An audiophile challenged by evidence...
William M. Johnson, Jr.
A few days ago I picked up a Sansui power amp model BA-F1 at a
ridiculously low price
with the express intent of cleaning it up a little and selling it for a
nice profit, which should
be no problem. In fact, it's already spoken for.
I decided to hook it up in my system to check it out, just to be sure it
works right.
My normal system consists of a CAL Icon CD player, a Pioneer Elite C90
preamp
(which has held up quite well in direct comparison to some much more
expensive models.
It will do until my Krell KRC-3 comes in.) and a pair of Krell KMA 160
monoblocks
driving Aerial 10Ts. Speaker cable is sometimes Kimber 8TC (an older
version) and sometimes the speaker cables are Vampire ST-2s. I swap
around sometimes. Interconnects
are Straightwires. Not a half bad system. It's among the best
systems I've yet heard
if not the absolute best (that I've heard myself).
So I drop this 600 dollar San-Sewage (as techs call them ; ) ) into my
system in place of
eight thousand dollars' worth of Krells and turn it on. Everything
else was the same.
What happens to the sound?
Not all that much, actually. I had to sit back and really listen to a
number of selections
before I got a handle on the differences. Imaging is only slightly
less precise, the soundstage
is a bit shallower, there's a tad less midrange fullness. Treble is
almost (and it's REAL close)
as sweet as the Krells, and the bass response ain't half bad, either! I
never felt like I was
missing anything.
I should mention that the Krells are fully to spec and are in flawless
operating condition.
Any parts that have ever been replaced came directly from Krell.
In comparision (closer to the same price point) with an Acurus A250, I
preferred the Sansui.
The Acurus upper midrange and treble are definitely grainy. The Sansui
is much cleaner.
Color me stunned. I honestly expected a bigger difference.
Yes, there was a difference. But it took a while and some analytical
listening to identify it.
Was the difference worth the $7400 price difference? I'd have to think
about it. For a long
time.
The way I see it, there are four possibilities:
1. You really do pay a lot more for a little more performance in the
High End.
2. My Krells may be operating at slightly less than their original
designed sound quality due
to aging effects. (Doubtful. They've been recently overhauled
with all suspect
components changed out with Krell supplied replacements.)
3. The Sansui amp was designed by a designer who is more than usually
competent and built
to match.
4. The entire High End amp thing may be a scam.
I don't know what to believe. In this case I hope it's number 3. That
I could be happy with.
Chris
Arny Krüger
William M. Johnson, Jr. wrote in message <3574E318...@palmnet.net>...
Based on past experience, if one of us meter owners set the levels so that
they were within 0.1 dB between the "San Sewage", and the Krell stuff, some
if not all of the items you mention would disappear as well.
Eliminate all possible knowlege of what's playing, and then you are quite
likely to be in for an even bigger shock.
OTOH, if you had some really nasty speaker loads, heavier duty power than
Sansui might be in order. Hard to say without trying it. A lot of the cheap
stuff actually sounds pretty good into nasty loads, until it dies a
premature death.
Azhar Khamis
William M. Johnson, Jr. wrote in message <3574E318...@palmnet.net>...
>The way I see it, there are four possibilities:
>1. You really do pay a lot more for a little more performance in the
>High End.
>2. My Krells may be operating at slightly less than their original
>designed sound quality due
> to aging effects. (Doubtful. They've been recently overhauled
>with all suspect
> components changed out with Krell supplied replacements.)
>3. The Sansui amp was designed by a designer who is more than usually
>competent and built
> to match.
>4. The entire High End amp thing may be a scam.
>
>I don't know what to believe. In this case I hope it's number 3. That
>I could be happy with.
>
>Chris
Regarding the above Chris, you may want to consider point 1 and 4 cause when
you have spent a lot, it is always mind over matter!! I beleive right now
you still kind of amazed that the cheap Sansui sound good right???
Azhar Khamis
William M. Johnson, Jr. wrote in message <3574E318...@palmnet.net>...
>The way I see it, there are four possibilities:
>1. You really do pay a lot more for a little more performance in the
>High End.
>2. My Krells may be operating at slightly less than their original
>designed sound quality due
> to aging effects. (Doubtful. They've been recently overhauled
>with all suspect
> components changed out with Krell supplied replacements.)
>3. The Sansui amp was designed by a designer who is more than usually
>competent and built
> to match.
>4. The entire High End amp thing may be a scam.
