The B5 That Never Was
Zathrus
http://www.webcs.com/b5/neverwas.html
Jan
<<Any comments on this site?>>
Sure. Why worry about might-have-beens?
JMS has said that the story that got told was at least (quoting from memory
here) 85-90% of the story he started out to tell. I doubt that there are many
other TV producers who can say as much.
One of the amazing things about the B5 story is that Joe was able to write
around things like actors leaving and breaking bones and needing time off for
other projects and still tell his story.
In some ways, it may have even made for a better story. Case in point is the
episode where Claudia Christian broke her foot. JMS has said that he'd
originally planned for Ivanova to get out of the predicament by herself.
Instead, he had to write where Garibaldi is instrumental in her rescue.
Personally, I thought that that episode made Garibaldi much more 'real' to me.
Another was when Stephen Furst needed time off for another project. This
served to illustrate Londo's isolation which made him an even more tragic
figure.
Yes, I think that it would have been interesting to see the Sinclair character
evolve more onscreen. That's balanced out by my opinion that Lyta was a more
effective character than Talia. Either way, I appreciate the story that did
happen and can't worry too much over what might have been.
Jan
well, you did ask....:-)
David Williams
"Zathrus" <Izat...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:SjqP8.235506$cQ3.9124@sccrnsc01...
Yes, I would simply ask the site's author, "What's your point?"
OF COURSE changes were made along the way! His tone seems to imply that
this is some deep dark secret to all of us. So, he went to a tremendous
amount of trouble to enlighten us, but he's preaching to the choir.
It is said that certain rare artists are able to conceive their entire work
in their heads down to the most finite detail.
Eg. allegedly Mozart could hear every single note of an entire symphony in
his head before he ever put pen to paper. Beethoven, on the other hand, had
to struggle and fight with every bar of his music before he felt he had it
just right. Yet, I don't think anyone would deny the musical genius of
either of them. And MOST composers would give their eye-teeth to compose
just 1 symphony as good as any of Mozart's 43 or Beethoven's 9.
JMS has stated MANY times for the record that ideas and plots that he
originally conceived were changed along the way - sometimes due to unseen
pressures; sometimes for really stupid reasons; sometimes just as minor
concessions to the "money-men"; but just as often changes came about because
jms himself realized he had made a mistake, and/or certain characters or
story threads just weren't going anywhere, or gelling the way they needed
to.
But, he did something almost completely unprecedented in that he decided to
carry on a continuous dialogue with the show's fans before, during, and
after its production.
i.e. He respected his fans so much as to really listen to them and
constantly evaluate what he was doing as a result. Kind of like stand-up
comedy: YOU may think your joke is hilarious - but if the audience isn't
laughing, stop telling the joke.
Now, a caveat to that for the more reactionary types - jms works very hard
not to dumb down his writing. And I would NEVER accuse him of pandering to
the whims of the audience. On the contrary, my point is that he respects
his audience. And he understands the difference between legitimate artistic
integrity and self-righteous dogmatism. i.e. He is man enough to recognize
when something just ain't working.
And THAT'S where the power of strong creative control is great. When you
have a show written by committee or a revolving door of guest writers, it is
impossible to make hard decisions with characters and story threads. You
simply can't cut out the dead wood and make necessary changes, because no
one has the power to write a giant tachyon-axe into an episode that
permanently and fatally removes the head of a tedious, aggravating, and
thematically useless character like Wesley Crusher. (Whereas jms did away
with na'grath in VERY short order.) For a perfect case study, look at the
appalling writing decisions that accompanied Battlestar Galactica, or worse,
Galactica 1980.
In addition, I distinctly recall that JMS said on MANY occasions that he had
"trap-doors" for ALL his characters in case something went awry in their
development or the story's development, or simple nonsense like contract
disputes, or...? So, why is it a surprise that he had to use some. Also,
along the way he realized that certain characters would have to be trimmed
because there just wasn't enough time to fully develop some characters in a
real 3-dimensional way. So naturally the end product is going to look
different from the initial sketches.
(All this rant by way of avoiding actual work that I have to do before some
deadlines I have next Wednesday.)
So I repeat to Mr. Piniarski, "What IS your point?"
B5 was an incredible series that nevertheless went through a lot of changes
along the way - some smooth, some awkward. So, what! Do ya' think we
didn't notice? Life is like that sometimes. Sure, sometimes we may have
been disappointed and fussed a little, but we got over it and on the whole,
still enjoyed the series.
-David
BTW, he should be warned about living in glass houses: If his book "Saturn's
Rings" ever does get published, he'd better prepare himself for 1 of the 2
most common reactions in Sci-Fi fandom:
1. Excruciating critical scrutiny
2. Excruciating obscurity
Tough to say which is worse.
Christian McNeill
Well the site is very... inaccurate.
--
==========================
Christian McNeill
Email: r...@underground.com.au
Matthew Vincent
>Any comments on this site?
>http://www.webcs.com/b5/neverwas.html
Yeah, quite frankly I think the site is full of shit. The author is
obviously trying to get attention for himself by disparaging an
existing Sci-Fi show. I think it's a very dishonest and disrespectful
tactic. Among other things, the following line gives it away: "My name
is <name deliberately snipped>. I am a science fiction writer
myself..." (with the words "science fiction writer" underlined so you
can follow the link).
Matthew
Svetislav
was it Sinclair he saw "sleeping in light" at the end of the series, or was
it Sheridan as we could see?
David Williams <dwilli...@attbi.com> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
ALyP8.83644$6m5....@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
Bil
news:44aa4edb.02061...@posting.google.com:
>>Any comments on this site?
>>http://www.webcs.com/b5/neverwas.html
> Yeah, quite frankly I think the site is full of shit. The author is
> obviously trying to get attention for himself by disparaging an
> existing Sci-Fi show. I think it's a very dishonest and disrespectful
Jeez, give the guy a break! It's an *opinion*. Sometimes its fun to
speculate on what might have been. It's not as though there's much else
going on right now in the B5 world is there? I don't think the author was
being disrespectful or dishonest, on several occassions in the article he
mentions how much admiration he has for jms in creating the show, and how
he *did* deliver on his promises.
B5 is a unique situation in any event. Not only was it a unique show, we
as fans also gained a (sometimes unhealthy) level of inside knowledge on
its evolution through jms. The knowledge was great, insofar as it brought
show and fan together like no other show ever has (not even Star Trek
IMO), but I think it *was* a bit unhealthy in retrospect because its
difficult to enjoy & take a show at face value whilst knowing about all
the little pieces of broken glass jms crawled across carrying the
'elephant'.
One thing about the article that I did agree with was his assessment of
season 5. I'm not going to get into the 'season 5 was crap' debate,
because as far as I'm concerned there is no debate (saying that though, I
think that season 5 was a classic example of how too much inside
knowledge can ruin one's perceptions of a show). B5 was brilliant, end of
story. :-) *But* (and I have done this) it comes across as a very
different show if you watch seasons 1-4 then SiL. Not 'better' per se,
just different. It still works.
Anyway, all I'm trying to say is, he's only expressing an opinion. As am
I. Neither are threats to your own beliefs about the show. We all love
jms' work! :-) There's no need to go jumping up and down about it.
Cheers,
Bil
--
_
_ // Bil Irving | Email: *Private* |
\X/ Visions Perceived Software | Web: www.visions-perceived.co.uk/ |
... "Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of
dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender."
- Citizen G'Kar, 2261
Kathryn Huxtable
> "Zathrus" <Izat...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:SjqP8.235506$cQ3.9124@sccrnsc01...
> > Any comments on this site?
> >
> > http://www.webcs.com/b5/neverwas.html
>
> Well the site is very... inaccurate.
Not to mention badly written. I doubt this guy can write to a
publishable standard. And he can't tell the difference between "than"
and "then", nor can he spell "Sheridan".
I know English spelling is complicated, but people who aspire to write
should double check their work. Many of us are sensitive to these
things.
(I use a different standard to judge email and news postings, which
are written quickly. Please, for those of you who don't spell well for
whatever reason, don't take offense. None is intended. Unless you
write like that on your web site.)
-K
horizon
There are obvious factual errors. For instance, he claims General Hague was
introduced in Season 4, when he actually shows up fairly early in Season 2.
So, if he's wrong about stuff this basic, I wonder about the accuracy of the
rest.
Matt C
Kathryn Huxtable
> There's one question that i keep thinking about: When JMS planned
> the story, was it Sinclair he saw "sleeping in light" at the end of
> the series, or was it Sheridan as we could see?
I think it's pretty clear that he originally intended Sinclair to be
the leading actor throughout the series. But things change for many
reasons and this is not a problem. JMS has given (at least) two
different reasons for the change. I'm sure they are both right in
their way.
-K
Paul McElligott
That being said, I think it would have been interesting if a couple of
story arcs had played out with the original characters. It would have
been very effective to deal dramatically with the disappearance of
Catherine Sakai, rather than have Sheridan show up with his wife's
disappearance already a _fait accompli_.
Also, I have no idea if the story arc that JMS had planned for Ivanova
and Lyta for the 5th Season would have been the same one he would have
had if Talia Winters had still be around. But the dynamic of Ivanova
involved with Byron, with Talia as his loyal "disciple" would have
taken on a interesting dynamic, given Susan and Talia's previous
romantic involvement.
Again, I loved B5 the way it turned out. "Might have beens" aren't
very productive, but that doesn't mean they can't be fun.
Jim Royal
Vincent <war...@es.co.nz> wrote:
> Yeah, quite frankly I think the site is full of shit. The author is
> obviously trying to get attention for himself by disparaging an
> existing Sci-Fi show. I think it's a very dishonest and disrespectful
> tactic.
In what sense is the site in any way disparaging? It's a fan analysis.
There's nothing insulting about it, and much of what he says
(particularly about Sinclair's truncated story arc) is quite likely
true.
--
Jim Royal <jimr...@canada.com>
"Understanding is a three-edged sword"
http://JimRoyal.com
WhereNTear
> "Zathrus" <Izat...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:SjqP8.235506$cQ3.9124@sccrnsc01...
> > Any comments on this site?
> >
> >
> > http://www.webcs.com/b5/neverwas.html
> >
>
> Yes, I would simply ask the site's author, "What's your point?"
>
> OF COURSE changes were made along the way! His tone seems to imply that
> this is some deep dark secret to all of us. So, he went to a tremendous
> amount of trouble to enlighten us, but he's preaching to the choir.
I view the site as more of an apologia than criticism. William
Piniarski obviously appreciates how hard it was to maintain a cohesive
storyline for 5 TV seasons, and says as much several times on his
site.
