Jewel, can she be defined as a folk or pop singer
Daniel Tropea
Hi.
I just bought Jewel's CD Pieces of You which
was a rather meloncholy CD to say the least.
She does have an incredible soft voice the
song Adrian is incredible.
My question though is does her music qualify as folk or pop music.
Watching her videos
in particular "Who Will Save Your Soul" has
a pop feel to it. But the entire CD seems to me
rather more folk music then pop even "Who Will
Save Your Soul" sounds like a folk song.
If she can she be defined as a folk singer she
has had one incredible selling first album. Does
any think she has staying power and could be
a power house in the coming years? She has
the talent at least vocally.
Thank you.
Ian Anderson
Daniel Tropea wrote:
> My question though is does her music qualify as folk or pop music.
Quite clearly pop music. She doesn't apparently sing
any folk songs. Not that it matters . . . it's only
music ;-)
Ian Anderson
Folk Roots magazine
fro...@cityscape.co.uk
http://www.cityscape.co.uk/froots/
Eric Berge
In Article<339881...@cityscape.co.uk>, <fro...@cityscape.co.uk> writes:
> Daniel Tropea wrote:
> > My question though is does her music qualify as folk or pop music.
>
> Quite clearly pop music. She doesn't apparently sing
> any folk songs. Not that it matters . . . it's only
> music ;-)
My take on this is that if any of her songs are already being passed on
orally from one amateur to another, then her stuff is folk music. If the
only people doing it are the author or other professionals who are paying
royalties for the privilege of covering her material, then it's pop.
She doesn't, to my knowledge, sing any traditional material, or sing any
new material in any identifiable trational style, so I don't see how she
can qualify as a folksinger.
Eric Berge
edb...@ibm.net
The Genetti's
> Daniel Tropea wrote:
> > My question though is does her music qualify as folk or pop music.
>
> Quite clearly pop music. She doesn't apparently sing
> any folk songs. Not that it matters . . . it's only
> music ;-)
>
>
> Ian Anderson
> Folk Roots magazine
> fro...@cityscape.co.uk
> http://www.cityscape.co.uk/froots/
I think that Jewel is most definately folk music. Some of it is a little
like pop music, but it is mostly folk. She's wondeful. ~Cerrithwen~ The
Glitter Girl
Gitarzan
I find the following conversation interesting. Here's where I see a rub:
Certain kinds of music follow a specific style or fit to a certain critique in
order to be defined as such. Blues, Jazz, Ragtime, Reggae, Classical, Baroque
are examples. While the borders are not always stiff and rigid, they are there
nonetheless.
Folk is a music classification that has in the last 50 years been narrowed down
to fit specific style of music, but in reality any music developing from the
"folk people" is a type of folk music. Country blues is a folk music, the dirty
little songs kids have always sung is a folk music, etc. So there is two
definitions of Folk music, "True folk music of the people" and the "Folk music
style based on a distillation of country music and music of the 30's, 40's etc,
boiled into a style of tune."
Pop music is also being treated this way. In my interpretation, Pop music is
POPULAR music, whatever it may be. In the 20's, 30's and 40's Jazz was the Pop
music. The crooners of the 50's were pop and in the 60's rock and soul music
were pop. In the early to mid sixties FOLK could have been classified as POP as
it was often in the top 40. Right now it's kind of a hodge podge of various
styles.
Anyway based on my above ramblings, the answer IMHO to the question,
"Jewel, can she be defined as a folk or pop singer?" is YES.
+--------------------------------------------------+
~ gita...@worldnet.att.net aka Dave Fultz, Jr. ~
~ Gitarzan's Blues Central Station ~
~ http://www.geocities.com/sunsetstrip/palms/2867/ ~
+--------------------------------------------------+
Peter Wilton
Gitarzan <NOSPAMg...@worldnet.att.net> writes
>I find the following conversation interesting. Here's where I see a rub:
>Certain kinds of music follow a specific style or fit to a certain critique in
>order to be defined as such. Blues, Jazz, Ragtime, Reggae, Classical, Baroque
>are examples. While the borders are not always stiff and rigid, they are there
>nonetheless.
>
>Folk is a music classification that has in the last 50 years been narrowed down
>to fit specific style of music, but in reality any music developing from the
>"folk people" is a type of folk music.
I wish people would read the article on "Folk" in the _New Grove
Dictionary of Music and Musicians_ before having these discussions. I
think the issue of whether it is a useful term, or rather why it is not, is
given quite a good airing there.
--
Peter Wilton
The Gregorian Association Web Page:
http://www.beaufort.demon.co.uk/chant.htm
Ton Maas
In article <339beabd...@netnews2.worldnet.att.net>,
NOSPAMg...@worldnet.att.net (Gitarzan ) wrote:
>I find the following conversation interesting. Here's where I see a rub:
>Certain kinds of music follow a specific style or fit to a certain critique in
>order to be defined as such. Blues, Jazz, Ragtime, Reggae, Classical, Baroque
>are examples. While the borders are not always stiff and rigid, they are there
>nonetheless.
>
>Folk is a music classification that has in the last 50 years been narrowed down
>to fit specific style of music, but in reality any music developing from the
>"folk people" is a type of folk music. Country blues is a folk music, the dirty
>little songs kids have always sung is a folk music, etc. So there is two
>definitions of Folk music, "True folk music of the people" and the "Folk music
>style based on a distillation of country music and music of the 30's, 40's etc,
>boiled into a style of tune."
>
>Pop music is also being treated this way. In my interpretation, Pop music is
>POPULAR music, whatever it may be. In the 20's, 30's and 40's Jazz was the Pop
>music. The crooners of the 50's were pop and in the 60's rock and soul music
>were pop. In the early to mid sixties FOLK could have been classified as POP as
>it was often in the top 40. Right now it's kind of a hodge podge of various
>styles.
These classifications have a way of evaporating under scrutiny. Sure they
are handy, but only as long as they remain unquestioned. Back in the late
sixties attempts were made to distinguish the "good" or "serious" stuff
from mainstream material, resulting in categories like "adult rock" or
"folk rock" and basically the whole question remains one of emancipation.
We still like to make our own beloved musicians stand out from the crowd,
so we call Jewel "folk" instead of just "pop", since we use "pop" as a
derogative for music that doesn't meet our superior standards.
Ton Maas
Francis Chen - Lynn Hill freed The Nose in a day!
>>
>>Folk is a music classification that has in the last 50 years been narrowed down
>>to fit specific style of music, but in reality any music developing from the
>>"folk people" is a type of folk music. Country blues is a folk music, the dirty
>>little songs kids have always sung is a folk music, etc. So there is two
>>definitions of Folk music, "True folk music of the people" and the "Folk music
>>style based on a distillation of country music and music of the 30's, 40's etc,
>>boiled into a style of tune."
>>
Kerrville. In the audience, there was a person grumbling that Poi Dog was "not
a folk band." Lo and behold, as Frank Orral was introducing the band to the
audience, he was recounting how the band's agent remarked: "What are you guys
doing at Kerrville? You all aren't a folk band." That is when he quoted the
folk man, himself, Woody Guthrie: "If folks like it, it must be folk music!"
My $.02....
Francis
--
________________________________________________________________________________
Francis Y. Chen //
FC0...@SWT.EDU o/\_
Student of Psychology, perception and existence. <\__,\\
">. ||
"The consciousness is the greatest hinderance to ` .-||
proper execution of all physical activity." - Bruce Lee . \\
. \\
"If you don't let go you can't fall off." - Jerry Moffat .-||
. ||
Have a grateful day!!!! . ||
________________________________________________________________________________
Ian Anderson
Francis Chen - Lynn Hill freed The Nose in a day! wrote:
"If folks like it, it must be folk music!"
Ah yes. Spice Girls. Michael Jackson. McDonalds. Mr. Blobby
Either definitions are useful or any discussion is
completely pointless. But then we knew that anyway!
"In a fight with a fool, it's a wise man who quits"
(The Left Handed Man Of Madagascar) ;-)
Ian Anderson
Folk Roots magazine
Francis Chen - Lynn Hill freed The Nose in a day!
--
I realize, now, the risk one takes when quoting someone. I would like to
remind readers that the quote was not mine, but from a personal hero -
Woody Guthrie. In this multi-media, information is a commodity, sound-byte
society, Mr. Anderson is correct. However, in the context of the zeitgeist
that Woody Guthrie lived in and in the same spirit that I do my best to live
in, the words and more importantly, the ideal is still valid. If "folk music"
is to be determined with strong boundries and clear limits of what is and is
not appropriate, songs such as "this land is your land" to "it's a hard life"
to "up against the wall, redneck mother" and "living in a dreaming body" would
not have the magic and spirit for each listener.(pardon the run on sentence)
Peace and love,
Francis
Eric Berge
In Article<1997Jun1...@nyssa.swt.edu>, <fc0...@nyssa.swt.edu> writes:
> In article <33A1BB...@froots.demon.co.uk>, Ian Anderson
<fro...@froots.demon.co.uk> writes:
> > Francis Chen - Lynn Hill freed The Nose in a day! wrote:
> > "If folks like it, it must be folk music!"
> >
> > Ah yes. Spice Girls. Michael Jackson. McDonalds. Mr. Blobby
> >
> > Either definitions are useful or any discussion is
> > completely pointless. But then we knew that anyway!
