Report from the Trenches (in the Muck & Mire)
Chief Thracian
The following article was posted to various queer
mailing lists and newsgroups on August 3, 2003:
(On Sat, 2 Aug 2003 a gay participant posted to a queer
mailing list:)
<<
I agree that we need to watch the Christian Right very
carefully, and formulate an aggressive attack.
>>
(And I replied:)
(Note: all names mentioned herein--except mine--are
fictional, though the persons spoken of quite real. I
have a true story to tell:)
Here, here! My own little contribution this afternoon,
will be to show up in a "straight" bar, wearing my
rainbow sweater. Now this may strike most as being a
pointless, unnecessary project in oh-so- liberal San
Francisco a.k.a. "Gay Mecca". However, let me assure
everyone, that homophobia is alive and well here,
too...and getting increasingly belligerent at a rapid
rate. Not only has the enemy arrived at the gate...but
she has broken through and infiltrated every
neighborhood, in every strata of our local society. Nor
should anyone forget that-- while a relatively large
number of churches here are gay friendly--one must keep
in mind the words "relatively" and "gay friendly". MOST
of the churches in S.F. are indeed anti-gay...and I
think it's a large stretch to conclude that even 1/4 of
all churches in this city are pro-gay. And what do they
mean by "gay friendly". I know way too many heteros who
claim to be gay friendly, as in: "Some of my best
friends are gay..." while at the same time screaming at
me for discussing gay issues in THEIR bar...a bar which
is supposed to be "mixed", but which I recognize as
essentially "straight".
Now, I have discussed my queer activism, my street
counseling, my ongoing lawsuit with other residents
(against our property owner), women's rights, and
various other topics...only a third of which are
queer-related...but NONE of which include sports and
chics. And...not one of the various good people I have
held conversations with, were in the least upset about
my freely speaking on gay issues. Those who rose up
against me last night...were EAVESDROPPERS who want to
force their heterocentric dogma on me. Those are folks
who claim to have plenty of gay friends.
I was told by one nice lady, Sandi, that some guys were
complaining about my gay conversations...and she
advised me to tone it down. I told her that I couldn't
do that...to please point them out to me. NO WAY am I
going back in the closet to appease a bunch of
alcoholic, addle- brained heteros. (But she said they'd
already left, and she'd have to point them out to me
another day. So here I am, being warned of potential
violence yet DENIED any real description of what they
look like; who they are.)
To tell me to lower my voice to a whisper in a NOISY
bar--while others holler out to be heard--is way over
the top, and playing to homophobic idiocy. And, a
regular there, whose nickname is "Dirtbag", started
yelling at me that everything I talk about is "gay this
and gay that"...and that he's not homophobic, he has
plenty of gay friends. Then another guy, Mork, who is
the boyfriend of bartender Mila, said all that people
want is that I act "normal", and that plenty of gays
come to this bar...and he also has gay friends.
Mork continued to tell me if I were anywhere in the US,
talking like I'd do, I'd experience a lot WORSE than
some angry folks. And that you can't do anything about
Christian fundamentalists, you can't change them. (So I
asked, oh, is He a fundamentalist?" pointing to my
oppressor. Mork said "No." So I said, "Well then that's
a lousy example. Furthermore, you CAN do something
about fundies...such as confronting them on their turf,
and taking your stand.)
Well, ANOTHER guy chimed in--Native Amerikan named
"Cory"--bragged about how he stood up for his gay
brother while the rest of his large family rebuked him.
But that when he went with his brother to a gay bar in
The Castro, he said his brother just talked too much,
just talk, talk, talk, talk..."
So I cut him off, and said, "And what is the point of
all this? I don't see how this relates to anything
going on here against me, right now." So a woman friend
of his tried to block Cory from continuing more
prattling. Meanwhile, Mork was still standing over me,
trying to convince me that I need to act "normal"...so
I decided to pack up and leave, so I put on my jacket,
picked up my backpack, and said: "I really don't need
this. Don't worry, I won't be back."
Stepping out, Sandi, Cory, Pamela, and Mork circled me,
with Cory grabbing onto my arm. I said, "Look, I'll
find another place where I can have a nice time." Well,
they insisted that I should come back in, that that's
just one idiot (seems to be no mention of the veiled
threat that came to me from a concerned customer)...and
I shouldn't let it "get to me". Now, mind you...all
this going on right in the face of a rather large,
strong-looking bartender who remained MUTE through the
whole thing...when he COULD have told the drunk to back
off. And why didn't he? Probably because "Dirtbag" was
a longterm regular with money to burn.
