"Sludge Remover" - does it really work?
Oleg Kiselev
>I most tropical fish stores, there's a product called "Sludge Remover."
>The label claims, "Eliminates messy cleaning!" and "totally harmless
>to all fish."
It is harmless and it seems to be just lots of smelly bacteria (ugh, does
that stuff stink!).
>A few days after you treat your water with this, you're supposed to notice
>that the contaminants in your gravel are slowly *disappearing*,
Dunno about that. I tried it and it seemed not to do much of anything, but
then my tanks did not have very much sludge in them and when I did have
one tank go a bit "seedy" (hey, that's one out of 45!), I was out of that
Sludge Remover stuff.
Does anyone know for sure if it really works?
(A number of people told me that "Oxygenator" gizmo that slowly releases
oxygen into the water by catalizing H2O2 does much the same. In my experience
adding some H2O2 to the water accomplished similar effects -- black slime
disappeared from the filter tubing, algae receded, gravel looked cleaner.
But be careful, some books say that repeated dosing with H2O2 will poison
your fish. I haven't found it to be true, but I better warn you, right?)
--
DISCLAMMER: I speak for myself only, unless explicitly indicated otherwise.
Oleg Kiselev ol...@veritas.com
VERITAS Software ...!{apple|uunet}!veritas!oleg
(408)727-1222x586
Andy Burgess
>
>(A number of people told me that "Oxygenator" gizmo that slowly releases
>oxygen into the water by catalizing H2O2 does much the same. In my experience
>adding some H2O2 to the water accomplished similar effects -- black slime
>disappeared from the filter tubing, algae receded, gravel looked cleaner.
>But be careful, some books say that repeated dosing with H2O2 will poison
>your fish. I haven't found it to be true, but I better warn you, right?)
How much H2O2 did you use Oleg? I'd like to try it on some blue green
algae. Did it affect your plants?
Andy
--
Andy Burgess
Independent Consultant
a...@cichlid.com
uunet!silma!cichlid!aab
Fred Kratky
>In article <1991Jan05....@Veritas.COM> ol...@Veritas.COM (Oleg Kiselev) writes:
>>
>>(A number of people told me that "Oxygenator" gizmo that slowly releases
>>oxygen into the water by catalizing H2O2 does much the same. In my experience
>>adding some H2O2 to the water accomplished similar effects -- black slime
>>disappeared from the filter tubing, algae receded, gravel looked cleaner.
>>But be careful, some books say that repeated dosing with H2O2 will poison
>>your fish. I haven't found it to be true, but I better warn you, right?)
For those of us who took our last chemistry class in grade 12, could you
give a common name for H2O2??
--
|| // // ,'/~~\' Fred Kratky fr...@mks.com
/||/// //|' `\\\ Mortice Kern Systems Inc. (519) 884-2251
/ | //_// ||\___/ 35 King St. N., Waterloo, Ont., Can. N2J 2W9
0_/
Oleg Kiselev
>algae. Did it affect your plants?
About 1 ml/gal of the 3% H2O2 you get at the supermarkets. The reason I
was using it had nothing directly to do with black slime on the UGF
tubing, but with prompting Corydoras paleatus to lay eggs, just to see
if they are fertile or not (I wound up having 2 females and the silly
fish would lay eggs every time O2 level got increased), so I was
experimenting with other fish. Somewhere or other I read or heard of
using H2O2 to simulate highly ionized and oxygenated snow melt water.
It did not seem to have any effect on plants and seemed to spur catfish
into a frenzy of laying eggs. The side effect I noticed was the sharp
decrease in slime and some receeding of algae, but not to the levels
described to me by people who used Oxygenator.
I would say that using Oxygenator is a better and safer bet -- it allows
no H2O2 to enter the water, only O (or is it O2? Anyone know for sure?)
and H2O.
Kristin Harvey
>no H2O2 to enter the water, only O (or is it O2? Anyone know for sure?)
>and H2O.
Oxygen gas is O2. I assume that the oxygen gas dissolved
is water is also O2, since a single O atom is very
unstable, and would bond to any thing it could find
to bond to.
Just a little bit of trivia left over from the days
when I was a biology major and had to take chemistry
classes. Scarey that some of it is still with me.
Kristin Harvey
660...@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu
Steve Dorner
>give a common name for H2O2??
Hydrogen Peroxide.
