Project : Stillsuit. (Details and cost estimates)
Bassie
It's finished, with some graphical support on my web site ;-( (not professional
but..... it's there)
Please note: much of this concept is created together with several
colleagues.
Here it is:
Building a stillsuit.
Basic Requirements:
A. Reclaiming water from:
1.- Sweat
2.- Urine
3.- Breath
4.- Feces ( and menstrual fluids)
B. A suit that fits well and in which one can move more or less freely.
C. Power generation system to run all of its functions.
A: Reclaiming water:
Reclaiming water from:
1.- Sweat:
The human body sweats to remove excess heat. In order to remove the
heat, the sweat vaporizes, thus extracting heat from the body. It is therefore
the watervapour that needs to be processed in the stillsuit. When the sweat
should be reclaimed the effect would be more sweating. Reclaiming water
from vapor is relatively easy. You just need a condenser. The way I figure
it the easiest way would be to make sure the vapor is channeled to a "mini
fridge" where the water is reclaimed and from there pumped to the catch
pockets after passing an active carbon filter to remove any smells :-)
. The heat from the vapor is transferred to another medium (like CFC's)
and removed from the suit.
The suit thus needs a layer of cloth which can absorb the released
sweat, but in direct contact with the body. next to that cloth we need
a second layer of a material which allows vapor to pass, but not water.
Next we need a spacing area where the vapor is transported to the cooling
device. Finally we need an impermeable layer preventing vapor to flow to
the surrounding air.
Schematically:
look at <http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1994/stillsuit1.htm>
The open spacing area needs to be constructed of hundreds of small channels
through which the air (with the water vapor) freely flows. This channeling
has a second advantage. Here are the BOOT-PUMPS. The air (cooled by the
mini fridge) must be pumped around the body. The best place to put those
air pumps, is in the boots, as cold air descends and needs to
be pumped up towards the head and other parts of the body. The overall
effect is that the suit has become a sort of climate controlled chamber
with the body inside.
The size of the mini fridge is dependent on the amount of vapor to be
processed. This will depend on the outside temperature and physical effort
of the person. A human can loose about 1 kg of water in sweat per hr doing
sports. This would be about 1200 liters of vapor per hr or 20 liters a
min. Therefore it will have to be rather large. My guess with some R&D
we could make one sized 1 L = 5x10x20 cm (2x4x8 inches) which could
fit on the hips (back-side) The external heat exchange plates could then
be larger and fit on the back of the upper legs. The rate of reclaiming
varies so the device should be adjustable or auto adjust itself based on
the vapor pressure (easily measurable) in the circulation.
The amount of sweat will however be less for the desert adjusted Freemen
of course. next to that the normal loss in liquid due to sweat (marching
Fremen) will be much less maybe 1 L a day! Nevertheless the unit should
be able to reclaim also under stress! so a need to over dimension it is
obvious
A schematic representation of the loops can be found at:
<http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1994/sweat-back.htm>
The amount of energy needed will be dealt with later.
Reclaiming water from:
2.- Urine.
The normal terran human secretes about 1.5 L urine a day containing
about 40 g/l dissolved solids or 96 % water.
As I mentioned before in a previous post the Fremen will have
an adjusted urine more concentrated so we will start our calculations on
reclaiming water with 800 ml of urine a day.
<http://www.physiol.arizona.edu/CELL/Instruct/94BWSWB-1/94BWSWB-1.html>
for volumes!
The first problem to tackle will be the collecting of the urine. The
best option for men will be (as previously posted by Hash) using some kind
of condom like device. This might seem unhygienic, but definitely isn't.
Remember urine is very sterile (unless you have a bladder infection) and
when the system is completely closed there is no drying out of residue
so no problems there.
For the women a device like a tampon with a hollow core would be feasible.
There will be a collection pocket at the hips (on the sides) from where
the urine will be pumped into reverse osmosis units located in a very flat
system on the back (about 1 cm = 0.4 inch- thick). Passing through these
units most of the water is removed (at about 40 bar (500 psi) pressure
resulting in a final stream of concentrated liquid (30% solids) which is
then send to the feces treatment unit. (see later on)
Details: <http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1994/urinunit.htm>
The amount of water regained here will be low (about 700 ml) and there
is no need to rush. An average reverse osmosis unit can produce 10-20 l/
m2/hr ! Down scaling it and miniaturizing it will lose some efficiency,
but give the fact that say 1 L needs to be processed per day the unit will
easily fit in a (flexible) plate on a persons back. Size: 30x40x1 cm =
12x16x0.4 inch To obtain the necessary pressure piston or positive pumps
would be needed.
Again energy will be dealt with later!
Reclaiming water from:
3.- Breath.
The loss of water due to breathing is clearly important and mentioned
in the "Trial of Siona" in GEoD, where she is reluctant to close her mouth
flaps. The amount of water lost there is substantial and to be safe in
the Dune desert a device reclaiming this water is essential.
