Dealing with TOR. Help!
Kevin Lightburn
Has anyone dealt with Tor before? I would like to submit a mss
(I haven't written it yet) idea to them but I do not have an
agent. The mss would be for their Conan line.
What I would like to know is:
1)Are they swamped with Conan mss? Are they interested in new
authors? They have only about 4 or 5 writers who put out 2
or three books a year each.
2)Would sending a query letter hamper me in the long run? I
don't want to appear as a fan-boy to them but want to get across
that I am serious.
3)OR should I just write the damn thing, find and agent and get
him/her to try and sell it to Tor?
My only other problem is that writing my first book for the
Conan line is that there is NO OTHER market to sell it to. It
would just be Tor since they own the book rights for Conan.
Or should I just toss this idea and write a mss that I could
have sent to more then one publisher.
Thanks in advance.
Kevin Lightburn
P Nielsen Hayden
>Has anyone dealt with Tor before? I would like to submit a mss
>(I haven't written it yet) idea to them but I do not have an
>agent. The mss would be for their Conan line.
While we are quite open to new writers and do not require unpublished
writers to have an agent before submitting to us, it happens that the Conan
books are a special case. The series is packaged to us by Conan Properties,
Inc., who choose the authors and provide the manuscripts. We aren't looking
for any new Conan authors and, as far as I'm aware, neither is Conan
Properties, Inc.
You'd be better advised to work on your own material anyway. Yes, Roland
Green and John Maddox Roberts write Conan books, but they write their own
stuff too, and that's where they learned their craft and built their
careers. Writing Conan stuff is, for them, a fun sideline.
-----
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com
senior editor, Tor Books : opinions mine
LawrenceT5
that line (phone and ask) and then write a query to that editor. If the editor
is willing to look at your work, he or she will tell you how much to write
(probably 3 chapters and a synopsis) and how to submit. They may have a series
'bible' or special guidelines for that line, in which case you BETTER get them
before starting the work.
Good luck!
<<** Larry **>>
KV...@asuacad.bitnet
This is absolutely great! I can't believe that anyone in the
publishing world is listening to this usenet...and now I know I'm
wrong. There is something going on here that could be a major
breakthrough for writers and publishers alike.
Patrick Neilson (sp?) from TOR publishing replied to an inquiry
on the net regarding a possible Conan series a writer wanted to start.
His personal reply not only told that one writer what he wanted to
know, but it also told hundreds if not thousands of other writers at
the same time. I for one will not be sending any inquiries to TOR
about possible Conan series and therefore, and thereafter, will be
listening to the net for other tidbits. What this has done is not
only reduce the inquiry by one, but also helped TOR by reducing the
number of inquires by the quantity of potential inquires had Patrick
not replied on the net.
I hope Patrick keeps his ears open to the net and lets all of
us know what's happening out there.
J. L. Campbell
Crawford Kilian
*
Patrick Neilson (sp?) from TOR publishing replied to an inquiry
on the net regarding a possible Conan series a writer wanted to start.
His personal reply not only told that one writer what he wanted to
know, but it also told hundreds if not thousands of other writers at
the same time. I for one will not be sending any inquiries to TOR
*
...to which I have to ask, why the hell would anyone *want* to get
published by sharecropping poor dead Robert Howard's 60-year-old neurotic
fantasies?
I confess that as a teenager, almost 40 years ago, I was writing my own
Conan stories (and creating my own pre-Ice Age mythical kingdoms); maybe
that's why the idea now strikes me as so horrible. A literature that keeps
its readers and writers trapped in such a limited genre is about as useful
as tobacco.
If you want to write, write what *you* want to write, and don't even
consider pandering to the dummies who want the print equivalent of a
Quarter-Pounder with fries. SF and fantasy are dying before our eyes of
standardization, sharecropping and pastiche (if you loved Sherlock Holmes,
you'll love Holmes and Freud Meet Godzilla on the Starship Enterprise).
For God's sake, for your readers' sake, and for your own sake as writers--
write what matters to you, and let the mouth-breathers find their
entertainment somewhere else. I speak as the scarred author of 10 SF and
fantasy novels, with #11 almost done...after which I revert to amateur
status and start following my own advice.
--
Crawford Kilian Communications Department Capilano College
North Vancouver BC Canada V7J 3H5
Usenet: Crawfor...@mindlink.bc.ca
Internet: cki...@cln.etc.bc.ca
P Nielsen Hayden
>J. L. Campbell writes:
>*
>Patrick Neilson (sp?) from TOR publishing replied to an inquiry
>on the net regarding a possible Conan series a writer wanted to start.
