Why do guys feel that it's not a sin...
JONAH
need to know:
Though it does not mention the act of masturbation, there are principles, and
direct obligations placed upon a believer.
It has been discussed that the sin of Onan was not masturbation, but a
deliberate act of disobedience against God.
But, you will find that there are scriptural references to sexual conduct.
At Col. 3:5 it states: "Deaden, therefore, your body members that are upon the
earth as respects fornication, uncleanness, sexual appetite, hurtful desire,
and covetousness, which is idolatry."
For, although God does not condemn sexual relations between a man and a woman,
this sexual appetite mentioned, are desires in excess of this arrangement.
Just as one can enjoy food, in excess of that joy turns to gluttony.
And with this in mind, you can understand that which God told you at 1 Thess.
4:4&5: "Each one of you should know how to get possession of his own vessel in
sanctification and honor, not in covetous sexual appetite such as also those
nations have which do not know God."
Though God has allowed for sexual relations within the bounds of marriage,
there are limits as to sexual desire.
That can be learned from Jesus the Christ in his warning to Christians at
Matt. 5:28: "I say to you, that everyone that keeps on looking at a woman so
as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his
heart."
So, this passion for sexual gratification always is a part of inordinate
sexual activity with another person.
Such imagined sexual relationships outside of the marriage arrangement is
tantamount to adultery.
For someone that has "practiced" such behavior, it becomes very, very hard to
stop, therefore it is better, not to start, than go through the turmoil of
stopping God dishonoring conduct.
Look! At your command is all the wisdom of the ages.
JUST CALL ME JONAH
*************************************
need to know wrote:
> For some reason there are a lot of men saying it is not a sin. My question
> to all of you out there, is to please help me find the scripture that tell
> us it is a sin to masturbate. Thank you in advance for your kind words
Dolf Boek
It has been discussed that the sin of Onan was not masturbation, but a
deliberate act of disobedience against God.
But, you will find that there are scriptural references to sexual conduct.
At Col. 3:5 it states: "Deaden, therefore, your body members that are upon
the earth as respects fornication, uncleanness, sexual appetite, hurtful
desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry."
DOLF BOEK RESPONDS:
Central to the issue is the philosophic notion of a Canaanite wife (Onan's
mother) who desired to surplant Hebraic wisdom/prophetic expectations
manifested in the course of life of these people. For example the 10
commandments were regarded as manifested from the 10 generations between
Noah and Abraham, and being realised in the birth of Isaac.
--
Dolf Boek
Winner: 1997 Rainbow Community Award - "Leadership by gay male"
Author: 'The Sodomite Prophecy' http://www.users.bigpond.com/dolfboek
Email: dolf...@bigpond.com
ICQ Pager: 377...@pager.mirabilis.com
What's my religion? God described it as, 'Seek ye my face...'
Unknown
You are con-fusing carnal matters with spirit matters. Matters of
scripture refer to spirit matters. They concern God who is Spirit.
Obedience to God is obedience to the spiritual laws and principles of
God. In and by this, man governs his life in the physical body.
Forget Levitical law and learn from the Living God, His Truth,
concerning His law and principle. Then you shall be able to judge and
call to be, what is righteous and what is unrighteous in the "eyes" of
God.
On Tue, 19 Oct 1999 22:04:09 GMT, JONAH <anew...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
>COUNTDOWN TO HAR-MAGEDON
>
>need to know:
>
>Though it does not mention the act of masturbation, there are principles, and
>direct obligations placed upon a believer.
>
>It has been discussed that the sin of Onan was not masturbation, but a
>deliberate act of disobedience against God.
>
>But, you will find that there are scriptural references to sexual conduct.
>
>At Col. 3:5 it states: "Deaden, therefore, your body members that are upon the
>earth as respects fornication, uncleanness, sexual appetite, hurtful desire,
>and covetousness, which is idolatry."
>
DW Suiter
JONAH
DW Suiter:
Of what do you refer, when you say: "Forget the Levitical Law."?
For was not the Law of the Levites, that which God gave to Israel?
Did not the Law foreshadow the the service of the Christ?
To bring condemnation and death to a finish?
To forget the Levitical Law is to forget a part of that which God gave to you.
Have you not read: "Do not let the sayings of my mouth depart from you."?
For one to say: "Forget the Levitical Law" is speaking out against the God, and
Author of the Law.
Let this not be in your case!
In the heart of the wise one comes understanding.
Look! At your command is all the wisdom of the ages.
JUST CALL ME JONAH
**********************************
Chris Morris
to be "sinful". The only true sin is that which causes harm to oneself
or others. Masturbation causes no harm to anyone except your narrow
unrealistic and ignorant sensabilties. Perhaps if you were to leave the
dark ages behind then you might advance as a person and as a
religion.Christianity can not possibly survive it ignores the world
around it that is changing. Their is a very ancient proverb that states:
" be not as the oak that when the stong wind blows stands firm and
breaks under the force, but be as the willow tthat bends and sways with
the comming storm. That which remains changeless shall soon be brought
asunder that which changes shall live for centuries." all relions and
people must grow evolve and change or die and wither away.
Bright Blessings to one and all
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
bam
BAM
Chris Morris <clm874N...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:0a0133f8...@usw-ex0101-001.remarq.com...
Peter Terry
God decides what constitutes sin, not you Greco-Roman religion.
PeterT
bam wrote in message ...
David Johnston
> >Masturbation causes no harm to anyone except your narrow
> >unrealistic and ignorant sensabilties.
>
> It causes harm to God.
No it doesn't.
"Narrow unrealistic and ignorant sensibilities"
> don't come into it. Jesus said "that whoever looks at a woman to lust for
> her has already committed adultery with her in his heart (Matt 5:28)." If
> you can figure out how someone can masturbate and not have this happen, then
Easily. Fantasize about your wife. (Yes it's possible). Fantasize about
an imaginary woman. Fantasize about a woman without being married.
Any more questions?
JONAH
Chris Morris:
There is an older proverbial say: "I am Jehovah, I have not changed."
That was written 12 centuries after the Law was given to Moses.
If, therefore, God did not change during that period, then on what basis do you
demand that a worshiper of that One should change?
Perhaps, you should stop and think about just where this world would end-up if
it was allowed to continue on such a course.
Yes, change is necessary, but not as you indicate, by ignoring all that is
righteous.
It is necessary to adjust your thinking to that of God, and not vice a versa.
It is your thinking that follows that of the god of this world Satan, which has
truly caused all the sickness in the world since its beginning.
But, look! that is all about to change.
Look! At your command is all the wisdom of the ages.
JUST CALL ME JONAH
***********************************
JONAH
bam:
Your are wrong!
It is not the Catholic Church that decides what is sin.
It is for God to decide what is sinful.
It is the obligation of the shepherds (clergy) to teach God's viewpoint to their
flocks.
This is the thing in which they have failed miserably to do.
For they have forgotten their role as servants to the body of the Christ.
Instead, they glorify themselves instead of giving glory to their Heavenly
Father.
Yes, they do give "lip service" to Him, but their hearts are filled with other
matters of a carnal nature, and not in imparting spiritual understanding.
For what more can they teach?
They are fleshly in their thinking abilities, and are not therefore, able to
discern things of the spirit.
For God is a Spirit, and all that wish to please Him must worship Him in spirit
and truth.
Look! At your command is all the wisdom of the ages.
