lurking ...
adhd...@my-dejanews.com
by suspect id's ... my main concern is not that these types of
people/messages can be found on these boards (i've seen them elsewhere, too)
but that this person seems to have somehow obtained the address of one of the
ng users ...
Back on topic, both the odd and adhd groups have been VERY helpful, but there
are issues i find would probably be best addressed in ts group - especially
in re: some of the small motor problems my son is having. Ot at his school
says he is "right on track" with regard to handwriting, but he is 8, and
cannot do any cursive ... printing is VERY laborious. It's almost like he is
drawing the letters, instead of writing them ... does this make sense to
anyone?
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
KATHRYN A TAUBERT
>drawing the letters, instead of writing them ... does this make sense to
>anyone?
GLAD YOU ARE STILL WITH US. We were worried about you.
Yep, this makes perfect sense to me. I have moderately severe TS and my
handwriting, was, is, and always WILL be laborious.
The computer keyboard liberated me. As an adult, I can write any @##% way I
please, with OR without cursive. I choose nowadays the computer. For
virtually everything, except the shortest of items. And when I HAVE to write
more than a list or few lines, I get my husband to do it if he's around.
If your son's frustration is getting in the way of his performance and
learning and self esteem, consider a computer keyboard. Others here can give
you more detail, including possible help with occupational therapy.
KAT in CT
BB2
friendly, resident bad guy), it can be a very helpful place. I posted to you
about OT on your other thread: here is some info about handwriting from Leckman
and Cohen's brand new book, "Tourette's Syndrome -- Tics, Obsessions,
Compulsions," published just a few months ago -- to sum it up, although many
things have been rolled in under the label of TS (that the literature doesn't
necessarily support), one thing that clearly seems to be part of TS is
handwriting difficulties due to visuomotor integration difficulties.
p. 79
"Visually guided complex movements appear to be one area of specific deficit
among individuals with Tourette's. This chapter describes a component process
model of visuomotor integration and reviews the evidence for Tourette's syndrome
deficits in each of the component skills. Although symptoms in
obsessive-compulsive disorder are cognitive in nature, here too there seem to be
clear deficits in visuomotor integration. Evidence for other types of cognitive
impairment in obsessive-compulsive disorder has not been consistently presented
in the research literature to date. One area of functioning that has been
studied in some detail is executive functioning. This is a broad domain,
covering many different specific skills that are believed to be related through
a common neural substrate in the pre-frontal cortices and its connections with
subcortical nuclei. Although this area of functioning has captured the fancy of
many researchers in recent years, evidence is NOT currently consistent enough to
allow clear conclusions about shared executive disability in these disorders.
RATHER, the research literature to date is considerably more clear with regard
to visuomotor integration deficits in Tourette's syndrome and related
disorders."
p. 92
"...suggesting that the integration of visual inputs and organized motor output
is a specific area of weakness in individuals with Tourette's syndrome...In that
study, low scores on the VMI by children with Tourette's syndrome could not be
explained by their performance on a motor-free visual-perceptual test,
suggesting a primary difficulty with the integration of visuoperceptual and
motor functions, not visuoperceptual anayses."
p. 93
"...A unique contributor to the impairment in obsessive-compulsive disorder,
therefore, may be visuoperceptual processing difficulties, whereas for
Tourette's syndrome visuomotor integration appears paramount."
p. 101
"For example, 32% of the children with Tourette's syndrome scored at least 1 SD
below the mean on the VMI, and 78% scored below the mean. Thus, the entire
distribution of scores appears to be shifted slightly downward toward more
impaired performance on select neuropsychological measures. The shift is small
enough that the majority of children with Tourette's syndrome performed within
normal limits, broadly defined. However, there are practical implications for
these findings. Many children with Tourette's have great difficulty with
penmanship, and is LIKELY A DIRECT manifestation of visuomotor integration
difficulties. The consistency with which drawing difficulties have been
observed across all studies in the literature suggests that this domain of
functioning be routinely assessed for all referrals with Tourette's syndrome ...
"
p. 368
"There are various ways to accommodate a child with visual-spatial or
psychomotor-related difficulties. Generally, the focus should be on the quality
and content of a child's work rather than the quantity of written work
produced. Computers can be extremely beneficial for children who evidence
writing and/or spelling difficulties. Allowing a child to present a report on
tape or orally, or allowing a child to dictate ideas or conceptual solutions to
problems can provide alternative modes of expression. Sometimes a child may not
be able to write quickly enough to get important notes or assignments down on
paper. Having a teacher review assignments and a trusted classmate photocopy
notes may be very helpful. When significant writing weaknesses are present,
tests may be given without time restrictions, in a private room, or on a
computer. Further, if tests are on scanning sheets, some children with
visual-spatial difficulties may benefit from writing answers on a separate piece
of paper to avoid the visual confusion caused by using the grid."
Hope this helps -- Leckman and Cohen are among the top TS guys in the world, and
the book is an excellent summary of the current state of knowledge about TS.
BB2
MCartwrite
my daughter had beautiful handwriting till about 4th grade. now in 5th grade
she's gotten worse.
she's allowed to write in cursive or print, her choice because of the labor
involved.
btw, she holds her pencil with all 5 digits of her right hand in an awkward
cupped position. has anyone else ever seen this? it's very unusual looking and
teachers gave up trying to "correct" it.
mary
KATHRYN A TAUBERT
>cupped position. has anyone else ever seen this? it's very unusual looking
and
>teachers gave up trying to "correct" it.
>mary
Mary, I don't know if I'm any help or not, but my handwriting always was, as
I mentioned, difficult. I held the pen/pencil in a more or less "normal" way
(for a leftie), but the callous on the second digit of my left hand was so
pronounced after years of strangling the writing implement that my finger
looked deformed. (Since the advent of the keyboard, it has virtually
disappeared).
Although my difficulties with penmanship are suspected to be the result of
problems with visuomotor integration in people with TS, I have a simpler
explanation.
Ticcing with me is constant. The tension in my hand and forearm seems to
focus more intently as I'm trying to write. It's like isometrics, without
"letting go." I don't have a problem understand HOW to make the letters. I
have a problem DOING it, because the "tic energy" is focused in that one
activity. It becomes exhausting, even painful, and very frustrating. I can
visualize precisely how the letters should look. And, from time to time,
actually DO it that way. But it doesn't last. It's like running. Or any kind
of vigorous activity. You get to a point where you don't have anything left.
Focusing upon holding the implement "just right" to make the letters "just
so" is physically exhausting.
KAT in CT
BB2
in most local stores. It has three soft indentations on each side of the
triangle, with an indication of where to put your thumb if you're left-handed
and another for where to put it if you're right handed, designed to encourage
the correct pencil grip and make it more comfortable. It is Very soft and easy
on the fingers, which may tend to grip too hard. Here is the description of it
and the toll-free number for ordering it:
1-800-257-5376
D. The Pencil Grip
This soft rubber grip that measures 1 3/8" long and 1" wide promotes the correct
writing grip by providing a unique location for the thumb and the index and
middle fingers. Clearly visible letters indicate where the thumb should be
placed for either the right or left hand. A very comfortable grip.
TAS9301 $1.79
The teachers at my sons' school have since started ordering these in bulk for
many of the other students. **Caveat :** if this doesn't work for you, let it
go and let the child do whatever fits him or her best, with a quick transition
to computers hopefully. Struggling over handwriting isn't worth it. My son is
starting on Ultra-Key for learning keyboarding. It is the software package that
Microsoft/Toshiba recommended to us for their Learning with Laptops program.
Another thing that helped us is a slanted board for writing on, as it helps the
hand not have to fight so much against gravity as it moves across the page. We
first tried getting a large 3-ring binder and turning it with the large size
away from the sitting position to provide a slant. When my son reported that
this helped him, we invested in a table-top drafting board for the kitchen
counter. He is now asking for a real drafting desk for doing his work in his
own room. BB2
Vicki Hill
>Ot at his school says he is "right on track" with regard to handwriting, but he is 8, and
>cannot do any cursive ... printing is VERY laborious. It's almost like he is
>drawing the letters, instead of writing them ... does this make sense to
>anyone?
Yes, makes lots of sense. FWIW, one thing that did help my son (now
11) was that the special ed teachers re-taught handwriting to him when
he started 4th grade. They kept it simple - one letter, one worksheet
per day. This didn't get rid of the problem...but did significantly
improve the situation. If you think of part of the problem as possibly
being a developmental delay, then it makes sense that you might see
some improvement by teaching the skill at a slightly older age.
Many with TS find that learning the keyboard at an early age makes a
huge difference. For some reason, the keyboarding skill seems to come
easier to the child than the handwriting skill. Whatever works...most
of us, as adults, probably keyboard more than we handwrite every day
anyway.
Vicki H.