>
>I don't know what to believe. In this case I hope it's number 3. That
>I could be happy with.
>
>Chris
Well Chris, you might want to consider point 1 and 4 cause after spending a
fortune, it tends to be mind over matter. I guess you might still be
wondering why the cheap Sansui can sound so good eh??
Have you start from scratch Chris?? I mean from cheap components upwards??
If you have, then you might appreciate those so called "low" or "middle" end
product. Not like some who called themselves "true audiophile" who never
even glance at this kind of product. Anyway simple to say, everyone has
their own taste!!
Leonard Weldon
Ref: Sansui/Krell...
If after a few months of switching between the two amps
you decide the Sansui is better for you...then, by all means,
use it. After all, it is what you think is best that counts.
If your personal value system, in terms of audio, can compromise
with the deficiencies of the Sansui, as compared with the Krell,
then, so be it. Be happy with your choice. Remember, differences
in this hobby are small*, nuances if you will...as mentioned above,
it is where you are in your "value system"...what part of the
spectrum is more important to you...mind you, this varies as
years go by. The variables of your own personal ear-brain
process at work! It is not static as some would have you
believe. This Universe of ours tends to cause variables in
every area of endeavor. Acknowledging this is difficult for
many individuals. Scary ole "variability"...maybe if we just
ignore it...maybe, it'll go away!
Leonard....
P.S *Except for speakers and speaker placement. This
can be major! If you are bored with the sound of
your system...just move the speakers around a bit!
Different! Not necessarily better...just different!
On Wed, 03 Jun 1998 01:46:00 -0400, "William M. Johnson, Jr."
<wjoh...@palmnet.net> wrote:
:A few days ago I picked up a Sansui power amp model BA-F1 at a
:
:I should mention that the Krells are fully to spec and are in flawless
:operating condition.
:Any parts that have ever been replaced came directly from Krell.
:
:In comparision (closer to the same price point) with an Acurus A250, I
:preferred the Sansui.
:The Acurus upper midrange and treble are definitely grainy. The Sansui
:is much cleaner.
:
:Color me stunned. I honestly expected a bigger difference.
:
:Yes, there was a difference. But it took a while and some analytical
:listening to identify it.
:Was the difference worth the $7400 price difference? I'd have to think
:about it. For a long
:time.
:
:The way I see it, there are four possibilities:
:
:
:
Azhar Khamis
>1. You really do pay a lot more for a little more performance in the
>High End.
>2. My Krells may be operating at slightly less than their original
>designed sound quality due
> to aging effects. (Doubtful. They've been recently overhauled
>with all suspect
> components changed out with Krell supplied replacements.)
>3. The Sansui amp was designed by a designer who is more than usually
>competent and built
> to match.
>4. The entire High End amp thing may be a scam.
>
>I don't know what to believe. In this case I hope it's number 3. That
>I could be happy with.
>
>Chris
Well Chris, you might want to consider point 1 and 4 cause after spending a
Artie
William M. Johnson, Jr. wrote:
> The way I see it, there are four possibilities:
> 1. You really do pay a lot more for a little more performance in the
> High End.
Yes, I agree. It's called the Law of Diminishing Returns in some
circles.
> 2. My Krells may be operating at slightly less than their original
> designed sound quality due
> to aging effects. (Doubtful. They've been recently overhauled
> with all suspect
> components changed out with Krell supplied replacements.)
Once again I agree.
> 3. The Sansui amp was designed by a designer who is more than usually
> competent and built
> to match.
Could be. I think the most devout Subjectivist will admit that sonic
differences are more subtle in power amps than in other components.
> 4. The entire High End amp thing may be a scam.
You trying to start a fight? ;^) Seriously, I'll admit that I believe
that there is a lot of snake oil in the high-end audio industry. But,
someone has to (or ought to) push the envelope of audio design, and I'm
not sure that Sansui's Mission Statement includes reaching the pinnacle
of subjective and objective audio performance!
Artie
William M. Johnson, Jr.
> Well Chris, you might want to consider point 1 and 4 cause after spending a
> fortune, it tends to be mind over matter. I guess you might still be
> wondering why the cheap Sansui can sound so good eh??
>
> Have you start from scratch Chris?? I mean from cheap components upwards??
> If you have, then you might appreciate those so called "low" or "middle" end
> product. Not like some who called themselves "true audiophile" who never
> even glance at this kind of product. Anyway simple to say, everyone has
> their own taste!!
Yes, I started out with a Fisher rack system that I salvaged from a trash pile.