JUST CALL ME JONAH
**************************************
bam wrote:
> The Catholic Church decides what is and is not a sin - not you, Morris.
>
> BAM
>
> Chris Morris <clm874N...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote in message
> news:0a0133f8...@usw-ex0101-001.remarq.com...
Jason911
Christian's mission to change the world and change others. This simply isn't
so. It's a Christian's job to live what he/she considers a pure lifestyle,
and to preach their beliefs to those *willling to listen*.
Now, many Christians overlook some very important facts: First of all,
it's not our job to cram our beliefs down the throats of those unwilling to
listen. If someone wants to know more about my beliefs, I'll
gladly---eagerly--- preach to them; but I'll never be caught trying to
change those who don't wish to BE changed. They, and ONLY they are
responsible for their lifestyle. We can't try to assume responsibility for
changing them---it'll only antogonize them (and rightfully so) and only
prove frustrating to us.
On the same token, why should you non-Christians feel its your duty to
"convert" us over to what we consider sin? Why should you concern yourselves
with our notion of sexual purity? If we feel that sex outside of the
marriage is wrong, isn't it harmless enough for us to believe that? Why
should you feel threatened by our beliefs? It's been a thousand years since
the crusades... you can stop feeling threatened by us.
As for "changing" our beliefs to adapt to today's world... you are
obviously very ignorant of our beliefs. The very problem with todays world
is that TOO MANY people are willing to compromise their beliefs simply to
fit in with those around them... and I'm not just referring to Christians.
Only by standing strong for our beliefs, despite the ever-changing world
around us, can we hope to maintain the traditions which made this country
strong. Traditions such as family values.
You see what "changes" have brought us: a 50% divorce rate, and
children shooting children en masse.
I have a saying also:
If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.
Jason911
JONAH <anew...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:380FA33B...@earthlink.net...
Chris Morris
speak for the One. Of course you idea of deity does vary greatly from
my own since I come from a faith that has evolved over the milena
beyond number and you are part of that which was created by man for man.
Chris Morris
the universe and it was alright to tourture and burn people. The Church
was worng then and nothing has changed since. Lies and ignorance do not
change no matter how often they are told. A group that does not evolve
and change with the times is condemed to die as is being seen with the
church's lost membership. Times have changed and the Church must do so
as well if it is to survive into the next millenum. If a group fails to
growand change then it will die and rot away. Bright Blessings
Damien Harrison
Chris Morris wrote in message
<0a0133f8...@usw-ex0101-001.remarq.com>...
>Why is it that whatever is sexual you of the Christian religon consider
>to be "sinful".
That's not true. Plenty of "it" going on in Song of Songs. But it was
within marriage.
>The only true sin is that which causes harm to oneself
>or others.
God disagrees with you (see Bible). I believe God is in a much better
position of judging right and wrong than you. So I'm going to believe His
word over yours. You cannot make up your own code of moral behaviour. Only
God can say what is right and wrong.
>Masturbation causes no harm to anyone except your narrow
>unrealistic and ignorant sensabilties.
It causes harm to God. "Narrow unrealistic and ignorant sensibilities"
don't come into it. Jesus said "that whoever looks at a woman to lust for
her has already committed adultery with her in his heart (Matt 5:28)." If
you can figure out how someone can masturbate and not have this happen, then
by all means let us know. This is the primary case the Bible puts towards
the masturbation argument. There are other issues, but it's a bit huge to
go into here. It is a thorny issue, granted. But let the Christian ask
themselves this - Did Jesus do it?
> Perhaps if you were to leave the
>dark ages behind then you might advance as a person and as a
>religion.
Advance as a religion. That's pretty funny. What's wrong with the dark
ages anyway? Listen, God's Word doesn't change. What he said in the
beginning would not change. Jesus died for our sins because God wouldn't
break His word to Moses about the sacrificial system. Now that's
faithfulness. If he wouldn't change the rules to save His son from the
cross, then He's not going to for your ideology either. The Church will
change it's position when God does, and God won't.
>Christianity can not possibly survive if it ignores the world
>around it that is changing.
Christians are apart from the world and its evil ways. It will continue to
survive. Another one of God's promises.
> There is a very ancient proverb that states:
>
>" be not as the oak that when the stong wind blows stands firm and
>breaks under the force, but be as the willow tthat bends and sways with
>the comming storm. That which remains changeless shall soon be brought
>asunder that which changes shall live for centuries."
I prefer God's Word to Eastern philosophy. Buddhists don't believe in any
God, did you know that?
>all religions and
>people must grow evolve and change or die and wither away.
God says that the gates of hell will never prevail against His Church. It
will never die or wither away. All other religions will die out. I'm going
to believe the creator of the universe and everything in it rather than a
man-made philosophy if it's all the same to you.
Harro.
STEVEN BOTTS
> Chris Morris wrote in message
> <0a0133f8...@usw-ex0101-001.remarq.com>...
> >Why is it that whatever is sexual you of the Christian religon consider
> >to be "sinful".
>
> That's not true. Plenty of "it" going on in Song of Songs. But it was
> within marriage.
to marriage.
God disagrees with you (see Bible). .
Excfuse me. I don't accept this premise and you have no proof of it. There
is no reason to believe that what God says and the several, often
self-contradictory things the Bible says on any subject are the same.
It causes harm to God.
Do you imagine that God winces uin pain as some kid plays with himself? Do
you believe that God somehow becomes less every time someone masturbates?
But let the Christian ask> themselves this - Did Jesus do it?
On the other hand, maybe you'd better not.
What's wrong with the dark ages anyway?
Not much, just enforced ignorance thanks to a church with a great deal of
political power. This included church taxes, which helped keep most people
in grinding poverty, the death penalty for heresy, the Crusades, the Holy
Inquisition, and lots of other fun things you would probably enjoy a lot,
that is asuming you were one of the priveliged few.
> There is a very ancient proverb that states:
> >
> >" be not as the oak that when the stong wind blows stands firm and
> >breaks under the force, but be as the willow tthat bends and sways with
> >the comming storm. That which remains changeless shall soon be brought
> >asunder that which changes shall live for centuries."
>
I prefer God's Word to Eastern philosophy.
Whose word? So this "God', this infinite being, this source of ultimate
reality, came to the Middle East a few thousand years ago and has chosen not
to communicate in any way with the other people of the Earth.
No thanks . I'm not an atheist by any means, but it's easier and more
benificial to believe in the Easter Bunny and the tooth fairy than in yuour
version of God. believe
Eric Delage
as any good parent is, I think you are more likely to find God
concerned about how we treat each other rather than whether we engage
in sexual acts (alone, in pairs, or in groups)
In article <s0u06a...@corp.supernews.com>, bam <b...@digital.net>
wrote:
> The Catholic Church decides what is and is not a sin - not you, Morris.
>
> BAM
>
> Chris Morris <clm874N...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote in message
> news:0a0133f8...@usw-ex0101-001.remarq.com...
> > Why is it that whatever is sexual you of the Christian religon consider
> > to be "sinful". The only true sin is that which causes harm to oneself
> > or others. Masturbation causes no harm to anyone except your narrow
> > unrealistic and ignorant sensabilties. Perhaps if you were to leave the
> > dark ages behind then you might advance as a person and as a
> > religion.Christianity can not possibly survive it ignores the world
> > around it that is changing. Their is a very ancient proverb that states:
> >
> > " be not as the oak that when the stong wind blows stands firm and
> > breaks under the force, but be as the willow tthat bends and sways with
> > the comming storm. That which remains changeless shall soon be brought
> > asunder that which changes shall live for centuries." all relions and
> > people must grow evolve and change or die and wither away.