> I realize, now, the risk one takes when quoting someone. I would like to
> remind readers that the quote was not mine, but from a personal hero -
> Woody Guthrie. In this multi-media, information is a commodity, sound-byte
> society, Mr. Anderson is correct. However, in the context of the zeitgeist
> that Woody Guthrie lived in and in the same spirit that I do my best to live
> in, the words and more importantly, the ideal is still valid. If "folk
> music" is to be determined with strong boundries and clear limits of what is
> and is not appropriate, songs such as "this land is your land" to "it's a
> hard life" to "up against the wall, redneck mother" and "living in a
> dreaming body" would not have the magic and spirit for each listener.(pardon
> the run on sentence)
Frankly, I can't tell what on earth you are babbling about in the preceding
sentence. It is, however, pretty clear that you don't have any idea about
what folk music might be.
The fact that Woodie Guthrie came up with an amusing, dismissive quip doesn't
mean that he actually believed what he said; it just means that he was tired
of dealing with recurrent "what is folk music" questions.
For the record (and about the third time on this thread):
It is folk music if the lyrics or music are traditional.
It is arguably folk music if the lyrics or music are in a traditional style.
It is even arguably folk music if the lyrics or music have passed into an oral
tradition from some other source (ie, large chunks of Beatles, Stones, Simon
and Garfunkel, Grateful Dead, and a few other's repertoires) - I define "oral
tradition" as happening the first time one amateur teaches another amateur a
song or a tune.
Jewel sings her own material in a style that resembles no traditional style
known to me, but well within the mainstream of current pop music. She hasn't
been around long enough for anything that she does to pass in to the
repertoires of most amateurs, and certainly not long enough for it to have
reached a second generation of amateurs.
Ergo, Jewel does NOT sing folk music, and is not a folk singer.
QED
Eric Berge
edb...@ibm.net
Francis Chen - Lynn Hill freed The Nose in a day!
Eric - I omitted my "babble" and I agree with you, it was quite a run
on and probably not coherent, at all. I agree that you define folk
music with your own parameters and that there are plenty of folks out
here, that agree with you.
I do not consider Woody Guthrie's quote as "dismissmive," however. I
think of folk music in how the songs move people. At our camp in Kerr-
ville, we cover Everyday People, Redemption Song, Ripple, along with
the tradtional songs. Why? Do these songs among others fit into the
"traditions" of folk music? Beats me. However, I do know that the
songs are powerful and emotive. I guess we all define music in our own
individual way. Whoops, starting to babble again. Trying to reduce
something as spiritual and moving as music is sometimes difficult for
me. BTW, I was not arguing Jewel being a "folk artist", per se, I was
just saying that people will define their world by their perception.
Thanks for setting me straight, tho'! :)
Francis
--
edb...@ibm.net
In article <1997Jun1...@nyssa.swt.edu>, fc0...@nyssa.swt.edu
(Francis Chen - Lynn Hill freed The Nose in a day!) wrote:
>
> I agree that you define folk music with your own parameters and that there
> are plenty of folks out here, that agree with you.
Well how do _you_ define folk music? In order to discuss a subject, you
generally have to have some idea of what it is you are discussing. As it
happens, I would be that a large number of people over here on
rec.music.folk _disagree_, juging by the number of posts I have to wade
through on singer songwriter acoustic pop artists like Dar Williams, Ani
DiFranco, and Jewel - none of whom are folk musicians as I use the term.
> I do not consider Woody Guthrie's quote as "dismissmive,"
Of course it was, at least as you quoted it ("folk music is music that
folks like"). It was also quite wrong, as a simple counter example can
show - I like and listen to J.S.Bach's "Passion of St.John"; so do
thousands of other "folks"; It is not folk music by _anyone's_
definition. Woody Guthrie, not being any sort of idiot, would have known
this (by the way, I have also heard this aphorism ascribed to Pete
Seeger). Therefore, he didn't mean it.
If anyone had said that "folk music is music that folks PLAY", it would be
impossible to argue with, even if all those thousands of people suddenly
started playing and singing JSB's "Passion of St.John". Which would be
nice.
>however. I think of folk music in how the songs move people.
Eh? That's another statement I can't make heads or tails of. If you are
attempting to say that folk music is anything warm and cuddly with
socially redeeming messages, you're wrong. That is a discussion that
crops up every so often rec.music.folk - if this is actually your
assertion, I recommend that you check a book called "American Ballads and
Folk Songs" by John and Alan Lomax out of your neigbourhood library (or
buy it; it is in print), look up the texts of "Run Nigger Run" and "Damn
the Filipinos", and then get back to me about how they move you. Be
sure and include an explanation of why they are or aren't "folk music".
Bottom line: Folk music is as violent, bigoted, sexist, feminist,
pacifist, idealistic, religious, or atheisitic as the people who happen
to be singing it.
I heard some idiot singing "The Horst Wessel Song" in public a few years
ago. It very nearly "moved" me to violence; he's lucky he was around
witnesses.
> At our camp in Kerrville, we cover Everyday People, Redemption Song,
> Ripple, along with the tradtional songs. Why? Do these songs among others
> fit into the"traditions" of folk music? Beats me.
Beats me, too. I don't know what any of those categories are. Isn't
"Ripple" a kind of wine? Were they being billed as folk music?
> However, I do know that the songs are powerful and emotive. I guess we all > define music in our own individual way.
Actually, unless we can agree on what the words we are using mean, we
might as well all be speaking foreign languages. In order for meaningful
discussion to take place, we _have_ to have shared definitions.
> Whoops, starting to babble again. Trying to reduce
> something as spiritual and moving as music is sometimes difficult for
> me. BTW, I was not arguing Jewel being a "folk artist", per se, I was
> just saying that people will define their world by their perception.
You're right, people are solipsists. That it's so don't make it right.
> Thanks for setting me straight, tho'! :)
Any time.
Eric Berge
edb...@ibm.net
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
William Wagman
Not until she records an album of Georigian Yak herding chants will she be
truly a folkie.
--
Bill Wagman
Univ. of California at Davis
Information Resources
(916) 754-6208
Francis Chen - Lynn Hill freed The Nose in a day!
YES!!!
That is what I REALLY wanted to say, all along! Thank you!
;)
Francis
Ian Anderson
William Wagman wrote:
>
> Not until she records an album of Georigian Yak herding chants will she be
> truly a folkie.
Damn. I thought that was New Age. Back to my Teach Yourself
Definitions ;-)
John Fereira
In article <5o69ii$qtb$2...@mark.ucdavis.edu>,
itb...@chip.ucdavis.edu (William Wagman) wrote:
>Not until she records an album of Georigian Yak herding chants will she be
>truly a folkie.
How do those differ from Alabamian Yak herding chants?
John Fereira
ja...@cornell.edu
Tarot
> Not until she records an album of Georigian Yak herding chants will she be
> truly a folkie.
I don't know about that. Ani Difranco is folk, and she does some of the
best music I have ever heard. And she isn't partial to any herding chants,
I don't think.
-Tarot
DIL...@METRO.NET
Webmaster of "Shadows of Ourselves: a Duncan Sheik Site"
http://metro.net/dilbert
Check out Abra Moore at http://www.abramoore.com
AlwaysJB
Ian Anderson wrote:
>
> William Wagman wrote:
> >
> > Not until she records an album of Georigian Yak herding chants will she be
> > truly a folkie.
>
> Definitions ;-)
Don't bother. "Defining" artists as one catagory or the other is the
most counterproductive thing; if you're a record store owner, put
"Pieces of You" in Folk and Pop and be done with it.
Yulshimie,
JB (Jung-Bum Hur)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MAIL: Alwa...@mariahc.com
IRC NICK: AlwaysJB
URL: http://www.iWorld.net/~jbefx/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John Fereira
In article <dilbert-2106...@005.usr1.dial.sr.metro.net>,
dil...@metro.net (Tarot) wrote:
>In article <5o69ii$qtb$2...@mark.ucdavis.edu>, itb...@chip.ucdavis.edu
>
>> Not until she records an album of Georigian Yak herding chants will she be
>> truly a folkie.
>
>best music I have ever heard. And she isn't partial to any herding chants,
>I don't think.
I can't say that I can really "define" folk music but I know it when I
hear it. I've heard Ani Difranco and wouldn't classify her as folk.
John Fereira
ja...@cornell.edu
ghost
In article <5o8t0v$4...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu> ja...@cornell.edu (John Fereira) writes:
->In article <5o69ii$qtb$2...@mark.ucdavis.edu>,
-> itb...@chip.ucdavis.edu (William Wagman) wrote:
->>Not until she records an album of Georigian Yak herding chants will she be
->>truly a folkie.
->
->How do those differ from Alabamian Yak herding chants?
I've developed an affinity for Alabaman & Georgian *yakker*-herding chants,
myself.
Derer Mok
> >Not until she records an album of Georigian Yak herding chants will she be
Why would we define folk within such narrow boundaries? They jumped on
Dylan for "electrifying" folk, but now we see the shortsightedness of
such boundaries.
Jewel is just part of another chapter on folk. She has distinctive
traits (a wildly varying voice, personal and occasionally child-like
lyrics) that can just be expansions to folk music. The acoustic
arrangements, Ben Keith as producer, the deeply personal subject matter
-- aren't these enough to qualify her as, at least, *partially* folk?
I.D.