>His personal reply not only told that one writer what he wanted to
>know, but it also told hundreds if not thousands of other writers at
>the same time. I for one will not be sending any inquiries to TOR
>about possible Conan series...
>*
>...to which I have to ask, why the hell would anyone *want* to get
>published by sharecropping poor dead Robert Howard's 60-year-old neurotic
>fantasies?
>I confess that as a teenager, almost 40 years ago, I was writing my own
>Conan stories (and creating my own pre-Ice Age mythical kingdoms); maybe
>that's why the idea now strikes me as so horrible.
Etc., etc.
I love the net. Answer someone's query about the Conan books, get a lengthy
flame about the evils of sharecropping.
As a teenager I wrote Howard pastiches, too, which is why I tried to answer
the query pleasantly. I doubt very much that I would have been much
influenced by a flame like Crawford's, excpet insofar as it would have
convinced me that the flamer was a grownup with a serious no-fun Attitude.
Crawford Kilian
flame...not really. I think of a flame as a personal attack, and I
certainly didn't think of my comments as such.
Maybe my comments wouldn't impress a kid; my parents and teachers thought I
overdid the pulp sf mags. But adults are kids' way of achieving kids'
goals, and if the goals are trivial the adults don't feel so good even when
they achieve them.
I'm sorry, Patrick...it's not that I'm a no-fun adult, but that Conan is no
fun to anyone intellectually and emotionally beyond age 9...even if my hero
L. Sprague DeCamp praised the stories. And even if Conan and other silly
characters were still worth reading, young writers ought to be developing
their *own* silly characters and maybe learning something about themselves
in the process. *Aspiring* to pastiche is a sad ambition...
P Nielsen Hayden
>Patrick Hayden describes my comments about the Conan series as a
>flame...not really. I think of a flame as a personal attack, and I
>certainly didn't think of my comments as such.
>Maybe my comments wouldn't impress a kid; my parents and teachers thought I
>overdid the pulp sf mags. But adults are kids' way of achieving kids'
>goals, and if the goals are trivial the adults don't feel so good even when
>they achieve them.
>I'm sorry, Patrick...it's not that I'm a no-fun adult, but that Conan is no
>fun to anyone intellectually and emotionally beyond age 9...even if my hero
>L. Sprague DeCamp praised the stories. And even if Conan and other silly
>characters were still worth reading, young writers ought to be developing
>their *own* silly characters and maybe learning something about themselves
>in the process. *Aspiring* to pastiche is a sad ambition...
You know, what really gets to me about this thread is that the notion that
writers ought to develop their own characters is what I said to that fellow
in the first place, but you've been coming off as if you were the first
person in this conversation to grasp this Great Truth. Perhaps you joined
the thread late? I feel like I've been used as your straw man, and I find I
resent it.
I am not a Conan fan. But I persist in thinking that to characterize anyone
who likes something you don't like as not being "intellectually and
emotionally beyond age 9" is, well, abusive. Call me kooky, but it would
seem to me sufficient to criticize the failings of pulp adventure fiction,
optionally appending a plug for the richer and more sustaining rewards of
more complex and ambitious storytelling. Why you feel the need to
categorically condemn those who read the stuff is beyond me. Are you trying
to convince actual people, or are we simply listening in on an argument
between you and your younger self?
-----
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com
senior editor, Tor Books : opinions mine
Free prize to the first person in this thread to get my name right!
Brenda J. Grolle
In a previous article, p...@panix.com (name deleted) says:
>(name deleted) : p...@panix.com
>senior editor, Tor Books : opinions mine
>Free prize to the first person in this thread to get my name right!
>
I've been following this thread and thought I'd jump in for the free prize!
;-)
Your name is Patrick Nielsen Hayden and you didn't do anything wrong by
trying to help out a writer. Don't let anyone chase you away!
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brenda J. Grolle el...@cleveland.freenet.edu Writer of Dark Fiction
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Crawford Kilian
*
I am not a Conan fan. But I persist in thinking that to characterize
anyone
who likes something you don't like as not being "intellectually and
emotionally beyond age 9" is, well, abusive. Call me kooky, but it would
seem to me sufficient to criticize the failings of pulp adventure fiction,
optionally appending a plug for the richer and more sustaining rewards of
more complex and ambitious storytelling. Why you feel the need to
categorically condemn those who read the stuff is beyond me.
Why should I call you kooky? And why is it abusive to condemn a form of
writing that shuts down, rather than enhancing, consciousness and mental
development? Should I keep my mouth shut about the good folks who enjoy
kiddy porn (hey, it's all a matter of taste)?
Whatever else was wrong with the pulp SF of the 1940s and 50s, it did
provoke a lot of its readers into more complex experiences with literature.