I enjoy the open speculation myself. I have often wondered about some
of the forced direction changes in the plot and what JMS originally
had in mind, but by the same token, I am glad that the Great Maker
himself has kept quite about the original plan. I remember that when
I read some of Tolkien's early notes for Lord of the Rings it
detracted a bit from my appreciation of the story. It was sort of
like seeing how a magic trick was done.
A more extreme type of "what might have been" site is the fanfic site:
http://www.b5-dark-mirror.demon.co.uk/
What do you think of it? (warning, the final chapters aren't complete)
James Bell
some time during season one and grew from there. Since there was no
Sheridan at first, he couldn't have been the one at the end, either. It
turned out ok, though.
Jim
"Svetislav" <sv...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:aen35k$rfl$06$1...@news.t-online.com...
BAMMFrazer
most convincing arguments relate to the original intention of Sinclair to be
the one main protagonist:
-Catherine Sakai filling the role of Anna easily.
-The aging in War Without End... sure, they explain it well, but I just have
the feeling that when they filmed Babylon Squared, War Without End was
intended to mostly take place around the time of Sleeping in Light - and
that was why Sinclair looks older.
"At the End, Go To The Beginning" indeed - Sinclair could have covered the
same ground as Sheridan, and then jumped back in time at the end of the
series to avoid his premature death and to become Valin. True, that's a heck
of alot for one man to do, but the evidence convinces me that this was JMS'
intention at least at the very beginning - for maybe half of season 1 at
most.
But then again, who am I to say what JMS was thinking!
-BAMM
"Zathrus" <Izat...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:SjqP8.235506$cQ3.9124@sccrnsc01...
Dennis Francis Heffernan
|Sheridan was not planned from the absolute beginning. The idea came along
|some time during season one and grew from there. Since there was no
|Sheridan at first, he couldn't have been the one at the end, either. It
|turned out ok, though.
Eh, dunno about that.
"War Without End" happened more or less when it was supposed to (JMS let
slip the fact that we'd see the flip side of B^2 in season 3 before O'Hare
left). That pretty much means Sinclair wasn't going to be around for the
ending, so someone had to be stepping into his shoes.
Or you have to pull another character out of your ass to become Valen
and/or completely reinvent Sinclair's importance to the Minbari. This can be
done, of course, but at that point you're completely off the map, IMO.
Dennis F. Heffernan EQ: Venture Fletcher(E'ci) heff...@comcast.net
#include <disclaim.h> ICQ:9154048 CompSci/Philosophy
"It's better some times if we don't get to touch our dreams."
-- Harry Chapin
msa...@cc.hut.fi
: One thing about the article that I did agree with was his assessment of
: because as far as I'm concerned there is no debate (saying that though, I
: think that season 5 was a classic example of how too much inside
: knowledge can ruin one's perceptions of a show). B5 was brilliant, end of
: story. :-) *But* (and I have done this) it comes across as a very
: different show if you watch seasons 1-4 then SiL. Not 'better' per se,
: just different. It still works.
Actually I think he is quite wrong about season 5. I believe that
even if season 5 had always been coming, we would have seen the
telepaths and we would have seen Londos decline into servant of
the dark.
IMO the main difference for season 5 would have been that the
telepath story would have been started already on the 4th
season. Perhaps even during the Shadow-Vorlon war (and they might
have been useful at the time). That would have been consistent
with the way JMS likes to write - putting things up before hand
so he can slam you with a hammer. Regrettably that didn't happen
because of the way season five happened - something that jms had
pretty little control over.
I guess I'm a kind of funny critter, since I have never really
been interested in single episodes of B5 or any other series. In
B5 it was the story arc that mattered mostly, and I like the
ideas that were there for the 5th season.
Now I believe that 5th season is quite different from the seasons
2-4 mostly because jms had to create those plotlines during the
season, because he had closed all the major plotlines of previous
year and not opened others.
Simply put, the circumstances B5 was put in didn't allow for
better, which is a shame. Still I liked season 5 and wouldn't be
happy if it never was.
--
Mikko "One Ring to rule them all,
One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all
And in the Darkness bind them."
Barbara Krueger
did make his "opinions" seem as though they might be attention-
grabbing.
It is also interesting that he seems to know so much of JMS and
yet seems to have no knowledge that JMS stated (many times, I think)
that he always had an "escape hatch" for each character in mind at all
times.
This did seem to be flagrant self-promotion, not a legitimate B5 website
or debate. At least that is how it came across to me.
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Svetislav
James Bell <jam...@naxs.com> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
aenj21$qht$1...@solaris.cc.vt.edu...
Matt Ion
this one with 100% agreement. I'm sure there are plenty of other
mighta-beens and shoulda-beens that idle speculation could produce, and
plenty of other stuff Joe would have like to have done, or done differently,
that isn't quite so "obvious".
As it is, we got an incredible five years, one that its creator is satisfied
with. What more needs to be said?
"Jan" <jbon...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020617230310...@mb-ch.aol.com...
The Cat Who Walks By Himself
>I think it's a very dishonest and disrespectful
>tactic. Among other things, the following line gives it away: "My name
>is <name deliberately snipped>. I am a science fiction writer
>myself..."
Although not a very good writer, since he doesn't seem to understand basic
English grammar:
"...and know some of the things the writer of the B5 saga, JMS, might have
went through in the process of creating and maintaining B5."
Might have went through? Give me a break. And a decent writer.
WhereNTear
> Bil <bil_i...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> : One thing about the article that I did agree with was his assessment of
> : season 5. I'm not going to get into the 'season 5 was crap' debate,
> : because as far as I'm concerned there is no debate (saying that though, I
> : think that season 5 was a classic example of how too much inside
> : knowledge can ruin one's perceptions of a show). B5 was brilliant, end of
> : story. :-) *But* (and I have done this) it comes across as a very
> : different show if you watch seasons 1-4 then SiL. Not 'better' per se,
> : just different. It still works.
>
> Actually I think he is quite wrong about season 5. I believe that
> even if season 5 had always been coming, we would have seen the
> telepaths and we would have seen Londos decline into servant of
> the dark.
>
> IMO the main difference for season 5 would have been that the
> telepath story would have been started already on the 4th
> season. Perhaps even during the Shadow-Vorlon war (and they might
> have been useful at the time). That would have been consistent
> with the way JMS likes to write - putting things up before hand
> so he can slam you with a hammer. Regrettably that didn't happen
> because of the way season five happened - something that jms had
> pretty little control over.
>
As I understand it, most of Season 4 was written when Season 5 seemed
very unlikely, so the story line was compressed. Remember how intense
Season 4 was with both the end of the Shadow War and the retaking of
Earth? I've often wondered if the retaking of earth would have been
left until Season 5 if renewal hadn't been so unlikely. Also I wonder
if the Drak War would have been taken further if Crusade hadn't been
in the planning stages.
Pål Are Nordal
>
> Oh i see, thanks for letting me know guys
We all have our theories, some with more evidence backing them than
others. But the only one who knows for sure is jms, and he isn't talking.
David Williams
"The Cat Who Walks By Himself" <sol...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:aeo02p$pvs$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
Yeah, I noticed that too. But decided my rant was long enough without
critiquing his grammar.
-David
Bil
> Actually I think he is quite wrong about season 5. I believe that
> even if season 5 had always been coming, we would have seen the
> telepaths and we would have seen Londos decline into servant of
> the dark.
Yup, almost certainly.
> IMO the main difference for season 5 would have been that the
> telepath story would have been started already on the 4th
> season. Perhaps even during the Shadow-Vorlon war (and they might
> have been useful at the time). That would have been consistent
> with the way JMS likes to write - putting things up before hand
> so he can slam you with a hammer. Regrettably that didn't happen
> because of the way season five happened - something that jms had
> pretty little control over.
Well quite. Jms said once that 'Intersections' would have been the season
4 cliff-hanger had season 5's fate been determined earlier. That suggests
to me that the whole 'end of the Earth civil war' thing would have
happened more progressively over the first half of season 5. There would
probably have been some telepath setups during this as well.
Most people's problems with season 5 seems to be that there was too much
apparent 'filler' in the first half of the season, which is
understandable given that jms had to effectively build completely new
plotlines that he hadn't had time to introduce earlier. Watching season
4, then going straight into season 5 - it really is a dramatic change of
pace. I understand completely why it was done that way, and I have no
problem with that, it just takes you back a bit.
Another example: Orson Scott Card (my favourite author) wrote the
'Homecoming' saga, a tale over five volumes. Volumes 1-4 were great, they
built the characters beautifully, told a tale that was growing in
intensity all the time. I eagerly awaited each new volume and devoured
them in a couple of days. Then book 5 ('Earthborn') came out. It was
completely different. Set hundreds of years after the original 4 books,
all the original characters were long dead. It was still a great book,
but somehow didn't fit into the rest of the saga in quite the same way as
the others did. I feel much the same about season 5. It feels great on
its own, but as a part of the whole it suffers IMO.
I know others feel a similar way. Others disagree. Your mileage may
vary...
> I guess I'm a kind of funny critter, since I have never really
> been interested in single episodes of B5 or any other series. In
> B5 it was the story arc that mattered mostly, and I like the
> ideas that were there for the 5th season.
<Aol>Me too.</Aol>
> Simply put, the circumstances B5 was put in didn't allow for
> better, which is a shame. Still I liked season 5 and wouldn't be
> happy if it never was.
Well as I said, I agree mostly with the author of the website. Season 5
is a bonus. I enjoy it, but it can stand pretty much on its own. The real
meat of the B5 story had already been told by that point IMO.
It's a shame jms and B5 didn't get the recognition they deserved back
then, that way this discussion wouldn't even exist!
Cheers,
CaptJosh
> Also, I have no idea if the story arc that JMS had planned for Ivanova
> and Lyta for the 5th Season would have been the same one he would have
> had if Talia Winters had still be around. But the dynamic of Ivanova
> involved with Byron, with Talia as his loyal "disciple" would have
> taken on a interesting dynamic, given Susan and Talia's previous
> romantic involvement.
>
romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were merely friends.
Voxwoman
Paul McElligott wrote:
IIRC, didn't JMS say that Ivanova was going to be Byron's squeeze if she
was still in S5?
>
> Again, I loved B5 the way it turned out. "Might have beens" aren't
> very productive, but that doesn't mean they can't be fun.
>
>
(and I still enjoy teasing my brother in law, who's named John Sheridan,
and telling people to spell my last name "like the Captain on Babylon 5,
*not* the hotel chain" <G>)
-Wendy of NJ
James Bell
"Dennis Francis Heffernan" <heff...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:s700huo7jpfadfnh8...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 18 Jun 2002 11:19:18 -0400, "James Bell" <jam...@naxs.com> wrote:
>
> |Sheridan was not planned from the absolute beginning. The idea came
along
> |some time during season one and grew from there. Since there was no
> |Sheridan at first, he couldn't have been the one at the end, either. It
> |turned out ok, though.