Three years later I've been through progressively better and more expensive
stuff,
now using Krells, Aerials, CAL, etc.
Many times I've hooked up different amps to the same system and heard very
noticeable
differences, but never before have I found a piece of consumer-oriented
equipment that
stood up so well in the ultimate torture test: Taking the place of a pair of
Krell monoblocks!
I've heard a number of amps in my system and they all sounded different, but for
some strange
reason that Sansui sounds closer to the Krells (having fewer sonic flaws) than
any of the others,
most of which cost quite a bit more.
Maybe I'll keep the Sansui for summer listening. It runs very cool, and my
Krells heat up the
room by a solid seven degrees over the rest of the house and the A/C costs
enough to run
already without being set for 73 degrees in the Florida summer!
Results is results. My Krells are definitely better (at any volume I listen at)
than any other amp
I have yet tried, but that Sansui is close enough that I can genuinely enjoy
music through it.
Should it matter that it sold for less than a tenth of what the Krells cost? A
rational man would
say no. I am a rational man.
So I'm going to sit back now and enjoy some music.
Chris
William M. Johnson, Jr.
Arny Krüger wrote:
> Based on past experience, if one of us meter owners set the levels so that
> they were within 0.1 dB between the "San Sewage", and the Krell stuff, some
> if not all of the items you mention would disappear as well.
I played music (all stuff I'm very familiar with) and even watched a movie with
thisamp, at many varying volume levels, from whisper quiet to much too loud,
and
the differences were consistent at all volumes. The Sansui amp DOES sound
different.
It lacks that last bit of resolution and dynamic ability that is what pushes
the Krells to
the edge of realism. But I can more easily overlook the small omissions than
accept
an unnatural coloration, which the Sansui amp does NOT do. So the Sansui amp
suits
me as a good backup amp in case I need a spare. Krells tend to be extremely
reliable,
but you never know...
Or I could use the cool running Sansui amp in the summer to keep the A/C bill
down to a dull roar. The Krells add seven degrees of heat to the listening
room and setting the A/C to 73 degrees in a Florida summer is like shooting
yourself in the wallet. Plus most A/C units
were not designed to run 24/7 !!
But it's a fine amp, there's no doubt about it. I've always thought that
Sansui made better
stuff than the other mass market companies (except for the past few years,
where they
really went downhill) and this amp reaffirms that thinking.
>
>
> Eliminate all possible knowlege of what's playing, and then you are quite
> likely to be in for an even bigger shock.
>
I might try that, but in all honesty I firmly believe that the differences are
sufficiently noticeablethat I can pick which is which. But I could be
wrong...the differences are subtle.
> OTOH, if you had some really nasty speaker loads, heavier duty power than
> Sansui might be in order. Hard to say without trying it. A lot of the cheap
> stuff actually sounds pretty good into nasty loads, until it dies a
> premature death.
Aerial 10Ts are a fairly benign 6 ohm load without anything alarming in their
impedance
curve.
Chris
Marc Blank
Leonard Weldon wrote:
> Ref: Sansui/Krell...
>
> Leonard....
>
> P.S *Except for speakers and speaker placement. This
> can be major! If you are bored with the sound of
> your system...just move the speakers around a bit!
> Different! Not necessarily better...just different!
>
I would second this suggestion as relief for boredom. LOTS of bang for the
buck in terms of changing tonal balance and soundstaging, even with SMALL
changes in position, toe-in, etc. And you also tend to learn more than by
toying with cables, etc. (not that I'm knocking these tweaks; it's just that
moving speakers has infinite variation and zero cost).
For me (and I'm not suggesting it's true for others) there are two
interesting questions regarding amplifiers: can they drive my speakers
properly (i.e. to the levels I require, without clipping) and do I enjoy
listening to them. The first is pretty objective; the second, clearly
subjective. FWIW, I've never heard (no less, demonstrated in an objective
sense) any non-subtle changes in sound due to different SS amplifiers of
recent vintage. I HAVE, however, heard significant differences with various
tube gear, some more to my liking than others. Within SS amps of comparable
power handling capabilities, I suspect that diminishing returns comes pretty
darned quickly.
- Marc
James M. Cate
William M. Johnson, Jr. wrote:
> AI decided to hook it up in my system to check it out, just to be sure it
> works right.
> What happens to the sound?
