SDT - controversial topic (females in all-male corps)
Fotini901
Martha - I can see what you're saying about keeping the tradition in
Madison and Cavies. However, I just want to point out that I completely
disagree with you about the Citadel, because while the corps are private
orgainzations who should be able to select their memberships however they
please, the Citadel is a public institution supported by the state
government, and has become a big state-supported boys' club, and that's
not right. We cannot say our government stands for equality and then say
it can offer a military education in South Carolina to men but not to
women.
Also, I find it very interesting that you believe this, yet chose to march
in SCV, a corps who had changed their rules and not only survived, but
flourished, and Gail ended up loving all the girls in the corps just as
much as the guys. Not good or bad, I mean I LOVE SCV as you know, but
just, interesting.
Martha Leeson
Hi Folks!
I don't know if this topic has been discussed before (and I just KNOW
I'm going to get my butt flamed by everyone for posting my opinions on
this topic) but out of curiousity I had to find out what other people
think about the topic of.....
SHOULD FEMALES BE ALLOWED IN ALL-MALE CORPS (and vice versa, of course)?
Last night, Rich Garcia and I got into a discussion about the issue of
females wanting to be in either Cavaliers or Madison. We both have VERY
different opinions on the matter. In a nutshell, he thinks that women
SHOULD be allowed into those corps if that's what they want to do. I say
that women SHOULD NOT be allowed into those corps. IMHO, a woman who
would try and force her way in like that would only be causing problems
and asking for major trouble in return. I feel that the tradition should
be left alone and allowed to stand (probably a switch from what you
thought our opinions would be).
For example, I feel the same way about drum corps as I do about military
academies like The Citadel that also have long-standing traditions of
being all-male. In my opinion, the ONLY reason a woman would try and
force her way in is to make an issue out of something....you know, just
for the sole purpose of making a point. I think that a woman who'd go so
far as to try and force her way into a corps like Madison or Cavies is
just being a major pain in the butt! Maybe that's harsh, but that's my
opinion. I love those two corps, but I also know and respect their
membership rules so I would not try and cross the line. If I really
loved and respected those drum corps, I'd go audition for another top 6
corps rather than start a scandal.
I was wondering if anyone out there know whether or not Scott Stewart or
Jeff Fiedler (or the corps directors before them) were ever faced with a
problem of women wanting in and threatening lawsuits, and if so how they
handled the matter? After all, as far as I know the tradition of those
two corps being all-male is simply
that - a tradition, and nothing else (it obviously can't be held up by
any laws, can it?).
Interesting sidenote: if that tradition had upheld for SCV, I would not
have been able to march there since there were no women allowed in the
instrumental portion of the corps until 1983. Why did that change?
Supposedly, a girl threatened a lawsuit, and Gail Royer caved. From what
I know, the girl actually never marched a full season, but thanks to her
I (and many other females since) got to march in Vanguard. However, if
there had been no females allowed in Vanguard, I probably would have not
questioned it and gone to Blue Devils instead (equal caliber corps, and
they would let me march).
What are your feelings on the matter? I know some people out there are
going to want to flame me and rip me a new one, but I'd appreciate
constructive comments and criticism because I'm just curious about what
other people think. I'm not trying to be a jerk or some kind of
"reverse-chauvanist", it's just my opinion on keeping Madison and
Cavaliers "unique" (TO ME they're unique, and if they allowed women
they'd just be like every other corps). Thanks!
Martha Leeson
Martha :o)
WHITE 100
Here's my opinion.
The Freelancers, to the best of my knowledge started out as an all-girl
corps. Does anyone feel it was unfair for this corps to have allowed in
men? If you do feel it was unfair or unjust, and you also think that
Madison and Cavaliers should let in women - then you are contradicting
yourself.
As said before - these 2 corps are unique. If a woman really cares for
a certain corps they would not cause a scandal that might seriously
upset the balance of that particular corps.
FSteine
I'm a male clarinet player and have never even marched corps so you can
throw my comments out the window here and now if want. I just wanted to
say that this is an interesting question. I've wondered about it for
years. I also respect the 'Scouts and Cavvies so I wouldn't want to see
anything impact their respective organizations negatively. I just don't
understand exactly how letting women in the corps would do that.