>
> Eh, dunno about that.
Well I think it turned out ok. YMMV.
> "War Without End" happened more or less when it was supposed to (JMS let
> slip the fact that we'd see the flip side of B^2 in season 3 before O'Hare
> left). That pretty much means Sinclair wasn't going to be around for the
> ending, so someone had to be stepping into his shoes.
>
> Or you have to pull another character out of your ass to become Valen
> and/or completely reinvent Sinclair's importance to the Minbari. This can
be
> done, of course, but at that point you're completely off the map, IMO.
We don't know that War Without End happened the *way* it was supposed to,
though. It may have been written differently. (I can think of ways to pull
off WWE and keep Sinclair in the present. I can also think of ways to do
Season 4 and 5 without Sinclair or Sheridan and without introducing a new
character.) It isn't as if WWE was already written during season one. When
Sinclair left and Sheridan came in, the way the arc was to be presented
changed radically. I am sure that JMS got to tell his story but *the way*
the story got told was significantly different from the original plan. This
isn't a bad thing. Nevertheless it is what happened.
You don't have to agree. It's ok to be wrong. :)
Jim
Mike Van Pelt
Svetislav <sv...@t-online.de> wrote:
>There's one question that i keep thinking about: When JMS planned
>the story, was it Sinclair he saw "sleeping in light" at the end
>of the series, or was it Sheridan as we could see?
I think it must have been Sinclair originally. I think
that was the original reason that Sinclair taking B4 back
looked older, and that scar on his cheek would have been
from when he goaded Kosh into taking action against the
Shadows.
I think. Only JMS knows, and he isn't talking.
I really missed Sinclair, all through the rest of the
series. Sheridan was good, but something about Sinclair
really clicked with me, in a way that Sheridan never did.
But it was quite a ride for 5 years.
--
Have you noticed that, when we were young, we were told | Mike Van Pelt
that "everybody else is doing it" was a really stupid | m...@calweb.com
reason to do something, but now it's the standard reason | KE6BVH
for picking a particular software package? -- Barry Gehm
Raven Woman
romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were merely friends.>>>
There was certainly a suggestion of such.
1--The scene where Talia spends the night w/ Susan and wakes up in her bed.
2--Talia's (the "bad" Talia's) mockery of Susan, which implies that she used
Susan's love to get secrets out of her or generally to get closer to the
command staff.
3--Then there's the more explicit "I think I loved Talia," the "thing you've
never told anyone" which Susan shares w/ Delenn.
They aren't girlfriends, but there's certainly some sexual tension there,
and they do share a bed at least once. Maybe they were simply "bed friends"
but even that's a little more than "just friends." It's a sort of first
step to becoming lovers, in my book.
Of course, Talia's bad personality was "outed" by Lyta directly afterwards,
so we never saw what might happen.
Jenn
Claudia Mastroianni
: "Paul McElligott" <mcell...@cox.net> wrote in message news:c926b0f.02061...@posting.google.com...
:> involved with Byron, with Talia as his loyal "disciple" would have
:> taken on a interesting dynamic, given Susan and Talia's previous
:> romantic involvement.
:>
: Ok, what are you smoking and why aren't you sharing? There was no
: romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were merely friends.
JMS says otherwise. Watch it again. ;-)
Claudia
--
"here's a random factoid that probably isn't actually of interest to anyone
but me, but it's connected to this post somehow, like a brain fart off a
brainstorming tree. whoops, that was too much buildup, because it isn't
actually all that interesting. now i can't say it." -- Susannah Mandel
Richard Tibbetts
<capt...@phantos.subspacelink.com> wrote on Wed, 19 Jun 2002 12:57:48
-0700:
Certainly not my interpretation that they "were merely friends",
though as it was implied rather than explicit, YMMV.
--
Richard Tibbetts
http://www.primepeace.ltd.uk/
Raven Woman
> I really missed Sinclair, all through the rest of the
> series. Sheridan was good, but something about Sinclair
> really clicked with me, in a way that Sheridan never did.
>
> But it was quite a ride for 5 years.
>
Agreeing about Sinclair. Actually, I saw them in the "wrong" order, season
2-3 first, then missed part of four and all of five, then saw them all
through in sequence. I liked Sinclair better even *after* seeing Sheridan
first.
But--I don't think JMS just "made the best of it," I think there are
advantages to having Sheridan there for the Shadow War, even if he isn't the
cutie or the intellectual that Sinclair is.
1--With Sheridan, we get to see a "typical officer" getting educated as to
the complexities of the universe. Sinclair is already a mystic of sorts,
and seems like less of a "company man" than Sheridan. Sheridan's a relative
"outsider" when he arrives at the start of season 2--certainly he's not as
familiar w/ things Minbari--which makes his POV more interesting & useful in
some ways. He's Scully to Delenn's Mulder in some ways. Doesn't
necessarily want to believe.
2--With Sheridan, we get a contrast to the
Sinclair/Delenn/G'kar/Kosh/(need-I-go-on?) spirituality of the show.
Sheridan seems like a solid, uninquisitive agnostic, and an outgoing, "plays
well with others" guy, a regular ESTJ to their (let me guess here)
Delenn--INTP
G'kar--I/E NFJ
Kosh--INTJ
Sinclair--INTP
intuitive, introverted types.
I know Myers-Briggs may be a kind of stretch here, but I just want to
illustrate that he is *totally* a different personality, which shakes up the
command staff a bit. A nice contrast.
K nuff for now.
Jenn
PS anyone want to debate my Myers Briggs classifications?? That might be a
fun topic, and I'm not entirely happy w/ them.
Chibi-Light
<capt...@phantos.subspacelink.com> wrote:
>Ok, what are you smoking and why aren't you sharing? There was no
>romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were merely friends.
Wha? In, season 3 (I think) the command staff tells Delenn a secret
as part of the rebirth ceremony and Ivanova tells her that she loved
Talia.
CL
Andre Canis
> I've often wondered if the retaking of earth would have been
> left until Season 5 if renewal hadn't been so unlikely.
What's to wonder?
JMS speaks <http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/guide/084.html>:
| I don't usually comment on this, but...if I had known *with absolute
| certainty* that there would be a season 5, then season 4 would have
| ended with 418, "Intersections in Real Time." So you only pull 4
| episodes forward, really. You'll understand when you see it.
--
"I asked mom if I was a gifted child... she said they certainly
wouldn't have *paid* for me."
-- "Calvin and Hobbes", Bill Watterson
James Bell
"CaptJosh" <capt...@phantos.subspacelink.com> wrote in message
news:aeqn90$8srtk$1...@ID-107133.news.dfncis.de...
You're joking, right? When were they friends? They fought each other all
the time and then had a sleepover.
Jim
Voxwoman
CaptJosh wrote:
go watch the eps again... there was a kiss that wasn't onscreen, and
Talia's touching the empty spot in the bed next to her... It's the
episode where Lyta exposes Talia's alternate personality and she's off
the show... Susan and Talia were more than friends.
-Wendy of NJ
>
horizon
> but somehow didn't fit into the rest of the saga in quite the same way as
> the others did. I feel much the same about season 5. It feels great on
> its own, but as a part of the whole it suffers IMO.
When it aired, Season 5 suffered from a audience perspective since the
climax of the series had already occurred in our minds, with the resolutions
of the Shadow War & the Earth Civil War. Anything that came afterwards had
to feel like an letdown. Seen now in retrospect, Season 5 does have it own
logic and narrative power -- even if elements of it are completely out of
sync. I guess, for me, the real problems in Season 5 are things like the
telepaths' clothing and personality affectations, which do seem very
specifically tailored to appeal to a certain viewer demographic that perhaps
TNT was urging JMS to court. If you compare the dress & mannerisms of the
telepath resistance members from Season 2 to this new group from Season 5,
the contrast is all too apparent. Certain elements of the show appeared, in
least in my mind, to have changed and become much more formulaic. That
said, once Bryon becomes "toast" and the telepath's disappear from the
scene, the show begins to regain its form. Obviously, if the uncertainty
around the series cancellation were not a factor, I have no doubt that
Seasons 4 & 5 would have flowed a bit differently. Personally, I could have
done without the Telepath saga altogether, and would have preferred to see
JMS resolve the loose ends around Sheridan's & Delenn's appearance in
Londo's future (as foreshadowed in WWE) in Season 5...
Matt C
C W CHAN
>Kosh--INTJ
Cool!, that makes me Kosh-like. *grin*
Chuen Chan c.c...@uq.net.au
---------------------------------------------------------------------
'You can prove anything you want by coldly logical reason - if you pick
the proper postulates... Postulates are based on assumption and adhered
to by faith. Nothing in the Universe can shake them.' I. Asimov
WRWhite963
>Wha? In, season 3 (I think) the command staff tells Delenn a secret
>as part of the rebirth ceremony and Ivanova tells her that she loved
>Talia.
>
Ivonava says "I think" she did, in which case it was always my assumption that
it was never brought to fruition. An asymptotic relationship (always
approaching, never arriving...)
WRW
CaptJosh
John R. Campbell
>1--With Sheridan, we get to see a "typical officer" getting educated as to
>the complexities of the universe. Sinclair is already a mystic of sorts,
>and seems like less of a "company man" than Sheridan. Sheridan's a relative
>"outsider" when he arrives at the start of season 2--certainly he's not as
>familiar w/ things Minbari--which makes his POV more interesting & useful in
>some ways. He's Scully to Delenn's Mulder in some ways. Doesn't
>necessarily want to believe.
Sheridan was considered a "solid" officer and complete RA
("Regular Army") type that Clark's control freaks would want
to replace Sinclair with; They didn't catch on (until too
late) that their "tool" was more autonomous and had a mind
(and soul) of it's own.
Clark wanted to honk off the Minbari (remember, he was already
unhappy with 'em since he was dealing, albeit indirectly, with
the Shadows- who knew the Minbari were aligned with those
"Lords of Order" the Vorlons.
Sinclair had depth and curiosity and inquisitiveness that was
too easily recognized while Sheridan wasn't recognized as
having these traits- but had them in spades.
Of course there was _nobody_ on the series (excepting perhaps
the Vorlons...) who wasn't dysfunctional in some way- it's
just that one's weakness can provide a core strength, giving
a person a place to stand.
Something to google for: BlackAdderlon 59
--
John R. Campbell Speaker to Machines so...@jtan.com
- As a SysAdmin, yes, I CAN read your e-mail, but I DON'T get that bored!
Disclaimer: All opinions expressed above are those of John R. Campbell
alone and are seriously unlikely to reflect the opinions of
his employer(s) or lackeys thereof. Anyone who says
differently is itching for a fight!
