Et in Arcadia ego
Roger Squires
recent r.a.b thread, and now I note its Wimsey use in a story.
The on-line OED says it is a tomb inscription with a disputed
meaning, while the Divine Lady Spinster defines it as
'Et ego in Arcadia -- that is to say, one
doesn't enter the Church without undergoing
a classical education, and making the
acquaintance of much more worldly authors
even than Boccaccio.'
A Classical Dictionary I have refers to the worship
of Pan and Artemis by the pastoral Arcadians, and how they
considered themselves to be the most ancient people
in Greece, and I can kind of see how this might be a
phrase that someone like St. Augustine (or with a slight
snigger St. Gregorius, cf _The Good Sinner_) would utter
with a small sigh of remembrance. Anyway, I'm curious if
there is more info on this phrase and its associations.
Roger Squires
rsqu...@cyclops.eece.unm.edu
SubGenius
> Anyway, I'm curious if
> there is more info on this phrase and its associations.
>
>Roger Squires
+---------------------------------------SubG-------------------------------+
On of the King Louis (Louises? Louii?) around the time of the French
Revolution (XV or XVI, I believe) was fond of a painting of a bunch of
shepards standing around a tomb bearing that inscription ("In Acadia, I...")
The phrase also has special meaning for the various flavours of Mason,
which is why you hear this otherwise unquoteworthy phrase so much.
If you're interested, I could go into greater detail on the masonic
significance of the phrase, but if you're not real curious such a discussion
would be even more mind-pummelingly dull than my average post.
-SubG
Francis Muir
Roger Squires writes...
Anyway, I'm curious if there is more info on this
phrase and its associations.
On of the King Louis (Louises? Louii?) around the time of
the French Revolution (XV or XVI, I believe) was fond of a
painting of a bunch of shepherds standing around a tomb
bearing that inscription ("In Acadia, I...")
Fowler, bless his cotton socks, is positively effusive on this phrase.
First note that it is Arcadia, not Acadia. The phrase translates to
"Even in Arcadia, there am I [Death]."
Now to Fowler. It is an inscription on a tomb in a painting by Guercino
[1591--1666] and probably dates from 1623. Bartolommeo Schidoni [1560
--1616] wrote "Et ego in Arcadia vixi [I too have lived in Arcadia].
Poussin, Reynolds, and others used this phrase in their paintings.
E. Panofsky discusses the phrase in *PHILOSOPHY and HISTORY: Essays
Presented to E. Cassirer*, 1936. Fiar's fair; you have to check out
Panofsky yourself.
I chose the phrase as a Subject line for its connections to Cajun and
graveyards, both staples of New Orleans. It has special meaning for me
from its use by Evelyn Waugh in *BRIDESHEAD REVISITED* and Dorothy Sayers
in *GAUDY NIGHT*.
Roger, you may have been thinking of Louis XIII and one of the several
paintings by Poussin entitled "Shepherds of Arcadia". The French
Revolution was still a long way off.
Dr. Nosebody
Burt Voorhees
>Roger Squires
>rsqu...@cyclops.eece.unm.edu
It, i.e., this phrase, shows up quite often
in a series of books by Robert Anton Wilson;
the Historical Illuminitus. Excellent books
for some fun.
The phrase is used as a code phrase in
various levels of Masonic initiation,
or at least that is the impression I got
from reading Wilson, who is the great
conspiracy theorist, and knows about
such things. The reference would seem
to be to the attainment of certain states
of consciousness.
So, Et in Arcadia Ego? I.e., have you
attained the state coded by Arcadia? Or,
without the question mark, a claim to
have done so. In any case, I doubt that
it has to do with entering the Church,
but Madonna might be there already.
bv
Roger Squires
>
>Fowler, bless his cotton socks, is positively effusive on this phrase.
>First note that it is Arcadia, not Acadia. The phrase translates to
>
> "Even in Arcadia, there am I [Death]."
>
>Now to Fowler. It is an inscription on a tomb in a painting by Guercino
>[1591--1666] and probably dates from 1623. Bartolommeo Schidoni [1560
>--1616] wrote "Et ego in Arcadia vixi [I too have lived in Arcadia].
>Poussin, Reynolds, and others used this phrase in their paintings.
>E. Panofsky discusses the phrase in *PHILOSOPHY and HISTORY: Essays
>Presented to E. Cassirer*, 1936. Fiar's fair; you have to check out
>Panofsky yourself.
>
Ok, I'll trot over to the library tomorrow.
>I chose the phrase as a Subject line for its connections to Cajun and
>graveyards, both staples of New Orleans. It has special meaning for me
>from its use by Evelyn Waugh in *BRIDESHEAD REVISITED* and Dorothy Sayers
>in *GAUDY NIGHT*.
>
Hmmm, I thumbed pretty carefully thru _GN_ and did not
see this phrase, at least not italicized or in chap. headings.
I saw it in _The Undignified Melodrama of the Bone of Contention_,
which quote seems to have no connection with death.
(I did see lots of phrases like "brood of spinsters" and
"dessicated and elderly virgin," though I also note that
despite many musings on the aberrant psychology of a Women's
College by Ms. Vane, the murderer was not among these...)
(And Chapter III has a good quote from Bacon that looks
like something Dick Diver should have paid attention to :) )
>Roger, you may have been thinking of Louis XIII and one of the several
>paintings by Poussin entitled "Shepherds of Arcadia". The French
>Revolution was still a long way off.
>
You mean SubG, of course. So far I see two meanings in
the phrase, one referring to death, one to Arcadia as
a general reference to Paganism.
> Dr. Nosebody
Roger Squires
rsqu...@cyclops.eece.unm.edu
James P. H. Fuller
>In _Murder Must Advertise_, we find that Wimsey's
>middle names are Death Bredon. Any other instances
>of Death or some synonym as a person's name?
Death Smith. Manufactures a deadly organic peanut butter
-- jf
Nichael Cramer
>san...@ecrc.de (Sanjiva Prasad) writes:
>> Any other instancesof Death or some synonym as a person's name?
> Death Smith. Manufactures a deadly organic peanut butter
Miss Thanatos in _The Loved One_.
Morticia Addams.
Mort Saul.
N
"I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds..."
Roger Squires
>
>and then mention Dorothy Sayers' _Gaudy Night_.
>In _Murder Must Advertise_, we find that Wimsey's
>middle names are Death Bredon.
>
Earlier than this even, unless I'm missteakn'.
_The Bibulous Business of a Matter of Taste_
which I just finished, is from 1928 I believe,
though it is difficult to be sure in this editino
of all the Wimsey stories ($2 wota buy!), vs. 1933.
Watch the xposting, that's a zeleny. :)
>- Sanjiva
Roger Squires
rsqu...@cyclops.eece.unm.edu
Norman H Redington
James P. H. Fuller
>|> >In _Murder Must Advertise_, we find that Wimsey's
>|> >middle names are Death Bredon. Any other instances
>|> >of Death or some synonym as a person's name?
>|>
>|> Death Smith. Manufactures a deadly organic peanut butter
>|>
>|> -- jf
>|>
>I believe that's _Deaf_ Smith, a county in Texas.
No, no. Death Smith it is. They're about to branch out into
poliomargarine, a crippling butter substitute.
-- jf
SubGenius
>(SubGenius) writes:
>>The phrase also has special meaning for the various flavours of Mason...
>>If you're interested, I could go into greater detail on the masonic
>>significance of the phrase, but if you're not real curious such a
>>discussion would be even more mind-pummelingly dull than my average
>> post.
>saying: "The only thing worse than a totally ignorant person is a
>person who has read ONE book on a topic, and now thinks himself an
>expert."
+-----------------------------------SubG------------------------------------+
..unless its a chump in a frilly apron who thinks he's hep to the mysteries
of the universe and the SECRET HISTORY of the world.
+-----------------------------------SubG------------------------------------+
> SubG has clearly been reading Biagent & Leigh's "Holy Blood,
>Holy Grail", and swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. If he can find
>even *one* actual Masonic use of this phrase, I'll publicly apologize.
>Until he does, I contend that he's a gullible fool (B & L are pulling
>the wool over *his* eyes).
+--------------------------------------SubG----------------------------------+
I wish that it was clear to me, as I have no recollection of ever having
read the book. I have seen it referred to and quoted at length, however.
You are apparently asserting that a) you're not one of the sorts of Mason
for whom the phrase has any meaning and b) that you're privvy to all the
rites and practices of all kinds of Mason to ever have existed.
While I'll go along with the former, I find the latter difficult to believe.
When it rains, it pours.
+--------------------------------------SubG----------------------------------+
[deletia]
> Peter Trei
> Master, Wilder Lodge AF&AM
> Leominster, MA
> Editor: Masonic Digest
+---------------------------------------SubG----------------------------------+
[this space intentionally left blank]
"Everything you know
is wrong,"
Yours etc.,
SubGenius
SubGenius
To explain (?) :
Let's see--
Well, you've probably heard the phrase, "Oh lord my god, is there no help
for the widow's son?" in conjunction with the Masons. There's a famous
John Dillinger story built around this, even.
Anyway, the "widow's son" bit comes from 1 Kings 7:13, in which Hiram of
Tyre is employed by Solomon to build part of the Temple. Remember that
Masons are of two types--practical masons, who build things (masonry being,
originally, the art of stonecutting) and experimental masons, who are into
the secret handshake schtick. Of importance to qabalists out there, the
first things of interest that Hiram builds are two bronze pillars, one
called Jachin ("God Establishes") and the other called Boaz ("He Comes With
Power"). The significance of these pillars isn't made clear in the bible,
but is alluded to in 2 Kings 11:14 and 23:3.
The Templars come into the picture some years later, in 1118, as an
organization ostensibly dedicated to making the Holy City (EVERYbody's
holy city, Jerusalem), and particularly the Temple of Solomon safe for xian
pilgrims. They have control of the Temple for some time, and allegedly
discover some REALLY COOL STUFF while excavating the basement of the ancient
ruins.
The Templars, however, aren't real popular. Apparently they've got this
problem with buggery and worship this god-thing named Baphomet (nudge-nudge)
on the side. This doesn't sit just real well with the religious
establishment of the time, and the Templars sort of scatter and form little
strongholds in various locations.
One of these places is Provence, France. Provence was a providence in the
south-east corner pre-Revolution France and was the seat of the Comte de
Champagne, which meant the central government of France kept a pretty
much hands-off attitude.
(As an allegedly interesting historical aside, it was during the siege of
Bezier in the midst of a crusade against the Albigensian heretics that,
when asked by his commander how to instruct his soldiers to differentiate
between the heretics and the orthodox xians, Papal Legate Arnold Almaric
made the comment, "Tuez-les tous! Dieu reconnaitra les siens!" ("Kill
them all! God will know his own"), which is commemorated, of course, in
all them there weekend-warrior shirts proclaiming "Kill them all and let
god sort them out!"
The other interesting footnote for Provence is that the Marquis de Sade
resided there for some time.)
This meant that Provence was place where the Templars and clandestine
societies in general flourished until, in the early 1300's, all the Templars
were rounded up, a bunch executed, and most of the rest given sentences of
life imprisonment for heresy. A few repented and were pardoned but when
de Molay was burned at the stake in 1314, the Templars were more or less
disintigrated.
