Vulcans in Enterprise
Daniel J. Ellis
portrayal of the Vulcan species.
I was just wondering what you guys all think of that.
DJE
Timo S Saloniemi
Mainly that I don't see a change at all. Vulcans were always portrayed
as condescending assholes who twisted the concept of logic to suit
their purposes, and unconvincingly pretended not to have emotions.
Certain individuals were a bit more complex, usually when they were
main characters like Spock or Tuvok. Others were even more assholistic
than the ENT average, but only appeared for a grand total of five minutes
or so.
The main difference between ENT and the other shows in this respect is
that Vulcans in the 22nd century are an independent political operator.
We get to see their assholism in action on an interstellar level now.
In TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY Vulcan was only a minor part of the UFP and
was not really active in the wider political theater, certain individual
diplomats notwithstanding.
That, and the difference that in ENT, we finally get to see Vulcan
ships. Which kick ass. Which is a bad thing in the eyes of some,
because it's the heroes who are supposed to kick ass.
Timo Saloniemi
Keith Morrison
Actually, there hasn't. There's been a change from the portrayal of
Vulcan by as defined Spock and Sarek.
Prior to "Entprise", what Vulcans did you see who actually had roles
where they did something?
The Original Series: "Amok Time", with assorted deviousness on the part
of T'Pring and a pretty arrogant T'Pau.
Films 2,3,4 and 6. In 2,3 and 4, Saavik who was pretty upstanding, but
6 had Valeris who was sneaky, underhanded and murdered two men personally
as well as conspiring to start a war.
The Next Generation: A basic mix. There's the highly moral Sarek and
Spock, but Sarek's assistant was bending the truth until found out. There
was Robin Curtis's Vulcan-pretending-to-be-Romulan who (we are informed)
was merely one of a significant group of disguntled Vulcans.
On DS9, there were Vulcan members of the Maquis smuggling weapons and
doing all sorts of not-nice stuff.
On Voyager, while Tuvok was generally okay, he also would lie like a
trooper (he was working undercover initially, remember), steal, cheat
and generally rationalize his way into all sorts of questionable
behaviour.
So there isn't actually that much of a change at all.
--
Keith
Cyril Meynier
I wonder wheter they know who are the Romulans.
If yes, this mean they lied to humans a century along, and this can
have been an additional reason for them not to help earth, Andor and
Tellar during Rom war.
It seems almost impossible to keep a secret like that : all the vulcan
would know, and noone tell it to a human, in spite of decades of close
relationship?
Daniel J. Ellis
DJE
"Cyril Meynier" <meynier.cyril@//non_aus_pam//wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:uid1fvg8h4e3hhvol...@4ax.com...
Ruediger LANDMANN
: portrayal of the Vulcan species.
: I was just wondering what you guys all think of that.
I agree with the others who have responded to this - Vulcans in TOS were
always portrayed as a little aloof if not downright arrogant. I don't
think their portrayal in ENT is any different. The Vulcans in ENT are
different from *Spock*, but he was a pretty atypical Vulcan, inasmuch as
he even was a Vulcan...
Think of:
Sarek putting down the Tellarite ambassador in Journey to Babel,
T'Pau's attitude to Spock in Amok Time,
The Masters of Gol in TMP
Spock and Saavik's "He's very human" dialogue in TWOK - Spock was probably
kidding, but Saavik sure wasn't...
They're a pretty snooty lot :)
Keith Morrison
> I agree with the others who have responded to this - Vulcans in TOS were
> always portrayed as a little aloof if not downright arrogant. I don't
> think their portrayal in ENT is any different. The Vulcans in ENT are
> different from *Spock*, but he was a pretty atypical Vulcan, inasmuch as
> he even was a Vulcan...
Take a real world example. A century ago a British naval officer could
sail into port virtually anywhere in the world and expect to receive a
great deal of respect because, after all, he was an officer in the British
Empire, commander of one of His Majesty's Ships and quite prepared to
boot native ass is so required. Nowdays, said officer would try to be
visible behind the bulk of a US Navy carrier battle group and tend to
have a more modest view of himself and his role in the world.
Replace "Britain" with "Vulcan" and "American" with "Human" and there's
your real-world version.
--
Keith
Ruediger LANDMANN
: Ruediger LANDMANN wrote:
: Replace "Britain" with "Vulcan" and "American" with "Human" and there's
: your real-world version.
An interesting analogy, because the way I see it, that Old World/New World
clash seems to be one of the main tensions underlying that *other* SF
franchise (at least in the "classic" trilogy) - right down to using
British actors for Imperial officers and Americans for the Rebels.
Jack Bohn
Both were written in and for the US by natives in the middle of a
period of US ascendancy. I wouldn't read more into it than that.
Trek seems fairly explicit about Earth/Federation being US/NATO
(and the Klingons were Russia from day one through TNG and ST VI)
The other, altho based on WWII combat footage, seems to have no
exact historical parallel.
--
-Jack
Fdskljds
>clash seems to be one of the main tensions underlying that *other* SF
>franchise (at least in the "classic" trilogy) - right down to using
>British actors for Imperial officers and Americans for the Rebels.
For the first film, at least, I'd put that down *mostly* to convenience.
The film was American, so American stars were required for *most* of the hero
roles (Sir Alec Guinness was not American nor, IIRC, were the droids or the
Wookiee). There may have been other British Rebels; perhaps Janson, Dodonna,
and Mon Mothma?
The soundstages were in Britain, so Brits were hired for the minor roles there
-- it would've been prohibitively expensive to ship an actor across the
Atlantic just so he could run down a hallway shouting, "Close the blast doors!"
Things may have changed in later movies, after the pattern was set by the first
one.
CDA
TROC
CaptJosh
And if you think about it, the Romulans fit the bill for Communist China.
StAkAr Karnak
> Trek seems fairly explicit about Earth/Federation being US/NATO (and
the Klingons were Russia from day one through TNG and ST VI)
I've thought/heard about these archetypes in Trek before. Here are a
few that have been mentioned at one time or another:
Humanity = Americans
Vulcans = British
Starfleet = NATO
Federation = United Nations
Klingons = Russians
Romulans = Chinese
Cardassians = Nazis
Bajorans = Jews
Ferengi = American commercialism
Any others? What about the Borg and the Dominion?
- StAkAr Karnak
***
http://www.geocities.com/glakandar/dime.html
Visit the Marvel Chronology Project!
http://www.chronologyproject.com
When all is said and done, more is said than done. - anonymous
fozzi bear
>
> On Jun 19, 2003, Jack Bohn spake:
>
> > Trek seems fairly explicit about Earth/Federation being US/NATO (and
> the Klingons were Russia from day one through TNG and ST VI)
>
> I've thought/heard about these archetypes in Trek before. Here are a
> few that have been mentioned at one time or another:
>
> Humanity = Americans
> Vulcans = British
> Starfleet = NATO
> Federation = United Nations
> Klingons = Russians
> Romulans = Chinese
> Cardassians = Nazis
> Bajorans = Jews
> Ferengi = American commercialism
>
> Any others? What about the Borg and the Dominion?
>
Borg (too easy) Microsoft
Dominion is a harder on though, best analogy I can come up with
is archaic Persia (specific races expected to perform specific
tasks) the analogy is a poor one though so its prob wrong.
Cheers
Fozzi
Cyril Meynier
<fozzi...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>Dominion is a harder on though, best analogy I can come up with
>is archaic Persia (specific races expected to perform specific
>tasks) the analogy is a poor one though so its prob wrong.