Kerry Casey
> >"CaptJosh" <capt...@phantos.subspacelink.com> wrote:
> >>"Paul McElligott" <mcell...@cox.net> wrote:
> > >>jbon...@aol.com (Jan) wrote:
> <snip>
> >> Also, I have no idea if the story arc that JMS had planned for
Ivanova
> >> and Lyta for the 5th Season would have been the same one he would
have
> >> had if Talia Winters had still be around. But the dynamic of
Ivanova
> >> involved with Byron, with Talia as his loyal "disciple" would have
> >> taken on a interesting dynamic, given Susan and Talia's previous
> >> romantic involvement.
> >
> >Ok, what are you smoking and why aren't you sharing? There was no
> >romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were merely friends.
>
> You're joking, right? When were they friends? They fought each other
all
> the time and then had a sleepover.
>
>
The first time through, I never saw the "tension" between Talia and
Susan as anything other than friends. It's not until I read the
newsgroup that I realised that there was an understated attraction
between them. However, when showing B5 to a cousin who'd never seen it
and knew nothing of it, after the first few scenes between Susan and
Talia, she said "Hah, lesbian love interest!"
Kerry
--
Kerry Casey
kca...@bom.gov.au
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
David Williams
"horizon" <mcarn...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:iCjQ8.29131$QD2.6...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
My concurring opinion is that the perceived weaknesses in S5 are merely due
to the fact that it was too short and left us hanging. We all knew from day
1 that it was projected to be the final season, regardless of what happened,
so our expectations were probably ramped up a little too high. jms really
didn't have enough time to wrap everything up for us. He could only
tantalize us by telling us the first chapter of the telepath war. The same
with Londo's story, etc. Though we already know the ultimate fate of most
of the central characters, we didn't get to hear those STORIES.
On the one hand, the gist of the hanging story threads is that the story
never really ends. There's always more to tell. ie. There's no such thing
as "Happily ever after..."
But based on that, I'm really left with the feeling that he was hedging his
bets and leaving LOTS of open room for new series, feature films,
theatricals, etc.
The subsequent lack of commercial success of the franchise makes me believe
we might not see anymore B5. Let's face it, there's apparantly just not
enough of us to entice the advertisers into paying for the show or the
programmers to put it on. So we'll just have to hope that someday jms is
willing to open up and reveal what his story plans were.
Ultimately I try not to think about it too much, to realize that blithering
idiots on Jerry Springer is a bigger money-maker than well-written Sci-Fi; I
just get too depressed.
Was expecting to move, probably not going to happen soon so will finally
spring the extra $ to get Showtime.
Anxious to finally check out Jeremiah. Hope I'm not too late.
-David
WRWhite963
>climax of the series had already occurred in our minds, with the resolutions
>of the Shadow War & the Earth Civil War. Anything that came afterwards had
>to feel like an letdown. Seen now in retrospect, Season 5 does have it own
>logic and narrative power -- even if elements of it are completely out of
>sync. I guess, for me, the real problems in Season 5 are things like the
>telepaths' clothing and personality affectations, which do seem very
>specifically tailored to appeal to a certain viewer demographic that perhaps
>TNT was urging JMS to court.
The thing that strikes me the most about season 5, at least until the focus
shifts to the Centauri issue, is that there is a relative lack of energy to
everything - some of the telepath episodes seemed to even duplicate themselves
so much, they could have easily (and I think for the better) have been
condensed.
This is all amplified by the filmmaking changes - more set pieces, lower budget
- leading to a less dynamic feeling about the show. Denoument is fine for a
story, but usually doesn't take up the last 1/5th of the book - the last few
episodes would have sufficed for wrapup.
That said, a few episodes did stand out, and feel almost like a return to form.
Especially when the Drazi are confronted about their hypocrisy. Lyta's
transformation into someone you'd rather not know seemed erratic - if the
telepath arc had been wrapped up more quickly, establishing the trauma of
seeing Byron's "sacrifice" earlier on, it would have left more time to show
Lyta's challenges in holding together the resistance, with more opportunities
for her to butt heads with the Alliance, and to be further alienated, leading
more naturally to Lyta as we see her in Objects in Motion. It would have also
added more to the feeling that she was being overwhelmed by a succession of
incidents she wasn't prepared for, which again would have lent some emotional
credence to her transformation.
Hindsight's 20-20, though (although not always:-)
WRW
Voxwoman
Susan in the context of Talia's sleeper personality, Talia is definitely
putting the moves on Susan, trying to get close to her from almost day
one. Although it's interesting... if she wanted to get close to the top
of the command structure, she could have definitely had an easier target
in Garabaldi...
-Wendy of NJ
John W. Kennedy
> go watch the eps again... there was a kiss that wasn't onscreen,
That, I'm afraid, is an urban myth. It's just bad shot continuity.
But JMS and both the actresses have said quite plainly that there
was an affair between the characters.
--
John W. Kennedy
Read the remains of Shakespeare's lost play, now annotated!
http://pws.prserv.net/jwkennedy/Double%20Falshood.html
Adam Canning
> And actually, when you view *all* of the interactions between Talia and
> Susan in the context of Talia's sleeper personality, Talia is definitely
> putting the moves on Susan, trying to get close to her from almost day
> one. Although it's interesting... if she wanted to get close to the top
> of the command structure, she could have definitely had an easier target
> in Garabaldi...
Garibaldi has a tendency to communicate less with the women in his life
than with his enemies.
--
Adam
Once you have pulled the pin, Mr Nova Bomb is no longer your friend.
Zathrus
Still think that Lise would have, or memory of her, would not let him. But
then like most men it doesn't stop him from looking.
"Voxwoman" <voxw...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3D131D18...@hotmail.com...
Ryan Pearman
> romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were merely friends.
Yikes.... unlike that bed scene just before Talia goes Postal, or Ivanova's
confession to Delenn......
--Ryan
Lucas Bachmann
and accept that the Rangers movie was tedious, aggravating, and
thematically useless?
Lucas
David Williams wrote:
>
> But, he did something almost completely unprecedented in that he decided to
> carry on a continuous dialogue with the show's fans before, during, and
> after its production.
> i.e. He respected his fans so much as to really listen to them and
> constantly evaluate what he was doing as a result. Kind of like stand-up
> comedy: YOU may think your joke is hilarious - but if the audience isn't
> laughing, stop telling the joke.
>
> Now, a caveat to that for the more reactionary types - jms works very hard
> not to dumb down his writing. And I would NEVER accuse him of pandering to
> the whims of the audience. On the contrary, my point is that he respects
> his audience. And he understands the difference between legitimate artistic
> integrity and self-righteous dogmatism. i.e. He is man enough to recognize
> when something just ain't working.
>
> And THAT'S where the power of strong creative control is great. When you
> have a show written by committee or a revolving door of guest writers, it is
> impossible to make hard decisions with characters and story threads. You
> simply can't cut out the dead wood and make necessary changes, because no
> one has the power to write a giant tachyon-axe into an episode that
> permanently and fatally removes the head of a tedious, aggravating, and
> thematically useless character like Wesley Crusher. (Whereas jms did away
> with na'grath in VERY short order.) For a perfect case study, look at the
> appalling writing decisions that accompanied Battlestar Galactica, or worse,
> Galactica 1980.
Raven Woman
> transformation into someone you'd rather not know seemed erratic - if the
> telepath arc had been wrapped up more quickly, establishing the trauma of
> seeing Byron's "sacrifice" earlier on, it would have left more time to
show
> Lyta's challenges in holding together the resistance, with more
opportunities
> for her to butt heads with the Alliance, and to be further alienated,
leading
> more naturally to Lyta as we see her in Objects in Motion. It would have
also
> added more to the feeling that she was being overwhelmed by a succession
of
> incidents she wasn't prepared for, which again would have lent some
emotional
> credence to her transformation.
>
> Hindsight's 20-20, though (although not always:-)
>
> WRW
>
Just so--I *love* the Londo plotline in season 5, but I wish the telepath
plotline had told us less about the teeps on-station and their woes and more
about the doings of Lyta/Garibaldi. All the right elements for a good
action-plot were there: Edgars Industries, Bester, Lyta, Garibaldi (plus
his mind-block against revenge), etc. Also G'kar and his need to escape his
"followers." If the deals between (1) Lyta and Garibaldi and (2) Lyta and
G'kar had gone down sooner, we could have seen some action!!
Byron always reminded me of something my mother used to say when I was 14
years old and dragging around the house whining: "All over the place like a
wet quilt."
Jenn
Matthew Vincent
>>Yeah, quite frankly I think the site is full of shit. The
>>author is obviously trying to get attention for himself by
>>disparaging an existing Sci-Fi show. I think it's a very
>>dishonest and disrespectful...
>
>Jeez, give the guy a break! It's an *opinion*.
An opinion that's presented as fact, for the most part.
>Sometimes its fun to speculate on what might have been.
That's not the part that I have a problem with. He's doing a lot more
than just speculating here.
>I don't think the author was being disrespectful or dishonest,
His motives were dishonest, and many of his criticisms were clearly
inaccurate, and just thrown in for the sake of criticising.
>on several occassions in the article he mentions how much
>admiration he has for jms in creating the show,
Of course he did. If he just made a whole bunch of criticisms with no
praise, he would look unprofessional. His goal was to pitch his
criticism at just the right level to attract controversy, and thus
advertise himself and his own work in the process.
>B5 is a unique situation in any event. Not only was it a unique
>show, we as fans also gained a (sometimes unhealthy) level of
>inside knowledge on its evolution through jms.
I disagree that we've gained an unhealthy level of inside knowledge.
There may have been occasional slippages, but overall I think that the
benefits of this arrangement have outweighed the drawbacks.
>One thing about the article that I did agree with was his
>assessment of season 5. [...] *But* (and I have done this)
>it comes across as a very different show if you watch
>seasons 1-4 then SiL.
Yeah, I've tried watching it that way too.
>Not 'better' per se, just different. It still works.
Yeah, which shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. JMS always said that
season 5 was going to be a bit different, IIRC. The whole atmosphere
was made different in some ways. The important parts of the show were
basically covered in seasons 1-4. None of this constitutes any kind of
amazing revelation.
>Anyway, all I'm trying to say is, he's only expressing an opinion.
He's doing more than that.
>As am I.
You, I believe. :)
>Neither are threats to your own beliefs about the show.
That wasn't my concern. I don't mind reasoned criticisms of the show,
even if I disagree with them. Taken by itself, I don't mind people
engaging in self-promotion, either (we all do that at times, myself
included). However, I *do* have a problem with people promoting
themselves in a way that unfairly puts down someone else's work in the
process. Also, some of his criticisms were of a fairly personal
nature, and were quite false. For instance, he said that JMS was
partially at fault over CC leaving. He also said that JMS has publicly
stated that he intends to post less to fans since this incident. This
is also quite false; JMS has just been very busy lately, and he has
praised fans for our patience during his busy times.