First a rough calculation on the amount of water to reclaim from one's
breath.
On average we breathe about 10x a minute with about 3-4 liters of air
per breath. Calculations will be based on 4 L or 40 l/min or 2400 L/hr!
Outgoing air will contain about 4% water vapor, thus we loose 96 L water
vapor = 77 ml water (1 L water is equal to 1243 L water vapor) per hour
or 1.8 L a day. Under more difficult conditions this can increase 4-5 fold
resulting in loosing water at a rate of 300-400 ml/hr.
So far for the basics.
The mouth flaps would be something like an inverse divers mouthpiece,
air coming in from the environment and going out to a water reclamation
device. Again this would be some sort of mini fridge condensing the water
on low temperature plates. The mini fridge here however could be powered
by the air breathed out so no extra power source would be necessary. It
would be somewhat more difficult to breath out but the gain would be reclaiming
water. The advantage to couple the air flow with the cooling device is
that: the harder you breathe, the more you loose, the better it works,
the more you reclaim. The place to put this device would be on the back
as well low on the hips. Thus there would be two almost similar units next
to each other on the lower back.
Reclaiming water from:
4.- Feces ( and menstrual fluids)
These are treated similar because they are not vapor, nor clear liquids
(without solids).
Collection of these excrements: For the menstrual fluid the same sort
of device as for urine would be used. This will be less comfortable but
it won't be a daily problem. Next to that the need is not very high since
the amount of fluid is on average very low (up to 50 cc/day). For the feces
the Fremen would have to sit (like on a toilet) and adjust his suit somewhat.
Again it should be stressed the feces would be much drier than from the
average person due to being accustomed to desert life. The feces would
be like rabbit droppings and manually (through a tube - not touching) directed
towards catch pockets on the side of the leg(s).
Here the feces, concentrated urine (and for women the M. fluid) would
be stored in a container with a slow moving rotating knife. Dry air (separate
from the air circulation in the suit for sweat) will be passed through
further drying the material. The air will be diverted to a third cooling
unit also located on the side of the leg to reclaim the water from the
air again.
This water has to be cleaned from odors as well through carbon filters.
End of reclaiming water. (pheeuuw.....)
B:A suit that fits well and in which one can move more or less freely.
Well in the discussion above I already mentioned how and where some
devices will be placed. nevertheless here I will give a rough outline of
the whole stillsuit.
A picture can be found at my website again:
<http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1994/stillsuit-done.htm>
Comfort:
The layer in direct contact with the body will be cloth thus resulting
in a comfortable contact. The whole suit needs to be in one piece
in order for the air (collection of sweat vapor) to circulate. The entrance
would be in front using a air-tight zipper (like those used in wetsuits.
On average the suit would be about 1 cm (0.4 inch) thick so not really
uncomfortable.
External devices:
On the back:
Top: reverse osmosis unit (urine treatment)
Hips: Cooling devices for sweat treatment and breathed out air.
On the upper legs:
Front and back: heat excangers releasing heat from the cooling
units.
Sides: Catch pockets for more or less solid wastes combined
with water reclaiming units
On the front part: The catch pockets for all the reclaimed water.
In the boots:
Air circulation pumps to ensure efficient cold air circulation
all over the body.
Well that's about it.
As the critical reader will notice: most complex devices are place
on the lower part of the body. Remember, Fremen walking around in the desert
also carried a Fremkit to survive. I assime this would be a sort of backpack
containing whatever thet need.
C. Power generation system to run all of its functions.
Power... This was the most difficult part. It would be impossible to
carry, let's say a mini powerplant with you. So, how where ??
The answer came in a brain wave and I won't tell you for I am afraid
someone would file a patent on it!!!
Shoot me if you want....
Nooooo, I'm not that kind of a guy..
The energy needed to drive the pumps (because that's basically the only
need) can be created quite easily!
The whole suit contains cavities necessary for air to flow. Especially
those located in the legs, arms are subjected to movement. These channels
need to be separated fom one another. Our views are such.
Separate them with fibers made of:
outside: electrical coils,
inside: elastic connected permanent magnets.
As a result any movement of the body would cause the magnets to move
through the coils generating an electric current which can be either used
directly or stored in batteries!!
Nice huh.... ;-) Remember internet publishing is prior art!!!!!!!
The effect would be a small increase in resistance for every movement made but the gain is energy at that time when needed. The more you move the more water is lost (sweat and breathing) the more energy is made.
OK that's about it.
Cost:
(Note: I use R&D costs as they are used in Europe at US$ 100,000.-
/ manyear [my] I don't earn that much but that's what we cost .)
Creating the suit itself: (fabric, cloth, membrane and
channels)
Material : about US$ 50,000.-
Research : about 2.5 my
Mini Fridge 1 : Sweat/vapor
Material : about US$ 30,000.-
Research : about 2 my
Mini Reverse Osmosis unit
Material : about US$ 40,000.-
Research : about 1 .0 my
Air-Boot pumps :
Material : about US$ 25,000.-
Research: about 1 my
Mini Fridge 2 (Breath vapor)
Material : About US$ 25,000.-
Research: about 1 my
Feces treatment unit: (difficult on energy and volumes)
Material: about US$ 100,000.-
Research : about 3 my
Energy generation system!
