CL: prayer of the day
Helpful GM
[pray <playername>] I am having some serious lag problems right now, I
need your help, like now.
---
Uh huh. I'll get right on that ;)
--
You have to remove stuff from my e-mail to reply, it's not difficult
I will not, no matter how "good" the deal, ever purchase any product from
any company which gathers addresses from the usenet; period.
Alexandre Charbonneau
<HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> [pray <playername>] I am having some serious lag problems right now, I
> need your help, like now.
>
> ---
>
> Uh huh. I'll get right on that ;)
Got that right HGM, we should just remove the /pray command. Perhaps
that silly person was looking for tech support. After all, everyone is
familiar with computer stuff right? But you are probably just too good
for <playername> and simply ignored him/her, right?
Ziff Rengar
Frank Böhm / DSP
> need your help, like now.
>
> ---
>
> Uh huh. I'll get right on that ;)
I wish HGM would have to use my current connection for one month. Certainly
some time-out mechanism etc. would be added.
Good for you, if you dont have any screen-locks or lag.
But actually, _we_ are the paying customers; it certainly is DTs task to
create a technically working background. They did not. Chosing home.net
(with its evil global peering) is a Bad Idea (TM). I told Joe, as did
others. You dont really want to know what he replied, but you might guess
it.
After the second multi-minute screenlock due to home.net screwups, I didnt
even made it back to library.
Well, too bad I paid for a year in advance :/
I really enjoy (or better: enjoyed) this game, but right now I cant suggest
anyone to buy it. Sorry.
Haenk
rjkinney
Yeah, I'm with Ziff on this one HGM. I mean I can see how that could
be phrased better... but perhaps they really did need some help
getting back to the library due to lag and time commitments. No one
expects GMs to help every player out of the blue when they claim "it
lags! it lags!", but if they do need help, and havent been the type of
person to abuse such help in the past, why not?
Like ziff said, not everyone is familiar with computer lag, when not
to play because it is laggy, or what-not. Like I said, they could have
phrased for better results and such... but still, giving him/her a
quick teleport to the library to /sleep it off wouldnt have been so
hard, right?
-Jotran
Axell
> [pray <playername>] I am having some serious lag problems right now, I
> need your help, like now.
Well, when you are in town center with a 2700ms ping to the server, its
*impossible* to reach the library.
Was it the case for the player ?
--
Axell
ser Slyph
brig...@brighteruniverse.com (rjkinney) wrote:
> Yeah, I'm with Ziff on this one HGM. I mean I can see how that could
> be phrased better... but perhaps they really did need some help
> getting back to the library due to lag and time commitments. No one
> expects GMs to help every player out of the blue when they claim "it
> lags! it lags!", but if they do need help, and havent been the type of
> person to abuse such help in the past, why not?
>
> Like ziff said, not everyone is familiar with computer lag, when not
> to play because it is laggy, or what-not. Like I said, they could have
> phrased for better results and such... but still, giving him/her a
> quick teleport to the library to /sleep it off wouldnt have been so
> hard, right?
>
> -Jotran
And I, respectfully, have to say that when I first read that
/prayer, I saw it in the same funny way HelpfulGM might have
*because* of the way the player chose to phrase it.
Attributing callousness, as some other posters did, to
HelpfulGM is just too easy to do when you might not even know all
the factors. HGM often is in the game and doing other things,
and comes back to read his text file that might have /bugs and
/prayers in them, right? Maybe he couldn't even help the person,
or, since the person *could* have been joking or was being
unclear, he didn't think much of it. I certainly didn't.
Just another spin on the same /prayer that folks might be
ignoring.
-Slyph
--
"At some point I'm going to disagree with every individual who has liked or
tolerated me in the past, and at that point the person gets all surprised and
indignant and says that I've gotten stupider, when in fact they're just being
a pumpkin head at the moment." -- Outcast
Helpful GM
<fr...@dsp-info.com> wrote:
I'm sorry you're having lag.
I have lag, too. But that's because I live in the sticks (literally!)
and share a 33.3k modem with the rest of the house.
("Stop downloading stuff, I'm trying to kill things, here!")
The point, of course, is that I can't fix your lag. If I *COULD* fix
your lag, I would, but I can't. And /praying or /bugging things like "I
need <some kind of customer service>, like now!" is funny -- you *DO*
see that it's funny, right?
And I can't see how, just because you have a crappy connection, you
can't recommend a game that you like to others. The lag is not Clan
Lord -- it's somewhere in the internet between you & there. Your
friends might have a perfectly clean connection. "I'd recommend this
movie, but my eyesight is going bad, so I don't think you'd enjoy it"?!?!