V
KATHRYN A TAUBERT
BB2 wrote in message <369CB9C8...@home.com>...
>We have successfully used a pencil grip which is NOT the typical one you
can buy
>in most local stores.
I had better luck with those big fat pencils, pens. No doubt. In my case,
however, the "tic strain" in the forearm was as difficult as the hand. It's
really hard to describe this, but it was/is like an isometric exercise,
where one 'tenses' the muscle, then lets go.
In my case, when writing, the "letting go" didn't occur. If it didn't, I
stop writing. Otherwise, the tics themselves would interfere with the
mechanical act of writing. Does that make sense?
I am, however, going to find one of those grips you cited. I still DO have
to write from time to time, and although it won't take care of the
aformentioned, it WILL help with the "hand" part of it. I've ordered in the
past, one of those hourglass shaped pens from a catalog that has a rubber
grip in the center. Helped somewhat.
But I lost it somewhere. And the arm/shoulder part remained the same.
Struggling over handwriting isn't worth it.
I really agree with this one. I can't tell you how liberating the keyboard
has been for me personally. The difficulty, however, is that handwriting now
is even HARDER than it was since I do so little of it anymore. And being
able to type much faster is also wonderful. Writing is SOOOOO slow.
Frustrating.
>
>Another thing that helped us is a slanted board for writing on, as it helps
the
>hand not have to fight so much against gravity as it moves across the page.
This makes a great deal of sense to me. I've always had significant neck and
shoulder tics, as well. And leaning over those @#$%^ miniscule RIGHT handed
arm chair desks in elementary school (still a difficult memory) with my left
handed problems to boot, I'm convinced one of the reasons I still have
orthopedic problems in my neck and back can be traced directly back to this
business (and the auto accident at 19 yrs.).
Leaning back a bit is helpful, more comfortable. In front of my computer,
leaning back slightly in a very comfortable office chair, with the keyboard
placed properly is akin to having gone from a bicycle to a Porsche, if you
get my drift here. And that "tic energy" doesn't create the same kind of
difficulty. I think I know why. Because my FINGERS ARE FLYING across the
keyboard: MOVING.
With a writing implement, that ISN"T the case. So, I can tic AND write. Tics
in my forearms, shoulders, back are modifiable enough to NOT interfere with
typing. And when I cease "flying," there isn't the same overwhelming need to
tic that writing with a pencil/pen causes, having had to try to STOP them
merely to hold a pen.
The key for me is MOVEMENT. As long as my hands/fingers can MOVE, the
problem is resolved. But place me in the pen/pencil straightjacket, and
things are radically different.
We
>first tried getting a large 3-ring binder and turning it with the large
size
>away from the sitting position to provide a slant.
This was another problem, being a leftie. Ring binders are made for RIGHT
HANDED PEOPLE. I could get the looseleaf ones and turn them upside down so
that I could write from left to right with my right hand, but would still
"run into" the rings. Taking things OUT of the notebook was the only way.
When my son reported that
>this helped him, we invested in a table-top drafting board for the kitchen
>counter. He is now asking for a real drafting desk for doing his work in
his
>own room. BB2
Another great idea. My neck relaxes thinking about it.
I sometimes wonder how the heck I got through school at all when I think of
these things. The academic part wasn't a problem especially (except my
"slowness" in math). But the MECHANICS were quite difficult. I recall in
college how messy my notes were. I had learned to write in a kind of pidgin
shorthand that only I could understand. Every day, after class, I would have
to go back to the dorm and REWRITE my notes, which I did laboriously.
Ironically, they ended up being so complete that people often wanted to
borrow them (with me translating..sigh...). Especially my biology notes: I'd
draw diagrams in colors to illustrate.
But the untold hours I had to spend on the mere mechanics of it all. And, in
my work life 'before' the keyboard, I had to do a great deal of writing. My
poor secretaries could never read my writing. Back and forth, back and
forth. They were so patient. Sometimes what they'd type was hilarious. (what
they THOUGHT I wrote.). And dictation wasn't comfortable for me. I'm a
visual person, and need to SEE the words.
There was one young woman who had the patience of Jobe. She finally figured
MOSt of my hyroglyphics out (including the shorthand, which included liberal
use of medical abbreviations that I'd learned working in hospitals..like I
said I had my own shorthand), and never once got cross with me.
She would have loved the fact that eventually, I didn't have to have anybody
transcribe for me anymore.
Bottom line: use whatever accommodations work for YOUR child.
And, like Blessed says, choose your hills to die on, and don't let this one
be it. It's not worth it.
KAT in CT
>
Tom Benedict
> Mary, I don't know if I'm any help or not, but my handwriting always was, as
> I mentioned, difficult. I held the pen/pencil in a more or less "normal" way
> (for a leftie), but the callous on the second digit of my left hand was so
> pronounced after years of strangling the writing implement that my finger
> looked deformed. (Since the advent of the keyboard, it has virtually
> disappeared).
YOWZA! That sounds really familiar! My callous is a lot better now,
and I can only really see it if I'm looking down the length of my
finger, but it used to look like some kind of growth.
The joint is still bent from the constant pressure. I doubt that'll
ever get better.
> Although my difficulties with penmanship are suspected to be the result of
> problems with visuomotor integration in people with TS, I have a simpler
> explanation.
>
> Ticcing with me is constant. The tension in my hand and forearm seems to
> focus more intently as I'm trying to write. It's like isometrics, without
> "letting go." I don't have a problem understand HOW to make the letters. I
> have a problem DOING it, because the "tic energy" is focused in that one
> activity. It becomes exhausting, even painful, and very frustrating. I can
> visualize precisely how the letters should look. And, from time to time,
> actually DO it that way. But it doesn't last. It's like running. Or any kind
> of vigorous activity. You get to a point where you don't have anything left.
>
> Focusing upon holding the implement "just right" to make the letters "just
> so" is physically exhausting.
That explanation makes sense to me! I find I wind up clenching harder
and harder. After even a few minutes, my hand is aching. (This made
three hour finals just loads of fun...) I can force myself to relax,
but it only lasts for a short while. I get wrapped up in what I'm
writing, and it's back to gripping the pencil hard enough to break it.
Tom
adhd...@my-dejanews.com
manages to squueze all five fingers onto the shaft of the pencil, just above
the point. He also as trouble manipulating eating utensils, and so prefers to
eat with his hands (anybody who reads the adhd board will remember my search
for advice on helping him improve in this area ...) He certainly can't cut
meat, and using a fork is an on-again, off-again proposition for him ...
In article <19990113005652...@ng-cd1.aol.com>,
mcart...@aol.com (MCartwrite) wrote:
> re: cursive writing.
> my daughter had beautiful handwriting till about 4th grade. now in 5th grade
> she's gotten worse.
> she's allowed to write in cursive or print, her choice because of the labor
> involved.
> btw, she holds her pencil with all 5 digits of her right hand in an awkward
> cupped position. has anyone else ever seen this? it's very unusual looking and
> teachers gave up trying to "correct" it.
> mary
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
KATHRYN A TAUBERT
>easier to the child than the handwriting skill. Whatever works...most
>of us, as adults, probably keyboard more than we handwrite every day
>anyway.
Vicki, in writing my comments on this matter earlier, it occurred to me that
the reason it's easier is because keyboarding involves greater freedom of
MOVEMENT than wielding, more or less, an implement.
Make sense to anybody else??
KAT in CT
KATHRYN A TAUBERT
>and harder. After even a few minutes, my hand is aching. (This made
>three hour finals just loads of fun...) I can force myself to relax,
>but it only lasts for a short while. I get wrapped up in what I'm
>writing, and it's back to gripping the pencil hard enough to break it.
>
>Tom
Tom, I couldn't have said it better. That is EXACTLY it. And one of the
reasons I could never use a mechanical pencil. The leads ALWAYS got broken
from the pressure. They were much less sturdy than a regular pencil, which
often suffered a similar fate, although not as frequently. And I've been
known to "bend" a fountain pen tip before.Ballpoints, however, were
indestructible, it seems.
KAT in CT
BlessedBy2
Here's a site with accommodations for dysgraphia. BB2
KATHRYN A TAUBERT
BlessedBy2 wrote in message
<19990113180919...@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
>http://www.ldonline.org/ld_indepth/writing/dysgraphia.html
>
>Here's a site with accommodations for dysgraphia.
I read this with interest. What I noticed about it especially began with the
following excerpt:
"One may labor with organizing the concepts and expressing them, learning a
lot from the 'ordeal.' The other will force words together, perhaps with
greater effort (perhaps less if the language and information has not been
processed), with none of the benefits either to developing writing skills or
organizing and expressing knowledge."
This paragraph, and other things in the body of information, did not cover
the specific mechanical difficulties some of "us kids" have with writing.
Things that I mentioned in an earlier article on this and another thread.