Now, in hindsight perhaps my choice of language wasn't entirely
necessary. I was just feeling angry with what he was trying to do, and
so I wanted to push things in the other direction. However, I still
stand by the overall semantic content of my original post. I'm not at
all impressed by this guy's motives or some of his comments.
Matthew
Andrew Petrarca
> This is worse than the K/Sers in Star Trek fandom.
You have GOT to be kidding. No it's not.
--
Bitwise, Andrew. &
Matthew Vincent
>[Talia and Ivanova] aren't girlfriends, but there's certainly
>some sexual tension there, and they do share a bed at least
>once. Maybe they were simply "bed friends" but even that's a
>little more than "just friends." It's a sort of first step to
>becoming lovers, in my book.
Usually, depending on the circumstances. But in this particular case,
it seems fairly clear that there's some kind of romantic/sexual
involvement between Talia and Ivanova. Being "bed friends", i.e.
starting with cuddling in bed together without having sex, is IMO a
really nice way to start a relationship (using "relationship" in the
loose sense, i.e. any romantic relationship, not necessarily a primary
one). It seems rather difficult to arrange things that way, though.
IME it's harder to be "bed friends" first with a different-sex partner
than it is for two men, and I'd guess that it would also be easier for
two women than for a man and a woman. This probably just reflects how
society is at the moment, at least largely.
Matthew
Jim
>From the http://typelogic.com/intj.html website it states the following for
INTJ's,
"Perhaps the most fundamental problem, however, is that INTJs really want
people to make sense"
Perhaps we need to come up with a whole new way of personality testing since
the one thing you can say about the Vorlon is that they never make any sense
themselves so how they expect other people to is beyond me! Everything else
fits though.
Jim
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.371 / Virus Database: 206 - Release Date: 13/06/2002
Jim
>From http://typelogic.com/intp.html it states:
<quote>"A major concern for INTPs is the haunting sense of impending
failure. They spend considerable time second-guessing themselves.".<unquote>
When Delenn decides on a course of action she follows it through to the end
(eg. Drac attack, Minbari civil war, and throughout 'In the Beguinning).
<quote> An INTP arguing a point may very well be trying to convince himself
as much as his opposition. In this way INTPs are markedly different from
INTJs, who are much more confident in their competence and willing to act on
their convictions.<unquote>
Again in her dealings with the Grey Council and other major speeches I'd say
she comes across more as an INTJ than INTP.
Some reasons are perhaps:
1. The whole Minbari culture are very much like an earlier version of the
Vorlon.
2. Can we expect Alien personalitys to mirror the personality types we
define for ourselves, and has JMS written them in such ways? Really clevor
if he has, but then again we already know that!
3. How easy is it write a charactor that does not fit in to a 'standard'
personality type? Could such a charactor exist in real life?
As I neither a writer nor behavoural scientist I can't tell you but it would
be very interesting to hear other peoples views.
Raven Woman
>>>>This probably just reflects how
society is at the moment, at least largely.>>>
Matthew, you've hit on a great problem. In the B5 timeframe, presumably,
some social mores have changed (think about the difference between 20th
century and 18th century people!). Along with the change in customs, the
ways of "signaling" behavior/intent/etc have probably also changed. But to
"show" the story, the author has to use "signals" that people here-and-now
will recognize. A real challenge for the storyteller.
Assume, hypothetically, that in B5 time, it's common for same-sex friends to
share a bed (without sex) to express the warmth-extent of their friendship.
Then, you want to give just a "hint" that Talia/Susan have become such close
friends that they decide to share a bed? How do you do that?
1--show a brief bedscene (like the one in the ep) and risk the viewers
thinking "sex"!!
OR
2--introduce a lot of narrative explanation for the new custom
Neither is ideal.
If you want to assume a LOT of cultural drift, then the more burdensome
discussion you have to introduce, and the less freely you can
"suggest"things by a glance, a facial expression, an empty bed, etc etc etc.
Because the viewers won't know what's being "suggested."
Think how much narration there is to "explain" teep
culture/customs/relations with the rest of society. We have to be told
about the gloves, about their rules, about sex for teeps, etc. JMS does it
well, but it means that he can't just "hint" at nuances of teep behavior
very well.
So unless we got background explanations (which we didn't) I guess we should
assume that sex relations and courtship rituals are about the same in B5
time and now.
Jenn
The Nuclear Marine
"CaptJosh" <capt...@phantos.subspacelink.com> wrote in
news:aeqn90$8srtk$1...@ID-107133.news.dfncis.de:
> "Paul McElligott" <mcell...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:c926b0f.02061...@posting.google.com...
>> jbon...@aol.com (Jan) wrote in message
>> news:<20020617230310...@mb-ch.aol.com>...
> <snip>
>> Also, I have no idea if the story arc that JMS had planned for
>> Ivanova and Lyta for the 5th Season would have been the same one he
>> would have had if Talia Winters had still be around. But the dynamic
>> of Ivanova involved with Byron, with Talia as his loyal "disciple"
>> would have taken on a interesting dynamic, given Susan and Talia's
>> previous romantic involvement.
>>
> Ok, what are you smoking and why aren't you sharing? There was no
> romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were merely friends.
>
Hmm, let's see, Talia rolls over and notices Ivanova is not next to her in
bed. Or maybe I'm reading too much into that scene. Although jms said
they did not film a kissing scene, he did not deny they had something more
than friendship going on (he may have said more than that but I'm too tired
to look up the references).
Quit advocating drug use, you'll get the alcohol and tobacco companies mad
at you.
Nuke - 198 weakling
--
Listen to the Black Atheist Avenger: www.InfidelGuy.com
Atheist Radio on the Internet: www.AtheistNetwork.com
"Potential is nothing if not realized." Charles Applin
The Nuclear Marine
where...@netscape.net (WhereNTear) wrote in
news:fe8c080f.02061...@posting.google.com:
> msa...@cc.hut.fi wrote in message news:<aepbtl$6jh$1...@nntp.hut.fi>...
>
> As I understand it, most of Season 4 was written when Season 5 seemed
> very unlikely, so the story line was compressed. Remember how intense
> Season 4 was with both the end of the Shadow War and the retaking of
> Earth? I've often wondered if the retaking of earth would have been
> left until Season 5 if renewal hadn't been so unlikely. Also I wonder
> if the Drak War would have been taken further if Crusade hadn't been
> in the planning stages.
>
>
That would be a yes. Jms stated he had originally wanted intersections in
real time to be the season 4 finale. Ending on such a downer would make a
nice cliffhanger. The retaking of Earth would be 6 episodes into season 5.
I like the idea of introducing the telepath colony mid season 4 with its
conclusion in season 5. This would allow a better and less forced approach
to the storyline.
If any maniac ever tries to novelize the Babylon 5 story, I wonder if
Warner Brothers would allow a smoother approach such as that or a strict
adherence to the TV series. Perhaps, as Babylon 5 is begging to be made
into a 5 part novel.
Nuke - 198 pound weakling
The Nuclear Marine
war...@es.co.nz (Matthew Vincent) wrote in
news:44aa4edb.02062...@posting.google.com:
> Bil <bil_i...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>>Yeah, quite frankly I think the site is full of shit. The
>>>author is obviously trying to get attention for himself by
>>>disparaging an existing Sci-Fi show. I think it's a very
>>>dishonest and disrespectful...
>>
>>Jeez, give the guy a break! It's an *opinion*.
>
> An opinion that's presented as fact, for the most part.
>
What? The site quotes many of the postings jms himself stated in this
newsgroup. It treated the actions of all parties with respect throughout
the article. It was a much better treatment the the unofficial guide to B5
part 2 which stated opinionated articles quite a few too many times.
>>Sometimes its fun to speculate on what might have been.
>
> That's not the part that I have a problem with. He's doing a lot more
> than just speculating here.
>
Mayhaps I missed something, his article itself is title what might have
been. That clearly states all that follows is speculation. He backs it up
with acts within the show and a little common sense. Where did this guy
show otherwise?
>>I don't think the author was being disrespectful or dishonest,
>
> His motives were dishonest, and many of his criticisms were clearly
> inaccurate, and just thrown in for the sake of criticising.
>
Again, where? And where were the criticisms? He seemed to go out of his
way to complement all involved even when the person was the actress playing
Talia Winters (can't say her name, just too much pain)
>>on several occassions in the article he mentions how much
>>admiration he has for jms in creating the show,
>
> Of course he did. If he just made a whole bunch of criticisms with no
> praise, he would look unprofessional. His goal was to pitch his
> criticism at just the right level to attract controversy, and thus
> advertise himself and his own work in the process.
>
Well, I just read his article, nothing else that was provided or
hyperlinked. What was the criticism by the way?
>>B5 is a unique situation in any event. Not only was it a unique
>>show, we as fans also gained a (sometimes unhealthy) level of
>>inside knowledge on its evolution through jms.
>
> I disagree that we've gained an unhealthy level of inside knowledge.
> There may have been occasional slippages, but overall I think that the
> benefits of this arrangement have outweighed the drawbacks.
>
It's true. We get dead certainty that Keifer is dead, Lyta and Lennier
will die, Along with confirmations in many episodes that were somewhat
vague in the aired ep. Good sometimes but you are left with tunnel vision
at points where you can only quote a jms post instead of backing up an
opinion with an episode itself.
>>One thing about the article that I did agree with was his
>>assessment of season 5. [...] *But* (and I have done this)
>>it comes across as a very different show if you watch
>>seasons 1-4 then SiL.
>
> Yeah, I've tried watching it that way too.
>
>>Not 'better' per se, just different. It still works.
>
> Yeah, which shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. JMS always said that
> season 5 was going to be a bit different, IIRC. The whole atmosphere
> was made different in some ways. The important parts of the show were
> basically covered in seasons 1-4. None of this constitutes any kind of
> amazing revelation.
>
Season 5 has that "set location" feel to it. You can tell it is a set,
which for some reason the other season did not give off (maybe if I studied
production design I could put my finger on it). Season 5 was like the
interior shots of Doctor Who and stood out. Could be the lighting as it
did seem bright. That and the two distinct story lines with maybe 3 stand
alone episodes.
>>Anyway, all I'm trying to say is, he's only expressing an opinion.
>
> He's doing more than that.
>
>>As am I.
>
> You, I believe. :)
>
>>Neither are threats to your own beliefs about the show.
nuke - 198 pound weakling
Andrew Petrarca
> Sheridan--ESTJ
> Delenn--INTP
> G'kar--I/E NFJ
> Kosh--INTJ
> Sinclair--INTP
> PS anyone want to debate my Myers Briggs classifications?? That might be a
> fun topic, and I'm not entirely happy w/ them.