Warren J. Dew
Like ziff said, not everyone is familiar with computer lag,
when not to play because it is laggy, or what-not. Like I
said, they could have phrased for better results and such...
but still, giving him/her a quick teleport to the library
to /sleep it off wouldnt have been so hard, right?
While the sentiment is nice, this might be a 'tough love' situation.
Ultimately, one probably wants such players to learn not to play when it is
laggy (or to hunt with unlagged friends who will guard you when you disconnect
until you disappear). Teaching people that the way to handle lag is to pray to
a gamesmaster may not be the right lesson.
(Okay, ultimately what one wants is for the service providers to provide enough
capacity to eliminate lag, but Delta Tao can't do a lot about that. The best
they could do is move to a better service provider, but they might be trapped
in a long term contract.)
Warren J. Dew
Powderhouse Software
Kirth Gersen
> some time-out mechanism etc. would be added.
>
> Good for you, if you dont have any screen-locks or lag.
>
Unfortunately I (as very new Exile) have to shout "Aye!" to this. Lag
from over where HWC sits (Sweden) is severe, and from one point of
contact, the connection has been totally dead for one week now (that
includes connection to the Delta Tao website!). It is a two-way
matter. DeltaTao is paying an ISP to allow us, DTs paying customers,
to log on to their server. We, on the other side, are paying our ISP
to allow us to connect to stuff on the net. Both of us must act, but I
believe DT has a little bit more leverage than individual players...
But what do I know?
I am glad HWC can log onto the CL server from work now and then! ;-)
/Kirth Gersen
Helpful GM
> (Okay, ultimately what one wants is for the service providers to provide
> enough
> capacity to eliminate lag, but Delta Tao can't do a lot about that. The
> best
> they could do is move to a better service provider, but they might be
> trapped in a long term contract.)
The clan lord server is currently running at 91ms per frame (about 11
fps, but scaled back to send them out at 4fps), and the pipe-bandwidth
is at about 10%.
Sometimes, during prime-time, the pipe fills up to about 35-40%.
Except when there are hardware problems (happened 2ce in 4 yrs, that I
know about), the DT data-pipe has never been over 60% full.
The problem isn't that DT needs a better provider, it's that YOU (laggy
players) need a better provider. Or your provider needs a better
provider. Or that SOMEWHERE between DT's provider and your provider,
there's some slacker-router that neither of us controls screwing things
up. (Didn't gb-planet, or something like that used to be a frequent
one, until the various local ISPs took them out of the loop?)
There is no amount of money or good-will that DT could possibly spend to
make your connection any better.
Well, that's not 100% true. You could move to San Francisco and plug
right into the back of the server -- but that seems excessive for a
game, even Clan Lord.
Jazz
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> The problem isn't that DT needs a better provider, it's that YOU (laggy
> players) need a better provider. Or your provider needs a better
> provider. Or that SOMEWHERE between DT's provider and your provider,
> there's some slacker-router that neither of us controls screwing things
> up.
Utter horses&^% and you know it.
The problem here _is_ DTs provider... period. It's a frickin online
gaming company.. they will _always_ have problems. It doesn't matter
squat if the local DT pipe to said gaming company is only 10% full when
the routers only two and three hops away are totally jammed. HGM you
know full well that a lot of players are technically savvy and are going
to cry foul of this one. I'm not saying there's anything anybody can do,
but it really is DTs provider (or one of the provider's provider in this
case) that is the problem. If you need proof I'm sure a LOT of exiles
would be happy to flood you with traces. ;)
At any rate... unless DT sprung for some private high speed line there
will always be lag problems so no use worrying about it. There's always
the chat aspect of CL.. which can be fun in fog trying to anticipate the
conversation. ;)
--
Bang a rang!
Warren J. Dew
Except when there are hardware problems (happened 2ce in 4
yrs, that I know about), the DT data-pipe has never been
over 60% full.
Okay, thanks for the info.
(A minor nit: a service provider can provide a good pipe, but still be a bad
service provider, by providing poor upstream connectivity to the rest of the
internet. That said, I don't have any evidence that's the case with Delta Tao;
certainly in my case, network problems - which have been rare as I have a
pretty good provider - have generally been at my end, or at least in the
middle.)
A separate but related issue: recently, on shoulder periods immediately before
and after prime time, frames get a little irregular and the average seems to
drop below 4. The problem disappears during prime time (well, the average
drops to 3, but they become regular again). Is the server running close to
flat out, and maybe all the way flat out at these times? Or is that problem on
my end also (possible, as I'm in the U.S., so prime time is prime time).