Now, the reason why I bring this up is that a painting done by Poussin
entitled "The Sheperds of Arcadia" was a favourite of Louis XV (reigned
from the early 1700's [1715?] until 1774). This painting, as I mentioned
earlier (although I transported it from ancient Greece to Nova Scotia by
a simple typo of one letter), depecits several sheperds standing near a
tomb bearing the inscription "Et In Arcadia Ego" ("And in Arcadia, I...").
The facinating bit is that the landscape is recognisable (allegedly--I wouldn't
recognise it) as being part of Provence.
This causes some people to say that Louis XV was a Mason, or that he at very
least knew more about the Masonic activity occuring in France than he let on.
It is, of course, a reasonably well-documented assumption that the various
Masonic lodges in France had a pivotal role in getting the French Revolution
going in 1789. (When I commented that the painting was important "around the
time of the French Revolution" I was unsure as to whether it was Louis XV
or Louis XVI who had the painting. You'll remember that Louis XVI was
beheaded in the early years of the Revolution [1792?], so I don't think my
generalization was that far off base.)
The Masonic connection is (in addition to the Templar association, which is
non-trivial, although a Mason generally doesn't discover this until he is
of the thirty-second degree) that the phrase "Et in Arcadia ego" is used by
Masons to reflect their philosophy of historical perception.
In addition, it is an anagram of "I tego arcana dei" ("Go, I hide the secrets
of god."), which was inscribed I believe in a temple built by somebody-or-
other Malatesta, the structure and art of which contained a great deal of
Masonic symbolism.
The phrase itself dates back I dunno how far, but pre-dates the Guercino
painting. Allegedly it was originally written on the tomb of the OTHER
widow's son, but I've no idea when it first appeared in common usage (if
Guercino's paintings can be considered `common usage.')
That's about as good a summary as I can supply off the top of my head.
I'm afraid that I don't generally carry a reference library of Masonic
lore around with me.
I wish my news feed
would stop playing games,
Yours etc.,
SubGenius
Marc B.A. Read
>
> "Even in Arcadia, there am I [Death]."
>
>middle names are Death Bredon. Any other instances
>of Death or some synonym as a person's name?
>
Sorry to bring in an example not from literature, but real life... the
current bursar of Jesus College, Oxford is (I believe) Brigadier De'ath.
Note the the ' is an apostrophe, not an attempt at an accent! The name
is rare but not unique, and is pronounced Dee Ath.
Yours,
Marc
Mike Godwin
<Disclosure and discussion of Masonic history deleted>
I'm sorry about this, Subby, but you knew the rules of the lodge
when you joined--now we have to kill you.
--Mike, 64th degree
--
Mike Godwin, |"Doubt isn't the opposite of faith; it is an
mnem...@eff.org| element of faith."
(617) 864-0665 |
EFF, Cambridge | --Paul Tillich
Neil Bernstein
: In article <1992Dec1.1...@ecrc.de> san...@ecrc.de (Sanjiva Prasad) writes:
: >Yes, bless Fowler. You wrote:
: >
: > "Even in Arcadia, there am I [Death]."
: >
: >and then mention Dorothy Sayers' _Gaudy Night_.
: >In _Murder Must Advertise_, we find that Wimsey's
: >middle names are Death Bredon. Any other instances
: >of Death or some synonym as a person's name?
: >
: >- Sanjiva
I don't remember the writer or the book because both were so mediocre, but he
created a forgettable character called "Todd Venedig" (ie, Mann's _Death In
Venice_).
- Neil Bernstein
Struggling Classics Major
at least until modern fiction improves
SubGenius
>SubGenius writes:
><Disclosure and discussion of Masonic history deleted>
>I'm sorry about this, Subby, but you knew the rules of the lodge
>when you joined--now we have to kill you.
>--Mike, 64th degree
+-----------------------------------------SubG-------------------------------+
Ha.
A century or so ago, I would've had cause to worry along those lines, but
the Masonic lodges of today are to the historical lodges as Fred Flintstone's
Buffalo lodge is to the R.R. et A.C. (Although a few years ago in a large
city in central Texas, a couple lads belonging to an orginization connected
with the latter boy's club [who had developed a fondness for me reminiscent
of the fraternal feelings between the Earl of Sandwich and the Abbey of St.
Francis] took enough exception to some things I'd said about their outfit
in an underground paper I was then writing (and editing) for that I required
medical attention.)
[pause]
But the calibre and disposition of today's Masons (like certain relatives of
mine) makes any claims of `hidden hands, moving governments' seem, toady,
ludicrous.
See also the Mason skit on Monty Python's Flying Circus ("And now let's
see that secret handshake again is super slow-motion...").
-SubG
Anita Graham
> Yes, bless Fowler. You wrote:
>
>
> In _Murder Must Advertise_, we find that Wimsey's
> middle names are Death Bredon. Any other instances
> of Death or some synonym as a person's name?
It was pronounced `deeth' I believe. Possibly mentioned in "Murder Must
Advertise".
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anita Graham
an...@mincom.oz.au
Gary Stonum
In a previous article, spb...@rigel.tamu.edu (SubGenius) says:
[lots about Masonic lore, including this bit:]
>
>The Templars come into the picture some years later, in 1118, as an
>organization ostensibly dedicated to making the Holy City (EVERYbody's
>holy city, Jerusalem), and particularly the Temple of Solomon safe for xian
>pilgrims. They have control of the Temple for some time, and allegedly
>discover some REALLY COOL STUFF while excavating the basement of the ancient
>ruins.
>
>The Templars, however, aren't real popular. Apparently they've got this
>problem with buggery and worship this god-thing named Baphomet (nudge-nudge)
>on the side. This doesn't sit just real well with the religious
>establishment of the time, and the Templars sort of scatter and form little
>strongholds in various locations.
OBbook: Isn't this 17% of the plot of Ishmael Reed's _Mumbo Jumbo_,
which I used to want to think was fiction?
Gary Stonum
Joan Shields
>In a previous article, spb...@rigel.tamu.edu (SubGenius) says:
>[lots about Masonic lore, including this bit:]
>>The Templars, however, aren't real popular. Apparently they've got this
>>problem with buggery and worship this god-thing named Baphomet (nudge-nudge)
>>on the side. This doesn't sit just real well with the religious
>>establishment of the time, and the Templars sort of scatter and form little
>>strongholds in various locations.
Here I go again, the resident champion of the Knights Templar. The above
is nothing but nasty rumor and inuendo started by a King of France and
a Pope who wanted to discredit the Templars so they could confiscate all
their wealth. The Templars were a respectable and very disciplined order
who brought, among other things, a banking system that linked Paris and
Jerusalem. A pilgrim could deposit money in Paris and withdrawl it in
later when they got to Jerusalem. The Hospitalers, who later took over
much of the Templars' property in England, were a cowardly lot who aided
in the destruction of their brother order for cash and some real estate.
When the last Grand Master of the Knights Templar was burned alive at the
stake he made a phophecy that both the Pope and the King would join him in
Judgement within a year. Both men did die within the year. Poor King, he
wanted to destroy the Templars to refill his treasury but didn't live to
enjoy the fruits fo his greed.
>OBbook: Isn't this 17% of the plot of Ishmael Reed's _Mumbo Jumbo_,
>which I used to want to think was fiction?
It is fiction.
Yours in wet fishes and Knights Templars,
Joan
Jack Campin
[ in a whole bunch of stuff about Masons and Templars ]
> Now, the reason why I bring this up is that a painting done by Poussin
> entitled "The Sheperds of Arcadia" was a favourite of Louis XV (reigned
> from the early 1700's [1715?] until 1774). This painting, as I mentioned
> earlier (although I transported it from ancient Greece to Nova Scotia by
> a simple typo of one letter), depecits several sheperds standing near a
> tomb bearing the inscription "Et In Arcadia Ego" ("And in Arcadia, I...").
> The facinating bit is that the landscape is recognisable (allegedly--I
> wouldn't recognise it) as being part of Provence.
> This causes some people to say that Louis XV was a Mason, or that he at very
> least knew more about the Masonic activity occuring in France than he let on.
This mentions of Poussin reminds me of a book whose author and title I have
forgotten. It was about occult influences in art; it traced rather
specific encoded occult messages through paintings from the Renaissance to
Mondrian. These were sometimes symbols, sometimes geometric figures traced
out by significant points in the picture. Poussin was apparently very fond
of this kind of stunt. I remember the book as being a lot more convincing
than most such "hidden-message" stuff (the "subliminal seduction" books on
advertising or New Age books about ley lines being examples of the less
convincing). In most cases he could back up the iconographic
interpretations with external evidence about what the painter was known to
have been involved in. Does anyone know what this book was?
The doomiest piece of Masonic symbolism I've seen is the mausoleum of the
Dukes of Hamilton, a few miles south of here. Looks like a giant coffee
grinder and was intended to house the duke who commissioned it in an
Egyptian sarcophagus he'd looted (the problem was the sarcophagus turned
out to be too small, I think they cut his feet off to fit). It has one of
the longest echo times of any building anywhere. The guide who showed me
round said he wasn't a Mason himself and didn't know what all the
sculptural imagery meant, but that the Rosicrucians had borrowed the place
for a ritual a few months before. The Dukes of Hamilton have always been
Masons. Conspiracy content: Rudolf Hess flew on purpose to the estate of
the Duke of Hamilton.
Whil we're on book-tomb connections: according to this month's "Fortean
Times", someone recently broke into the sealed tomb holding John Evelyn and
his wife and stole their mummified heads. The police suspect some sort of
Satanic connection. Your competition for this week: rewrite part of
Evelyn's diaries in the style of a satanic-horror novel or the other way
round...
--
-- Jack Campin room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: ja...@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet BITNET: via UKACRL UUCP: ja...@glasgow.uucp
SubGenius
+------------------------------------------------SubG--------------------------+
See also: _Foucault's Pendulum_.
And, for that matter, _Jerusalem Poker_. And various books by Robert Anton
Wilson.
But anything you read in a novel labeled `fiction' is likely untrue (and
flagrantly so at that). Although most writers don't deliberatly indulge in
obfuscation (Wilson being an exception) by presenting fact and fabrication
identically, the writer who's actually an expert (or Anne Elk, for that matter)
on dinosaurs...[pause]...on the period in which the their stories are allegedly
set is a rare animal.
Take any history presented in a novel cum grano salis.
Then there was a man who
claimed nothing was true...
Yours etc.,
SubGenius
SubGenius
[deletia: buggery and Baphomet]
>Here I go again, the resident champion of the Knights Templar. The above
>is nothing but nasty rumor and inuendo started by a King of France and
>a Pope who wanted to discredit the Templars so they could confiscate all
>their wealth.
[deletia: data]
>
>Yours in wet fishes and Knights Templars,
>
>Joan
+-----------------------------------------SubG---------------------------------+
I'll agree with your assessment of the motivations underlying the anti-Templar
pogroms, but I don't think that they were the babes in swaddlin' clothing you
seem to want to portray them as.
There's a bit of a problem in assuming that the Templars (or any group for that
matter) are philisophically homogeneous.
-SubG
Joan Shields
>Joan Shields writes...
>[deletia: buggery and Baphomet]
>>Here I go again, the resident champion of the Knights Templar. The above
>>is nothing but nasty rumor and inuendo started by a King of France and
>>a Pope who wanted to discredit the Templars so they could confiscate all
>>their wealth.
>[deletia: data]
>+-----------------------------------------SubG--------------------------------
>I'll agree with your assessment of the motivations underlying the anti-Templar
>pogroms, but I don't think that they were the babes in swaddlin' clothing you
>seem to want to portray them as.
