Phaistos Disc, sign 44 : the wrap of the goddess ???
Philippe Plagnol
signe 44 of the disque of phaistos.
sorry for my english ;)
my site http://disque.phaistos.free.fr/
or http://membres.lycos.fr/phaistos/
to begin, I suggest that you go on those URLs :
---------------------------------------------------
http://membres.lycos.fr/phaistos/images/deesse2.gif
http://membres.lycos.fr/phaistos/images/robe.gif
http://membres.lycos.fr/phaistos/images/robefleche.jpg
---------------------------------------------------
if it don't work, replace http://membres.lycos.fr/phaistos/ by
http://disque.phaistos.free.fr/
there's 3 pictures : an advice, download it, you can find those
picture together on my site at "les signes"
So !
We all have heard a lot of things about this sign : an head of animal,
an tool, etc...
I really think that it's : the wrap of the goddess.
I was in the library reading a book about minoan civilisation and then
I have seen the shape of this wrap,
you can find this form on a lot of minoan objects, and I have chosen
one of those object, the ring of Isopata
(deesse2.gif)
you will see that the shape is pratically exactly the same, that's
incredible ! the same form !
but there is something which is very good for this hypothesis : the
point !
the point juste inside of this sape which could be a wrap ! and when
you watch the sign 6 (the goddess )
you find again the same form at the bottom and (incredible ;) ) the
point ! showed by the green arrow.
so the goddess created by the scrib wear a wrap, we agree... and on
this wrap, he put a point whereas in archeological
object, there is no point on the wrap of the goddess... the sign 44
have the same shape that the current representation
of the wrap of the goddess and have this point inside : the answer of
the identification of the sign 44 could be
in the disc, in the sign 6...
It's just a proposition,... if it can help you...
It's, may-be, the only brick that I would put on this building in my
life ;)
thank's to be objective ;)
sincerely,
Philippe
O.H.
Addressing my opinon, here it is.
Astronomical guessing:
The sign 14 (&) could as well be a signature for two mountains used as
bearing points for the wandering of the sun. In A23, the dove is to
the left of the two mountain pikes, at the summer solstitial position.
(it always return to centre, the equinoctial point)
s*w
^ .^
With some good will sign 44 (n) in signgroup A07 could be interpreted
as a pentangle and a star. Thus symbolizing the five appearences of
the planet Venus in her 584 days cycle.
584 *
^^^^^
Ole Hagen
NB. A solution key is needed what concerns the understanding of the
pictorial meaning of the signs.
grapheus
I have asked Dr J.Faucounau his opinion about Philippe's suggestion
and I've just got his answer (a very detailed one, that I am summing
up) : he considers Philippe's interpretation as pretty close, and he
is ready to change the one he proposed in his book on page 105 ( "a
cutting-tool") for the following : the drawing would represent "a
piece of fabric, cut to make a dress". The corresponding word would be
"tmaeton" (instead of "*tmaetron"), a word which can be found in
Euripides' and mainly Sophokles' work. (Sophokles is an *ATTIC* author
of the IVth Century BC, and he could still use old Proto-Ionic words).
He considers the "point" inside as representing the "hole, made to
fasten the dress".
grapheus
Philippe Plagnol
> fasten the dress".
that's a good question,... Why a point here ??? may be an hole, maybe a
botton
or (that's what I think ) the localisation of her navel,cause the navel of
the goddess is maybe sacred or because it just her to show that it's a
wrap... al simpely...
I DON'T KNOW....
Hagen
In an earlier message Philippe Plagnol invited to a figure of his:
"étude de répartition des signes du disque"
http://disque.phaistos.free.fr/
His arrangement provides an exellent tool in search for code-patterns
in the inscription.
It effectively reveals several clean relations between the signs.
Plagnol is on the right track! but needs to realize the twenty-two
stem-forms.
By interchanging Sir Arthur Evans numbering with my own alphabetic
notation in such system of co-ordnates, I gain a more clarified
result:
http://www.gvdnet.dk/~hagen/table6.gif
As you will see, all double structures (stems) are nicely
materializing themselves in this illustration.
.