Or maybe south american substance cartels.
Cyril Meynier
Karnak) wrote:
>
>Humanity = Americans
>Vulcans = British
>Starfleet = NATO
>Federation = United Nations
>Klingons = Russians
>Romulans = Chinese
>Cardassians = Nazis
>Bajorans = Jews
>Ferengi = American commercialism
And Risa = France?
GeneK
"fozzi bear" <fozzi...@optusnet.com.au> wrote...
> Dominion is a harder on though, best analogy I can come up with
> is archaic Persia (specific races expected to perform specific
> tasks) the analogy is a poor one though so its prob wrong.
The Dominion is easy. It's the personification of the "evil enemy" that
every government tells its people it's protecting them from. The Founders'
ability to shapeshift enables every govt to recreate the Dominion in any
form it needs to be to satisfy its peoples' need for an outside enemy to
unite against.
As for the original list, I think the Vulcans are actually the French.
Nobody else has developed the art of being contemptuous toward
people who pull their cookies out of the fire for them to such a high
level.
GeneK
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Cyril Meynier
Karnak) wrote:
>Humanity = Americans
>Vulcans = British
>Starfleet = NATO
>Federation = United Nations
>Klingons = Russians
>Romulans = Chinese
>Cardassians = Nazis
>Bajorans = Jews
>Ferengi = American commercialism
I often see Cardassians as chinese and Bajorans as Tibet (a peaceful,
comtemplative people, with a fascinating culture but not advanced
technically).
Cory C. Albrecht
>Humanity = Americans
>Vulcans = British
>Starfleet = NATO
>Federation = United Nations
>Klingons = Russians
This one was rather obvious back in TOS, and, IIRC, GR even admitted to
that patterning. But I think it was the only one for which there was a
clear case of patterning.
>Romulans = Chinese
>Cardassians = Nazis
>Bajorans = Jews
>Ferengi = American commercialism
The one you always hear talked about and inciting cries of racism is the
Ferengi being the Jews. For centuries in Christian Europe, Jews were
limited in what property they could own and what types businesses they
were allowed to run. Being an actor was one such job, and a moneylender
was another. A moneylender was seen as a somewhat slimy career so you
let the heathen Jews do it so good Christians wouldn't have to. The end
result was some very rich people became the the most visible Jews, even
if it wasn't indicative of all, and thus we have the stereotype of today
that all Jews are wealthy.
IMNSHO, the people who make the claim that Ferengis are Jews are people
who are envious of the economic stereotype which enhances some
anti-semitism they learned while growing up. These are often the same
people who believe that all the truly powerful actors, directors,
producers, etc... are Jewish.
And if we want to believe that consipiracy theory then it makes
absolutely no sense for Jews to portray themselves in such unflattering
light.
And to get back on topic, whether or not some Star Trek species actually
equals some ethnic group, organization or country here in the real
world, we have to remember that the global policial climate has changed
drastically since most of the species were introduced. So the parallels
don't hold any more, if they ever existed at all.
--
Go and rate all 7 seasons of Buffy the Vampire Slayer!
http://www.sentex.net/~corya/PETW/
Cory C. Albrecht
Cyril Meynier
Albrecht) wrote:
>
>IMNSHO, the people who make the claim that Ferengis are Jews are people
For me, Ferengis are a represation of the twentieth century's mankind.
Selfishness, sexism, obcession with profit... This is nearly said by
quark in a ds9 episode.
And, proheminently (dos this word exist in english?), Picard says this
in an early TNG episode. IIRC, he was speaking with Q.
>who are envious of the economic stereotype which enhances some
>anti-semitism they learned while growing up. These are often the same
>people who believe that all the truly powerful actors, directors,
>producers, etc... are Jewish.
>
>And if we want to believe that consipiracy theory then it makes
>absolutely no sense for Jews to portray themselves in such unflattering
>light.
This must be a small conspiracy inside the big conspiracy :-)
GeneK
"Cyril Meynier" <meynier.cyril@//non_aus_pam//wanadoo.fr> wrote...
> I often see Cardassians as chinese and Bajorans as Tibet (a peaceful,
> comtemplative people, with a fascinating culture but not advanced
> technically).
The Cardassian/Bajoran situation was introduced in a TNG episode in
1991, just 2 years after the USSR withdrew from Afghanistan. I thought
the similarity unmistakable.
CaptJosh
The Dominion is closer to the Nazis than Cardassia is. After all, the
Dominion actually tried to commit genocide on the Cardies in the end,
whereas the Cardies just wanted to enslave the Bajorans to mine and process
ore and be their whores. It was more like the bajorans were being used in
the role of African Slaves, IMO. Cardassia might fit the billet of the CSA,
with the Federation comming in and freeing the slaves. It's not that
Cardassians particularly wanted to kill bajorans, it's that they were
entirely indifferent to the fate of their slaves. The funny thing is that
later they end up playing the part of the Jews when the Dominion orders
their slaughter. And Damar's resistance is kind of like the Polish Jews in
the Warsaw ghetto. But that's just my take on it.
CaptJosh
Daniel J. Ellis
djE
"Cyril Meynier" <meynier.cyril@//non_aus_pam//wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:vi49fvs61dhgu5oi8...@4ax.com...
Daniel J. Ellis
earning money for nothing, or somesuch. Hence earning profit from
moneylending was considered blasphemous (SP?) or at least your ever popular
"Abomination against the Bible."
Because of this Jews became moneylenders because they're not restrited by
the New Testament and that was the situation throughout most of the
mediaeval ages, except for the occasion holocaust (first one was when the
Jews of England presented Richard I with a sword to honour his coronoation -
the London citizenry took exception to this, ro simply, honestly
misunderstood it given the symbology of giving/receiving blades as gifts)
and mass expulsions (one of the Edwards, pos Richard III).
Anyway, we're told what Ferengi are almost before we see them: Yankee
traders.
I'd agree with the Cardassians bebing white slave traders from the 18th
Century
DJE
"Cory C. Albrecht" <coryal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3ef4...@news.sentex.net...
Cyril Meynier
<capt...@phantos.subspacelink.com> wrote:
>
>The Dominion is closer to the Nazis than Cardassia is.
I globally agree. Note that there is another historical source for the
dominion : the assasins sect.
This medieval sect used drug addiction to keep fanatic soldier under
control :
http://www.geocities.com/skews_me/assassin.html
Daniel J. Ellis
correct) but I would suggest that "significantly" or perhaps "tellingly"
would be a better choice of word.
DJE
"Cyril Meynier" <meynier.cyril@//non_aus_pam//wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:aaf9fvk311kn7id6c...@4ax.com...
fozzi bear
>
> My understanding is that there's a throw-away line in the Bilbe about not
> earning money for nothing, or somesuch. Hence earning profit from
> moneylending was considered blasphemous (SP?) or at least your ever popular
> "Abomination against the Bible."
>
Sort of, there is an instruction that if you lend money you should only
ever claim back what you lent and nothing more.
Cheers
Fozzi
Keith Morrison
> My understanding is that there's a throw-away line in the Bilbe about not
> earning money for nothing, or somesuch. Hence earning profit from
> moneylending was considered blasphemous (SP?) or at least your ever popular
> "Abomination against the Bible."