And like most developing literatures, SF itself has a self-referential,
"academic" component that comments on its earlier forms...usually
ironically...and by so doing, it rewards readers who are familiar with the
genre and sensitive to the way storytelling itself can be a message.
We have seen in the last 20 years, however, a growing tendency to "generic"
fantasy and SF in which the same patterns recur--not as archetype but as
cliche. I think their effect has been to sterilize the forms, to make them
safe and predictable by appealing to infantile attitudes.
Mass market publishers, inevitably, have to please the mass market. So
whether they wanted to or not, they've encouraged the trend to literature
as security blanket. Remember the novel-writing machines in Orwell's 1984?
They produced what Winston Smith knew as "prolefeed," stuff to keep the
folks narcotized rather than wake them up. It was one of his more accurate
forecasts.
John Angus
In a previous article, el...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Brenda J. Grolle) says:
>
>In a previous article, p...@panix.com (name deleted) says:
>
>>(name deleted) : p...@panix.com
>>senior editor, Tor Books : opinions mine
>>Free prize to the first person in this thread to get my name right!
>>
>
>I've been following this thread and thought I'd jump in for the free prize!
>;-)
Okay, you beat me to it. So what's the free prize?
Do you get a membership to a different freenet, Brenda? One that works
a tad better than Cleveland, hmmmmmm? :-}
--
John D Angus | The esteem of wise and good men is the greatest of all
Ottawa, Ontario | temporal encouragements to virtue; and it is the mark of an
CANADA | abandoned spirit to have no regard to it.
-Edmund Burke
Elizabeth Willey
going to wade into this, but I wince to see two people I like and
respect going on like this...please, gentlemen...your differences of
opinion are, I think, illusory.
My answer to the querent, and to anyone who wants to do something like
this, is: go ahead. Write stories about Conan, or anyone else, if you
really want to. Remember that it's fan fiction and someone else owns
copyright on the characters, so it's not publishable for money. But
it can be very educational; fan fiction offers a "controlled
environment", with ready characters, and some pre-existing conditions,
for learning how to handle narrative, plot, dialogue, and so on. Keep
it in a drawer for ten years and burn it when you've sold your third
story or book or whatever. Enjoy yourself!
The Arthuriana subgenre is essentially fan fiction. It's been going
for centuries. Just because Thomas Malory and Chretien de Troyes
mapped it out a few hundred years back hasn't stopped anyone from
elaborating on what they wrote.
Elizabeth Willey
P Nielsen Hayden
>Why is it abusive to condemn a form of writing that shuts down,
rather than enhancing, consciousness and mental development?
You didn't condemn a form of writing, you condemned the people who like
that writing. I don't see why this is such a difficult distinction to
make.
You think _you_ dislike Conan novels -- you've never had to actually work on
them. Happy was I the day I was able to hand the whole line over to a
younger editor, and move on to more interesting things. However, whenever
I'm tempted to grouse about that terrible downmarket shared-world stuff that
"shuts down, rather than enhancing, consciousness and mental development," I
reflect that as far as most of the literary establishment is concerned, this
is also true of the work of all those other sci-fi jocks like Philip K.
Dick, R. A. Lafferty, and Ursula K. Le Guin. Frankly, this haste to
distance the stuff _we_ like from That Awful Trash Over There reminds me of
nothing so much as the prejudice and hostility of the previous generation of
immigrants towards these awful newcomers.
(I also reflect, while I'm at it, that there's been some excellent work done
in which the "shared world" was a collaborative creation instead of a
franchise from an entertainment conglomerate -- work like the Liavek series,
for instance -- and that this work has been largely ignored or sneered at by
a lot of people in SF who're convinced they know what a shared-world is
like. Funny, these sneers sound just like the sneers of SF-haters against
the entire genre. Buncha crazy rocketship stuff, you know.)
>Should I keep my mouth shut about the good folks who enjoy
>kiddy porn (hey, it's all a matter of taste)?
Two points off for resorting to the "kiddy porn" argument. According to the
Iron Laws of Online Argument, Nazi Germany will come up next.
>Mass market publishers, inevitably, have to please the mass market. So
>whether they wanted to or not, they've encouraged the trend to literature
>as security blanket. Remember the novel-writing machines in Orwell's 1984?
>They produced what Winston Smith knew as "prolefeed," stuff to keep the
>folks narcotized rather than wake them up. It was one of his more accurate
>forecasts.
You appear to believe that mass-market publishing is a cause of poor writing
and bad literary taste, a notion I'm not even sure I know how to begin
arguing with. The depth of elitism inherent in the idea that publishing
should cater only to a select few -- which, like it or not, is the
implication of categorically condemning "mass market publishing" -- is,
well, pretty striking. But okay. Let's abolish paperbacks, and go back to
a world in which there are fewer than five hundred bookstores in the entire
US and Canada. Certainly nobody ever wrote a bad book in those days, and
all the bestsellers were masterpieces.