Come on, SubG, I never said they were saints I just said that they were
much maligned and undeservedly so. You've taken my defense of them as an
extreme (not necessarily your fault as rec.arts.books has this strange
power to push everything and everybody to extremes) when all I was saying
was that much of the bad press concerning the Templars was propaganda for
the sake of greed.
If you're going to present rumor as fact - if you're going to make such
sweeping generalizations about a group of people you're going to have to
expect someone to take exception.
>There's a bit of a problem in assuming that the Templars (or any group for that
>matter) are philisophically homogeneous.
Exactly my point. So clever of you to point that out.
Yours in wet fishes and extreme generalizations,
Joan
Peter Trei
>>(SubGenius) writes:
>>>The phrase also has special meaning for the various flavours of Mason...
>>>If you're interested, I could go into greater detail on the masonic
>>>significance of the phrase, but if you're not real curious such a
>>>discussion would be even more mind-pummelingly dull than my average
>>> post.
OK, SubG, I AM interested. Please go into mind-numbing detail,
and cite any primary sources. Regard this as a challenge.
>> I've been trying to think of a pithy, .sigfile-worthy way of
>>saying: "The only thing worse than a totally ignorant person is a
>>person who has read ONE book on a topic, and now thinks himself an
>>expert."
>..unless its a chump in a frilly apron who thinks he's hep to the mysteries
>of the universe and the SECRET HISTORY of the world.
Apparently, you regard yourself as so informed. On what basis do
you feel that you have better sources than I?
>> SubG has clearly been reading Baigent & Leigh's "Holy Blood,
>>Holy Grail", and swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. If he can find
>>even *one* actual Masonic use of this phrase, I'll publicly apologize.
>>Until he does, I contend that he's a gullible fool (B & L are pulling
>>the wool over *his* eyes).
>I wish that it was clear to me, as I have no recollection of ever having
>read the book. I have seen it referred to and quoted at length, however.
Great - now you're citing secondary and tertiary sources as
gospel.
>You are apparently asserting that a) you're not one of the sorts of Mason
>for whom the phrase has any meaning and b) that you're privvy to all the
>rites and practices of all kinds of Mason to ever have existed.
>While I'll go along with the former, I find the latter difficult to believe.
SubG, my original challenge stands: provide a Masonic reference to
the use of this phrase. So far, all you have done is quote, at second
hand or worse, the Von Danikins of historical writing.
>> Peter Trei
>> Master, Wilder Lodge AF&AM
>> Leominster, MA
>SubGenius
In <2DEC1992...@rigel.tamu.edu> spb...@rigel.tamu.edu (SubGenius) writes:
>To explain (?) :
My (ptrei's) summation of SubG's complex post (I don't agree with all this,
but it's too long to quote in full):
1. Masons originated with building of King Solomon's Temple.
2. Templars, in 12C, allegedly discover "cool stuff" in ruins of KST.
3. Templars are unpopular due to allegations of various nasty practices,
scatter and form strongholds. One of these is in Provence, France.
4. In early 1300's Templars are suppressed.
5. Three hundred and fifty years later, Poussin paints "The Sheperds
of Arcadia", which includes "Et in Arcadia Ego..." on a tomb. The
background skyline *may* match a location in Provence.
6. Louis XV allegedly liked this painting.
back to full quotes...
>This causes some people to say that Louis XV was a Mason, or that he at very
>least knew more about the Masonic activity occuring in France than he let on.
Does anyone besides me have a problem with this? The connection
seems unbelievably tenuous: Louis may have liked a painting which may
have been painted in the same area where, centuries earlier, the
Templars lived, and who may have found stuff left by Masons in KST. If
anyone thinks that this is strong evidence that Louis was involved
with the Masons, then they're beyond help.
>It is, of course, a reasonably well-documented assumption that the
>various Masonic lodges in France had a pivotal role in getting the
>French Revolution going in 1789.
First, what's a "well-documented assumption"? To me, an
assumption is a belief in the absence of evidence. Second, if the
Masons were behind the French Revolution (very doubtful, seeing as
they suffered so badly during it), why would Louis be involved with
them? A deathwish? You are not making sense.
SubG, I once again ask you to name your sources, and give me
reason to believe they are trustworty.
Peter Trei
pt...@mitre.org
Roger Squires
>... (I have though seen fishermen
>in Greece blowing on conch-horns, like Triton, to announce their catch
>when they landed in the harbor.)
Which reminds me :) of a classic SF: _War With the Newts_,
by Capek, in which Tritons are manifold :)
Also, there is another mention of 'the phrase in question'
in _Pale Fire_, the comment to line 629:
("Even in Arcady am I," says Dementia, chained
to her gray column.)
Just saw that one last nite!
Roger Squires
rsqu...@cyclops.eece.unm.edu
SubGenius
>>There's a bit of a problem in assuming that the Templars (or any group for
>>that matter) are philisophically homogeneous.
>Exactly my point. So clever of you to point that out.
>Yours in wet fishes and extreme generalizations,
>Joan
+------------------------------------------SubG-------------------------------+
Well, included in the above assumption (or revocation of assumption) is that
while not ALL the Templars were into buggery or Baphomet, there certainly
were ones who were.
If, say, the pope took up buggery, then one would (in the world of rhetoric,
which is to say, the world of looking down one's nose at others) have some
cause to ramble on about them R.C.'s and their buggery because, unfortunately I
suppose, groups tend to be judged by their more prominent members [cough], and
the prominent ones would be the loudest ones.
For instance, someone new to r.a.b. might think that we're all longwinded
pompus asses, whereas the initiate knows that that's just McCarthy.
Yours etc.,
SubGenius
SubGenius
> OK, SubG, I AM interested. Please go into mind-numbing detail,
>and cite any primary sources. Regard this as a challenge.
+--------------------------------------SubG--------------------------------+
If you require primary sources, it'll take a couple weeks for me to provide
them [because a) I have other obligations outside of hunting through
volumes looking for a quote for r.a.b. and b) I don't carry around that
sort of material with me, and the college and local libraries are worse
than useless in these matters].
+--------------------------------------SubG--------------------------------+
>
>>> I've been trying to think of a pithy, .sigfile-worthy way of
>>>saying: "The only thing worse than a totally ignorant person is a
>>>person who has read ONE book on a topic, and now thinks himself an
>>>expert."
>
>>..unless its a chump in a frilly apron who thinks he's hep to the mysteries
>>of the universe and the SECRET HISTORY of the world.
> Apparently, you regard yourself as so informed. On what basis do
>you feel that you have better sources than I?
+--------------------------------------SubG-----------------------------------+
Not at all. You take the standpoint of negative proof--that there is no
evidence to support the claim that the phrase `Et in Arcadia ego' has no
Masonic connection.
In order to disprove that, I only have to have one reference that you do not,
or credit one that you choose to discredit. That means that (at bare minimum)
I could get by with knowing only one source.
In order to prove your claim, you have to have ALL references on the subject
and demonstrate that there is no occurance of said phrase in any of them.
Negative proof is much more difficult than positive proof, and therefore the
substantiation behind it is much more difficult.
+---------------------------------------SubG----------------------------------+
>>I wish that it was clear to me, as I have no recollection of ever having
>>read the book. I have seen it referred to and quoted at length, however.
>
> Great - now you're citing secondary and tertiary sources as
>gospel.
+-------------------------------------SubG----------------------------------+
I wouldn't cite any history as `gospel,' in the literal or figurative
meanings of the word. I wasn't citing the book at all--you made the 1,000
metre conclusion jump that that was my source. My comment was that the
book was not unknown to me, but I was not getting my information from it.
In any case, I don't believe _Holy Blood, Holy Grail_ qualifies as a primary
source.
+-------------------------------------SubG----------------------------------+
[deletia]
>
>SubGenius writes:
>>To explain (?) :
>My (ptrei's) summation of SubG's complex post (I don't agree with all this,
>but it's too long to quote in full):
>1. Masons originated with building of King Solomon's Temple.
>2. Templars, in 12C, allegedly discover "cool stuff" in ruins of KST.
>3. Templars are unpopular due to allegations of various nasty practices,
> scatter and form strongholds. One of these is in Provence, France.
>4. In early 1300's Templars are suppressed.
>5. Three hundred and fifty years later, Poussin paints "The Sheperds
> of Arcadia", which includes "Et in Arcadia Ego..." on a tomb. The
> background skyline *may* match a location in Provence.
>6. Louis XV allegedly liked this painting.
>
>back to full quotes...
>
>>This causes some people to say that Louis XV was a Mason, or that he at very
>>least knew more about the Masonic activity occuring in France than he let on.
>
> Does anyone besides me have a problem with this? The connection
>seems unbelievably tenuous: Louis may have liked a painting which may
>have been painted in the same area where, centuries earlier, the
>Templars lived, and who may have found stuff left by Masons in KST. If
>anyone thinks that this is strong evidence that Louis was involved
>with the Masons, then they're beyond help.
+--------------------------------------SubG---------------------------------+
Well, crickey, *I* have a problem with that, but I wasn't saying that it was
conclusive proof, but it is a thing some people believe.
The point of my post(s) to start with was to explain the literary connotation
of the phrase `Et in Arcadia ego,' and there are many examples of books in
which the phrase is used as an allusion to what I've outlined--true or not.
The use of said connotation is independent of its validity; if a writer thinks
that Masons say, "When it rains, it pours, dear friend," and then writes a
novel in which one character sez to another, "When it rains, it pours, dear
friend," the connotation is that the character is a Mason, regardless of
whether or not REAL Masons use the phrase.
+--------------------------------------SubG----------------------------------+
>>It is, of course, a reasonably well-documented assumption that the
>>various Masonic lodges in France had a pivotal role in getting the
>>French Revolution going in 1789.
>
> First, what's a "well-documented assumption"? To me, an
>assumption is a belief in the absence of evidence.
+------------------------------------SubG------------------------------------+
Call it a `belief in abscence of proof.'
As for a standard reference that will mention (albeit in passing) the Masonic
and Illuminati (that's the historical one, not any of the huge, mysterious
mega-organizations that permeate fiction) involvement in the French Revolution,
try the Encyclopedia Britanica.
+------------------------------------SubG------------------------------------+
>Second, if the
>Masons were behind the French Revolution (very doubtful, seeing as
>they suffered so badly during it), why would Louis be involved with
>them? A deathwish? You are not making sense.
+-------------------------------------SubG-----------------------------------+
I dunno, man--I didn't do it.
I think the rationale is that Louis XV, with his extensive network of spies
and so on, was aware of all the Masonic activity.
That he might have been a member is, as near as I can tell, mostly wild
speculation.
It is worth pointing out that Louis XV was buried for roughly 20 years before
the Revolution struck--Louis XVI and the dauphin and dauphine were markedly
different sorts of people than Louis XV was, and many of the associates of
Louis XV had little civility to spare for Louis XVI, and vice versa.
As far as `primary sources' go, I doubt very much if I could obtain documents
dating to the 1300's, as they tend to be rather rare in Texas. I will make
an effort, as my schedule allows, to obtain and bring to the attention of
you and our fellow r.a.b.ble sources as near to primacy as possible.
I wonder--would you consider the writing of, say, A.E. Waite, A. Crowley,
u.s.w. as `reliable' on this issue? I would point out that they (and many
other English and Continental writers of that period) were members of the
G.'.D.'. and O.T.O. which, although now little more than a joke, at the time
admitted only Masons of considerable (thirty-second degree?) standing.