This is not over...I know how these kinds of jerks
think. (And I'm not including the well-meaning--if
somewhat naive--new friends I have recently made
there.) So...I'm supposed to be scared of bringing up
any gay topic, eh? Well...that's who I am, dears! I
love my queer activism, and the many fantastic, true
tales I have to tell...and I never spoke with anyone
there who did not ENJOY listening, and sharing their
own true stories. So here I am, on the defense, against
both visible and invisible enemies.
Isn't it absurd that now, I could be putting my life in
danger, my merely showing up in a rainbow sweater? I'd
LOVE to have another sweater that says "gay gay gay"
all over it, in little words. Wouldn't that be too fun!
Isn't it absurd that such HOMOPHOBIA continues to hold
sway, even in so-called "mixed" straight/gay bars, in
good ol' liber "Gay Mecca?"
So what am I supposed to do to be "safe"...yet still go
to that venerable bar? Do not speak about any gay
topic? Do not wear any clothing, buttons or pins with a
pink triangle or other gay-related symbol or phrase?
Yes...and shut up and try to ENJOY heterosexism music
pumping from the jukebox (and from guest bands every
weekend) such as "Mama's Got a Squeeze Box" and "When a
Man Loves a Woman".
And another note: Women have it really lousy here,
too...and they put up with an awful lot in order to try
to enjoy the evening. Two examples I witnessed among
the debacle about my way-obviously GAY presence:
Cory acted sweet on Sandi, who accepted his approach,
expecting a nice hug. Instead, he forced a deep-throat
French kiss on her, and would have kept it up had she
not pushed him away. She made "yuuch" sounds in a
playful way, so as to make it clear (in a
non-confrontational way) that he's overstepping his
bounds.
Than a little while later, a musician who was going to
play later that night, presented a toy balloon whose
shape was complex, and which I didn't bother to
interpret. He handed it to Pamela, then I said, "Did
you make that balloon?" He said, "No"...than later
pointed out to Pamela that it depicts a monkey with an
erection. Now, I still didn't bother to look closely to
see if that really was the case...however, it did seem
to be what he said, if I concluded that it was being
held upside down. Noticing it was purple in color, I
chimed in: "Oh, its a GAY monkey, huh?" He stared at me
wierdly for a moment, during which time I spoke: "Well,
it IS purple, so excuse me for bringing it up."
To which the (obviously) str8 musician retorted: "I
don't believe in gay monkeys." Then walked into the
bar. Silly me, I wasn't quick enough for the perfect
comeback, which (with hindsight) I will now say:
"I guess you don't know about the Bonobos chimpanzees.
They're the only species of chimps that resolve
conflicts non-violent...by same- sex stroking,
fondling, and lots of hot sex. It was in the news last
years, and you can quickly find articles about the
Bonobos on any Internet search engine."
Anyways, I think it's tragic that some (read "too
many") straight males--of even the LIBERAL
persuasion--think it's cool to force their sex on
women, and hand them phallic statues and images. I
presume this is happening now, because a lot of str8
guys are freaking out over the gay issue being so
in-your-face these days, as the politics of sexual
minorities heats up (and spills over into a likely
civil war).
Oh, yeah, my new friends enticed me back in, finally,
and bought me a drink. But I'm sorry to say, the issue
is NOT resolved, and I guess more ugliness is to
ensue...assuming I return, and do not let some idiots
silence me. To the benefit of my friends, they rallied
around me, and one even wore my "I Bash Back" button.
Yet I think more could have (and should have) been
done: such as a firm reprimand against the
offender...instead of laying all the blame at my feet,
as if just being my friendly queer self were really the
problem after all. And of course...why didn't the
bartender nip it in the bud, when he was standing right
there while "Dirtbag" was hollering at me?
So..even when I want a break from human ugliness (in my
case by avoiding the gay bars, what with the intense
hard-drug addicts and extreme alcoholism...which
creates OTHER sorts of ugly scenarios to drive me
out)...controversy seems to swim around me no matter
what. I guess I should go back...though another part of
me says I don't have to prove anything, and no longer
showing up will have the needed impact.