Eric Berge
In Article<5oqa2i$s...@news.hkstandard.com>, <dere...@hkstandard.com> writes:
> Why would we define folk within such narrow boundaries? They jumped on
> Dylan for "electrifying" folk, but now we see the shortsightedness of
> such boundaries.
>
> Jewel is just part of another chapter on folk. She has distinctive
> traits (a wildly varying voice, personal and occasionally child-like
> lyrics) that can just be expansions to folk music. The acoustic
> arrangements, Ben Keith as producer, the deeply personal subject matter
> -- aren't these enough to qualify her as, at least, *partially* folk?
Pffft. She does generally unremarkable blank verse in a recitative over some
guitar strumming; there are only two songs on the entire CD that have any
melody to speak of, and they, not coincidentally, are her two big hits.
On the plus side, she is cute; she has a pretty voice; and she owns an
acoustic guitar.
None of which makes her a folk artist.
Out of curiosity - since this thread is being crossposted to r.m.misc and
r.m.alternative.female - have any of the people who seem so insistent on
proclaiming Jewel a folk musician ever listened to actual folk music?
Just wondering.
Eric Berge
edb...@ibm.net
Charles Watkins
In article <NEWTNews.867222997.1583.Eric_Berge@tirnanog>,
Eric Berge <edb...@NOSPAM.ibm.net> wrote:
>
>Pffft. She does generally unremarkable blank verse in a recitative over some
>guitar strumming; there are only two songs on the entire CD that have any
>melody to speak of, and they, not coincidentally, are her two big hits.
Pthbt. Too bad you are listening to songs that are 3-6 years old. The CD
was produced in '94 and released in '95 with some songs she wrote when she
was 17. Find some audience tapes of newer songs like 'Somtimes It Be That
Way', 'Down', 'Love Me Just Leave Me Alone', 'Satellite', and some of her
older stuff like 'Moon Over Austin' (Hotel Angel), 'Down at the Bridge',
'Memoirs of a Howswife'. You will find a poetry and lyricism that is not
generally associated with Jewel, and some darn good foot-stompin' rhythms.
I'm not saying this makes her a folk singer since I don't think she is,
but don't dismiss her so quickly.
--
Chopped Liver (Charlie)
wat...@selway.umt.edu
Share publicly, flame privately,
George Hawes
dere...@hkstandard.com (Derer Mok) wrote:
>> >Not until she records an album of Georigian Yak herding chants will she be
>> >truly a folkie.
>Why would we define folk within such narrow boundaries? They jumped on
>Dylan for "electrifying" folk, but now we see the shortsightedness of
>such boundaries.
Well, sadly, you seem to have excised humour from your 'folk
bondaries' , , , ;-)
Mind, I disagree with the remainder of your post, but others
have argued those points better than I can earlier in the
thread.
Regards
G.
Tim Sullivan
This debate reminds me of the one about Melanie years ago. She was never
welcomed by the folk community despite the fact that her music was more
folk than rock. She was never accepted by the rock community cause she was
too folk. All I know, other than Brand New Key, she put out some good
music....
--
lay down, lay down, let it all down
let your white birds smile up at the ones who stand and frown
-Melanie
Fritz
Jewel is neither pop nor folk. She is a puppet controlled by music
company-moguls to put money in their pockets. The last time I checked,
that didn't have much to do with music.
Eric Berge
Calm down, get some manners, and listen to someone else if you don't like
her stuff.
Idiot.
Eric Berge
edb...@ibm.net
Matt Griffin
In article <5olu2b$3...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, ja...@cornell.edu (John
Fereira) wrote:
> In article <dilbert-2106...@005.usr1.dial.sr.metro.net>,
> dil...@metro.net (Tarot) wrote:
> >In article <5o69ii$qtb$2...@mark.ucdavis.edu>, itb...@chip.ucdavis.edu
> >(William Wagman) wrote:
> >
> >> Not until she records an album of Georigian Yak herding chants will she be
> >> truly a folkie.
> >
> >I don't know about that. Ani Difranco is folk, and she does some of the
> >best music I have ever heard. And she isn't partial to any herding chants,
> >I don't think.
>
> I can't say that I can really "define" folk music but I know it when I
> hear it. I've heard Ani Difranco and wouldn't classify her as folk.
>
>
> John Fereira
> ja...@cornell.edu
folk is music for blind men & elephants. The elephants just feel it &
sway along, the blind men attempt to analize it as it wiggles around in a
petrie dish. Both factions seem to be vital to the whole experience...
Charles Watkins
In article <33B6E6...@linkny.com>, Fritz <mat...@linkny.com> wrote:
>Jewel is neither pop nor folk. She is a puppet controlled by music
>company-moguls to put money in their pockets. The last time I checked,
>that didn't have much to do with music.
She is musician trying to make some money from her work and Atlantic is
helping her out for the customary fees and profits. That has everything
to do with music, the music industry and life in general. "It's not
smarter to be cynical, just safer", to quote Jewel. When a singer gets
the chance to ride a wave they'd better ride it for all it's worth,
because it'll probably stop as quickly as it started.
Bob Bonn
Fritz <mat...@linkny.com> wrote:
>Jewel is neither pop nor folk. She is a puppet controlled by music
>company-moguls to put money in their pockets. The last time I checked,
>that didn't have much to do with music.
I'm not a fan of Jewel, but I'm polite. Too bad everybody here
isn't.
Eric Berge
In Article<didlidi-3006...@mfs-02-215.port.shore.net>,
<did...@unshore.net> writes:
> In article <5olu2b$3...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, ja...@cornell.edu (John
> Fereira) wrote:
> > I can't say that I can really "define" folk music but I know it when I
> > hear it. I've heard Ani Difranco and wouldn't classify her as folk.
> folk is music for blind men & elephants. The elephants just feel it &
> sway along, the blind men attempt to analize it as it wiggles around in a
> petrie dish. Both factions seem to be vital to the whole experience...
Both the above statements equate to an admission that neither one of you
have given the subject much thought.
Folk music is easily definable; I've done so myself at least three times on
this thread, and since no-one has yet seen fit to argue with the definitions
I've offered, I'm pretty much assuming that most people agree with them.
Once again:
Folk music is music and lyrics from traditional sources.
Music or lyrics in a traditional style are arguably folk music.
Pop or art music ("classical" music) or lyrics that have passed into tradition
(here referring to the transmission of same by one amateur to another) are
also arguably "folk" music.
If anyone has a serious disagreement with this, I'd really like to hear it.
By these standards, none of the current crop of singer/songwriters of acoustic
pop music (eg, Ani DiFranco and Jewel) are folk artists.
Eric Berge
edb...@ibm.net
Francis Chen - Lynn Hill freed The Nose in a day!
In article <NEWTNews.867720712.13111.Eric_Berge@tirnanog>
> Folk music is easily definable; I've done so myself at least three times on
> this thread, and since no-one has yet seen fit to argue with the definitions
> I've offered, I'm pretty much assuming that most people agree with them.
>
> Once again:
>
> Folk music is music and lyrics from traditional sources.
>
> Music or lyrics in a traditional style are arguably folk music.
>
> Pop or art music ("classical" music) or lyrics that have passed into tradition
> (here referring to the transmission of same by one amateur to another) are
> also arguably "folk" music.
>
> If anyone has a serious disagreement with this, I'd really like to hear it.
>
> By these standards, none of the current crop of singer/songwriters of acoustic
> pop music (eg, Ani DiFranco and Jewel) are folk artists.
>
> Eric Berge
> edb...@ibm.net
>
Eric. I do not have a disagreement with your definition of folk music.
My "definition" does not have the parameters as yours, as you well
know. My POV tells me what I like about music. My mistake was to make
a universal application to how I perceive music. My perception is
just that. I think what is important is that we love music for what-
ever reasons that we have. So, you win! Yay.
MegaZone
wat...@selway.umt.edu (Charles Watkins) shaped the electrons to say:
>smarter to be cynical, just safer", to quote Jewel. When a singer gets
>the chance to ride a wave they'd better ride it for all it's worth,
>because it'll probably stop as quickly as it started.
How would you explain Ani DiFranco's success then?
-MZ
--
<URL:mailto:mega...@righteous-babe-records.com> Gweep, author, webmaster,
<URL:http://www.righteous-babe-records.com/> <-Coming Soon! human being, me
edb...@ibm.net
In article <1997Jun3...@nyssa.swt.edu>, fc0...@nyssa.swt.edu
(Francis Chen - Lynn Hill freed The Nose in a day!) wrote:
> Eric. I do not have a disagreement with your definition of folk music.
> My "definition" does not have the parameters as yours, as you well
> know.
?????????????
Those two sentences sound contradictory to me. Unless you are one of
those frustrating people who thinks that everything is a matter of
opinion, and that every opinion is equally valid. If this is the point
you are trying to make, please, say so.
And without wanting to be either mean or argumentative, no, I don't "well
know" what your definition of folk music is; I genuinely can't make heads
or tails out of your prose style.
> My POV tells me what I like about music. My mistake was to make
> a universal application to how I perceive music. My perception is
> just that. I think what is important is that we love music for what-
> ever reasons that we have. So, you win! Yay.
Eh? I'm not trying to "win" anything. What _exactly_ is your perception
of folk music? It's all very well to say that the important thing is to
love music; none of us would be posting on a music newsgroup if we hadn't
all passed that hurdle long ago. The important thing in a discussion of
what does and does not constitute folk music is the ability to define the
terms we are using.