Do you feel like I'm misrepresenting your views? I daresay I'm being no
less fair than you are when you toss around dire insinuations about "mass
market publishing" being some kind of Orwellian nightmare. But don't mind
me, I enjoy having my company and my vocation characterized as a
manifestation of evil. Yum.
Really, though, I really don't think you _are_ thinking about what you're
saying. I think you're fulminating because you're pissed off and frustrated
that the world is full of lousy books and bad taste, and you'd like to blame
it on someone -- people who like Conan books, "mass-market" publishers, any
likely target. Called on it, you claim that you're just decrying bad books
and bad work, but the actual text of your remarks belies this claim.
-----
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com
Crawford Kilian
inducing calm and tranquility...thanks for being so sensible, Elizabeth!
Richard Grimes
position as an editor. You're damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Still, I enjoyed both points of view. Reading your discussion was a
little like watching a pro-wrestling match, only nobody got to use folding
chairs to beat up their opponent. Have you two thought about a tag team cage
match?:)
Sincerely,
Richard Grimes
A Wrestling Fan
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-i-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Richard Grimes rgr...@infi.net This is my opinion, not
The Virginian-Pilot/The Ledger Star necessarily that of my
150 W.Brambleton Ave., Norfolk, Va. 23501 employer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chuq Von Rospach
>Has anyone dealt with Tor before?
Patrick answered this one fine, but I wanted to make one editorial comment:
>3)OR should I just write the damn thing, find and agent and get
>him/her to try and sell it to Tor?
NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER write a book into a proprietary universe without
a contract. period. exclamation point.
It might be fun to write a Trek book, but if Pocket doesn't buy it, you're
screwed. Nobody else CAN buy it.
Ergo, you don't write a Trek book unless Pocket's already decided they like it.
Ditto Conan. Wild Cards. Thieves' World. Battlestar Galactica. If someone
owns the rights, either resolve the access/permissions going in or do
something else. To do anything else is an amazing waste of time and energy.
As Patrick said, go write something that's yours. Almost ALL of this stuff
is written by already-published writers, because the editors who do this
don't have the time and/or energy to work with unproven writers or plow
through lots of slush. They want to be able to sit down with someone, work
out a deal, and be confident that they'll get what was agreed to. Until
you've done it on your own, that makes it real hard to prove you can do it
under contract.
--
Chuq "IMHO" Von Rospach (ch...@apple.com) *+* Member SFWA
SF Giants: giants-request@ *+* SJ Sharks: sharks-...@medraut.apple.com
Minor league baseball: minors-...@medraut.apple.com
Thus I stand revenged - Go, crown some other with a prophet's woe.
(Agamemnon, by Aeschylus)
Alan Barclay
> For my money, Conan was interested in helping people out when
>there was a clear problem. He was no intellectual, but he had a keen
>sense of what was right or wrong in many different situations. How does
>that shut down one's consciousness? I would argue that antiheroes who
>say that the world is one great big sewer and invite us to picture
>ourselves as a piece of the garbage:those represent art at its worst,
>encouraging people to shut down awareness of what life could be and
>should be, a la Aristotle.
> Again recalling Conan, he never shrank from adventure. He was not
>indecisive. He did not spend great amounts of time mulling over
>situations because, like the "savage" he was reputed to be, he had no
>great complex internal problems of guilt, self-alienation, or being
>confused about right and wrong. I don't think of those problems as
>marking a person as "intellectual," though.
> Frankly, I'd rather be like a Conan, meeting life's challenges
>head on, than go through life as a shrinking violet. Though, having
I, too, liked Conan -- Howard could tell a good story, but I find the
endless pastiches that have been written since are often uninspiring
rehashes of themes REH treated more powerfully.
Alan
--
Support Your Local Writer!
Buy volume ten of L. Ron Hubbard's Writers of the Future Anthology, June/94.
(Look for my name inside the front cover.)
Rich Hamper
> Patrick Hayden describes my comments about the Conan series as a
> flame...not really. I think of a flame as a personal attack, and I
> certainly didn't think of my comments as such.
You seem to purposely provoke by throwing out a lot a value
judgements. What did you hope to achieve? Patrick's affiliated with
Tor. Conan stories are published from Tor. What'd you expect?
> ...it's not that I'm a no-fun adult, but that Conan is no
> fun to anyone intellectually and emotionally beyond age 9...even if my hero
> L. Sprague DeCamp praised the stories.