I was also a bit amused to note the recommendation later in the document
that "mechanical pencils" might be preferred. (recalling the fact that I
could never use these, 'cause I always broke the leads.)
My point is this: while some of the accomodations listed were appropos for
kids with TS and dysgraphia, they did not mention that which relates
specifically to the mechanical difficulty of writing that is apparent with
some of us. I, for example, never had a problem organizing my thoughts or
making sentences, grammar, syntax, etc. Or visualizing and briefly making
the letters in the proper shapes and sizes. My problem was, once again,
purely mechanical.
Is there any "data" anywhere that elucidates this MECHANICAL feature of
"dysgraphia" or handwriting problems in more detail of which anyone is
aware? Not having looked, I don't know. But it intrigues me that in this web
site there is no mention of it. Understandable, since there was no reference
to TS in it either, so I shouldn't be too surprised.
But it does raise an interesting issue: how many youngsters had a similar
problem as Tom B. and I: the mechanical piece of it, rather than the
cognitive piece. And how many of those kids cannot express themselves well
enough, yet, to explain that fact, and are therefore, perhaps, misdiagnosed
as having some sort of cognitive problem, when, indeed, the problem isn't
"cognitive" per se, but purely mechanical..
I'm sure there are "tests" to distinguish which is which?
Leslie, Roger, you all readin' this? Any thoughts, more info available?
Educate me.
KAT in CT
keysmom
BB2- thanks for the info from the book- It will is very helpful!
Lyn
BB2
MCartwrite
for her to try.
thanks.
mary
beglyfam
with writing and other fine motor skills. He still has trouble with eating
utensils, tying his shoes, handling coins and other small objects. He also
had two years of OT provided by the public school, which consisted of
writing drills and did very little to improve his handwriting. Thank God
for computers!
Although I do not have a TS dx, I also have a great deal of mechanical
trouble with handwriting, including a death grip on the pen. I had the huge
callous on my right middle finger, and the finger is still bent slightly to
the side. Pencils generate too much friction on the paper and are even
worse. My problem (and my son's) is not that I'm trying to control tics,
it's that I can't control the pencil. It may have to do with thinking much
faster than we write. If I write slowly enough to make it legible, I lose
most of the thoughts I wanted to write in the first place. Interestingly
enough, I can play the piano and guitar, type rapidly and accurately, and
do cross-stitch and hand-sewing. Of course, the instruments and typing
require mostly finger movements, and the sewing requires more whole arm
movement.
I'm wondering if more information on these mechanical difficulties might be
found in a search on Aspergers Syndrome, as fine motor skill problems can
be one of the characteristics. Just don't have time to look into it right
now, as school was cancelled due to the ice/snow storm W. Pennsylvania
received, and WWIII is breaking out upstairs between the boys.
Singer (praying for an early Spring)
KATHRYN A TAUBERT <KATA...@prodigy.net> wrote in article
<77joa6$59k0$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>...
BB2
because my guys aren't in that much trouble with handwriting and what we have
done so far has worked (including Vicki H's recommendation to re-visit
handwriting in the fourth grade), and I don't really know what to look for ...
maybe I shouldn't recommend this site anymore ... Here are the Iowa site's
accomodations for handwriting, maybe it's better? Isn't it interesting that my
older son, who I know understand has TS, has beautiful handwriting? He had some
motor tics in second grade, and only in late 7th grade did I come to realize he
had TS, and his handwriting has always been excellent ... while my younger son's
handwriting difficulties were apparent by kindergarten ... ??? BB2
http://www.vh.org/Patients/IHB/Psych/Tourette/Modifications.html#9
BB2
KATHRYN A TAUBERT wrote:
Wendy Faulkner
KATHRYN A TAUBERT <KATA...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
>But it does raise an interesting issue: how many youngsters had a similar
>problem as Tom B. and I: the mechanical piece of it, rather than the
>cognitive piece. And how many of those kids cannot express themselves well
>enough, yet, to explain that fact, and are therefore, perhaps, misdiagnosed
>as having some sort of cognitive problem, when, indeed, the problem isn't
>"cognitive" per se, but purely mechanical..
I did. I got straight A's in everything in elementary school except
handrwriting and conduct. I was so thrilled in 6th grade when I was
finally allowed to print again instead of writing illegible cursive. I
got big callouses on my hand as well.
Nowadays I can write neatly when I try, but since I can read my
illegible chicken-scratch just fine (I'm ready to be a doctor :), I
rarely bother.
W
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=- Wendy Faulkner =- Def: Skydiver - a person who
=- faul...@eco.utexas.edu =- plays chicken with the earth.
=- http://www.eco.utexas.edu/~faulkner =- Rule #1: The earth doesn't flinch.
BB2
> KATHRYN A TAUBERT wrote:
>
> > Is there any "data" anywhere that elucidates this MECHANICAL feature of
> > "dysgraphia" or handwriting problems in more detail of which anyone is
> > aware? Not having looked, I don't know. But it intrigues me that in this web
> > site there is no mention of it. Understandable, since there was no reference
> > to TS in it either, so I shouldn't be too surprised.
> >
> > But it does raise an interesting issue: how many youngsters had a similar
> > problem as Tom B. and I: the mechanical piece of it, rather than the
> > cognitive piece. And how many of those kids cannot express themselves well
> > enough, yet, to explain that fact, and are therefore, perhaps, misdiagnosed
> > as having some sort of cognitive problem, when, indeed, the problem isn't
> > "cognitive" per se, but purely mechanical..
> >
> > I'm sure there are "tests" to distinguish which is which?
> >
> > Leslie, Roger, you all readin' this? Any thoughts, more info available?
> > Educate me.
> >
> > KAT in CT
KAT, have a look at Chapter 5 in Leckman's book. I think the answer to your
question is, "yes, there are tests and info" but I don't speak the language well
enough yet to summarize it. They do get into these kinds of questions. They
separate the following components of VMI: Visual Perceptual Skill, Fine Motor
Coordination, Motor Inhibition, and Sustained Attention, and then carefully look at
which components are affecting VMI in TS and in OCD. The different tests they
discuss measure different parts of that process/model -- Purdue pegboard, Finger
tapping, Beery, Rey-Oesterrich, CCPT, etc. After reading this, some of the
neuropsych results on my son make more sense, but I haven't digested it well enough
to regurgitate it well !!!
Here is one part that perhaps Leslie can help us with (p. 90): "Thus, even though
both pegboard and drawing tasks share task demands, the greater sensitivity of
drawing tasks suggests that visuomotor integrative processes, not purer motor
processes, may be more fundamental to the disorder."
Also, (87), "The literature on fine motor coordination difficulties in Tourette's
syndrome is nearly as compelling as that of visuomotor integration."
P. 91 "The literature on potential visuoperceptual deficits in Tourette's syndrome
is less extensive, less coherent, and less persuasive, largely because the measures
employed have not been highly specific to this domain of functioning."
I **think** (if I understood this chapter correctly) that it fits my son and his
neuropsych tests perfectly. I **think** that they're reporting that there do seem
to be some perceptual difficulties associated with OCD, but not with TS. My son did
very well on the visual-perceptual parts on the tests, but then he showed reaction
time delays on the CCPT that the neuropsych said were *NOT* attentional-related --
that he did not show "clinical signs of ADHD." I never fully understood how he came
to his conclusions ... but this chapter helps ... he said that he had motor
difficulties on the CCPT that were not attentionally-related ?? IN other words,
according to the Yale model, he would have been saying that my son had a motor
inhibition problem but not sustained attention problem ...
Leslie, where are you ???? (Have you read Leckman yet?) BB2
BB2
all stay safe. We are loving the day off at home after my busy week last
week! My younger son has a friend who I continue to believe is somewhere on
the very very very mild, undiagnoseable end of the autism spectrum. He flaps
sometimes, has some incredible memory abilities, and at 10, he can't tie his
shoes or manipulate small objects, while my son with TS can do all of those
things ... handwriting is his only remaining problem. They are the same
family who recommended our current OT to us, as the OT did so much to help
their son (still can't tie his shoes, though.) The writing drills you got
from the school OT is what frustrates me -- there is SO much more they could
be/should be doing to address these issues !!! I tried to type up once all of
the things our OT did with my son, but I couldn't summarize them as I don't
speak the language well enough. They seem to do different exercises every
single week! I am going to ask my son's OT if she won't write something up
that would help us all. After all, she is an OT university professor ... BB2
beglyfam wrote:
> KATHRYN A TAUBERT <KATA...@prodigy.net> wrote in article
> <77joa6$59k0$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>...
KATHRYN A TAUBERT
>difficulties on the CCPT that were not attentionally-related ?? IN other
words,
>according to the Yale model, he would have been saying that my son had a
motor
>inhibition problem but not sustained attention problem ...