However, I've decided to wear my rainbow sweater...all
white except for a horizontal rainbow band around the
upper arms and chest. And I guess I'll throw in the
pink dragonfly cloth pendant, and wear it as a
necklace. (Really, it's a refrigerator magnet from
Walgreens, which I creatively adapted.)
So I guess youse all would like to know WHICH bar this
is? Well, it can't be MOST of the straight
bars...because they are SOLIDLY homophobic...so it must
be one that is considered very mixed, gay- friendly,
and liberal. The bar is:
THE MUCKY DUCK
1315 9th Ave. (btwn Judah & Irving)
I will be there by 3:45pm (today, Sunday), expecting to
meet my new girlfriends, Sandi and Pamela, who will
show up at 4.
This is the same neighborhood ("Inner Sunset") where I
was not allowed to participate in an open mic session
at the Canvas Cafe. The guy running it, seemed nice at
first, and said I'd get on even though I signed up as
the 35th person. But he kept delaying me and delaying
me, pretending changes in the night's format.
However...he let the other poets on, and
musicians...just kept me hanging on till closing time,
tricking me into thinking I'd get on, when apparantly,
he never intended to in the first place...but got his
sadistic jollies by wasting my time. Yeah, I guess he
just couldn't handle it, that I signed myself on as
"Jehovah's Queer Witness". Jeez! What's a talented
faggot to do in Gay Mecca, when he winds up getting
black listed from even open mics at "liberal/mixed"
coffee houses and bars?
I invite other queers (and supporters) to join me for a
good time this afternoon...and help keep the 'phobes at
bay. Of course, if you've never met me, you'll still be
able to figure out which person I am...as I am all too
OBVIOUSLY gay (or so I would seem in some losers'
eyes).
P.S.: Imagine if I had my own humor/gossip column in
this or that gay rag. I don't think the BAR would allow
it, due to some hate e- mail sent me by their political
editor...who ALSO happens to be the current S.F. Police
Commissioner. Well! There are OTHER gay rags out
there...yet for some strange reason, they don't realize
what a great columnist I'd be for our community! So,
if others here would like to see me with some sort of
fun, regular column, contact these gay-media
venues...and don't stop at just newspapers. Obviously,
controversy is my middle name, and I am destined to use
it as a tool of empowerment for myself...and through
me, for ALL sexual minorities.)
This is ridiculous...the idea that I'd even be under
some sort of threat, merely for wearing a RAINBOW.
Well, I'll be there...and wouldn't at least ONE other
be eager to share (and witness) the adventure, too?
---
"Sodomy may be perfectly legal, but damn
it, it still hurts!" -Jehovah's Queer Witness
http://www.gay-bible.org/first_gig.htm
David Kaye
> Here, here! My own little contribution this afternoon,
> will be to show up in a "straight" bar, wearing my
> rainbow sweater.
Stop that! You'll give fags everywhere a bad reputation. The color
clash is a fashion travesty! I recommend the Pee Wee Herman look.
The 1960 look is very much in vogue right now.
> To tell me to lower my voice to a whisper in a NOISY
> bar--while others holler out to be heard--is way over
> the top, and playing to homophobic idiocy.
You're conviced that there's homophobia all over in non-gay bars, yet
my friend Jeff and I often meet in such bars to hear live music. (The
other night we were at an Irish bar in North Beach to hear the
legendary bluegrass band, Philboyd Studge.) We usually kiss when we
see each other. Occasionally, he has a friend come along and they two
of them get cuddly while listening to the music. We've never had a
problem, and have always been treated amicably.
> Then another guy, Mork, who is
> the boyfriend of bartender Mila, said all that people
> want is that I act "normal", and that plenty of gays
> come to this bar...and he also has gay friends.
Well, I've seen you, and you don't act "normal". You talk very
loudly, over the top of other conversations and you describe sex acts
and minutae about dicks. While that's certainly proper in gatherings
of people you know well, that certainly violates social norms when
done among strangers who aren't expecting to hear it and don't want to
hear it.
> So what am I supposed to do to be "safe"...yet still go
> to that venerable bar? Do not speak about any gay
> topic? Do not wear any clothing, buttons or pins with a
> pink triangle or other gay-related symbol or phrase?