To say that they are undefinable is a copout, and untrue besides, given
the number of definitions that have been offered up here over the years.
Not all opinions are equally valid; they should be weighed by the
knowledge and experience of the person expressing them, and by the skill
they display in the logic and rhetoric used to defend their views.
Actually, I suspect that my appreciation for music chugs along at a
relatively low level; I'm at very best an indifferent musician and my
ability to distinguish between what people whose opinions I trust say are
good and bad performances is poor. I am, however, very good at
memorizing lyrics and their variants and with understanding nuances of
the language employed in them.
George Hawes
Eric Berge <edb...@NOSPAM.ibm.net> wrote:
>In Article<33B6E6...@linkny.com>, <mat...@linkny.com> writes:
>> Jewel is neither pop nor folk.
<followed by some abuse>
>Calm down, get some manners, and listen to someone else if you don't like
>her stuff.
One shouldn't 'hear, hear!' but in this instance I'll make an
exception. Well spoken, Eric!
Regards
George
Heliotrope
In article <NEWTNews.867720712.13111.Eric_Berge@tirnanog>,
Eric Berge <edb...@NOSPAM.ibm.net> wrote:
>Folk music is music and lyrics from traditional sources.
<snip>
>If anyone has a serious disagreement with this, I'd really like to hear it.
>
>By these standards, none of the current crop of singer/songwriters of acoustic
>pop music (eg, Ani DiFranco and Jewel) are folk artists.
i don't know about that... i'm not a jewel listener, so i can't speak for
her, but how would you explain difranco's use of the traditional hymn
"amazing grace" in her music? wouldn't that count as folk?
--
-------------------------- rwes...@sophia.smith.edu -------------------------
"We will find a way, or we will make one." -- Hannibal
----------------------- http://www.smith.edu/~rwestmor -----------------------
Geof Gonter
In article <5pa38c$emj$1...@shell4.ba.best.com>,
mega...@righteous-babe-records.com (MegaZone) wrote:
>wat...@selway.umt.edu (Charles Watkins) shaped the electrons to say:
>>smarter to be cynical, just safer", to quote Jewel. When a singer gets
>>the chance to ride a wave they'd better ride it for all it's worth,
>>because it'll probably stop as quickly as it started.
>
>How would you explain Ani DiFranco's success then?
Success is objective. what measure do you use album sales, concert
attendance, performance quality, or pleasurable performances. Usually it
has very little to with quality. That explains why many people like
Michael Bolton, Kenny G., Brooks & Dun, and other mediocre artists are
anomg the top selling in record sales. It has a lot to do with marketing
and packaging and little to do with talent. BTW, I don't have an opinion
on Jewel or Ani as I have heard little of their work, beyond the
commercial air play.
---Geof Gonter---
Burlington, VT's "MacChamp" - http://www.sover.net/~gm7234/macintosh.html
Interested in Vermont's MacJam97? Visit - http://homepages.together.net/~ggonter
John Fereira
In article <NEWTNews.867720712.13111.Eric_Berge@tirnanog>,
Eric Berge <edb...@NOSPAM.ibm.net> wrote:
>
><did...@unshore.net> writes:
>> In article <5olu2b$3...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, ja...@cornell.edu (John
>> Fereira) wrote:
>
>> > I can't say that I can really "define" folk music but I know it when I
>> > hear it. I've heard Ani Difranco and wouldn't classify her as folk.
>
>> folk is music for blind men & elephants. The elephants just feel it &
>> sway along, the blind men attempt to analize it as it wiggles around in a
>> petrie dish. Both factions seem to be vital to the whole experience...
>
>Both the above statements equate to an admission that neither one of you
>have given the subject much thought.
>
>this thread, and since no-one has yet seen fit to argue with the definitions
>I've offered, I'm pretty much assuming that most people agree with them.
>
>Once again:
>
Which impies that no new folk music is written until it is
amended with:
>Music or lyrics in a traditional style are arguably folk music.
OK, now define "traditional style".
John Fereira
ja...@cornell.edu
Charles K. Watkins
MegaZone wrote:
>
> wat...@selway.umt.edu (Charles Watkins) shaped the electrons to say:
> >smarter to be cynical, just safer", to quote Jewel. When a singer gets
> >the chance to ride a wave they'd better ride it for all it's worth,
> >because it'll probably stop as quickly as it started.
>
> How would you explain Ani DiFranco's success then?
Gee, I don't know. Maybe a fortunate exception? Ani made the personal
decision to go it alone and has been slowly gaining a fan base. Before
Dilate she sold about 500k records. Not much of a wave, more like the
tide. Different strokes for different folks.
the drowning man
Geof Gonter (ggo...@together.net) wrote:
: Success is objective. what measure do you use album sales, concert
: attendance, performance quality, or pleasurable performances. Usually it
: has very little to with quality. That explains why many people like
: Michael Bolton, Kenny G., Brooks & Dun, and other mediocre artists are
: anomg the top selling in record sales.
I certainly hope you meant "subjective," not "objective"...
tdm
--
"You know how women always say that men aren't emotionally available.
Well, a lot of women aren't emotionally available. It's like, if you're
vulnerable, we say, 'Look, we need you to be sensitive.' So you become
sensitive, and then we go, 'You've got no fuckin' backbone,' and we kick you
in the face and run off with a ski trainer."
--Tori Amos
George Hawes
rwes...@sophia.smith.edu (Heliotrope) wrote:
>In article <NEWTNews.867720712.13111.Eric_Berge@tirnanog>,
>Eric Berge <edb...@NOSPAM.ibm.net> wrote:
>>Folk music is music and lyrics from traditional sources.
><snip>
>>If anyone has a serious disagreement with this, I'd really like to hear it.
>>
>>By these standards, none of the current crop of singer/songwriters of acoustic
>>pop music (eg, Ani DiFranco and Jewel) are folk artists.
>i don't know about that... i'm not a jewel listener, so i can't speak for
>her, but how would you explain difranco's use of the traditional hymn
>"amazing grace" in her music? wouldn't that count as folk?
Clearly a non-folk singer can sing a folk song, just as a folk
singer can sing a non-folk song. Any such classification - in so
far as it has any worth - can only be made of the 'generality'
of someone's repetoire.
OTOH, it's probably debatable as to whether Amazing Grace is
'folk' at all, especially in the version in which it's most
widely known . .
Regards
George
George Hawes
ja...@cornell.edu (John Fereira) wrote:
>In article <NEWTNews.867720712.13111.Eric_Berge@tirnanog>,
> Eric Berge <edb...@NOSPAM.ibm.net> wrote:
<much snipped>
>>Folk music is music and lyrics from traditional sources.
>Which impies that no new folk music is written until it is
>amended with:
>>Music or lyrics in a traditional style are arguably folk music.
>OK, now define "traditional style".
He doesn't need to, since that's the point where you can argue,
surely? ;-)
George
Grendel
Eric Berge wrote:
> Folk music is easily definable; I've done so myself at least three times on
> this thread, and since no-one has yet seen fit to argue with the definitions
> I've offered, I'm pretty much assuming that most people agree with them.
>
> Once again:
>
> Folk music is music and lyrics from traditional sources.
>
> Music or lyrics in a traditional style are arguably folk music.
>
> Pop or art music ("classical" music) or lyrics that have passed into tradition
> (here referring to the transmission of same by one amateur to another) are
> also arguably "folk" music.
>
> If anyone has a serious disagreement with this, I'd really like to hear it.
I would not disagree that any of the above definitions are not "folk
music". However, I would disagree that "folk music" is limited to those
definitions. They do not allow for any reinvention of the style. Think
Miles Davis doing "Kind of Blue" vs. "Bitches Brew". Two radically
different styles that still fit (in my book) under the umbrella of
jazz. I can't offer a better, broader definition of folk. But I will
say that to me, "folk music" basically implies nothing more than music
that will use the folk tradition as a frame of reference -- not as a
strict format.
> By these standards, none of the current crop of singer/songwriters of acoustic
> pop music (eg, Ani DiFranco and Jewel) are folk artists.
By my standards, both are folk artists in the sense that their music
draws from the folk tradition as well as many other forms. Mind you, I
don't care much for Jewel, and I think Ani stretches the bounds of folk
as far as they will go. They don't do "traditional folk", or even
"contemporary folk". I wouldn't file them under "folk" in a music
store.
BTW, I realize I'm jumping into a thread that I have not followed in its
entirety. I hope I'm not repeating any discredited arguments!
Grendel.
-=-Douglas Aldridge-=-
remove *NOSPAM* to reply
or mail douglasa@thecia(dot)net
bswe...@hamilton.edu
Eric Berge wrote:
> Pop or art music ("classical" music) or lyrics that have passed into tradition
> (here referring to the transmission of same by one amateur to another) are
> also arguably "folk" music.
>
> OTOH, it's probably debatable as to whether Amazing Grace is
> 'folk' at all, especially in the version in which it's most
> widely known . .
>
Breton
and Spanish pipers in one session and several other verions in others,
there
is no question in my mind that Amazing Grace is folk at the very least
by the
definition that Eric proposes. There are now so many variations on the
basic
E.O. Excell arrangement that it has taken on a folk life of it's own.
This is a lead in to the question I've been asking among friends for a
while.