Well, I disagree with your classification of Delenn. No way is she INTP.
She's got INFP written all over her. :)
Most of the others look OK to me, but the only types I have a really good feel
for are INFP and INTP, so I'll withhold judgment about them.
--
Bitwise, Andrew. &
Richard Tibbetts
<Hraf...@hotmail.com> wrote on Sat, 22 Jun 2002 14:38:17 -0400:
[...]
>
> If you want to assume a LOT of cultural drift,
...which is a bad idea in any *good* SF. Anything that is different
from our current society, technologically, culturally or whatever,
should be explicitly expounded. Thems the rules, like in detective
fiction, where all the clues available to the sleuth have to be
available to the reader/watcher. Otherwise, you can end up using
technobabble to get out of impossible situations.
All fiction is to some extent a comment on humanity as it is now, so
no author wants to change too much.
--
Richard Tibbetts
http://www.primepeace.ltd.uk/
Lucas Bachmann
INTJ. A Myers Briggs/charactor discussion would
be very much worth having here.
Are you an INTJ? Seeing
Chuen Chans reply that he is very Kosh like, and
Its been my experience that the only people who are into
Myers Briggs or know what they are, are INTJs.
Lucas
INTJ
Raven Woman wrote:
> >2--With Sheridan, we get a contrast to the
> Sinclair/Delenn/G'kar/Kosh/(need-I-go-on?) spirituality of the show.
> Sheridan seems like a solid, uninquisitive agnostic, and an outgoing, "plays
> well with others" guy, a regular ESTJ to their (let me guess here)
> Delenn--INTP
> G'kar--I/E NFJ
> Kosh--INTJ
> Sinclair--INTP
> intuitive, introverted types.
>
> I know Myers-Briggs may be a kind of stretch here, but I just want to
> illustrate that he is *totally* a different personality, which shakes up the
> command staff a bit. A nice contrast.
>
> K nuff for now.
>
> Jenn
Lucas Bachmann
Galen strikes me as an INTJ. I think the
only people who know their Meyers Briggs
Personality are INTJs. Certainly we are
the only ones replying.
Lucas
Bil
> I disagree that we've gained an unhealthy level of inside knowledge.
> There may have been occasional slippages, but overall I think that the
> benefits of this arrangement have outweighed the drawbacks.
I think you misunderstood slightly what I was getting at (my fault, I'm
sure). If we'd just watched the show, without the aid of the LG, jms,
this froup (in my case, the UK B5 froup), I think the show would have had
a different resonance. ISTR, jms once said something about how he was
inside the goldfish bowl, and couldn't see it from outside, or words to
that effect. 'Net connected viewers when B5 was first on learned the ins-
and-outs of the making of the show *as* *it* *happened*. Difficult to
stay completely objective & unspoiled in those circumstances.
Re-reading that again, I don't think thats explained it very well either.
(but I'm afraid if I go back and try and figure it out, I'll start
bleeding from my ears... to borrow a quote)
>>it comes across as a very different show if you watch
>>seasons 1-4 then SiL.
> Yeah, I've tried watching it that way too.
Fun, isn't it? :-)
>>Not 'better' per se, just different. It still works.
> Yeah, which shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. JMS always said that
> season 5 was going to be a bit different, IIRC. The whole atmosphere
> was made different in some ways. The important parts of the show were
> basically covered in seasons 1-4. None of this constitutes any kind of
> amazing revelation.
Did anyone say it was a revelation?
>>Anyway, all I'm trying to say is, he's only expressing an opinion.
> He's doing more than that.
Well maybe I'm just not as familiar with the author as you, but it seems
hard (& harsh) to guess someone's true motives based solely on a critique
posted to a website, and a couple of harmless links. I just calls 'em as
I sees 'em.
>>As am I.
> You, I believe. :)
Why thank you :)
>>Neither are threats to your own beliefs about the show.
> That wasn't my concern. I don't mind reasoned criticisms of the show,
> even if I disagree with them. Taken by itself, I don't mind people
> engaging in self-promotion, either (we all do that at times, myself
> included). However, I *do* have a problem with people promoting
> themselves in a way that unfairly puts down someone else's work in the
> process. Also, some of his criticisms were of a fairly personal
> nature, and were quite false.
Politicians do it all the time. But we differ in that I didn't really see
it as putting down jms' work. I'm not an authority on whether everything
he said was true though.
> For instance, he said that JMS was
> partially at fault over CC leaving. He also said that JMS has publicly
> stated that he intends to post less to fans since this incident. This
> is also quite false; JMS has just been very busy lately, and he has
> praised fans for our patience during his busy times.
As I recall, jms said that he would be posting less once B5 finished.
'Course, he also said that he would retire from TV production and go and
live in a cupboard in deepest, darkest, England. :-) I for one am glad he
had a change of heart.
> Now, in hindsight perhaps my choice of language wasn't entirely
> necessary. I was just feeling angry with what he was trying to do, and
> so I wanted to push things in the other direction. However, I still
> stand by the overall semantic content of my original post. I'm not at
> all impressed by this guy's motives or some of his comments.
Fair enough.
--
_
_ // Bil Irving | Email: *Private* |
\X/ Visions Perceived Software | Web: www.visions-perceived.co.uk/ |
... "Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of
dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender."
- Citizen G'Kar, 2261
David Williams
"Matthew Vincent" <war...@es.co.nz> wrote in message
news:44aa4edb.02062...@posting.google.com...
> Bil <bil_i...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> >>Yeah, quite frankly I think the site is full of shit. The
> >>author is obviously trying to get attention for himself by
> >>disparaging an existing Sci-Fi show. I think it's a very
> >>dishonest and disrespectful...
> >
> >Jeez, give the guy a break! It's an *opinion*.
>
> An opinion that's presented as fact, for the most part.
Yeah, that's what bugged me. Reminds me in a way of what I've always hated
about Oliver Stone's JFK. Although I've never bought the Warren
Commission's report, I felt Stone really stepped over the line from
speculative fiction. It's been years since I saw it, but I remember being
annoyed at the way his *theory* seemed to be presented as *fact*. And yet,
when he was criticized for it, his answer in effect was 'It's only a movie.'
That was particularly galling because it seemed like a cop-out, and an
attempt to have it both ways. Perhaps my memory is hazy on this... But
anyway, that was when I pretty much got over Mr. Stone and his
controversy-for-the-sake-of-it style of film-making. Natural Born Killers
was such a tedious stomach-turner that I actually turned the video off
halfway through and returned it. Still don't know what happened. Still
don't care.
-David
James Bell
> nature, and were quite false. For instance, he said that JMS was
> partially at fault over CC leaving. He also said that JMS has publicly
> stated that he intends to post less to fans since this incident. This
> is also quite false;
IIRC, neither of these statements are "quite false." They are probably
deceptive but not false. JMS has to bear some of the responsibility for CC
leaving because he could have caved in to her demands and she would have
stayed. He did the right thing, the fair thing to the show and the other
actors. Because of that (at least partially) CC refused to re-up for season
5. This guy seems to excell at making technically true but deceptive
statements. IIRC, JMS not only said he was going to be online less, he
actually took some time away after the incident. It wasn't so much due to
being busy (he was always busy); he just didn't need the hassle for awhile.
We all take breaks from the newsgroup. JMS is no different. So again, the
guy's statement is true but deceptive. JMS didn't turn on the fans and
leave the Internet community. He just scaled back and took a breather for
awhile. That's how I remember it.
Jim
C W CHAN
>Are you an INTJ? Seeing
>Chuen Chans reply that he is very Kosh like, and
actually, I am nothing like Kosh (not cryptic, not mysterious,
likes to share knowledge and explain myself in full), I just
took it as a compliment to be classed in the same type as Kosh
(all knowing, wise, fair, tempered with compassion - ok, maybe
not Kosh 2).
>Its been my experience that the only people who are into
>Myers Briggs or know what they are, are INTJs.
I am not even sure I'm a J. The first test I took a few years ago put
in exactly halfway between J and P. The one I did in a bit of a hurry
a couple of days ago suggests I am a bit deeper into J. But INT,
definitely INT *grin*, and most of my closer friends are as well.
Chuen Chan c.c...@uq.NOSPAM.net.au
---------------------------------------------------------------------
'You can prove anything you want by coldly logical reason - if you pick
the proper postulates... Postulates are based on assumption and adhered
to by faith. Nothing in the Universe can shake them.' I. Asimov
Andrew Petrarca
I wouldn't be so sure of that. ;)
But then, I'm an INxP. Lucky me, I get to have all the hang-ups of both INFP
and INTP.
--
Bitwise, Andrew. &
David Williams
"Lucas Bachmann" <lucasb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3D13B1E9...@yahoo.com...
> Think there's a chance he might listen to the fans
> and accept that the Rangers movie was tedious, aggravating, and
> thematically useless?
>
> Lucas
ouch. I doubt it. But I'd argue that as a stand-alone it was pretty
unsatisfying. It really seemed intended to serve as a pseudo-pilot to just
set things up for the series that hasn't materialized. So by itself, pretty
much a throwaway. (Just had to check the Lurker's Guide to remember what
even happened in it.)
Wrote in a couple little mysteries as grabbers, but they didn't really grab
me. My lingering impression was a lot of machismo and cool 'splosions.
Kind of film I'd expect to see on TNT's MOVIES FOR GUYS WHO LIKE
MOVIES!!!!!!
I'm sure a series would have been much better.
-David
Raven Woman
> >Chuen Chans reply that he is very Kosh like, and
>
> actually, I am nothing like Kosh (not cryptic, not mysterious,
> likes to share knowledge and explain myself in full), I just
> took it as a compliment to be classed in the same type as Kosh
> (all knowing, wise, fair, tempered with compassion - ok, maybe
> not Kosh 2).
>
> >Its been my experience that the only people who are into
> >Myers Briggs or know what they are, are INTJs.
>
> I am not even sure I'm a J. The first test I took a few years ago put
> in exactly halfway between J and P. The one I did in a bit of a hurry
> a couple of days ago suggests I am a bit deeper into J. But INT,
> definitely INT *grin*, and most of my closer friends are as well.
>
> Chuen Chan c.c...@uq.NOSPAM.net.au
INTP here--so we're close.
I may have been hasty with Kosh--I'd say that as a culture Vorlons are INTJ,
at least as compared w/ earthlings (isn't ESTJ the most common category?)
and Kosh is more of a "P"--and perhaps a little bit more extraverted than
your average Vorlon, which isn't saying much!! But the other Vorlons
certainly don't mind making judgments and then blowing other people's stuff
to bits accordingly.
Extroverted? Extraverted? can't spell.......
