Im returning my Meridian tomorrow - Follow up of "I bought my GPS Today"
Iz
Can someone explain this to me please ... Im still a newbie here :)
Like many of you know, I went in the forest ( no leafs yet ) biking with a
Venture inside my raincoat, and the GPS only got like 25% of my track.
I did the same ride with the same bike in the same forest (not the same
underwear btw, but with the same raincoat) with a Legend,
I got about the same % of the track but add to this that my max speed was
633mph and I apparently made a quick visite (according to the map)to a town
45 miles away from where I was.
Did also the same ride with a Meridian (which I really hate btw), no loss,
100% of the track (and it looks perfect) and no strange behavior on map or
on speed result.
My question: How come Garmin (The world leader ?) decided to use that crappy
patch antenna !!!!! Why ? The eTrex Venture/Legend are just awesome products
if we forget the crappy antenna ! Why that damn patch antenna ???
I wont walk hours with the eTrex in my hand making sure its facing the sky
or what ever good position it needs...
And finally, I came back from a short trip in the mountains... The Meridian
has an awesome recpetion quality , but I REALLY hate the buttons and the
interface. So annoying.
I guess Ill return the Meridian and get a Garmin 76map. Only $300 more than
what I wanted to spent 2 weeks ago , arrghh ! I should have get the Magellan
315 and never came to this newsgroup... (joke)
Last question (I hope) how good is the Garmin 76map interface is ? As goos
as the eTrex ?
thanks again all for your help ... (even D A ) hehe ;)
Iz
Peter Rathmann
> Like many of you know, I went in the forest ( no leafs yet ) biking with a
> Venture inside my raincoat, and the GPS only got like 25% of my track.
...
> Did also the same ride with a Meridian (which I really hate btw), no loss,
> 100% of the track (and it looks perfect) and no strange behavior on map or
> on speed result.
>
> My question: How come Garmin (The world leader ?) decided to use that crappy
> patch antenna !!!!! Why ?
OTOH, I much prefer to do my bicycling with my GPSr mounted flat on my
handlebar stem where it's easily seen at all times. The patch antenna
on my Garmin eMap works great for this - in fact better than the
quadhelix antenna on my III+, and it's less susceptible to damage as
well. It's hard to design an internal antenna that works as well as
possible in all the orientations that users may want to use.
I do wish more units were made with connections for external antennas,
but the major manufacturers seem to agree that this is not necessary for
market success of the low-end units.
Iz
DA will tell us anyway.
I will mostly use the GPS for hiking in mountains btw. And maybe with my
car.
Iz
"Peter Rathmann" <prat...@attbi.com> a écrit dans le message news:
3CBA5252...@attbi.com...
barbara walton
allow waypoint, routes, and tracks to be saved/loaded to the SD card. It
will also allow the user to change maps with out using the 92 code. I just
don't see why you would take it back once you have seen how well it
maintaines a lock + what you said was accuracy.
Wyatt W.
"Iz" <I...@iz.com> wrote in message
news:j3ru8.11073$zx6.4...@weber.videotron.net...
Bob Gross
them all back and buy a trail guide or something.
I've always found that lack of user training will make about any consumer
product act badly.
In contrast, I purchased an old Garmin 12XL back in 1996 or 1997. I read the
booklet and then practiced for a month or two before I tried to do anything
serious with it. Maybe someday it will go belly-up, but I'm not complaining.
---Bob Gross---
"Iz" <I...@iz.com> wrote in message
news:1Lsu8.13397$zx6.5...@weber.videotron.net...
Iz
stick with the Meridian ...
Iz
"barbara walton" <wal...@santel.net> a écrit dans le message news:
ubkm90a...@corp.supernews.com...
Iz
because the reception of the eTrex suck ?
Hehehe, I dont think I need any training, I just need an eTrex with a Quad
Helix antenna :) or a Merdidian with a better design !
Iz
"Bob Gross" <rwg...@compuserve.com> a écrit dans le message news:
a9dn8k$2r9$1...@suaar1ab.prod.compuserve.com...
Richard
Meridian but no expandable memory. But it does come with the Streets
CD. And the buttons have a more positive feel than the Meridian.
Richard
planetgps.net
"barbara walton" <wal...@santel.net> wrote in message news:<ubkm90a...@corp.supernews.com>...
Dave Martindale
>Your probably right, If my major concern is the reception, I guess I should
>stick with the Meridian ...
If your major concern was reception, you wouldn't carry it in your
pocket - whatever model it was. You'd figure out how to carry or mount
the GPS receiver so its antenna was in the open with a good view of the
sky.