When did you first hear Amazing Grace and/or when did you first hear it
as folk
music instead of a hymn? With the underlying question of when did the
folk scene
pick it up as the sort of ultimate in folk hymns? And more importantly,
when did
it become the ultimate pipe tune?:-)
I learned Amazing Grace as part of the religious revival of the early
70's
(AKA the Jesus Revolution) I'm not sure when I first heard it treated as
folk,
but I really noticed it at a fund raiser for Prairie Home Companion in
Minneapolis probably @1979,1980. So far people over 40 who did not learn
it in
church growing up usually say they learned it from Judy Collins.
Just for background.
The basic tune we connect with Amazing Grace was published in a number
of variants,
under several different titles, and with different lyrics in shape note
tunebooks
beginning at least in 1829. As the tune New Britain it was paired with
Newton's
words in Southern Harmony in 1834? and included in The Sacred Harp 1844.
There
are minor differences between this tune and the tune most of us sing
with AG now.
In 1909 E.O. Excell's arrangement of the tune as most of us now know it
along with the floating verse "When we've been there..." that was not
part of Newton's hymn
was published in World Renowned Hymns. It was later included in
Methodist and
Baptist Hymnals but as late as 1950's was not in enough hymnals to be
included
in a hymnal commentary of 'core' hymns that I have looked at.
So far as the words are concerned, I have seen them in several 19th and
early
20th century hymnals paired with other Common Meter tunes.
Eric Berge
In Article<33BACF...@hamilton.edu>, <bswe...@hamilton.edu> writes:
> Eric Berge wrote:
> > Pop or art music ("classical" music) or lyrics that have passed into
tradition
> > (here referring to the transmission of same by one amateur to another) are
> > also arguably "folk" music.
> >
> George Hawes wrote:
> > OTOH, it's probably debatable as to whether Amazing Grace is
> > 'folk' at all, especially in the version in which it's most
> > widely known . .
> This is a lead in to the question I've been asking among friends for a
> while. When did you first hear Amazing Grace and/or when did you first hear
> it as folk music instead of a hymn? With the underlying question of when did
> the folk scene pick it up as the sort of ultimate in folk hymns? And more
> importantly, when did it become the ultimate pipe tune?:-)
Amazing Grace is not a song that I know much about beyond the basic history
you included in the rest of your post; I do, however, have a couple of
comments on the above:
1) I don't see the need to make a distinction between "hymns" and
"folk music"; there are a number of liturgical or quasi-liturgical
pieces that easily qualify as folk tunes.
2) This is going to sound odd, but I don't think I've ever heard AG on the
pipes. This is probably indicative of how much (or how little) I listen
to bagpipe music.
3) The earliest memory I have of AG is probably of Joan Baez singing it on
one of her concert albums.
Eric Berge
edb...@ibm.net
Heliotrope
In article <5pd6or$1...@shiny.i-cubed.co.uk>,
George Hawes <George...@i-cubed.co.uk> wrote:
>OTOH, it's probably debatable as to whether Amazing Grace is
>'folk' at all, especially in the version in which it's most
>widely known . .
why wouldn't you consider it folk? and what version is it that you're
talking about? i first heard the song in a southern baptist church in
atlanta, georgia, usa, and have always been familiar with it as a hymn
(and was quite surprised to hear about it on _dilate_). as far as i know,
there's no qualification saying that folk music need be secular.
rachel
--
-------------------------- rwes...@sophia.smith.edu -------------------------
"Do I dare/ Disturb the universe?/ In a minute there is time/
For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse." -- T.S. Eliot
----------------------- http://www.smith.edu/~rwestmor -----------------------
Richard L. Hess
I grew up attending the Reformed Church in America and gradually
drifted towards the Episcopal Church (the US arm of the worldwide
Anglican Church).
I don't recall ever singing/hearing "Amazing Grace" at either the
Reformed Church or the Episcopal Church prior to hearing it from Judy
Collins. I often listened to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir broadcasts as
well and don't recall hearing it there, either.
In checking my hymnals at hand. Neither the Hymn nor the tune "New
Britain" appears in the 1940 Episcopal Hymnal nor the 1985 (current)
LDS (Mormon) hymnal.
Happily, it DOES appear in the 1982 (current) Episcopal Hymnal, with
five verses:
Amazing Grace how sweet the sound...
Twas Grace that taught my heart to fear...
The Lord has promised good to me...
Through many dangers toils and snares...
When we've been there ten thousand years...
I'll admit to learning it from Judy Collins's "Whales and
Nightingales" LP. I recall being so anxious as to when the new Judy
album was going to come out, I actually called Elektra and asked them
and they told me the cuts that would be on it and the release date.
Have I been a Judy fan for long enough? <grin>
Here is a mini "Amazing Grace" discography for Judy Collins. It has
been a very important part of Judy's life and it was not expected to
chart, but did. "Whales and Nighingales" is a wonderful LP...I just
listened to it last night.
=============
Original Release: "Whales and Nightingales" - 1970 Nov 12 (Certified
Gold, 1971 Apr 6) - Elektra EKS-75010 (stereo LP), 75010-2 (CD),
TC5-75010 (cassette) This was recorded at St. Paul's Chapel at
Columbia University in New York City with many of Judy's friends
forming the choir.
This version was re-released on:
"Colors of the Day, The Best of" (Cert. Gold, 1974 Jan 22) - 1972 May
8 - Elektra EKS-75030 (Stereo LP), 75030-2 (CD),
TC5-75030 (Cassette)
"Judy Collins" (8 sides) - 1981 - Book of the Month Club Records BOMC
61-6462 (Stereo 4LP)
"Amazing Grace" - 1993 - Elektra/Pickwick 9548-31616-2 (CD)
============
1985 English recording: "Amazing Grace" (English Release Only) - 1985
- Telstar TCD2265 (CD)
This version was re-released on:
"Trust Your Heart" - 1987 - Gold Castle 171 002-1 (stereo LP), 171
002-2 (CD), 171 002-4 (cassette); Attic 1330 (CD)
"Wind Beneath My Wings" - 1992 Feb 26 - Laserlight 15 451 (CD)
"Come Rejoice! A Judy Collins Christmas" - 1994 Sep 19 - Mesa/Bluemoon
8122 79085 2 (CD)
============
There is a talking book by Judy Collins that is entitled "Amazing
Grace" and is a wonderful discussion of the hymn and what it means to
her. An easy place to get it is Amazon.com.
"Amazing Grace" - 1991 - Random House AudioBooks ISBN: 0-679-41058-9
(Cassette)
A Personal Recollection And Rendition of the Hymn Performed by Judy
Collins (Includes three verses never recorded before) approximately
39 minutes
===========
There is a book by Judy called "Amazing Grace" that is out of print
and I've not been able to find it. I'd LOVE a copy!!!
===========
There is a WONDERFUL video that contains a Judy Collins segment
called:
"Amazing Grace" (History) From PBS Special with Bill Moyers 1994
In this 90-minute video, Bill Moyers explores the meaning of this
popular hymn with Jessye Norman, Johnny Cash, Jean Ritchie, and
the Boy's Choir Of Harlem. Judy sings Amazing Grace in St. Paul's
Chapel at Columbia University where she made the original
recording for the album Whales and Nightingales in 1970. Judy also
talks about how this song carried her through the
depths of her alcoholism. A must-have!
Released by Newbridge Communications 800/257-5126 or 609/275-1400
========== ========== ==========
Here is a mini Joan Baez "Amazing Grace" Discography
Joan has only recorded "Amazing Grace" live. It first appeared on the
album "From Every Stage" Original release date: January 1976
That version has been re-released several times by A&M
on the following albums
"A&M Classics, Volume 8" (1987)
(also called "Imagine" in Europe)
"Essential/From The Heart" (European Release)
(1990 A subset of "From Every Stage")
"Diamonds" (European release 1996)
"Greatest Hits" (digitally remastered 1996)
(a fine and very popular collection of A&M
material)
A different, live version is on the box set "Rare, Live & Classic."
"Recorded in concert .... 1982 ... previously unreleased."
This song was also important to Joan at a major point in her career.
Quoting from the booklet that comes with the box set, "In 1985 I gave
a concert..and ended the show with 'Amazing Grace.' This occurred
during that not-so-happy time in my career in the States when it
became apparent to me that I would have to work to re-establish myself
musically. It took me a long time to realize that the only person who
could do anything about that was myself. For awhile I blamed the
media, the record companies, and even the audience and during that
time I didn't get my act together."
"What happened was that the audience started to sing with me, and they
sounded so beautiful. Then something clicked, 'This is why I'm here."
When people sing like this and we become a community, I'm doing what I
was meant to do best. It was a turning point for me, a reminder that
there were other things to remember besides my commercial career. It
was proof that there was a greater meaning for people and myself about
what I do on stage. The commercial considerations are there, of
course, buit it was a great joy because they sang so beautifully."
"I went to pieces. I don't know how I got through it. One can't cry
and sing at the same time. It was a bit of an ethereal experience on
stage."
============================
For more information on Judy Collins, Joan Baez and links to their
official sites, please visit my web pages at:
http://www.mindspring.com/~rlhess
Happy Canada Day and Happy Independence Day to All!!!
Cheers!
Richard
George Hawes
Grendel <douglasa@*NOSPAM*usa1.com> wrote:
>Eric Berge wrote:
<Eric's definitions snipped>
>I would not disagree that any of the above definitions are not "folk
>music". However, I would disagree that "folk music" is limited to those
>definitions. They do not allow for any reinvention of the style.