Jenn
Zathrus
> I'm sure a series would have been much better.
>
> -David
>
OH! God! I would hope so.
Kathryn Huxtable
Nonsense. I'm an INTP.
-K
Andrew Petrarca
> No way is Delenn INTP. She's got INFP written all over her. :)
Here's some (silly) evidence to back this up. Typelogic.com sells mouse pads,
each of which features a slogan meant to typify one of the personality types.
You can see them at http://www.typelogic.com/mousepads/
The slogans on the INFP and INTP pads are as follows:
INTP: ....Analyzing....
INFP: Value Every Living Thing
Which sounds more like Delenn to you? :)
I'm pretty sure she's an INFP, but I'm -positive- she's an NF Idealist.
--
Bitwise, Andrew. &
The Nuclear Marine
"CaptJosh" <capt...@phantos.subspacelink.com> wrote in
news:aeqn90$8srtk$1...@ID-107133.news.dfncis.de:
> "Paul McElligott" <mcell...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:c926b0f.02061...@posting.google.com...
>> jbon...@aol.com (Jan) wrote in message
>> news:<20020617230310...@mb-ch.aol.com>...
> <snip>
>> Also, I have no idea if the story arc that JMS had planned for
>> Ivanova and Lyta for the 5th Season would have been the same one he
>> would have had if Talia Winters had still be around. But the dynamic
>> of Ivanova involved with Byron, with Talia as his loyal "disciple"
>> would have taken on a interesting dynamic, given Susan and Talia's
>> previous romantic involvement.
>>
> Ok, what are you smoking and why aren't you sharing? There was no
> romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were merely friends.
>
Hmm, let's see, Talia rolls over and notices Ivanova is not next to her in
bed. Or maybe I'm reading too much into that scene. Although jms said
they did not film a kissing scene, he did not deny they had something more
than friendship going on (he may have said more than that but I'm too tired
to look up the references).
Quit advocating drug use, you'll get the alcohol and tobacco companies mad
at you.
Nuke - 198 weakling
The Nuclear Marine
The Nuclear Marine
> msa...@cc.hut.fi wrote in message news:<aepbtl$6jh$1...@nntp.hut.fi>...
>
> As I understand it, most of Season 4 was written when Season 5 seemed
> very unlikely, so the story line was compressed. Remember how intense
> Season 4 was with both the end of the Shadow War and the retaking of
> Earth? I've often wondered if the retaking of earth would have been
> left until Season 5 if renewal hadn't been so unlikely. Also I wonder
> if the Drak War would have been taken further if Crusade hadn't been
> in the planning stages.
>
>
That would be a yes. Jms stated he had originally wanted intersections in
real time to be the season 4 finale. Ending on such a downer would make a
nice cliffhanger. The retaking of Earth would be 6 episodes into season 5.
I like the idea of introducing the telepath colony mid season 4 with its
conclusion in season 5. This would allow a better and less forced approach
to the storyline.
If any maniac ever tries to novelize the Babylon 5 story, I wonder if
Warner Brothers would allow a smoother approach such as that or a strict
adherence to the TV series. Perhaps, as Babylon 5 is begging to be made
into a 5 part novel.
Nuke - 198 pound weakling
The Nuclear Marine
war...@es.co.nz (Matthew Vincent) wrote in
news:44aa4edb.02062...@posting.google.com:
> Bil <bil_i...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>>Yeah, quite frankly I think the site is full of shit. The
>>>author is obviously trying to get attention for himself by
>>>disparaging an existing Sci-Fi show. I think it's a very
>>>dishonest and disrespectful...
>>
>>Jeez, give the guy a break! It's an *opinion*.
>
> An opinion that's presented as fact, for the most part.
>
What? The site quotes many of the postings jms himself stated in this
> I disagree that we've gained an unhealthy level of inside knowledge.
> There may have been occasional slippages, but overall I think that the
> benefits of this arrangement have outweighed the drawbacks.
>
It's true. We get dead certainty that Keifer is dead, Lyta and Lennier
will die, Along with confirmations in many episodes that were somewhat
vague in the aired ep. Good sometimes but you are left with tunnel vision
at points where you can only quote a jms post instead of backing up an
opinion with an episode itself.
>>One thing about the article that I did agree with was his
>>assessment of season 5. [...] *But* (and I have done this)
>>it comes across as a very different show if you watch
>>seasons 1-4 then SiL.
>
> Yeah, I've tried watching it that way too.
>
>>Not 'better' per se, just different. It still works.
>
> Yeah, which shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. JMS always said that
> season 5 was going to be a bit different, IIRC. The whole atmosphere
> was made different in some ways. The important parts of the show were
> basically covered in seasons 1-4. None of this constitutes any kind of
> amazing revelation.
>
Season 5 has that "set location" feel to it. You can tell it is a set,
which for some reason the other season did not give off (maybe if I studied
production design I could put my finger on it). Season 5 was like the
interior shots of Doctor Who and stood out. Could be the lighting as it
did seem bright. That and the two distinct story lines with maybe 3 stand
alone episodes.
>>Anyway, all I'm trying to say is, he's only expressing an opinion.
>
> He's doing more than that.
>
>>As am I.
>
> You, I believe. :)
>
>>Neither are threats to your own beliefs about the show.
nuke - 198 pound weakling
The Nuclear Marine
where...@netscape.net (WhereNTear) wrote in
news:fe8c080f.02061...@posting.google.com:
> msa...@cc.hut.fi wrote in message news:<aepbtl$6jh$1...@nntp.hut.fi>...
>
> As I understand it, most of Season 4 was written when Season 5 seemed
> very unlikely, so the story line was compressed. Remember how intense
> Season 4 was with both the end of the Shadow War and the retaking of
> Earth? I've often wondered if the retaking of earth would have been
> left until Season 5 if renewal hadn't been so unlikely. Also I wonder
> if the Drak War would have been taken further if Crusade hadn't been
> in the planning stages.
>
>
That would be a yes. Jms stated he had originally wanted intersections in
real time to be the season 4 finale. Ending on such a downer would make a
nice cliffhanger. The retaking of Earth would be 6 episodes into season 5.
I like the idea of introducing the telepath colony mid season 4 with its
conclusion in season 5. This would allow a better and less forced approach
to the storyline.
If any maniac ever tries to novelize the Babylon 5 story, I wonder if
Warner Brothers would allow a smoother approach such as that or a strict
adherence to the TV series. Perhaps, as Babylon 5 is begging to be made
into a 5 part novel.
Nuke - 198 pound weakling
Raven Woman
> > only people who know their Meyers Briggs
> > Personality are INTJs. Certainly we are
> > the only ones replying.
>
> Nonsense. I'm an INTP.
>
> -K
So are "IN"s the only folks who watch B5? Or who lurk around on
newsgroups??
Jenn
Kathryn Huxtable
> > > Galen strikes me as an INTJ. I think the
> > > only people who know their Meyers Briggs
> > > Personality are INTJs. Certainly we are
> > > the only ones replying.
> >
> > Nonsense. I'm an INTP.
>
> newsgroups??
Could be. Several analyses I've seen of Myers-Briggs scores group the
NT people into a group and then talk about the I/E and P/J
differences. For what it's worth, the P score is the most expressed in
my results, and is only moderately expressed. The I is next highest,
but is only around 20%.
BTW, I've done the real thing once and taken the quickie
questionnaires (about 70 questions) several times. On the latter, I've
found that the more deliberate I am taking the test, the lower my
expressions are. Also, the closer they are to the real thing, at least
in my case.
-K
James Bell
"Raven Woman" <Hraf...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:af9t7f$22...@r02n01.cac.psu.edu...
I'm usually an INTJ, too. There have been times I've come out slightly
ISTJ, though. I'm a weak N. Very strong in I,T,J, though.
Jim
Voxwoman
book (please understand me) from a long time ago...
-Wendy of NJ
Jim
> newsgroups??
It's very strange since NT's are meant only to comprise 10% of the
population, and INTJ's only 1%!
Personnaly I consider the whole grouping of personalitys very suspect, and
particulary the 70 or so questions you do on the web; no wonder everyones
turning out as NT.
Jim (INTJ apparently!)
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.371 / Virus Database: 206 - Release Date: 13/06/2002
Febo13
>particulary the 70 or so questions you do on the web; no wonder everyones
>turning out as NT.
>
>Jim (INTJ apparently!)
Typing is very suspect the way most people use it -- most people just take the
70-item web version (or college intro textbook version) or just read about the
types and decide they most be the "rarest" or "coolest" type. When done by a
professional Psychoanalyst, type is usually determined by a 500 or so question
test and a series of interviews, and even then it is stressed that it is not
definitive, it is only a guide to how to think about your personality, and that
it will change over time.
Yavar
> Think there's a chance he might listen to the fans
> and accept that the Rangers movie was tedious, aggravating, and
> thematically useless?
It was leaps and bounds ahead of The Gathering, and look what that turned into. It
was intended as a pilot. It was one of the best pilots I've ever seen (scifi at
least). Better than B5's, better than TNG's, better than DS9's, better than
Voyager's, better than Farscape's, etc.
So it wasn't great. These things get ironed out. It took Next Generation two
years, and it's now widely considered as the best Trek show.
I'm sure JMS is very much aware of all the weak points in To Live and Die in
Starlight. We are all our own greatest critics, after all.
Yavar
David Williams
conversation thread, is there any place to take your little MB test for
free? That is to say, I'm curious, but not curious enough to spend money on
it. Certainly not the $100 or more for the tests I've seen in a quick
internet search.
-David
"Raven Woman" <Hraf...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:af9t7f$22...@r02n01.cac.psu.edu...
Rick
>> Think there's a chance he might listen to the fans
>> and accept that the Rangers movie was tedious, aggravating, and
>> thematically useless?
>
>It was leaps and bounds ahead of The Gathering, and look what that
>turned into. It
>was intended as a pilot. It was one of the best pilots I've ever seen (scifi at
>least). Better than B5's, better than TNG's, better than DS9's, better than
>Voyager's, better than Farscape's, etc.
FWIW, I'd second that. The only SF pilots I can think of off-hand that
better it are The Prisoner, The Man Trap (TLADIS was better'n The Cage,
IMHO) and the first ep of Gerry Anderson's UFO (can't recall the title
off-hand). It certainly beats anything running right now...
--
Regards,
Rick
The Nuclear Marine
Yavar <boba...@nctimes.net> wrote in
news:3D192DC4...@nctimes.net:
> Lucas Bachmann wrote:
>
>> Think there's a chance he might listen to the fans
>> and accept that the Rangers movie was tedious, aggravating, and
>> thematically useless?