How, pray tell, do you know that Conan is "no fun to anyone
intellectually and emotionally beyond age 9?" Do you have
valid statistics to back this up? I think not. And if someone finds
Conan to be fun, do you mean to imply that they're emotionally or
intellectually retarded or some such? If so, you're purposefully
insulting. Why?
> . . . young writers ought to be developing their *own* silly characters
>and maybe learning something about themselves in the process.
Do you mean to imply that the sole purpose of writing is to learn
something about oneself? One certainly does, but I don't think you'll
find too many authors or writers who do it for that reason. If this is
your goal, fine. By what right do you impose your standards on others?
>*Aspiring* to pastiche is a sad ambition...
No one purposely does this and only critics purposefully look for
it. So, I read your intention here as provocation. Again, why?
--- Rich
* KWQ/2 1.2e * Sacred cows make great hamburgers.
drag...@kbbs.com
I'm kinda curious. I recall my beloved Conan from years back. I never
noted a shutting down of consciousness therefrom.
For my money, Conan was interested in helping people out when
there was a clear problem. He was no intellectual, but he had a keen
sense of what was right or wrong in many different situations. How does
that shut down one's consciousness? I would argue that antiheroes who
say that the world is one great big sewer and invite us to picture
ourselves as a piece of the garbage:those represent art at its worst,
encouraging people to shut down awareness of what life could be and
should be, a la Aristotle.
Again recalling Conan, he never shrank from adventure. He was not
indecisive. He did not spend great amounts of time mulling over
situations because, like the "savage" he was reputed to be, he had no
great complex internal problems of guilt, self-alienation, or being
confused about right and wrong. I don't think of those problems as
marking a person as "intellectual," though.
Frankly, I'd rather be like a Conan, meeting life's challenges
head on, than go through life as a shrinking violet. Though, having
because you disagree with me about this, that your character is in the
slightest worthy of ought but good repute.
best wishes,
Mike Rael
drag...@kbb.com
* KBBS Bulletin Board *
(818) 886-0872
A local numbers available for all of Los Angeles!
BEVERLY HILLS VAN NUYS ANAHEIM WOODLAND HILLS VENTURA POMONA
P Nielsen Hayden
>In an earlier message to ALL on 05-10-1994, Crawford Kilian wrote:
> > Patrick Hayden describes my comments about the Conan series as a
> > flame...not really. I think of a flame as a personal attack, and I
> > certainly didn't think of my comments as such.
>
> You seem to purposely provoke by throwing out a lot a value
> judgements. What did you hope to achieve? Patrick's affiliated with
> Tor. Conan stories are published from Tor. What'd you expect?
[stuff deleted]
> By what right do you impose your standards on others?
Pardon me for pausing to defend someone I'm arguing with, but unless I
missed a message, I haven't seen any evidence of Crawford Kilian "imposing"
his standards on anyone. Mr. Kilian makes value judgements and puts forth
his standards by the same God-given right as anyone else on Usenet.
Characterizing him as attempting to "impose" anything on anybody is quite
unfair, and betrays a pretty fuzzy notion of the verb "to impose."
A kind of muddled misreading of my and Crawford's exchange also underlies
this writer's notion that our argument is rooted in the fact that I work for
Tor, and Conan books are published by Tor. In fact I said early and often
that I don't much care for the Conan books; my criticism of Crawford is that
he made a wholesale characterization, not of the books, but of their
readers. And we have other arguments about the relationship of
mass-marketing to quality work in modern culture.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised that some people on Usenet can take an
exchange like this and reduce it to
Kilian: "Conan books bad, ugh!"
Nielsen Hayden: "Conan books good! Kilian am a dum-dum! Ugh!"
but it's pretty discouraging. One does tend to hope that people in
misc.writing can, by and large, read.
John Angus
In a previous article, p...@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden) says:
>
>I guess I shouldn't be surprised that some people on Usenet can take an
>exchange like this and reduce it to
>
> Kilian: "Conan books bad, ugh!"
> Nielsen Hayden: "Conan books good! Kilian am a dum-dum! Ugh!"
>
>but it's pretty discouraging. One does tend to hope that people in
>misc.writing can, by and large, read.
>
Where do you get the idea, Patrick, that writers can't be as short-sighted,
as prone to venom or misreading as the general population? One can be
a writer and still be an ass. One can be an editor and an ass too.
All this come to mind because I've just finished reading my Saturday
paper. Inside is a brief story on a meeting of the Writers' Union of
Canada. At that writing certain writers took issue with a soon to
be held conference supported by the Union, which was for "non-white"
writers only.