<Jazz example snipped, sorry but that only confuses the point>
> I can't offer a better, broader definition of folk. But I will
>say that to me, "folk music" basically implies nothing more than music
>that will use the folk tradition as a frame of reference -- not as a
>strict format.
At which point you risk making the term meaningless - which was
a large part of Eric's point.
>> By these standards, none of the current crop of singer/songwriters of acoustic
>> pop music (eg, Ani DiFranco and Jewel) are folk artists.
Q.E.D., IMHO . . .
George
George Hawes
rwes...@sophia.smith.edu (Heliotrope) wrote:
>In article <5pd6or$1...@shiny.i-cubed.co.uk>,
>George Hawes <George...@i-cubed.co.uk> wrote:
>>OTOH, it's probably debatable as to whether Amazing Grace is
>>'folk' at all, especially in the version in which it's most
>>widely known . .
>why wouldn't you consider it folk?
OK, I stand corrected . . For many years the only versions I'd
heard were very 'prettyfied' - Judy Collins (?) and other very
'non-folk' performers. Then I heard a couple of treatments which
were closer to the original (the one that stick in the mind is
Peter Bellamy's although that was not the first) and - although
the words were the same, in impact they were different songs.
But it's still the 'pretty-pretty' version I hear most often.
Seems you guys over there are much more in touch with the
original, and I'm pleased to recognise the fact.
I suppose my real point (after all, this started in a 'what is
Folk' thread) was that it's possible to take a folk song and
turn it into an emasculated object which - to my ears and brain
- no longer has any connection with Folk music.
Regards
George
Matt Griffin
> In Article<didlidi-3006...@mfs-02-215.port.shore.net>,
> <did...@unshore.net> writes:
> > In article <5olu2b$3...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, ja...@cornell.edu (John
> > Fereira) wrote:
>
> > > I can't say that I can really "define" folk music but I know it when I
> > > hear it. I've heard Ani Difranco and wouldn't classify her as folk.
>
> > folk is music for blind men & elephants. The elephants just feel it &
> > sway along, the blind men attempt to analize it as it wiggles around in a
> > petrie dish. Both factions seem to be vital to the whole experience...
>
> Both the above statements equate to an admission that neither one of you
> have given the subject much thought.
>
> Folk music is easily definable; I've done so myself at least three times on
> this thread, and since no-one has yet seen fit to argue with the definitions
> I've offered, I'm pretty much assuming that most people agree with them.
>
> Once again:
>
> Folk music is music and lyrics from traditional sources.
>
> Music or lyrics in a traditional style are arguably folk music.
>
> Pop or art music ("classical" music) or lyrics that have passed into tradition
> (here referring to the transmission of same by one amateur to another) are
> also arguably "folk" music.
>
> If anyone has a serious disagreement with this, I'd really like to hear it.
>
> By these standards, none of the current crop of singer/songwriters of acoustic
> pop music (eg, Ani DiFranco and Jewel) are folk artists.
>
> Eric Berge
> edb...@ibm.net
I have indeed given the idea of defining "folk music" a great deal of thought.
The problem is that it's all so slippery, like the Heisenberg principle.
The minute you start analyzing it, it goes from actually being folk music
to being some academic intellectual artifact. Folk music should be
*alive*, constantly being created & altered. The minute you try to put it
in a museum, to try to legitimise it as *tradition*, you turn it into
something else. And who are you to say what's traditional and what isn't
anyway? Why can't the recorded "pop" music of the latter half of the
twentieth century be considered a tradition? How much a part of our
everyday lives are the recordings of the Beatles, Elvis, Madonna, Frank
Sinatra, etc.? Much more so in this day and age than things like Nancy
Whiskey, St. James Infirmary, The Buffalo Skinners, what have you. How
many stories are there out and about concerning the life & legend of
Elvis, stories passed both by technological media and word of mouth?
Aren't these stories just our modern way of mythmaking? If the story of
Elvis' loading his entourage onto his private lear jet and flying to
Denver for "the world's best peanut butter sandwiches" doesn't have deep
metaphorical connotations in our culture, I don't know what does. You may
not *like* all the various meanings you can draw from that story, but I
think you'd have to work pretty hard at denying it's significance.
And that's mot to say by any means that I don't feel a great deal of
spiritual power from "traditional" song, thinks that speak of where we
were as a country a century ago, i.e. "Wreck of the Old '97" which I'm
including on my upcoming CD, and which I do because it was in my
Grandfather's repertoire, or even farther back, as far as you can go --
John Barleycorn, any number of Celtic tunes (see I am somewhat aware of
the body of material, so let me not drop any more names), whatever. I
think this stuff is so important to our culture, because it brings our
experience as human beings through the ages to life, it taps something
deeper than simple mundane experience, it refreshes our awareness of who
we are. But in my mind it's not separate, and to try and compartmentalize
it all simply robs it of it's meaning and power. And for a lot of people
(myself included), being exclusive and arrogant about it, feeling that
people who disagree with you about it "just don't understand" robs it of
just that much more interest.
I've seen several people tackle this argument in various different ways
and I have to say your arguments always seem arbitrary and cold. My other
post on this subject is *not* a sign of my lack of thought on the matter,
it's simply an expression of my willingness not to be bound by definitions
that don't suit any real human need, other than some sort of hidebound
archaeological preservationism.
If you want the man on the street, the everyday workaday person to care
about folk music as you do, it needs to fit into *his* traditions too.
Saying he doesn't have traditions is exclusivist arrogance, and the
furthest from anything *I* would define as "folk".
John Fereira
In article <33b97...@news.smith.edu>,
rwes...@sophia.smith.edu (Heliotrope) wrote:
>In article <NEWTNews.867720712.13111.Eric_Berge@tirnanog>,
>Eric Berge <edb...@NOSPAM.ibm.net> wrote:
>
>>Folk music is music and lyrics from traditional sources.
>
>
>>If anyone has a serious disagreement with this, I'd really like to hear it.
>>
>>By these standards, none of the current crop of singer/songwriters of
acoustic
>>pop music (eg, Ani DiFranco and Jewel) are folk artists.
>
>her, but how would you explain difranco's use of the traditional hymn
>"amazing grace" in her music? wouldn't that count as folk?
That would account for one song. Maura O'Connell and Alison Krause both
cover a few old Beatles songs but that doesn't make them rock-n-roll artists.
John Fereira
ja...@cornell.edu
Fenian of Erin
In article <NEWTNews.867893259.74.Eric_Berge@tirnanog>,
Eric Berge <edb...@NOSPAM.ibm.net> wrote:
>Amazing Grace is not a song that I know much about beyond the basic history
>you included in the rest of your post; I do, however, have a couple of
>comments on the above:
it was written (if this was in another post, i missed it; sorry) by a
reformed slave trader as a testimonial to his religious conversion and
subsequent opposition to slavery.
>1) I don't see the need to make a distinction between "hymns" and
> "folk music"; there are a number of liturgical or quasi-liturgical
> pieces that easily qualify as folk tunes.
i count many pieces of church music as folk because they are learned in
church and then passed on; after learning "amazing grace," for example, i
taught it to a group of kids at my ymca summer camp. isn't that one of
the generally agreed-upon criteria for that amorphous mass known as folk
music?
>2) This is going to sound odd, but I don't think I've ever heard AG on the
> pipes. This is probably indicative of how much (or how little) I listen
> to bagpipe music.
i've heard it on bagpipes: at a (very scottish) cousin's funeral.
jer...@nonet.att.co.kr
On Wed, 02 Jul 1997 17:59:07 -0400, bswe...@hamilton.edu wrote:
>Eric Berge wrote:
>> Pop or art music ("classical" music) or lyrics that have passed into tradition
>> (here referring to the transmission of same by one amateur to another) are
>> also arguably "folk" music.
>>
>George Hawes wrote:
>> OTOH, it's probably debatable as to whether Amazing Grace is
>> 'folk' at all, especially in the version in which it's most
>> widely known . .
>>
>Having just been to Old Songs where we sang Amazing Grace complete with
>Breton and Spanish pipers in one session and several other verions in others,
>there is no question in my mind that Amazing Grace is folk at the very least
>by the definition that Eric proposes. There are now so many variations on the
>basic E.O. Excell arrangement that it has taken on a folk life of it's own.
>
>This is a lead in to the question I've been asking among friends for a
>while. When did you first hear Amazing Grace and/or when did you first hear it
>as folk music instead of a hymn? With the underlying question of when did the
>folk scene pick it up as the sort of ultimate in folk hymns? And more importantly,
>when did it become the ultimate pipe tune?:-)
>
>I learned Amazing Grace as part of the religious revival of the early
>70's (AKA the Jesus Revolution) I'm not sure when I first heard it treated as
>folk, but I really noticed it at a fund raiser for Prairie Home Companion in
>Minneapolis probably @1979,1980. So far people over 40 who did not learn
>it in church growing up usually say they learned it from Judy Collins.
>
I first heard in the early 70s as f ...er, accoustic-music-sung-by-a-
bunch-of-folks-who-weren't-being-religious-at-the-time. I can't say who or when
I actually had first contact - the song just sort of insinuated itself into the
collective conciousness of the f...er accousticly-oriented, group-singing,
folk-festival-attending community.
I heard a great call-and-answer version once at a singing session at Old Songs:
Ama-
Ama-
-zing grace,
grace
how sweet
How sweet, how sweet the sound
That saved
saved
A wretch
wretch
Like me
That saved a wretch like me..