The most perfect expression for these interrealtions is however:
"The Gnomonical arrangement" which is available in my book:
"The Phaistos disc alias the minoan calendar".
http://www.gvdnet.dk/~hagen/phaistos.htm
Cordially
Ole Hagen
grapheus
If you don't know, you should better not criticize the opinion of
people who know (like J.Faucounau) and try to be informed before
emitting stupidities !
1)- the button to close or fasten a garment had not been invented at
the time of the Phaistos Disk.
2)- neither the Minoan nor the Proto-Ionian women used to showing
their navels.
3)- the sign 44 represents a piece of fabric, not the body of a
goddess.
The only reasonable hypothesis is the one I mentioned : the "point" is
a "katakleis" , i.e. a "pre-made hole in a feminine garment (generally
an Attic "egkuklon") in order to put the fibula through, without
tearing the fabric".
(I repeat here information given by J.F., who mentioned to me as a
reference the "Lexique des Antiquites grecques" of Pierre Paris and G.
Roques (1909). See the word "katakleis").
grapheus
Philippe Plagnol
> people who know (like J.Faucounau) and try to be informed before
> emitting stupidities !
ok for the botton it was stupid, sorry ;)
Mr Faucounau, or should I say grapheus : relax ! that's just a wonderful
game, I was not criticizing you ideas about the riddle of the point of the
sign 44,
so, I know that you know everything about all on this planet but I don't
think that it's a hole ! (sorry,... )
an hole to hang up the dress, that's funny : so the goddess can't show his
navel but admit an hole showing her secrets parts ;)
other stupid ideas Mr faucounau,...?? but I have to say that I can't believe
that you have change your first idea (a cutting object) for my
identification of the sign 44 (the dress of the goddess), so now, the
subject is this point... you change ! you admit when you're wrong : you're
on the good track, if you continue, we could have a discussion ;)
vous avez quel âge au fait Mr faucounau ? moi, j'ai 22 ans... je suis sûr
que vous avez le triple, vous pourriez être mon grand-père, non ?
amicalement,
Philippe ;)
grapheus
Why are you so STUBBORN ?.. I've never met such a stubborn and
ignarrogant person like you !
1)- You go on confusing me with J.Faucounau, who is a respected
scholar, more than 75 years old, in spite of what I wrote. A FALSE
"INTUITION" of yours, but that you stubbornly refuse to abandon !..
The idea that J.F.'s remarkable theories may have convinced other
younger scholars is unbearable to you !..
2)- You still deny that Greek women used a HOLE to fasten their dress,
what shows not only your IGNORANCE, but a stubborn refusal to be
informed, in spite of the reference I gave you !.. As you understand
French, here is the exact quote of the "Lexique des Antiquités
grecques", under the word "katakleis" : "Trou préparé dans un vêtement
de femme pour faire passer l'épingle d'une fibule sans la déchirer".
Please go to any library (there are very good ones in Paris !) and
CHECK by yourself, YOU the IGNARROGANT !.. And stop accusing true
scholars "to know everything about all", in the stupid belief that YOU
are knowing BETTER !..
grapheus
Philippe Plagnol
question :
How old are you ??? you could surely be my grand-father... no ?
faucounau = grapheus
http://groups.google.fr/groups?q=grapheus+faucounau&hl=fr&selm=94bipe%2457s%
241%40nnrp1.deja.com&rnum=1
I have don't the same experience that Franz Gnaedinger :
X-Files : tadada tada tada da da....
Mr Faucounau have an proto-ionian alien called grapheus in the head !!!
he comes for a planet where peolpe know everything about all...
friendly,
philippe ;) the french student
Philippe Plagnol
cir...@access.ch wrote: ...
In my reply from Saturday I left out the N azi league
of sci.archaeology. These loons believe in the phantasma
according to PudorGoeringSpanuth: Atlantis in front of
Helgoland was the 'motherland of racial selecct breeding
and colonization', home of the Aryan "Lichtmenschen",
origin of the Greeks. Eric Stevens alias Eric Spammer,
"Fuehrer" of that league, abuses our forum as his own
personal chatroom. If that .... of an ... can't keep
away from me I will say more.
Jean Faucounau, unable of convinicng me, found consolation
in the support from the German member of that N azi league.
Hiding behind grapheus he goes on attacking me, therefore
I say a word about my strange encounter with JF.