Material: about US$ 200,000.-
Research: at least 5 my
In total :
Direct costs: US$ 470,000.-
R&D costs: 15.5 my = US$ 1,550,000.-
OK I'settle for US$ 2,000,000.--
Have fun with this one....... I had.....
---=== Bassie ===---
QuantumFoam
Taking orders? ;)
QF
Bassie
> Taking orders? ;)
>
> QF
Nope ;-)
---=== Bassie ===---
Gunnar Harboe
Wow! I'm impressed. You make it sound so easy... :-)
Bye!
Gunnar Harboe
g.ha...@ah.telia.no
___
"Ultimately, all things are known
because you want to believe you know."
Frank Herbert
Bassie <bas...@kabelfoon.nl> wrote in article
<3656F4D5...@kabelfoon.nl>...
<snip>
> Building a stillsuit.
<snip>
Bassie
> Dear Bassie:
>
> Wow! I'm impressed. You make it sound so easy... :-)
First of all thanks for the compliment ;-)
Easy ??? No not exactly...
At about half a million dollar a suit and three times that figure on
development costs it's definitely not easy.
BTW the difficult part was the required energy. It had to come from the
body but at a minimum of effort. I think we constructed a nice trick
there. We may even try to get a patent or claim it otherwise.
Imagine training suits equipped with such coils and LED's on the
outside. You would be a walking christmastree, but safe when jogging at
night or early in the morning !!!
OK that's it for now.. it's getting late here..
Bye....
---=== Bassie ===---
Samuel Sands
Bassie wrote:
> <snipped wonderful, creative stuff about making a stillsuit>
> In total :
> Direct costs: US$ 470,000.-
> R&D costs: 15.5 my = US$ 1,550,000.-
>
> OK I'settle for US$ 2,000,000.--
Can you ship by Christmas? Two. I enjoyed reading your ideas,
however, a lot of it was over my head. Wonderful speculation though. In
the book, apparently, the suits were fitted by size. Wouldn't it , in
reality, require a lot of medical testing and info about the
individual's metabolism, organ capacities, and a lot of technical data
about that person to have a really efficient stillsuit? Much in the same
way that Yueh supplied the Harkonnens with Paul & Jessica's weight and
metabolism, IIRC, to insure that the timed drug worked properly.
Anyway, thanks for the great post.
Sam Sands
Bassie
> Bassie wrote:
>
> > <snipped wonderful, creative stuff about making a stillsuit>
>
> > In total :
> > Direct costs: US$ 470,000.-
> > R&D costs: 15.5 my = US$ 1,550,000.-
> >
> > OK I'settle for US$ 2,000,000.--
>
> Can you ship by Christmas? Two.
As you yourself kept it in the posting, it'll take 15.5 manyears of R&D to
complete a suit! So no I can't put it under your Christmastree.
Why Two? are you afraid you won't fit in one ?? ;-)
> I enjoyed reading your ideas,
> however, a lot of it was over my head. Wonderful speculation though. In
> the book, apparently, the suits were fitted by size. Wouldn't it , in
> reality, require a lot of medical testing and info about the
> individual's metabolism, organ capacities, and a lot of technical data
> about that person to have a really efficient stillsuit?
No, that's what we tried to avoid. The basics of the suit depicted here
should be usable for a large group of individuals without adapting. Of
course the sizes would differ but the equipment stays basically the same.
> Much in the same
> way that Yueh supplied the Harkonnens with Paul & Jessica's weight and
> metabolism, IIRC, to insure that the timed drug worked properly.
That is a completely different topic.
>
>
> Anyway, thanks for the great post.
Thanks for the compliment. ;-)
>
>
> Sam Sands
>
---=== Bassie ===---
BTW were the graphs clear or should I try and improve them?
Samuel Sands
Bassie wrote:
> Samuel Sands wrote:
>
> > Bassie wrote:
> >
> > > <snipped wonderful, creative stuff about making a stillsuit>
> >
> > > In total :
> > > Direct costs: US$ 470,000.-
> > > R&D costs: 15.5 my = US$ 1,550,000.-
> > >
> > > OK I'settle for US$ 2,000,000.--
> >
> > Can you ship by Christmas? Two.
>
> As you yourself kept it in the posting, it'll take 15.5 manyears of R&D to
> complete a suit! So no I can't put it under your Christmastree.
> Why Two? are you afraid you won't fit in one ?? ;-)
Give me the "Beast Rabban" Special! :^) Two because, something that important,
you don't want to leave to chance.