>
> Because of this Jews became moneylenders because they're not restrited by
> the New Testament and that was the situation throughout most of the
> mediaeval ages, except for the occasion holocaust (first one was when the
> Jews of England presented Richard I with a sword to honour his coronoation -
> the London citizenry took exception to this, ro simply, honestly
> misunderstood it given the symbology of giving/receiving blades as gifts)
> and mass expulsions (one of the Edwards, pos Richard III).
Actually, there are several condemnations of usury (charging interest)
in the Old Testament as well. What usually happens is that banks or
individuals usually find theological loopholes they can get through
if they stay religious.
The situation of the Jewish population in Europe was that they
provided a convenient way of keeping the economy going while the
Christian governments and church could pretend that such things
were wrong. While pogroms against Jews were always there, it's
been noted that some of them happened suspiciously close to times
when governments had run up large debts financing a war or such.
Or, in other words: "Usury is a sin! Those who demand interest
on debts should be run out of town! Especially since we owe them
money!"
--
Keith
Dwayne Day
In article <bd3t7n$t2r$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Daniel J. Ellis"
<daniel...@softhome.net> wrote:
> Anyway, we're told what Ferengi are almost before we see them: Yankee
> traders.
The Ferengi, when first introduced, were really a joke. Gene Roddenberry
became rather insanely left wing in his latter years and the first Ferengi
were compared, very unfavorably, to capitalists. It was an absurd
caricature and Riker's supposed admiration for them all the more strange.
Fortunately, they later became slightly more dimensional, but not much.
DDAY
CaptJosh
I am aware of the Assassins. Their most famous learder was a man named
Hassan. During the height of their power, they controlled the politics of
both Europe and Asia Minor(The Arabian Penninsula, Turkey, and Persia).
CaptJosh
CaptJosh
Usury is not the charging of interest. It is the charging of unreasonably
high interest. Unfortunately, the credit card companies are getting away
with it, scot free. And if you're referring to the new testament of the
bible about lending, it says that when you give, give with no expectation of
any return. And in another place, "Give, and it be given unto you, pressed
down, shaken together, and running over." To put in it more modern
phraseology, whatever you give, you will get much more back, stuffed into
the container, shaken up, and overflowing. Note that it is whatever you
give. So if you give pain(and no I'm not talking about the pain from a
surgery), expect to get much more pain back in your life than you ever gave
out.
CaptJosh
Ruediger LANDMANN
: Usury is not the charging of interest. It is the charging of unreasonably
: high interest.
Well, you're half-right. That's what they word means *today*, but for most
of Christian history, it referred to earning interest of any kind.
: Unfortunately, the credit card companies are getting away
: with it, scot free.
And why not? If people on the whole felt that the interest rates and other
terms of their cards were unreasonable, they would hardly be as
widely popular as they are today. Like anything else in a (mostly) free
market, the price of credit is regulated mostly by supply and demand.
Timo S Saloniemi
>Cyril Meynier wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 02:13:07 +1000, fozzi bear
>> <fozzi...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>> Dominion is a harder on though, best analogy I can come up with
>>> is archaic Persia (specific races expected to perform specific
>>> tasks) the analogy is a poor one though so its prob wrong.
>> Or maybe south american substance cartels.
Interesting levels of connection there, with the pseudo-Aztec names
for the Jem'Hadar...
>The Dominion is closer to the Nazis than Cardassia is. After all, the
>Dominion actually tried to commit genocide on the Cardies in the end,
>whereas the Cardies just wanted to enslave the Bajorans to mine and process
>ore and be their whores.
Ah, but the Nazi stereotype is not one of mere genocidal conquest -
too many "civilizations" in Earth history can lay claim to that. The
Nazi stereotype relies heavily on goose-stepping, uniform fetish,
ruthless secret police, and an incoherent bureaucratic mess of a society,
with some cruel and irrational racial contempt thrown in. That is
a bit more specific than the general, generic image of evil (although
it still doesn't completely differentiate the Nazis from, say, Stalinist
USSR).
So which of the two villaindoms is closer to the image in the end? The
Cardassians, who claim genocide is "a day's work" for them? The Dominion,
for which the hatred of Solids is codified into a religion of sorts?
I'd still say Cardassia, because the role of propaganda is so much more
central there. The Dominion in general does not know it should be hating
the Solids (in fact, it mostly *consists* of Solids, and doesn't know
its true rulers!). The citizens of the Union in turn are rigorously
taught to loathe their lessers and to direct their anger outwards. That's
something the audience can immediately associate with: "Hey, I saw that
in the war movie last night!" "Yeah, and in that Brit costume drama
on Monday, too!" "And on Discovery Channel!"
The Dominion in turn rides on a different set of associations. It's
all myth and magic, old Central American style names for invisible
warriors, evil spells to keep minions at the beck and call of shape-
shifting god-leaders. It's weird instead of familiar, all "Indiana
Jones and the Temple of Doom" instead of "Schindler's List". Evil
nevertheless, of course, but coupled to a more distant and exotic
past.
>It was more like the bajorans were being used in the role of African
>Slaves, IMO. Cardassia might fit the billet of the CSA, with the
>Federation comming in and freeing the slaves. It's not that
>Cardassians particularly wanted to kill bajorans, it's that they were
>entirely indifferent to the fate of their slaves.
But conversely, it's not that the UFP was very enthusiastic or
active in "freeing the slaves" or anything. It's just something that
fell on their laps when they traded some taps with their old enemies
in "Chain of Command" and to their surprise saw them go down as if
with a glass jaw. Seeing Sisko handle the Bajorans at first was like
seeing a guy after a bar fight realize that he's partially guilty of
the pool of vomit around that other guy on the floor...
>The funny thing is that later they end up playing the part of the Jews
>when the Dominion orders their slaughter.
That could also be seen as a continuation of Nazi imagery, of course.
Those folks were also slaughtered in the end. Except that their
goetterdammerung days didn't really involve pacts with the devil, or
the uprising of heroic resistance fighters from within.
>And Damar's resistance is kind of like the Polish Jews in
>the Warsaw ghetto. But that's just my take on it.
Probably the writers', too. But why stop at a single analogy or
metaphor when you can have dozens at the same price? An evil character
or organization can be conveniently made to represent many facets of
evil, real and mythical, and IMHO the writers got excellent mileage
out of the Cardassians in this respect.
Timo Saloniemi
Cyril Meynier
<capt...@phantos.subspacelink.com> wrote:
>The Dominion is closer to the Nazis than Cardassia is. After all, the
>Dominion actually tried to commit genocide on the Cardies in the end,
>whereas the Cardies just wanted to enslave the Bajorans to mine and process
>ore and be their whores.
Then we could get something loke :
- Dominion = nazis
- Cadies = Polish
- Bajoran = jews.
The polish hated the jews and treated them bad, but without mass
murders. The nazis slaughtered both jewish and non-jewish polishes.
Cyril Meynier
>
>
>The Cardassian/Bajoran situation was introduced in a TNG episode in
>1991, just 2 years after the USSR withdrew from Afghanistan. I thought
>the similarity unmistakable.
Another hypothesys.
This thread was from american POV, this is obviously the writers'
purpose.
Now, from french POV, this is diffrent :
- humanity = french.
- Federation = European union
- Vulcans = british, unchanged.
- Andorian = German : they are trustworthy, but, in the past, special
circonstances made them *very* violent.
- Romulan = USA. They've got Vulcan/British origins. Relations remain
uneasy despite decades of peace and alliance in Dominion war. The
Vulcan are closer to them.