Jean Faucounau sent me a series of e-mails in November 1999,
and another one in November 2000. He always complained about
my enthusiasm over Derk Ohlenroth's translation of the Phaistos
Disk, which he didn't know, yet he was quite SURE that Ohlenroth
is WRONG, and he can PROVE it. I always asked in vain for his
translation of the Phaistos Disk, and he never told me anything
on his proto-Ionians. All he did was complain, using CAPITALS
ALL THE TIME: how can 'a scholar of your caliber' follow Derk
Ohlenroth when I, Jean Faucounau, PROVED that Ohlenroth must
be WRONG! In November 2000 he asked me for private lessons on
Egyptian and Babylonian mathematics, I gave him all the lessons
and many further informations he asked me for, spending many
hours and quite some money for him. Then he asked me if he can
publish one of my number patterns in an article on Babylonian
mathematics and even asked me if I had discovered clay tablet
YBC 7289. This made me wonder: how can he publish an article
on a topic of which he obviously has ino idea? My doubting made
him sort of piqued, and when I asked him to stop sending me
complaining e-mails and instead read Derk Ohlenroth's book he
wrote an angry reply, telling me that I am hard to work with.
Really nice. I gave him all the lessons and informations he
asked me for, whereas he told me nothing, apart from repeating
ever the same phrases, and then he calls me hard to work with.
From then on I got no more e-mails from him. His publishing
house L'Harmattan calls him a "mathematicien de formation"
= a teacher of mathematics, while he proudly calls himself
a mathematician on his webpage - a title he does surely not
deserve, as his e-mails to me made very clear. Jean Faucounau
says that only the original of the Phaistos Disk counts, but
he shows no photograph of side B, only a drawing, which he
manipulated by replacing an original pictogram that appears
twice on side B and only on side B (Evans 20) by a different
drawing of his own. He claims to be a scholar, but he is
a hobby linguist, and his cheating turns him in a kook. His
free translating method allows to project anything in the
pictograms, his linear and morose translation of the Phaistos
Disk is a blind window on the past, and his proto-Ionians are
something like a "deus ex machina", they explain everything
but no explanation leads anywhere.
Jean Faucounau, once again: I did not give you my permission
to publish any part of my work. My number patterns are my
discoveries from 1979 and 1993. Publish your own insights,
not mine.
Soon after Jean Faucounau sent me his last e-mail, grapheus
showed up in the Usenet, where he makes propaganda for Jean
Faucounau in several groups, arguing in the very same way
and by the very same phrases as Jean Fuacounau, making the
VERY SAME EXCESSIVE USE OF CAPITALS, never telling anything,
never providing any informations on his 'proto-Ionians',
repeating ever the same phrases, fibbing, and consealing
Jean Faucounau's fraud by SHOUTING EVER LOUDER. He claims
to be a scholar, but he outed himself as a kook. I gave him
several chances to end our discussion, but he made only fun
of me, provoking me deliberately and repeatedly, so I finally
published my debunking article, which I repeat below.
How Jean Faucounau made up his 'translation' of the PhD
Jean Faucounau wrote his booklet in the pluralis majestatis,
always affirming: nous avons prouve, nous avons prouve, nous
avons prouve ... He believes that an ancient scribe stamped
an important document regarding the life and death of a ruler
by the name of Argos on the two sides of a clay disk without
using a model or a preliminary drawing, manoeuvring himself
in a problem of lacking writing space in the center of one
of the spirals (nevertheless repeating a sentence, whithout
any reason). Now Jean Faucounau interpretes the pictograms
as pictures and uses the first letter or syllable of the
corresponding Greek word as phonetical value. For example
he interpretes the cypress - similar trees are seen on the
golden signet ring from the robber's cache at Tiryns, 15th
century BC, kept in the National Museum of Athens, object
nr. 6208 - as club, relying on later depictions of clubs,
and the walking man by the cypress as a running young man.
A club was called rhopalon, providing an 'r', a young man
was called kouros, providing a kou, which he turns in ko/ku,
go/gu, cho/chu, thus obtaining the following combinations:
r-ko r-ku r-go r-gu r-cho r-chu
He chooses r-go and reads Argos, name of a ruler and a town.