>
>
> > I enjoyed reading your ideas,
> > however, a lot of it was over my head. Wonderful speculation though. In
> > the book, apparently, the suits were fitted by size. Wouldn't it , in
> > reality, require a lot of medical testing and info about the
> > individual's metabolism, organ capacities, and a lot of technical data
> > about that person to have a really efficient stillsuit?
>
> No, that's what we tried to avoid. The basics of the suit depicted here
> should be usable for a large group of individuals without adapting. Of
> course the sizes would differ but the equipment stays basically the same.
My size differs but my equipment is *not* the same. ;^) I see your point,
though.
>
>
> > Much in the same
> > way that Yueh supplied the Harkonnens with Paul & Jessica's weight and
> > metabolism, IIRC, to insure that the timed drug worked properly.
>
> That is a completely different topic.
Agreed.
>
>
> >
> >
> > Anyway, thanks for the great post.
>
> Thanks for the compliment. ;-)
>
> >
> >
> > Sam Sands
> >
>
> ---=== Bassie ===---
>
> BTW were the graphs clear or should I try and improve them?
Clear enough for me. In fact, I'm thinking of using "feces treatment unit" as
my cool internet name. :^)
Sam Sands
jeremy howard todd
>As you yourself kept it in the posting, it'll take 15.5 manyears of R&D to
>complete a suit! So no I can't put it under your Christmastree.
Sure you can...just get 188.7 people to work on it (=
-jht
--
Jeremy Todd Database Programmer _,/
jht...@uiuc.edu ITCS Systems Development <__ \_.---.
http://www.ag.uiuc.edu/~toddjh/ College of ACES, UIUC \_ / \
Zupfe Boy and Night Owl (And Kangaroo Aficianado) \)\ /\.\
========================================================= // \\
"M-O-O-N, that spells moon" - Tom Cullen ,/' `\_,
QuantumFoam
> Sure you can...just get 188.7 people to work on it (=
Mathematically, this fits, but in all honesty.. 189 (to hell with
decimals! hah!) people working on a single project is going to make it
take longer. It'd simply be too insane.
Quantum
Bassie
> Bassie <bas...@kabelfoon.nl> writes:
>
> >As you yourself kept it in the posting, it'll take 15.5 manyears of R&D to
> >complete a suit! So no I can't put it under your Christmastree.
>
> Sure you can...just get 188.7 people to work on it (=
>
> -jht
OK ok you're right.
But as I stated before, I don't anticipate on the making of a stillsuit!! ;-)
Hitch wouldn't agree for one (not necessary on earth) ;-)
Remember one suit would cost about US$ 500K for this amout of money you can
take enough water going into the desert to last you almost a year!!
I just wanted to show current technology is CAPABLE that's all no more no less.
Bye.. ;^)
---=== Bassie ===---
Bassie
> > Sure you can...just get 188.7 people to work on it (=
>
> Mathematically, this fits, but in all honesty.. 189 (to hell with
> decimals! hah!) people working on a single project is going to make it
> take longer. It'd simply be too insane.
>
> Quantum
OK you're right here as well. There is however a much more important
reason NOT to make a stillsuit.
The Fremen had tons and tons of water, but they refused to use it because
they wanted to change the whole planet.
That's what made the water from their body so precious.
Remember te scene when Jessica and Paul are taken by Stilgar's group and
see the basin where Jamis's water is added:
"No Fremen will use this water even if they would die!"
On earth this is ridiculous... :-)
That's why I don't anticipate on the actual creation, just the basic
lay-out of a stillsuit.
Bye!!!
---=== Bassie ===---
hawk
the desert. They wont have to worry about water. With the increasing
tensions in the middle east this type of device would have many practical
military applications. Not only that, but if you were to go into full
production of the suit the cost would obviously become much lower probably
only a couple thousand a suit. After all the R&D is paid for they would be
very cheap to make. Hell if you got one that worked, could be made cheaply,
and was not uncomfortable, a defense contract would be worth millions.
Think about it this way. In a desert operation you would have to send a
truck full of water with your troops wherever they go. At least i would
assume you would have to. Cuz if you dont your troops will die. Now you
dont need to. This is one less vehicle that has to be accounted for. One
less truck that needs to be refueled. You now become a faster moving unit.
Make it even more military like and add a layer of kevlar to it. Now you
have have a self sufficient armored soldier. They only thing he's going to
run out of is ammunition.
Bassie
I give you full liberty to try and sell my version of FH's stillsuit..
I doubt they will buy it though. Actions in desert environment are rare and in
earth deserts ( except for some rare parts) you can find some water.
Best of luck though... ;-)
---=== Bassie ===---
ylm...@worldnet.att.net
wait, is this saying that you already have one designed? if you're
serious, please e-mail me. we need to talk.
Stay Sharp,
Joe S.
Brent
need ammunition!!!
......
-Brent
Volkan Buyukgungor
hello, i posted a few remarks, but i never said hi or anything. it's just
my first newsgroup, so i seem not know the ways yet. then i felt realy
sorry when i saw people introducing themselves.
so this is me, and i want you to know that english is not my mother tongue
so forgive the errors.