> >
> >
> > Bright Blessings to one and all
> >
> >
Chris Morris
devine is not changless. THe Hebrews first saw El the first name of God
as a very violent and vengeful deity that reflected their lives. Thus
when we see the God of the 20th Century Christians he has mellowed more
than can be easily expressed. The Bible has changed and evolved as well
though often not for the betterment of man, perhaps in the next
millinum man will toss off the yoke of the past and expand to the world
that lies beyond. Accepting that we are all different and yet all the
same. All the religions in the world lead to the One we simply are
taking different paths to get there.
Eric Delage
<anew...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Yo JONAH,
Your absolutely right about God not changing, but here's the flaw in
your argument. We (humans) were absolutely clueless at the dawn of
creation, we were almost clueless when the scriptures were written,
we're still pretty clueless now. What makes you think change isn't
just us getting more up to speed with the REAL message of God. Most of
what we've come up with so far is rubbish to be discarded.... just like
every other misconception we've had. (The Earth is flat, every natural
force is a separate god to be worshipped, energy and matter aren't the
same thing, there are four elements {earth, air, water, and fire},
etc., etc., etc.)
Only the fool thinks he truly understands everything about God.
> COUNTDOWN TO HAR-MAGEDON
>
> Chris Morris:
>
> There is an older proverbial say: "I am Jehovah, I have not changed."
>
> That was written 12 centuries after the Law was given to Moses.
>
> If, therefore, God did not change during that period, then on what basis do
> you
> demand that a worshiper of that One should change?
>
> Perhaps, you should stop and think about just where this world would end-up if
> it was allowed to continue on such a course.
>
> Yes, change is necessary, but not as you indicate, by ignoring all that is
> righteous.
>
> It is necessary to adjust your thinking to that of God, and not vice a versa.
>
> It is your thinking that follows that of the god of this world Satan, which
> has
> truly caused all the sickness in the world since its beginning.
>
> But, look! that is all about to change.
>
> Look! At your command is all the wisdom of the ages.
>
> JUST CALL ME JONAH
> ***********************************
>
> Chris Morris wrote:
>
> > Why is it that whatever is sexual you of the Christian religon consider
> > to be "sinful". The only true sin is that which causes harm to oneself
> > or others. Masturbation causes no harm to anyone except your narrow
> > unrealistic and ignorant sensabilties. Perhaps if you were to leave the
> > dark ages behind then you might advance as a person and as a
> > religion.Christianity can not possibly survive it ignores the world
> > around it that is changing. Their is a very ancient proverb that states:
> >
> > " be not as the oak that when the stong wind blows stands firm and
> > breaks under the force, but be as the willow tthat bends and sways with
> > the comming storm. That which remains changeless shall soon be brought
> > asunder that which changes shall live for centuries." all relions and
> > people must grow evolve and change or die and wither away.
> >
> > Bright Blessings to one and all
> >
Eric Delage
> >The only true sin is that which causes harm to oneself
> >or others.
>
> position of judging right and wrong than you. So I'm going to believe His
> word over yours. You cannot make up your own code of moral behaviour. Only
> God can say what is right and wrong.
If you would listen to God in your heart, you would find the message to
be quite different than the bible in many areas. Don't confuse reading
what someone else took for God's word as being God's word. They are
not the same thing. Put you Bible down and use the mind God gave you
to make your own decisions.
>
> >Masturbation causes no harm to anyone except your narrow
> >unrealistic and ignorant sensabilties.
>
> It causes harm to God. "Narrow unrealistic and ignorant sensibilities"
> don't come into it.
I'm not here to advocate masturbation, but listen to yourself: It
causes harm to God? Are you out of your mind? NOTHING we can do,
NOTHING we can think, NOTHING we can say is anything less than created
by God. Just how exactly do you expect we harm God?
Jesus said "that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already
committed adultery with her in his heart (Matt 5:28)." If
> you can figure out how someone can masturbate and not have this happen, then
> by all means let us know. This is the primary case the Bible puts towards
> the masturbation argument. There are other issues, but it's a bit huge to
> go into here. It is a thorny issue, granted. But let the Christian ask
> themselves this - Did Jesus do it?
Whether Jesus spanked the monkey or not is irrelevant. Gratification
is one of those needs that rates up there right after food, sleep,
water, and air. It is neither trivial nor evil. Our goal should be to
get this need in line with the other priorities in our lives. When we
are closer in our loving relationships with God, family, friends,
spouses, the need for sex is still present, but it is moderated by the
other gratification we get from those relationships.
Jesus had exgtremely close and personal relationships with God, his
family, and his companions. I'm sure he still had a libido, but he
probably got most if not all of the gratification he needed from these
higher relationships. Either way, you should still do whats right for
who you want to be.
>
> > Perhaps if you were to leave the
> >dark ages behind then you might advance as a person and as a
> >religion.
>
> Advance as a religion. That's pretty funny. What's wrong with the dark
> ages anyway? Listen, God's Word doesn't change. What he said in the
> beginning would not change. Jesus died for our sins because God wouldn't
> break His word to Moses about the sacrificial system. Now that's
> faithfulness. If he wouldn't change the rules to save His son from the
> cross, then He's not going to for your ideology either. The Church will
> change it's position when God does, and God won't.
Yeah whatever, sheep. No wonder Jesus asked Peter to be the sheppard.
It was to keep the weak-minded, never had an original thought, folks in
some kind of mindless herd until he could come back and fix everything
that got messed up since he left. When are you going to realize that
God speaks to you directly and I'm not talking about some mixed-up
2,000 year old book.
>
> >Christianity can not possibly survive if it ignores the world
> >around it that is changing.
>
> Christians are apart from the world and its evil ways. It will continue to
> survive. Another one of God's promises.
Everyone is a part of this world. Good and evil are our definitions,
not God's. The sooner we start acting like one unit instead of
factions battling for superiority, the sooner we will be able to
achieve good ways.
>
> > There is a very ancient proverb that states:
> >
> >" be not as the oak that when the stong wind blows stands firm and
> >breaks under the force, but be as the willow tthat bends and sways with
> >the comming storm. That which remains changeless shall soon be brought
> >asunder that which changes shall live for centuries."
>
> I prefer God's Word to Eastern philosophy. Buddhists don't believe in any
> God, did you know that?
God doesn't believe how far off Christians have gotten from the real
message, did you know that?
>
> >all religions and
> >people must grow evolve and change or die and wither away.
>
>
> God says that the gates of hell will never prevail against His Church. It
> will never die or wither away. All other religions will die out.
God knows that there is only God's Church and no gates of Hell.
Prevailing is unavoidable.
I'm going
> to believe the creator of the universe and everything in it rather than a
> man-made philosophy if it's all the same to you.
Nope, you are already believing in man-made philosophy. Stop quoting
the party line and start listening for God's word. Start being one
with God.
>
> Harro.
David Johnston
>
As I recall, Jesus didn't even get married.
Eric Delage
<har...@netspace.net.au> wrote:
> Eric Delage wrote in message ...
