> someone, etc., etc.). You may have been conveniently misled to
> believe that other problems in your life were the result of being a
> lesbian. You've been convinced that sexual orientation is the same as
> sexual activity, therefore you think that as long as you aren't having
> sex with a woman you aren't a lesbian. And your husband is a "cross
> that wards off the vampire."
>
> Option "c" is not really related to the first two but could also be
> plausible.
>
> c) you are simply a person on the Internet, with or without an agenda,
> male or female, masking yourself with a false identity and life story
> for a purpose known only to yourself. Lots of people do it,
> especially in chat rooms and other public forums. There are several
> books on the subject.
>
> Allen
>
> ---------
> To reply by e-mail, remove the "nospam-" from the
> front of the my address.
>
> "My software doesn't have bugs, it just develops new, random features."

[Jesse]

Did you not just judge others and even resort to immature name calling?
We DO NOT HATE ANYONE, we only speak our beliefs. If you do not like it. stay
away from us.

Cliff Anchor wrote:

--

[Allen F. Bagwell]

[Rev. Billy]

lac...@webtv.net wrote:
>HEY WHAT HAPPENED JESSE??! Did you chicken out of this debate? I thought
>you were a fighter. I know I asked some hard and difficult questions
>below, but I thought you could handle them. Is there any other
>christian who can handle some of these questions?

You also used the sin of "logic", they immediately stop debating due
to a religious doctorine against the use of this other sin.

Rev. Billy
Church of the Killer Bees

[lac...@webtv.net]

In article <655725$1dk$1...@gte2.gte.net>,

Jesse <jplummer.@gte.net> wrote:
>
> I believe wholeheartedly that homosexuality is > a choise. I don't think for one minute that
> molestation causes it.

Apparently, there seems to be a big disagreement among conservative
Christians on how people become Gay. Some say it comes from being
molested, other say no. Others say it's from not having a father, others
disagree. Some say it's a choice, some say not. Some say were "sick",
other say were not. Perhaps before the christian community goes into the
public, oppressing the rights of Gay & Lesbian people, telling everyone
that we are "sick" and "evil", perhaps they should make up their minds
and come to a "moral absolute" about the making of a homosexual before
they push their beliefs on us. If they come to different conclusions
about how people become gay, they all can't be right, someone is wrong,
and if they are wrong about one thing, perhaps they are probably wrong
other things as well. I want to see a debate amongst Christians in this
newsgroup (just amongst christians) about how people grow up to be Gay,
the early influences, does molestation cause it? Does growing up in a
single-mother household cause it? Also, is sexual-orientation determined
at Birth, at toddler age, or at puberty? And what about choice? Do Gays
choose to have the attraction to the same sex?? Do they believe that a
Gay person can change their "attraction" simply by sleeping with someone
of the opposite sex (despite the fact that Gays have tried this before,
many times)?? Is religion the only way to "change"? If so, then what
about those heterosexuals who are not religious. Is it unfair to
homosexuals that they are "forced" to be religious in order to "change"
their sexual orientation meanwhile Heterosexuals don't have to put up
with religion in order to live the "Normal Heterosexual Lifestyle" that
the Fundementalists want people to live??? I hope to see thse questions
asked and this topic dealt with.

> > > In article <64trmk$6c4$1...@gte1.gte.net>,
> > > Jesse <jplummer.@gte.net> wrote:

> > > > Homosexual lifestyles are a CHOICE,

> > > A Choice?? You Christians can't even make > > > up your minds about how people become Gay. > > > One minute you say it's a choice, the next > > > minute you say it's not a choice, that

> > > were have uncontrolable Gay feelings
> > > because we were "molested". Then the next > > > minute, you say were Gay because we had no > > > Father when we were growing up. Then the
> > > next minute you say it's a choice again.
> > > MAKE UP YOUR MIND!!!

_______________________________________________
PLEASE POST ALL REPLIES in PUBLIC!
E-MAIL is BLOCKED to prevent SPAMMERS.
_______________________________________________

[George M. Carter]

Coronal <Wha...@Zone.com> wrote:

>Eva Jung wrote:
>>
>> Sin is Choice. I was a lesbian. I made a choice not to sin.

>You may be celibate, but if you are attracted to women, you are still
>a lesbian.

A/k/a, "but you ARE, Blanche, you ARE!"

[Ward Stewart]

Jesse <jplummer.@gte.net> wrote:

>~Your attempts to cause doubts in her life are pretty ruthless. If she wants
>~to change, let her change. After all, isn't that your platform, choice? She
>~chose to not sin. You choose to do whatever you choose, let her choose.

On 21 Nov 1997 23:39:19 GMT, you wrote:

>~Your attempts to cause doubts in her life are pretty ruthless. If she wants
>~to change, let her change. After all, isn't that your platform, choice? She
>~chose to not sin. You choose to do whatever you choose, let her choose.

you have a point there -- on the day that she and the rest of the
hate-mongers who are working so diligently to make feel that 40 years
of faithful devotion and loving with the same person is evil and that
he and I by reason of thie liason are to be denied the human rights
which are supposed ot devolve on ALL the citizens, I shall cease
troubling her and move on to more rewarding debate.

ward

***********************************************************
"I am constantly mystified by this notion of "disagreeing"
with homosexuality -- not unlike disagreeing with Tuesday --
like it or not, every seven days, there it is -- TUESDAY.
uncle ward
***********************************************************

[curnon]

I personally think that if she is truly happy that it is great. I do have
great concerns if she is give false hope to someone who is completely
homosexual who may decide to follow her foot steps and fail. This causing such
self doubt that they kill themselves. Does this happen?; all the time.
Curnon

Jesse wrote:

> Your attempts to cause doubts in her life are pretty ruthless. If she wants

> to change, let her change. After all, isn't that your platform, choice? She

> chose to not sin. You choose to do whatever you choose, let her choose.
>

[curnon]

Jesse,
Reading your post brought tears to my eyes. The pain you must of gone through while growing up had to be immense. For a moment put yourself in that pain and you will understand some of the pain I felt growing up realizing I was gay. I prayed
daily for the Lord to remove this curse or to let me die. Contemplated suicide on a number of occasions. At one point I decided that if there was a God he was a sadist and I did not want to have anything to do with him.
Once I realize that the Lord truly loved me and that my homosexuality had nothing to do with that love my life turned completely around. I found a man that loved me for who I was and looked past my history of promiscuity. I stopped sexually
acting out. Stopped drinking and drugging. I have now even stopped smoking.
I know longer have the pain that was once caused by the belief that my homosexuality is a sin that I was going to die and go to hell for. If at some point the Lord leads me down a road that takes my lover away from me and places a woman in his
place I will accept that because I accept what ever the Lord has in store for me. Could you do the same?
Curnon
When there is hatred in the heart there is no room for the Lord

[JTEM]

Two simple facts:

White men don't like black men because they have larger penises.

Heterosexuals don't like homosexuals for the same reason.

John
--
JT...@SUNSPOT.TIAC.NET

[Jesse]

Perhaps you should get your head out of your ass and read my post! I am tired of people deliberatly misconstruing what I write. If thats how you spread your homosexuality propaganda, then so be
it but leave me out of it. It just proves you gay people are liars and without remorse.

lac...@webtv.net wrote:

> In article <655725$1dk$1...@gte2.gte.net>,
> Jesse <jplummer.@gte.net> wrote:
> >

> > I believe wholeheartedly that homosexuality is > a choise. I don't think for one minute that
> > molestation causes it.
>

> > > > In article <64trmk$6c4$1...@gte1.gte.net>,
> > > > Jesse <jplummer.@gte.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > Homosexual lifestyles are a CHOICE,
>

> > > > A Choice?? You Christians can't even make > > > up your minds about how people become Gay. > > > One minute you say it's a choice, the next > > > minute you say it's not a choice, that

> > > > were have uncontrolable Gay feelings
> > > > because we were "molested". Then the next > > > minute, you say were Gay because we had no > > > Father when we were growing up. Then the
> > > > next minute you say it's a choice again.
> > > > MAKE UP YOUR MIND!!!
>

> _______________________________________________
> PLEASE POST ALL REPLIES in PUBLIC!
> E-MAIL is BLOCKED to prevent SPAMMERS.
> _______________________________________________
>

[Jesse]

How can she be a hatemonger? She made a decision. You want to make all
heterosexual people hatemongerers?!? You just can't handle it when she announced
that she made a decision. After all, you made a decision to be a narrow minded
bigotted liar!