-SubG
Chris Malcolm
>when
>de Molay was burned at the stake in 1314, the Templars were more or less
>disintigrated.
A large group of them fled to Scotland, a remote savage land outwith
Papal jurisdiction, and blended with local Masonic groups, in time
forming the Scottish Rite, which has always had the odd status of
being a minority peripheral Masonic sect which is yet permitted to
grant higher degrees of initiation than any other, the headquarters of
which are in Rosslyn Chapel near Edinburgh, which contains, among a
profusion of Masonic and Templar symbolism, the 'Prentice Pillar,
which features in a story of ritual murder, and is rumoured to contain
the Holy Grail.
Their military skills were also of great assistance to the Scots in
holding off the English.
--
Chris Malcolm c...@uk.ac.ed.aifh +44 (0)31 650 3085
Department of Artificial Intelligence, Edinburgh University
5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK DoD #205
Michael Zeleny
>Joan Shields writes...
>>>There's a bit of a problem in assuming that the Templars (or any group for
>>>that matter) are philisophically homogeneous.
JS:
>>Exactly my point. So clever of you to point that out.
>>Yours in wet fishes and extreme generalizations,
>>Joan
SG:
>+------------------------------------------SubG-------------------------------+
>Well, included in the above assumption (or revocation of assumption) is that
>while not ALL the Templars were into buggery or Baphomet, there certainly
>were ones who were.
>
>If, say, the pope took up buggery, then one would (in the world of rhetoric,
>which is to say, the world of looking down one's nose at others) have some
>cause to ramble on about them R.C.'s and their buggery because, unfortunately I
>suppose, groups tend to be judged by their more prominent members [cough], and
>the prominent ones would be the loudest ones.
>
>For instance, someone new to r.a.b. might think that we're all longwinded
>pompus asses, whereas the initiate knows that that's just McCarthy.
I see! by the same logic, someone new to r.a.b. might think that we're
all sophomoric, gutless, weak-minded douchebags, habitually spewing
out discombobulated ramblings behind the commonplace anonymity of a
grotesque sobriquet, whereas the initiate knows that's just... hey,
what did you say your name was, anyway?
>Yours etc.,
No thanks.
>SubGenius
cordially,
mikhail zel...@husc.harvard.edu
"Nothing can be said truly of what does not exist."
Keith Morgan
Although most writers don't deliberatly indulge in
obfuscation (Wilson being an exception) by presenting fact and fabrication
identically, the writer who's actually an expert (or Anne Elk, for
that matter) ^^^^^^^^^^^
SubGenius
Who?
Nicely confused,
Keith
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Keith Morgan |A nice man is a man of nasty ideas.
kamo...@athena.mit.edu | Jonathan Swift
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Barbara Hlavin
I'm starting to worry about that cough. Perhaps you could persuade
Mary to make you a nice cup of tea with honey and lemon.
>For instance, someone new to r.a.b. might think that we're all longwinded
>pompus asses, whereas the initiate knows that that's just McCarthy.
>
How about giving the McCarthy-bashing a rest, eh? He's neither pompous
nor an ass, and certainly one of the less long-winded of us all.
--Barbara
SubGenius
>Der undersmarts writes:
>> Although most writers don't deliberatly indulge in
>>obfuscation (Wilson being an exception) by presenting fact and fabrication
>>identically, the writer who's actually an expert (or Anne Elk, for
>>that matter) ^^^^^^^^^^^
>>SubGenius
>
> Who?
> Nicely confused,
> Keith
>
+------------------------------------------SubG--------------------------------+
Just obfuscatin'.
There's this Monty Python sketch where Graham Chapman (as a talk-show host)
interviews this dinosaur `expert,' named "Anne Elk," played by John Cleese in
drag.
Thus:
GC: I have with me in the studio tonight, an elk.
[frightened noise]
No, I'm sorry--Anne Elk--Mrs. Anne Elk...
JC: Miss.
GC: ...Miss Anne Elk, who is an expert...
JC: Anne Elk.
GC: What?
JC: Anne Elk. Not `Anne Expert.'
GC: No, I was just saying that you A-N-N-E Elk are an, A-N, expert...
JC: Yes.
GC: ...on elks. Oh, I'm sorry, on dinosaurs....
U.s.w.
Keep in mind that this was from memory, and therefore may contain much that
is apocryphal or at least wildly inaccurate.
Yours etc., [cough]
SubGenius
SubGenius
>(SubGenius) writes:
>>groups tend to be judged by their more prominent members [cough]
>I'm starting to worry about that cough. Perhaps you could persuade
>Mary to make you a nice cup of tea with honey and lemon.
+------------------------------------------SubG------------------------------+
I was thinking more along the lines of a nice glass of gin and tonic with...
gin and tonic.
+------------------------------------------SubG------------------------------+
>>For instance, someone new to r.a.b. might think that we're all longwinded
>>pompus asses, whereas the initiate knows that that's just McCarthy.
>How about giving the McCarthy-bashing a rest, eh? He's neither pompous
>nor an ass, and certainly one of the less long-winded of us all.
>--Barbara
+------------------------------------------SubG------------------------------+
I'm afraid that when I make one-liners like that folks tend to take the
comment a bit more seriously than intended.
A good rule of thumb is that a) any time I include little comments in brackets
like the above, I'm not being terribly serious. Since it is difficult to convey
`tone of voice' via Internet, putting textural flags in the midst of my
ramblings is about the only way to clue in people unfamiliar with my
general temperment [and I do believe that's the correct word]
Hum. There was an `a)' there, so I guess I'd ought to supply a `b)', eh?
b) If I'm trying in earnest to attack someone's character (or lack thereof),
I would go to much greater length and use much more verbage than in the above.
But McCarthy still IS a git.
Yours etc.,
SubGenius
John McCarthy
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
Rich Alderson
removed same from the headers of this post; I'd suggest that it go to the alt
group on subgenii, or something, but I don't really care.
--
Rich Alderson 'I wish life was not so short,' he thought. 'Languages take
such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
--J. R. R. Tolkien,
alde...@leland.stanford.edu _The Lost Road_
Michael Zeleny
j...@cs.Stanford.EDU inquires:
>What's a git?
For once, your online OED might have helped you, Professor, -- the word
is there in all its glory, between `gistne' and `Gitane', together with a
selection of amusing quotations. But a far better way to find out, is to
ask a Monty Python fan. Or watch a play by Harold Pinter. If all else
should fail, a git is the grandson of a geezer, the son of a galoot, the
brother of a blighter, the nephew of a josser, and the cousin of a berk.
Such is the penalty the wimpy English people have to pay for their
prudish proscription of the glorious monosyllable. Those firking crunts.
cordially,
mikhail zel...@husc.harvard.edu
"Le cul des femmes est monotone comme l'esprit des hommes."
SubGenius
>SubGenius writes:
> I think you are (accidentally) inverting this - I'm asking you to
>back up your claim that the phrase `Et in Arcadia ego' has a Masonic
>contention.
+--------------------------------------SubG---------------------------------+
Not quite--I pointed out that in stating that the phrase has and has never
had any Masonic connotation you make the implicit claim to be familiar with
all the material written about and by Masons as familiarity with that body
of knowledge is the only way one could authoritatively hold such an opinion.
+---------------------------------------SubG--------------------------------+
>>In order to disprove that, I only have to have one reference that you
>>do not, or credit one that you choose to discredit. That means that
>>(at bare minimum) I could get by with knowing only one source.
> Absolutely correct - I've given you the easy job. Can you come up
>with a single reference to this phrase in Masonic literature?
[Baigent und Leigh deletia]
>I'll make your task even easier: can you find ANY usage of the phrase
>`Et in Arcadia ego' with a Masonic connection which predates B&L?
[del]
>lets put the time limit at 1975.
[deletia]
+-----------------------------------SubG------------------------------------+
No problem.
But, as I said, I have (at the moment) limited literary resources, and I
daresay most of the source material that is relevant to this discussion
is reasonably obscure.
However, if you are willing to accept as `proof' and pre-1975 reference to
the phrase as having a Masonic connotation you have made my task easier by
orders of magnitude, as there is at least one treatise of art history that
speculates along these lines in relation to Poussin's work that I believe
is pre-1975.
Please do not imagine me as being haggard and at the end of my rope, dangling
over the Caverns and Vaults of Eternity, because I cannot provide a reference
immediately. The problem is (as most problems are) one of proof and not one
of truth.
IMNSHO.
+-----------------------------------SubG------------------------------------+
[deletia]
> Peter Trei
> Editor:Masonic Digest
+------------------------------------SubG-----------------------------------+
[this space intentionally left blank]
Yours etc.,
SubGenius
MR X
>Such is the penalty the wimpy English people have to pay for their
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
watch it yank!
who are you calling wimps?
Thats jolly bad show old chap!
come over here and say that to my face!
Do you want a fight old bean!
come on then!
I give you a jolly good bunch of fives, you cad!
anytime! anywhere!
MR X
p.s. If it wasn't for the english, there wouldn't be any Monty Python,
which means no AFMP!
So you and your wimpy Harvard University friends can fuck off!
^^^^
jolly bad language
I should have said 'git'
God save our gracious queen,
long live our noble queen,
God save our queen,
la la la la
send her victorious,
happy and glorious,
long to reign over us,
god save our queen.
Here we go, here we go, here we go.....
--
*************************************************************************
* MR X aka MR KEN LIVER SAUSAGE aka DAVE BRETT *
* EMAIL: csg...@cch.coventry.ac.uk *
*************************************************************************
Graeme Griffiths
>In article <JMC.92De...@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>
>j...@cs.Stanford.EDU inquires:
>>What's a git?
>For once, your online OED might have helped you, Professor, -- the word
>is there in all its glory, between `gistne' and `Gitane', together with a
>selection of amusing quotations. But a far better way to find out, is to
>ask a Monty Python fan. Or watch a play by Harold Pinter. If all else
>should fail, a git is the grandson of a geezer, the son of a galoot, the
>brother of a blighter, the nephew of a josser, and the cousin of a berk.
>Such is the penalty the wimpy English people have to pay for their
>prudish proscription of the glorious monosyllable. Those firking crunts.
NOW _that_ is a git. (Sorry Mikey couldn't resist ;-)
Where did he learn his English ? I do delight in are US cousins
trying to copy British comedy. I mean he's nearly there but, in the same
movement, WAY off mark. To understand this fully you have to see what they
did to Reggie Perrin, the comedy was quintessentially British (if not
English) in its entirety and in the American version good ole Reggie just
turned into a pillock. (I could qualify that but I hope our 'merkin
friends will sort of pick up the lingo as we go along).
This, incidentally, is not a pop at America or its people, just an
observation. Stick to what you're good at. F'rinstance irony ("like bronzy
and slivery only made of iron") and sarcasm are rarely seen in the American
TV we get over here, I assume this is because its not well received there,
most US stand-up comedians seem to drag jokes on too long (for my taste).
I'm not saying I don't like them, au contraire, but comedy to me is a
mental thing, once my mind has made the link it's funny, it doesn't need
to be followed through so that the link is cast in stone, unless of course
the follow-up is in itself a furthering of the joke.