> >In article <380F9F45...@earthlink.net>, JONAH
> ><anew...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >Yo JONAH,
> >
> >Your absolutely right about God not changing, but here's the flaw in
> >your argument. We (humans) were absolutely clueless at the dawn of
> >creation,
>
> Wrong. Adam walked with God daily.
Adam is a myth, a story like every other creations story, lots of
symbollism. I know its hard to accept that the kindergarten version is
not the absolute truth, but I'm sure you'll get over it. Although I'll
grant you that man's relationship with God has not always progressed.
I was speaking more about our understanding of the world/universe.
>
> > we were almost clueless when the scriptures were written,
>
>
> That's over a 1500 year period you're talking about here. What do you base
> that idea on?
Try over 1.5 million years. I base that idea on misconceptions that
man had at that time. The list I mentioned below were a few examples.
Do you not believe we (humans) had those misconceptions at that time
and scads of others in every area knowledge
>
> >we're still pretty clueless now.
>
> Speak for yourself. Sometimes people think the world thinks like them.
I was really speaking for me and you, but its safe to say that not even
the reports I hear from documentaries and news articles always seem to
include the message that each detail about the world/universe we
discover seems to open up a whole new layer of detail that wasn't
observable before. Examples abound in medicine, physics, material
science, etc. Consider the leap from cells to chromosomes to genes to
DNA as an example.
>
> >What makes you think change isn't
> >just us getting more up to speed with the REAL message of God. Most of
> >what we've come up with so far is rubbish to be discarded.... just like
> >every other misconception we've had. (The Earth is flat, every natural
> >force is a separate god to be worshipped, energy and matter aren't the
> >same thing, there are four elements {earth, air, water, and fire},
> >etc., etc., etc.)
>
>
> Opinion.
Of course its an opinion. So was your post.
Consider these ideas:
Does the message come from God -- yes. Does man listen to that message
and try to write it down -- yes. Does man make mistakes -- yes. Does
man have free will to make mistakes -- yes. Does God usurp man's free
will to make sure the message is always perfect -- no, it wouldn't be
free will if God did. (I'll grant that this is opinion)
Does our society change over time -- yes. When we relay messages to
someone that we've heard from someone else, especially when it's real
momentous stuff, do we bring our own interpretations into the message
-- yes, very often we do. When people read that message or listen to
it, do they bring any internal intrepretations into it -- yes very
often we do. Does the society we live in play a role in establishing
the interpretations we bring to communication -- yes. (This is not
opinion, this is fact. Businesses live or die based on their
understanding of these principles. Teachers, Managers, Parents, etc.
are good or bad depending on whether they understand these principles.)
>
> >Only the fool thinks he truly understands everything about God.
>
>
> You're right. But he has shown himself to be willing to tell us (see
> Bible).
It doesn't matter if God (not he, her, himself or herself, but GOD) is
willing to tell us. I agree that God is and does so all the time. I
disagree that it was a perfect conversation that ended about 1900 years
ago and has been transcribed perfectly ever since. If you really
believe in God, then you don't either (opinion)
Eric
>
> Harro.
JONAH
Harro:
You are quite right, there have been many changes.
A great many taking place within the 20th century.
But as man has changed, so has his concept of God changed in many instances.
For you can read of the life of that generation in the days of Noah.
For mankind had deviated so far from the worship of God, that that One had to
remove them from His earth.
They had so polluted the blood line of man, that it would eventually become
impossible for God to bring forth a "seed of the woman" that was not polluted
by the inferior blood of the interbreeding of man and angel.
Then, when God produced Israel, did they appreciate just what He had done in
their behalf?
No, but they "went following after other gods."
When He continued to allow them to return to Him, did they appreciate it?
No, for they made alliances with the pagan nations around them!
Did their hearts change when He sent His only begotten son to them?
For the one sent, himself said: "I have come to the lost sheep of the house of
Israel."
Did that change them for the better, by showing their gratitude?
No, for they had the direct representative, sent from the heavens to them,
murdered!
Has man changed today?
Yes, for today, there are religious viewpoints numbering in the thousands.
Can all these be right?
Positively, NO!
Have all the variations brought unity among mankind, or into a closer
relationship with their Creator?
You well know the answer.
Instead, what has the 20th century brought; many changes?
Yes, but how have the changes been viewed; for good or as something worse?
Yes, mankind invented and developed one marvel after another.
But what have been the results of those "marvels"?
Have they been used in a good way, or in a bad way?
When man developed gunpowder, what was the result?
Did he use it solely for the benefit of man?
No, but he used it to make greater means of killing his fellow.
When he built airplanes, what was almost its very first use?
As a weapon of war, to deliver the bombs made with the gunpowder.
When man developed nuclear energy; was it used solely to benefit man?
You have heard of Hiroshima, and Nagasaki?
Yes, Harro, there have been many changes, but when such changes are done
without the guidance and blessing, yes blessing of God, the changes will never
fulfill the schemes and deviousness of those that do not obey the commandment
of love, which was sent to man from above.
For until mankind acknowledges the eternal existence of its Heavenly Owner, and
brings their works into harmony with that One, the changes will be fruitless
and fraught with pain and suffering.
In the heart of the true son let the fear of God become your motivation to seek
Him with all one's heart, and with all one's soul.
Look! At your command is all the wisdom of the ages.
JUST CALL ME JONAH
****************************************
Damien Harrison wrote:
> Eric Delage wrote in message ...
> >In article <380F9F45...@earthlink.net>, JONAH
> ><anew...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >Yo JONAH,
> >
> >Your absolutely right about God not changing, but here's the flaw in
> >your argument. We (humans) were absolutely clueless at the dawn of
> >creation,
>
> Wrong. Adam walked with God daily.
>
> > we were almost clueless when the scriptures were written,
>
> That's over a 1500 year period you're talking about here. What do you base
> that idea on?
>
> >we're still pretty clueless now.
>
> Speak for yourself. Sometimes people think the world thinks like them.
>
> >What makes you think change isn't
> >just us getting more up to speed with the REAL message of God. Most of
> >what we've come up with so far is rubbish to be discarded.... just like
> >every other misconception we've had. (The Earth is flat, every natural
> >force is a separate god to be worshipped, energy and matter aren't the
> >same thing, there are four elements {earth, air, water, and fire},
> >etc., etc., etc.)
>
> Opinion.
>
> >Only the fool thinks he truly understands everything about God.
>
> You're right. But he has shown himself to be willing to tell us (see
> Bible).
>
> Harro.
Damien Harrison
Chris Morris wrote in message
>Ignorance of self and others is the greatest harm of all. No person may
>speak for the One. Of course you idea of deity does vary greatly from
>my own since I come from a faith that has evolved over the milena
>beyond number and you are part of that which was created by man for man.
God entered into history and chose the Jewish people as His people. This
fact was recorded (probably by Moses) in the Bible. Jesus came as the
messiah to save all. He chose to be a sacrifice for our sins thereby
fulfilling the sacrificial system handed down to Moses from God. Jesus was
so pure a further sacrifice is not needed. Jesus was a Jew. The Jewish
faith had been in operation for millenia as well. Even before Christ.
Ignorance of God is the greatest harm of all.
Harro.
Damien Harrison
Chris Morris wrote in message
>500 years ago the church decide the Earth was flat and the center of
>was worng then and nothing has changed since.