Ward Stewart wrote:

--

[Jesse]

You immature sick little puppy....

JTEM wrote:

--

[OinK! ~(^@^)~]

Jesse wrote:
SNIP
> ..... It just proves you gay people are liars and without remorse.

"You gay people"??

How convenient to lump such a large group of people in to "you gay
people". At least some of us who are gay take the trouble to catagorize
"you straight (allegedly) people" in these NG's in to "Christians" and
"Xtians"!

Rev OinK!

[Jack Danger]

Curnon-

Yes, many self proclaimed Christians prey upon the false hope of
homosexuals. We forget that gays also grow up in Christian homes;
these men and women often suffer from guilt and the desire to be
normal. Attending private Christian schools from first through
college, I have many horror stories about gay friends suffering from
mental breakdowns, suicide attempts, and gentile mutilation.

Gays can remain celebate or even have sex with members of the opposite
sex; although their sexual orientation does not change. They are only
living a lie and playing the role of a heterosexual like an academy
award winning actor. While we may have a choice about our physical
behavior, we can not change the attraction element of sexual
orientation.

If we listen to married men who come out of the closet, they all
clearly state the feeling that they were living a lie. As Christians,
we don't offer homosexuals the quality of life that we demand for
ourself and our family. There is something wrong with a religion that
makes suicide a better alternative than life or forces believers into
the closet as a condition of acceptence..

-JD

On 22 Nov 1997 20:42:04 GMT, curnon <cur...@gte.net> wrote:

>I personally think that if she is truly happy that it is great. I do have
>great concerns if she is give false hope to someone who is completely
>homosexual who may decide to follow her foot steps and fail. This causing such
>self doubt that they kill themselves. Does this happen?; all the time.
>Curnon
>
>Jesse wrote:
>

>> Your attempts to cause doubts in her life are pretty ruthless. If she wants

>> to change, let her change. After all, isn't that your platform, choice? She

>> chose to not sin. You choose to do whatever you choose, let her choose.
>>

[curnon]

Jesse wrote:

> Perhaps you should get your head out of your ass and read my post! I am tired of people deliberatly misconstruing what I write. If thats how you spread your homosexuality propaganda, then so be

> it but leave me out of it. It just proves you gay people are liars and without remorse.
>
> lac...@webtv.net wrote:

Jesse, the far right posters have also done this to me. Being misquoted in this group or any group is not only not uncommon. This is not an issue of being gay or straight. This is not an issue of
remorse or being a liar. This is an issue of misunderstanding and sometimes misquoting for the purpose of making a point. But to say that this is gay propaganda and equating this to "spreading
homosexuality" is nothing more than baring false witness.
I honestly had some respect for you after reading some of your posts. Even though I disagreed with you I thought you were an honest person just trying to get your point across. Again I was wrong.

No need to reply to this Jesse this is the last response I will give your posts.
Peace be with you,
Curnon

[curnon]

An apology to Jesse:
I do have continued respect for you. I do not agree with what you are saying and feel you could use more respect in your points but I have no right to judge your intent in your posts.
Peace
Curnon

[Logikus]

On 22 Nov 1997 23:06:21 GMT, Jesse <jplummer.@gte.net> wrote:

>Perhaps you should get your head out of your ass and read my post! I am tired of people deliberatly misconstruing what I write. If thats how you spread your homosexuality propaganda, then so be
>it but leave me out of it. It just proves you gay people are liars and without remorse.
>

And in your words...
"And Jesus said... love all people" (or some crap like that)
You damn hypocrit! Kill the heathen! She's a witch! Burn her...

Grow the fuck up, lady....

***********************************************************************************

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
-Arthur C. Clarke
"You can't beat military intelligence."
-Jay Leno

Please reply by email to log...@oslo.online.no
************************************************************************************

[Logikus]

Re: Christians can't agree about how people become Gay (was Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT
THE HETEROSEXUAL (Straight) LIFESTYLE)

Like all else in the brain it's biochemical. Animals have the same "problem".

[Logikus]

On 23 Nov 1997 02:27:44 GMT, jt...@tiac.net (JTEM) wrote:

>Logikus <bugre...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>I've often heard it said that homophobes & people who crosspost to
>inappropriate newsgroups are over-compensating for their tiny weewees.

Hey I just follow the thread. BTW you crossposted too, and I don't have anything
for or against gays. What they do in private is what they do. What interest
could it possibly be of anyone else?

[Logikus]

On 23 Nov 1997 02:28:36 GMT, jt...@tiac.net (JTEM) wrote:

>Logikus <bugre...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> [---snip---]
>
>Cut the shit, air head.

If you would read the posts which preceeded mine you might understand we're on
the same side. Jumping into a post unprepared like this, sheesh.

[JTEM]

Logikus <bugre...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[---snip---]

Cut the shit, air head.

John
--
JT...@SUNSPOT.TIAC.NET

[JTEM]

Logikus <bugre...@hotmail.com> wrote:

I've often heard it said that homophobes & people who crosspost to
inappropriate newsgroups are over-compensating for their tiny weewees.

John
--
JT...@SUNSPOT.TIAC.NET

[Jesse]

But why make her out to be a hatemongerer when she simply made a decision to not
sin?
Maybe she realizes she wasn't gay after all or maybe she is working it out, she
never said. She sais she chose not to sin anymore. All true Christians refrain from
sin as best as they can. We are human and we tend to fall now and again but that
doesn't mean we are horrible people because we
prefer not to sin.

[L. Michael Roberts]

Jesse wrote:
>
> How do you know she isn't changed? She is the only one that can answer to that and
> she, nor I alluded to her being a heterosexual. She said she was a homosexual and she
> found out homosexuality is a sin and she chooses not to sin. She has plenty of trials
> and tribulations to overcome without all these homosexual zealots trying to make her
> feel guilty. I am praying for her and hope all the real Christians will join me in
> prayer.

"...all the real Christians.." Does this mean that there are unreal
christians?

+====================== L. Michael Roberts ======================+
This represents my personal opinion and NOT Company policy
Burlington, Ont, Canada - to reply, remove '0spam' from my address
+====================================================================+

[JTEM]

: On 23 Nov 1997 02:28:36 GMT, jt...@tiac.net (JTEM) wrote:
: >Cut the shit, air head.
:
: If you would read the posts which preceeded mine you might understand we're

: on the same side. Jumping into a post unprepared like this, sheesh.

I was responding to your inappropriate crossposting.

John

--
JT...@SUNSPOT.TIAC.NET

[lac...@webtv.net]

In article <657ohd$bi6$2...@gte1.gte.net>,
Jesse <jplummer.@gte.net> wrote:

> Perhaps you should get your head out of your ass and read my post!

Oooh, now we're becoming hostile. Isn't that "Unchristian" behavior???

> I am tired of people deliberatly misconstruing > what I write.

You claim to be part of an Religious organization. An organization that
claims to have a moral absolute for everything. An organization that
claims to know the TRUTH about EVERYTHING because God the Creator tells
you so in the bible, through tonges, through prayer, and in claims that
God spoke to you on occasions. I see contradictions in your
organization. And since your organization wants to force your morals and
beliefs on us in the gay community, you are darn right that we are going
to look for contradictions. We are going to check for your stability as a
Religious organization, especially a religious organization that wants to
force your beliefs and values on us politically as well as socially. If
you christians don't know how people become Gay, then why should we trust
you when you say anything else????

> If thats how you spread your homosexuality

> propaganda, then so be it. but leave me out of > it.