Yep. That makes sense to me: attention has never been my particular problem
(unless I"m very tired, bored, or working very hard to "manage" the
tics...or, all of the above....deadly...."-). In fact, a former colleague of
mine called me "Laser Beam" 'cause I was able to "hyperfocus" on my work to
the exclusion of all else, if I was REALLY interested. Drop a bomb off next
to my desk at that time and I MIGHT notice it: interesting, considering the
fact that I also have quite a startle response....interesting conflict....go
figure.....think it has to do with the "frequency" of the noise, perhaps????
Anyway, in my case the "dysgraphia" is purely mechanical. "Strangling" the
pen/pencil, as Singer said earlier (gad, it WAS Singer, wasn't it?).....is a
great example...trying to analyze it for my particular situation, it derives
from the need to focus on the act of writing to the exclusion of
ticcing.....and as Tom said, it's very tiring, eventually ya' just can't do
it anymore and the quality of penmanship deteriorates. I can't, of course,
speak for everyone else, but "fine motor" issues don't quite apply in my
case either, not entirely, anyway. At least, not that I'm aware of. I'm able
to manipulate things very well.
It's when the manipulating interferes with my ticcing that it becomes a
problem. I'm not sure that's precisely the same thing as "fine motor"
problems per se, suggesting some region of the brain that may be involved in
these "f.m." activities.
Guess I oughta' read Chapter 5, huh?
(grinning sheepishly......)
KAT in CT
KATHRYN A TAUBERT
>accomodations for handwriting, maybe it's better? >
Yep. Becky Ottinger....Exec. Dir. of the Joshua FDN and TSA chapter leader.
Her handwriting suggestions make VERY good sense to me.
KAT in CT
BlessedBy2
>(grinning sheepishly......)
>KAT in CT
>
Did 'ya think you were gonna get away with only readin' the last chapter <grin>
... BB2
KATHRYN A TAUBERT
>Did 'ya think you were gonna get away with only readin' the last chapter
<grin>
>... BB2
naw....the FIRST and last....
"-)))
KAT in CT
lpacker
>I decided to hang out and read a few more messages, ignoring the ones posted
>by suspect id's ... my main concern is not that these types of
>people/messages can be found on these boards (i've seen them elsewhere, too)
>but that this person seems to have somehow obtained the address of one of the
>ng users ...
I assume you're talking about me. Just so you all learn something
that might protect you:
If someone posts under their real name, there are online white pages,
and it is easy to find anyone's address, phone number, and the names
and numbers of their neighbors if they are listed in their regular
phone directory. So "Anonymous" looked me up and published the
information in an attempt to threaten/harass me... and yes, he
uploaded a map showing how to get to my house.... and then said he
was going to upload a satellite photo of my home.
It was a clear and obvious attempt to intimidate. I will not publicly
discuss what steps I have taken, but I assure you that NO ONE attempts
to threaten my family's well-being without me taking necessary steps.
But newbies really should set up an account that protects their real
name and identity whenever possible. I post under my real name
because I am known in the Tourette community for my advocacy work and
I think people need to know the source of their information when they
evaluate it. I feel badly that because I am here, he harasses this
newsgroup, but I will not let him drive me away. Au contraire, I'll
see the sonuvabitch in hell before I let him destroy this group.
Trust me on that.
I am genuinely glad to see you back here, adhd_mom.
>
>Back on topic, both the odd and adhd groups have been VERY helpful, but there
>are issues i find would probably be best addressed in ts group - especially
>in re: some of the small motor problems my son is having. Ot at his school
>says he is "right on track" with regard to handwriting, but he is 8, and
>cannot do any cursive ... printing is VERY laborious. It's almost like he is
>drawing the letters, instead of writing them ... does this make sense to
>anyone?
Yep. Has he had any neuropsychological evaluation? And if so, do
you happen to have the subtest scores on any IQ test? And did anyone
run a Beery-Buktenica or Bender Gestalt Visual-Motor Integration test
on him? When Fangbasher gets caught up, she might have some very good
suggestions for you.
Leslie
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
--
For information on Tourette Syndrome, see http://members.xoom.com/lpacker
For info on support services and resources on TS in the Long Island area,
see http://members.xoom.com/LITSA
Pat Wilson
BB2 wrote:
> Here are the Iowa site's
> accomodations for handwriting, maybe it's better? BB2
>
> http://www.vh.org/Patients/IHB/Psych/Tourette/Modifications.html#9
>
> BB2
>
Wow, this is a great site! Not only re handwriting, but the info on obsessions and
compulsions helped me understand my son so much better. Thanks, BB2
pwilson
Randall Bart
<KATA...@prodigy.net> illuminated alt.support.tourette thusly:
>I was also a bit amused to note the recommendation later in the document
>that "mechanical pencils" might be preferred. (recalling the fact that I
>could never use these, 'cause I always broke the leads.)
I think you're probably the oddball on this one. With a wood pencil, the
shape of the tip keeps changing. A technique which works well with a
sharp point won't necessarily work with as the point gets duller. Also,
as you sharpen the pencil it get shorter, which changes the balance. The
point of a mechanical pencil quickly wears into a shape that remains
pretty constant. If you have trouble with the "modern" click-click
mechanical pencil (the kind Pentel introduced about 1970), the old
fashioned screw type with a real fat lead are still available. If you
break the lead on one of those, you would break the point on a chisel.
In any case, a dysgraphic child should be allowed to try out a wide
variety of writing implements. The absolute *worst* writing implement I
ever used was those short, fat pencils they gave us in first thru third
grades. I will believe that some children find fat pencils easier to
grip, but it never applied to me. I'll bet there are lot's of kids who
would prefer a long, thin pencil.
--
R B |\ Randall Bart
a a |/ mailto:Bart...@usa.spam.net mailto:Bart...@att.spam.net
n r |\ 1-310-542-6013 Please reply without spam I Love You
d t ||\ Greatest Unisys A Series Programmer Available is Now Available
a |/ http://members.aol.com/PanicYr00/RBResume.html
l |\ The Year 2000 Bugs: http://members.aol.com/PanicYr00
l |/ MS^7=6/28/107 http://members.aol.com/PanicYr00/Sequence.html
Kacey
broke the leads. I also had a compulsion to click until the lead would
fall out. . .
Kacey
Randall Bart <Bart...@att.spam.net> wrote in article
<369e4675.2087699@netnews>...
Tom Benedict
Makes sense to me. A couple of other things come to mind, too:
You can be a really sloppy typist, and still come out with a beautiful
looking document. The backspace key is my friend. Here's the odd
part: I don't really use it that much! But put me at a typewriter,
and I find I need one CONSTANTLY. The added stress of "don't screw
up" makes it ten times worse.
Same thing with handwriting. At the conference, a bunch of us wrote
our chat names on our nametags so people from the MGH chat room could
identify each other. I just about couldn't write because I knew I
didn't want to screw up. So my writing was worse than normal. (I
wished and prayed for a laptop and printer!!)
The "rest state" for a keyboard is essentially hands-off. You CAN'T
apply any pressure, so you don't. (If you do, you wind up with
"adslk;gha;lsdhf" coming out all the time.) The same isn't true for a
pen or pencil. SOME pressure is necessary or you drop the writing
instrument. It's that "some" I can't get a handle on. What's "some?"
For me it's somewhere in-between "I dropped my pencil" and "I could do
the same with a 5-ton hydraulic press." Much easier to use a keyboard
where the answer is "take yer hands off the keys."
Along those same lines, I find I do better with a keyboard that has a
definite range of travel. One where at the bottom, the key just
STOPS. I've used keyboards that kinda squish down, but never quite
give you that satisfying >bang< at the bottom of a keystroke, and they
drive me NUTS. I find I type harder and harder on them until it's as
if I was back on that Underwood I learned to type on as a kid,
whacking the keys as hard as I can.
If only I could find a universal keyboard adapter, I'd haul around my
butt-ugly Keytronics keyboard with me, and be happy wherever I
type. ;)
Tom
Tom Benedict
Heh! I find I can use mechanical pencils (0.3mm is my favorite),
because all the pressure I apply is sideways into the pencil, not down
into the paper. I almost never break the lead on them.
BUT - My favorite mechanical pencil is a Koh-i-noor 0.3mm drafting
pencil with this nasty knurled grip. The pencil itself is great, but
after an hour of writing I have knurl imprints on several fingers, and
the ones on my writing bump can last for hours afterward.
Say, that reminds me. Has anyone seen those pens someone developed a
few years ago that slip over a fingertip? Supposed to make life just
grand and all that jazz? Can anyone actually write legibly with a
fingertip? I can on a bathroom mirror (I can draw smiley faces, too!)
But write a letter or class notes?