Helpful GM
> Helpful GM posts, in part:
>
> Except when there are hardware problems (happened 2ce in 4
> yrs, that I know about), the DT data-pipe has never been
> over 60% full.
>
> Okay, thanks for the info.
>
> (A minor nit: a service provider can provide a good pipe, but still be a
> bad
> service provider, by providing poor upstream connectivity to the rest of
> the
> internet. That said, I don't have any evidence that's the case with
> Delta Tao;
> certainly in my case, network problems - which have been rare as I have a
> pretty good provider - have generally been at my end, or at least in the
> middle.)
Agreed. What I'm trying to point out is that DT has done a lot of work
in this area, to make sure they have solid connectivity to the backbone.
What happens between there and you, DT can't control.
> A separate but related issue: recently, on shoulder periods immediately
> before
> and after prime time, frames get a little irregular and the average seems
> to
> drop below 4. The problem disappears during prime time (well, the
> average
> drops to 3, but they become regular again). Is the server running close
> to
> flat out, and maybe all the way flat out at these times? Or is that
> problem on
> my end also (possible, as I'm in the U.S., so prime time is prime time).
I think they're yours. Logs show a pretty clean cut-over from 4 to 3
and 3 to 4fps at just the right time.
You can tell when work is being done on the update, on update days,
because things can get REALLY laggy -- sometimes it drops to 1-2fps.
That's mostly the server-machine thrashing as the next version server is
brought-up while the current-version server is still running. The price
we pay for short-down-time between updates. The other option is ~30
minutes between updates as one server is broght down and another brought
up. Or you could offer to buy some VERY EXPENSIVE RAM for the server ;)
Helpful GM
<jazz_...@zeroecho.com> wrote:
> In article <HelpfulGM-CEDCB...@news.apple.com>,
> Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
>
> > The problem isn't that DT needs a better provider, it's that YOU (laggy
> > players) need a better provider. Or your provider needs a better
> > provider. Or that SOMEWHERE between DT's provider and your provider,
> > there's some slacker-router that neither of us controls screwing things
> > up.
>
> Utter horses&^% and you know it.
>
> The problem here _is_ DTs provider... period. It's a frickin online
> gaming company.. they will _always_ have problems. It doesn't matter
> squat if the local DT pipe to said gaming company is only 10% full when
> the routers only two and three hops away are totally jammed.
You are grossly mistaken.
The server RESIDES at said game company. The pipe OUT -- on the way to
the backbone -- is the one that's hardly at all full.
The whole point is that, once the data gets to the backbone, NO ONE FROM
DT CONTROLS what crappy routers it goes through to get to you. When a
problem router is spotted, we can write the owner and gripe, or the
owner's upline and ask that they be taken out of the path -- and we do
that -- but you can, too.
But DT can't "fix the internet."
...And watch your language.
lorikeet
Helpful GM wrote:
> Well, that's not 100% true. You could move to San Francisco and plug
> right into the back of the server -- but that seems excessive for a
> game, even Clan Lord.
Tell me how to plug into the back of the server. I'm in San Francisco and I
get lag from a Sprintlink router along the way. At one time it was as high
as 1900, but usually closer to 700. Now it's "down" to 300 in the evening
and I live with it. Afternoons and late at night it gets better.
Lorikeet
Mike
> You can tell when work is being done on the update, on update days,
> because things can get REALLY laggy -- sometimes it drops to 1-2fps.
> That's mostly the server-machine thrashing as the next version server is
> brought-up while the current-version server is still running. The price
> we pay for short-down-time between updates. The other option is ~30
> minutes between updates as one server is broght down and another brought
> up. Or you could offer to buy some VERY EXPENSIVE RAM for the server ;)
How about a warning? Not much blows more than being in the valley when
it suddenly kicks into 2fps while the critters seem to be moving along
just fine. I have even gotten total lock ups from the server being
updated.
Post something in the news, and fix the news so it shows up in everyones
side bar that is already clanning when something is changed.
And yes, this way is better than taking the server down every day like
UO does.
Michael
Hidden
<HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> The clan lord server is currently running at 91ms per frame (about 11
> fps, but scaled back to send them out at 4fps), and the pipe-bandwidth
> is at about 10%.
>
> Sometimes, during prime-time, the pipe fills up to about 35-40%.
Explain this? Is this because more people are playing, or because the pipe
itself is drastically reduced? I only see 80 people on during the average
primetime, as opposed to 100+ before and after. That number just doesn't
seem right.
> Well, that's not 100% true. You could move to San Francisco and plug
> right into the back of the server -- but that seems excessive for a
> game, even Clan Lord.