You got yourself into it.

> It just proves you gay people are liars and
> without remorse.

Me a liar?? Did I make it up when I stated that Christians have different
beliefs from each other on how people become Gay??? What else did I lie
about?????

[JTEM]

Logikus (bugre...@hotmail.com) wrote:
: Hey I just follow the thread. BTW you crossposted too,

Not without editing out newsgroups.

: and I don't have anything

: for or against gays. What they do in private is what they do. What interest
: could it possibly be of anyone else?

I have no idea.

John

--
JT...@SUNSPOT.TIAC.NET

[Jack Danger]

Jesse-

I support her decision. However, her decision does not make her a
heterosexual. A person can repress their sexual orientation, but one
can not change their sexual orientation.

[Logikus]

On 23 Nov 1997 04:42:20 GMT, Jesse <jplummer.@gte.net> wrote:

>I am a man. You obviously need help.

Oh yeah right Ilike Im supposed to guess a person name Jesse is a man!

[Jesse]

Typically a female named the same will spell her name Jessie or Jessy, not many females
spell
it Jesse, Although some males spell it Jessie.

Logikus wrote:

--

[Jesse]

And I accept your apology unconditionally. I also want to apologize for my hasty posts. I am human and I tend to get upset and post without thinking it through.
Especially when my posts are cut and chopped. I aunderstand that there are people 'on
my side of the fence' that do the same. That too does not make it right. I have respect for you too.
I was a little leery at first but you have proven to be a man of honor and integrity and refraining from
butchering other peoples post proves that to me. You are the first person who calls themselves a homosexual Christian that I can respect and expect a decent, honest reply.
Happy Thanksgiving
Jesse

curnon wrote:

--

[John De Salvio]

In article <3477C3...@LaserFX.0spam.com>, news...@LaserFX.0spam.com wrote:

> "...all the real Christians.." Does this mean that there are unreal
> christians?

It is frightfully evident that most of the "christians" who post on
alt.politics.homosexuality are unreal.

--
John

NOTE: "From" address is deliberately wrong.
My correct e-mail address is:

desa...@monitor.net

[John De Salvio]

In article <657pc0$bi6$4...@gte1.gte.net>, Jesse <jplummer.@gte.net> wrote:

> You immature sick little puppy....
>

Careful.

I think I just heard another crack start to form in your glass house.

[Apuleius]

Jesse <jplummer.@gte.net> wrote to and alt.politics.homosexuality:

== Perhaps you should get your head out of your ass and read my post! I am tired of people deliberatly misconstruing what I write. If thats how you spread your homosexuality propaganda, then so be
== it but leave me out of it. It just proves you gay people are liars and without remorse.
==

Wow! May we assume you're posting from alt.christnet?
Or is it alt.religion.christian?

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

That's all, folks.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

[OinK! ~(^@^)~]

Logikus wrote:
>
> On 23 Nov 1997 04:42:20 GMT, Jesse <jplummer.@gte.net> wrote:
>
> >I am a man. You obviously need help.
>
> Oh yeah right Ilike Im supposed to guess a person name Jesse is a man!
>

Sure you are!! Isn't Jesse Norman a man? The Spiritual-Opera Diva??
RevOinK!

[Jack Danger]

Jesse-

Excuse me, it was Christian hatemongers that made this women feel
guilty and full of self hate. Today, she believes God will not love
her as she was created. When dealing with homosexuals, Christians
show no compassion.

Go into a locker room full of straight men and ask, if they could
change their natural attraction to women and become gay. While
homosexuality is not the norm, the idea that gays can change their
sexual orientation with a wink and a prayer is foolish. Like
heterosexuals, their sexual orientation is apart of their being.

-JD

[Jack Danger]

Jasse

Propaganda? Gay people give personal testiments from their own
experience that homosexuality is not a choice. Yet, the Religious
Rights tells them their experience is wrong and that they can't trust
their emotions. It sounds like your side is the one spreading
propaganda.

-JD

>On 22 Nov 1997 23:06:21 GMT, Jesse <jplummer.@gte.net> wrote:

>Perhaps you should get your head out of your ass and read my post! I am tired of people deliberatly misconstruing what I write. If thats how you spread your homosexuality propaganda, then so be

[Jack Danger]

Curnon-

Accepting your homosexuality is a gift from God. I hope others will
read and accept that you can be a gay christian.

-JD

>On 22 Nov 1997 20:55:48 GMT, curnon <cur...@gte.net> wrote:

>Jesse,
>Reading your post brought tears to my eyes. The pain you must of gone through while growing up had to be immense. For a moment put yourself in that pain and you will understand some of the pain I felt growing up realizing I was gay. I prayed
>daily for the Lord to remove this curse or to let me die. Contemplated suicide on a number of occasions. At one point I decided that if there was a God he was a sadist and I did not want to have anything to do with him.
>Once I realize that the Lord truly loved me and that my homosexuality had nothing to do with that love my life turned completely around. I found a man that loved me for who I was and looked past my history of promiscuity. I stopped sexually
>acting out. Stopped drinking and drugging. I have now even stopped smoking.
>I know longer have the pain that was once caused by the belief that my homosexuality is a sin that I was going to die and go to hell for. If at some point the Lord leads me down a road that takes my lover away from me and places a woman in his
>place I will accept that because I accept what ever the Lord has in store for me. Could you do the same?
>Curnon
>When there is hatred in the heart there is no room for the Lord

[Jack Danger]

Jesse-

If religion is making you a better person than I am happy for you.
However, I disagree with you opinion that homosexuality is a sin.

-JD

>On 22 Nov 1997 23:15:03 GMT, Jesse <jplummer.@gte.net> wrote:

>curnon, you are absolutely right. The Lord loves regardless. I firmly believe that there are two sins that will pave your way to hell and thats foresaking Jesus and God and Suicide. God loves everyone regardless of there sexuality. I believe that
>homosexuality is a sin as well as fornication. I am guilty of fornication. I read in the Bible where it is a sin and I had to tell my partner of a year and a half that we cannot keep this up. It is hard to keep from falling back into it as I have a
>time or two. I understand how changing a lifestyle can be very hard. No one said it was easy. I am getting better at mine, been a week and a half so far. As far as my past goes, it was hard and very painful. I am on speaking terms with both parents
>and you guessed it, neither one wants to be in the same room as the other. But thats there problem. I have talked to both and they are hard-headed. I try not to dwell on it as a means of gaining pity, I dwell on it as a means of getting a stronger
>relationship with the Lord. He was all I had in those times.
>
>I hope you will not tear my post up and use only what you want to attempt to make me look bad. So far I haven't seen that from you but others have and that lowers thier credibility a 1000 times. Once a liar always a liar. I also offer you my
>prayers and not just for homosexuality but the other day to day trials and tribulations.
>
>Yours In Christ,
>Jesse

[Logikus]

On Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:32:28 GMT, dan...@nowhere.com (Jack Danger) wrote:

>Jesse-
>
>Excuse me, it was Christian hatemongers that made this women feel
>guilty and full of self hate. Today, she believes God will not love
>her as she was created. When dealing with homosexuals, Christians
>show no compassion.

Yeah, and they call themselves christian. They don't even seem to understand the
meaning of the word. Christian = Belief that Jesus Christ was the son of god. I
thought Jesus told people to love everyone, even those who had comitted a sin,
such as hookers and gays. (Although I cannot understand how the last one could
be a sin of any kind.) The real sinners are those attack gays without knowing
anything about them.

And before you start with your "you gay bastard" posts, I am straight.

[JTEM]

Major "OOPS" here...

Logikus <bugre...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Christian = Belief that Jesus Christ was the son of god. I thought Jesus
>told people to love everyone, even those who had comitted a sin,
>such as hookers and gays.

No. We're all "sinners," even those that claim to be christians. All of
us. No exceptions. None.

And, if I may add, when Jesus said "Let he who is without sin cast the
first stone" he didn't follow it up by chucking rocks at anyone. Not a
one.