To answer the (original) question "git" is a derisory term used to
indicate that someone is out of your favour, usually they have a
personality trait that rubs you up the wrong way. (Me for an unbeleivable
coincidental example, I will be the first to admit that I am a git) Or are
insensitive of social graces. The word is used in comedy (esp. very
British comedy) because it can be spat out with venom (see Rowan Atkinson).
Most effective swearing or cursing has this trait (See Jerry Sadowitz
discussion of the word c**t or Billy Conolly on f**k off)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|From: Graeme Griffiths | "Well your jokes ain't funny, |
|Abekas Video Systems,12 Portman Rd,| and there's nothing you say, |
|Reading,Berks,ENGLAND. | that I want to hear....." |
|(0734)585421 x2247 | Skid Row |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SubGenius
Funny how this thread keeps popping up in odd newsgroups.
Probably part of some huge international (or Internet, anyway) conspiracy.
Funny that the `secret phrase' should turn out to be not `Et in Arcadia ego'
as had been originally suspected, but rather `McCarthy is a git.'
"Better
Yours etc.,
SubGenius
James P. H. Fuller
>In article <1992Dec5.2...@husc3.harvard.edu> zel...@husc10.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny) writes:
>
>>Such is the penalty the wimpy English people have to pay for their
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>watch it yank!
>
>I give you a jolly good bunch of fives, you cad!
You're welcome to call Mr. Z a small-y yank (not inappropriate at
all) as long as you understand that, though he happens to be over here
brandishing his combativeness in a nice safe well-fed Western nation, he
is not in fact a Capital-Y Yankee. We may hope that when Harvard is done
raising him up from savagery he will return to the third world to propa-
gate the good work. (Either hope that, or else for a slightly more liberal
reading of the leash laws up and down Massachusetts Avenue.)
-- jf
Eric E. Buckner
> In <1992Dec5.2...@husc3.harvard.edu> zel...@husc10.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny) writes:
>
> >In article <JMC.92De...@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>
> >j...@cs.Stanford.EDU inquires:
({[part of post has been eaten and digested by me]})
> Where did he learn his English ? I do delight in are US cousins
Where did you learn YOUR English?-----^^^
> trying to copy British comedy. I mean he's nearly there but, in the same
> movement, WAY off mark. To understand this fully you have to see what they
> did to Reggie Perrin, the comedy was quintessentially British (if not
> English) in its entirety and in the American version good ole Reggie just
> turned into a pillock. (I could qualify that but I hope our 'merkin
> friends will sort of pick up the lingo as we go along).
>
> This, incidentally, is not a pop at America or its people, just an
> observation. Stick to what you're good at. F'rinstance irony ("like bronzy
> and slivery only made of iron") and sarcasm are rarely seen in the American
> TV we get over here, I assume this is because its not well received there,
> most US stand-up comedians seem to drag jokes on too long (for my taste).
You're not kidding about sarcasm, some of the people on alt.vampyres have
absolutely NO tolerence for it. BTW are you saying that as an American, I'm
not sarcastic enough. I happen to be damned sarcastic. All my friends could
tell you so.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> |From: Graeme Griffiths | "Well your jokes ain't funny, |
> |Abekas Video Systems,12 Portman Rd,| and there's nothing you say, |
> |Reading,Berks,ENGLAND. | that I want to hear....." |
> |(0734)585421 x2247 | Skid Row |
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric aka not Idle, just really lazy
--
"You can take my head and cut it off, but you ain't gonna change my mind."
Alice Cooper--Never trust the obvious.--"Everything's true. God is an astro-
naught. Oz is over the rainbow...and Midian is where the monsters live, and
you came here to die!" Peloquin (NIGHTBREED)--"Me, sarcastic, never." me
Tom Maddox
from "get," which is to say *offspring*, but I am ignorant of the process
by which it became insulting.
--
Tom Maddox
tma...@netcom.com
"The Reptoids eat humans like we eat chickens."
Alex Alexander
Graham W. Redgrave
|>
[...]
|> most US stand-up comedians seem to drag jokes on too long (for my taste).
|> Most effective swearing or cursing has this trait (See Jerry Sadowitz
|> discussion of the word c**t or Billy Conolly on f**k off)
Anyone else heard the tape of Dudley Moore and someone else going on in
typically drunken (cf.) fashion about seeing a mutual friend of theirs,
whom they can only describe as a f**king c*nt (to be somewhat restrained
about it)? There must ten minutes of effin' and cee-in' in what must
be interpreted as a satire on crude speech. For what it's worth, it's
one of _the_funniest_ things I've ever heard, but hardly an epitome of
British Brevity.
Yours, as someone who doesn't mind "fucking," but can't stomach the
public airing of "c*nt,"
--
Graham Redgrave | -- I don't speak for the government,
g...@life.lanl.gov | but I wish the government would speak for me ... --
Bill Oliver
>
>A large group of them fled to Scotland, a remote savage land outwith
>Papal jurisdiction, and blended with local Masonic groups, in time
>forming the Scottish Rite, which has always had the odd status of
>being a minority peripheral Masonic sect which is yet permitted to
The Scottish Rite is not the minority here in the States. In fact,
I think it quite overwhelms the York Rite in number of members.
Bill Oliver
Francis Muir
Yours, as someone who doesn't mind "fucking," but can't
stomach the public airing of "c*nt,"
Difficult to see how one might not mind the one without stomaching the
other.
Fido
PS. Is Graham any relation to Michael Redgrave? I'm crazy about the
Glyndebourne recording (ca 1940) of the Beggar's Opera where Redgrave
plays MacHeath. Phantasmic.
James P. H. Fuller
>PS. Is Graham any relation to Michael Redgrave? I'm crazy about the
>Glyndebourne recording (ca 1940) of the Beggar's Opera where Redgrave
>plays MacHeath. Phantasmic.
Do they stay in character when they sing? I have some Glyndebourne
recordings of Gilbert and Sullivan in which the cast is much better than
the usual run of D'Oyly Carte productions and the singing is lovely
(best Merry Madrigal I've ever heard) but they drop their characters when
they sing and just become Beautiful Voices.
-- jf
Francis Muir
Francis Muir writes:
Is Graham any relation to Michael Redgrave? I'm
crazy about the Glyndebourne recording (ca 1940)
of the Beggar's Opera where Redgrave plays MacHeath.
Phantasmic.
Do they stay in character when they sing? I have some
Glyndebourne recordings of Gilbert and Sullivan in which
the cast is much better than the usual run of D'Oyly Carte
productions and the singing is lovely (best Merry Madrigal
I've ever heard) but they drop their characters when they
sing and just become Beautiful Voices.
The beauty of the Redgrave singing is that he does not. He is/was an
actor with a superb spoken voice who could then attach that voice to
notes. The Beggar's Opera is a ballad opera, so bel canto would be
quite out of place. Audrey Mildmay's Polly is a little different, since
the roles of Polly and Lucy were written for the two great sopranos.
Nevertheless, Miss Mildmay had a simple, clear voice that is perfect
for the part.
The producer of this Glyndebourne version was Gielgud, by the way, who
stood in for Redgrave for a couple of performances when Redgrave twisted
an ancle leaping onto the dtage.
Fido
SubGenius
>Graham W. Redgrave writes:
> Yours, as someone who doesn't mind "fucking," but can't
> stomach the public airing of "c*nt,"
>Difficult to see how one might not mind the one without stomaching the
>other.
> Fido
+-------------------------------------------SubG-----------------------------+
Actually, Shakespeare (to the best of my knowledge) never let slip a proud,
Renaissance, "PHUQUE!" but, on at least one occasion, gave pronouncement
(albeit obliquely) to the censor's bane, the `cunt,' so the Bard might be one
with this particular bit of prudishness.
"And thus she makes her
magnificent P's!"
Yours etc.,
SubGenius
Bud Nekkid
> Anyone else heard the tape of Dudley Moore and someone else going on in
> typically drunken (cf.) fashion about seeing a mutual friend of theirs,
> whom they can only describe as a f**king c*nt (to be somewhat restrained
> about it)? There must ten minutes of effin' and cee-in' in what must
> be interpreted as a satire on crude speech. For what it's worth, it's
> one of _the_funniest_ things I've ever heard, but hardly an epitome of
> British Brevity.
Sounds like Derek and Clive to me (Pete & Dud's crude alter-egos). One of my
favourite Derek and Clive skits was one in which we hear Peter Cooke holding
a phone conversation with a long lost friend who's just called him up. A few
minutes of good-natured banter ensues, followed by Peter saying "Anyway, nice to
hear from you, bye! <Click>... C*nt!"
Shaun.
--
Shaun Lowry | Micro Focus | All good strings must come to an end\0
s...@mfltd.co.uk | 26 West St. |
| Newbury, Berks, | "Look out! Moustache!"
(0635)565282 | UK. |
Paddy Grove
> Anyone else heard the tape of Dudley Moore and someone else going on in
> typically drunken (cf.) fashion about seeing a mutual friend of theirs,
> whom they can only describe as a f**king c*nt (to be somewhat restrained
> about it)? There must ten minutes of effin' and cee-in' in what must
> be interpreted as a satire on crude speech. For what it's worth, it's
> one of _the_funniest_ things I've ever heard, but hardly an epitome of
> British Brevity.
That'll be Dudley Moore & Peter Cook, a.k.a. Derek & Clive. I don't recall
this particular sketch, but they put out a few albums ("Ad Nauseam", "Derek &
Clive Come Again", and a live one), plus a video ("Derek & Clive Get the
Horn"). The albums are hilarious in parts, crap in others, but I remember the
video being very funny (but I was pissed at the time).
Paddy
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Paddy Grove, Nokia Telecommunications, Transmission Product Development -
- Cambridge, UK. Tel: +44 223 423 123 -
- External Email: gr...@uk.tele.nokia.fi Internal Email: NTL02::GROVE -
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Godwin
>+-------------------------------------------SubG-----------------------------+
>Actually, Shakespeare (to the best of my knowledge) never let slip a proud,
>Renaissance, "PHUQUE!" but, on at least one occasion, gave pronouncement
>(albeit obliquely) to the censor's bane, the `cunt,' so the Bard might be one
>with this particular bit of prudishness.
>
>"And thus she makes her
> magnificent P's!"
Best not to misquote the Bard, Subby. Those Ps were great, but they
weren't magnificent. Or at least they weren't in "Twelfth Night."
And you missed another oblique reference to "cunt"--Hamlet's joking
about lying in Ophelia's lap has him referring to "country matters."
--Mike
--
Mike Godwin, |"Doubt isn't the opposite of faith; it is an
mnem...@eff.org| element of faith."
(617) 864-0665 |
EFF, Cambridge | --Paul Tillich
Graham W. Redgrave
Heh, heh ... Find the biggest building in Santa Fe after the Eldorado
hotel: it is a Giant, Pink Stucco Moorish Castle!!!! And to whom does it
belong? Why the Scottish Rite Masons, natch ... (I guess stone-cutting
and exterior decorating don't necessarily belong together: all I have
to say to any SF masons who might be reading -- "Psst! Next time _contract_
_out_!)
Yours in Pepto-abysmal aesthetics,
Graham W. Redgrave
|> Graham W. Redgrave writes:
|>
|> Yours, as someone who doesn't mind "fucking," but can't
|> stomach the public airing of "c*nt,"
|>
|> Difficult to see how one might not mind the one without stomaching the
|> other.
Dear, oh dear, duckie, haven't you watched your namesake?