I guarantee you that at some point, somebody will try that :P
--
-Hidden the Thoom, hid...@astralvisions.org
"One small step for man, one giant...[static]...STOP POKING ME!"
-- Protoss Observer, StarCraft && Orc, WarCraft --
Phelps
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> And I can't see how, just because you have a crappy connection, you
> can't recommend a game that you like to others. The lag is not Clan
> Lord -- it's somewhere in the internet between you & there. Your
> friends might have a perfectly clean connection. "I'd recommend this
> movie, but my eyesight is going bad, so I don't think you'd enjoy it"?!?!
Bad analogy. A better analogy is "I saw that movie in the Ritzy in
BigCity and liked it, but the Dumpy-plex here in Smallville breaks the
film four times a showing and the sound is always too low. Save your
$7."
Of course, the solution is for the distributor to drop the Mega-plex
chain of theaters (who owns the Ritzy and the Dumpy-plex) and go with
Consisti-max, who has theaters in every city that aren't as nice as the
Ritzy but TONS better than the Dumply-plex.
HWC for Phelps, figuring that obscure analogies taken too far is H-GM's
native tongue
obPhelpses of the World prefer random noises
obBalanceTaxSDB
--
Affiliation medals are tyranny.
Warren J. Dew
Agreed. What I'm trying to point out is that DT has done a
lot of work in this area, to make sure they have solid
connectivity to the backbone. What happens between there
and you, DT can't control.
Okay. That's good to know.
I would point out, for any others who might be selecting service providers,
that there isn't a single 'backbone' to the internet. Depending on how you
look at it, there's either no backbone - just of bunch of networks connected
together - or a whole bunch of backbones, provided by various major service
providers. Service providers do have some control over what happens 'on the
backbone', either because they own part of the backbone (if they are big), or
they have contracts with the backbone providers that have performance
standards.
For example, my service provider (RCN) guarantees a 70ms maximum latency to any
point on their backbone. Of course, that's just their backbone, and since they
are regional, their backbone only extends through the northeastern U.S.; it
doesn't apply to packets that go beyond Washington DC or so, for example.
Still, it's better than nothing.
Anyone having a choice of service providers - I'm lucky enough to have a choice
of two cable modem providers and a DSL provider - might want to ask some
questions about similar guarantees or typical performance before selecting one.
There aren't really any 'good' service providers out there, but there's a big
difference between 'mediocre' and 'horrendous'.
Maeght
<HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> Well, that's not 100% true. You could move to San Francisco and plug
> right into the back of the server -- but that seems excessive for a
> game, even Clan Lord.
Don't give me that. How much would it cost?
- Maeght
Frank Böhm / DSP
> I'm sorry you're having lag.
>
> I have lag, too. But that's because I live in the sticks (literally!)
> and share a 33.3k modem with the rest of the house.
>
> ("Stop downloading stuff, I'm trying to kill things, here!")
>
> The point, of course, is that I can't fix your lag. If I *COULD* fix
> your lag, I would, but I can't. And /praying or /bugging things like "I
> need <some kind of customer service>, like now!" is funny -- you *DO*
> see that it's funny, right?
>
> And I can't see how, just because you have a crappy connection, you
> can't recommend a game that you like to others. The lag is not Clan
> Lord -- it's somewhere in the internet between you & there. Your
> friends might have a perfectly clean connection. "I'd recommend this
> movie, but my eyesight is going bad, so I don't think you'd enjoy it"?!?!
a) I dont have a crappy connection. Its a non-shared ISDN line, which
usually gives me around 7k of download speed from USA.
b) Lag happens due to a crappy DT backbone. This has been discussed before;
lots of traceroutes proving this have been provied. Hopefully home.net goes
out of business soon, so DT _has_ to take care of another connection. This
is very well within the possibilities of DT to change it. You get what you
pay for - this also proves right for "cheap" (read: crappy) ISPs.
c) I usually have no problem playing with a ping of 600ms - but I suffered
from screenlocks a lot lately. This turned out to be home.net backbones
getting overloaded or going down completely. (see point b).
d) I didnt expect any helpful answer (and actually didnt get one).
e) I dont see any funny thing in screenlocking out somewhere in the
wildness. The whole party has to stop until you either poof or reappear.
Most likely you will connect when the party already moved on; so you could
try to run to catch up or /depart. Thats fun, isnt it? (Try that on KI or
EP).
Haenk
Frank Böhm / DSP
> The clan lord server is currently running at 91ms per frame (about 11
> fps, but scaled back to send them out at 4fps), and the pipe-bandwidth
> is at about 10%.