John

--
JT...@SUNSPOT.TIAC.NET

[Jesse]

You are so confused. Christianity is not a religion. A religion seeks out God such as Islam.
Christianity has a relationship with God. In recent weeks, I have gotten closer to God, my life as a whole has changed for the better. I am a PC Tech, Networking. I have so many job offers now I
cannot make up my mind which one to take. All of this came u just last week. My health has gotten
better, my personal relationships with family and friends have all gotten better, all through the
power of prayer and my relationship with the Lord. My Lord says Go tell the word, you complain about me spreading my belief. Thank you, you have acknowledged that I am doing what my God
wants me too. I never became a willing participant in spreading sin.

lac...@webtv.net wrote:

> In article <657ohd$bi6$2...@gte1.gte.net>,

> Jesse <jplummer.@gte.net> wrote:
>
> > Perhaps you should get your head out of your ass and read my post!
>

> Oooh, now we're becoming hostile. Isn't that "Unchristian" behavior???
>

> > I am tired of people deliberatly misconstruing > what I write.
>

> You claim to be part of an Religious organization. An organization that
> claims to have a moral absolute for everything. An organization that
> claims to know the TRUTH about EVERYTHING because God the Creator tells
> you so in the bible, through tonges, through prayer, and in claims that
> God spoke to you on occasions. I see contradictions in your
> organization. And since your organization wants to force your morals and
> beliefs on us in the gay community, you are darn right that we are going
> to look for contradictions. We are going to check for your stability as a
> Religious organization, especially a religious organization that wants to
> force your beliefs and values on us politically as well as socially. If
> you christians don't know how people become Gay, then why should we trust
> you when you say anything else????
>

> > If thats how you spread your homosexuality

> > propaganda, then so be it. but leave me out of > it.
>
> You got yourself into it.

>
> > It just proves you gay people are liars and
> > without remorse.
>

--

[Head in the clouds but feet of clay]

we are expected to sin Deceitfully!!! nJust like most of the other
people in the world who lie about age, waist(waste) size and baldness.
It doesn't matter what you do so long as you never tell the truth.

[Head in the clouds but feet of clay]

even if you feel unnatural urges you are expected to NOT act on
them.....from a recent statement of faith, Lutheran Church Missouri
Synod, applies to all abnormal inclinations. "We are saved by a
determination not to allow sin to rule our lives"..they continue in
their statement
concerning homosexuality.
They also do not approve of Promise Seekers.
This is an effort by men to change their lives without accepting that
any change is from God alone. Of ourselves we can do nothing.

[Head in the clouds but feet of clay]

for what its worth:
Christ told us that not all people are cut out for marriage. If you
can't, or are unwilling to, make it last forever...don't do it, He has
been quoted
as saying. And St Paul says that all people should remain single, unless
they are burning with sexual desire....then and only then should they
consider marriage. There are no instructions for men who prefer men and
after 100's of warnings about straight sexual misconduct...there are
only 6 mentions of it in New Testament....

[Christopher W. Chase]

Jesse <jplummer.@gte.net> wrote in article <655637$aqe$1...@gte1.gte.net>...

> Your attempts to cause doubts in her life are pretty ruthless. If she
wants
> to change, let her change. After all, isn't that your platform, choice?
She
> chose to not sin. You choose to do whatever you choose, let her choose.

She made the accusation that pro-Lesbigay material that was posted
was intended to break up families.

She chose to post----others choose to reply.

Deal with it.

[Christopher W. Chase]

Jesse <jplummer.@gte.net> wrote in article <654utp$5j8$1...@gte1.gte.net>...

> Did you not just judge others and even resort to immature name calling?
> We DO NOT HATE ANYONE, we only speak our beliefs. If you do not like it.
stay
> away from us.

Then quit posting to alt.politics.homosexuality. Otherwise....expect others
to speak their mind when you speak yours.

Christopher

[Christopher W. Chase]

Head in the clouds but feet of clay <Alte...@webtv.net> wrote in article
<65brjm$l5c$1...@newsd-111.bryant.webtv.net>...

> even if you feel unnatural urges you are expected to NOT act on
> them.....from a recent statement of faith, Lutheran Church Missouri
> Synod, applies to all abnormal inclinations. "We are saved by a
> determination not to allow sin to rule our lives"..they continue in
> their statement
> concerning homosexuality.

Well, then---followers of these beliefs, like yourself,
have a difficult path to follow. If this is what your heart
speaks, then I wish you well.

> They also do not approve of Promise Seekers.
> This is an effort by men to change their lives without accepting that
> any change is from God alone. Of ourselves we can do nothing.
>

Do you mean Promise Keepers? I'm not aware of
an organization called "Promise Seekers."

Well- I can understand the negation of self ("Of ourselves we can
do nothing") in Religious Belief...its very powerful and affirming...

...But I hope that with regards to Political and Social Change
in This life, you will understand that Lesbigays must assume responsibility
for their own lives if they ever want to live peacefully and safely.

Christopher

heresy.at.mailexcite.com

[lac...@webtv.net]

In article <65b9ih$muj$2...@gte1.gte.net>,

Jesse <jplummer.@gte.net> wrote:
>
> You are so confused. Christianity is not a
> religion. A religion seeks out God such as
> Islam. Christianity has a relationship with
> God.

Which form of Christianity has the right relationship?? Methodist??
Catholics?? Baptist?? Lutherans? Mormons? pentacostals? Reformed
Baptists? Unitarist? Reformed Catholics? Episcopals? They all seem to
have different types of relationships with God, and they all say that the
other forms of Christianity are having the wrong relationship with God
(or NO relationship with God).

I'ts amazing how your "personal relationships" have caused wars over
the years, wars about who is having the "right" relationship. It's
amazing how you "personal relationship" has influenced laws over the
years. It's amazing how your "personal relationships" get together once
a year at a meetings to discuss how to keep Gays out of the millitary,
how to make sure that Gays are not protected in school, how to stop civil
rights laws, etc... It's amazing that your "personal relationship" has a
president (Ralph Reed), Vice President (Pat Robertson) secretaries and
treasurers. It's amazing how your "personal relationship" has big money
organizations like Christian Coalition, American Family Institute, Focus
on the Family, American Center for Law & Justice, Concerned Women of
America, and the Southern Baptist convention. It's amazing how your
"personal relationship" makes lots of money in big buildings decorated
with stained glass, influences politicians and laws with money made in
stained glass buildings, and gets recognized by the government as a
tax-free relationship. If you don't want to be recognized as a Religion,
then at least admit that you are an organization. Two or more people
define that. And I never hear of someones "personal relationship" having
lots of money and power over the political and social climate, (not to
mention 60% of the Republican party).

> In recent weeks, I have gotten closer to God, > my life as a whole has changed for the better.

Good. Then you have your "personal" relationship with God and you stop
forcing your "personal" relationship with God on other people especially
Gays and Lesbians by getting us fired from our jobs, kicked out of our
apartments, keeping us from serving in the millitary, keeping us from
being protected in school. Personal means "self" or "private". We don't
want you "personal" or "private" relationship making laws that taking
away our civil rights (not "Special rights") We don't want your
"personal" relationship keeping Gays out of the millitary. We don't want
your "personal" relationship getting people fired from their jobs just
because they are Gay. Perhaps the Government should stop giving you "tax
breaks" because of your "personal relationship"

> My Lord says Go tell the word, you complain
> about me spreading my belief. Thank you, you
> have acknowledged that I am doing what my God
> wants me too.

You call it "spreading", I call it FORCING!!

You are only politically "spreading" you beliefs on the people you
choose. I've read your King James bible (I assume that's what you use).
I know all the do's and don't of the bible. And there are many many more
beliefs that you have to "spread" other than Homosexuality. What about
"spreading" your belief on those who drink alcohol (TODAY, not 70 years
ago)? Or "spreading" your beliefs on those Heterosexuals who have sex
before getting married? Those who divorce? Women who cut their hair
short? Men who have long hair? Those who steal their brothers wife, or
sisters husband? Those who wear tattos? If you ever did "spread" your
"beliefs" on other "sinners", they were softballs compared to the big
rocks you throw at homosexuals.