If you're going to carry the unit in a pocket, he Magellan has the
advantage of an antenna that works better when the unit is vertical,
but it's still not going to work *well* in a pocket.
Dave
Eddie
mounted camera bag. On the rucksack it works well and it is out of harms
way. Works fine.
Bob Gross
said that he was returning the unit "tomorrow". Of course, he said that
there was no user training problem either.
---Bob Gross---
"Dave Martindale" <da...@cs.ubc.ca> wrote in message
news:a9f33h$475$1...@trappist.cs.ubc.ca...
Iz
design or a better reception on the eTrex, lets go, we are all listenning to
you. Tell us Bob. Or maybe some training will give me 6 more meg on the
meridian for free, or maybe it will make it smaller too !! I want to
subscribe to your Training Bob !! Please !
The meridian worked great for me in the pocket but not the eTrex. Again, I
want to know how training can help that ? Perhaps I have problem with
pockets and I should get training on that too , no ?
If you like training so much Bob, well go get some for you if you want and
stop thinking well all need some.
Iz
"Bob Gross" <rwg...@compuserve.com> a écrit dans le message news:
a9f62a$14d$1...@suaar1ac.prod.compuserve.com...
Iz
me INSIDE my pocket, in the forest, while raining. Try it if you can, you
wont believe it. And I think its sad that I cant to that with the
Legend/Venture, cause I prefer them to the Meridian.
But I decided to keep my Meridian for this summer... I need to make tracks
in the forest, and for the price I guess I cant find anything better for
what I do. I cant afford the GPSmap 76 , even without the antenna ... Maybe
next year.
Thanks again all for all your tips !
Iz
"Dave Martindale" <da...@cs.ubc.ca> a écrit dans le message news:
a9f33h$475$1...@trappist.cs.ubc.ca...
Dave Martindale
>well I think Ill have to repeat: The Meridian has a perfect reception for
>me INSIDE my pocket, in the forest, while raining. Try it if you can, you
>wont believe it. And I think its sad that I cant to that with the
>Legend/Venture, cause I prefer them to the Meridian.
Perfect reception? How many satellites? What signal strength? What was
the error in your position? How would all of these things have changed if
the GPS was in the open, with a clear view of the sky?
As far as I can tell, "perfect reception" to you means "I got a track log".
And the only difference between the Magellan and Garmin units may have
been that the Magellan continues to give you (poor) positions under
conditions where the Garmin refuses to. That may be perfect reception
to you, but not to most people.
I think Bob Gross was right about user training, but some people just don't
want to understand. People have given you lots of good advice, for free,
and you've rejected it.
Dave
Iz
stopped shipping that model in Canada
http://www.magellangps.com/products/promo_spring-into-summer.htm ). No
coupon for the 330 for Canadian.
Retailers are all telling me its replaced by the Meridian and they cant
order the 330 anymore. I find that hard to believe but what can I do ...
Iz
"Richard" <wil...@usa.net> a écrit dans le message news:
9dbe34c3.02041...@posting.google.com...
Iz
of the Meridian ? Or because I said that eTrex`s patch antenna suck compare
to Quad-Helix ?(just read reviews and even advices I had on this newsgoup,
almost everyone agree with that). Because its my first GPS ? Because I dont
like the way Magellan designed his Meridian ? Because I dont want to walk
with a GPS in my hand 100% of the hike ? Because I cant afford to spend
$200 for something I wont use ?
I read everything I can find on GPS since I know I will get one, Im not an
expert , but I know how it works.
And I rejected only 2 advices btw:
1- DA telling me to avoid Magellan (some told me to avoid the eTrex , I cant
listen to everyone :) )
2- And Bob telling me I should get user training.
Here are a few I listen to:
Someone told me to get a Quad Helix GPS, I got that
Someone told me to gat a GPS that accpet maps , I got that
Many told me to avoid the deal I had on a old Garmin 36 (thank god)
Many told me to avoid eTrex patch antenna (I did that)
Many told me to get a 330 (I tried that, but couldnt find one)
you see , I aint that bad !
Iz
Iz
Someone else is wearing it on his shoulder, clipped on the backpack strap.
Iz
"Eddie" <Ed...@junkeddieparkes.co.uk> a écrit dans le message news:
a9f567$s4q$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
Philo
"Iz" <I...@iz.com> wrote in message
news:kLIu8.22091$zx6.9...@weber.videotron.net...
Iz
"Philo" <Ph...@nothereyet.org> a écrit dans le message news:
ubmor0p...@corp.supernews.com...