- Risa = Tahiti :-)
Timo S Saloniemi
>On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 00:34:54 -0700, "CaptJosh"
><capt...@phantos.subspacelink.com> wrote:
>
>>The Dominion is closer to the Nazis than Cardassia is. After all, the
>>Dominion actually tried to commit genocide on the Cardies in the end,
>>whereas the Cardies just wanted to enslave the Bajorans to mine and process
>>ore and be their whores.
>Then we could get something like :
>- Dominion = nazis
>- Cadies = Polish
>- Bajoran = jews.
>The polish hated the jews and treated them bad, but without mass
>murders. The nazis slaughtered both jewish and non-jewish polishes.
It's risky to get that specific. And one major thing about Cardassians
is that they Conquered and Occupied, which rules out several historical
candidates. The Poles can hardly be accused of being conquerors for the
past 200 years - quite the opposite, in fact.
An ideal Cardassian analogy would be a small-time fascist bunch
overshadowed by the far greater evil of the Dominion later on. Say,
the Italians or the Spanish of the suitable pre-WWII timeframe.
We could then have the militarily more powerful UFP act out the role
of the League of Nations or the British Empire or the US, whichever
suits the occasion. And the further "pact with the devil" development
would cast either the Nazis or the Stalinists in the role of
the Dominion.
But that doesn't much change the fact that whenever there is an
evil militant character, society or organization in a movie or TV show,
it's supposed to be the Nazis on some level. Add an even more
menacing militant character and he, too, is supposed to be the Nazis,
just more so. Any finesse added to that just confuses the basic issue.
Timo Saloniemi
Cyril Meynier
<fozzi...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>
>Borg (too easy) Microsoft
there is a politically-biased leftist theory : borg = globalization.
http://www.globaled.org/issues/158/b.html
http://paddy42.tripod.com/Newsletter/Global.htm
Daniel J. Ellis
but ended up being incorrectly written for this role (consider Picard's
reaction to the threat of Farpoint station being taken to the Ferengi!).
As is inevitable when a member of a group becomes a regular character
(Quark), the Ferengi were "fleshed out" as a result of Quark having been.
DJE
"Dwayne Day" <zirc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:m7pJa.8291$C83.7...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Cyril Meynier
<daniel...@softhome.net> wrote:
>Apparently they were written to be the new Klingons (i.e. the serious enemy)
>but ended up being incorrectly written for this role (consider Picard's
>reaction to the threat of Farpoint station being taken to the Ferengi!).
In early TNG, it was shedule to remove virtually all TOS spacies
(except humans). Even vulcans, klingons and romulans.
Fan reactions made them reintroduce TOS species, at least the trhree
big ones (Andorian and Tellarite were nearly absent in tng era, one of
the rare good news in Enterprise is there resurrection).
Ferengi were the first attempt for a new ennemy. Klingons were
reintroduced, but as more or less allies (STVI : TUC was made to
explain that).
Since ferengis were not credible, they created the Cardies.
A total lack of TOS aliens would have been a disaster in terms of
continuity. I imagine the long threads in this NG "What happened to
the Vulcans? What about the Klingons?"
Graham Kennedy
> Apparently they were written to be the new Klingons (i.e. the serious enemy)
> but ended up being incorrectly written for this role (consider Picard's
> reaction to the threat of Farpoint station being taken to the Ferengi!).
>
> As is inevitable when a member of a group becomes a regular character
> (Quark), the Ferengi were "fleshed out" as a result of Quark having been.
>
They mention this in the DS9 DVDs; the Ferengi were created
as the new Big Bad of the Trek universe. The quote was along
the lines of "this worked worse than almost anything else in
Trek history". So they re-cast them as pretty much the comic
relief element.
How did they ever expect to have a threatening enemy who
averaged like five feet tall? Not to mention being
astoundingly stupid on top.
--
Graham Kennedy
Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org
CaptJosh
> Daniel J. Ellis wrote:
>> Apparently they were written to be the new Klingons (i.e. the
>> serious enemy) but ended up being incorrectly written for this role
>> (consider Picard's reaction to the threat of Farpoint station being
>> taken to the Ferengi!).
>>
>> As is inevitable when a member of a group becomes a regular character
>> (Quark), the Ferengi were "fleshed out" as a result of Quark having
>> been.
>>
>
> They mention this in the DS9 DVDs; the Ferengi were created
> as the new Big Bad of the Trek universe. The quote was along
> the lines of "this worked worse than almost anything else in
> Trek history". So they re-cast them as pretty much the comic
> relief element.
>
> How did they ever expect to have a threatening enemy who
> averaged like five feet tall? Not to mention being
> astoundingly stupid on top.
Not only astoundingly stupid, but incredibly greedy, which only multiplied
their stupidity.
CaptJosh
Graham Kennedy
In TNG the Ferengi's greed was shown in an amazingly silly
way - it was entirely short term, for instance. You could
see those Ferengi robbing your wallet for $50, and thus
blowing a deal that would have netted them $50,000. I could
never believe such short term thinkers could be a serious
species - hell, how would they ever get their ships built?
A whole load of people have to work together for something
like that.
Quark was far more sophisticated about his greed. He was a
Ferengi you could (indeed did) see playing the medium and
long game, investing to accumulate.
Daniel J. Ellis
degree.
A similar proceess happened with Klingons between TOS and TNG
DJE
"Graham Kennedy" <gra...@ditl.org> wrote in message
news:3EF777D9...@ditl.org...
Noname
>down, shaken together, and running over." To put in it more modern
>phraseology, whatever you give, you will get much more back, stuffed into
>the container, shaken up, and overflowing. Note that it is whatever you
>give. So if you give pain(and no I'm not talking about the pain from a
>surgery), expect to get much more pain back in your life than you ever gave
>out.
>
>CaptJosh
Recently someone explained this quote to me. It turns out it applies to the
(then criminal) practice of not compressing grain when trading it. Back
then, grain was traded per volume. So if you just poured the grain into a
jar without pressing it down, shaking it, and running it over, you could
fill more jars of grain, and then you could buy more.
People in biblical times would have understood that 'pressing down, shaking
and running over' refered to grain. So it has little to do with getting from
the world what you give to the world, but it has everything to do with being
a fair buisnessman. What the bible says here is: 'don't attempt to cheat
others when making deals'. Nothing more, nothing less.
Cyril Meynier
Albrecht) wrote:
>The one you always hear talked about and inciting cries of racism is the
>Ferengi being the Jews.
Imagine the writers have a strongly pro-palestinian POV. Then we may
have :
- Son'a = Israeli
- Bak'u = Palestinian
Cyril Meynier
<kei...@polarnet.ca> wrote:
>
>So there isn't actually that much of a change at all.
Well, what changed is that until now mind-meld was a capability all
(or at least most) vulcans have. Now there is only a smaal minority of
telepaths, and they are seen as "unnatural" - sounds like the telepath
minority among humans in Babylon5.
Well, maybe are they in fact all able to do it, but some have a
mutation so that it is easy and natural for them, while the others
have to learn. And someday between ENT and TOs this became morally
accepted.
After all, taking a bath was seen as something immoral and unhealthy
in 1900 in Europe.
Mind-meld bring deseases here, while it was expectied to heal Tuvok.
Dwayne Day
In article <a19hfv86ent3no5lf...@4ax.com>, Cyril Meynier
<meynier.cyril@//non_aus_pam//wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>>The one you always hear talked about and inciting cries of racism is the
>>Ferengi being the Jews.