>
> Sometimes, during prime-time, the pipe fills up to about 35-40%.
>
> Except when there are hardware problems (happened 2ce in 4 yrs, that I
> know about), the DT data-pipe has never been over 60% full.
>
> The problem isn't that DT needs a better provider, it's that YOU (laggy
> players) need a better provider. Or your provider needs a better
> provider. Or that SOMEWHERE between DT's provider and your provider,
> there's some slacker-router that neither of us controls screwing things
> up. (Didn't gb-planet, or something like that used to be a frequent
> one, until the various local ISPs took them out of the loop?)
Bingo. You are on the right way here.
>
> There is no amount of money or good-will that DT could possibly spend to
> make your connection any better.
And here you didnt get it, again.
The magical words are "peering" and "bandwidth utilization". "Good" ISPs
will invest some money into peering contracts.
And wont run their backbones at 120%, like home.net.
Maybe ask someone who is knowledgable about these things.
>
> Well, that's not 100% true. You could move to San Francisco and plug
> right into the back of the server -- but that seems excessive for a
> game, even Clan Lord.
Thats complete BS.
Haenk
Kirth Gersen
> Well, when you are in town center with a 2700ms ping to the server, its
> *impossible* to reach the library.
Axell, trust me, it is _not_ impossible. Just a few days ago I made it
out of Healer's library, to town square, chat for a bit, and then back
to library.
With a latency of 4100 ms!!! Yes, sir, that is four (4) seconds.
But... it was not enjoyable, though quite doable.
/Kirth
Jazz
> Anyone having a choice of service providers - I'm lucky enough to have a
> choice
> of two cable modem providers and a DSL provider - might want to ask some
> questions about similar guarantees or typical performance before selecting
> one.
> There aren't really any 'good' service providers out there, but there's a
> big
> difference between 'mediocre' and 'horrendous'.
Well said Warren. The problem a lot of these people have isn't that they
don't know what's going on, but that they are frustrated with the gaming
service that DT has chosen, Pogo. Like any even 'mediocre' provider I've
no doubt that Pogo is multi-homed, but the problem is that a lot of
people are routed to the CL server through home.net which is
'horrendous' and one of Pogo's 'bone providers.
Now.. there really isn't anything DT can do about this and a lot of
people know this, but we're allowed to complain to DT knowing full well
that it's not our individual providers (in many cases) that are the
problem. It just rubs some people the wrong way when we're told flat out
that _our_ ISPs suck when in fact they don't.. some might, but a lot of
people that play this game are very technically savvy and go with their
least busy and best 'boned local providers. I just moved recently and
honestly (sad as this is) I went with the ISP that provided the least
latency to the CL server... hehe.
So when someone (like me for instance) gets sub 60ms pings on all hops
to the CL server until home.net where they can jump to over 700ms, at
least, that's frustrating because I _know_ it's not my provider. San
Fran/Palo Alto ain't exactly the backwoods of the 'net though... of
course the routers there are going to be jammed a lot. Unless DT moved
their server to an empty fiber line in Wyoming or something... well..
traffic jams are going to be the norm.
Gah, it's just frustrating is all.. we've nothing against DT when we
complain.. just need to vent to them because.. well.. it's their fault
dammit for picking Pogo and San Fransisco! ;-D
--
Bang a rang!
Babajaga
> With a latency of 4100 ms!!! Yes, sir, that is four (4) seconds.
> But... it was not enjoyable, though quite doable.
Just wait until you want to kill a rat with that lag;)
tovemi
----
Babajaga Vanimalda, the Fleet <http://www.red-quill.com/babajaga/>
The Film Vault <http://www.red-quill.com/vault/>
Fellowship of the Red Quill <http://www.red-quill.com/>
remove the SPERRE to reply
Helpful GM
<awes...@pacbell.net> wrote:
Moving to SF? Do you have a car? It's $4/hr to park, if you're a
resident, more if you're just visiting. Things get more expensive, from
there...
Mike
> In article <awessels-4C66B9...@news.supernews.com>, Maeght
> <awes...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <HelpfulGM-CEDCB...@news.apple.com>, Helpful GM
> > <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Well, that's not 100% true. You could move to San Francisco and plug
> > > right into the back of the server -- but that seems excessive for a
> > > game, even Clan Lord.
>
> > Don't give me that. How much would it cost?
> > - Maeght
>
> Moving to SF? Do you have a car? It's $4/hr to park, if you're a
> resident, more if you're just visiting. Things get more expensive, from
> there...
I saw a place in NYC charging $25 for a half hour! Insane.
I love NYC though, fun place.
Michael