Taking the same r-go and using my small dictionary I keep
at home I find more words:
Argo - ship of the Argonauts
argos - shining, white; speedy, quick, swift
argos - not working, idle; lazy; useless; lying fallow;
undone
ergon - work; deed, action, enterprise; incident, fact;
occupation, job; execution, performance, business,
profession; war, fight; labour, toil, difficulty;
work (of art); thing, object, affair
ergo - indeed, actually
ergo / eirgo - include, imprison; arrest; exclude; hold
back, hinder, forbid; med. abstain from,
drain off; spare, exempt from
Now I may consider the five other variants. Then I could go
to my university library and consult a Greek Thesaurus and
the 47 volumes of Pauly's enclopedy of classical antiquity,
wherein I find many more words and meanings; argo for example
also means a special kind of wood. Moreover I can interprete
the signs in different ways: I can see a cypress (kyparittos),
or simply a tree (dendron); a man (anaer), a symbol of walking
(badizein), or a messenger (aggelos). The new phonetical values
(ky, de)(an, ba, ag) allow me to find many more words. I asked
grapheus repeatedly for Jean Faucounau's interpretation of the
pictogram in the shape of roughly a leave whose curved hatching
indicates a volume (Evans 20), occurring twice on the side of
which Faucounau shows no photograph, only a drawing. Grapheus
never answered my question, so I looked up Jean Faucounau's
booklet in a library. And I was surprised: the sign is drawn
falsely, showing a jug with a round bulge, a slender neck,
a slim round handle, no hatching, but a space between the
handle and the neck ... When I can freely interprete a sign,
modify the phonetical values (kou--- go---) and even replace
a pictogram by a drawing of my own (Evans 20 by a jug) I can
"bricoler" any translation. Not surprisingly Jean Faucounau's
translation consists of very short linear sentences, and the
texts are disappointing. Derk Ohlenroth's translation is most
surprising, highly complex, consisting of long sentences.
Derk Ohlenroth opened a window on a long gone past; all the
others including Jean Faucounau painted a window on the wall.
Michael Ventris deciphered Linear B on June 1, 1952, Derk
Ohlenroth translated the Phaistos Disk one evening in 1981,
within two hours - they had a good idea, it worked, and so
they succeeded quickly. Jean Faucounau needed seven years
for his 'translation', he had all the time for making it up.
Franz Gnaedinger Zurich cir...@access.ch
Eric Stevens
<philippe...@free.fr> wrote:
>In article <9537tc$7s4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> cir...@access.ch wrote: ...
>
>In my reply from Saturday I left out the N azi league
>of sci.archaeology. These loons believe in the phantasma ...
I read two lines and believed in reincarnation. :-)
Speak of the devil ...
Regards,
Eric Stevens
grapheus
>
> Franz Gnaedinger Zurich cir...@access.ch
So, this is your source, Philippe ?.. This CRAZY guy from Zurich ?..
All my congratulations !..
Franz Gnaedinger, Thierry Meyssan, Philippe Plagnol : birds of same
feather flock together !...
grapheus
grapheus
And Philippe Plagnol = Franz Gnaedinger = Thierry Meyssan.
grapheus
Philippe Plagnol
(capital letters all the time,...) you answered always very fast...
so, spirit, little spirt, are you here ?? do you hear me ??
are you the spirit namd grapheus ?? If you are this spirit plese, let Mr
faucounau, he is a nice man who just think that he is champollion, so go
away from his head,...
if you are not in his head, tell us your name, stop to be coward, tell us
where you live, what you eat the morning, the name of your dog,...
tell us little spirit ;)
Philippe Plagnol
everything on this planet !
but, thank's, because you speak about this disc and help it to not fall into
oblivion,
thank's philippe
grapheus
> How do you know that ! that's incredible ! so that's true, you know
> everything on this planet !
Hey, Franz !
It's very clever to change your name ! But the Devil may change his
hat. His horns are still visible !
> but, thank's, because you speak about this disc and help it to not fall into
> oblivion,
>
> thank's philippe
No thanks, please !... You won't fool anybody in this group ! We all
know you too well !
grapheus
grapheus
> tell us little spirit ;)
Hey, Franz !