Hell, I talk about cocksucking and past relationships and haven't had
any problems at all, but I only do this when I'm in a situation with
people I know or who expect to hear something like that. Just as I
don't like to hear guys talk about pussy licking or hear them scream
"Take off your top!" to women they don't know, I can certainly
understand why people don't want to hear certain kinds of gay talk in
certain environments.
I was at a party last night with people I mostly didn't know. I
managed to get in comments about past boyfriends, and one cocksucking
story and a come-back about masturbation. And while this would
normally have been inappropriate for such a party, when the people got
drunk and started talking about things sexual I knew it was fine to
drop a few lines here and there. There wasn't much sextalk, since
these are basically artiste types who make up some of the core of
Burning Man, so I didn't say all that much, either.
In short: It all depends on the circumstance.
> Cory acted sweet on Sandi, who accepted his approach,
> expecting a nice hug. Instead, he forced a deep-throat
> French kiss on her, and would have kept it up had she
> not pushed him away.
I don't want to ever go to that kind of place or party with someone
like that.
He sounds like some guy who has no social skills whatever. There are
plenty of pleasant people around without having to deal with people
like that.
> This is the same neighborhood ("Inner Sunset") where I
> was not allowed to participate in an open mic session
> at the Canvas Cafe. The guy running it, seemed nice at
> first, and said I'd get on even though I signed up as
> the 35th person.
He was politely trying to get rid of you without hurting your
feelings. Personally, I don't like that approach. I'd rather have a
person tell the truth up front, but most people decline to do that,
thinking it will mean less hurt all around to not confront the issue
directly.
I believe your reputation in open mics is getting around and people
are reluctant to put you on because what you're doing is alienating to
them. As I said before, you could become either the next Lenny Bruce,
or the next obscurity. It all depends on how you approach your
audience and the people who run the open mics.
I've been doing a little stand-up here and there myself, and I'm
reluctant to do most open mics because the stuff I talk about is very
sexual. I save it for the situations where I know it's appropriate.
Also, I try not to alienate the booker. I've been well-received so
far.
> "Jehovah's Queer Witness". Jeez! What's a talented
> faggot to do in Gay Mecca, when he winds up getting
> black listed from even open mics at "liberal/mixed"
> coffee houses and bars?
You start your own. That's what you do. That's what Bucky Sinister
did when he couldn't find the right venue for his spoken word stuff.
That's what JimBo Trout did when I couldn't find a bluegrass/oldtime
jam. That's what I did when I couldn't find a group of people to play
games with. That's what many people do when they can't find what they
want out there.
> P.S.: Imagine if I had my own humor/gossip column in
> this or that gay rag. I don't think the BAR would allow
> it, due to some hate e- mail sent me by their political
> editor...who ALSO happens to be the current S.F. Police
> Commissioner.
All you have to do is submit samples of your writing and tear sheets
of stuff you've already had published, and I'm sure you'll be
considered on a par with anyone else out there. The B.A.R. has been a
remarkably progressive newspaper in the past, and I'm sure that hasn't
changed. But, the B.A.R. is a good-sized paper now (35,000 press
run), so they're not going to take a chance on someone unless they
produce some writing samples and tear sheets.
> Well! There are OTHER gay rags out
> there...yet for some strange reason, they don't realize
> what a great columnist I'd be for our community!
What community is that? Why not send writing samples (3 different
columns exploring the range of your writing and a couple tears from
past stuff is usually good), and see what develops? Most gay
publications have a big turnover in writers because they move on to
paying/better paying jobs.
Or you can take Larry-Bob's approach and simply publish your own zine.
Likewise, when he saw there was a vacuum in gay comedy after Josie's
closed, he started QComedy.
> So,
> if others here would like to see me with some sort of
> fun, regular column, contact these gay-media
> venues...
Nobody's going to do that for you. You've got to do it yourself.
Being a star takes a lot of work, nearly all your own work.
Chief Thracian
> You start your own. That's what you do. That's what Bucky Sinister
> did when he couldn't find the right venue for his spoken word stuff.
> That's what JimBo Trout did when I couldn't find a bluegrass/oldtime
> jam. That's what I did when I couldn't find a group of people to play
> games with. That's what many people do when they can't find what they
> want out there.
I've been doing that for years, along with other programs. Including
street theater. What I am NOW attempting to do, is rally the queer
troops from their doldrums and fears. What I am doing represent the
VANGUARD of a whole NEW gay revolution. And HUMOR is part of it,
though not all.