--
Steve Dorner, U of Illinois Computing Services Office
Internet: s-do...@uiuc.edu UUCP: uunet!uiucuxc!uiuc.edu!s-dorner
eye...@pbs.org
> In article <1991Jan7.0...@cichlid.com> a...@cichlid.com (Andy Burgess) writes:
>>In article <1991Jan05....@Veritas.COM> ol...@Veritas.COM (Oleg Kiselev) writes:
>>>
>>>(A number of people told me that "Oxygenator" gizmo that slowly releases
>>>oxygen into the water by catalizing H2O2 does much the same. In my experience
>>>adding some H2O2 to the water accomplished similar effects -- black slime
>>>disappeared from the filter tubing, algae receded, gravel looked cleaner.
>>>But be careful, some books say that repeated dosing with H2O2 will poison
>>>your fish. I haven't found it to be true, but I better warn you, right?)
>
> For those of us who took our last chemistry class in grade 12, could you
> give a common name for H2O2??
H2O2 is Hydrogen peroxide, the same stuff used to bleach hair.
Steve Bartling
>In article <1991Jan7.0...@cichlid.com> a...@cichlid.com (Andy Burgess) writes:
>>In article <1991Jan05....@Veritas.COM> ol...@Veritas.COM (Oleg Kiselev) writes:
>>>
>>>(A number of people told me that "Oxygenator" gizmo that slowly releases
>>>oxygen into the water by catalizing H2O2 does much the same. In my experience
>>>adding some H2O2 to the water accomplished similar effects -- black slime
>>>disappeared from the filter tubing, algae receded, gravel looked cleaner.
>>>But be careful, some books say that repeated dosing with H2O2 will poison
>>>your fish. I haven't found it to be true, but I better warn you, right?)
>
>For those of us who took our last chemistry class in grade 12, could you
>give a common name for H2O2??
>--
> || // // ,'/~~\' Fred Kratky fr...@mks.com
Fred,
H202 is better known as Hydrogen Peroxide. It is a very good oxidant and
can raise the redox level of a tank excessively high. It can burn the gills
of fish and other nasty effects. Use only in emergencies and with extreme care.
Never use it regulary, as it will bite you sooner or later. There is no
substitute for good fish tank care, good water quality and excellent filtration.
H202 use has often been described as a band-aid approach that fails to solve
the underlying problems that prompted its use.
Ain't soapboxes wonderful :-)
I'm stepping down now,
- Steve Bartling
email : bart...@dvorak.amd.com
P.S. I would like to take a second to toss out a fishy resume of sorts.
I am always in the woodwork in these *.aquaria newsgroups and I am
available for questions and discussions by email as I often don't have time
to post articles.
I'm a cichlid nut ( 8 years ) and have recently been baptised into
the religion of the 'natural system' salt water reef tanks.
I build almost all of my equipment and research everthing I have time
for. I have trickle filters and foam fractionators on all of my 'freshwater'
tanks ( yes, I said freshwater ). I do not use trickle filters on my reef
tanks, only foam fractionators ( I just started the salt water tanks,
so only time will show valid methodologies ).
To summerize, I normally don't post a lot of articles, but I always stay
current on the *.aquaria newsgroups. Most of the old timers on this network
have crossed paths with me, but I thought I would introduce myself to
any newcomers ( howdy ! ). I have a lot of experience with African cichlids
of the Rift Lake vintage and I don't mind answering questions.
Have fun, Steve B.
Kristin Harvey
>For those of us who took our last chemistry class in grade 12, could you
>give a common name for H2O2??
>--
> || // // ,'/~~\' Fred Kratky fr...@mks.com
> /||/// //|' `\\\ Mortice Kern Systems Inc. (519) 884-2251
> / | //_// ||\___/ 35 King St. N., Waterloo, Ont., Can. N2J 2W9
>0_/
H2O2 is hydrogen peroxide. It is available in drug
stores, and usually comes in a dark brown plastic
bottle, because it is somewhat unstable, and light
can cause it to change into H2O and O2.
Jack Duston,Software Support Services,4255,21-2368
>
>(A number of people told me that "Oxygenator" gizmo that slowly releases
>oxygen into the water by catalizing H2O2 does much the same. In my experience
>adding some H2O2 to the water accomplished similar effects -- black slime
>disappeared from the filter tubing, algae receded, gravel looked cleaner.