_______________________
Brent suggests:
> And if you train the soldiers in the wierding way, then they wouldn't
> even need ammunition!!! ......
but then you also need to develop a shield, couse the enemy would shoot
you from hundred meters before you can do any weirding.
volkan
Samuel Sands
Volkan Buyukgungor wrote:
> hello, i posted a few remarks, but i never said hi or anything. it's just
> my first newsgroup, so i seem not know the ways yet. then i felt realy
> sorry when i saw people introducing themselves.
>
> so this is me, and i want you to know that english is not my mother tongue
> so forgive the errors.
Welcome Volkan. Hope you enjoy it here. Introductions are optional, IMHO.
Just jump right in.
Sam Sands
Octothorp J. 'Hash' Snerdley
Bassie <bas...@kabelfoon.nl> wrote:
>Hi gang,
>
>It's finished, with some graphical support on my web site ;-( (not
>professional but..... it's there)
>Please note: much of this concept is created together with several
>colleagues.
>Basic Requirements:
>
>A. Reclaiming water from:
> 1.- Sweat
> 2.- Urine
> 3.- Breath
> 4.- Feces ( and menstrual fluids)
>B. A suit that fits well and in which one can move more or less freely.
>C. Power generation system to run all of its functions.
I like it! Sorry, my response is so late, but I was too busy to mess with
USENET until now. Some people live here on afd (Sam, Hitch, etc), but
others don't have so much free time.
It looks like you covered all of the solid and liquid processing
that goes on in a stillsuit. I don't know if condensing the water vapor
will remove enough heat to keep from cooking the wearer. Most of the time,
the human body is not cooled by sweat evaporating, but rather conduction and
convection with ambient air. Heat moves from your body because your body is
cooler than the air. Sweating only occurs during unusual exertion
or high temperatures. BUT, if your condenser cools the air enough, that may
be enough to remove the heat.
There is also the problem of ambient temperature and its effect on heat
transfer. The DUNE appendix says the temperature on Dune is between 254 and
332 K (-19 and 59 C, -2 and 138 F). This huge temperature range would
require a vastly more complex suit then you've described. Stillsuits
(for use on Dune, not Earth) should be able to handle this temperature range.
For your stillsuit, the temperature range would be much smaller because
there is not so much temperature variation here. Deserts do have a big
difference between daytime and nighttime temperatures, though.
>The first problem to tackle will be the collecting of the urine. The
>best option for men will be (as previously posted by Hash) using some
>kind of condom like device.
Thanks for the reference, but that wasn't me.
>B:A suit that fits well and in which one can move more or less freely.
>
>On average the suit would be about 1 cm (0.4 inch) thick so not really
>uncomfortable.
I don't think 1 cm is thin enough to allow free movement. Remember Fremen
(or desert-deployed soldiers as someone suggested) would have to have
freedom enough to fight in the stillsuit.
Great work!
Hash
--
This message carefully hand-crafted for you reading pleasure.
o...@imperator.resnet.tamu.edu
Bassie
I won't go into details again on the suit.. Remember It also takes 15.5 manyear
on R&D!
Thanks for the compliments though.. ;-)
As I mentioned. It was fun discussing it at work and working all of it out.
---=== Bassie ===---
Hitch
Welcome. Do not be concerned with not having "english" as your cradle
language....we have an astonishing amount of non-native english speakers in
this group, and we all manage to get along just fine. Let us know if you
wish anyone to "correct" your usage of the english language...some of our
posters like that, and some don't. We prefer to defer to your preferences
(in other words, we like to do what you want!!! :-)
As the oldest "old-timer" here, (excepting Christian, who posts the FAQ, but
nothing else anymore), again, welcome.
Regards,
Hitch
Volkan Buyukgungor wrote in message ...
>
>hello, i posted a few remarks, but i never said hi or anything. it's just
>my first newsgroup, so i seem not know the ways yet. then i felt realy
>sorry when i saw people introducing themselves.
>
>so this is me, and i want you to know that english is not my mother tongue
>so forgive the errors.
>
Hitch
LOL!!! I hardly "live" on afd...it is the ONLY ng to which I post (with a
very occasional post to one other); I'm an insomniac. AFD gives me
something to do besides WORK in the middle of the night.
Regards,
Hitch
Octothorp J. 'Hash' Snerdley wrote in message
<741r9m$e...@imperator.resnet.tamu.edu>...
>In article <3656F4D5...@kabelfoon.nl>,
>Bassie <bas...@kabelfoon.nl> wrote:
>>Hi gang,
>>
>>It's finished, with some graphical support on my web site ;-( (not
>>professional but..... it's there)
>>Please note: much of this concept is created together with several
>>colleagues.
>
>>Basic Requirements:
>>
>>A. Reclaiming water from:
>> 1.- Sweat
>> 2.- Urine
>> 3.- Breath
>> 4.- Feces ( and menstrual fluids)
>>B. A suit that fits well and in which one can move more or less freely.