You seem to be a few notches beneath me in the evolutionary scale. May
I suggest you actually READ what I'm describing, instead of knee-jerk
replies that lack even one grain of insight? Clueless is as clueless
does, I suppose...but all YOU'RE doing is accusing me of made-up
scenarios that couldn't be FURTHER from the experiences I now share.
You're a sound-byte man in a garbage can...full of echos and empty of
plan.
---
Lavender-Velvet Revolution
http://www.gay-bible.org/
Michael Thomas
> sfdavi...@yahoo.com (David Kaye) wrote in message news:<6b49c602.0308...@posting.google.com>...
This is really precious. Psychopath vs. Sociopath.
Best thing since Godzilla vs. Mothra.
--
Michael Thomas (mi...@mtcc.com http://www.mtcc.com/~mike/)
It's ironic: these old people are being kept alive by the
organs of the people they run over.
*Chief Wiggums*
David Kaye
> What I am NOW attempting to do, is rally the queer
> troops from their doldrums and fears. What I am doing represent the
> VANGUARD of a whole NEW gay revolution. And HUMOR is part of it,
> though not all.
Not much of a vanguard. I showed up at the bar to see how many people
you were going to muster for your cause. None of your vanguard showed
up. Nobody. And they people in the bar had a good laugh over your
4-page letter, especially "Cory", "Irene", and "Mork".
> I suggest you actually READ what I'm describing, instead of knee-jerk
> replies that lack even one grain of insight? Clueless is as clueless
> does, I suppose...but all YOU'RE doing is accusing me of made-up
> scenarios that couldn't be FURTHER from the experiences I now share.
I read what you wrote and made some suggestions as to how you might
actually make friends instead of enemies. It so happens that I hung
out at the bar for over an hour after you left. I had very nice
conversations with people in the bar, and when someone suggested that
you should "get AIDS and die" there were many in the bar who went to
the DEFENSE of gayfolk, saying that it wasn't a gay issue at all, but
about someone who was causing a disruption.
Oh, and after they passed the letter around for half an hour, they put
it aside and watched the Giants game. So, you got a half hour of
their attention, but most if it was laughter.
I think you have a lot to learn about socialization. It's possible to
make friends with people and get your point across without alienating
them. I'm an out gay/bi man, and have been since my 3rd year of high
school. I've seen little need for any confrontations, threats, or
ultimata. People will respond with respect when treated with respect.
David Kaye
>
> This is really precious. Psychopath vs. Sociopath.
Michael, dear, this isn't about you, so stop taking credit for it.
Dissident
> zekeol...@chiefthracian.mailshell.com (Chief Thracian) writes:
>
>>sfdavi...@yahoo.com (David Kaye) wrote in message news:<6b49c602.0308...@posting.google.com>...
>
>
> This is really precious. Psychopath vs. Sociopath.
>
> Best thing since Godzilla vs. Mothra.
Audience, meet Michael Thomas. He's not a psychiatrist.
Though he plays one on Usenet.
David Kaye
> Not much of a vanguard. I showed up at the bar to see how many people
> you were going to muster for your cause. None of your vanguard showed
> up. Nobody. And they people in the bar had a good laugh over your
> 4-page letter, especially "Cory", "Irene", and "Mork".
I got an email asking why I bothered to show up for such a thing.
Actually, it was on my way to Ocean Beach, and I was going to browse
the Le Video store nearby anyhow.
Chief Thracian
> I read what you wrote and made some suggestions as to how you might
> actually make friends instead of enemies
I rather suspect you are making this all up. Believe me, I have a LOT
to say about the pathetic behavior of some denizens of that bar. I DID
make several excellent friends, who ENJOYED my company, gay topics and
everything else.
But before I continue, you must PROVE to me that you read my grievance
print-out, which I presented to the bartender, before departing. The
first page has a DISTINCTIVE appearance that you simply CAN'T ignore
or forget, once you've seen it. So tell me: what was so unique about
the first page? If you can't tell me this, then you did NOT show up.
Furthermore: it is highly unlikely the bartender would jeopardize her
job by passing out what I wrote, to anyone there...let alone a
stranger. (But I HOPE she did, as others need to see it, esp. the
parts where I criticized the vulgar attitude of some males against a
couple of very nice female customers.)