>But be careful, some books say that repeated dosing with H2O2 will poison
>your fish. I haven't found it to be true, but I better warn you, right?)
fish. I would still like an easy way to get all the lift tubes and filter
hoses clean. Does anyone have one of these "Oxygenator"s? Do they live up
to the ad propaganda? If so, how do they work (ie how can I make my own,
it appears that they work on a fairly simple principle, true?).
Thanks,
Jack
ps. an idea for the FAQ:
I would like to see a section with basic hints, tips, and such
like those I have gleened from reading this group. Perhaps it could be
titled "Basic Home Remedies" or something similar. The type of thing I'm
thinking of might be:
To raise PH : get Baking Soda (Sodium Bicarbonate) at your local
grocery store. You can get 2 boxes for a buck, as
compared to whatever they get at the fish store.
Much cheaper, and you will have an extra box for
your fridge to make it smell better!
Cautions: Large PH changes can shock fish. Do
not change PH more than .2 on PH scale
per day.
Maybe I'm just dumb, but it didn't occur to me that this was the same
stuff that the fish store was selling me with a (not so) small dealer
mark up until someone posted it!
External Parasite and Fungus Remedy : Salt Water Bath
get non-iodized salt at the local grocery store. Move
afflicted fish to hospital tank if possible. Add 1 tsp
salt per 5 gal water first day. Second day repeat treat-
ment. Third day repeat (ie by third day there will be
3 tsp per 5 gal water). Treatment is complete after 4th
day. Do partial water changes for next couple days to
gradually lower salinity and then return fish to tank.
Cautions: Treatment may kill live plants.
I know, it's hard to kill dead ones ;-). I used this remedy on an Irridescent
Shark that had rampant fin rot after I had tried 2 "store bought" medicines
with no success. This cleared it up. His dorsal and tail fin mostly grew
back, but unfortunately his side fins never did. Though I still feel badly
for him, he has learned to swim quite well without them.
Oh well, enough rambling. I would give credit to whoever posted
these if I remembered who it was, but I don't. Feel free to edit them as
necessary!
Later,
Jack
Disclaim is mine, go get your own claim!
Jack Duston - Computervision Bedford, MA <-- I'm living in a Land of
I'd rather be playing 19 holes. Confusion. -P Collins
Jack Duston,Software Support Services,4255,21-2368
>
[much oratory deleted ;-)]
>
> P.S. I would like to take a second to toss out a fishy resume of sorts.
> I am always in the woodwork in these *.aquaria newsgroups and I am
> available for questions and discussions by email as I often don't have
> time to post articles.
>
> I'm a cichlid nut ( 8 years ) and have recently been baptised into
> the religion of the 'natural system' salt water reef tanks.
> I build almost all of my equipment and research everthing I have time
> for. I have trickle filters and foam fractionators on all of my 'freshwater'
> tanks ( yes, I said freshwater ). I do not use trickle filters on my reef
> tanks, only foam fractionators ( I just started the salt water tanks,
> so only time will show valid methodologies ).
Isn't this bass ackwards (to use fish slang!) from the norm of
aquarium keeping? It seems most people use trickle filters on marine tanks,
but it is not necessary to have such rigourous filtration on freshwater tanks.
If your marine tank does well with just the foam fractionater, do you
plan on going 'au natural' with your freshwater tanks also? It seems that it
should work, since freshwater tanks seem to require less stringent maintenance
/filtration than marine tanks.
And lastly, what I am really interested in, is how well do the foam
fractionators work in the freshwater tanks? I was under the impression that
they would not work very well if at all because the DOCs would not bond
together to form the foam? I think this is because the surface tension
of the freshwater is not as great as in saltwater (please feel free to give
the real reason! ;-) ).
Please don't take this as criticism! I am just trying to find out
more about your setup. (Hey, you asked for it!). I have a 55 fresh tank
and am curious as to the benefits of having a foam fractioner.
>
> To summerize, I normally don't post a lot of articles, but I always stay
> current on the *.aquaria newsgroups. Most of the old timers on this network
> have crossed paths with me, but I thought I would introduce myself to
> any newcomers ( howdy ! ). I have a lot of experience with African cichlids
> of the Rift Lake vintage and I don't mind answering questions.
See, you did ask for it! ^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Have fun, Steve B.
I do my best!
Bryan Bankhead
> give a common name for H2O2??