It seems to me the important aspects of their traditions (i.e. precision
execution, integrity, etc...) would not be hurt by accepting female
membership. Perhaps I'm missing something but I'm wondering if perhaps the
"all male" part of the tradition is just something which has help on for
years but just may not be necesary.
Comments on this topic from active or vet members of the corps in question
are encouraged and would be enlightening.
BDcontra
I'm sitting here trying to picture Martha in a BD supersuit...and it's
just not happening. Sorry, Martha, but to me, you will always and forever
be the image I picture when someone talks about the SCV pit....
Hehehehe...
John Adcock
Concord Blue Devils 1989
Suncoast Sound 1985-88
GSNewell
<<It seems to me the important aspects of their traditions (i.e. precision
execution, integrity, etc...) would not be hurt by accepting female
membership. Perhaps I'm missing something but I'm wondering if perhaps the
"all male" part of the tradition is just something which has help on for
years but just may not be necesary.
Comments on this topic from active or vet members of the corps in question
are encouraged and would be enlightening.>>
From discussions with member/friends of the two all-male corps, they have
strong reasons why they enjoy being in all-male corps.
Keeping it all-male IS necessary to maintain their identities.
One of the best (most logical) reasons for wanting to stay all-male is
that it gets rid of a major distraction. Whether it sounds stupid or not,
having opposite sexes around each other creates a tension: The guys eyeing
the girls in their bikinis, the girls gossiping about the guys, etc., etc.
Greg
Supporter of maintaining tradition.
PRDuckman
There are plenty of other corps out there that all the women can march in
without having to mess up one of the last remaining peices of drum corps
tradition.
-Mark Bertram
Phantom Regiment
86-90
tubu...@aol.com
Uhhh...huuuhhh....Chicks are cool.
tubu...@aol.com
The Vienna Phil just voted to let women in.
I think all corps too should be co-ed. I always wanted to be in the Bandettes.
je
OxSabrexO
You must look at where Madison and Cavies came from. Both were started as
Boy Scout troops, and henceforth, have a long line of all male background.
I feel that they should keep it the way it is, because they are private
institutions and can select their members on any criteria they want to.
But, on the topic of the Citadel, I think that women should be allowed in
IF they can handle it. Now, setting someone aflame is pushing the rule of
hazing, but if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen (no pun
intended)
That's my 2 cents
Josh
Eric Park
Females in the Scouts? There have actually been three women in the
corps since its first rehersal in 1938. I'm not sure how they got in but
I'm pretty sure they were all in the color guard. I know for sure that
one played Alice when they did Alice in Wonderland way back in 1971.
Today I don't think that a girl would fit in much better. Part of what
makes the Madison Scouts so exciting is the masculinity that they harness
and display extremely well. Females would take away from the commonality
that all the members share. It would take away from the brotherhood that
is so special and unique to the organization.
BRAD HARRY
Madison Mello '95-'97
lega...@aol.com
>SHOULD FEMALES BE ALLOWED IN ALL-MALE CORPS (and vice versa, of course)?
Both of the all-male corps mentioned in your post, Cavies and Scouts, were originally organized as Boy Scout troops. Hence, one of their strong traditions follows the position of the BSA, no females
allowed. However, some time ago, BSA changed their policy on Explorer Posts and now welcomes females into that part of the program. This was done primarily because there was no organization
offering a program for young women who had outgrown the Girl Scouts program.
My opinion is that the membership of the corps should decide this issue.
As for females in other corps, there was a time when most corps relegated females to the color guard, and possibly drum major. Somewhere along the line management woke up and realized that guards
could only get so big and that the majority of the population is female. That's when they started to let females into the horn line. Drum lines were predominantly all-male until much later.
FWIW, back in 1965, the corps I marched with had a guard that was bigger than the horn line. The winter before the 1966 season, there were many changes taking place in the corps (new instructors,
etc.). A decision was made by management to encourage some of the guard members to switch to horn. We came out late in 1966 with twice as many horns, an A section (honor guard) and moved from near
dead last to near the top by the end of the season. If the guard members had quit rather than switch, the corps would surely have folded.
Larry Girard, Jr.