ObBooks: the Kama Sutra, and any beginning veterinary phys. text ...
|>
|> Fido
|>
|> PS. Is Graham any relation to Michael Redgrave? I'm crazy about the
|> Glyndebourne recording (ca 1940) of the Beggar's Opera where Redgrave
|> plays MacHeath. Phantasmic.
Unfortunately not, but my mother's butcher did used to call
her Vanessa ...
Redgrave's a little village in Suffolk, I believe, so my surname
(which means "reedy ditch or grove," fr. the Saxon, so I'm told)
is a toponym: I should be Graham of Redgrave. Incidentally,
"graham" means wholesome (or unrefined, you decide).
Yours in hereditary disappointment and a fondness for the
phrase "back in the saddle again,"
Graham W. Redgrave
Christmas presents?
Yours in comic relief,
Andrew Cannon
>In article <1992Dec7.1...@abekrd.co.uk>, gra...@abekrd.co.uk (Graeme Griffiths) writes:
>|>
>[...]
>|> most US stand-up comedians seem to drag jokes on too long (for my taste).
>[...]
>|> Most effective swearing or cursing has this trait (See Jerry Sadowitz
>|> discussion of the word c**t or Billy Conolly on f**k off)
>
>Anyone else heard the tape of Dudley Moore and someone else going on in
>typically drunken (cf.) fashion about seeing a mutual friend of theirs,
>whom they can only describe as a f**king c*nt (to be somewhat restrained
>about it)? There must ten minutes of effin' and cee-in' in what must
>be interpreted as a satire on crude speech. For what it's worth, it's
>one of _the_funniest_ things I've ever heard, but hardly an epitome of
>British Brevity.
>
"Derek and Clive" and "Derek and Clive Cum Again" I believe. Dudley Moore
and Peter Cook pissed up in a recording studio.
>Yours, as someone who doesn't mind "fucking," but can't stomach the
>public airing of "c*nt,"
>
I don't mind any airing of cunt (Why do people bung asterix's in place of
letters. We all know what the missing letter is and it does'nt make it any less
abusive. Remember kiddys, they're only words, they can't hurt you (Unless you
get hit in the head with a dictionary)
--
| Andy Cannon | From a Vision of Reality, |
| Misplaced Yorkshireman | Comes my Nemesis of Faith. |
| Spider Systems Ltd | But is Everything so Different ? |
| and...@spider.co.uk | And Still the Moon...... |
Eric E. Buckner
> In article <1992Dec7.2...@newshost.lanl.gov> g...@hedonist-1.lanl.gov (Graham W. Redgrave) writes:
> >In article <1992Dec7.1...@abekrd.co.uk>, gra...@abekrd.co.uk (Graeme Griffiths) writes:
Bunches of text have been killed in my honor.
>
> I don't mind any airing of cunt (Why do people bung asterix's in place of
> letters. We all know what the missing letter is and it does'nt make it any less
> abusive. Remember kiddys, they're only words, they can't hurt you (Unless you
> get hit in the head with a dictionary)
What about a thesaurus, or an encyclopedia, or the Rosetta Stone, or even the
unabridged collection of Ethyll the Aardvark stories, how about Olsen's
Standard Book of British Birds?
Would those hurt? Or would you just get a tingling feeling? Or would you feel
nothing at all?
What is the sound of one book closing? If a book falls on your head and knocks
you unconscious, and there was noone else around, would it make a sound? Which
came first; the book or the egg?
What do I mean by all these questions?
Why am I wasting your time
What do I mean?
What is the ultimate question about life, the universe, and everything?
Is Jester's name really Ben?
Does anybody read my posts?
Eric aka the philosophical slug
--
"You can take my head and cut it off, but you ain't gonna change my mind."
Alice Cooper--Never trust the obvious.--"Everything's true. God is an astro-
naught. Oz is over the rainbow...and Midian is where the monsters live, and
you came here to die!" Peloquin (NIGHTBREED)--"Me, sarcastic? Never." me--
John A Savage
>and...@spider.co.uk writes:
>> In article <1992Dec7.2...@newshost.lanl.gov> g...@hedonist-1.lanl.gov (Graham W. Redgrave) writes:
>> >In article <1992Dec7.1...@abekrd.co.uk>, gra...@abekrd.co.uk (Graeme Griffiths) writes:
>
>Bunches of text have been killed in my honor.
>>
>> I don't mind any airing of cunt (Why do people bung asterix's in place of
>> letters. We all know what the missing letter is and it does'nt make it any less
>> abusive. Remember kiddys, they're only words, they can't hurt you (Unless you
>> get hit in the head with a dictionary)
>
>What about a thesaurus, or an encyclopedia, or the Rosetta Stone, or even the
>unabridged collection of Ethyll the Aardvark stories, how about Olsen's
>Standard Book of British Birds?
>
>Would those hurt? Or would you just get a tingling feeling? Or would you feel
>nothing at all?
>
>What is the sound of one book closing? If a book falls on your head and knocks
>you unconscious, and there was noone else around, would it make a sound? Which
>came first; the book or the egg?
>
>What do I mean by all these questions?
>Why am I wasting your time
>What do I mean?
>What is the ultimate question about life, the universe, and everything?
>Is Jester's name really Ben?
>Does anybody read my posts?
>
all one can really say, I mean what a load of cobblers.
well, you see the question is whether you would hear the book hit your head as
you were knocked unconscious
More importantly, why do I think I'm a snail?
Troc
err, John actually
PS just goes to show the kind of rubbish you can get on the 'net
I would like to disclaim all knowledge of the above, it was the seagull
Graham W. Redgrave
[...]
|>
|> Best not to misquote the Bard, Subby. Those Ps were great, but they
|> weren't magnificent. Or at least they weren't in "Twelfth Night."
|>
Leaping to the Subster's [sic] defense (and why not?), I must note that
earlier, 30 Sep., he did publish this quotation, which, by means of
the Gutenberg online Shagger, do I verify as coming ... from the fifth
scene, Act II of the _Twelfth Night_:
MALVOLIO By my life, this is my lady's hand. These be her
very C's, her U's an' her T's and thus makes she
her great P's. It is, in contempt of question,
her hand.
Yours in help unlooked for (I always loved the way Tolkien used that
little phrase),
Darryl Davis (RA)
>typically drunken (cf.) fashion about seeing a mutual friend of theirs,
>whom they can only describe as a f**king c*nt (to be somewhat restrained
f****** clive alias Dudley f****** Moore and f****** Pete f****** Cooke, you
f****** c*** you c***.
now f*** off
f****** Dr f****** doom the f****** optimist
--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Dr. Darryl Davis >
Multi-Media Laboratory >
Department of Electrical Engineering > E-mail : d...@spec0.man.ac.uk
The University of Manchester >
Brunswick St > Phone : (+44)-61-275-4561
Manchester M13 9PL > FAX : (+44)-61-275-4512
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
James Kew
>Anyone else heard the tape of Dudley Moore and someone else going on in
>typically drunken (cf.) fashion about seeing a mutual friend of theirs,
>whom they can only describe as a f**king c*nt (to be somewhat restrained
>about it)?
That would be Peter Cook & Dudley Moore, the Derek & Clive albums.
There were three albums, "Derek & Clive -- Live", "Ad Nauseum" and
"Come Again".
>For what it's worth, it's
>one of _the_funniest_ things I've ever heard
Ditto.
______________________________________________________________________
James Kew <ja...@sst.ph.ic.ac.uk> "Well, on a scale of one to ten
Physics (SSTH) I'd say it's bicycle clip time."
Imperial College, London. - Eddie Hitler, Bottom
Ian Collier
> To reply to Prof. McCarthy's original question, I believe "git" comes
>from "get," which is to say *offspring*, but I am ignorant of the process
>by which it became insulting.
It apparently means "offspring (of an animal)", so I guess it's a sort of
abbreviation of "son of a bitch" or sonething like that.
Ian Collier
Ian.C...@prg.ox.ac.uk | i...@ecs.ox.ac.uk
Graham W. Redgrave
|>
|> I don't mind any airing of cunt (Why do people bung asterix's in place of
|> letters. We all know what the missing letter is and it does'nt make it any less
|> abusive. Remember kiddys, they're only words, they can't hurt you (Unless you
|> get hit in the head with a dictionary)
|>
Pavlov's Dog, here...
I grew up on both sides of The Pond, and, when I was learning to swear,
roughly between the ages of 9 and 12, say, I learned that one nation's
"shit" is another's daily bread. As my British grandmother says, "You
Americans say `shit' all the time: it's part of your daily speech."
The time before this last time I was in the U.K. with a girlfriend who
loved the word `fuck.' My grandmother went up the wall with apprehension
whenever she was out with us, because my SO couldn't seem to (or wouldn't)
control her `fuck'-ing.
`Cunt,' on the other hand, was _abhorred_ by my American friends: crude
beyond crude, so I was conditioned in two environments, coming and going
[cough], so to speak, about what's appropriate. So I, Pavlovian Bowser
Extraordinaire, well aware that many, if not most of the audience to
which I was speaking was American, or at least that _I_ am posting from
the US, was a little circumspect about me language.
Having said that, I was also taking the piss out of the guy I was responding
to in the first place (Graeme Griffiths) who, in a _very_ British way,
was being shy even about `fuck'ing in public.
Woof, woof, <drool>,
David Brooks
| [cough], so to speak, about what's appropriate.
Yes; I have mentioned this before (every time the word "bugger" comes
up). There are many subtle and not so subtle differences in degree of
vulgarity, for many common words, across the Atlantic. For us
transplants, this is one of the hardest lingustic learning tasks in what
we thought was our primary language.
But it must be accomplished. Two days ago, at a middle school concert,
in my function as very part-time teacher, I upbraided a group of 8th
graders for "making asses of themselves". Now I have to reply to an
angry letter from a parent (without losing sight of the issue that her
child's behavior was egregiously asinine).
--
David Brooks dbr...@osf.org
Open Software Foundation uunet!osf.org!dbrooks
Allüberall und ewig blauen licht die Fernen! Ewig... ewig... ewig...
Steve Dyer
>But it must be accomplished. Two days ago, at a middle school concert,
>in my function as very part-time teacher, I upbraided a group of 8th
>graders for "making asses of themselves". Now I have to reply to an
>angry letter from a parent (without losing sight of the issue that her
>child's behavior was egregiously asinine).
And some people claim that intelligence isn't hereditary! :-) :-)
I'd love to see that letter AND your response. It's nice to know
one can still be shocked these days...
--
Steve Dyer
dy...@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Graham W. Redgrave
|> g...@hedonist-1.lanl.gov (Graham W. Redgrave) writes:
|> | I was conditioned in two environments, coming and going
|> | [cough], so to speak, about what's appropriate.
|>
|> Yes; I have mentioned this before (every time the word "bugger" comes
|> up). There are many subtle and not so subtle differences in degree of
|> vulgarity, for many common words, across the Atlantic. For us
|> transplants, this is one of the hardest lingustic learning tasks in what
|> we thought was our primary language.
I got it, I got it! Let's start a support group: Anglo-American
Transplants Anonymous! We would wear Stars and Jacks to our meetings,
and our motto could be something like
"A truck by any other name is still a lorry ... "
or
"Bugger the Asses!"
or something like that. Tetley's and Budweiser, turkey and roast beef,
yorkshire pud and candied yams, trifle and apple pie: the mind boggles
<the stomach knots>. I leave it to you to fill out the other gory
details (What should the anthem be? The flower? Would we have a president
or a prime minister? The list is long, but I have confidence).
|> But it must be accomplished. Two days ago, at a middle school concert,
|> in my function as very part-time teacher, I upbraided a group of 8th
|> graders for "making asses of themselves". Now I have to reply to an
|> angry letter from a parent (without losing sight of the issue that her
|> child's behavior was egregiously asinine).