Bob Gross
material on consumer-type GPS receivers, you will find out that there is a
lot to learn. Specifically, you want to learn how your GPS receiver's patch
antenna is oriented and from what direction it receives it best pattern.
Then compare that to a different model or different brand. You want to find
out the effect of the human body in shading that antenna. It takes a bit of
reading and a bit of practice.
I do teach a class on an industrial product that uses GPS as an embedded
technology. So, the basics of GPS have to take up part of the class content,
as well as troubleshooting. If you would like to attend, then we can get you
scheduled in. The fee is $1500. We really like to teach that class, because
then the users do not complain that they can't get their GPS receivers to
work right.
---Bob Gross---
"Iz" <I...@iz.com> wrote in message
news:0zGu8.21228$zx6.8...@weber.videotron.net...
Bob Gross
would be better off to return it to the store as you promised us yesterday.
---Bob Gross---
"Iz" <I...@iz.com> wrote in message
news:nKGu8.21266$zx6.8...@weber.videotron.net...
Bob Gross
learn anything."
Dale DePriest
Iz wrote:
> My question: How come Garmin (The world leader ?) decided to use that crappy
> patch antenna !!!!! Why ? The eTrex Venture/Legend are just awesome products
> if we forget the crappy antenna ! Why that damn patch antenna ???
> I wont walk hours with the eTrex in my hand making sure its facing the sky
> or what ever good position it needs..
There is nothing inherently wrong with a patch antenna. Patch
antennas are designed to be horizontal and helix antennas are designed
to work vertically. If you insists that you can only use the unit
vertically then by all meqans buy a unit with a helix antenna. The
76Map might be just the thing. Many folks do fine or even better with
a patch antenna. If vertical it must be upright (I know the cord lets
it dangle down and some people therefore insist it has to work that
way but it won't). The antenna should also face away from your body.
It is not a crappy antenna design. It is as good as could be done in a
unit that is as small as it is and designed to be held so you can view
it easily and perhaps even take a bearing with the vista.
There are more than one model simply bacause people have different
needs. Buy the one that meets your needs but that doesn't make all the
other models crappy.
Dale
.
>
> And finally, I came back from a short trip in the mountains... The Meridian
> has an awesome recpetion quality , but I REALLY hate the buttons and the
> interface. So annoying.
> I guess Ill return the Meridian and get a Garmin 76map. Only $300 more than
> what I wanted to spent 2 weeks ago , arrghh ! I should have get the Magellan
> 315 and never came to this newsgroup... (joke)
>
> Last question (I hope) how good is the Garmin 76map interface is ? As goos
> as the eTrex ?
>
> thanks again all for your help ... (even D A ) hehe ;)
>
> Iz
>
>
>
--
. _ _ Dale DePriest
. /`) _ // http://users.cwnet.com/dalede
.o/_/ (_(_X_(` For GPS and GPS/Palm
Stevem...
the i-net you'd find a Map 330 product. Some friends of mine just told me
they are in Sam's club (a US wholesaler) for $149 US . That's the one with
the map software included (the Map 330x). If you have a friend in the US
they could get one for you probably.
As for the reception thing. Remember, any gps (including the 330 or
Meridian) will probably loose the "lock" and reacquire because you are
blocking the satellites due to your body in the way. The Magellan ones
have a tendency to "connect" the broken track logs to make it look good. I
personally don't like that feature as it shows inaccuracies then layered on
maps. But, that's what you get with Magellan . It can't be changed. My
Garmin products on the other hand were a handful when under tree cover to
keep a lock. I usually had to drive around holding the GPS in my hand to
keep the lock. It was a pain. So, there you have it. The reason you
can't figure out. Oh, and I used mine to make a map of the Snowmobile
trails for our clubhouse. It's on the LH club page below. Check it out.
--
L8tr...
Steve m...
web page: http://www.telerama.com/~stevem52
L.H. Club page: http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/7925
"Iz" <I...@iz.com> wrote in message
news:TgHu8.21469$zx6.8...@weber.videotron.net...
Ken Ashe
says...
>
>Dave, I don't think it matters anymore. On the 14th, the original poster
>said that he was returning the unit "tomorrow". Of course, he said that
>there was no user training problem either.
>
>---Bob Gross---
PEBKAC
Ken Ashe
says...
>
>"You give them books, you send them to school, and still they don't want to
>learn anything."
Or, as a sheetrocker friend says, "You send them to school and they eat
the books."