Moulton
In article <19970329174...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
oxsa...@aol.com (OxSabrexO) wrote:
>You must look at where Madison and Cavies came from. Both were started as
>Boy Scout troops, and henceforth, have a long line of all male background.
As I understand it (Or at least here in Canada) most "Boy" Scout troops are
now just *Scouts* and allow female membership. Which I believe in because
Brownies and girl guides is for wimps :)
But seeing an all male corps is a treat to most Females my age (20). I was
in Rome, NY last year and Madison was doing a workshop thing. When they
asked us to get up and march in a block with them myself and my best friend
joined the mellophone line and geez! They must have gotten yelled at ten
or fifteen times...We were a big distraction! I mean it's great for the
ego but I kinda felt bad for them too... Sigh...Anyway when I asked a
certain mellophone player named Jared what he thought about being in an all
male corps his response was that of the distraction thing. Which is legit.
Now I know I probably should stay away from this...but I have no tact
hehehe...:) What about homosexuals in those corps? Isn't there an element
of distraction there too? What about possible conflicts between gay and
straight men? Are there problems there? Just curious...
Rahja
CRAIG W. PETERSON
Moulton wrote:
>
> In article <19970329174...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> oxsa...@aol.com (OxSabrexO) wrote:
> >You must look at where Madison and Cavies came from. Both were started as
> >Boy Scout troops, and henceforth, have a long line of all male background.
>
> <snip>!
>
> As I understand it (Or at least here in Canada) most "Boy" Scout troops are
> now just *Scouts* and allow female membership. Which I believe in because
> Brownies and girl guides is for wimps :)
Well, actually the United States isn't really big on letting girls into
Boy Scouts. I don't even think it is allowed. I am a member and have
never encountered a female besides in Explorers in any other troops. Just
wondering- How many other RAMDers are or were in Scouts?
David Peterson
DrgnLdy44
on the boy scout thing...
i think i recall that in order for either boys or girls to enter the
opposite scouts, they had to be of a certain age. i believe girls had to
be between 14 and 16 and boys around 15 and 17.
lega...@aol.com
>Well, actually the United States isn't really big on letting girls into
>Boy Scouts. I don't even think it is allowed. I am a member and have
>never encountered a female besides in Explorers in any other troops. Just
>wondering- How many other RAMDers are or were in Scouts?
>David Peterson
>
>
David,
I am an adult volunteer with Boy Scouts. I'm an Assistant District Commissioner. My job is to provide support services to the Troops and Packs. You are right. BSA does not allow females in Cub
Scouts or Boy Scouts. They do allow coed Explorer Posts. It is my understanding that this is some sort of agreement that BSA has with GSUSA (sort of a non-compete thing).
Larry Girard, Jr.
Kent G Shook
Eric Park (WIGR...@indiana.edu) wrote:
: Females in the Scouts? There have actually been three women in the
: I'm pretty sure they were all in the color guard. I know for sure that
: one played Alice when they did Alice in Wonderland way back in 1971.
Bzzzt! You lose... Four. You're right about the Alice in Wonderland show,
there was one girl in the guard ("Alice", of course!). The other three were
only for one show in (I think) 1980 (Cam, are you out there to tell this
like it was?). I think what happened was that Scouts went to VFW
championships that year, and VFW still required a flag presentation. Rather
than "waste" three members on a flag pre for that show, they took 3 members'
girlfriends, painted moustaches on them with mascara, and had them do the
flag pre.
Anyway, here's my take on the whole issue: There is an almost different
culture when you get into an all-male (and presumably all-female)
environment. Anyone who's marched Madison or Cavies probably knows what I
mean, and maybe those who were frat members, etc. One place that I noticed a
big difference was in the dorms here at the university. My first year, I
lived in a coed house. People within the house never got to know one another
very well, partially because nobody ever really hung out in the lounge. (My
guess is because people felt that they had to be more "dressed up" in front
of members of the opposite sex.) My second year, by chance, I ended up in an
all-male house. In this house, we got to know each other much better.
Everyone was always hanging out in the lounge and chatting about "guy stuff"
with uncombed hair and not wearing shirts half the time. :-) Why? We didn't
have to worry about what the women would think.