>
> It was leaps and bounds ahead of The Gathering, and look what that
> turned into. It was intended as a pilot. It was one of the best pilots
> I've ever seen (scifi at least). Better than B5's, better than TNG's,
> better than DS9's, better than Voyager's, better than Farscape's, etc.
>
Ok, I have to disagree on one point. TLADIS was not better than the DS9
pilot. The DS9 pilot, despite its questionable origins was a great
emotional roller-coaster, very sad, and appeared to set itself up as an
anti-Trek to where not everything was antiseptic. Yeah, I was young, but
still had me in tears when I first saw it everytime Sisco had to leave his
wife. B5 never made me cry, but there was nothing of that emotional nature
in it as I saw it.
> So it wasn't great. These things get ironed out. It took Next
> Generation two years, and it's now widely considered as the best Trek
> show.
>
Not saying much there though :^)
> I'm sure JMS is very much aware of all the weak points in To Live and
> Die in Starlight. We are all our own greatest critics, after all.
>
A moment of zen, to be aware of one's weakness and not to overcome, is that
another weakness?
Narcissists are their own biggests fans.
The Nuclear Marine
Yavar <boba...@nctimes.net> wrote in
news:3D192DC4...@nctimes.net:
> Lucas Bachmann wrote:
>
>> Think there's a chance he might listen to the fans
>> and accept that the Rangers movie was tedious, aggravating, and
>> thematically useless?
>
> It was leaps and bounds ahead of The Gathering, and look what that
> turned into. It was intended as a pilot. It was one of the best pilots
> I've ever seen (scifi at least). Better than B5's, better than TNG's,
> better than DS9's, better than Voyager's, better than Farscape's, etc.
>
Ok, I have to disagree on one point. TLADIS was not better than the DS9
pilot. The DS9 pilot, despite its questionable origins was a great
emotional roller-coaster, very sad, and appeared to set itself up as an
anti-Trek to where not everything was antiseptic. Yeah, I was young, but
still had me in tears when I first saw it everytime Sisco had to leave his
wife. B5 never made me cry, but there was nothing of that emotional nature
in it as I saw it.
> So it wasn't great. These things get ironed out. It took Next
> Generation two years, and it's now widely considered as the best Trek
> show.
>
Not saying much there though :^)
> I'm sure JMS is very much aware of all the weak points in To Live and
> Die in Starlight. We are all our own greatest critics, after all.
>
Andrew
news:RZdNZqAH...@redx.demon.co.uk...
> Yavar <boba...@nctimes.net> writes
>
> >> Think there's a chance he might listen to the fans
> >> and accept that the Rangers movie was tedious, aggravating, and
> >> thematically useless?
> >
> >It was leaps and bounds ahead of The Gathering, and look what that
> >turned into. It
> >was intended as a pilot. It was one of the best pilots I've ever seen
(scifi at
> >least). Better than B5's, better than TNG's, better than DS9's, better
than
> >Voyager's, better than Farscape's, etc.
>
> FWIW, I'd second that. The only SF pilots I can think of off-hand that
> better it are The Prisoner, The Man Trap (TLADIS was better'n The Cage,
> IMHO)
"The Man Trap" wasn't the second pilot. "Where No Man Has Gone Before" was
the second pilot. "The Man Trap" was simply the first aired episode, but the
8th or 9th shot.
> and the first ep of Gerry Anderson's UFO (can't recall the title
> off-hand). It certainly beats anything running right now...
Agreed, but only because Farscape is in the gutter so far this season, with
no clear sense of direction (yet).
--
Andrew
Jim
> conversation thread, is there any place to take your little MB test for
> free? That is to say, I'm curious, but not curious enough to spend money
on
> it. Certainly not the $100 or more for the tests I've seen in a quick
> internet search.
You can start your research from:
But as it's been pointed out, it's only 70 or so questions so rather a bit
'iffy'.
You can learn about the different types from:
Following on from my other posting, the tester claims I'm INTJ but on
speaking to a behavorial scientist last night, he said I'm almost certainly
not one of those. According to the web description, they tend to be rather
'shy' (?) but the person I spoke to said the opposite, that they are rather
'in your face' type of people so I don't see how this can fit Galen.
Jim
David Williams
"Yavar" <boba...@nctimes.net> wrote in message
news:3D192DC4...@nctimes.net...
> Lucas Bachmann wrote:
>
> > Think there's a chance he might listen to the fans
> > and accept that the Rangers movie was tedious, aggravating, and
> > thematically useless?
>
> It was leaps and bounds ahead of The Gathering, and look what that turned
into. It
> was intended as a pilot. It was one of the best pilots I've ever seen
(scifi at
> least). Better than B5's, better than TNG's, better than DS9's, better
than
> Voyager's, better than Farscape's, etc.
>
> So it wasn't great. These things get ironed out. It took Next Generation
two
> years, and it's now widely considered as the best Trek show.
>
Actually, I concur wholeheartedly. Just got tired and went to bed before
finishing my reply.
-David
Sue
proclaimed:
>
>> and the first ep of Gerry Anderson's UFO (can't recall the title
>> off-hand). It certainly beats anything running right now...
>
>Agreed, but only because Farscape is in the gutter so far this season, with
>no clear sense of direction (yet).
Farscape has a direction. You may not be able to see it - I'm still
not sure but I think it has to do with responsibility and parenthood
and love - but it's there. It is not, imo, in the gutter.
Sue
>
>--
>Andrew
>
John W. Kennedy
> FWIW, I'd second that. The only SF pilots I can think of off-hand that
> better it are The Prisoner, The Man Trap (TLADIS was better'n The Cage,
> IMHO) and the first ep of Gerry Anderson's UFO (can't recall the title
> off-hand). It certainly beats anything running right now...
"Man Trap" was not a pilot.
--
John W. Kennedy
Read the remains of Shakespeare's lost play, now annotated!
http://pws.prserv.net/jwkennedy/Double%20Falshood.html
Rick
>> > It was one of the best pilots I've ever seen
>>
>> FWIW, I'd second that. The only SF pilots I can think of off-hand that
>> better it are The Prisoner, The Man Trap (TLADIS was better'n The Cage,
>> IMHO)
>
>"The Man Trap" wasn't the second pilot. "Where No Man Has Gone Before" was
>the second pilot. "The Man Trap" was simply the first aired episode, but the
>8th or 9th shot.
...But the first the audience saw, which was more what I was thinking.
>Agreed, but only because Farscape is in the gutter so far this season, with
>no clear sense of direction (yet).
I was really thinking about TLADIS against the Farscape pilot. But on
the subject of FS: talking to friends, I know I'm in a minority on this,
but I don't get the appeal of Farscape. I couldn't take its technology
seriously enough to watch it as real SF, so I'm stuck with viewing it as
a fantasy show. And it has that annoying (annoying to me, anyway) Trek
formatting quirk which states that the hero's team has to be made up of
unique individuals rather than average joes; the only android on a
Federation starship, or the only Klingon, or the only 14-year-old
navigator, or the only independent human-borg, or the only Vulcan, or
whatever. Probably a good way to sell an SF show to networks who prefer
interesting make-up to interesting characters, but I'd rather have the
*characters*. I think TLADIS could've given us characters we'd have
loved.
(Crusade suffered a bit from the unique-crew syndrome, IMHO. But that
was kinda justified, since the crew was Earth's last best hope...)
--
Regards,
Rick
Voxwoman
an orphan, or at least a half-breed ;)
Yavar
> [posted and mailed]
>
> Yavar <boba...@nctimes.net> wrote in
> news:3D192DC4...@nctimes.net:
>
> > Lucas Bachmann wrote:
> >
> >> Think there's a chance he might listen to the fans
> >> and accept that the Rangers movie was tedious, aggravating, and
> >> thematically useless?
> >
> > It was leaps and bounds ahead of The Gathering, and look what that
> > turned into. It was intended as a pilot. It was one of the best pilots
> > I've ever seen (scifi at least). Better than B5's, better than TNG's,
> > better than DS9's, better than Voyager's, better than Farscape's, etc.
> >
> Ok, I have to disagree on one point.
You're free to have an opinion.
> TLADIS was not better than the DS9
> pilot. The DS9 pilot, despite its questionable origins was a great
> emotional roller-coaster, very sad, and appeared to set itself up as an
> anti-Trek to where not everything was antiseptic. Yeah, I was young, but
> still had me in tears when I first saw it everytime Sisco had to leave his
> wife. B5 never made me cry, but there was nothing of that emotional nature
> in it as I saw it.
B5...*never*...made you cry?! Good grief. Not even the "War" sequence in In the
Beginning? Wow. I'm not the kind of guy who cries for movies often. B5 is just
about the *only* thing that has managed to make me cry.
> > So it wasn't great. These things get ironed out. It took Next
> > Generation two years, and it's now widely considered as the best Trek
> > show.
> >
> Not saying much there though :^)
Eh. Trek for me is something where you have to pick out the good episodes (and
movies...and books) and enjoy them. With B5, you pick out the bad ones (all
five or so of them). :)
> > I'm sure JMS is very much aware of all the weak points in To Live and
> > Die in Starlight. We are all our own greatest critics, after all.
> >
> A moment of zen, to be aware of one's weakness and not to overcome, is that
> another weakness?
TLaDiS was finished and had to be turned in. There was no time to make it
absolutely perfect, to iron things out. In a perfect world, sure. But in real
life, sometimes you just do the best you can with the time and resources you
have. I think JMS did this, and I think Legend of the Rangers could have become
a great series.
> Narcissists are their own biggests fans.
Indeed.
Yavar
Raven Woman
> the subject of FS: talking to friends, I know I'm in a minority on this,
> but I don't get the appeal of Farscape. I couldn't take its technology
> seriously enough to watch it as real SF, so I'm stuck with viewing it as
> a fantasy show. And it has that annoying (annoying to me, anyway) Trek
> formatting quirk which states that the hero's team has to be made up of
> unique individuals rather than average joes; the only android on a
> Federation starship, or the only Klingon, or the only 14-year-old
> navigator, or the only independent human-borg, or the only Vulcan, or
> whatever. Probably a good way to sell an SF show to networks who prefer
> interesting make-up to interesting characters, but I'd rather have the
> *characters*. I think TLADIS could've given us characters we'd have
> loved.
>
> (Crusade suffered a bit from the unique-crew syndrome, IMHO. But that
> was kinda justified, since the crew was Earth's last best hope...)
>
> --
> Regards,
> Rick
Yah...but then we have to assume that someone *assigned* folks to the
Enterprise, to B5, etc. These guys are on the ship because, for the most
part, they're misplaced people, drifters by choice or chance. That's part
of their story.
I kinda thought the mix on Crusade looked a little like your
fill-in-the-blanks D&D group. A thief, a mage, a fighter.....
Jenn
(wishing she had telly so she could still follow Farscape, boo-hoo)