_____________________________________________
POST ALL REPLIES in PUBLIC
E-MAIL is BLOCKED to stop SPAMMERS

[lac...@webtv.net]

In article <19971124171...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
tammy...@aol.com (TammyeBabe) wrote:

> In article <34787c3d....@news.inreach.com>, dan...@nowhere.com (Jack Danger) writes:
>
> >Go into a locker room full of straight men
> > and ask, if they could change their natural > > attraction to women and become gay. While
> > homosexuality is not the norm, the idea that > > gays can change their sexual orientation
> > with a wink and a prayer is foolish.

> This proves nothing. Go to a sex offender and > ask if they can change how they feel

You are comparing two consenting ADULTS to someone who takes advantage of
children.

> does that mean it should be ok to be a sex
> offender?

There you go again, comparing what two consenting adults do with someone
who takes advantage of children. Why don't you compare us to people who
want to divorce and remarry, Heterosexuals who want to have pre-marital
sex, people who want to wear tattos, people who want to drink beer ow
wine, people who use "profanity", and all the other things that you bible
says are 'sins" that are also legal and accepted in todays society and
that you Christians are not protesting against.

I am going to ask you some SIMPLE questions and I wan't straight
answers. I don't want you beating around the bush and dodging like you
and others have been doing for months. Why aren't Christians protesting
against divorce, against remarriage, against alcohol beverages, against
those who use "profanity". Why aren't Christians trying to keep those
who divorce out of the millitary, or those heterosexuals who have
pre-marital sex, or those who drink, wear tattos, or use "profanity' out
of the millitary????? Why aren't Christians trying to get schools to
teach that Heterosexuals who have pre-marital sex are "evil", "sinners",
or "sick"??? Why aren't christians trying to get schools to teach that
Divorcing is "wrong", and "evil". Or getting them to teach that drinking
alcohol or "strong drink" is evil, or that wearing tattos is "sick", and
"evil"??? Why aren't Christians trying to get Heterosexuals who live
together without being married kicked out of their apartments??? Or
getting divorcees kicked out of their apartments. Why aren't Christians
trying to get employers to fire divorcees, those who remarry, those
heterosexuals who have pre-marital sex, or those who drink after work.
Why aren't Christians trying to get commercials for alcoholic beverages
("strong drink" according to the bible) taken off of TV?? Why are
Christians boycotting Disney because of Ellen Degenereses Lesbianism, but
Christians are not boycotting any of Donald Trumps businesses? Donald
Trump is divorcing for the second time. Your bible says that "divorce" is
"sin"

> It's not a sin to want to abuse people,

Your church is still debating about that. I heard that "sinning" "in your
head" or "in your heart" or "lusting" in you heart means that you have
already committed that 'sin" Perhaps your church should get their stance
on that straighten out.

> And yes feelings can be changed.

Please explain why many Gays and Lesbians went to these groups that
claimed to change your sexual preference, prayed to God day and night
"Please Change Me!! Please change me!! I don't want to be Gay anymore,
PLEASE LORD!!" and after all that prayer and beging and pleading and
fasting, their sexual preference didn't change (Christians have been
dodging that question for years).

> People change their feelings and ways of life
> everyday.

And there are people who will allways be the same.

And since you mentioned child molesters, and then you stated that people
can change. Then please explain "MEGAN'S LAW"???

______________________________________________ PLEASE post ALL REPLIES in
PUBLIC. E-MAIL is BLOCKED to prevent SPAMMERS. PLUS, If you have nothing
to HIDE, you'd have no problem POSTING IT IN PUBLIC!!!
_______________________________________________

[Jesse]

Thank You, I did.
I dealt with the replies that were attempting to tell her that basically she
will always be gay and thats that. Thats not the case. When you choose a
lifestyle, you can change your mind. She did that and some homosexuals just
couldn't handle that.

Christopher W. Chase wrote:

--

[Christopher W. Chase]

Jesse <jplummer.@gte.net> wrote in article <65ddg3$321$1...@gte2.gte.net>...

> Thank You, I did.
> I dealt with the replies that were attempting to tell her that basically
she
> will always be gay and thats that. Thats not the case. When you choose a
> lifestyle, you can change your mind. She did that and some homosexuals
just
> couldn't handle that.
>
> Christopher W. Chase wrote:
>
> > Jesse <jplummer.@gte.net> wrote in article
<655637$aqe$1...@gte1.gte.net>...
> >
> > > Your attempts to cause doubts in her life are pretty ruthless. If she
> > wants
> > > to change, let her change. After all, isn't that your platform,
choice?
> > She
> > > chose to not sin. You choose to do whatever you choose, let her
choose.
> >
> > She made the accusation that pro-Lesbigay material that was posted
> > was intended to break up families.
> >
> > She chose to post----others choose to reply.
> >
> > Deal with it.
>

Nobody was or could have taken away her power of choice,
Unfortunately, by definition, she's still probably bisexual, and that's
just the way it is, Jesse. Nobody can change that. Not you,
and not I. One's got to acknowledge reality before one
can successfully deal with it.

Logic, Jesse, logic.

If a person can actually choose among different genders who to love
and be with, then this person is bisexual. By definition. No
two ways about it. Period. End of Story. That's what a
bisexual person is---someone who has the potential to
be attracted to both men and women. If you can "choose,"
then you've got to have the potential to do it in the first place.
i.e. you're bisexual.

And yes, this means that everyone who honestly feels its a
choice (assuming they are applying this standard to
themselves, as well) must also be bisexual. Everyone. Its
up to them to acknowledge it or not....nobody's going
to do it for you. Logic and Reality are no respecter
of personal prejudice.

Whatever path this person chooses to take, she's
better off knowing the facts about her situation
to begin with. Only when a person really knows
what's going on can a genuinely informed decision
be made.

p.s. I'm only cross-posting because I don't know which group
you read from. I'm reading from a.p.h ----this thread is
inappropriate for the other groups--let's keep future
postings in a.p.h.

--
Christopher W. Chase
heresy.at.mailexcite.com

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US. E-mailing denotes acceptance of these terms.
_________________________________________

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[curnon]

Jesse,
I think it is wonderful that you are spreading the Word but please be aware that when someone is not ready to listen it tends to turn them off, pushing them further from the Lord.
Curnon

[Allen Bagwell]

tammy...@aol.com (TammyeBabe) wrote:

>nospam-...@ups.edu (Allen F. Bagwell) wrote:

>In article <3475f34c...@newshost.ups.edu>, nospam-...@ups.edu (Allen
>F. Bagwell) writes:

>>So Eva, how is it that you know you are no longer a lesbian? Do you
>>desire men? Or are you married and sleeping with your husband as
>>"therapy" to keep your lesbian-oreinted feelings at bay?

>Why does she need a man to be happy?

Indeed, why. Apparently she does or else why would she have got one?

>She has God to depend on. At least she
>doesn't depend on someone else other than a spiritual relationship with the all
>mighty. It is sad to think that one must have "something" material or phsycal
>to be happy. I am sure she is happy with her husband and with God all things
>are possible

I never implied that a spiritual life by oneself could not be
fulfilling. That in completely aside from what is being discussed,
however. Eva said that

a) she used to be a lesbian,

b) she (apparently) isn't one anymore,

and c) homosexuals are trying to break up families.

I was responding to the first two, although I could say a lot about
"c" as well.

Would *you* care to stick to the subject?