You have now unmasked yourself !.. Everybody has recognized your
inimitable whimpering way to pose as a victim of these bad guys on the
net who don't notice your genius !.. There is NO "French student" !
There is the same old mean Franz, with his same old way of ducking any
scientific discussion and diverting it towards personal attacks !..
There is the same old evil-minded guy, with his lots of insults !.. Go
back to hell, Mr Gnaedinger/Plagnol !..
grapheus
Philippe Plagnol
country...
grapheus
> that's funny ;) so please grapheus, give us your name you university, your
> country...
If you believe that I will answer a question coming from a masquerader
like you, you are REALLY STUPID ! (in CAPITAL letters !)
What has this to do with archaeology or linguistics ?.. Could you tell
us, Franz aka Philippe ?
He doth not sleep...
Philippe Plagnol a écrit (¤) :
Philippe Plagnol n'a pas respecté le niveau de citation ;
à chacun de se démerder avec cette bibine indigeste en
saxophone pour savoir qui de Plagnol ou / = Gnaedinger
écrit quoÿ…
Non, vous mentez. Quatrième de couverture du
« Déchiffrement du disque de Phaistos » : « Jean
Faucounau est un mathématicien de formation,
intéressé de longue date par la linguistique. Il est
polytechnicien et membre de la Société de Linguistique
de Paris. » Aucunement prétendu « professeur de
Mathématique ». S'il est difficile d'apprécier la formation
de qui que ce soit, pour un flique soupçonneux, il devrait
être assez aisé de consulter les annuaires de l'École
polytechnique, qu'on ne pouvait – au moins à l'époque
de Faucounau – « intégrer » sans de solides connaissances
mathématiques acquises en « Sup' » et en « Spé' ». Quant à
la Société de Linguistique de Paris, se référer à ses statuts,
voir si elle pratique une sélection – sur le savoir, le conformisme ? –
à l'adhésion. Donc, du boulot pour les petits fliques.
> while he proudly calls himself a mathematician on his webpage -
> a title he does surely not deserve, as his e-mails to me made very
> clear. Jean Faucounau says that only the original of the Phaistos
> Disk counts,
On cite ses sources, et précisément : où ?
> but he shows no photograph of side B, only a drawing, which he
> manipulated by replacing an original pictogram that appears
> twice on side B and only on side B (Evans 20) by a different
> drawing of his own.
Nouveau mensonge. Certes, L'Harmattan est un éditeur intéressant –
où trouver ailleurs que chez lui une grosse grammaire de l'aztèque ?… –,
mais « cheap », très « cheap » ; à la limite du craouatte. Qu'il n'y ait pas
de photographies du so-called disque de Phaistos, est-ce délibéré de
la part de Jean Faucounau, ou une économie imposée par l'éditeur
(après tout, des photographies de ce disque, on en trouve assez facilement) ?
Et si vous regardez les pages 8, 9 et 10 du « Déchiffrement… » – reprises
en 22-24 des « Proto-Ioniens – Histoire d'un peuple oublié » – vous verrez que
figure la mention « (d'après Evans) ». Et que Faucounau ne manipule rien du tout,
qu'il ne remplace pas le « pictogramme » 20 par un dessin de sa composition ; car
ce tripatouillage a déjà été fait en amont, par Evans. Consultez le premier bouquin
qui tombe sous la main de mon bel AmphigouriX, « Le déchiffrement des écritures »,
d'Ernst Doblhofer, Arthaud, 1959 : planche 37, face à la page 249, deux photographies
petites mais très nettes du disque – « de forme ronde »… © Faucounau © ! –, où
le « 20 » est en effet un truc informe, et page 277, figure 85, la liste des 45 « signes
du disque de Phaistos », où le « 20 » est transformé en une jolie cruche avec bec à
gauche et anse à droite – alors que le graphique d'Evans dans sa table en respecte
le caractère informe – ! et en pages 278-279 la restitution d'Evans, sans qu'il soit crédité
pour le tracé. Quand dit mon bel AmphigouriX que « Faucounau ne manipule rien du tout »,
c'est façon de parler : Faucounau réutilise sans critique la manipulation.