>
> Not all that much, actually. I had to sit back and really listen to a
> number of selections
> before I got a handle on the differences. Imaging is only slightly
> less precise, the soundstage
> is a bit shallower, there's a tad less midrange fullness. Treble is
> almost (and it's REAL close)
> as sweet as the Krells, and the bass response ain't half bad, either! I
> never felt like I was
> missing anything.
>
> Chris
It seems to me that you have "almost" conducted some meaningful tests, but
that you owe it to yourself to go a few steps further in order to eliminate
any doubts as to whether the differences were audible or not. For a more
objective test, you should: (1) adjust the volume of the Krell system to
match that of the Sansui system within .1dB, and (2) eliminate visual cues
as to which system is playing at any given time, and have someone else do
the switching, or whatever you are doing to switch between the two systems.
Then please report to us whether you still can discern the differences, and
if so, how often you do. The reason we emphesize the necessity of volume
matching is that even very small differences in volumes result in
significant perceived changes in the QUALITY (not just the volume) of the
sound.
JimCate
William M. Johnson, Jr.
James M. Cate wrote:
Gee, that sounds like you're asking me to do an ABX test. Shame on you! :p
Anyway, I did a little more playing and I found the biggest performance
difference
between the Sansui and the Krell. For some reason, the Sansui amp shows, how
should
I put it...a marked reluctance to delivering close to its max output power of
110 watts/ch.
When I tried to push it, it started behaving like it was hooked up to a
compressor. I had
to turn the preamp volume a lot further to get a little more output after the
20 watt mark (according to the amp's meters which may or may not be accurate)
and it just basically resisted me when I demanded more. My observation of the
perceived volume matches up with that.
It wants to go just so loud, and no more without an argument. But it never
did distort, at
least not that I noticed.
By direct comparison, the Krells show no such constraints. There is no point
on the preamp
volume control where they aren't any more or less responsive. So the upshot
is that the
Sansui amp has shown itself to be good but severely limited in dynamic
ability. Now as
for why that would be, I don't know. Does anybody? The power supply seems
adequate
and I've seen more output power in amps that use the same type and number of
output
devices running the same class.
Chris
billy
The better Sansui amps were VERY good.
Azhar Khamis <azm...@mbox5.singnet.com.sg> wrote in article
<6l3d56$ltu$1...@mango.singnet.com.sg>...
> William M. Johnson, Jr. wrote in message
<3574E318...@palmnet.net>...
> >The way I see it, there are four possibilities:
> >1. You really do pay a lot more for a little more performance in the
> >High End.
> >2. My Krells may be operating at slightly less than their original
> >designed sound quality due
> > to aging effects. (Doubtful. They've been recently overhauled
> >with all suspect
> > components changed out with Krell supplied replacements.)
> >3. The Sansui amp was designed by a designer who is more than usually
> >competent and built
> > to match.
> >4. The entire High End amp thing may be a scam.
> >
> >I don't know what to believe. In this case I hope it's number 3. That
> >I could be happy with.
> >
> >Chris
>
Pamela Hughes
William M. Johnson, Jr. wrote:
> Anyway, I did a little more playing and I found the biggest performance
> difference
> between the Sansui and the Krell. For some reason, the Sansui amp shows, how
> should
> I put it...a marked reluctance to delivering close to its max output power of
> 110 watts/ch.
> When I tried to push it, it started behaving like it was hooked up to a
> compressor. I had
> to turn the preamp volume a lot further to get a little more output after the
> 20 watt mark (according to the amp's meters which may or may not be accurate)
> and it just basically resisted me when I demanded more. My observation of the
> perceived volume matches up with that.
> It wants to go just so loud, and no more without an argument. But it never
> did distort, at
> least not that I noticed.
>
I wouldn't doubt that. For a while there was a power war on (louder is better?)
and they came up with things like peak power and all kinds of ways to inflate
numbers. Everyone just picked an amp that had 10 times more power than they needed
and called it good. I picked the amp with the best signal to noise ratio instead
and wound up with a Yamaha (which also seemed to have the most useful controls).
Only 50 watts per channel but I rarely even drive it to 5 watts (has a calibrated
power meter on it). Don't know if it would wheeze if I tried to really drive it
since the max I could stand was 30 watts (small room and efficient speakers).
Wasn't on the same level as my brother's McIntosh or Crown, but seemed to sound a
lot better than most of the other brands anywhere close to it's price (Kenwood,
Marantz, Pioneer, Sansui etc.) at least to me anyway. Don't remember any of the
models, but there were a few real gems in each of the brands that stood out above
the rest of their lines too (even cheapies) so if you had X bucks, you hunted down
the best model number in that price range regardless of brand. The only problem
with this was that about the only reason for sticking with a brand was that you
could figure the output of their preamp would be designed to match the input levels
on their amps (mixing brands, you could wind up with preamps that under or
overdrove the amps etc.)