Joe Mehaffey
The problem is:
1) You are <apparently> new with GPS and you do not question your
observations. You saw in your uncontrolled experiments that Meridian
had better reception than eTrex and no one questions what you saw and
that you did indeed observe this.
2) What people are trying to tell you is:
a) the favored direction of the antenna in a Meridian is obtained when
the unit is vertical. and..
b) the favored direction of the antnna in an eTrex is obtained when the
GPS is laying flat on its back. If you happen to face the eTrex toward
your body in your pocket, then you are REALLY going to see signal
attenuation. Pointing Outward is not so bad.
3) As a result of (2) your observations are likely tainted by the lack
of this information during your test.
4) GPS antennas are detuned (desensitized) if they get too close to most
objects. One such object is your body. Thus no GPS will work as well in
your pocket as in your hand or other clear area. In ANY case, your GPS
in your pocket can result in signal shading (and cause multipath
reception) and poor position displayed even if the GPS thinks it is
locked.
5) The eTrex HAS proved to have lower antenna gain than GPSRs with
larger antennas. This is a trade off that some like and some do not.
Many of the people attempting to give you advice are Electrical
Engineers and others with tremendous experience and knowledge of GPS.
If you choose to ignore their information, you will learn slower than
if you give it some thought.
You will also be able to make a more intelligent decision on which GPS
works better for you and why.
Joe Mehaffey
PS: Mr *DA* is one of the loose cannons on this NG. MUCH of the time
he is now giving out quality data. But he still likes to "slam" this or
that vendor for personal reasons not connected with fact. BUT.. He IS
making an effort to provide useful info much of the time and we all
appreciate it.
--
Got a Question about GPS technology? Looking for a GPS FAQ site?
See: http://joe.mehaffey.com
Dave Martindale
>good idea !
>Someone else is wearing it on his shoulder, clipped on the backpack strap.
That's a particularly good place to mount a GPS with a patch antenna,
since the unit is roughly horizontal and the patch looks up. It wouldn't
be such a good place for a helix antenna.
And then there's the guy who reported keeping his GPS in his hat, or more
accurately between two layers of ski hats. This wasn't an etrex, either,
it was something like a GPS 12!
Dave
Dominic Sexton
<j...@mehaffey.com> writes
>The eTrex HAS proved to have lower antenna gain than GPSRs with
>larger antennas.
Do you have any evidence for this statement?
Is the antenna in the eTrex actually smaller than, for instance, that in
the Garmin GPS12?
Which units have the "larger" antennas with associated higher "antenna
gain" when compared to the eTrex?
How was the "antenna gain" measured and compared?
--
Dominic Sexton
http://www.dscs.demon.co.uk/
Andrew Kalinowski
"Dave Martindale"
>>>>sinip>>>
>
> As far as I can tell, "perfect reception" to you means "I got a track
log".
> And the only difference between the Magellan and Garmin units may have
> been that the Magellan continues to give you (poor) positions under
> conditions where the Garmin refuses to. That may be perfect reception
> to you, but not to most people.
>
>
> Dave
With all due respect; Dave, you are possibly making few assumptions to
many.
As much as I like Garmin Legend (it's virtually always with me through
out the working week), when I go into the woods, Magellan rules. The
truth is that Meridian (Magellan) will frequently continue to give you
good / usable position under conditions that Legend (Garmin) refuses to.
I used Legend and Magellan 330 side by side, in the woods often enough
to definitely conclude that 330 gives accurate readings in the
conditions where Legend will not keep a steady lock. By accurate, I
mean: no errors that would be visible after displaying on the map the
downloaded record. That is MUCH better than no record from Legend or
actually a record with many interruptions and obvious errors. When you
try to compare reception of two receivers, compare them in the same
optimum or less than optimum position.
I know that one can improve the signal reception by keeping the
receiver in a place that will maximize signal visibility. When I have a
need for the most accurate measurement, I'll use every trick in the bag
to have the odds on my side however most of the time, I don't need that
and do not need to walk around with the receiver strapped to my hat to
get satisfactory results in the woods. It's really enough to plop 330
into the breast pocket of my jacket to get most of the time much better
(accurate and complete) record of my travel than with the Legend.
How does it all relate to Meridian? Well, I did not get Meridian in time
to check it out under the dense foliage. Winter / spring tends to be
better time for GPS reception in the woods. Checking Meridian vs. 330 in
various other difficult reception conditions, so far I see them to be
virtually equal and feel confident extrapolating my experience with the
330 vs. Legend to Meridian vs. Legend.
--
Andrew Kalinowski
www.GPSNuts.com Recreational GPS and mapping (hobby)
www.CanadianMaps.ca Raster topo (and some other) maps
Kf6vyh
>product act badly.