P.S.: I have finally POSTED my grievance against the Mucky Duck on my
home page...and also on my writings section, where I will soon include
a PHOTO of that bar as seen from across the street...right under where
I state the address of that place. The web page for this is:
http://www.gay-bible.org/write/3_mucky.htm
But wait a coupla days before I have the photo posted.
David Kaye
> I rather suspect you are making this all up. Believe me, I have a LOT
> to say about the pathetic behavior of some denizens of that bar.
Nope. Many people accuse me of making things up. But, everything I
say is true. They just can't understand how I can do so many things
and be in so many places, but it's 100% true.
In this case, I was at the bar and you SAW me. I was wearing the
purple bandana and purple T-shirt, and you looked RIGHT at me. I was
shocked that you and I turned out to be the only people in the bar
wearing bandanas because I didn't want anyone to think we were
together, part of a bandana cult or something.
> I DID
> make several excellent friends, who ENJOYED my company, gay topics and
> everything else.
Those who were there the following day (the Native American guy, the
bartender, the various characters such as "Mork") didn't think of you
as particularly friendly or palatable. One of them said that you were
shouting loudly and annoying everyone.
I wasn't there that night, but at one of the open mics you were
definitely loud and annoying. Mike Martinez didn't particularly take
to you, either. I was wearing a hat that day, and again you looked
right at me.
> But before I continue, you must PROVE to me that you read my grievance
> print-out, which I presented to the bartender, before departing. The
> first page has a DISTINCTIVE appearance that you simply CAN'T ignore
> or forget, once you've seen it.
I never said I read the print-out. I read what you posted here. I
never asked for the print-out because (1) I wasn't interested, and (2)
they'd wonder why a newcomer to their bar was so interested.
I believe you had crossed stuff out and there were diagonal lines
through the top part of the text. Also, you changed the bartender's
name from her real name to the pseudonym, "Irene". Her real name was
visible under the cross-out, though, and she was VERY pissed about
that.
> Furthermore: it is highly unlikely the bartender would jeopardize her
> job by passing out what I wrote, to anyone there...let alone a
> stranger.
Oh, bullshit. They were passing your paper around and laughing at it.
The only impression you made was to make a laughingstock of yourself.
She wasn't risking her job.
What's funny about this whole thing is that the only other time under
the current owner that there has been any other weird situation turned
out to be another gay thing. I believe it was a gay "zap" from ACT-Up
or Queer Nation or some such a few years ago. So, rather than do
anything for GBLT civil rights, you've actually helped to set back the
movement a few decades.
After you left, one of the guys who came in to play pool (and
apparently also had been there the night before), said something like,
"Guys like him should get AIDS and die from taking it up the ass."
Way to go, bozo.
Also, I understand that you have lawsuits pending against 3 Castro
area gay bars. Once word gets around, nobody is going to want to
serve you.
Rich
wrote:
>
>Also, I understand that you have lawsuits pending against 3 Castro
>area gay bars. Once word gets around, nobody is going to want to
>serve you.
That's what process servers are for, DK. ;-}
Rich
Chief Thracian
> Well, I've seen you, and you don't act "normal". You talk very
> loudly, over the top of other conversations and you describe sex acts
> and minutae about dicks.
That is all TOTALLY untrue. You are like the other malicious souls who
SLANDER and DEFAME my character. It's an old game to harass and
silence gay people: by making such hideous claims. Well, I hope you're
happy to now be on my official list of slanderers.
What I DO talk about re. "gay" topics is my missing lover, and the
adventures we once had...and the ones I still have (if you believe in
ghosts, angels, etc.). I also talk about the street counseling I do
for my gay brothers, and our adventures. There is NEVER conversion
brought up by myself or others, that discusses anything that may be
construed as lewd.
I have many great stories to tell--some true, some fictional--that
come from my experience as a GAY activist. And I am no louder than
anyone else at a noisy bar...and I only share them with those who are
friendly to me, and ENJOY my tales, just as I enjoy theirs.
It all boils down to mean-spirited jerkwads who--if not
homophobic--are jealous of any unique person like myself, who has
ORIGINAL ideas and stories to share.
And of course when accused of poor behavior, as I am, other nasty
folks love to join in the mob attack. And THAT is what went on at the
Mucky Duck, and what IS going on (for the most part) in this thread.
Chief Thracian
> I wasn't there that night, but at one of the open mics you were
> definitely loud and annoying.