>>C. Power generation system to run all of its functions.
>
>I like it! Sorry, my response is so late, but I was too busy to mess with
>USENET until now. Some people live here on afd (Sam, Hitch, etc), but
>others don't have so much free time.
>
>It looks like you covered all of the solid and liquid processing
>that goes on in a stillsuit. I don't know if condensing the water vapor
>will remove enough heat to keep from cooking the wearer. Most of the time,
>the human body is not cooled by sweat evaporating, but rather conduction
and
>convection with ambient air. Heat moves from your body because your body
is
>cooler than the air. Sweating only occurs during unusual exertion
>or high temperatures. BUT, if your condenser cools the air enough, that
may
>be enough to remove the heat.
>
>There is also the problem of ambient temperature and its effect on heat
>transfer. The DUNE appendix says the temperature on Dune is between 254
and
>332 K (-19 and 59 C, -2 and 138 F). This huge temperature range would
>require a vastly more complex suit then you've described. Stillsuits
>(for use on Dune, not Earth) should be able to handle this temperature
range.
>For your stillsuit, the temperature range would be much smaller because
>there is not so much temperature variation here. Deserts do have a big
>difference between daytime and nighttime temperatures, though.
>
>>The first problem to tackle will be the collecting of the urine. The
>>best option for men will be (as previously posted by Hash) using some
>>kind of condom like device.
>
>Thanks for the reference, but that wasn't me.
>
>>B:A suit that fits well and in which one can move more or less freely.
>>
>>On average the suit would be about 1 cm (0.4 inch) thick so not really
>>uncomfortable.
>
Shai Hulud
>And if you train the soldiers in the wierding way, then they wouldn't even
>need ammunition!!!
>......
Fighting in the desert, wind is blowing. I guess they must have got sand in
their throats after a while?
--
"I am the serpent Shai whose years are infinite. I lie down dead.
I am born daily. I am the serpent Shai-Hulud, the dweller in the
uttermost parts of the earths. I lie down in death. I am born,
I become new, I renew my youth every day."
Octothorp J. 'Hash' Snerdley
Hitch <hi...@primenet.com> wrote:
>Dear Oc:
>
>LOL!!! I hardly "live" on afd...it is the ONLY ng to which I post (with a
>very occasional post to one other); I'm an insomniac. AFD gives me
>something to do besides WORK in the middle of the night.
Hitch,
Well, I read afd all the time, but I find that writing takes much more time.
My posts tend to come in large clumps with lots of time in between. You
(meaning Hitch) seem to post at least 10 messages a day. Sam is also always
around. There are many other regulars, but they don't seem to have the same
volume of posts. I'm going to start counting articles and who posts them.
I think Hitch and Sam together have at least 25%.
Samuel Sands
Octothorp J. 'Hash' Snerdley wrote:
> In article <743gfm$1j5$1...@nnrp02.primenet.com>,
> Hitch <hi...@primenet.com> wrote:
> >Dear Oc:
> >
> >LOL!!! I hardly "live" on afd...it is the ONLY ng to which I post (with a
> >very occasional post to one other); I'm an insomniac. AFD gives me
> >something to do besides WORK in the middle of the night.
>
> Hitch,
>
> Well, I read afd all the time, but I find that writing takes much more time.
> My posts tend to come in large clumps with lots of time in between. You
> (meaning Hitch) seem to post at least 10 messages a day. Sam is also always
> around. There are many other regulars, but they don't seem to have the same
> volume of posts. I'm going to start counting articles and who posts them.
> I think Hitch and Sam together have at least 25%.
I'm afraid I don't understand your point or your concern. Do you wish I had
less or that you had more, (time or posts)? :^)
Sam Sands
Samuel Sands
Samuel Sands wrote:
> Octothorp J. 'Hash' Snerdley wrote:
>
> > In article <743gfm$1j5$1...@nnrp02.primenet.com>,
> > Hitch <hi...@primenet.com> wrote:
> > >Dear Oc:
> > >
> > >LOL!!! I hardly "live" on afd...it is the ONLY ng to which I post (with a
> > >very occasional post to one other); I'm an insomniac. AFD gives me
> > >something to do besides WORK in the middle of the night.
> >
> > Hitch,
> >
> > Well, I read afd all the time, but I find that writing takes much more time.
> > My posts tend to come in large clumps with lots of time in between. You
> > (meaning Hitch) seem to post at least 10 messages a day. Sam is also always
> > around. There are many other regulars, but they don't seem to have the same
> > volume of posts. I'm going to start counting articles and who posts them.
> > I think Hitch and Sam together have at least 25%.
>
> I'm afraid I don't understand your point or your concern. Do you wish I had
> less or that you had more, (time or posts)? :^)
Some Hard Data...
Nov. 25th..........06 posts (Weds.)