Must go ~ I'm feeling a little dehyphenated.
Jeri
Anti-Spam Alert
Please replace "nonet" with "inet" in my address when replying.
George Hawes
did...@unshore.net (Matt Griffin) wrote:
<background - and Eric's definition snipped>
>I have indeed given the idea of defining "folk music" a great deal of thought.
Haven't we all . . .
>The problem is that it's all so slippery, like the Heisenberg principle.
Nice analogy, but . .
>The minute you start analyzing it, it goes from actually being folk music
>to being some academic intellectual artifact.
No, it doesn't, if you start off from a reasonable working (and
workable) definition of Folk Music. This is exactly why (and
possibly the only reason why) such a definition is valuable. If
you just start off from a 'feel' for what is and isn't folk
music then things are, indeed, very slippery.
>Folk music should be
>*alive*, constantly being created & altered. The minute you try to put it
>in a museum, to try to legitimise it as *tradition*, you turn it into
>something else.
As evidenced by that piece of woolly thinking! A tradition is a
tradition (good or bad); talk of 'legitimising something as a
tradition' is a nonsense. And a Folk song may or may not be part
of any current tradition; even if it only exists in a museum
context it remains a folk song.
By way of example, F Child's collection of English and Scottish
Ballads IS a museum; Child more or less takes the songs and
presents them as museum exhibits (stripped of their music, for
heavens sake!!). But the Ballads remain Folk songs (many of
which remained in the tradition long after Child's work), and so
Child's collection remains an invaluable reference work for
those whose interest in Folk includes ballads.
Where I would agree with you (and where I believe you get
yourself confused) is that when it comes to performing the
material it has to be treated as living matter rather than as a
museum exhibit; if you can't bring some contemporary
significance to the performance of the work then you are no
longer PERFORMING it as a folk song.
All IMHO, of course.
Regards
George
George Hawes
rlh...@mindspring.com (Richard L. Hess) wrote:
Having seeming sparked this thread (by a careless remark which
was intended as an aside) I'd like to clarify what I meant -
although Richard will disagree with me.
I didn't doubt that AG IS a folk song - or a song which is in
the folk tradition. My point was that the performances of it I
hear most often lack the 'balls' of the original, and turn a
powerful folk work into a pretty MOR/art piece. To my mind an
example of this treatment (and the model for most of the
performances I've heard of it in UK folk clubs) is the Judy
Collins recording . . .
But each to his own . . .
Regards
George
A.J. Davis
Amazing Grace (i.e. the tune that usually goes to those
words)is widely used as a carol tune in traditional english
music and many different lyrics are set to it including, for
example, 'While Shepherds watched'. Dr Ian Russell
discusses the tune several times in his publications on
traditional carols.
As for the hoary old 'what is folk ?' query - there seems to
be a growing realisation among traditional music researchers
that 'folk' is a use label (defining what people *do* with a
piece) rather than a label indicating a style or a
particular mode of transmission.
Andrew Davis
University of Leeds, Yorkshire
England, LS2 9JT UK
a.j....@uk.ac.leeds
Ian Anderson
MegaZone wrote:
>
> How would you explain Ani DiFranco's success then?
Talent?
--
Ian Anderson
Folk Roots magazine
fro...@froots.demon.co.uk
http://www.froots.demon.co.uk/
remove anti-junkmail .off to reply
jer...@nonet.att.co.kr
On Fri, 04 Jul 1997 10:41:25 GMT, George...@i-cubed.co.uk (George Hawes)
wrote:
<some snippage>
>Having seeming sparked this thread (by a careless remark which
>was intended as an aside) I'd like to clarify what I meant -
>although Richard will disagree with me
That's how it *always* starts. Seems like an awful ot of threads
deteriorate into folk/not folk. It's one of those buttons it's very easy
to accidentally push.
>I didn't doubt that AG IS a folk song - or a song which is in
>the folk tradition. My point was that the performances of it I
>hear most often lack the 'balls' of the original, and turn a
>powerful folk work into a pretty MOR/art piece. To my mind an
>example of this treatment (and the model for most of the
>performances I've heard of it in UK folk clubs) is the Judy
>Collins recording . . .
The first time I actually remember the song was from a folk festival.
Somebody on stage led it, but the audience was singing it so loud, that you
couldn't hear the performer sing *with* the verses even with the
(reasonable) amplification. My head rang with the harmonies - it was a
truely *religious* experience (and I'm an atheist).
I know I heard the song before this - I knew the words - I just don't
remember where - no "balls".
I enjoy folk music so much because of its participative nature. It seems
that in these later years, there's more focus on the listening and less on
the singing. There's nothing wrong with listening, I just miss being able
to sing more.
Frank Reid
In Article <33baf...@news.smith.edu> "rwes...@sophia.smith.edu (Heliotrope)" says:
> In article <5pd6or$1...@shiny.i-cubed.co.uk>,
>
> >OTOH, it's probably debatable as to whether Amazing Grace is
> >'folk' at all, especially in the version in which it's most
> >widely known . .
>
> talking about? i first heard the song in a southern baptist church in
> atlanta, georgia, usa, and have always been familiar with it as a hymn
> (and was quite surprised to hear about it on _dilate_). as far as i know,
> there's no qualification saying that folk music need be secular.
>
> rachel
the Mickey Mouse Club song:
Amazing grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me;
I once was lost but not I'm found, was blind but now I see.
Now I see! Now I see!
Forever let us hold His banner high, high, high high!
A-M-A-Z-I-N-G G-R-A-C-E
I once was lost but now I'm found, was blind but now I see.
--
Frank re...@indiana.edu
BTW, you can also sing it to the tune of Gilligan's Island.
Frog
In article <33B6E6...@linkny.com>, mat...@linkny.com wrote:
> Jewel is neither pop nor folk. She is a puppet controlled by music
> company-moguls to put money in their pockets. The last time I checked,
> that didn't have much to do with music.
Be that as it may, her music isn't all that original either. She sounds
like a total cop of a band called Frente. Not all of Frente's music mind
you, just a certain style.
Frank Hamilton
Hi,
I think that Amazing Grace as it's lined out in the Southern churches
might be categorized as a folk song. Almost every traditional singer
from the Appalachian region of the U.S. knows this song and probably
have variants on it. I believe that someone, (Sam Hinton?) said that
variations have been found in the Sacred Harp collections. The usual
"refined" version done in the standard way is typical of what everyone
knows. But there are a lot of hymns that when sung in folk
communities in the South and elsewhere turn out differently. A
notable example of this is the song "Sometimes I Feel Like a
Motherless Child" collected by Sydney Robertson Cowell (The wife of
the composer Henry Cowell) which was originally known as a "white
spiritual" sung in the mountains and not associated with the
African-American tradition for which it's reputed to be.
Cordially,
Frank Hamilton
Richard L. Hess
>rlh...@mindspring.com (Richard L. Hess) wrote:
>Having seeming sparked this thread (by a careless remark which
>was intended as an aside) I'd like to clarify what I meant -
>although Richard will disagree with me.
>I didn't doubt that AG IS a folk song - or a song which is in
>the folk tradition. My point was that the performances of it I
>hear most often lack the 'balls' of the original, and turn a
>powerful folk work into a pretty MOR/art piece. To my mind an
>example of this treatment (and the model for most of the
>performances I've heard of it in UK folk clubs) is the Judy
>Collins recording . . .
George,
I come to music as much through church music as anything and although
Judy's original version charted, I still consider it a good hymn
rendition. See, I am disagreeing with you as you suggested I might
<smile>.
The second version is also done with a mixed choir and perhaps even
more follows what I'd expect from a hymn-anthem in church.
Judy has pleased me combining her great talents with several New York
City choirs, including the St. Thomas Church choir which, founded
about 80 years ago by T. Tertius Noble of Yorkminster remains the last
traditional residential Anglican boychoir in the USA.
Anyway, I am sure that there are versions with more "balls" which I
have not heard which I would like to hear. Also, the "lining-out"
versions done by Joan Baez are very different and interesting.
Cheers!
Richard
George Hawes
PAB...@leeds.ac.uk (A.J. Davis) wrote:
<snip>
>As for the hoary old 'what is folk ?' query
Actually there's a number of versions of that query; mine was
the 'should Folk Music be performed with due reverence or firing
on all cylinders' version. ;-)
>- there seems to
>be a growing realisation
Heavens save us from realisations and shifting definitions . .
>among traditional music researchers
>that 'folk' is a use label (defining what people *do* with a
>piece) rather than a label indicating a style or a
>particular mode of transmission.
Is this why traditional music researchers (in the Academic
research field) have always been virtually irrelevant to the
English Folk Song tradition?
Your terms 'use', 'syle' and 'transmission' really require
elaboration before one can comment on the value of this
realisation. At first sight I've little problem with agreeing
that style isn't a criterieon (but it is a characteristic of
many folk traditions); but I would be interested to know how
'mode of transmission' is not considered relevant to the
classification of something as folk,
Also - are you saying the 'rules' for folk music classification
are different to those for classifying other 'folk' areas?
Regards
George
Charles Watkins
In article <elfving-0607...@10.0.2.15>,
Frog <elf...@uiowa.edu> wrote:
>
>Be that as it may, her music isn't all that original either. She sounds
>like a total cop of a band called Frente. Not all of Frente's music mind
>you, just a certain style.