Ouch. I suggest starting the letter off: "You fucking cunt..." and
go from there.
|> --
|> David Brooks dbr...@osf.org
|> Open Software Foundation uunet!osf.org!dbrooks
|> Allüberall und ewig blauen licht die Fernen! Ewig... ewig... ewig...
Yours in straddling the Atlantic,
Vince Gibboni
> We may hope that when Harvard is done
> raising him up from savagery he [MZ] will return to the third world to propa-
> gate the good work.
>
Actually, if "Mr. Z" were to return, it would, I believe, be to the
_second_ world (a useful, but oddly unused, phrase).
Besides, the only significant difference between Cambridge and the
third world is that the third world is slightly better because there
are fewer mimes there.
Man, you should have seen them kicking Edgar Allen Poe
- John Lennon
Graeme Griffiths
[Vagaries about US squeamishness about language deleted]
>Having said that, I was also taking the piss out of the guy I was responding
>to in the first place (Graeme Griffiths) who, in a _very_ British way,
>was being shy even about `fuck'ing in public.
O.K. I'll bite. Not wanting to sound prudish, I don't think any of
my friends would see me quite that way, but I personally do not have a
problem with the word 'Fuck'. I don't hesitate in using it socially. I'll
have to admit that I personally hold my foul tongue on a leash when in
business or family situations as I realise that there are still people in
those situations who think that swearing is unforgivable.
It is for this reason that I asterisk out the odd letter in order to
introduce a veil of cordiality. I look forward to the day when words
previously used to swear become a natural emroidery of the language, until
then I will still be a hipocrite by advocating one thing yet giving in to
other peoples reservations.
Maybe it's yet another US/UK difference that we seem to have the
style and grace to not want to offend people we have never met, maybe not.
Thank you for referring to my last post as "_very_ British". In a country
that is rapidly becoming just another state in the union I do try and do
my bit to keep the "Green and Pleasant Land" alive.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|From: Graeme Griffiths | "Well your jokes ain't funny, |
|Abekas Video Systems,12 Portman Rd,| and there's nothing you say, |
|Reading,Berks,ENGLAND. | that I want to hear....." |
|(0734)585421 x2247 | Skid Row |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Keith Morgan
> Actually, if "Mr. Z" were to return, it would, I believe, be to the
> _second_ world (a useful, but oddly unused, phrase).
>
> Besides, the only significant difference between Cambridge and the
> third world is that the third world is slightly better because there
> are fewer mimes there.
Whoa, hold on! I've lived in Cambridge for two years now and
*never* seen a mime - jugglers, yes, mimes, no. And surely the only
significant difference between Cambridge and the third world is that
Cambridge is slightly better because there are more bookstores here.
Keith
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Keith Morgan |A nice man is a man of nasty ideas.
kamo...@athena.mit.edu | Jonathan Swift
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Streater
>
>Thank you for referring to my last post as "_very_ British". In a country
>that is rapidly becoming just another state in the union I do try and do
|
|
Fuck that. >--------+
Tin.
Lawrence R. Dodd
>>>>> "Tim" == Tim Streater <stre...@unixhub.SLAC.Stanford.EDU> writes:
Tim> In article <1992Dec11.1...@abekrd.co.uk> gra...@abekrd.co.uk
Tim> (Graeme Griffiths) writes:
>
>Thank you for referring to my last post as "_very_ British". In a country
>that is rapidly becoming just another state in the union I do try and do
Tim> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tim> |
Tim> |
Tim> Fuck that. >--------+
Tim> Tin.
ditto.
Sue Miller
Indeed. I don't remember UK statehood being on offer.
Tom Maddox
Don't worry. Nobody's asked. Nobody's likely to.
--
Tom Maddox
tma...@netcom.com
"The Reptoids eat humans like we eat chickens."
Alex Alexander
Graham W. Redgrave
|> In <1992Dec9.2...@newshost.lanl.gov> g...@hedonist-1.lanl.gov
(Graham W. Redgrave) writes:
|>
|> [Vagaries about US squeamishness about language deleted]
|>
|> >Having said that, I was also taking the piss out of the guy I was responding
|> >to in the first place (Graeme Griffiths) who, in a _very_ British way,
|> >was being shy even about `fuck'ing in public.
|>
|> O.K. I'll bite. Not wanting to sound prudish, I don't think any of
|> my friends would see me quite that way, but I personally do not have a
|> problem with the word 'Fuck'. I don't hesitate in using it socially. I'll
|> have to admit that I personally hold my foul tongue on a leash when in
|> business or family situations as I realise that there are still people in
|> those situations who think that swearing is unforgivable.
Yes. Absolutely. The only reasons I think swearing is unforgiveable:
- habitual use of four-letter epithets leads quickly to a laziness
of usage and a lack of verbal imagination, which, to my mind,
is the singularly most wonderful gift we are given after life
itself (What if Adam, naming the animals as they proceeded by him,
could only think of names like "tall motherfucker," "slimy bastard,"
etc. Granted, it would make taxonomy somewhat easier, but I don't
think the trade off is worth it)
- unintentionally offending someone who otherwise would not have
been offended, simply because one inserts a colorful if useless
scatalogical term (or whatever). <Pant, pant, write much, Graham?>
Which is to say, I take the idea of civilization as desirable
and possible, but only if people have manners. Having said that,
I think that to define "manners" there must be a shared culture,
and on usenet there is clearly not one culture.
And, of course, it _can_ be the funniest, most relieving, most exact
way of speaking possible.
|>
|> It is for this reason that I asterisk out the odd letter in order to
|> introduce a veil of cordiality. I look forward to the day when words
|> previously used to swear become a natural emroidery of the language, until
|> then I will still be a hipocrite by advocating one thing yet giving in to
|> other peoples reservations.
A more conservative view than mine, but you've probably pissed off (to Amer-
icanize) many fewer people than I!
|> Maybe it's yet another US/UK difference that we seem to have the
|> style and grace to not want to offend people we have never met, maybe not.
|> Thank you for referring to my last post as "_very_ British". In a country
|> that is rapidly becoming just another state in the union I do try and do
|> my bit to keep the "Green and Pleasant Land" alive.
|>
Perhaps for those of Transplantics the distinction is clearer because we're
in situations regularly that cause us to note the many subtle differences
that remain.
ObAnglo-AmericanBook (I think that's all the groups): _Lord of the Rings_,
where the only people to swear are orcs and Saruman "Sharkey" ...
Yours in a cup of tea,
James P. H. Fuller
>> Besides, the only significant difference between Cambridge and the
>> third world is that the third world is slightly better because there
>> are fewer mimes there.
>
> Whoa, hold on! I've lived in Cambridge for two years now and
>*never* seen a mime - jugglers, yes, mimes, no. And surely the only
>significant difference between Cambridge and the third world is that
>Cambridge is slightly better because there are more bookstores here.
Speaking strictly of used book stores, I have had considerably
better success in more out-of-the-way places than I ever had in Cam-
bridge. During the interval I spent at the H-school and cruised the
dusty-book joints within smelling distance of the Charles I got the
impression that a great many people of educated taste and discrimina-
tion had gone through their bookshelves and sold off the trash. In
particular I have never before or since seen so many broken sets of
the Waverley novels in one small neighborhood.
-- jf
Lady Johanna Constantine
> "A truck by any other name is still a lorry ... "
> or
> "Bugger the Asses!"
>or something like that. Tetley's and Budweiser, turkey and roast beef,
>yorkshire pud and candied yams, trifle and apple pie: the mind boggles
><the stomach knots>. I leave it to you to fill out the other gory
>details (What should the anthem be? The flower? Would we have a president
>or a prime minister? The list is long, but I have confidence).
And would you meet in an apartment (I cannot spell by the b) building or a
block of flats?
I am constantly yelled at by my friends for my language. And spelling.
I am American with a 1/2 british 1/2 irish father, and have been bouncing
around the UK and Ireland visiting cousins and Maiden Aunts since I was in the
womb, and tend to mix idioms *quite* often. It took my roommate a week to
realise what I was asking for when I wanted to know where the bin liners were.
My fave line that makes no sense to an American has got to be:
"If you're cold, take a jumper from the press."
LJC aka Tara O'Shea
--
Lady Johanna Constantine | "When you remove the pin, Mr Hand
ta...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu | Grenade is no longer your friend"
Founder of the Church of Our Lady of the Perpetually Clueless
Disclaimer: The U of I doesn't give a damn or blast WHAT I do
MICHAEL WISE
(Graeme Griffiths) writes:
>>>
>>>Thank you for referring to my last post as "_very_ British". In a country
>>>that is rapidly becoming just another state in the union I do try and do
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> |
>> |
>> Fuck that. >--------+
>>
>
What precisely do you mean by that? Do you mean that you deny Mr Griffiths
point that Britain is becoming more like a colony, a poor relation of the
United States? Do you mean you object to the assimilation of the British
into a world-wide culture dominated by the Americans? Do you mean England
on applying for statehood, would be instantly and ruthlessly turned away,
and you're in favor of that?
Your ability to fuck in front of everyone serves its purpose as shocking
and offensive, but does nothing to clarify the issues you are discussing.
And I believe that was Mr Griffiths point about the use of fuck.
Not to mention that many Americans would find the word's use quite
offensive.
The language is better employed in genuine vituperation.
***Warning! the language in the following paragraph may be offensive
to some***
For example: I wish the fucking prescriptive grammarians in this news-
group would stop fucking telling me every time I get a fucking period
out of place or a fucking semicolon wrong. I wish they would mind their
own fucking business about the fucking dialectical variations I use, and
stop telling that there own fucking dialect is so fucking superior to
mine. I wish they'd take a fucking class in fucking History of the English
Language, or work for several fucking years writing dictionary
definitions for fucking dialect variations, or fucking join the fucking
American Dialect Society before they start fucking spouting off on what
the fuck they think I meant to say, but was too fucking ignorant to express
myself properly.
___________________________________________________________________________
Michael Wise (wwhi...@nevada.edu) UNLV English
"Now I want you to tell me just one thing more. Why do you hate the South?"
"I dont hate it," Quentin said quickly, at once, immediately; "I dont
hate it," he said. I dont hate it he thought, panting in the cold air,
the iron New England dark: I dont. I dont. I dont hate it! I dont hate it!
--William Faulkner, Absalom! Absalom!
Lawrence R. Dodd
>>>>> "MICHAEL" == MICHAEL WISE <wwhi...@nevada.edu> writes:
MICHAEL> Nntp-Posting-Host: helios.nevada.edu
>>In article <1992Dec11.1...@abekrd.co.uk> gra...@abekrd.co.uk
MICHAEL> (Graeme Griffiths) writes:
>>>
>>>Thank you for referring to my last post as "_very_ British". In a country
>>>that is rapidly becoming just another state in the union I do try and do
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> |
>> |
>> Fuck that. >--------+
>>
>
[discourse on GB statehood in US deleted]
MICHAEL> The language is better employed in genuine vituperation.