Oh? Do tell. In what way was I "loud and annoying"? On stage or off
stage?
Please be a little specific. If it was on stage...well, I DON'T use a
mic, I prefer to project my voice. Being "loud" in that case, is
necessary. And "annoying"? Hardly. I have ALWAYS had appreciative
audiences...with the sad occassional homophobe hating me. Too, too,
bad.
>Mike Martinez didn't particularly take
> to you, either.
Yeah, of course not. A devout Catholic who boils over the gills at my
mocking
religious zealots...just calling myself "Jehovah's Queer Witness" gets
him
going! Yet little Mikey INSISTS he's gay friendly. Do tell me more of
what Senior Martinez has to say about me. I could use the amusement.
>I was wearing a hat that day, and again you looked
> right at me.
Don't flatter yourself. I ALWAYS look at this or that audience member
to make contact. And since you showed up to at least ONE of my shows,
you know very well that the audience at large enjoys my acts...and
those who don't are very few, if even present.
> Oh, bullshit. They were passing your paper around and laughing at it.
> The only impression you made was to make a laughingstock of yourself.
> She wasn't risking her job.
They are silly goose.
> After you left, one of the guys who came in to play pool (and
> apparently also had been there the night before), said something like,
> "Guys like him should get AIDS and die from taking it up the ass."
> Way to go, bozo.
Yeah, like what HE said should never be criticised, eh? That's a
typical
comment by homophobes...who play the "I'm really gay friendly" game,
then
stab gay people (including gay friends) right in the back. Yet YOU
blame ME for
his ugly remark? HE'S the one who should be 86'd from mixed bars, not
me! In
fact, his kind should NEVER be allowed in ANY bar (or anywhere else
for that matter).
Yes, I've seen enough of Mucky Duck, to satisfy my suspicions: that
San Francisoc is FAR from the Gay Mecca it pretends to be...that the
ugliness
of homophobia lies just underneath a very thin skin of MOST
heterosexuals
in S.F....including those who claim to have gay friends.
And your very slanted remarks back at me, only server to AFFIRM my
conclusions
in this matter. So much for standing up for your gay brothers. Way to
go, bozo!
---
"Got Zeke?"
-Harvey Milk Advisory Board
http://www.gay-bible.org/
Chief Thracian
> Also, I understand that you have lawsuits pending against 3 Castro
> area gay bars. Once word gets around, nobody is going to want to
> serve you.
You "understand" something you just made up? MORE gossip, rumor, and
innuendo!
Can you say "defamation of character"...but if not, how about just
plain old "slander"?
What do I do about such negative gossip about me, behind my back? I
find away to take this ugly energy, and use it to my advantage. I can
see how all this bruhaha can add cachet and mystique to my reputation
as a controversial activist (and now, standup comic). So when I DO
have to step on any toes to get ahead, rest assured these toes will
belong to those assholes who have it coming to them.
But you can save your "ouch" for later, if you'd like.
---
"I will never abuse the Oval Orifice."
- El Presidente Zeke
www.gay-bible.org/index.html#prez
David Kaye
> Yet little Mikey INSISTS he's gay friendly. Do tell me more of
> what Senior Martinez has to say about me. I could use the amusement.
What, do you think you're the center of attention? He said very
little. He rolled his eyes, shook his head, and made a few comments.
Then he went on to talk about other things.
> Don't flatter yourself. I ALWAYS look at this or that audience member
> to make contact.
No, this was not during an act. I never go out of my way to call
attention to myself, but just because you didn't see me doesn't mean I
wasn't there.
> And since you showed up to at least ONE of my shows,
> you know very well that the audience at large enjoys my acts...and
> those who don't are very few, if even present.
Audience? When I've gone it was the other comics (and I use that term
loosely), and one or two hangers on. Hardly much of an audience if
you ask me.
> Yeah, like what HE said should never be criticised, eh? That's a
> typical comment by homophobes...
My point what not that he shouldn't be criticized, but the fact that
your outburst brought out the homophobia in him. But, you knew that.
Generally speaking, when they pool player made the anti-gay remark,
others in the bar told him either to shut up or told him he was out of
line.
> Yes, I've seen enough of Mucky Duck, to satisfy my suspicions: that
> San Francisoc is FAR from the Gay Mecca it pretends to be...