>On Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:32:13 -0500, "Eva Jung" <ju...@ezaccess.net>
>wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>I was a lesbian. I made the choice to stop sinning.
>
>[snip]
>
>>I do not hate homosexuals. I used to be one, and still have many gay
>>friends. That does not make it any less of a sin, but I still love them
>>regardless.
>>
>>
>>Praying for you,
>>EMJ
>
>So Eva, how is it that you know you are no longer a lesbian? Do you
>desire men? Or are you married and sleeping with your husband as
>"therapy" to keep your lesbian-oreinted feelings at bay?
>
>Based on several accounts I've read of supposedly "cured" homosexuals,
>as well as reading knowledgable articles on the subject from groups
>such as the APA, etc., I would have to say that you most likely fall
>into one of two categories:
>
>a) you have a bisexual orientation, with the option of acting on
>sexual inclination to either gender. You've been convinced by your
>religious authorities that you were a lesbian and the fact that you
>now have a husband is *evidence* of a cure. (This is common enough.
>It is based on the erronous presumption that bisexuality doesn't exist
>and that gay and hetero identity is founded on sexual acts alone.) As
>a bisexual, it may be easy for you bury sexual attraction for women
>and/or feel fulfilled being with your husband -- which only further
>cements your ill-informed opinion of the subject.
>
>b) you are a lesbian, but you have repressed it under an onslaught of
>self-loathing brought on by religious guilt and the desperate need to
>conform to the wishes of your *chosen* religious group for whatever
>reasons (family acceptance, social standing, the need to feel loved by
>someone, etc., etc.). You may have been conveniently misled to
>believe that other problems in your life were the result of being a
>lesbian. You've been convinced that sexual orientation is the same as
>sexual activity, therefore you think that as long as you aren't having
>sex with a woman you aren't a lesbian. And your husband is a "cross
>that wards off the vampire."
>
>Option "c" is not really related to the first two but could also be
>plausible.
>
>c) you are simply a person on the Internet, with or without an agenda,
>male or female, masking yourself with a false identity and life story
>for a purpose known only to yourself. Lots of people do it,
>especially in chat rooms and other public forums. There are several
>books on the subject.
>
>
>
>Allen

>So you are saying it is impossible for a homosexual person to give up the
>lifestyle that one leads?

That depends on what you define as a "homosexual lifestyle" since I
have yet to meet any two homosexuals with the same lifestyle. Usually
when hardcore Christians get involved in a discussion like this you
might as well establish that what they mean by lifestyle is...

"Who you having sex with, in what variety of positions, and how
often?"

It's a shame that they reduce such a broad-based term to a purely
sexual meaning, but quite often they can't help themselves.

But even if we take lifestyle in those terms, life has still shown me
that not all homosexuals are alike even in that respect. Some are
promiscuous, some monogamous, some celibate, and some virgin. And as
with heterosexuals, many change among those categories with time and
circumstances.

> You are saying people can not change how they feel?

That depends on what you mean. I, like most people, can how I feel
about a rude person who humbly apologizes for an unintended insult.

But what you are REALLY saying is "can't people change who they are
physically attracted to?" And to this I believe the answer is
generally NO, and there is a good deal of legitimate psychological
literature published to support that conclusion. The Christian "you
can change through prayer" position has very little scientific support
and is just shy of being deemed unethical for mental health
professionals to advocate -- all due to LACK of evidence that one can
change sexual orientation and that trying to do so often does more
harm than good.

>What a sad statement on your part.

Not really. It isn't sad to not have control over every innate thing
about oneself. Do you think it sad that people can't control their
need to breathe?

>Did you know that there are murderers that
>do not murder again, thiefs that do not steal, adulteres that do not cheat on
>their wives again, liars that choose (oh, my gosh I said that "C" word) CHOOSE
>not to lie anymore.

So homosexuals are the equivalents of murderers, adulterers and liars,
huh? Why do you *choose* to compare apples and Volkswagons? Is it
just that much easier to compare gays to things that aren't
necessarily related to them than it is to compare them to straight
people?

>Maybe a homosexual can CHOOSE not to live a homosexual
>life? Wow! Think of it actually choosing how we live. it is almost
>unimaginable don't ya think (sarcastic remark)!

Hardly unimaginable, but again that depends on what you're talking
about.

I assure you that I am not living what you are probably thinking is
the "homosexual life" even tho I am a homosexual.

On the other hand, there are several people who have tried to leave
the homosexual lifestyle (Christain definition: promiscuous gay-sex
habits) only to find unhappiness or outright failure pretending to be
hets. The problem with the hardcore Christian approach is that it
ignores the scientific-psychological reality of the issue. It isn't
the sexual orientation that causes the problems, it is promiscuity and
other communicative or behavioral problems that make a person's life a
mess.

Get a clue, Tammy. Homosexuals CAN be monogamous and healthy.

>Many people have feelings including me to do things that are wrong, and as
>adults we choose not to indulge in some things. Why is it different for
>homosexuals?

To offer a *metaphor* -- because the unhappy, self-loathing homosexual
you set out to "cure" is usually being offered surgery as a solution
to a case of athlete's foot.

>Can they not choose to abstain?

Yes, they can. But many don't want to. And it would be unhealthy to
pressure people into that option. And lastly, they would STILL be
homosexuals.

Allen

[Jesse]

I never posted to there. It was crossposted. She never claimed to be bisexual.
The one thing she made clear was she chose not to sin and thats all. I never
put any other label on her. I only pointed to the labels that others put on
her. Just leave her alone and let her make her decisions. It is between her and
God.

Christopher W. Chase wrote:

--

[Jesse]

You knwo Curnon, you are right. I only post here. I never held a gun to anyones head and
forced their mouse to click on my posts. The bottom line is I am doing what my God wants and
if people in here want to stop and think about it and maybe open the Bible and read it before
making uneducated decisions, then great. If not, thats on them. I ain't Billy Gates, I cannot force
anything on people via pc's. They choose to click on my message headers. As far as crossposting goes, I respond to posts in their current state. I do not alter or edit the originating posts in any
way.
No one can honestly say that I post original messages innapropiately in ng's.

[John De Salvio]

In article <65ddg3$321$1...@gte2.gte.net>, Jesse <jplummer.@gte.net> wrote:

> Thank You, I did.
> I dealt with the replies that were attempting to tell her that basically she
> will always be gay and thats that. Thats not the case. When you choose a
> lifestyle, you can change your mind. She did that and some homosexuals just
> couldn't handle that.

What a load of ignorance!

What is your background on human sexuality?

What are you citing as evidence that we "choose" a "lifestyle"?

By the way, a "lifestyle" is all about income, the kind of home we
can afford, the kind of food and clothing we can afford, the kinds
of vacations we can afford, etc.

Homosexuality is NOT a "lifestyle," no matter how much you sanctimonious
frauds choos to call it that.

None of these so-called "ex-gay ministries has ever been able to
demonstrate, with peer review, that a single person has changed their
sexual orientation. NOT ONE.

Sure, they parade out these handful of "converted" people on talk
shows, but when the tough questions are asked, they fidget and
qualify.

They have not changed their orientation, only their behavior.

In other words, they CHOOSE to live a lie, mostly because of threats.

[Meeting of minds and comrades]

sometimes my caps lock is hit accidentally and I don't see that it's on.
I just noticed a couple days ago that a signal lights-up on my monitor
whenever the CAPS LOCK is on.
HOW do Lesbigay people live in any way but responsibally?(sp?) I have
always paid my own way until retiring on Social Security. I have also
gotten involved in helping others who aren't as comfortable as I But I
do NOT try to change the minds of a society that will never accept me
for a lifestyle that still frightens many people. I try not to be
frightening myself and when I finally admit to a straight friend that
I'm not (straigt)...they're really shocked. I see no reason to rub
people's noses in my orientation.

[Meeting of minds and comrades]

LACONIA: Most true Christian churches do teach against adultery, wife
swapping,gambling, etc.etc...The Lutheran Church I attend is re-writing
its Constitution which states quite emphatically that any member caught
in immoral conduct will be terminated unless they repent and turn from
their sin.
Perhaps you identify with the losers here who call themselves Bible
thumpers and you see them as True Christians. Which they think they
are....it's called delusional thinking.