Nov. 26th..........01 posts (Thurs.)
Nov. 27th..........03 posts (Fri.)
Nov. 28th..........05 posts (Sat.)
Nov. 29th..........05 posts (Sun.)
Nov. 30th..........03 posts (Mon.)
Dec. 01st...........06 posts (Tues.)
-----------------------------
Total Week.....29 posts
Daily Avg.......4.1 posts
Sam Sands (who was just curious)
Hitch
Before I forget, Michael, thank you for your spirited defense!!
However, Oc, your math is incorrect. If memory serves (Sam, do you still
have that post?), Sam had recently posted his 1,000th post to a.f.d., in the
space of 8 months. In roughly four years, I believe my "total" is about
2,400 or so. So, IF I were posting "ten posts a day," my total in four
years would be closer to 13,000 posts - not a couple of thousand. Let's
see; on average, 2,400 posts (I actually think it may even be 2,100...I
really can't remember, I just looked it up out of curiousity when Sam posted
his "anniversary") over four years would be: 1.65 posts per day, ON
AVERAGE. However, that isn't, generally, the way I work; when I'm up, and
haven't anything else interesting to do, I will post 10-20 posts,
(PERHAPS)...but that will be it for days, even weeks, depending upon how
interesting the responses are to me; I never post to game threads, and only
VERY rarely to movie threads. And the *only* time you'll see me post even
that many, all at one shot, is when I log on after I've been off a while,
and there are 2-300 some-odd new posts that I've not seen before. And,
while typing may take some time, *thought* does not....especially when 99%+
of the posts from the "NKOTB" (read: newbies) are topics that have been
discussed numerous times over the years, or when you've read the Chronicles
some thirty-odd times or so. Lastly, MANY of my posts are repeat answers to
the same old, same old questions that newbies ask, and can be answered very
briefly. While we now have (once again) a pretty good "core" group, that's
been around a while (Michael, John, Sam, Gunnar and me, mostly), for QUITE a
while I was the sole "Oldtimer," and for another while one of the few who
would even take the TIME to answer a newbie's question. To see them
blatantly ignored - simply because something had been previously discussed
by the then-OT's, distressed me, as I felt it inhibited discussion, and
failed to encourage new people to participate. If I had to make a $ bet, I
would wager that fully 30% of my posts over the last 2-3 years have been
answers to newbies - *especially* those that other folks did NOT answer. (I
wish to make it CLEAR that I am not talking about the persons mentioned
above, as the "current" OT's).
Of course, like both Sam and Michael, I'm not certain what point you are
attempting to make. And, even if I *did* "live" on a.f.d., what difference
would it make? If I left, would you find the discussions more stimulating,
or more interesting? Do you find them somehow deadened, or ruined, by my
presence? Really, I fail to see that my small enjoyment of a.f.d., and
something to do in the middle of the night when I can't sleep, has any
affect whatsoever - negatively - on anyone else. Gunnar and I may only
rarely agree...but I should not want him to leave, nor do I think he would
want me to do so. We enjoy stimulating discussion of minutiae and other
items, like overall theories, etc.; and, as I said, it is a small thing, is
it not?
Hitch
MMarston1 wrote in message <19981202193231...@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
>>Subject: Re: Project : Stillsuit. (Details and cost estimates)
>>From: o...@imperator.resnet.tamu.edu (Octothorp J. 'Hash' Snerdley)
>>Date: Wed, Dec 2, 1998 17:14 EST
>
>>Well, I read afd all the time, but I find that writing takes much more
time.
>>My posts tend to come in large clumps with lots of time in between. You
>>(meaning Hitch) seem to post at least 10 messages a day. Sam is also
always
>>around. There are many other regulars, but they don't seem to have the
same
>>volume of posts. I'm going to start counting articles and who posts them.
>>I think Hitch and Sam together have at least 25%.
>>
>>
>
>Why do you care about how much Hitch or Sam posts? Do their posts annoy
you?
>They post too much?
>
>They have contributed more, barring Sam's lapses into OT posts (though they
>make up for it in laugh value...occasionly :) ) to this ng than you have.
>
>At any rate if your trying to insult either of them, bugger off.
>
>Michael
MMarston1
Samuel Sands
Hitch wrote:
> Hi, Gang:
>
> Before I forget, Michael, thank you for your spirited defense!!
>
> However, Oc, your math is incorrect. If memory serves (Sam, do you still
> have that post?), Sam had recently posted his 1,000th post to a.f.d., in the
> space of 8 months.
Only at http://www.dejanews.com/ . I purged my files last week of all but
personal correspondence. But basically it was a celebration of my thousandth
post with a free drink of water (non-rationed) for everyone. :^)
Sam Sands
Who always responds when called on and frequently when not. :^)
<snip>
John Kenny
Hitch wrote in message <745a3b$dk0$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com>...
Ok, so I gave up on quoting all of Hitch.... rampant snipping occurs below.