Anybody with half a brain could have seen that. It didn't take a trip
to a sports bar to find that out. Or were you living in a delusional
world?
> that the ugliness
> of homophobia lies just underneath a very thin skin of MOST
> heterosexuals in S.F....
I have not found *that* to be true. Most of my friends these days are
straight, a situation which came to be because of my deep involvement
in the local music scenes. While musicians might be a peculiar subset
of the population as a whole, I don't see any reason why they should
skew differently on the homophobia scale from any other group of
people.
I'm out. I've been out since high school. I don't deal with people
who won't accept me. I can't say that I've had any significant
problem dealing with any straight people. If anything I've had more
flak from gay guys and lesbians who are biphobic than straights who
are homophobic.
> So much for standing up for your gay brothers. Way to
> go, bozo!
I don't stand up for jerks, no matter what their orientation. I don't
know whether you're a jerk or not, but I've seen you act like one on a
couple occasions, so I'm not about to be supportive of you.
Chief Thracian
> What, do you think you're the center of attention? He said very
> little. He rolled his eyes, shook his head, and made a few comments.
> Then he went on to talk about other things.
So in other words, your bringing him up was irrelevant to the
accusations you hold against me (all hearsay).
> Audience? When I've gone it was the other comics (and I use that term
> loosely), and one or two hangers on. Hardly much of an audience if
> you ask me.
I don't think you even know what you're talking about...just hopping
on
the bandwagon of this little hate-fest against me, a very nice guy
BTW.
> My point what not that he shouldn't be criticized, but the fact that
> your outburst brought out the homophobia in him.
WHAT outburst? You STILL have not cited anything SPECIFIC about
anything
I've said or done, that you found offensive. All you did was listen to
the hearsay of alcoholic losers who are either (1) homophobic or (2)
jealous (or both)...and then spread the gossip further. Sounds like
you
are guilty of "(2)" above.
> Generally speaking, when they pool player made the anti-gay remark,
> others in the bar told him either to shut up or told him he was out of
> line.
Oh, I see. There WERE folks who defended me, who did NOT like the
attacks
upon me...yet YOU kept that from entering the discussion, until I
pulled
it out of you.
> Anybody with half a brain could have seen that. It didn't take a trip
> to a sports bar to find that out. Or were you living in a delusional
> world?
I didn't take a trip to any bar to find that out. I went, expecting to
find
a mixed crowd that was liberally friendly. Instead, I found a cabal of
lushes who run the show...along with a bunch of fairly decent regulars
who
are nonetheless too sheepish to stand up for what they know is the
right
thing to do.
> I don't stand up for jerks, no matter what their orientation. I don't
> know whether you're a jerk or not, but I've seen you act like one on a
> couple occasions, so I'm not about to be supportive of you.
Again, you give NO SPECIFICS. Surely, since you've SEEN me act like a
jerk
at least twice, you do REMEMBER the occasions, eh? So please, be
specific
and DESCRIBE the two incidents that I may know what the f*ck you're
talking
about. Otherwise, you go on record as spreading slander against me,
who is
one of the most decent people you'll ever meet.
As it now stands, I've proven all the hateful accusations against me
in this thread, to be HEARSAY and defamation of character...and
nothing of real substance. Do you actually ENJOY making a fool of
yourself in a public venue like this?
---
Lavender-Velvet Revolution
http://www.gay-bible.org
David Kaye
> Oh, I see. There WERE folks who defended me, who did NOT like the
> attacks upon me...
Believe me, nobody was defending you; they were defending gay folks in
general. The feeling in the bar was that you're a lunatic. Nobody
there hates you as far as I could glean; they just think you're weird.
> Instead, I found a cabal of
> lushes who run the show...
You go to a neighborhood bar and you expect to find what, cloistered
nuns? Are you *really* this stupid or are you trolling?
> Do you actually ENJOY making a fool of
> yourself in a public venue like this?
I didn't throw a 4-page missive at a bartender and storm out of the
bar; you did.
At first I found you amusing, because I thought you might have
interesting insights into the world, which is why I decided to go to
the bar and see the group of friends you sought to gather. If the
conditions felt hospitable, I would have introduced myself and
participated. However you brought no friends and you yourself weren't
amusing or clever, only annoying.
Nobody hates you. We just think you're weird, but not in a cute way;
in an annoying way.
The least you could do is wear a funny hat or something.