The Roman Catholic denomination thank-you. They are not "The Church". They
were wrong because they ignored the Bible and Jesus' teachings.
>Lies and ignorance do not
>change no matter how often they are told.
True. Jesus would agree.
>A group that does not evolve
>and change with the times is condemed to die as is being seen with the
>church's lost membership.
The RCC numbers may be dwindling but many are still being saved. More than
you know. God's word will never change because He is faithful. Even if His
church is not. God does not change or evolve. He is perfect and does not
need to change. A Christian endevours to follow His example (Jesus).
Change for a Christian means conforming to Jesus, not the changing whims of
society. What sort of change are you referring to?
>Times have changed and the Church must do so
>as well if it is to survive into the next millenum. If a group fails to
>growand change then it will die and rot away. Bright Blessings
Jesus promised that His bride (His true Church) will never pass away. It
has survived almost two thousand years already. Why do you think it will
die?
Harro.
Damien Harrison
STEVEN BOTTS wrote in message
<7upvl9$p70$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>...
>
>> Chris Morris wrote in message
>> >Why is it that whatever is sexual you of the Christian religon consider
>> >to be "sinful".
>>
>> within marriage.
>>Really? I've read "Song of Songs" many times and never found any reference
>to marriage.
I'm talking about what the Christian religion teaches. It teaches against
fornication and adultery. The Christian religion does not teach that sex is
sinful when it is within marriage. Therefore your above statement (the one
right at the top) is wrong.
> God disagrees with you (see Bible). .
>
>Excfuse me. I don't accept this premise and you have no proof of it. There
>is no reason to believe that what God says and the several, often
>self-contradictory things the Bible says on any subject are the same.
I believe there is but for the sake of brevity, I won't go into it now.
That deserves several thousand threads on its own.
> It causes harm to God.
>
>Do you imagine that God winces uin pain as some kid plays with himself? Do
>you believe that God somehow becomes less every time someone masturbates?
Thank you for ignoring the paragraph that went with the above statement.
God loves us. When we hurt ourselves by sinning, we hurt him.
> What's wrong with the dark ages anyway?
>
>Not much, just enforced ignorance thanks to a church with a great deal of
>political power. This included church taxes, which helped keep most people
>in grinding poverty, the death penalty for heresy, the Crusades, the Holy
>Inquisition, and lots of other fun things you would probably enjoy a lot,
>that is asuming you were one of the priveliged few.
I'm not a Roman Catholic. I believe all those things were wrong and
not-biblical. I thought we were talking about masturbation. Speaking
against masturbation hardly ranks up there with torture does it. Anytime a
Christian defends something that has been around for 2000 years, let alone
1000, they are accused of being old fashioned and chained to the dark ages.
They taught that Jesus died for people's sins in the dark ages as well "well
someone must have), does that mean we should change that too. Aren't you
even interested in why masturbation is considered to be a sin?
>> There is a very ancient proverb that states:
>> >
>> >" be not as the oak that when the stong wind blows stands firm and
>> >breaks under the force, but be as the willow tthat bends and sways with
>> >the comming storm. That which remains changeless shall soon be brought
>> >asunder that which changes shall live for centuries."
>>
> I prefer God's Word to Eastern philosophy.
>
>Whose word? So this "God', this infinite being, this source of ultimate
>reality, came to the Middle East a few thousand years ago and has chosen
not
>to communicate in any way with the other people of the Earth.
Excuse me, He came to earth when He created it and walked with Adam and Eve.
He has been here many times since. In fact you might say He lives in the
lives of many Christians. He communicates with me and many others quite
often. He still heals many people. There are as many miracles today for
almost every new Christian. Just dig a little and you will find it to be
so.
>No thanks . I'm not an atheist by any means, but it's easier and more
>benificial to believe in the Easter Bunny and the tooth fairy than in yuour
>version of God. believe
I'm sorry you feel that way. Because the life the Lord has given me is more
abundant and exciting than anything man could ever dream up.
Harro.
Damien Harrison
Chris Morris wrote in message
>The concept of God is forever changing with the changing of man. The
>devine is not changless. THe Hebrews first saw El the first name of God
>as a very violent and vengeful deity that reflected their lives. Thus
>when we see the God of the 20th Century Christians he has mellowed more
>than can be easily expressed.
David would disagree. The Jewish people know that the Lord is unbounding
love.
>The Bible has changed and evolved as well
>though often not for the betterment of man
Okay mister happy pants, how has the Bible changed?
>perhaps in the next
>millinum man will toss off the yoke of the past and expand to the world
>that lies beyond. Accepting that we are all different and yet all the
>same. All the religions in the world lead to the One we simply are
>taking different paths to get there.
Gee, never heard that one before. How shall I respond.
One of Christianity's most central teachings is that Jesus is the ONLY way
to the Father. Saying that "all leads to One" just shows your complete
ignorance for the teachings of every religion.
Harro.
Damien Harrison
Damien Harrison
Eric Delage wrote in message ...
>as any good parent is, I think you are more likely to find God
>concerned about how we treat each other rather than whether we engage
>in sexual acts (alone, in pairs, or in groups)
Wouldn't you consider sex to come under the heading of "How we treat each
other"?
Harro.
Vanilla Gorilla
>Adam is a myth, a story like every other creations story, lots of
>symbollism.
And, it disagrees with YOUR favorite myth, so it can't possibly have any shred
of truth to it. That's a good tactic, actually. I use that a lot. Arguing
becomes almost trivially easy, once you start with the premise that the other
person is automatically wrong. Welcome aboard. I've saved your address for the
day I eventually start my argument club. Not debate, mind you, just arguing. I
think you'll fit right in, maybe even get to be Treasurer.
Here's a little argument tip: Whenever you can, try to use your conclusion as
one of the supporting arguments FOR that conclusion. This is called "circular
logic", and it drives people absolutely crazy. Red Herrings and Strawmen are
both very useful, too, but you have to be very sneaky to get them in unnoticed.
This is just a general usenet tip: You had this cross-posted all to hell. I had
to do an author profile, just to make a reasonable guess as to which groups you
most likely read, so I could leave them in. Nine newsgroups is considered
excessive by almost everyone that matters. Some news servers won't even allow
cross-postings to more and five groups, so a lot of people wouldn't even see
your post. Just something to think about.
I'm just feeling particularly helpful, today.
--
V.G.
"Whimsy is my bidness, an' bidness is GOOD."
>rk: Trite Indeed!! (Quoted from RK, himself)
Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure. - ("I can't hear you. I have a banana in my ear.")
Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/
Ezekiel J. Krahlin
>>committed adultery with her in his heart (Matt 5:28)." If
>> you can figure out how someone can masturbate and not have this happen, then
>> by all means let us know.
Gay men...duh. Thus proving that being gay is closer to God than
hetero. Jesus also said "There is no marriage in heaven." Score
another point for gays.
>>This is the primary case the Bible puts towards
>> the masturbation argument....But let the Christian ask
>> themselves this - Did Jesus do it?
Did Jesus whack off? Great Jehovah's Jism! Not without his daddy
knowing about it!
--------------------------------------------------------------
Permission granted by author for anyone to distribute this
writing free of charge (including translation into any
language)...under condition that no profit is made therefrom,
and that it remain intact and complete, including title and
credit to the original author.