>Of course, like both Sam and Michael, I'm not certain what point you are
>attempting to make. And, even if I *did* "live" on a.f.d., what difference
>would it make? If I left, would you find the discussions more stimulating,
>or more interesting? Do you find them somehow deadened, or ruined, by my
>presence? Really, I fail to see that my small enjoyment of a.f.d., and
>something to do in the middle of the night when I can't sleep, has any
>affect whatsoever - negatively - on anyone else. Gunnar and I may only
>rarely agree...but I should not want him to leave, nor do I think he would
>want me to do so. We enjoy stimulating discussion of minutiae and other
>items, like overall theories, etc.; and, as I said, it is a small thing, is
>it not?
Hitch,
No doubt you know my feelings; please keeping posting as your schedule
allows.
Just two small things. One, could you, perhaps, modify your writing style to
allow for more paragraphs? It's hell trying to find a convenient spot to
interrupt one of your longer messages. Second, could you try and weed out
your habit of double negatives in sentence structure?
I think I do protest too much!
Best regards,
John
The second best thing about space travel is that distances involved make war
very difficult, usually impractical, and almost always unnecessary. This is
probably a loss for most people, since war is our race's most popular
diversion, one which gives purpose and color to dull and stupid lives. But
it is a great boon to the intelligent man who fights only when he must --
never for sport.
- Robert Heinlein
Octothorp J. 'Hash' Snerdley
MMarston1 <mmar...@aol.com> wrote:
>Why do you care about how much Hitch or Sam posts? Do their posts annoy you?
>They post too much?
>
>They have contributed more, barring Sam's lapses into OT posts (though they
>make up for it in laugh value...occasionly :) ) to this ng than you have.
>
>At any rate if your trying to insult either of them, bugger off.
Well, I appear to have hit a nerve. The funny thing is that I meant no
offense. Before I get anymore flame from afd, let me set a few things
straight.
First, I enjoy Hitch's and Sam's posts. Hitch has much valuable insight
into the Chronicles, and he's always availible for discussions. Sam is
probably the most consistently funny poster here.
Second, I'm not concerned how much who contributes to afd, or how many
articles they post. The whole conversation started with me claiming that
Sam and Hitch lived here because of the large volume of postings. I'm not
in a race to see who can post the most, I just noticed that I read a lot of
posts from Hitch and Sam (and Gunnar, btw, although he seems to have slowed
down on posting). I said nothing to imply that their posts were bad in any
way.
The only thing I have against Hitch is that he began calling me 'Oc.'
The reason 'Hash' is in quotes is because its my nickname. (Actually, I
don't care. It's my pseudonym's nickname. I just didn't get it that Hitch
was talking to me when he first did it.) When I see Oc, I think awk, which
is either a short, pudgy bird, or a Unix utility. Hash is of course a #, or
a line on a football field. Call me what you want, just give me a hint
you're talking to me.
In short, post to your hearts content. If I don't agree, I will write back,
not restrict your posting.
John Kenny
Octothorp J. 'Hash' Snerdley wrote in message
<747fvk$p...@imperator.resnet.tamu.edu>...
>The only thing I have against Hitch is that he began calling me 'Oc.'
>The reason 'Hash' is in quotes is because its my nickname. (Actually, I
>don't care. It's my pseudonym's nickname. I just didn't get it that Hitch
>was talking to me when he first did it.) When I see Oc, I think awk, which
>is either a short, pudgy bird, or a Unix utility. Hash is of course a #,
or
>a line on a football field. Call me what you want, just give me a hint
>you're talking to me.
Hash,
I don't mean to offend you; but, with such a convoluted handle, how can you
be upset with Hitch, or anyone else, for addressing you wrong?
Oc is much easier than OJ'H'S. I think you protest about nothing. Of course
I mean that in a nice way.
Octothorp J. 'Hash' Snerdley
John Kenny <jke...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>Octothorp J. 'Hash' Snerdley wrote in message
><747fvk$p...@imperator.resnet.tamu.edu>...
>
>>The only thing I have against Hitch is that he began calling me 'Oc.'
>>The reason 'Hash' is in quotes is because its my nickname. (Actually, I
>>don't care. It's my pseudonym's nickname. I just didn't get it that Hitch
>>was talking to me when he first did it.) When I see Oc, I think awk, which
>>is either a short, pudgy bird, or a Unix utility. Hash is of course a #,
>or
>>a line on a football field. Call me what you want, just give me a hint
>>you're talking to me.
>
>
>Hash,
>
>I don't mean to offend you; but, with such a convoluted handle, how can you
>be upset with Hitch, or anyone else, for addressing you wrong?
>
>Oc is much easier than OJ'H'S. I think you protest about nothing. Of course
>I mean that in a nice way.
>
>Best regards,
>
>John
The whole octothorp=hash thing didn't go over well. I thought it was clever.
Oh well, like I said, call me what you want, just let me know who I am
today.
Octothorp J. '<space for rent>' Snerdley