Greg Frazier
> Isn't this bass ackwards (to use fish slang!) from the norm of
>aquarium keeping? It seems most people use trickle filters on marine tanks,
>but it is not necessary to have such rigourous filtration on freshwater tanks.
> If your marine tank does well with just the foam fractionater, do you
>plan on going 'au natural' with your freshwater tanks also? It seems that it
>should work, since freshwater tanks seem to require less stringent maintenance
>/filtration than marine tanks.
> And lastly, what I am really interested in, is how well do the foam
>fractionators work in the freshwater tanks? I was under the impression that
>they would not work very well if at all because the DOCs would not bond
>together to form the foam? I think this is because the surface tension
>of the freshwater is not as great as in saltwater (please feel free to give
>the real reason! ;-) ).
Steve hasn't responded, so I'll say something...
In general, saltwater tanks do require more filtration than
freshwater. However, 1) there is a move afoot (started in
Europe) to let the livve rock perform all of the biological
filtration in a reef tank. The rock is porous enough that,
with enough water movement, all aerobic and anaerobic filtration
can be done there. This is good. Trickle filters are great at
aerobic filtration, but not anaerobic, leaving lots of nitrates
in your tank. Since one rarely feeds a reef tank, one should
not have to worry about nitrate buildup (i.e., the live rock
*can* keep up with the nitrate production, if you allow it to).
People following this methodology do continue to use mechanical
filters followed by foam fractioners, both to help oxygenate teh
water and to remove the DOC's.
As for trickle filters on freshwater tanks, keep in mind that Steve
is a cichlid nut, and the conditions in Lake Tangynika closely
resemble those of an ocean. The fish from that lake are accustomed
to stable water conditions, with very clean, highly oxygenated
water. Trickle filters are very nice for that, and live rock
is not an option.
Finally, yes, protein skimmers do require some salt to work (well),
but not a ton. And, since Steve is doing cichlids, he probably had
some salt in his tanks already. In any case, most freshwater fish
do very well with some salt in their water.
--
Greg Frazier fra...@CS.UCLA.EDU !{ucbvax,rutgers}!ucla-cs!frazier
Steve Bartling
>From article <1991Jan9.1...@mozart.amd.com>, by bart...@mozart.amd.com (Steve Bartling):
>>
>
> [much oratory deleted ;-)]
>
>>
>> P.S. I would like to take a second to toss out a fishy resume of sorts.
>> I am always in the woodwork in these *.aquaria newsgroups and I am
>> available for questions and discussions by email as I often don't have
>> time to post articles.
>>
>> I'm a cichlid nut ( 8 years ) and have recently been baptised into
>> the religion of the 'natural system' salt water reef tanks.
>> I build almost all of my equipment and research everthing I have time
>> for. I have trickle filters and foam fractionators on all of my 'freshwater'
>> tanks ( yes, I said freshwater ). I do not use trickle filters on my reef
>> tanks, only foam fractionators ( I just started the salt water tanks,
>> so only time will show valid methodologies ).
>
> Isn't this bass ackwards (to use fish slang!) from the norm of
>aquarium keeping? It seems most people use trickle filters on marine tanks,
>but it is not necessary to have such rigourous filtration on freshwater tanks.
Have you ever tried to keep Malawian Cichlids ???? The easiest and most natural
way is to overcrowd them in a tank to break down their territorial instincts, etc.
If you attempt this, you will need some serious filtration.
If you want to successfully keep and breed most Tanganyikan cichlids, a trickle
filter is a boon. They require almost ocean-like environments. Very clean,
low nitrate, salty, and hard water are required.
I have been using trickle filters combined with a reverse flow undergravel filter
( with very little gravel ... about 1 inch ) for about a year with great
success.
> If your marine tank does well with just the foam fractionater, do you
>plan on going 'au natural' with your freshwater tanks also? It seems that it
>should work, since freshwater tanks seem to require less stringent maintenance
>/filtration than marine tanks.
It is difficult to create a mini-enclosed environment in a fresh water African
cichlid tank. I can't achieve the heavily planted environment that a reef tank
has. I also tend to overcrowd the fishtanks, thus producing a bioload that
would overwhelm any attempts to go natural.