> He claims to be a scholar, but he is a hobby linguist,
Hi ! hi ! Champollion, Chadwick, Ventris… Jamais les « scholars »
ne digéreront l'affront !
Pourquoi les erreurs communes de copistes sur papyrus, parchemin,
pierre… ne pourraient-elles pas se retrouver sur le « disque de forme ronde » ?…
« grapheus » ne répond JAMAIS aux questions. La tout première étant :
« Ce machin /de forme ronde/ et providentiel est-il authentique ? »…
> so I looked up Jean Faucounau's booklet in a library.
Radin ! rapiat ! avare ! rat ! le bouquin coûte 114,07 F ! et les deux suivants
85,37 F et 104,69 F. Là-dessus, sur les trois ouvrages, la part de Faucounau
doit être de 35 F environ… Sûrement, mon bel AmphigouriX doit être le SEUL –
pardonnez ce grapheusisme… – à avoir acquis à titre onéreux ces trois ouvrages,
n'en ayant encore lu que deux. Les autres en causent en les ayant – mal – lu
en bib'iothèque, à l'œil, ou même pas du tout
> And I was surprised: the sign is drawn falsely,
Par Evans, dans son tracé de la face B, pas dans la liste ;
certes, Faucounau est complice.
> showing a jug with a round bulge, a slender neck,
> a slim round handle, no hatching, but a space between the
> handle and the neck ... When I can freely interprete a sign,
> modify the phonetical values (kou--- go---) and even replace
> a pictogram by a drawing of my own (Evans 20 by a jug) I can
> "bricoler" any translation. Not surprisingly Jean Faucounau's
> translation consists of very short linear sentences, and the
> texts are disappointing. Derk Ohlenroth's translation is most
> surprising, highly complex, consisting of long sentences.
> Derk Ohlenroth opened a window on a long gone past; all the
> others including Jean Faucounau painted a window on the wall.
> Michael Ventris deciphered Linear B on June 1, 1952, Derk
> Ohlenroth translated the Phaistos Disk one evening in 1981,
> within two hours - they had a good idea, it worked, and so
> they succeeded quickly. Jean Faucounau needed seven years
> for his 'translation', he had all the time for making it up.
>
> Franz Gnaedinger Zurich cir...@access.ch
¤
From: Philippe Plagnol <philippe...@free.fr>
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology, sci.lang
Subject: grapheus = faucounau ?
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 09:58:21 +0100
Message-ID: <3ca2dc28$0$5011$626a...@news.free.fr>
References: <468ab1bf.02031...@posting.google.com> <337ae51f.0203...@posting.google.com>
<3ca1d466$0$4985$626a...@news.free.fr>
<337ae51f.02032...@posting.google.com>
<3ca24201$0$5005$626a...@news.free.fr>
<337ae51f.02032...@posting.google.com>
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grapheus
> 7 thermidor an ⅭⅭⅩⅠⅠ (le 26 juillet 2004 d. c.-d. c. g.), 13h36.
>
> Philippe Plagnol a écrit (¤) :
are coming on this group !..
grapheus
J'ai mal dormi...
« The Fool. », Gilbert Montagné.
« grapheus » a écrit (¤) :
> He doth not sleep… wrote (news:ce2vf2$g8i$4...@aphrodite.grec.isp.9tel.net) :
>> 7 thermidor an ⅭⅭⅩⅠⅠ (le 26 juillet 2004 d. c.-d. c. g.), 13h36.
>>
>> Philippe Plagnol a écrit :
>
> HELP !.. French spammers, inspired by Franz Gnaedinger's old posts,
> are coming on this group !..
He doth not sleep… are coming rien du tout ; He doth not sleep…
a PROUVÉ tout simplement qu'aussi bien Plagnol que « grapheus »
mentent comme ils respirent.
> grapheus
¤
From: grap...@www.com (grapheus)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology, sci.lang
Subject: Re: grapheus = faucounau ?
Date: 26 Jul 2004 13:01:18 -0700
Message-ID: <337ae51f.04072...@posting.google.com>
References: <ce2vf2$g8i$4...@aphrodite.grec.isp.9tel.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:01:19 +0000 (UTC)
Xref: uni-berlin.de sci.archaeology:275644 sci.lang:284235
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