PAUL MACCA
>From: Marc Blank <mbl...@eidetic.com>
>FWIW, I've never heard (no less, demonstrated in an objective
>sense) any non-subtle changes in sound due to different SS amplifiers of
>recent vintage.
True. Today, I just went to my dealer to audition an Audio Research D300 SS
power amp that he had on close-out. But to just make sure that I could keep
this amp's capabilities in perspective, I brought my NAD 218 THX in order to
compare. And guess what? Although the ARC had slightly better resolution and
more delieanated localization, it didn't blow the NAD out of the water. In
fact the mid-fi NAD more than held its own in all the other sonic areas,
despite the fact that its price is one-fourth that of the ARC's original retail
($4,000 to $1,000.) The law of diminishing returns, indeed.
>I HAVE, however, heard significant differences with various
>tube gear, some more to my liking than others.
Oh yes! When I asked my dealer to switch the D300 to the VT200 that he had all
warm and toasty, it's soundstaging seemed to extend beyond the back and
side-walls of the listening room, and like most tubed ARC products, it sounded
sweet without being too lush. He had no VT100s in stock, as they are being
revised at the factory. But when they do come out, hopefully I'll have enough
saved up to get myself one of these killer tube amps.
----
"We gotta put out these goddamn mop-haired little bastards from England. Jesus
Christ, The Beatles! What a name! And that hair! It's gonna ruin Capitol,
I'm telling you! It's gonna ruin us!" -- Glenn Wallachs, cofounder of Capitol
Records.
Sander deWaal
On Wed, 03 Jun 1998 18:39:03 -0400, "William M. Johnson, Jr."
<wjoh...@palmnet.net> wrote the following:
>When I tried to push it, it started behaving like it was hooked up to a
>compressor. I had
>to turn the preamp volume a lot further to get a little more output after the
>20 watt mark (according to the amp's meters which may or may not be accurate)
>and it just basically resisted me when I demanded more. My observation of the
>perceived volume matches up with that.
Apart from the power supply, there's a lot more that can go wrong in a
power amp.
Technical talk should be avoided here :-), but it's likely that the
driver stage in the amp, clips earlier (or let's say, compresses
earlier) than the power stage.
It has something to do with overall negative feedback, too.
Under dynamic conditions, small circuit differences can
have (relative) great audible consequences.
The often heard assumption that "designing a power amp
isn't a challenge", is false, IMO..
To build a *really* good power amp, without compression
effects, a stable soundstage, over the entire dynamic range,
sure isn't that easy.
Also, it's easier to build a tube amp that meets musical criteria,
than it is to build a solid state amp.
*A note to all: this DOESN'T mean that building a good SS amp
is impossible, or even VERY hard, just that it's easier with tubes).
_
Sander deWaal
postm...@pegasus.demon.nl
www.pegasus.demon.nl
_______________________________________________
Sander deWaal
On Wed, 3 Jun 1998 05:25:36 -0400, "Arny Krüger" <ar...@flash.net>
wrote the following:
>OTOH, if you had some really nasty speaker loads, heavier duty power than
>Sansui might be in order. Hard to say without trying it. A lot of the cheap
>stuff actually sounds pretty good into nasty loads, until it dies a
>premature death.
Hard to say.
Sansui made some really hefty amps, in their days.
I've always considered the brand as a bargain.
Pamela Hughes
William M. Johnson, Jr. wrote:
> between the Sansui and the Krell. For some reason, the Sansui amp shows, how
> should
> I put it...a marked reluctance to delivering close to its max output power of
> 110 watts/ch.
> When I tried to push it, it started behaving like it was hooked up to a
> compressor. I had
> to turn the preamp volume a lot further to get a little more output after the
> 20 watt mark (according to the amp's meters which may or may not be accurate)
> and it just basically resisted me when I demanded more. My observation of the
> perceived volume matches up with that.
> It wants to go just so loud, and no more without an argument. But it never
> did distort, at
> least not that I noticed.
>
A thought... it may not help the wheezing, but it might. If that amp is very old
(10 years or more) you might try replacing the power supply filter capacitors.
They tend to dry out and loose their capacity, which could hinder it at delivering
on the peaks