I must agree, We sell quite a few GPS where I work. A least 99% of the people
that come back because they are having problems with a GPS have not taken the
time to learn how to use them. I also tell my customers if they can't program a
VCR they SHOULD NOT BUY A GPS. We had one customer that said up front he did
not want to buy a GPS unless we gave him lessons on all the functions and made
sure he understood them. He said he did not want to have to read the
directions. We sent him on his way.
Chris Malcolm
>user training ? Because I hate the design and interface of the Meridian and
>because the reception of the eTrex suck ?
Your reception test was ridiculous, uncontrolled variables, and no
consideration of factors that might have affected the different units
differently.
--
Chris Malcolm c...@dai.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 650 3085
School of Artificial Intelligence, Division of Informatics
Edinburgh University, 5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/daidb/people/homes/cam/ ] DoD #205
Joe Mehaffey
as the eMap and G-12xl, I can put more attenuation in fromt of the
G-12xl and eMap before they lose lock as compared with eTrex. I would
say the difference in antenna gain is in the order of 2 db or so, but
quantification is quite difficult without a laboratory setup.
This is to be expected as antenna aperature is a large indicator of gain
in all antennas. When you get any antenna to less than half wave size,
(or 1/4 wave as a ground plane) and then "load" it to resonance, the
gain of the antenna goes down as the size decreases relative to "full
size".
Joe Mehaffey
--
Bob Gross
At home, you have a VCR? yes
Is it flashing "12:00"?
---Bob Gross---
"Kf6vyh" <kf6...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020416112000...@mb-ct.aol.com...
Bob Gross
is a GPS 12XL.
The antenna cable runs from the receiver in my parka, up my neck and into
the hat. The antenna is between the inner hat and the outer hat. Fabric is
transparent to GPS frequencies.
---Bob Gross---
"Dave Martindale" <da...@cs.ubc.ca> wrote in message
news:a9gn1s$6cm$1...@trappist.cs.ubc.ca...
Dave Martindale
>I'm the guy, but it was not a GPS 12, which has no external antenna port. It
>is a GPS 12XL.
>The antenna cable runs from the receiver in my parka, up my neck and into
>the hat. The antenna is between the inner hat and the outer hat. Fabric is
>transparent to GPS frequencies.
No, I'm sure it was someone who put the *whole* receiver, not just a little
antenna, in their hat. I think he was from Europe.
What you're doing is positively sane in comparison.
Dave
Bob Gross
Or is that one of those "heads up displays"?
---Bob Gross---
"Dave Martindale" <da...@cs.ubc.ca> wrote in message
news:a9j2j7$gph$1...@trappist.cs.ubc.ca...
Dave Martindale
>If you put the whole receiver in the hat, then where is the display?
>Or is that one of those "heads up displays"?
Well, of course you'd have to keep your head up to keep the antenna
oriented properly.
I think he mainly wanted the track log and wasn't using the GPS for
navigation, so he didn't need the display.
I wouldn't want to fall and land head-first on the GPS receiver, though.
But maybe better skiers than me never do things like that.
Dave
Dominic Sexton
<j...@mehaffey.com> writes
Don't mail and post.
>Yes. In side by side comparisons of eTrex units with other models such
>as the eMap and G-12xl, I can put more attenuation in fromt of the
>G-12xl and eMap before they lose lock as compared with eTrex.
How do you apply this attenuation? With external antennas you can put
one or more calibrated attenuator in the cable but the eTrex can't do
that. What did you do?
There are of course other things that can affect the loss of lock. The
receiver hardware may be different and the software of one unit may be
less tolerant of poor signal to noise ratio than another.
> I would
>say the difference in antenna gain is in the order of 2 db or so, but
>quantification is quite difficult without a laboratory setup.
I was hoping for some hard evidence. How do you come to the 2dB
conclusion?
>
>This is to be expected as antenna aperature is a large indicator of gain
>in all antennas. When you get any antenna to less than half wave size,
>(or 1/4 wave as a ground plane) and then "load" it to resonance, the
>gain of the antenna goes down as the size decreases relative to "full
>size".
>
>Joe Mehaffey
>
>Dominic Sexton wrote:
>>
>>
>> Is the antenna in the eTrex actually smaller than, for instance, that in
>> the Garmin GPS12?
>>
Still no answer to this question? It would be nice if people with access
to a dismantled 12 series and eTrex series to post the measurements of
the antenna.
Garmin state that the antenna in the eTrex is the same as in the 12...