MICHAEL> ***Warning! the language in the following paragraph may be offensive
MICHAEL> to some***
MICHAEL> For example: I wish the fucking prescriptive grammarians in this news-
MICHAEL> group would stop fucking telling me every time I get a fucking period
MICHAEL> out of place or a fucking semicolon wrong. I wish they would mind their
MICHAEL> own fucking business about the fucking dialectical variations I use, and
MICHAEL> stop telling that there own fucking dialect is so fucking superior to
^^^^^
Mike, I believe you meant to use the word "their" here
(and probably followed by "fucking," but I'm not sure).
Larry "Grammarian" Dodd.
MICHAEL> mine. I wish they'd take a fucking class in fucking History of the English
MICHAEL> Language, or work for several fucking years writing dictionary
MICHAEL> definitions for fucking dialect variations, or fucking join the fucking
MICHAEL> American Dialect Society before they start fucking spouting off on what
MICHAEL> the fuck they think I meant to say, but was too fucking ignorant to express
MICHAEL> myself properly.
Jim Kasprzak
|> stop telling that there own fucking dialect is so fucking superior to
^^^^^
You might try taking some fucking grammar lessons while you're at it.
That usage is wrong on either side of the fucking pond.
(Don't fucking flame me, it's a fucking joke!)
------------------------------------------------------------------
__ Live from Capitaland, heart of the fucking Empire State...
___/ | Jim Kasprzak, computer operator @ RPI, Troy, NY, USA
/____ *| Sam Adams,Spaten# Life is too fucking short #Hudson Lager,Beck's
\_| Pilsener Urquell#to drink fucking cheap beer#Pete's Wicked Ale
==== e-mail: kas...@rpi.edu or kasp...@mts.rpi.edu
Sue Miller
>In article <1992Dec12.1...@nevada.edu>, wwhi...@nevada.edu (MICHAEL WISE) writes:
>
>|> stop telling that there own fucking dialect is so fucking superior to
> ^^^^^
> You might try taking some fucking grammar lessons while you're at it.
>That usage is wrong on either side of the fucking pond.
>
> (Don't fucking flame me, it's a fucking joke!)
You've just gone and fucking done just the fucking kind of followup
about which he was making a fucking complaint.
Ron Hogan
> kas...@rpi.edu:
>>MICHAEL WISE:
>>|> stop telling that there own fucking dialect is so fucking superior to
>> ^^^^^
>> You might try taking some fucking grammar lessons while you're at it.
>>That usage is wrong on either side of the fucking pond.
>> (Don't fucking flame me, it's a fucking joke!)
>You've just gone and fucking done just the fucking kind of followup
>about which he was making a fucking complaint.
Thanks a fucking lot for the fucking observation, master of the
fucking obvious. I'm so fucking glad to know that.
(Bed-Stuy alphabet, anyone?)
Keith Morgan
Strictly speaking of used bookstores, I agree. Beyond McIntyre
& Moore and Starr there are much better used bookstores in the
outlying areas. I take this as a consequence of expensive Harvard
Square rents. Still, for bookstores generally the Square is great. A
guide to Cambridge Bookstores lists 19 in the vicinity and 32 in
Cambridge.
Heather Noel Bobbie
looka dis, guys, i kept the attribution and everything!
In article <Bz4tL...@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ta...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Lady Johanna Constantine) writes:
>My fave line that makes no sense to an American has got to be:
>"If you're cold, take a jumper from the press."
HA HA! i've got you there! i know exactly what that means and
i'm a troooo 'merkun!!! so there! i've got you!
(of course my Master and Love is english but that's got
NOTHING to do with it. i will admit the first time he
mentioned his "jumper," being the innocent flower i am, i
was quite perturbed. i didn't think he was a transvestite..
but he Enlightened me.)
"press" i know from hanging out with Too Many Irish People.
not you, simon. gwen and them.
leather aka feeling superior, oh, yes
________________________________________________________________________
\are you weary of the lengthening days? | heathernoel /
/do you secretly wish for november's rain? | hnb...@tamuts.tamu.edu \
\and the harvest moon to wane in the sky (now that it's dry), /
/there is nothing in this world more bitter than spring. \
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Francis Muir
looka dis, guys, i kept the attribution and everything!
Lady Johanna Constantine writes:
My fave line that makes no sense to an American has got
to be: "If you're cold, take a jumper from the press."
HA HA! i've got you there! i know exactly what that means and
i'm a troooo 'merkun!!! so there! i've got you!
(of course my Master and Love is english but that's got
NOTHING to do with it. i will admit the first time he
mentioned his "jumper," being the innocent flower i am, i
was quite perturbed. i didn't think he was a transvestite..
but he Enlightened me.)
Hmm. Another Heather I see. Soon be as common as kudzu. However, Noel
adds a touch of the aristo to match Our Lady of the Jumpers. Last time
I was in Chipping Camden, Gerry Noel (who is the Earl of Gainsborough?)
was driving the local popish priest to fury by insisting on attending
alternately the CofE and RC churches in the spirit of oecumenicalism.
"Just the sort of thing that gets people nervous" was how the good
Father put it. While we're about it, what is the origin of the phrase
"Up your jumper!."
Fido
Daniel P Johnson
.In article <ryh...@rpi.edu> kas...@rpi.edu writes:
.>In article <1992Dec12.1...@nevada.edu>, wwhi...@nevada.edu (MICHAEL WISE) writes:
.>
.>|> stop telling that there own fucking dialect is so fucking superior to
.>.......^^^^^
.> You might try taking some fucking grammar lessons while you're at it.
.>That usage is wrong on either side of the fucking pond.
.>
.> (Don't fucking flame me, it's a fucking joke!)
.You've just gone and fucking done just the fucking kind of followup
.about which he was making a fucking complaint.
Fuck fucking fuck, fuck the fuck in "fucking fuck" fuck, and fuck the
fucker's fucker...And fuck fuckin' fucking, and fuck fuck while you're
at it.
Dan aka You don't want to hear...
Bruce Munro
Cunt.
--
Bruce Munro. <B.M...@bnr.co.uk> || ...!mcsun!uknet!bnruk!B.Munro
BNR Europe Ltd, Oakleigh Rd South, London N11 1HB. | Note the change
Phone : +44 81 945 2174 or +44 81 945 4000 x2174 | of e-mail address.
"There are no strangers, only friends we don't recognise" - Hank Wangford
SCRIVEN ADAM
If you both want, I'll mail you a copy of a file about uses of the word
F*ck that you both seem so inclined to use.
TTFN
Adam (scr...@ecf.utoronto.ca)
^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^
There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what
the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be
replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.
There is another theory that states that this has already happened.
-The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^
Lynsey Gedye
>Not to mention that many Americans would find the word's use quite
>offensive.
>
>The language is better employed in genuine vituperation.
>
>***Warning! the language in the following paragraph may be offensive
>to some***
>For example: I wish the fucking prescriptive grammarians in this news-
>group would stop fucking telling me every time I get a fucking period
>out of place or a fucking semicolon wrong. I wish they would mind their
>own fucking business about the fucking dialectical variations I use, and
>stop telling that there own fucking dialect is so fucking superior to
>mine. I wish they'd take a fucking class in fucking History of the English
>Language, or work for several fucking years writing dictionary
>definitions for fucking dialect variations, or fucking join the fucking
>American Dialect Society before they start fucking spouting off on what
>the fuck they think I meant to say, but was too fucking ignorant to
>express myself properly.
Damn straight!
Then of course, there's John Cooper Clark's "Chicken Town" from
"Ten Years in an Open Neck Shirt" wherein JCC writes meaningful
poetry like:
The fucking fucking's fucking fucked;
Evidently, Chicken Town.
Thinking further about the idea, I suspect that the two books and
the film I hate with a passion might, IMHO, be improved if the titles
were ammended to "Fucking and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance",
"Fucker in the Rye", and "Dead Fucker's Society".
No? Oh well, they work for me. =:)
--
ly...@surrey.amigans.gen.nz ly...@amigans.gen.nz
Vince Gibboni
>
> Strictly speaking of used bookstores, I agree. Beyond McIntyre
> & Moore and Starr there are much better used bookstores in the
> outlying areas. I take this as a consequence of expensive Harvard
> Square rents. Still, for bookstores generally the Square is great. A
> guide to Cambridge Bookstores lists 19 in the vicinity and 32 in
> Cambridge.
>
Yes, but if you are, say, looking for some _particular_ book, and not
just out to view large numbers of books in general, you are pretty much
on the wrong track in Harvard Square. If you could (theoretically, of
course) park somewhere, and manage to make your way to all nineteen
bookstores without being shot, stabbed, or accosted by some tofu-crazed
street performer, you would find that, in fact, all nineteen stores have
_exactly the same books_. (This is a Cambridge by-law, so that none
of the stores has it's self-esteem damaged, all bookstores must stock
exactly the same books. Another Cambridge by-law is that the great
majority of the books in any bookstore have to be on subjects in which no
living or dead human being (including the book's author) has ever -
even fleetingly - shown any interest in whatsoever (e.g. _A Concise History
of Umbrella Breeding_,)). Anyway, one trip to Borders, and one trip
to the convenient Much-Ado used bookstore (right in Marblehead) will,
in my experience, generally be more much productive (and all-around
_nicer_) than any amount of shopping in Harvard Square.
Man, you should have seen them kicking Edgar Allan Poe
- John Lennon
Steve Dyer
>> Still, for bookstores generally the Square is great. A
>> guide to Cambridge Bookstores lists 19 in the vicinity and 32 in
>> Cambridge.
> Yes, but if you are, say, looking for some _particular_ book, and not
> just out to view large numbers of books in general, you are pretty much
> on the wrong track in Harvard Square. If you could (theoretically, of
> course) park somewhere, and manage to make your way to all nineteen
> bookstores without being shot, stabbed, or accosted by some tofu-crazed
> street performer, you would find that, in fact, all nineteen stores have
> _exactly the same books_.
It is unfortunately the case that there has been a tendency in the
Square over the past decade or so for specialized bookstores to
disappear (Temple Bar became Benetton) and the broad mass-market
bookstores to become more homogeneous, but after a bit of reflection, I
have to say that Harvard Square and Cambridge in general is still a
great place for books. First, if you're looking for a particular book,
you go to the store which specializes in the genre. All 19 stores most
definitely do not have exactly the same books. Mandrake is great for
art and architecture, Schoenhof's for foreign books, Grolier for poetry,
Harvard Book Store for remainders, WGBH Learningsmith (cutesy-icky,
but arguably a bookstore) for science and education, just to name a few.
Slightly further afield are Kate's Mystery Books in Porter Square,
Divinitas in Central Square for religion and philosophy, and Quantum
Books in Kendall Square for computer-related materials. Even among the
more broadly based bookstores (Wordsworth, Barillari, the Coop, Reading
International--what am I forgetting?), there's a difference between
them which you come to appreciate if you spend time in each of them.
> Anyway, one trip to Borders, and one trip
> to the convenient Much-Ado used bookstore (right in Marblehead) will,
> in my experience, generally be more much productive (and all-around
> _nicer_) than any amount of shopping in Harvard Square.
Borders isn't a bad bookstore, but sometimes you're better off
seeing a specialist. Call me a snob, but I have trouble taking
suburban bookstores very seriously: it's a phenomenon similar to
quality restaurants--they become scarcer and scarcer as you move
from the city (here, Boston/Cambridge) to the suburbs, and valiant
attempts to assert standards end up serving Danielle Steele and
Surf 'n Turf as they struggle to survive after their audience doesn't
respond.