[Ken Denny]

John De Salvio wrote:
>
> None of these so-called "ex-gay ministries has ever been able to
> demonstrate, with peer review, that a single person has changed their
> sexual orientation. NOT ONE.
>
> Sure, they parade out these handful of "converted" people on talk
> shows, but when the tough questions are asked, they fidget and
> qualify.
>
> They have not changed their orientation, only their behavior.
>
> In other words, they CHOOSE to live a lie, mostly because of threats.

And the real question is: How many of them STAY converted? All the ones
I've heard of either went back to being gay or COMMITTED SUICIDE.

Regards
Ken

[Jesse]

I feel homosexuality is a sin and I feel God loves all sinners. This should not encourage homosexuality or any other sin for that matter. Curnon is a pretty level headed person.
We do disagree on a subject or two but I can count on him to offer intelligent responses and
even ask well thought out questions. But homosexuality is a sin just as any other sin in the Bible.
I do not believe that God will strike down all homosexuals just because they are homosexuals.
But we all will one day stand before the presence of the Lord and answer for all of our sins, no matter how big or small they are.

Jack Danger wrote:

> Curnon-
>
> Accepting your homosexuality is a gift from God. I hope others will
> read and accept that you can be a gay christian.
>

> -JD
>

--

[lac...@webtv.net]

In article <65dpec$sl9$1...@gte1.gte.net>,
cur...@gte.net wrote:

> Jesse,

> I think it is wonderful that you are spreading > the Word but please be aware that when someone > is not ready to listen it tends to turn them
> off, pushing them further from the Lord.
> Curnon

No. Thats not it at all. I and many other Gay people are NOT INTERESTED
in you religion, organization, "personal relationship", or whatever you
call it. In fact, most Straight Heterosexual people are NOT INTERESTED in
you "gospel", but you Christians have left them alone, and still bother
us Gays & Lesbians.

You are worse than a annoying telemarketer except you don't use the
phone to bother us, you use the Government, politicians, school boards to
bother us by passing laws against us, stoping civil rights advancements
againts us, getting schools to teach children that Gays are "evil",
"sick" and "perverted", keeping Gay Bashing from being a "bias crime"
which if Gay bashing is not a "bias" crime, the basher who is usually
young would just get a slap on the wrist. You are trying to keep us from
serving in the millitary, even having the millitary ask people what their
sexual preference is when you claim that you don't want to hear about it.
You even encouraged a judge to take custody of a child from her Lesbian
mother and give the child to the Father, who is a murderer who killed his
first wife.

You don't bother Heterosexual people, you left them alone, you don't
try to pass laws saying that some of the things that they do are "evil",
or "sick", but still, you don't see most of them running to your
churches, or even to the liberal churches.

Your churches are still debating and can't even make up their mind on
certain issues. You can't even agree about how people become Gay. And
your still debating on wether or not women should be allowed to preach,
or if women should be silent during church service, or if it is O.K. to
divorce on the grounds of Adultery, Your churches are still debating on
wether or not people choose to be "saved", or if God makes a list of his
"elect" of who he makes them want to be "saved" (which means that if I am
not one of his "elect", I can never be "saved"). The churches debated
wether or not to condemn slavery, (they waited till 1995 to condemn it),
and the churches have even been debating on wether or not it's OK for
women to have abortions in cases of Rape, incest, or if her "life is in
danger". Churches are made up of individual people who come in with
their different opinions, thats why the rules chance ever so often.

Most Heterosexuals are NOT INTERESTED in your "gospel", and neither are
most Homosexuals. If you did ever leave us alone, most of us still
wouldn't run to your churches just as most Heterosexuals don't run to
your churches. WRE ARE JUST NOT INTERESTED!

Please take GAY & LESBIAN AMERICANS off you "CALLING" LIST!!!

______________________________________________
POST ALL REPLIES IN PUBLIC.
E-MAIL is BLOCKED tp prevent SPAMMERS.
PLUS, I don't want HOSTILE E-MAIL sent to me
privately, post ALL hostility in PUBLIC where
the "American People" can see it.

[Logikus]

On Tue, 25 Nov 1997 03:29:35 -0700, des...@monitor.net (John De Salvio) wrote:

>In article <65ddg3$321$1...@gte2.gte.net>, Jesse <jplummer.@gte.net> wrote:
>
>> Thank You, I did.
>> I dealt with the replies that were attempting to tell her that basically she
>> will always be gay and thats that. Thats not the case. When you choose a
>> lifestyle, you can change your mind. She did that and some homosexuals just
>> couldn't handle that.
>
>What a load of ignorance!
>
>What is your background on human sexuality?
>
>What are you citing as evidence that we "choose" a "lifestyle"?
>
>By the way, a "lifestyle" is all about income, the kind of home we
>can afford, the kind of food and clothing we can afford, the kinds
>of vacations we can afford, etc.
>
>Homosexuality is NOT a "lifestyle," no matter how much you sanctimonious
>frauds choos to call it that.
>

>None of these so-called "ex-gay ministries has ever been able to
>demonstrate, with peer review, that a single person has changed their
>sexual orientation. NOT ONE.
>
>Sure, they parade out these handful of "converted" people on talk
>shows, but when the tough questions are asked, they fidget and
>qualify.
>
>They have not changed their orientation, only their behavior.
>
>In other words, they CHOOSE to live a lie, mostly because of threats.
>

>--
>John
>
>NOTE: "From" address is deliberately wrong.
>My correct e-mail address is:
>
>desa...@monitor.net

I believe that just as Jesse's personality, which is stored in the brain, cannot
help but be obnoxious much like people can't being gay.

[Right from the Beginning]

On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Jack Danger wrote:

> Jesse-
>
> Excuse me, it was Christian hatemongers that made this women feel
> guilty and full of self hate. Today, she believes God will not love
> her as she was created. When dealing with homosexuals, Christians
> show no compassion.

jack, God didn't create her that way! If your a Bible believing
Christian, you know that God created Adam and Eve. And God blessed them
and called it good. Then Adam and eve sinned and we have fallen to our
debased state. Let's say I have the sin of lust, Are you saying that God
created me in that way? As a lustful person?

> Go into a locker room full of straight men and ask, if they could
> change their natural attraction to women and become gay. While
> homosexuality is not the norm, the idea that gays can change their

> sexual orientation with a wink and a prayer is foolish. Like
> heterosexuals, their sexual orientation is apart of their being.
It's not foolish if you believe in prayer and the power of God. Or do you
doubt his power? All things are possible with God remember. .

Shawn

[Mike Silverman]

In article <65er9s$auc$1...@newsd-113.bryant.webtv.net>, rende...@webtv.net

(Meeting of minds and comrades) wrote:

> ...The Lutheran Church I attend is re-writing
> its Constitution which states quite emphatically that any member caught

> in immoral conduct will be terminated...

Wow, that it one strict church!

--
Mike Silverman -- cubsfan at turnleft.com -- Lawrence, KS
http://www.turnleft.com/personal

"If you don't know where you want to go, we'll make sure you get taken" --
Microsoft advertisement, translated from Japanese

[lac...@webtv.net]

In article
<65er9s$auc$1...@newsd-113.bryant.webtv.net>,
rende...@webtv.net (Meeting of minds and
comrades) wrote:

> LACONIA: Most true Christian churches do
> teach against adultery, wife swapping,
> gambling, etc.etc...

You missed my point. I'm tired of sounding like
a broken record.
I wanted to know WHY the Christian Right is
not trying to outlaw divorce? Why the Christian
Right is not trying to outlaw Alcoholic
Beverages (TODAY, not 70 years ago). Why the
Christian Right is not trying to outlaw
gambling???
I wanted to know why the Christian Right is
not trying to get schools to teach that Divorce
is wrong, or that divorcees are "evil" and
"sick", or that those Heterosexuals who have
pre-marital sex are "evil' and "sick" and
"perverted,???
I wanted to know why isn't the Christian
Right trying to get schools to teach that
drinking Beer or Wine is a "sin" or "evil", or
that wearing tattos is "evil"??
I wanted to know why the Christian Right is
not trying to keep divorcees out of the
millitary? Or trying to keep heterosexuals who
have pre-marital sex out of the millitary?? Or
trying to keep those who drink beer or wear
tattos out of the millitary??
I want to know why the Christian Right is not
telling employers that it's OK to fire people
for having pre-marital sex, for being Divorced,
for wearing tattos, for drinking "strong drink"
even if they drink it after work in the privacy
of their own home??