>
> Imagine the writers have a strongly pro-palestinian POV. Then we may
> have :
> - Son'a = Israeli
> - Bak'u = Palestinian
I seem to remember reading that the original idea for the Bajorans was that
they were going to be the Palestinians--always pushed out of their homeland.
I don't think that this archetype survived very long, however.
DDAY
Ryan McReynolds
> I seem to remember reading that the original idea for the Bajorans was
that
> they were going to be the Palestinians--always pushed out of their
homeland.
> I don't think that this archetype survived very long, however.
In "Ensign Ro," there was definitely the impression that they were at least
partially exiled to various star systems.
Ryan
Timo S Saloniemi
A singularly poor analogy, since the major thing about those two was that
they were related, with the former the sundered offspring of the latter.
Won't work within a reasonable timeframe.
History is full of examples of peoples trying to forcibly relocate
peoples. And usually succeeding. It is relatively seldom that the
former descend from the latter, though. We'd have to fish deep for
an analogy that combines the "out of Africa" anthropology theories
with the black slave trade...
No, here for once the writers came up with a relatively novel concept
of villainy - even if it does combine a lot of cliches, like the bad
guys being defined by their ugliness and implied sexual appetite and
other hedonism, when the good guys live like new age monks and dress
in natural fibers. At least it is a fresh combination.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo S Saloniemi
>Well, what changed is that until now mind-meld was a capability all
>(or at least most) vulcans have. Now there is only a smaal minority of
>telepaths, and they are seen as "unnatural" - sounds like the telepath
>minority among humans in Babylon5.
>Well, maybe are they in fact all able to do it, but some have a
>mutation so that it is easy and natural for them, while the others
>have to learn. And someday between ENT and TOS this became morally
>accepted.
Or then TOS and TNG selectively showed the minority, which had
indeed become socially palatable yet no larger than it was in ENT.
It might be that the touch telepaths would be the ones to go for
diplomatic and space exploration jobs, where broad communication
skills are a big plus.
Timo Saloniemi
GeneK
"Cyril Meynier" <meynier.cyril@//non_aus_pam//wanadoo.fr> wrote...
> Well, what changed is that until now mind-meld was a capability all
> (or at least most) vulcans have.
I don't recall it ever being said that all Vulcans could mindmeld. Initially,
Spock said merely that it was something not spoken of and "deeply personal"
to the Vulcan people, but that could just mean they don't like to admit that
they used to discriminate against those with the ability. Maybe mindmelding
Vulcans *still* feel uncomfortable at home, which would explain why they
end up in Starfleet. BTW, how many Vulcans have we actually *seen*
perform a mindmeld? I can offhand think of Spock, Tuvok and now
whoever's doing it on Enterprise (which I'm not watching). We've seen
other Vulcans doing telepathic-sorta things, like reading other people's
thoughts and getting bonded for Pon Farr, but Vulcans who do a full-on
mindmeld don't strike me as having been all that common.
GeneK
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Timo S Saloniemi
>BTW, how many Vulcans have we actually *seen* perform a mindmeld? I can
>offhand think of Spock, Tuvok and now whoever's doing it on Enterprise
>(which I'm not watching).
Sarek did it a couple of times - might be a family trait. Saavik in ST3,
Sarek's aide in TNG "Sarek" and Vorik in VOY "Blood Fever" did some
Vulcan mystic mumbo-jumbo with their fingers, but probably didn't fully
meld. The Maquis lady Saakona unsuccessfully tried to meld with Dukat
using the traditional "my mind to your mind" chant in DS9 "The Maquis".
Against these five melders and a couple of perhaps-melders, we've seen
perhaps a dozen prominent Vulcan guest characters or limelight extras
who performed no meld magic whatsoever. And perhaps two dozen background
Vulcans - I'm not keeping a count. Whether ENT offsets this balance or
not is a matter of opinion.
>We've seen other Vulcans doing telepathic-sorta things, like reading
>other people's thoughts and getting bonded for Pon Farr, but Vulcans
>who do a full-on mindmeld don't strike me as having been all that common.
Whether that was because these other Vulcans couldn't meld, or because
they found it distasteful, or they feared they'd be punished if found out,
is another matter open to speculation... When Sarek or Saavik did their
intimate finger-rubbing schtick, it was with witnesses around (Sarek even
had Vulcan witnesses), so that probably isn't a socially unacceptable
thing. Or then Sarek just didn't care if caught petting in public. But
a Vulcan melding while other Vulcans stood witness was a very rare
occurrence indeed. The ST3 resurrection scene seems the only such incident
I can recall.
Timo Saloniemi
GeneK
"Timo S Saloniemi" <tsal...@cc.hut.fi> wrote...
> Whether that was because these other Vulcans couldn't meld, or because
> they found it distasteful, or they feared they'd be punished if found out,
> is another matter open to speculation... When Sarek or Saavik did their
> intimate finger-rubbing schtick, it was with witnesses around (Sarek even
> had Vulcan witnesses), so that probably isn't a socially unacceptable
> thing.
But is that mind-melding, as in "your mind to mine," "our minds become one,"
etc.? I don't think so. The Sarek & Saavik things looked like plain old
garden-variety telepathic communication, or that Ponn Farr bonding thing,
both of which - particularly the Ponn Farr bonding thing - could be fairly
common, but in neither of those cases did the two people involved start
mumbling in synch.
GeneK
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Cyril Meynier
<daniel...@softhome.net> wrote:
>With Enterprsie there has *seemingly* been a very great change in the
>portrayal of the Vulcan species.
>
>I was just wondering what you guys all think of that.
Globally, i tyhink the vulcans are reused by ENT writers as a
caricature of reactionnary societies.
They pretend to have no emotions - my foot.
They defend IDIC but practise eugenism - gosh.
They prentend they mate only once every seven years - haha.
They are intolerant.
They are some kind a allegory of hypocrite puritans. Like old-day
brittain, radical islamists <troll> or the guys who wanted to impeacvh
clinton </trol>.
Melders and "emotional vulcans" are, to some extend, a hippy movement
(with its abuse) that will finally vanish, but will make vulcan
society more tolerant
Only personal view of course.
Dwayne Day
In article <m72jfv8sombre3ai6...@4ax.com>, Cyril Meynier
<meynier.cyril@//non_aus_pam//wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> Globally, i tyhink the vulcans are reused by ENT writers as a
> caricature of reactionnary societies.
> They pretend to have no emotions - my foot.
> They defend IDIC but practise eugenism - gosh.
> They prentend they mate only once every seven years - haha.
> They are intolerant.
> They are some kind a allegory of hypocrite puritans. Like old-day
> brittain, radical islamists <troll> or the guys who wanted to impeacvh
> clinton </trol>.
> Melders and "emotional vulcans" are, to some extend, a hippy movement
> (with its abuse) that will finally vanish, but will make vulcan
> society more tolerant
Well, I think that it may not be as contrived as this. Ultimately we're
dealing with multiple stories written by multiple people (often committees)
over a period of decades. The reality is that the Vulcans have been
whatever someone wanted them to be at any one time and nobody was terribly
worried about consistency.
A few of the novels have done a great job with fleshing out the Vulcans.
Rarely has anything on screen been that interesting.