They never caught on. I see them occasionally in surplus catalogs. ;)
Tom
Tom Benedict
> But it does raise an interesting issue: how many youngsters had a similar
> problem as Tom B. and I: the mechanical piece of it, rather than the
> cognitive piece. And how many of those kids cannot express themselves well
> enough, yet, to explain that fact, and are therefore, perhaps, misdiagnosed
> as having some sort of cognitive problem, when, indeed, the problem isn't
> "cognitive" per se, but purely mechanical..
Almost (but not completely) off topic:
I'd be curious what the correlation between left-handedness and
mechanical dysgraphia is. If there's a high one, I'd be willing to
bet some of it is trained.
When I went to school, they'd just recently changed policy from
"'Repair' left-handers by forcing them to write with their right
hands" to "Further damage left-handers by forcing them to hold their
paper and pencil the way some underwater alien from the planet Ognoz
would."
I constantly had teachers rotating my paper 45 degrees, 90 degrees,
180 degrees, whatever, and forcing me to hold my pencil in these
oddball configurations that just killed my wrist.
No one EVER explained they were doing this so we wouldn't smear
graphite all over our papers as our hands dragged across what we'd
just written. Made sense years later, but NO ONE told me that at the
time.
Luckily I pretty much blew them off and turned in smeary, ugly looking
work. Which was probably a big contributor toward my consistantly
horrid handwriting grades. But hey, I also avoided being awarded a
certificate for being the first kid in elementary school to get
carpal-tunnel syndrome. ;)
Tom
P.S. Do teachers still do this to left-handers, or are they finally
just letting them write however works best?
FANGBASHER
suggestions for you.>>
Well, I haven't 'caught up' but am off work today--so am sneaking a look at
ast.
Regarding suggestions--will share some privately; regarding specific
activities, I would like to include one offered in the past. However, I do
have something to say--but, well for those who 'know' me, please excuse the
length of this and my going off on tangent here, again...if not, you can delete
;-)....
I recall that BlessedBy2 discussed talked about an O.T. given activity that
helped her son which involved working with a geoboard; his penmanship or
handwriting improved as a result. What this activity involved was placing
rubber bands over pegs to match given designs. I believe this activiity helps
strengthen muscles in the fingers as well as helps improve coordination.
Geoboards can be purchased at most stores that sell 'teaching supplies' as well
as through educational catalogues (i.e. Lakeshore).
Although, I do think it can be of great value to help a child improve skills in
this area, and I do believe that keyboarding skills are helpful for most, I
also have a somewhat different perspective on this area as well. My own
personal experience contributed to my feelings.
About 10 years ago I temporarily lost fine-motor skills as a result of a severe
multiple sclerosis attack. I was unable to fasten buttons. I had great
difficulty cutting with a knife, and I could barely write my name. It was one
of the most awful and strange experiences I have ever dealt with. My hands and
fingers were also numb. Although I was able to pick up finger food, I wound up
biting my fingers as I tried to eat it. I found my hand getting caught on
handles such as the refrigerator. I found myself becoming easily angered and
frustrated over the inability to perform normal, every-day tasks. Fortunately,
most--but not all--functioning ability in this area eventuall returned.
Childhood is a time for learning. There are critical stages for learning
different skills. Yet, all have varying levels of ability and are ready to
perform different tasks at different times or ages. The mechanics of writing
skills falls into this area.
We group children together in classrooms by age, assuming that all are ready to
learn the same materials at that given time. It was once assumed by many that
all learned best if materials were presented in a given, standardized format.
Thankfully, different learning styles have or are becoming more recognized and
allowed for. Yet, children are still expected to be able to perform given
developmental and physical tasks by a certain age level. If they don't--it is
assumed by some to be the fault of the system that is teaching it. The child
who doesn't perform up to standards generally has reduced feelings of self
worth, often becomes angry and frustrated--and may turn these feelings inward
(possible depression) or express them in less than acceptable ways (conduct
problems). This may in turn contribute to other problems such as social and
emotional related difficulties as well.
What is most important for children at this age is to gain knowledge,
understand how to use it as well as express it. There is more than one way to
do this. However, because of preconceived beliefs the purpose of educational
goals are often lost sight of.
If a child learns and understands concepts but has great difficulty putting his
or her ideas onto paper because of fine-motor related weakness, then an
alternate way of expression should be used. There are voice generated computer
programs--which allow one to speak into the computer which transcribes what is
said into written form. If this is not available--the child could speak into a
tape recorder or have an aide write down what is dictated.
I am not advocating that this technique be used at all times in place of
writing nor that that teaching of writing skills should be completely abandoned
for kids who have difficulty. However, if the intent of the given assignment
is to demonstrate comprehension of a given concept--then the manner in which
the child can best demonstrate their knowledge should be used.
I learned about voice activated computer programs several years ago while
working with an O.T. for my difficulties. I can't say the O.T. was
particularly helpful in my case, although it was good to learn about what
alternatives were available. I have been offered use of secretarial services
which I have resisted because I want to do my own work. I also feel that
typing has improved my coordination and helps maintain a certain level of
ability because of the loss of feeling which never returned. At the same
time--writing became more difficult because of the neurolgical changes. I
assume if I wrote daily--I might improve skills in this area as well, although
when I do write for extended periods I have experienced very painful muscle
cramps. However, what is the point. Typing is much faster, less painful, less
tiring overall, and now requires so much less effort. I do find myself feeling
angry and frustrated if I have to complete a task that I find difficult which
involves use of my hands.
I assume a child who has difficulty with skills in this area would develop
similar feelings. Yet, I as an adult have had the time to develop appropriate
social behaviors and and coping skills to deal with the related frustrations I
encounter regarding this area of weakness. How many of us would be able to
appropriately deal with a situation that required us to perform a task that was
difficult and that we struggled with for the majority of our day? Yet, that is
often what is expected of children.
It is quite ironic that educational institutions are often the source of new
ideas and technologies. Yet, schools haven't kept pace with the application of
new, available reources--using these ideas and tools to faciliate learning and
performance in situations where they are most needed. Is it due mostly to
rigidity of belief systems, fear of change, lack of funds, lack of a 'system'
to organize and implement changes--or all of this and more?
Guess I should get off my soapbox, but I find it so absurd that schools systems
have not kept pace with the needs of the students, and that many involved in
the system are also unaware of ways to better do this job. As I see it--the
goal of educational programs should be to educate students to the best of their
abilities--emphasizing their strengths and assisting them in remediating
weaknesses (when possible and needed)--so that they are able function
independently, contribute positively to society as well as develop adequate
feelings of satisfaction and positive self-worth in the process.
KATHRYN A TAUBERT
>give you that satisfying >bang< at the bottom of a keystroke, and they
>drive me NUTS. I find I type harder and harder on them until it's as
>if I was back on that Underwood I learned to type on as a kid,
>whacking the keys as hard as I can.
ooooohhhh INTERESTING, Tom. I find that I LUV the sound and "feel" of the
clickety click too. Especially when I'm on a roll and flying. There is some
sort of feedback here that's satisfying. I don't like "squishy" keyboards
either.
Never really thought of it before, but that makes PERFECT sense to me.
KAT in CT
Tom Benedict
HMMM! Then I've got another question for you:
Have you ever used one of those keyboards manufactured by IBM? I know
the original PC, XT, and AT had them, but some of their newer UNIX and
AS400 workstations still do. They have a spring inside each key so
that when it gets near the bottom of travel, it makes a loud KLANK
sound. A friend of mine who works at IBM said this kind of keyboard
has a special name (something like "Standard 101-key keyboard with
tactile and audio feedback mechanism" or somesuch.)
I hate them.
But the ones I hated even worse were some made by some small company
(can't remember the name). They took a squishy keyboard, crammed a
speaker in it, and made the speaker make a "dit" sound every time you
hit a key.
dit dit dit ... dit dit dit dit dit .. dit dit . dit dit dit dit dit ... dit
I have always been very good about not launching computer equipment
through windows. My resolve has been sorely tested. ;)
Tom
KATHRYN A TAUBERT
>Have you ever used one of those keyboards manufactured by IBM? I know
>the original PC, XT, and AT had them, but some of their newer UNIX and
>AS400 workstations still do. They have a spring inside each key so
>that when it gets near the bottom of travel, it makes a loud KLANK
>sound.
Yep. When I used to work for a livin'.
A friend of mine who works at IBM said this kind of keyboard
>has a special name (something like "Standard 101-key keyboard with
>tactile and audio feedback mechanism" or somesuch.)
>
That, I don't know. AT that time, I barely knew where the ON/OFF switch on
the PC was, much less what to call the keyboard.
"-))
>I hate them.
For me, compared to a pen/pencil, they were Nirvana. It's all relative, I
'spose.
>
>But the ones I hated even worse were some made by some small company
>(can't remember the name). They took a squishy keyboard, crammed a
>speaker in it, and made the speaker make a "dit" sound every time you
>hit a key.