Ezekiel J. Krahlin
ezek...@my-deja.com http://surf.to/gaybible
--------------------------------------------------------------
JESUS ON THE OKRA WINFREE SHOW
(a parable for the 21st century)
Š 1997 by Ezekiel J. Krahlin
(Jehovah's Queer Witness)
Jesus Christ returns to planet earth and, of course, He
is invited to a LOT of talk shows...in order for us to
understand better, what this man called Jesus is really all
about. So it is on the Okra Winfree Show He is asked the
question:
"Jesus, what do YOU think was the most important advice
YOU ever received in Your lifetime as the Suffering Messiah?"
Jesus deliberates on this a few moments before answering:
"Well, Okra, I don't consider My incarnation as The Messiah
among the most relevant of My past-life experiences. Even so,
during that existence, I received so many excellent words of
wisdom, that I really CAN'T pick a favorite. But I'll tell
you this: I shall never forget the WORST piece of advice
ANYONE gave Me, in ANY of My multitudinous lives."
Okra Winfree leans forward in profound curiosity and
says: "Okay, Jesus, and what was that?"
Jesus finally answers: "Well, it was during my PRESENT
incarnation (as you now see Me), and it came from a
psychiatrist who once told Me: 'Jesus, You can't save the
world.'"
Okra parries: "THAT revelation must have been quite a
SHOCKeroonie to the ol' ego there, buddy!"
"Too-SHAY, Okra," retorts Jesus, lighting a Camel Light
100 to soothe His jangled nerves, "too-SHAY."
"May-uh KOOL-pah, may-uh KOOL-pah," Okra chuckles, "It's
ALWAYS fun to play devil's advocate with You, Jesus."
"Fine with Me, Okra," grins Our Savior, "as long as YOU
don't mind an occasional DIP in the Lake Of Fire."
"Well, another BURNING question I have..." (audience
guffaws before Okra continues) "...regards the HUMAN side of
Jesus Christ: Besides tobacco, do you have any OTHER
addictions?"
Jesus blushes, and lowers His head. "Yes. One other.
Boys. In that way, I'm like My Daddy."
Suddenly, a voice booms out of nowhere:
"REMEMBER THAT JOKE, SON: I'D WALK A MILE FOR A CAMEL,
TWO FOR A SHEEP OR GOAT, AND THREE FOR A BOY? HA, HA!"
Okra Winfree raises her eyes to the ceiling and, slightly
disgruntled, challenges Our Holy Guest: "Can't you EVER get
Your Father to show up in person?"
Jesus shrugs His shoulders. "God knows I've been trying,
but He seems to take everything like one, big, fat joke. You
know, I can't even get HIM to see ME whenever I want!"
"Wait a minute," Okra grows serious, "You mean to tell me
You STILL can't be with Your Father?"
"Well, not quite," ponders The Son Of Man, "It's just
that He sees ME whenever He wants, but I don't get to see HIM
whenever I want. It's just not fair."
Okra drops a pensive arm from her chin and says, sadly,
"No, Jesus, that isn't fair at all."
"HEY JESUS, I GOT TWO FRONT-ROW TICKETS TO SEE 'JESUS
CHRIST SUPERSTAR' TONIGHT...WANNA GO?"
Our Man Of The Cross sighs and flips a rude finger to the
sky: "FUCK you, Dad, just FUCK you."
"OKAY, GUY, BE THAT WAY. I GOT PLENTY OF HOT CHERUBS WHO
ARE DYING FOR A DATE WITH BIG DICK!"
Okra, in raging fury, jumps onto her chair and waves an
angry fist at the ceiling: "God, don't You think You're going
a little too far? Think of Your Wonderful Son!"
"I ALWAYS THINK OF MY SON. LAST NIGHT WHEN I WAS HUMPING
LUCIFER, I THOUGHT OF MY SON: OH JESUS, OH JESUS, OH JESUS!"
"Don't talk to Him, Okra," grumbles Jesus, "just don't
talk to Him. It's the only way you'll get Him to leave us
alone." Hands shaking, Our Lord attempts to light another
cigarette, but drops the match book.
"HERE, JESUS, HAVE AN ARCHANGEL. I'M DONE WITH HIM FOR A
WHILE. MAYBE HE'LL GET YOU OFF THE RAGGIE."
Out of nowhere appears an incredibly gorgeous dude,
adorned in nothing more than a bulging gold lame' loin cloth
and these opalescent, feathery white wings stretching across
the entire breadth of the stage. He alights by Jesus, who
caresses the firm, smooth butt of the archangel, then grabs
His Own Ample Crotch and says:
"Okra, I hate to break this off, but as you can see, it's
meant to stay on and be fondled."
And with those words, the archangel's fat crown pops its
head above the loin cloth. (Camera zooms in for a yummy
closeup. Audience drools in raptured silence, as a milky
substance dribbles from the crown and down the angel's spear.
When the camera regretfully pulls back, this glorious angel
tosses His luxurious mane of silver hair, and laughs):
"MEET BIG DICK. HAW, HAW!"
Then He lifts Jesus up, cradles Him in His massive arms,
and looks straight into the camera:
"I LOVE MY SON MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE IN THE UNIVERSE.
LET'S GO, JESUS, YA GOT A DATE WITH ME, ALWAYS."
They vanish, leaving Okra Winfree behind, along with a
half-empty pack of Camel Light 100s lying on the empty chair.
And, of course, the audience.
---finis
Ezekiel J. Krahlin
<har...@netspace.net.au> wrote:
>Excuse me, He came to earth when He created it and walked with Adam and Eve.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Permission granted by author for anyone to distribute this
writing free of charge (including translation into any
language)...under condition that no profit is made therefrom,
and that it remain intact and complete, including title and
credit to the original author.
Ezekiel J. Krahlin
ezek...@my-deja.com http://surf.to/gaybible
--------------------------------------------------------------
THE ORIGINAL SIN: HETEROSEXUALITY
© 1998 by Ezekiel J. Krahlin
It was Adam and Eve who committed the original sin...says so
right there in The Old Testament, you know, "The Good Book",
"The Bible." GENESIS CHAPTER THREE. Adam and Eve were what? A
man and a woman, you know, as in "heterosexual." Original sin
wasn't created between two men or two women, you know, "Adam
and Steve" or "Madame and Eve."
Adam and Eve broke God's law: they "knew" each other, as in
"had intercourse", as symbolized by the eating of the apple in
the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They "knew" each
other: they "knew evil". How obvious, how simple. God had
other plans for human procreation...to create new beings from
our hearts and minds, just as God and the angels do. But when
this law was broken, he condemned heterosexuals to give birth
in an inferior way, just like animals...in blood, feces, and
pain.
Genesis 3:16
Unto the woman He said, I will greatly multiply
thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou
shalt bring forth children...
All other sins are mere spinoffs of the original sin: The sin
between a man and a woman, the sin of heterosexual conjugal
relations. It's there, right there in The Good Book...and no
one can erase or alter that fact as plain as the nose at the
end of your face.
No true homosexual woman or man would ever *dream* of
violating that most fundamental of God's law. We are
persecuted by the descendants of Adam and Eve: heterosexuals.
Straight, homophobic bible-thumping idiots who are *jealous*
that we Lesbians and Thracians will never have to answer to
God for that original, most heinous of all sins: for we are
FREE FROM ORIGINAL SIN! Hallelujah, my gay sisters and
brothers, hallelujah to us all!