DDAY
Dwayne Day
In article <bdbb2q$558$1...@nntp.hut.fi>, tsal...@cc.hut.fi (Timo S Saloniemi)
wrote:
> No, here for once the writers came up with a relatively novel concept
> of villainy - even if it does combine a lot of cliches, like the bad
> guys being defined by their ugliness and implied sexual appetite and
> other hedonism, when the good guys live like new age monks and dress
> in natural fibers. At least it is a fresh combination.
I remember reading a review once that took note of the cliches and how movie
really reflected Hollywood's superficial image of the world--the good guys
wear sandals and cotton and are all beautiful, whereas the evil guys commit
one of the all-time Hollywood sins: they have bad skin.
The movie was a joke. Just a major disappointment.
DDAY
Dwayne Day
In article <oK8Ka.10655$Xb....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>, "Ryan McReynolds"
<ryanmcr...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> I seem to remember reading that the original idea for the Bajorans was
> that
>> they were going to be the Palestinians--always pushed out of their
> homeland.
>> I don't think that this archetype survived very long, however.
>
> In "Ensign Ro," there was definitely the impression that they were at least
> partially exiled to various star systems.
Yeah, that's it. I seem to remember reading at the time that the writers
planned on exploring this idea a lot more. But the actress who played Ro
was not really interested in continuing that role (she has since worked on
"Homicide" as a coroner for a couple of years and recently played the
President's aide on "24"). So they just dropped the idea. When the
Bajorans showed up again, they were generally confined to their homeworld.
DDAY
Cory C. Albrecht
>On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:56:11 -0600, Keith Morrison
><kei...@polarnet.ca> wrote:
>>So there isn't actually that much of a change at all.
>Well, what changed is that until now mind-meld was a capability all
>(or at least most) vulcans have. Now there is only a smaal minority of
>telepaths, and they are seen as "unnatural" - sounds like the telepath
>minority among humans in Babylon5.
>Well, maybe are they in fact all able to do it, but some have a
>mutation so that it is easy and natural for them, while the others
>have to learn. And someday between ENT and TOs this became morally
>accepted.
A mind meld would perforce involve the transmission of emotions, which
most Vulcans find personally distasteful, so they probably avoid it
unless necessary. From there it's a hop, not even skip and a jump, to
social distaste.
The person T'pol was infected by was one of those Vulcans open to their
emotions, so obviously he's not going to be quite so chary about a
mindmeld. At most, he'd only be nervous about mindmelding around people
who disapproved, not about nervous about mindmelding specifically.
Stigma did not say that only a minority of Vulcans are telepathic, only
that a minority of Vulcans engage in this relatively frequent
mindmelding. Just because only a minority of humans pick a wild flower
and smell it while out walking doesn't mean that only a minority of
humans have a sense of smell.
A mindmeld is analogous to going to your psychiatrist/therapist and
dumping your emotional state to be examined. What we have yet to see is
the Vulcan telepathic equivalent of saying "Hi" to a colleague when you
arrive at work in the morning.
Nothing has changed the idea that all Vulcans are generally telepathic.
--
Go and rate all 7 seasons of Buffy the Vampire Slayer!
http://www.sentex.net/~corya/PETW/
Cory C. Albrecht
StAkAr Karnak
> all Vulcans are generally telepathic.
This reminds me of the time when Spock felt the death of a ship full of
Vulcans. Have any Vulcans since reached out to each other in the force,
as it were? Or in a similar vein, have we seen Vulcans contacted by
other races telepathically? I wan to say Tuvok has experienced this,
but I can't recall where.
- StAkAr Karnak
***
http://www.geocities.com/glakandar/dime.html
Visit the Marvel Chronology Project!
http://www.chronologyproject.com
When all is said and done, more is said than done. - anonymous
Jack Bohn
>This reminds me of the time when Spock felt the death of a ship full of
>Vulcans. Have any Vulcans since reached out to each other in the force,
>as it were? Or in a similar vein, have we seen Vulcans contacted by
>other races telepathically? I wan to say Tuvok has experienced this,
>but I can't recall where.
I'm thinking of a VOY episode were an alien took over a holodeck
character, and she interacted with Harry Kim as well.
T'Pring and Spock claimed that after their bonding ritual they
were "never and always touching and touched," but that could be
merely ritual poetry. Spock claimed in "All Our Yesterdays" that
the combined force of the ancient, savage Vulcans was causing him
to find Zarabeth attractive. (Suuure, Spocko, and Kirk claimed
to have lost his memory during "The Paradise Syndrome".) (How
fast is telepathic communication? The Intrepid incident would
seem to suggest that it is about as fast as subspace, if not
faster. Is it instantaneous? If not instantaneous, do Vulcans
run a risk of exploring out to where they'd pick up the
brainwaves of their violent ancestors? Did Dr. Selar give the
next generation any trouble when they were way out "Where No One
Has Gone Before"? Or does it weaken with distance?) For one
final example, many fans take comfort in imagining Spock's
actions in "The Enterprise Incident" were influenced by being in
the midst of Romulans.
Running through TOS, we can see it started out with the idea that
Vulcans are touch telepaths. Spock seems to be searching out
pressure points on the face of Simon Van Gelder in "Dagger of the
Mind". In "A Taste of Armageddon" (I think) he projects a
distraction into an Eminiarian guard through a wall. In "The
Omega Glory" he projects a compulsion onto a Yang through his
eyes (hypnotism?). In "By Any Other Name", he tries this trick
on an Adromedan and is repulsed, but finds out that they are
really vast, multi-armed intelligences. (Let's pause for a
minute to contemplate the mechanism for this telepathy. One
might at first consider it a close observation of the subject's
reactions and feedback to his mind through muscle stimulation; a
more involved and interactive form of watching someone's face.
Then one might consider some type of nerve-to-nerve contact
forming between the two, or then some type of radiant energy
sustaining the through a gap in space. And Human, Eminiarian,
and Yang/Khom brains are similar enough to Vulcans' through the
work of the Seeders. But now we see Spock reaching a brain from
possibly beyond the Seeders' provenance -certainly not a success
of their biped breeding program. This is similar to what he does
with the "Devil in the Dark", possibly an entirely different
order of life. He seems to sense the Platonic essence of
thought.) (Another parenthetical to note that mind-reading was
not among Dr. Dehner's list of properties of ESP (if it was known
as a Vulcan sense, it would not be an extra-sensory perception).
She was talking about seeing the backs of playing cards and
such.)
Spock may have contacted the Talosians to conspire to kidnap/save
Captain Pike, but they may have initiated contact, and they have
the ability to project even to the non-telepaths in the court.
(A note that the young Spock was as susceptible as the others to
the Talosian illusions. The slightly older Spock was susceptible
to the "Man Trap"'s illusions, but slightly less to those of "The
Spectre of the Gun". He's also subject to psychic compulsion by
"Charlie X" and "Plato's Stepchildren".)
Another mind Spock seems to sense is Vejur. Sybok may have
sensed the intelligence on the other side of the Great Barrier,
but then again that intelligence may have been broadcasting
dreams of Sha-Ka-Ri all across the galaxy, and the less said
about it, the better.
--
-Jack
Dwayne Day
Albrecht) wrote:
>>Humanity = Americans
>>Vulcans = British
>>Starfleet = NATO
>>Federation = United Nations
>>Klingons = Russians
>
> This one was rather obvious back in TOS, and, IIRC, GR even admitted to
> that patterning. But I think it was the only one for which there was a
> clear case of patterning.