There are a number of distinct advantages to being in an all-male corps:
* All the women flock to us anyway! ;-)
* Facilities. We can use both men's and women's shower rooms, which means
that there's shorter or no lines for showers. I also found that women's
bathrooms were usually in MUCH better shape than the mens' (Like, they
usually had toilet paper, more likely to have rolls than individual sheets
(I hate those!), cleaner, more likely to have doors on the stalls, etc).
* As has been pointed out, fewer distractions in rehearsal. This may be a
contributing factor to the high productivity of Scouts' and Cavies'
rehearsals that has been discussed recently (though it is far from the only
factor).
* And, of course, the brotherhood. I won't bother to explain this further,
because it really can't be put into words. Every corps is like "Family" but
I think all-male corps have this, squared.
Later,
Kent
--
__________________________________________________________________________
Kent Shook | Madison Jr. Scouts '90 | He who dies with
sh...@csd.uwm.edu | Madison Scouts '91-'96 | the most toys,
http://www.uwm.edu/~shook/ | Baritone | still dies.
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*** UW-Milwaukee Information & Media Technologies * LAN Services ***
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Bradford Fowler
Kent G Shook (sh...@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu) wrote:
: Anyway, here's my take on the whole issue: There is an almost different
: culture when you get into an all-male (and presumably all-female)
: environment. Anyone who's marched Madison or Cavies probably knows what I
: mean, and maybe those who were frat members, etc. One place that I noticed a
: big difference was in the dorms here at the university. My first year, I
: lived in a coed house. People within the house never got to know one another
: very well, partially because nobody ever really hung out in the lounge. (My
: guess is because people felt that they had to be more "dressed up" in front
: of members of the opposite sex.) My second year, by chance, I ended up in an
: all-male house. In this house, we got to know each other much better.
: Everyone was always hanging out in the lounge and chatting about "guy stuff"
: with uncombed hair and not wearing shirts half the time. :-) Why? We didn't
: have to worry about what the women would think.
As a resident of a coed floor, I have to disagree with you on this Kent. My
dorm ALWAYS has people in the lounge. We all know each other and don't feel
we have to be dressed up to sit around in the lounge. However, the drawback
is that the bathroom right next to my room is women's showers and I have to
go to the other end of the hall to shower. I could be that my floor was
comprised of very social people, and that in most cases you are correct.
-Brad
--
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|http://www.beloit.edu/~fowlerb/Bradpad.html
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ScribeToo
I was in scouts (GIRL scouts, that is..) and at the time and age I was..
who the heck wanted to be around a bunch of smelly boys anyway? We still
went camping and hiking and all the fun adventure stuff that the boys got
to do..
But Madison and Cavies should be left as is. I agree with Rahja about the
singular thrill to see 128 sweaty men under the age of 21 running and
blowing and pounding on things.. ::sigh:: Okay, I'm better now..
And because I'm copying this to the group, I want to respond to Rahja
about the question of homosexual distraction..
Just because a guy or girl is homosexual, that doesn't automatically mean
they have no control over their sexual impulses or that they are attracted
to everything that walks of the same gender.. they can generally tell if
you are gay or not and leave you alone accordingly.. but for those couples
who are attracted to each other in corps, it's just like any other
attraction.. there's a time and place for it. Homosexuality does not
immediately preclude them from being able to concentrate on the task at
hand at any given moment because of the fact that they are physically near
someone they are attracted to. That would imply a sexual disorder..
That's all I have to say about that..
:)
(*)Stefanie
Mike
ScribeToo wrote:
> But Madison and Cavies should be left as is. I agree with Rahja about the
> singular thrill to see 128 sweaty men under the age of 21 running and
> blowing and pounding on things.. ::sigh:: Okay, I'm better now..
> In my ancient days there were a number of all-girl corps, the
Audobon Bon-bons being the best. Of course, until 1969, Garfield was
all guy, BS golden Knights were all-guy, and so were most of the corps I
can think of. It seems like an anachronism today to limit corps by
gender, IMHO. Just change the limit to race, for example, and see how odd
it looks.
>
> And because I'm copying this to the group, I want to respond to Rahja
> about the question of homosexual distraction..
>
> Just because a guy or girl is homosexual, that doesn't automatically mean . . .
>
> (*)Stefanie
Hooray!! Steph. Very well said!
Mike Garfield '70-'72