---finis
Chris Morris
Nahsatan means one whos differing, IE a differtent point of view. Then
there is a favorite of the ignorant and foolish, Thou shall not suffer
a witch to live. This little gem was added by King James I during his
translation to make it easier to understand. The original text was to
do with poisioners an admonishment of murder and endorsment of capital
punishment. The book itself was further changed through the centuries
by those who were copying the text either via error or dilberitly it is
hard to say. None the less problems have slipped into the text as it
has been handed down to us today. The very ideas found in the text were
also changed as time went on and thusly must remain suspect to original
intent. Basicly to hinge ones whole belief on amn made and man altered
text is the greatest falacy of all. Oh, and you may please spare me the
whole "God inspired" load of crap. As I have stated before a lie will
remain a lie no matter how long and how often the lie is repeated. A
little more study and a little less ignornece and blind faith may be in
order. I invite you to discover the wonderful world of history and
leave the myths to someone else.
Chris Morris
Chris Morris
is a kernal of truth in all Myth that is true but to rely on them as
though tey are historical fact is the greatest fallacy of all.
John R.
don't think He stood looking over anybody's shoulder reminding them to "dot
the i." Rather their inspiration was the sum and total of the Christian
experience. Better known as the Holy Spirit.
John R.
sex. At least not sex alone. However, I'm going to research that slant on
my end
Right now I think the bible represented lust for power. Sometimes that's
transmitted in a sexual manner.
Peace,
John
David Johnston
>
> Interesting revisionist theory. I don't believe that the apple represented
> sex. At least not sex alone. However, I'm going to research that slant on
> my end
Ah, I love that one:
All religious creation stories are intended to answer big questions
like "where do we come from", "why is the world so screwed up" and
so on. What questions are being answered this time?
First of all, let's consider the situation. You have two healthy,
naked, physically mature people with plenty of time on their hands.
Then she is tempted by a snake. What is a snake shaped like?
The snake tempts her with fruit.
What kind of fruit? Not an apple surely. They are a fair sight south
of temperate climes and the apple is actually a European artistic
convention. Perhaps we should look for a more common tree in
Mesopotamia. Well, there were fig leaves around, so how about a fig?
Do you know what a fig looks like? It's fairly small, dark, juicy...
In school-yards across North America, a girl's virginity is known as her
"cherry". Ever wonder why?
OK, so Eve tries out the "fruit" and really enjoys it, so she offers it
to Adam and they really enjoy it together. But later, suddenly they
feel guilty and want to cover up, hiding body parts that look like a
snake and like fruit from each other.
An authority figure comes along and instantly realises from the way they
are acting that they have done nasty and informs them of the
consequences of their action. She has to bear children, he must work to
support them, they must leave the protected enclosure against the world
and fend for themselves... In short they have to _grow-up_, take
responsibility, become parents and adults rather than children and
eventually die to make room for those children.
Of course it doesn't represent sex alone. It also represents the
consequences of disobedience in general and the price that one pays
just for becoming aware and self-willed. Like any great literature,
it works on more than one level.
John R.
BTW I meant to say that the "apple" represented power, not the "bible."
That's another issue.
John
Marcy Moody
> Original Sin..."
> from M. Moody.
>
> GOD is very clear. Proverbs 17:15 , "HE THAT JUSTIFIETH THE WICKED,
> AND HE THAT CONDEMNETH THE JUST, EVEN THEY BOTH ARE ABOMINATION TO
> THE LORD."
> *Genesis 19:1-28, fate of Sodom.
> *Deuteronomy 23:18, God references homosexuals as "dogs".
> *Deuteronomy 29:23-29, the Lord's great anger
> *Jeremiah 49:18,sins of Sodom and Gomorrah with two other cities which
> were destroyed
> with fire and brimstone because of the abominations within the
cities.
> *Jeremish 50:40, repeats.
> *Lamentations 4:6
> *Amos 4:11
> *I Corinthians 5:9,
> *I Corinthians 6:9
> *2 Peter 2:6
> *JUDE:7 ( powerful scripture) the punishment given fallen angles for
> same sin
Mr. Krahlin, above you will find scripture that directly disputes
your interpretation of The Holy Bible, regarding homosexuality.
Throughout the Bible you will find little
else that angers God as much as this sinful
act. Your sexual preference is one thing, but I find it offensive
that you justify this by the
Holy Bible. As a matter of fact, you may be very close to that
unforgivable sin of blasphemy, although the Bible says, if this
is done in ignorance, it may be forgiven. I fall very short of being
a church going, dedicated Christian and feel very undeserving of God's
Love. I wish you would read the above scriptures,
pray about it, as you seem to be one that does read the Word
and love the Lord. I have not written this for the sake of disagreement
or argument, but rather out of awareness of what Jesus would have me do.
Ezekiel J. Krahlin <ezekiel...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:3812a0b4...@news.ifreedom.com...
> On Sun, 24 Oct 1999 01:08:22 +1000, "Damien Harrison"
> <har...@netspace.net.au> wrote:
>
> >Excuse me, He came to earth when He created it and walked with Adam and
Eve.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> Permission granted by author for anyone to distribute this
> writing free of charge (including translation into any
> language)...under condition that no profit is made therefrom,
> and that it remain intact and complete, including title and
> credit to the original author.
>
> Ezekiel J. Krahlin
> ezek...@my-deja.com http://surf.to/gaybible
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> THE ORIGINAL SIN: HETEROSEXUALITY
>
> Š 1998 by Ezekiel J. Krahlin
Damien Harrison
Eric Delage wrote in message ...
><har...@netspace.net.au> wrote:
>
>> ><anew...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >Yo JONAH,
>> >
>> >Your absolutely right about God not changing, but here's the flaw in
>> >your argument. We (humans) were absolutely clueless at the dawn of
>> >creation,
>>
>> Wrong. Adam walked with God daily.
>not the absolute truth, but I'm sure you'll get over it. Although I'll
>grant you that man's relationship with God has not always progressed.
>I was speaking more about our understanding of the world/universe.
Jesus quoted from Genesis more than any other book of the OT. Even if it is
symbolism, the author clearly shows that man walked with God from the dawn
of creation.
>> > we were almost clueless when the scriptures were written,
>>
>>
>> That's over a 1500 year period you're talking about here. What do you
base
>> that idea on?
>Try over 1.5 million years.
Huh?! Bible was written over a period of a little over 1500 years.
>I base that idea on misconceptions that
>man had at that time. The list I mentioned below were a few examples.
>Do you not believe we (humans) had those misconceptions at that time
>and scads of others in every area knowledge
What misconceptions are you referring to?
>> >we're still pretty clueless now.
>>
>> Speak for yourself. Sometimes people think the world thinks like them.
>
>I was really speaking for me and you, but its safe to say that not even
>the reports I hear from documentaries and news articles always seem to
>include the message that each detail about the world/universe we
>discover seems to open up a whole new layer of detail that wasn't
>observable before. Examples abound in medicine, physics, material
>science, etc. Consider the leap from cells to chromosomes to genes to
>DNA as an example.
Okay.
>> >What makes you think change isn't
>> >just us getting more up to speed with the REAL message of God.
Because Jesus said, "It is finished". And it is. Unfortunately there's not
a lot of grey area to play with here. Either Jesus was the real message, or
He was not even close.