Noted author Pierre Berton was heckled for, among other things,
calling himself an "enthusiastic heterosexual" when it was suggested
that lesbian writers needed their own conference too. Chilean-born
poet Elias Letelier-Ruz was called "a Caucasian and a spy for the white man".
"Shut up," Leteleir-Ruz said to Lynne Gordon, one of the objectors
"Shut up, yourself," Gordon replied.
Makeda Silvera, publisher of Sister Vision Press then told
the audience, "This is racist shit that we have to listen to. And then
some white folks applaud."
Ah, writers, the intellectual pulse of a nation, no? Calm, temperate,
thoughtful, one and all.
PS. For the first time ever I saw the term "people of Pallor" used
to refer to white people. And the person was serious, too. Yeeks.
JA
P Nielsen Hayden
>Where do you get the idea, Patrick, that writers can't be as short-sighted,
>as prone to venom or misreading as the general population? One can be
>a writer and still be an ass.
Thanks for the reminder, but I assure you that I'm alive to this fact on a
near-daily basis.
Eve Gair
>From: crawford...@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
>Subject: Re: Dealing with TOR. Help!
>Date: Mon, 09 May 94 16:30:11 -0700 (PDT)
I grew up there, but haven't been back for years. Why have you been writing
SF novels and fantasy? Do you enjoy the actual writing (can anyone?). What
will you write next? Please ignore all questions which are inappropriate.
Cheers! Eve Gair
Chuq Von Rospach
> intellectually and emotionally beyond age 9?
Gee. I guess I'm retarded. oops. that phrase isn't politically correct.
Well, since I'm retarded, I guess I can get away with it.
(hey, Conan is fun. Mindless, brainless and fun. So sue me).
And I'd write one if I got a chance. (although frankly, I'd rather write Doc
Savage).
Sandra J Hutchinson
>> How, pray tell, do you know that Conan is "no fun to anyone
>> intellectually and emotionally beyond age 9?
>Gee. I guess I'm retarded. oops. that phrase isn't politically correct.
>Well, since I'm retarded, I guess I can get away with it.
>(hey, Conan is fun. Mindless, brainless and fun. So sue me).
>And I'd write one if I got a chance. (although frankly, I'd rather write Doc
>Savage).
Since I'm still new to this newsgroup, let me give a brief history. I
went to Bryn Mawr, and did a lot of graduate work at Columbia University.
I work as a freelance copyeditor on long term assignment at Prentice
Hall; and I write as a hobby.
Not bad for someone who's intellectually and emotionally stunted.
Because I, too, like Conan. (Someone has to or they wouldn't sell well
enough to keep the books coming.) I wouldn't prescribe them as an
exclusive diet, but they're enjoyable mind candy. After a day of close
reading and nitpicking, it's great to just follow sheer action along.
I was especially fond of Conan the Free Lance (for obvious reasons).
That made the rounds at my worksite (a hotbed of stupidity, no doubt) and
the cover spent a lot of time posted up on my cubicle wall.
Writing one would be fun. So would writing Doc Savage. Or, best of all,
has anyone ever considered bringing back Edmond Hamilton's Startwolves
series?
Sandra Hutchinson
san...@world.std.com
Elizabeth Willey
[...]
(hey, Conan is fun. Mindless, brainless and fun. So sue me).
And I'd write one if I got a chance. (although frankly, I'd rather write Doc
Savage).
So write the fabled _Conan the Bohemian_ and send it to Tor. Maybe
they won't buy it, but you'll get a huge samizdat photocopy
distribution and a lifetime's worth of kudos from the grateful
editorial staff.
Elizabeth Willey
P Nielsen Hayden
>I was especially fond of Conan the Free Lance (for obvious reasons).
>That made the rounds at my worksite (a hotbed of stupidity, no doubt) and
>the cover spent a lot of time posted up on my cubicle wall.
Glad to hear it wasn't just the in-house staff at Tor that found that title
funny. Copyeditors vied for it!
KV...@asuacad.bitnet
crawford...@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian) writes:
>J. L. Campbell writes:
>*
>Patrick Nielsen Hayden from TOR publishing replied to an inquiry
>on the net regarding a possible Conan series a writer wanted to start.
>His personal reply not only told that one writer what he wanted to
>know, but it also told hundreds if not thousands of other writers at
>the same time. I for one will not be sending any inquiries to TOR
>about possible Conan series...
>*
Crawford Killian writes:
>...to which I have to ask, why the hell would anyone *want* to get
>published by sharecropping poor dead Robert Howard's 60-year-old neurotic
>fantasies?
>I confess that as a teenager, almost 40 years ago, I was writing my own
>Conan stories (and creating my own pre-Ice Age mythical kingdoms); maybe
>that's why the idea now strikes me as so horrible.