>
>dit dit dit ... dit dit dit dit dit .. dit dit . dit dit dit dit dit ...
dit
>
Sounds like Morse Code.
dit dit ......dit...dit...dit ...dit dit.........
(anybody know what THAT means? "-)
(or is it dit dit dit.....dit dit....dit dit dit....??)
>I have always been very good about not launching computer equipment
>through windows. My resolve has been sorely tested. ;)
HA! Reminds me of a cartoon I saw once and conscripted for my bulletin board
in my former office (right next to the Question Authority poster)...
had this guy standing over a computer with a sledge hammer raised high over
his head....about to smash the thing to smithereens...
the caption read:
"Hit Any Key."
"-))
KAT in CT
>
>Tom
KATHRYN A TAUBERT
MCartwrite wrote in message <19990115202751...@ng17.aol.com>...
>Sounds like Morse Code.
>dit dit ......dit...dit...dit ...dit dit.........
>(anybody know what THAT means? "-)
>head...
>: )
>mary
ROFL!! So sorry, Mary..
hee hee hee hee heee
KAT in CT
MCartwrite
dit dit ......dit...dit...dit ...dit dit.........
(anybody know what THAT means? "-)
i know that it means that i left the house repeating dit...dit...dit... in my
head...
: )
mary
Kacey
I was writing. I had abysmal handwriting: big, childish, uneven, heavy,
ridden with errors, and *forget* cursive writing. Was I more
self-conscious about this being a girl? Other girls always seemed (to me)
to have lovely writing. I have never understood why my handwriting was so
bad when I could draw *anything.* Obviously, the problem wasn't in
hand-eye-brain coordination but in some thing to do with written
language(?)
Now I am the mother of a son who is also a lefty with tourette. Unlike
myself, he "hooks" his wrist over the page in spite of all the attempts and
explanations I have made to correct this. This goes deeper than what he
was shown to do.
I worked hard to achieve some level of decency in my handwriting. It still
isn't easy, and I've ended up with several "styles" which sort of switch
off and on. I can't say how much I love this computer!
Kacey
Tom Benedict <bene...@tower.dla.utexas.edu> wrote in article
<x7d84g8...@tower.dla.utexas.edu>...
> "KATHRYN A TAUBERT" <KATA...@prodigy.net> writes:
>
adhd...@my-dejanews.com
accordion file of his med records. I will discuss them with his doctor when we
have our next appt (this coming weekend). I know he's ad IQ tests, but I don't
know if they were broken down, so I don't know if any point spread was evident
or not ...
> Yep. Has he had any neuropsychological evaluation? And if so, do
> you happen to have the subtest scores on any IQ test? And did anyone
> run a Beery-Buktenica or Bender Gestalt Visual-Motor Integration test
> on him? When Fangbasher gets caught up, she might have some very good
> suggestions for you.
>
adhd...@my-dejanews.com
had something happen this week which I think falls into that kind of
experience. Forgive me if I've posted it here - I've spoken with so many
people at the school and with my son's doctors, and I can't quite remember if
I posted it here, too, or not ... ANyway ... my son attends a school for kids
with behavioral problems. Jst about all of these kids are "behind" in social
skills development, and some have physical limitations, as well. My son is
considered "gifted" in academic areas, and so was moved to a class where the
teachers felt he would be given academic work more appropriate for his level.
Becase of his long time in home tutoring, he fell behind in some math work
(notably, memorizing multiplication tables) and both his old and new
treachers agreed that if he had problems with math in the new class, he could
return to the old class for the lower-level math class. OK. Now for the weird
part. Turns out my son did just fine in the math class, but had a lot of
trouble in the phys ed class. These kids were older and better developed as
far as coordination was concerned. For the first time in his history of
schooling, he told me he did not want to go to school. Also, when he did go
to phys ed with the new class, he only participated for a brief time, then
opted to sit on the sidelines. The teacher decided that to "punish" him, he
would be sent back to class to do written work AND lose all his points for
good behavior ( a considerable sum), which ALSO meant that he could not go on
a planned class trip next week. When my son got home, he was very upset, and
I called the teacher to talk this over. SHe said she couldn't allow him to go
back to the other class for gym because it would be disruptive to his
academic schedule. Now why, I ask, is it OK for him to go back for math, ubt
not for phys ed? Speaking as a totally uncoordinated phys ed nerd, I xan
totally relate to my son's difficulties. This is one of the things that makes
me so mad - here is a school which is geared to recognizing each child's
differences and SERVING them, and they are more than willing to move him up
for being gifted, but when it comes to remediating him in other areas,
specifically ohys ed, they overlook his needs entirely. Why is it that there
are differing levels of academic classes, but phys ed is all on one level? I
know that I certainly could have benefitted from a remedial phys ed class.
This is where my self-esteem came most under attack.
Fortunately, my son's story has a happy ending: after my fruitless
conversation with the teacher, I called back and spoke with the school's
administrator. She was very helpful, and agreed that my son could, indeed, go
back for the lower phys ed class. His points were reinstated AND he gets to
go on the class trip. The really upsetting thing about this, also,was that my
son has been doing SO WELL in this school and his self-esteem has just
skyrocketed since enrolling. When this incident occurred, it left me
thinking, 'oh no, here we go again.' Fortunately, it seems as though my fears
were unfounded.
It just goes to show that the squeaky wheel does, indeed, get the oil.
BB2
Testing VMI (visual-motor integration) is recommended for children with TS as a
basic ... reference Leckman and Cohen's brand new book on TS, published in Nov.
VMI difficulties may be a fundamental part of TS. The reason you may not have had
them done is that they are usually done by a neuropsychologist. The routine tests
that a school psychologist will do may not get at the subtle difficulties that a
child with TS may be experiencing. Few school psychologists are trained to
administer the test needed for adequate neuropsychological functioning and you may
need to insist upon a neuropsych profile. This could include Beery,
Bender-Gestalt, NEPSY, Rey-Oesterrich, Finger Tapping, Purdue Pegboard, etc. BB2
adhd...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> None of these tests sound familiar to me without dragging out the giant
> accordion file of his med records. I will discuss them with his doctor when we
> have our next appt (this coming weekend). I know he's ad IQ tests, but I don't
> know if they were broken down, so I don't know if any point spread was evident
> or not ...
>
> > Yep. Has he had any neuropsychological evaluation? And if so, do
> > you happen to have the subtest scores on any IQ test? And did anyone
> > run a Beery-Buktenica or Bender Gestalt Visual-Motor Integration test
> > on him? When Fangbasher gets caught up, she might have some very good
> > suggestions for you.
> >
> > Leslie
> >
> > >-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> > >http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
> >
> > --
> > For information on Tourette Syndrome, see http://members.xoom.com/lpacker
> >
> > For info on support services and resources on TS in the Long Island area,
> > see http://members.xoom.com/LITSA
> >
>
Tom Benedict
> >I hate them.
>
> For me, compared to a pen/pencil, they were Nirvana. It's all relative, I
> 'spose.
Ok, ok, yeah, I'd take an IBM clanker keyboard over pen and pencil any
day. Funny part is, no one else would want me to have it. I was in a
computer class in school and started really going at it one day (I can
stay over 100wpm for about five minutes if I'm REALLY into what I'm
doing.) It sounded like a machine gun going off. I was finally asked
to stop because I was disrupting the rest of the class. ;)
Tom
MCartwrite
since the day before...
: )
Tom Benedict
> This is interesting---I'm a lefty who never "hooked" my wrist over the line
> I was writing. I had abysmal handwriting: big, childish, uneven, heavy,
> ridden with errors, and *forget* cursive writing. Was I more
> self-conscious about this being a girl? Other girls always seemed (to me)
> to have lovely writing. I have never understood why my handwriting was so
> bad when I could draw *anything.* Obviously, the problem wasn't in
> hand-eye-brain coordination but in some thing to do with written
> language(?)
> Now I am the mother of a son who is also a lefty with tourette. Unlike
> myself, he "hooks" his wrist over the page in spite of all the attempts and
> explanations I have made to correct this. This goes deeper than what he
> was shown to do.
> I worked hard to achieve some level of decency in my handwriting. It still
> isn't easy, and I've ended up with several "styles" which sort of switch
> off and on. I can't say how much I love this computer!
> Kacey
Hey, Kacey, you just jogged my memory!
The one time I had a pretty ok time with handwriting was when I was
studying Japanese. Even Kanji came out pretty well. I was *slow*,
but fairly neat.
One of the things I liked most about Japanese is that it goes top to
bottom, right to left. It originated as a written language using
brush and ink, and the calligrapher's hand never touched the paper, so
the "I'm plowing my hand over stuff I just wrote" thing was never a
problem.