A female friend, who has never thought as highly of Trek as I do, has argued
that the show has always wimped out on its aliens. Trek aliens are often no
more than a single emotion or character trait writ large. So we get:
Vulcans=logic
Klingons=aggression
Romulans=deception
Ferengi=greed
Bajorans=spirituality
And so on.
The problem with this approach is that it ultimately results in very
one-dimensional races that the writers then struggle to make more
interesting. In many ways it cripples them, because they are stuck with a
cliche, not a fully-fleshed alien race.
DDAY
GeneK
> A female friend, who has never thought as highly of Trek as I do, has argued
> that the show has always wimped out on its aliens. Trek aliens are often no
> more than a single emotion or character trait writ large.
The only part of your friend's opinion I disagree with is the "always." In TOS
we saw a Romulan commander vocally question the wisdom of his orders to
test the RNZ's defenses as a prelude to war, and another deal quite straight-
forwardly with a couple of Starfleet officers who were scamming her out of
a cloaking device. We saw a Klingon commander in the heat of combat
abandon the battle when he recognized he was being used. And, of course,
we saw a half-Vulcan frequently engage in relatively illogical behavior and
admit to having emotional attachments to his shipmates. I'd say the aliens
we saw then were fairly 3-dimensional, especially for 60's TV. It's in TNG
and beyond that Trek deteriorates into a formulaic charicature of what it used
to be.
GeneK
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Graham Kennedy
> "Dwayne Day" <zirc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:NemLa.16766$C83.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
>>A female friend, who has never thought as highly of Trek as I do, has argued
>>that the show has always wimped out on its aliens. Trek aliens are often no
>>more than a single emotion or character trait writ large.
>
>
> The only part of your friend's opinion I disagree with is the "always." In TOS
> we saw a Romulan commander vocally question the wisdom of his orders to
> test the RNZ's defenses as a prelude to war, and another deal quite straight-
> forwardly with a couple of Starfleet officers who were scamming her out of
> a cloaking device. We saw a Klingon commander in the heat of combat
> abandon the battle when he recognized he was being used. And, of course,
> we saw a half-Vulcan frequently engage in relatively illogical behavior and
> admit to having emotional attachments to his shipmates. I'd say the aliens
> we saw then were fairly 3-dimensional, especially for 60's TV. It's in TNG
> and beyond that Trek deteriorates into a formulaic charicature of what it used
> to be.
Much of the point of Star Trek was to explore the Human condition.
The aliens emphasise Human traits precisely because the idea was
to tell us something about ourselves.
If you do write aliens with the full variety of Human emotions,
then you end up with aliens that are basically just Humans in
a slightly different body.
Coming up with a genuinely alien way of thinking is something
that is not at all easy to do. In fact, I hesitate to use the
word impossible but I don't think I've ever come across an
alien in SF who was genuinely alien in the way it thought.
Though no doubt I'm going to get a blizzard of corrections now... :-)
GeneK
"Graham Kennedy" <gra...@ditl.org> wrote...
> Much of the point of Star Trek was to explore the Human condition.
> The aliens emphasise Human traits precisely because the idea was
> to tell us something about ourselves.
>
> If you do write aliens with the full variety of Human emotions,
> then you end up with aliens that are basically just Humans in
> a slightly different body.
TOS's aliens always had "the full variety of Human emotions," but
were often introduced to us in ways that masked that fact until we
were suckered into thinking of them one-dimensionally. Then, we
realized, "Why, they're just like us." Unfortunately, in NewTrek
we often get aliens who start out one-dimensional and stay that
way.
> Coming up with a genuinely alien way of thinking is something
> that is not at all easy to do. In fact, I hesitate to use the
> word impossible but I don't think I've ever come across an
> alien in SF who was genuinely alien in the way it thought.
>
> Though no doubt I'm going to get a blizzard of corrections now... :-)
Not from me. The only we we're ever going to get alien characters
with "genuinely alien ways of thining" is if real aliens start submitting
script proposals.
Graham Kennedy
> "Graham Kennedy" <gra...@ditl.org> wrote...
>
>
>>Much of the point of Star Trek was to explore the Human condition.
>>The aliens emphasise Human traits precisely because the idea was
>>to tell us something about ourselves.
>>
>>If you do write aliens with the full variety of Human emotions,
>>then you end up with aliens that are basically just Humans in
>>a slightly different body.
>
>
> TOS's aliens always had "the full variety of Human emotions," but
> were often introduced to us in ways that masked that fact until we
> were suckered into thinking of them one-dimensionally. Then, we
> realized, "Why, they're just like us." Unfortunately, in NewTrek
> we often get aliens who start out one-dimensional and stay that
> way.
Alternatively, you could say that the writers create them
as one-dimensional but then get bored or lazy down the line,
and so start introducing more Human-type characteristics.
GeneK
"Graham Kennedy" <gra...@ditl.org> wrote in message news:3EFE147B...@ditl.org...
> Alternatively, you could say that the writers create them
> as one-dimensional but then get bored or lazy down the line,
> and so start introducing more Human-type characteristics.
That could be if there wasn't a point to the characters, but TOS
was fairly consistent in the way it presented an unsympathetic
character as a "bad guy," then fleshed out the situation to show
us that the character was indeed "just like us," making its point
that this was a metaphor for "us." But time and time again we
see characters in NewTrek present what *could* have been
depictions of our human faults, only to have our heroes merely
defeat them like the villains they were. I think in part that this
represented the way humanity's image in Trek had changed;
TOS presented humanity as still being on something of an
upward climb, though higher on the ladder than we are, while
NewTrek seemed intent on hammering into our heads the fact
that people in the 24th century had achieved perfection. Picard
and co seldom discovered that their side might actually be in the
wrong of a given situation, and appeared to spend their careers
roaming the galaxy telling lesser races "we were once like you."
Cyril Meynier
<zirc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Vulcans=logic
>Klingons=aggression
>Romulans=deception
>Ferengi=greed
>Bajorans=spirituality
Agree, except for Romulans. Why deception?
I would tell something like authority, or pride.
Cory C. Albrecht
>"Graham Kennedy" <gra...@ditl.org> wrote in message
> news:3EFE147B...@ditl.org...
>> Alternatively, you could say that the writers create them
>> as one-dimensional but then get bored or lazy down the line,
>> and so start introducing more Human-type characteristics.
>That could be if there wasn't a point to the characters, but TOS
>was fairly consistent in the way it presented an unsympathetic
>character as a "bad guy," then fleshed out the situation to show
>us that the character was indeed "just like us," making its point
>that this was a metaphor for "us." But time and time again we
>see characters in NewTrek present what *could* have been
>depictions of our human faults, only to have our heroes merely
>defeat them like the villains they were. I think in part that this
One character that goes against this grain, IMNSHO, is Captain Maxwell,
the former C.O. of O'Brien during Federation-Cardassian war. I think a
relatively good job was done on making him a sympathetic bad guy. I,
being a pacifist, would never agree with his actions, though when more
is revealed about him, about his family being killed by the Cardassians,
I can see how my anger might similarly drive me to such extreme actions.
But they did kind of wimp out in the end, making the Cardassians
mono-dimensional by having Picard discover that there was a kernel of
truth to what Maxwell was saying about impending Cardassian treachery.
But perhaps Maxwell doesn't count for this, since he was a human.
Graham Kennedy
> "Graham Kennedy" <gra...@ditl.org> wrote in message news:3EFE147B...@ditl.org...
>
>
>>Alternatively, you could say that the writers create them
>>as one-dimensional but then get bored or lazy down the line,
>>and so start introducing more Human-type characteristics.