Etc., etc.
Patrick Nielsen Hayden's follow-up:
I love the net. Answer someone's query about the Conan books, get a lengthy
flame about the evils of sharecropping.
As a teenager I wrote Howard pastiches, too, which is why I tried to answer
the query pleasantly. I doubt very much that I would have been much
influenced by a flame like Crawford's, excpet insofar as it would have
convinced me that the flamer was a grownup with a serious no-fun Attitude.
---------------------------------- end ------------------------------------
I would like to end this thread by saying that I wish it had never
happened. We, as in every person actively writing, need the Patrick's
on the net as a means to communicate directly with publishers and the
publishing industry. Patrick Nielsen Hayden can contribute quite a bit
by letting us know what TOR is looking for and what not to waste your
time on. The original posting was a query to the net asking if anyone
had any information about TOR and how to submit a query for a possible
CONAN script. Seems simple enough. Patrick was kind enough to answer
the gentleperson with the knowledge of someone who works for TOR and
not as a third party. We, as I tried to explain in my follow-up, should
take his advice and shake his hand, but we needn't flame him for his
efforts.
The thread lost purpose and meaning when the discussion turned
into an arguement on the virtues of publishing Conan in the first place.
What a shame. What a waste of time and energy. What a loss of
talent to spend time debating a virtue who's point is mute because it
is done and there is no changing it. Get on with the next adventure
if there is one. Don't dwell on something you can no more change than
a bigot's hatred.
Let us encourage other editor's to join the net and strike a
meaningful dialogue so we can all benefit by the open communications.
Enough said...
J.L. Campbell -- I though my morning coffee wasn't suppose to taste
better than my breath.
P Nielsen Hayden
and masscult from several days ago, and remarks:
> I would like to end this thread by saying that I wish it had never
>happened. We, as in every person actively writing, need the Patrick's
>on the net as a means to communicate directly with publishers and the
>publishing industry. Patrick Nielsen Hayden can contribute quite a bit
>by letting us know what TOR is looking for and what not to waste your
>time on. The original posting was a query to the net asking if anyone
>had any information about TOR and how to submit a query for a possible
>CONAN script. Seems simple enough. Patrick was kind enough to answer
>the gentleperson with the knowledge of someone who works for TOR and
>not as a third party. We, as I tried to explain in my follow-up, should
>take his advice and shake his hand, but we needn't flame him for his
>efforts.
> The thread lost purpose and meaning when the discussion turned
>into an arguement on the virtues of publishing Conan in the first place.
> What a shame. What a waste of time and energy. What a loss of
>talent to spend time debating a virtue who's point is mute because it
>is done and there is no changing it. Get on with the next adventure
>if there is one. Don't dwell on something you can no more change than
>a bigot's hatred.
> Let us encourage other editor's to join the net and strike a
>meaningful dialogue so we can all benefit by the open communications.
I think J. L. Campbell is overreacting. Discussions like this have value,
and I certainly don't need to be treated like a rare and miraculous object
just because I draw my paycheck from a real live New York book publisher. I
suspect J.L. may be taking the vehemence of my, and Crawford's, remarks for
more than it was worth. Both Crawford and I are longtime SF people with a
streak of the controversialist; this wasn't some kind of nasty deadly
personal flamewar.
Crawford Kilian
PNH> I suspect J.L. may be taking the vehemence of my, and Crawford's,
remarks
PNH> for more than it was worth. Both Crawford and I are longtime SF
people PNH> with a streak of the controversialist; this wasn't some kind of
nasty PNH> deadly personal flamewar.
Very true. I was in a lousy frame of mind last week and overreacted to the
idea of dedicating one's writing life to Conan--probably because I
suspected I'd done just that. Patrick picked up on my feelings (a nice
stunt in a medium that doesn't convey much nonverbal communication) though
not, of course, on their causes.
If we helped any writers pause to consider *what* they want to write, and
*why* they want to write it, we probably did more good than harm. To the
extent that I made anyone's life tougher than it would otherwise have been
thanks to my crabby remarks, I apologize.
Rich Hamper
> . . . . I haven't seen any evidence of Crawford Kilian "imposing"
> his standards on anyone. Mr. Kilian makes value judgements and puts forth
> his standards by the same God-given right as anyone else on Usenet.
> Characterizing him as attempting to "impose" anything on anybody is
> quite unfair, and betrays a pretty fuzzy notion of the verb "to
> impose."
I also have the same God-given right to make value judgments . . . or
mistakes. Wouldn't you agree? As for having a fuzzy notion of the verb
"to impose", that's certainly your value judgment. The "zing" you intended
has been received.