I absolutely loved that in class. For the first time *I* was the one
turning in neat work with no smudging. ;)
Now if only I wasn't so lousy at picking up new languages. ;)
Tom
lpacker
>None of these tests sound familiar to me without dragging out the giant
>accordion file of his med records. I will discuss them with his doctor when we
>have our next appt (this coming weekend). I know he's ad IQ tests, but I don't
>know if they were broken down, so I don't know if any point spread was evident
>or not ...
You can find out from the person who did the IQ testing. Ask the
school psych.
lpacker
>Dear ADHDMom,
>
>Testing VMI (visual-motor integration) is recommended for children with TS as a
>basic ... reference Leckman and Cohen's brand new book on TS, published in Nov.
>VMI difficulties may be a fundamental part of TS. The reason you may not have had
>them done is that they are usually done by a neuropsychologist. The routine tests
>that a school psychologist will do may not get at the subtle difficulties that a
>child with TS may be experiencing.
BB2: school psychologists routinely do the Beery or Bender-Gestalt.
Many parents may just not know to take a close look at in the psych's
report and the psych may gloss over it in discussing the eval unless
it is specifically brought up as a topic for discussion (concern over
handwriting, slow writing, etc.).
Part of the problem is that districts tend to say, "well, if the kid
tests out at the 30% or so, they're still within normal limits so
there's nothing we need to do." That may be problematic for our
kids, who when confronted with the frustration of not being able to
keep up motorically with their mental abilities, may experience
exacerbation in other symptoms, dysphoria, or more.
>Few school psychologists are trained to
>administer the test needed for adequate neuropsychological functioning and you may
>need to insist upon a neuropsych profile. This could include Beery,
>Bender-Gestalt, NEPSY, Rey-Oesterrich, Finger Tapping, Purdue Pegboard, etc. BB2
Most of the above are done by school psychologists, BB2.
Cheers,
Leslie
>
>adhd...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>> None of these tests sound familiar to me without dragging out the giant
>> accordion file of his med records. I will discuss them with his doctor when we
>> have our next appt (this coming weekend). I know he's ad IQ tests, but I don't
>> know if they were broken down, so I don't know if any point spread was evident
>> or not ...
>>
FANGBASHER
children with TS as a
basic ... reference Leckman and Cohen's brand new book on TS, published in Nov.
VMI difficulties may be a fundamental part of TS. The reason you may not have
had
them done is that they are usually done by a neuropsychologist.>>
Most school psychologists do include basic assessment in this area as part of
the standardized psychoeducational battery (i.e. VMI and/or Bender would
generally would be included). However, as Blessed indicated many are not
trained in some of the newer and more complex neuropsychological areas;
however, that is changing and many are receiving increased and updated training
in these areas.
Once assessment has been completed, results interpreted--the question then
becomes how best to treat? What is most beneficial for the child? Will
remediation techniques help that child in those areas that deficits have been
identified? Would it be best to make accommodations in that child's
educational program in which areas of strength are emphasized as well as teach
compensatory strategies?
This sort of falls in line with what another poster wrote about one having
difficulty in areas involving athletic skills (sorry--am not positive who wrote
it and don't want to misquote--I am having difficulty recalling previously
read posts; aol has been acting 'funny' these days for some of us MAC users
with older, slower modems). I had also included something in long-winded post
about this but deleted it to be more brief.
Although practice, training, and individual assistance can improve athletic
performance for many in a variety of sports, all won't become stars or even
excel. That is the same for some in the area of instrumental music as well as
visual arts. Yet, we are more cognizant and even accepting of those who don't
'star' in these areas and provide alternatives. If someone is good in music
rather than sports, that area of strength is often (although not always)
encouraged.
We generally do not do that with school related subjects, though, although many
districts have set up alternative education programs for students who show
strengths in non-academic areas. However, the child is often not given an
opportunity to participate in such until at least high school and not until
after he/she has failed in the other areas or has shown significant acting-out
or other delinquent behaviors in the more-academic setting.
Sorry to go on a tangent again--do agree that areas of visual-motor perception
and related areas should be part of psycho-educational evaluation. Then if
difficulty is found--what needs to be considered is whether not it is
treatable--and if so, where and how best to treat. It is important to realize
that not all areas of difficulty can be remediated. (i.e. Not all areas of
visual impairment are helped by treatment. Some can be helped by visual
correction (glasses or contact lenses); others may be helped by surgery. Some
might benefit from remedial training provided by optometrists through vision
therapy. If someone is totally blind, they need different type of assistance.
Then there are those who are cortically blind--they can 'see' but may not be
able to use their vision because of of a cortical (neurological) deficit). The
same is true of learning disabilities or differences. In some cases
remediation techniues will help; for others alternative techniques and
accomodations are what will be most effective.
BlessedBy2
Thanks, Leslie and Fangbasher, for letting me know that schools DO do these
tests ... I clearly was clueless, having paid privately for ours :-)) I see
the problem with the rest of the package as you mentioned, Leslie ... my son
tested at <I think> something like 58%ile on <I think> Beery VMI, which the
neuropsych called within "normal limits" ... and then he didn't explain it any
further, when this is actually a significant problem for him. So it's knowing
how to interpret these numbers for a child with TS that counts -- and that's
where Leckman and Cohen's Chapter 5 comes in helpful. BB2
Cansas
>>administer the test needed for adequate neuropsychological functioning and
>you may
>>need to insist upon a neuropsych profile. This could include Beery,
>>Bender-Gestalt, NEPSY, Rey-Oesterrich, Finger Tapping, Purdue Pegboard, etc.
>BB2
At what age do they recommend these tests being done?
Candice
KATHRYN A TAUBERT
>stay over 100wpm for about five minutes if I'm REALLY into what I'm
>doing.) It sounded like a machine gun going off. I was finally asked
>to stop because I was disrupting the rest of the class. ;)
>
>Tom
Oh that's just GREAT. If "we" don't disrupt in ONE way, we'll do it in
another..."
ya' jest can't win..
"-))
KAT in CT
MCartwrite
writing. we've never had "any" testing done. she enters middle school next
year. would it be beneficial for her to have any kind of tests on record? if
so, which ones?
mary
lpacker
Personally, I can't see putting kids through testing unless there's a
reason. If she's having problems, then testing or evaluation is
indicated.
Are you concerned that the middle school might not give her the
support that she may need? If so, then yes, it may be helpful to
create some kind of record to document the need and results, but
testing itself may not be necessary.
Leslie
FANGBASHER
there's a
reason. If she's having problems, then testing or evaluation is
indicated.
Are you concerned that the middle school might not give her the
support that she may need? If so, then yes, it may be helpful to
create some kind of record to document the need and results, but
testing itself may not be necessary.>>
Leslie, I very much agree. Testing is only one type of 'tool' used for
evaluation and diagnostic purposes. It is not an 'end' in itself, nor should
it be taken as 'gospel.' It is not an exact science. It can help to identify
a weakness, disability, or strength, but I have also seen results
misinterpreted and used inappropriately by parents as well as
professionals--although that is generally NOT the case.
I will never forget the time when a school psychologist, whom I had known in
the past, was concerned because her child, who was in I believe 3rd grade,
tested at something like grade 3.4 in reading, and according to the time of
year it was should have tested at 3.7 to be at grade level. Thus, she felt
that the private school he was in was not was not doing what it should be
because her child was 'below' grade level...sigh...
MCartwrite
she's doing quite well this year.
was just curious about testing.
her teacher did ask if she's ever had an i.q. test.
she hasn't, but i am curious...
DCFields
>Guess I oughta' read Chapter 5, huh?
>(grinning sheepishly......)
>KAT in CT
>
Did 'ya think you were gonna get away with only readin' the last chapter <grin>
... BB2
Ahhhhh....but, Kat doesnt have to read the last chapter of the Leckman book,
because she wrote the last chapter.
Diane in CT, finally finished "Divine Secrets of the Ya Ya Sisterhood" so now
it is time to watch the conference tapes and finish the Leckman book.
Randall Bart
illuminated alt.support.tourette thusly:
>Now I am the mother of a son who is also a lefty with tourette. Unlike
>myself, he "hooks" his wrist over the page in spite of all the attempts and
>explanations I have made to correct this.
Correct? Most lefties find the hooked wrist the best writing style. The
main reason is not to avoid smudging what you've written. Writing
implements are meant to be dragged across the paper. If you write left
handed without hooking your wrist, you're pushing the pen into the paper,
which will cause the point to catch, and lead to jerky writing.
Any reason to believe your son won't write better with a hooked wrist?
--
R B |\ Randall Bart
a a |/ mailto:Bart...@usa.spam.net mailto:Bart...@att.spam.net
n r |\ 1-310-542-6013 Please reply without spam I Love You
d t ||\ Greatest Unisys A Series Programmer Available is Now Available
a |/ http://members.aol.com/PanicYr00/RBResume.html
l |\ The Year 2000 Bugs: http://members.aol.com/PanicYr00
l |/ MS^7=6/28/107 http://members.aol.com/PanicYr00/Sequence.html
KATHRYN A TAUBERT
>Any reason to believe your son won't write better with a hooked wrist?