>Most of
>> >what we've come up with so far is rubbish to be discarded.... just like
>> >every other misconception we've had. (The Earth is flat, every natural
>> >force is a separate god to be worshipped, energy and matter aren't the
>> >same thing, there are four elements {earth, air, water, and fire},
>> >etc., etc., etc.)
>>
>>
>> Opinion.
>
>Of course its an opinion. So was your post.
Yeah, but I'm not basing my idea of morality on it.
>Consider these ideas:
>Does the message come from God -- yes. Does man listen to that message
>and try to write it down -- yes. Does man make mistakes -- yes. Does
>man have free will to make mistakes -- yes. Does God usurp man's free
>will to make sure the message is always perfect -- no, it wouldn't be
>free will if God did. (I'll grant that this is opinion)
This does not necessarily mean that Jesus Christ isn't the Son of God and
everything that goes with that. But I have no problem with any of those
ideas. In fact, Scripture backs you up, as you would expect. Well, I would
expect.
>Does our society change over time -- yes. When we relay messages to
>someone that we've heard from someone else, especially when it's real
>momentous stuff, do we bring our own interpretations into the message
>-- yes, very often we do. When people read that message or listen to
>it, do they bring any internal intrepretations into it -- yes very
>often we do. Does the society we live in play a role in establishing
>the interpretations we bring to communication -- yes. (This is not
>opinion, this is fact. Businesses live or die based on their
>understanding of these principles. Teachers, Managers, Parents, etc.
>are good or bad depending on whether they understand these principles.)
Okay. Does this mean Jesus Christ isn't the Son of God?
>> >Only the fool thinks he truly understands everything about God.
>>
>>
>> You're right. But he has shown himself to be willing to tell us (see
>> Bible).
>
>It doesn't matter if God (not he, her, himself or herself, but GOD) is
>willing to tell us.
The Bible would tell us that it matters to God.
>I agree that God is and does so all the time. I
>disagree that it was a perfect conversation that ended about 1900 years
>ago and has been transcribed perfectly ever since. If you really
>believe in God, then you don't either (opinion)
I believe God speaks to us all the time. Of course. But I also believe
that the Bible contains the Word of God and that God is faithful to His
Word. Therefore, if a new teaching is contrary to it, then either God is
not faithful, or the new teaching is wrong.
Harro.
Damien Harrison
Chris Morris wrote in message
>My friend for the first 1500 years The Roman Catholics were the Church.
>
My friend, it is quite obvious that you don't even know what the word means.
There have been many in the Roman Catholic tradition who weren't part of The
Church.
Harro.
Damien Harrison
Chris Morris wrote in message
>You contiue to grasp on to Myths that have little basis in fact. Their
>is a kernal of truth in all Myth that is true but to rely on them as
>though tey are historical fact is the greatest fallacy of all.
>
Sweeping statements such as the above do not scare the believer any more
than the honest seeker. Examples please. Believers are not afraid of
specifics.
Harro.
Damien Harrison
David Johnston wrote in message <38135C...@telusplanet.net>...
He said snake, get it. Hahahaha....
Harro.
Damien Harrison
John R. wrote in message ...
Lofty thoughts guys. I won't ever dare suggest the apple may actually
represent an apple though. That might be stretching it a bit, eh.
Harro.
David Johnston
It would definitely be stretching it. How would an apple that was just
an apple give people knowledge of good and evil, cause the invention of
sexual taboos or taint all of humanity with sin?
David Johnston
>
> Chris Morris wrote in message
> >My friend for the first 1500 years The Roman Catholics were the Church.
> >
>
> My friend, it is quite obvious that you don't even know what the word means.
> There have been many in the Roman Catholic tradition who weren't part of The
> Church.
No, not that "The Church", the other "The Church".
Damien Harrison
David Johnston wrote in message <3815CF...@telusplanet.net>...
Because, the apple isn't important. It was the rebellion against God's will
that was. There was no death, suffering, sin, etc., before that first sin.
It caused the whole universe to be cursed. So if the apple represents
anything, it is Man's sin. Any other interpretaion doesn't fully
acknowledge the depths the human race has fallen.
Harro.
Damien Harrison
Huh?! You've lost me.
Harro.
David Johnston
>
> David Johnston wrote in message <3815CF...@telusplanet.net>...
> >Damien Harrison wrote:
> >>
> >> >Interesting.
> >> >
> >> >BTW I meant to say that the "apple" represented power, not the "bible."
> >> >That's another issue.
> >> >
> >> >John
> >> >
> >>
> >> Lofty thoughts guys. I won't ever dare suggest the apple may actually
> >> represent an apple though. That might be stretching it a bit, eh.
> >
> >It would definitely be stretching it. How would an apple that was just
> >an apple give people knowledge of good and evil, cause the invention of
> >sexual taboos or taint all of humanity with sin?
>
> Because, the apple isn't important. It was the rebellion against God's will
> that was. There was no death, suffering, sin, etc., before that first sin.
> It caused the whole universe to be cursed. So if the apple represents
> anything, it is Man's sin. Any other interpretaion doesn't fully
> acknowledge the depths the human race has fallen.
Precisely. Whatever the apple was, it wasn't "just an apple".
Although without "it" there would of course be no human race.
Damien Harrison
David Johnston wrote in message <381965...@telusplanet.net>...
As long as the apple isn't the focus. That's all I was getting at.
>Although without "it" there would of course be no human race.
Huh? What do you mean?
Harro.
David Johnston
We are told that without the first sin "death" would not have entered
the world. We are told that because of the first sin women would have
to start bearing children and men would have to work to support them.
In Genesis, Adam and Eve's sin starts the whole ball rolling. Without
death there can be no birth and vice versa. There would be no human
race without it.
Ezekiel J. Krahlin
>I believe that the message of the bible is what God wants us to hear.
Ah, but how do you know your interpetation of "God's word" is the
truth? After all, it is a human--therefore fallible--mind reading
these words from the Bible. This includes your mind as well. Did God
Himself tell you they are His words? Or did another human, such as a
preacher, priest, or pastor? Who told *them the Bible is God's word?
God, or other men who came before them?
You can't get around this: there is no proof that God said these
words, to you or to anyone else. Your excuse is you take it on
"faith". Well, then, the faith must be in other people, not in
God...for it is other people who claim the Bible is God's word.
Yet, even on "faith," we come to the same central issue: how do you
know *your interpretation (usually acquired by your local religious
leader's interpretation), is the true one? After all, different
Christain sects have different interpretations of any passages that
are in the Bible...and each sect insists that *its--and only
its--interpretation is God's true word.
> I don't think He stood looking over anybody's shoulder
> reminding them to "dot the i."
Again, you can only surmise. Who are you to say how God behaves?
> Rather their inspiration was the sum and total
> of the Christian experience.
Now *that's a terribly vacuous statement, speaking much but saying
little. *Which Christian experience do you mean? Southern Baptist?
Mormon? Catholic? 7th Day Adventist? Episcopalean? Dravidian? Coptic?
Greek Orthodox? Presbyterian? Shaker? Protestant? Gnostic? Lutheran?
Quaker? Holy Roller? Jehovah's Witness?
> Better known as the Holy Spirit.
That is merely ^your interpretation, not God's.
FYI, the Holy Spirit has guided my hand in the writing of this
message.
Q: How many heteros does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A: Don't know yet; they're still trying to breed enough
brains to meet the challenge.
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