> A kind of muddled misreading of my and Crawford's exchange also underlies
> this writer's notion that our argument is rooted in the fact that I work for
> Tor, and Conan books are published by Tor. . . .
Misreading? Apparently. Muddled? Why? Because you didn't like my
interpretation? Apparently you feel it was inappropriate for me to "step
into" your interaction with Mr. Kilian. I saw Mr. Kilian's message as an
unfair attack on you. I merely responded to what I saw as unfairness. I
will butt out of your discussion with him.
> I guess I shouldn't be surprised that some people on Usenet can take an
> exchange like this and reduce it to
>
> Kilian: "Conan books bad, ugh!"
> Nielsen Hayden: "Conan books good! Kilian am a dum-dum! Ugh!"
>
> but it's pretty discouraging. One does tend to hope that people in
> misc.writing can, by and large, read.
Since I've never read a Conan book, this is a bizarre interpretation of
where I was coming from! Why don't you ask before jumping to conclusions?
Clearly, you misinterpreted my reaction and my intent.
--- Rich
* KWQ/2 1.2e * Contexts determine meaning.
KV...@asuacad.bitnet
asuacad!asuvax!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!agate!deep.rsoft.bc
.ca!mindlink.bc.ca!a710
From: crawford...@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Dealing with TOR. Help!
Date: Mon, 09 May 94 16:30:11 -0700 (PDT)
Lines: 40
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <44...@mindlink.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mindlink.bc.ca
J. L. Campbell writes:
*
Patrick Neilson (sp?) from TOR publishing replied to an inquiry
on the net regarding a possible Conan series a writer wanted to start.
His personal reply not only told that one writer what he wanted to
know, but it also told hundreds if not thousands of other writers at
the same time. I for one will not be sending any inquiries to TOR
about possible Conan series...
*
Crawford Kilian writes:
...to which I have to ask, why the hell would anyone *want* to get
published by sharecropping poor dead Robert Howard's 60-year-old neurotic
fantasies?
I confess that as a teenager, almost 40 years ago, I was writing my own
Conan stories (and creating my own pre-Ice Age mythical kingdoms); maybe
that's why the idea now strikes me as so horrible. A literature that keeps
its readers and writers trapped in such a limited genre is about as useful
as tobacco.
If you want to write, write what *you* want to write, and don't even
consider pandering to the dummies who want the print equivalent of a
Quarter-Pounder with fries. SF and fantasy are dying before our eyes of
standardization, sharecropping and pastiche (if you loved Sherlock Holmes,
you'll love Holmes and Freud Meet Godzilla on the Starship Enterprise).
For God's sake, for your readers' sake, and for your own sake as writers--
write what matters to you, and let the mouth-breathers find their
entertainment somewhere else. I speak as the scarred author of 10 SF and
fantasy novels, with #11 almost done...after which I revert to amateur
status and start following my own advice.
J.L. Campbell's reply:
While I completely agree with Crawford, I do want to put his comments
into perspective. The intent of my post was to impress upon the net
my satisfaction with Patrick N. Hayden's personal reply to a previous
post. As I indicated, Patrick's reply saved a lot of time and trouble
for not only himself, but also other writer's who may have thought about
sending a Conan manuscript to TOR. I, on the other hand, do not have
any intention of writing an Conan series, nor have I ever intended to
give the impression that I don't have a mind of my own. :-)
I don't think it was Crawford's intention to suggest that I can't find
something better to do with my time than re-hash old story lines. Yet,
even Conan can be resurrected with sufficient new ideas. I don't intend
to be that source though. I have enough on my plate as it is...
J.L. Campbell
RJK
> I think J. L. Campbell is overreacting. Discussions like this have value,
> and I certainly don't need to be treated like a rare and miraculous object
> just because I draw my paycheck from a real live New York book publisher. I
> suspect J.L. may be taking the vehemence of my, and Crawford's, remarks for
> more than it was worth. Both Crawford and I are longtime SF people with a
> streak of the controversialist; this wasn't some kind of nasty deadly
> personal flamewar.
no offense, but this was *definitely* how it came across to me, and i bet
some other unintiated folks. i don't think J.L. Campbell was overreacting.
in a public forum like this, the only thing we have to judge with is the
text you post. we have no idea that they were just the remarks of a couple
of "controversialists". some of us are not "longtime SF people", and we
can only judge based on the tone and the presentation of your writing. and
i was the only one who thought the conversation got "overly heated and
flaming" at times.
in this case, you could say that what the author meant to get across was
not what was gotten across to the reader. this a failing of the writer,
and not the "overreaction" of the reader.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
RJK * Robert Kirkpatrick * <rjkirk...@athena.ualr.edu>