>
On top of everything ELSE, I hated getting ink all over my wrist, so I
learned to write with a "backhanded" wrist motion, which, of course, made it
even MORE difficult on those dinky little right handed arm chair
desks...sigh...(how did i EVER get thru school.....)
And you are right, it didn't help the quality of my handwriting any. But it
kept it from getting smeared. So, instead of being illegible AND smeared, it
was merely illegible...sigh....
"-)
KAT in CT
Kacey
Kacey
Randall Bart <Bart...@att.spam.net> wrote in article
<36a3154a.40529706@netnews>...
> 'Twas Sat, 16 Jan 1999 02:54:58 GMT, when "Kacey" <ka...@bestweb.net>
> illuminated alt.support.tourette thusly:
>
> >Now I am the mother of a son who is also a lefty with tourette. Unlike
> >myself, he "hooks" his wrist over the page in spite of all the attempts
and
> >explanations I have made to correct this.
>
> Correct? Most lefties find the hooked wrist the best writing style. The
> main reason is not to avoid smudging what you've written. Writing
> implements are meant to be dragged across the paper. If you write left
> handed without hooking your wrist, you're pushing the pen into the paper,
> which will cause the point to catch, and lead to jerky writing.
>
lpacker
>lpacker wrote: <<Personally, I can't see putting kids through testing unless
>there's a
>reason. If she's having problems, then testing or evaluation is
>indicated.
>Are you concerned that the middle school might not give her the
>support that she may need? If so, then yes, it may be helpful to
>create some kind of record to document the need and results, but
>testing itself may not be necessary.>>
>
>Leslie, I very much agree.
(I knew I liked you! <g>)
> Testing is only one type of 'tool' used for
>evaluation and diagnostic purposes. It is not an 'end' in itself, nor should
>it be taken as 'gospel.' It is not an exact science. It can help to identify
>a weakness, disability, or strength, but I have also seen results
>misinterpreted and used inappropriately by parents as well as
>professionals--although that is generally NOT the case.
>I will never forget the time when a school psychologist, whom I had known in
>the past, was concerned because her child, who was in I believe 3rd grade,
>tested at something like grade 3.4 in reading, and according to the time of
>year it was should have tested at 3.7 to be at grade level. Thus, she felt
>that the private school he was in was not was not doing what it should be
>because her child was 'below' grade level...sigh...
>
I've seen that a lot of times, too. Test results are just numbers
unless they're in the hands of someone who knows how to put them in
the context of other sources of information.
lpacker
Why did the teacher ask? Did she feel or suspect that maybe she
wasn't functioning up to her potential? If so, then some testing
might be helpful. If she asked because she thought she might be
gifted and she's not being treated as gifted, then again, some testing
might be indicated.
If she asked out of idle curiosity, then darn her for getting that
idea stuck in your head! <ok, ok, I know... we can't really blame
her...> <g>
MCartwrite
Date: Thu, Jan 21, 1999 5:17 PM
Message-id: <36b3a739...@news.erols.com>
mcart...@aol.com (MCartwrite) wrote:
>thanks, leslie.
>she's doing quite well this year.
>was just curious about testing.
>her teacher did ask if she's ever had an i.q. test.
>she hasn't, but i am curious...
Why did the teacher ask? Did she feel or suspect that maybe she
wasn't functioning up to her potential? If so, then some testing
might be helpful. If she asked because she thought she might be
gifted and she's not being treated as gifted, then again, some testing
might be indicated.
If she asked out of idle curiosity, then darn her for getting that
idea stuck in your head! <ok, ok, I know... we can't really blame
her...> <g>
Leslie>>>>>
lol!
she was asking because all her grades are in the upper 90s even though she's
missed a lot of school.
she would qualify for gifted but when we tried that the year before the
pressure (ocd) was driving everyone crazy and left her frustrated.
mary
David Martineau
What was mentioned by someone about that book, listed on page 368 is
exactly what my parents required be put on my IEP at school specifically
because I had trouble keeping a pen or pencil in hand.
Individual Education Plans are an integral part of a TS student's
academic career and will help overcome a student's problems due to TS by
finding alternatives to the actions which excaberate tics or obsessions
such as taping assignments, taking tests orally, having a
bubble-filler-inner, having a carbon- or photo-copy of another students
notes, being able to write directly on the test sheet -- rather than
transferring answers to another paper.
Another problem encountered is when left-handed children are taught how
to write by right-handers! Studies show that they don't have the ease of
flowing script OR print, due to sentences going from left to right;
you're working against your body's natural tendencies to EXtend your
arm. In this day and age, you should find no teacher who will inhibit
your child's natural handedness. The horror stories you could hear from
those who have been forced to switch would make you steer clear of any
person who would discourage your child's preference.
Email me if anyoe wants to talk about lefties or IEP's
--Elecro--
====================================
"Are you telling me, you built a Time Machine...out of a _DeLorean_?!?!"
-Marty McFly, Back To The Future, 1985
====================================
lpacker
OK, but this is not black/white, is it? If she is capable of doing
some enrichment/gifted work but unable to do all of it, why can't she
have the part she can handle?
And when you say that the pressure (ocd) was driving "everyone" crazy,
who is the "everyone?" Why are others getting crazy? <g>
MCartwrite
OK, but this is not black/white, is it? If she is capable of doing
some enrichment/gifted work but unable to do all of it, why can't she
have the part she can handle?
And when you say that the pressure (ocd) was driving "everyone" crazy,
who is the "everyone?" Why are others getting crazy? <g>
Leslie>>>>
she does do "some" gifted work, but is not in the school district's gifted and
talented program on an official basis.
the "everyone" was mostly those of us living with her.
as the work got harder and the time for completion longer, she was stressing us
and herself till it was no longer beneficial. that's when i realized for the
first time that "we could use modification." she discontinued accelerated
reading last year because while a very strong reader usually...she began to
hate it because of poor concentration.
live and learn.
mary
DrMom811
After suffering a month with an out-of-commision $2,000 deck of cards, I
baaaack!
But, I'm also pretty out of the "loop".
So, if anyone can stand another lefty's input....
I have fairly nice handwriting, and I don't use the "wrist hook" - but I do
have my hand above the line - on college-rule paper the knuckle of my pinky is
about five lines over the line I'm beginning, the pen starts out scrunched into
my palm & the words go out as far as my fingers stretch, then I reposition my
hand to finish the line. Depending on the size of my letters, this will be 2-3
"pinky knuckle" placements per line. With practice the re-positioning is rapid
& precise. I have always found it best to use a fine point-pen with a light
touch, thus the ink has had a chance to dry by the time I am ready to begin my
5th line. This eliminates the smearing, and the worst I usually suffer is a
slightly gray "pinky knuckle".
BTW, I HATE writing w/ pencils - EVERYthing gets smudgy!
Barb
FANGBASHER
>> main reason is not to avoid smudging what you've written>>
I am also a lefty, and ever since lower elementary school I began writing
vertically from top to bottom. I find it the most comfortable of any position.
I once had a teacher who was concerned because she thought with my paper
facing in the direction that it was that the person sitting next to me might
copy my paper. I don't believe anyone else gave me any negative flack about it
although I've noticed a few curious looks over the years....
Kacey
FANGBASHER <fangb...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19990127220440...@ng-cb1.aol.com>...
> drmom811wrote:
> I am also a lefty, and ever since lower elementary school I began writing
> vertically from top to bottom. I find it the most comfortable of any
position.
> I once had a teacher who was concerned because she thought with my paper
> facing in the direction that it was that the person sitting next to me
might
> copy my paper.
As a current student, I like a classroom where I can sit on the far left
row of seats where no one can see my tilted paper as I write. Preferably
this is also next to a window during an exam, so if I have an urge to
stare or some kind of head-movement, I can look out the window and not
appear to be looking at anyone else's paper---
DrMom811
>As a current student, I like a classroom where I can sit on the far left
>row of seats where no one can see my tilted paper as I write. Preferably
>this is also next to a window during an exam, so if I have an urge to
>stare or some kind of head-movement, I can look out the window and not
>appear to be looking at anyone else's paper---
>
When I started college (at the ripe old age of 35) I caused quite a stir in
most of my classrooms by searching our the "lefty" desk then hauling it over to
the left side of the room. Not that there were any windows that could be
looked out of without standing on said desk, but I felt most comfortable there.
One instructor, I suppose trying to point our that I was acting "childish"
asked me "how old are you anyway?"
I replied "Old enough to have the right to sit where I feel comfortable!" and
proceeded to take off my right shoe so that I could tuck it up under my left
leg. Got a A in the class anyway, which just goes to prove.....absolutely
nothing....
Barb