>
>
> That could be if there wasn't a point to the characters, but TOS
> was fairly consistent in the way it presented an unsympathetic
> character as a "bad guy," then fleshed out the situation to show
> us that the character was indeed "just like us," making its point
> that this was a metaphor for "us." But time and time again we
> see characters in NewTrek present what *could* have been
> depictions of our human faults, only to have our heroes merely
> defeat them like the villains they were. I think in part that this
> represented the way humanity's image in Trek had changed;
> TOS presented humanity as still being on something of an
> upward climb, though higher on the ladder than we are, while
> NewTrek seemed intent on hammering into our heads the fact
> that people in the 24th century had achieved perfection. Picard
> and co seldom discovered that their side might actually be in the
> wrong of a given situation, and appeared to spend their careers
> roaming the galaxy telling lesser races "we were once like you."
It is a trend more true of TOS than TNG and beyond, I think.
Look at the Ferengi - initially intended to be pretty one note
stereotypical baddies, they only really started to grow as
characters when it became clear that their initial premise just
wasn't going to work. Same with the Cardassians, who were pretty
typical bad guys for a long time.
GeneK
"Graham Kennedy" <gra...@ditl.org> wrote...
> It is a trend more true of TOS than TNG and beyond, I think.
> Look at the Ferengi - initially intended to be pretty one note
> stereotypical baddies, they only really started to grow as
> characters when it became clear that their initial premise just
> wasn't going to work. Same with the Cardassians, who were pretty
> typical bad guys for a long time.
Ok, ya lost me here. The examples you cited are from TNG and
beyond, not TOS.
CaptJosh
Romulans have used tricks and lies more often than any other race on Trek,
or so some would lead you to believe. The funny thing is that in the TOS
era, the Romulans were the ones with Honor and the Klingons couldn't be
trusted. These Honorable Romulans are the inspiration for Diane Duane's
Rihannsu series.
CaptJosh
Timo S Saloniemi
>On Jun 26, 2003, Cory C. Albrecht spake:
>
>> all Vulcans are generally telepathic.
>
>This reminds me of the time when Spock felt the death of a ship full of
>Vulcans. Have any Vulcans since reached out to each other in the force,
>as it were? Or in a similar vein, have we seen Vulcans contacted by
>other races telepathically? I wan to say Tuvok has experienced this,
>but I can't recall where.
I doubt we've seen anything like that, really - not since Spock was
apparently contacted by V'Ger in ST:TMP. I say apparently, since the
thing about Spock receiving a "vision" of V'Ger may not have been
handled the same way in the new Director's Edition of the film...
In VOY "Counterpoint", there was this race (the Devore?) that persecuted
and hunted down telepaths, and the Voyager crew had to store their
telepaths plus some refugees in transporter stasis to avoid detection.
That sort of implies that the Devore had the ability to "scan for telepathy",
including the Vulcan variant. This might count as this race-to-race
contact you speak of. Apart from that, I doubt any Vulcan has been shown
being contacted telepathically by beings that would not have contacted
non-Vulcans, non-telepaths simultaneously. Even the 8472 only reached
Kes, not Tuvok.
Timo Saloniemi
GeneK
"CaptJosh" <capt...@phantos.subspacelink.com> wrote...
> Romulans have used tricks and lies more often than any other race on Trek,
> or so some would lead you to believe. The funny thing is that in the TOS
> era, the Romulans were the ones with Honor and the Klingons couldn't be
> trusted. These Honorable Romulans are the inspiration for Diane Duane's
> Rihannsu series.
A lot can happen to a society in 70 years or so. OTOH, the only Romulans
we ever saw in TOS were in the military, and the very first one we met didn't
seem to think much of the government that had sent him out on his mission.
Maybe he and his kind were of the old, honorable regime and were being
phased out by new and less ethical leaders.
Graham Kennedy
> "Graham Kennedy" <gra...@ditl.org> wrote...
>
>
>>It is a trend more true of TOS than TNG and beyond, I think.
>>Look at the Ferengi - initially intended to be pretty one note
>>stereotypical baddies, they only really started to grow as
>>characters when it became clear that their initial premise just
>>wasn't going to work. Same with the Cardassians, who were pretty
>>typical bad guys for a long time.
>
>
> Ok, ya lost me here. The examples you cited are from TNG and
> beyond, not TOS.
That's what I meant - I said that writers started with
one-note species and then made them more "human" as they
ran out of ideas. You said that the species were drawn
more carefully with fleshing out in mind during TOS.
I agreed and gave the TNG ones as examples of where
species like the Ferengi were clearly *not* meant to be
complex from the beginning, but got that way more or less
by accident.
Cory C. Albrecht
>In VOY "Counterpoint", there was this race (the Devore?) that persecuted
>and hunted down telepaths, and the Voyager crew had to store their
>telepaths plus some refugees in transporter stasis to avoid detection.
>That sort of implies that the Devore had the ability to "scan for telepathy",
>including the Vulcan variant. This might count as this race-to-race
>contact you speak of. Apart from that, I doubt any Vulcan has been shown
>being contacted telepathically by beings that would not have contacted
>non-Vulcans, non-telepaths simultaneously. Even the 8472 only reached
>Kes, not Tuvok.
For telepathy, my favorite "implementation" is in Julian May's Galactic
Millieu books. In that universe, telepathy (and other mind powers) are
most explicitly based in the scientific reality of that universe, and
mind-to-mind contact seems to be on a radio frequency type analog. Each
individual has their own "initmate mode" which only they can receive but
anybody else can send on to contact them. There are also species
specific broadcast modes and a "all hail" mode for anybody & everybody.
Star Trek telepathy seems be like this sometimes - Betazoids can't read
Ferengi minds, for exmaple. But most times it is much more of a magical
telepathy rather than a scientific telepathy. If we gathered all
instances of telepathy in Star Trek as show, I doubt that we could make
a coherent "theory of telepathy" to fit into trekkie bioscience.
GeneK
> That's what I meant - I said that writers started with
> one-note species and then made them more "human" as they
> ran out of ideas. You said that the species were drawn
> more carefully with fleshing out in mind during TOS.
> I agreed and gave the TNG ones as examples of where
> species like the Ferengi were clearly *not* meant to be
> complex from the beginning, but got that way more or less
> by accident.
Ah, ok. I misunderstood which "trend" you were referring to.
GeneK
Joseph Nebus
>In article <21099-3EF...@storefull-2358.public.lawson.webtv.net> Sta...@webtv.net (StAkAr Karnak) writes:
>>On Jun 26, 2003, Cory C. Albrecht spake:
>>
>>> all Vulcans are generally telepathic.
>>
>>This reminds me of the time when Spock felt the death of a ship full of
>>Vulcans. Have any Vulcans since reached out to each other in the force,
>>as it were? Or in a similar vein, have we seen Vulcans contacted by
>>other races telepathically? I wan to say Tuvok has experienced this,
>>but I can't recall where.
>I doubt we've seen anything like that, really - not since Spock was
>apparently contacted by V'Ger in ST:TMP. I say apparently, since the
>thing about Spock receiving a "vision" of V'Ger may not have been
>handled the same way in the new Director's Edition of the film...
How about Sybok? In Star Trek V he mentions having a vision that
The Barrier is passable -- that it's just the representation of the fear
of people trying to reach it -- and the Annoying Entity inside appears to
know something about Sybok.
Joseph Nebus
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