I wanted to know why the Southern Baptists
are not starting a national boycott against any
of Donald Trumps mulit-billion dollar
businesses???
Donald Trump is getting a Divorce for the
second time, the same bible that you use to say
that Homosexuality is a "sin", also states that
"divorce" is a "sin".

This must be like the 5th time this week
that I have asked these SIMPLE questions, and
Christians keep dodging them and I NEVER get a
STRAIGHT answer. I'm tired of sounding like a
broken record.

Theres a big difference between teaching in
the privacy in your church that something is
"sin", and going out in the political scene and
inforcing what you believe is "sin" on others.
You force your beliefs poilitically on
Homosexuals, but you DO NOT shove you religious
beliefs down the throats of those Heterosexuals
who have premarital sex, those who divorce,
those who drink "strong drink", those who
gamble, those who wear tattos, etc...

I wish that you would keep your beliefs about
Homosexuality in the four walls of your church
the same way you keep you views about Divorce,
pre-marital sex, drinking "strong drink",
gambling, tattoo wearing, and other "sins" all
in the four walls of your church.

> The Lutheran Church I attend is re-writing its
> Constitution which states quite emphatically
> that any member caught in immoral conduct will

> be terminated unless they repent and turn from
> their sin.

Are the elders going to go to the members houses
and check up on them and make sure that they are
living a Holy Christian lifestyle? How about
showing up at their places of employment by
suprise? Then that would mean that the Luthernen
membership would start to decline.

-Anyone who is going through a Divorce would be
KICKED OUT.

-Anyone caught marring a man or woman who is
Divorced, even if it's your first marriage, you
will be KICKED OUT.

-Any unmarried girl or woman who gets pregnant
would be KICKED OUT!

-Any unmarried man who is found out to have
impregnated a woman he is not married to will be
KICKED OUT.

-Any church member who is caught with a lotto
ticket, caught playing lotto, caught going to
Atlantic City or Las Vegas, or is caught playing
or planning to play a Bingo game in the church
or at their home will be KICKED OUT.

-Anyone who is caught drinking alcohol or
smoking, even at their home would be KICKED OUT.

-If the church elders hear about any unmarried
church member having sex, they would be KICKED
OUT

-Any church member who does not spank his/her
children will be KICKED OUT.

-Any church member caught listening to heavy
Metal or gangsta Rap music with Satanic or
Sexually explicid lyrics will be KICKED OUT.

-Anyone who is wearing a visible tattoo must
have it removed, or they will be KICKED OUT.

-Anyone caught cursing or using "vulgarity"
would be KICKED OUT.

-Anyone caught expressing jealousy or expressing
that they wish the have something that someone
else has, they will be KICKED OUT.

-Anyone caught lying will be KICKED OUT.

The Lutheran Churches are going to have some
empty pews.

_______________________________________________
POST ALL REPLIES IN PUBLIC. NO PRIVATE REPLIES.
E-MAIL is BLOCKES to prevent SPAMMERS!
______________________________________________

[Mike Silverman]

In article <Pine.HPP.3.95.971125...@river.it.gvsu.edu>,

Right from the Beginning <ha...@river.it.gvsu.edu> wrote:

> On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Jack Danger wrote:
>
> > Jesse-
> >
> > Excuse me, it was Christian hatemongers that made this women feel
> > guilty and full of self hate. Today, she believes God will not love
> > her as she was created. When dealing with homosexuals, Christians
> > show no compassion.

> jack, God didn't create her that way! If your a Bible believing
> Christian, you know that God created Adam and Eve.

God also created Adam and Steve. And Eve and Maria.

God created us all as we are. Deal with it.

[Eva Jung]

If you're not interested, then why did you even read Jesse's post ?
Eva

lac...@webtv.net wrote in message <8804832...@dejanews.com>...

>POST ALL REPLIES IN PUBLIC.

>E-MAIL is BLOCKED tp prevent SPAMMERS.
>PLUS, I don't want HOSTILE E-MAIL sent to me
>privately, post ALL hostility in PUBLIC where
>the "American People" can see it.
>_____________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Eva Jung]

Magenta wrote in message <65g32b$9...@mtinsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
>To the topic of Eva Jung, she is using the words "former homosexual"
>to mean she has allowed her guilt, created by mankind, to tell her
>that her lust and love, created by God, should be suppressed. She has
>every right to live her life as she wants to, and I have every right
>to pity her for it.

Don't bother, I don't need your pity. Especially not if it's for having a
blessed relationship with my Lord Jesus Christ, and a loving and rewarding
relationship with my husband.

>Living in
>denial does not help oneself.

You're right. So stop.

Eva Jung

-------------* Just because YOU don't believe it, doesn't mean it's not
true. *---------------

>+----- Peace & Love, ----+- Magenta (dash) 7 (at) JUNO (dot) com ----+
>| /| /| _ _ _ _-|-_ |"There are more things in heaven and earth,|
>| / |/ |(_|(_|(/_| )|(_| |...Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." |
>|_________ _/ __________|_________________--[Hamlet Act I: Scene V]_|

[Eva Jung]

Do you think everyone is out to get you ?

lac...@webtv.net wrote in message <8804277...@dejanews.com>...

>In article <19971124171...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
> tammy...@aol.com (TammyeBabe) wrote:
>
>> In article <34787c3d....@news.inreach.com>, dan...@nowhere.com
(Jack Danger) writes:
>>

>> >Go into a locker room full of straight men
>> > and ask, if they could change their natural > > attraction to women and
become gay. While
>> > homosexuality is not the norm, the idea that > > gays can change their
sexual orientation
>> > with a wink and a prayer is foolish.
>

[Magenta]

Right from the Beginning <ha...@river.it.gvsu.edu> doth speak:

>jack, God didn't create her that way!

Then you believe in a limited god, not an infinite one.

>If your a Bible believing
>Christian, you know that God created Adam and Eve.

And Adam and Steve, and Ellen and Anne.

>And God blessed them
>and called it good. Then Adam and eve sinned and we have fallen to our
>debased state. Let's say I have the sin of lust, Are you saying that God
>created me in that way? As a lustful person?

Yes, no mater how you slice it, yes. God is the creator of sin.
If you believe in the creation myth as either a literal account or as
a metaphor, then yes, most definitely. God created Adam and Eve and
placed them in the garden by the tree of good and Evil. God, being
all-knowing, KNEW they were going to eat from it just as surely as if
he had placed the apples in their mouths.

Yes, God makes you both a lustful person and a loving person. Because
all things, sin and virtue, come from an all-powerful God. God also
made you with the free will to decide how to act on those lusts and
loves, but both the lusts and loves come from God.

To the topic of Eva Jung, she is using the words "former homosexual"
to mean she has allowed her guilt, created by mankind, to tell her
that her lust and love, created by God, should be suppressed. She has
every right to live her life as she wants to, and I have every right
to pity her for it.

>> Go into a locker room full of straight men and ask, if they could

>> change their natural attraction to women and become gay. While
>> homosexuality is not the norm, the idea that gays can change their

>> sexual orientation with a wink and a prayer is foolish. Like
>> heterosexuals, their sexual orientation is apart of their being.

>It's not foolish if you believe in prayer and the power of God. Or do you
>doubt his power? All things are possible with God remember. .

It is foolish to replace the power of God with the will of society.
It is foolish to pray to God to change God's work to conform to
mankind's insecurities. It is foolish to pray that you were not the
way you are, instead of learning to live with and enjoy life the way
God made you. God helps those who help themselves, you know. Living in

denial does not help oneself.

--