I am going to attempt to go 'au natural' in my reef tank. Wish me luck :-)
> And lastly, what I am really interested in, is how well do the foam
>fractionators work in the freshwater tanks? I was under the impression that
>they would not work very well if at all because the DOCs would not bond
>together to form the foam? I think this is because the surface tension
>of the freshwater is not as great as in saltwater (please feel free to give
>the real reason! ;-) ).
Around Austin, Texas, the water is very hard, alkaline ( 440 ppm dissolved
carbonate salts ... can you spell 'calcified pipes' ? ) and salty
( I can email a complete water analysis if anyone cares :-) ).
The ability of DOC's to bond to the surface of air-water interface is a
function of pH and the concentration of dissolved salts ( does anybody
know anything else it is a function of ? ). The tap water in Austin has
a pH of 11.5 and is comparitively salty ( I lower the pH to 8.3 by chemical
means ). The foam fractionators don't work as efficiently, but they do work.
I just completed a 4 ft foam fractionator last night and tried it on my
Tanganyikan tank. I got two cups of sludge in 4 hours. I would say that
empirical evidence supports the contention that foam fractionators will
work in fresh water :-).
>
> Please don't take this as criticism! I am just trying to find out
>more about your setup. (Hey, you asked for it!). I have a 55 fresh tank
>and am curious as to the benefits of having a foam fractioner.
Trickle filters and foam fractionators are of little use on a freshwater
tank with a pH below about 6.5 - 7.0 and if the tank contains soft water.
I could go into the reasons why, but this posting is long enough as it is.
If you are curious, I wrote Tim Yiu a long email once on the subject.
Maybe he still has it around ? Tim ?
>> of the Rift Lake vintage and I don't mind answering questions.
>
> See, you did ask for it! ^^^^^^^^^^
Damn, you are right ... I did ask for it :-)
>>
>> Have fun, Steve B.
>
> I do my best!
>
> Jack
>Jack Duston - Computervision Bedford, MA <-- I'm living in a Land of
Steve Bartling
>jdu...@cvbnet.UUCP (Jack Duston,Software Support Services,4255,21-2368) writes:
>>but it is not necessary to have such rigourous filtration on freshwater tanks.
some text remove ... ed.
>> And lastly, what I am really interested in, is how well do the foam
>>fractionators work in the freshwater tanks? I was under the impression that
>>they would not work very well if at all because the DOCs would not bond
>>together to form the foam? I think this is because the surface tension
>>of the freshwater is not as great as in saltwater (please feel free to give
>>the real reason! ;-) ).
>
>Steve hasn't responded, so I'll say something...
>
>In general, saltwater tanks do require more filtration than
>freshwater.
some text remove ... ed.
>As for trickle filters on freshwater tanks, keep in mind that Steve
>is a cichlid nut, and the conditions in Lake Tangynika closely
>resemble those of an ocean. The fish from that lake are accustomed
>to stable water conditions, with very clean, highly oxygenated
>water. Trickle filters are very nice for that, and live rock
>is not an option.
>
>Finally, yes, protein skimmers do require some salt to work (well),
>but not a ton. And, since Steve is doing cichlids, he probably had
>some salt in his tanks already. In any case, most freshwater fish
>do very well with some salt in their water.
>
>--
>
>
>Greg Frazier fra...@CS.UCLA.EDU !{ucbvax,rutgers}!ucla-cs!frazier
Well put Greg, thanks. I have not been able to post articles for 1.5 weeks,
so I am now struggling to catch up.
Thanks again Greg.
P.S. The Java Fern was beginning to come back from 1 surviving leaflet
that you sent me, but a red-top cobalt zebra ate it whole a month
ago :-( Thanks for the effort to send me some though.
Timothy Yiu
>In article <12...@cvbnetPrime.COM> jdu...@cvbnet.UUCP (Jack Duston,Software Support Services,4255,21-2368) writes:
>>From article <1991Jan9.1...@mozart.amd.com>, by bart...@mozart.amd.com (Steve Bartling):
>
>If you are curious, I wrote Tim Yiu a long email once on the subject.
>Maybe he still has it around ? Tim ?
Sorry Steve. I saved it to hard copy in my paper files. I'll see if I can
dig it up and scan it into an OCR. But I doubt it. (I don't own the
scanner. It belongs to some one here at work). I'll see what I can do
though.
Tim
/(C Tim Yiu
>{{{{:< ty...@smdvx1.intel.com
\(C "Cogito Ergo Spud" - I think therefore I yam.