These are three rather odd statements. First, her music isn't original.
Jewel claims that her major musical influence was Ella Fitzgerald, yet she
does not emulate her style. She claims never to have heard Joni Mitchell
before her CD came out, yet she is constantly compared to her. I have
been listening to Ella, Joni, Bob Dylan and a multitude of others since
I became musically aware in the '60s. Although all music is necessarily
derivitive, I see no attempt by Jewel to copy anyone else's style,
deliberate or otherwise.
Second, "She sounds like a total cop of a band called Frente." Odds are,
if your asked her she probably wouldn't know who or what Frente is. And
which songs to you think are a total rip off of Frente? "Memoirs of a
Housewife", Rocker Girl", "Amen"? Three totally unique songs with three
completely different styles. Does Frente sound like any of these?
And, last, "Not all of Frente's music mind you, just a certain style."
So, you back-pedal here a bit. I don't blame you. I'm sure that "a
certain style" similarity can be found between almost any two current
popular artists. But that doesn't make one a rip-off of the other. Don't
you agree?
Cheers.
--
Chopped Liver (Charlie)
wat...@selway.umt.edu
Share publicly, flame privately,
ghost
In article <5pp3q3$3...@camel3.mindspring.com> ham...@atl.mindspring.com writes:
>I think that Amazing Grace as it's lined out in the Southern churches
>might be categorized as a folk song. Almost every traditional singer
>from the Appalachian region of the U.S. knows this song and probably
>have variants on it. I believe that someone, (Sam Hinton?) said that
>variations have been found in the Sacred Harp collections. The usual
There's a version in the current Cooper-edition branch of Sacred Harp that,
as far as I've heard it sung, probably is written, in the tenor line at
least, very close to the now-popular Black Gospel version.
The Denson-edition branch has the original "New Britain", which in my opinion
is one of the few songs that is *not* better in its pentatonic/modal version.
(You aren't missing that much if you haven't heard "New Britain",
in other words.)
AzeemAK
I've only heard one song by Jewel (which didn't leave much of an
impression), so this isn't really about her. I just wanted to share my
delight at seeing some intelligently argued debate about what this
newsgroup is supposed to be about, namely music. I'm sure I'm not the
only one who's fed up with endless whitterings about the Spice Girls, not
to mention "Fuck Jesus", and whether Prozak Ray is a bestial necrophiliac.
As we Brits say, it's about the sodding music!
dt king
Richard L. Hess wrote:
>
> I grew up attending the Reformed Church in America and gradually
> drifted towards the Episcopal Church (the US arm of the worldwide
> Anglican Church).
>
> I don't recall ever singing/hearing "Amazing Grace" at either the
> Reformed Church or the Episcopal Church prior to hearing it from Judy
> Collins. I often listened to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir broadcasts as
> well and don't recall hearing it there, either.
>
> In checking my hymnals at hand. Neither the Hymn nor the tune "New
> Britain" appears in the 1940 Episcopal Hymnal nor the 1985 (current)
> LDS (Mormon) hymnal.
>
> Happily, it DOES appear in the 1982 (current) Episcopal Hymnal, with
> five verses:
>
You just went to the wrong churches, I think. I grew up in Utah,
attending the First Southern Baptist Church. The hymn was a weekly
favorite. Half the services ended with the congregation singing the
prime-numbered verses while the pastor did his impassioned plea for
folks to "dedicate their lives to God."
It's the one hymn I play, because when the soprano recorder builds up to
that upper C you get a wonderful keening that makes the squirrels stand
up and say, "what the hell is that?" I always make sure I have plenty
of breath for that note so I can stretch it out way beyond common human
decency.
dtk
--
Yamaha recorders are musical instruments and should be used for their
intended purpose only. Comply with these instructions to avoid
personal injury or damages. [Yamaha Recorder Owner's Manual]
dt king
Eric Berge wrote:
>
> Folk music is easily definable; I've done so myself at least three times on
> this thread, and since no-one has yet seen fit to argue with the definitions
> I've offered, I'm pretty much assuming that most people agree with them.
>
> Once again:
>
>
>
> (here referring to the transmission of same by one amateur to another) are
> also arguably "folk" music.
>
>
> By these standards, none of the current crop of singer/songwriters of acoustic
> pop music (eg, Ani DiFranco and Jewel) are folk artists.
>
I have to wonder if mass-media has blurred the distinctions for folk
music. When Cecil Sharp went out and collected English folk tunes, he
had no question what was folk music -- it was music out there that was
sung and played by folks. Seems like then it was everything that wasn't
performed by or for the gentry. However, the music we listen to now
isn't delimited by class lines. You may find a digitally remastered
Sonny Terry Whoopin' in a Manhattan penthouse or an Appalachan
candlemaker (who used to be a Manhattan executive) relaxing to an A.M.
broadcast of Turlough O'Carolan planxties.
People don't sew there own pants, slaughter their own hogs or play their
own music nearly as much as 100 years ago. I expect it's theoretically
possible for a popular folk tune to have been played only once in a
studio by a professional performer and never again by any actual folks.
That may be why some people say, "I can't define it, but I know it when
I hear it." Folk music isn't defined by pedigree or form.
For instance, Twinkies are an entirely artificial, mass-produced,
food-like substance. I think I could get away with calling them a
folk-snack despite the fact they have no "traditional" ties to any
historically edible munchy. Nobody's mother ever baked a twinky. You
know for a fact, though, that Jerry Garcia packed a few of those away in
his lifetime.
So, I have to say, Jewel is a Twinky.
bswe...@hamilton.edu
In article <5pfdbu$d...@camel12.mindspring.com>,
rlh...@mindspring.com wrote:
> I'll admit to learning it from Judy Collins's "Whales and
> Nightingales" LP. I recall being so anxious as to when the new Judy
> album was going to come out, I actually called Elektra and asked them
> and they told me the cuts that would be on it and the release date.
> Have I been a Judy fan for long enough? <grin>
>
> Here is a mini "Amazing Grace" discography for Judy Collins. It has
> been a very important part of Judy's life and it was not expected to
> chart, but did. "Whales and Nighingales" is a wonderful LP...I just
> listened to it last night.
Thanks for the details.
> ===========
> There is a book by Judy called "Amazing Grace" that is out of print
> and I've not been able to find it. I'd LOVE a copy!!!
>
I thought I would try to get this on Interlibrary Loan. I could not find a
book by Judy with this title in a database that includes everything that
Library of Congress has cataloged since the late 60's and lots of other
stuff. Are you sure you have the title correct?
> ===========
> There is a WONDERFUL video that contains a Judy Collins segment
> called:
>
> "Amazing Grace" (History) From PBS Special with Bill Moyers 1994
>
Despite my lack of Boob-tube, it seems I am going to have to locate a
copy and check this out.
About Joan Baez:
> "What happened was that the audience started to sing with me, and they
> sounded so beautiful. Then something clicked, 'This is why I'm here."
> When people sing like this and we become a community, I'm doing what I
> was meant to do best. It was a turning point for me, a reminder that
> there were other things to remember besides my commercial career. It
> was proof that there was a greater meaning for people and myself about
> what I do on stage. The commercial considerations are there, of
> course, but it was a great joy because they sang so beautifully."
>
> "I went to pieces. I don't know how I got through it. One can't cry
> and sing at the same time. It was a bit of an ethereal experience on
> stage."
>
This is a wonderful story.
I was in a hurry when I first posted my question. The Prairie Home
Companion fund raiser where Amazing Grace first struck me a folk was a
somewhat similar experience. For a encore to the whole program of several
wonderful singers Helen Schneyer lined Amazing Grace while all of
Orchestra Hall in Minneapolis joined in. I don't know if I'd ever felt it
quite so strongly as then. Several of the people I was with were either
agnostic to openly antagonistic toward religion, yet they joined in and
seemed to feel it as much as if it did express their faith. I have since
gotten used to that but at the time it struck me as something strange.
Thanks also to everyone else for their stories. I made the mistake of
going away to sing for 3 days right after posing my question so I'm tardy
about following up.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
George Hawes
wat...@selway.umt.edu (Charles Watkins) wrote:
<much snipped>
> And which songs to you think are a total rip off of Frente? "Memoirs of a
>Housewife", Rocker Girl", "Amen"?
>Three totally unique songs
There's no such thing! As you (more or less) said earlier in
your post! ;-)
Regards
G.
bswe...@hamilton.edu
In article <33C198...@weblabs.com>,
dtk...@weblabs.com wrote:
> You just went to the wrong churches, I think. I grew up in Utah,
> attending the First Southern Baptist Church. The hymn was a weekly
> favorite. Half the services ended with the congregation singing the
> prime-numbered verses while the pastor did his impassioned plea for
> folks to "dedicate their lives to God."
>
I'm the one who asked in the first place, so I guess I went to the wrong
church as well. I did note that Baptists put it in their hymnals early.
In my church we sing Old Hundred with the words of the Common Doxology
every Sunday. It's very old, it's in The Sacred Harp, most people learn
it by ear. A case might be made for it being folk, but it's not treated
like a folk song in the same way Amazing Grace is.
I have to assume that many people in that church have little or no
connection with folk music and experience it only as a hymn. More popular
than most, but still a hymn. Having grown up with Amazing Grace, was it
always both a church hymn and a folk song for you. Or was there some
point when you realized it was also being treated as a folk song?
I'm not interested in defining folk. I'm interested in how people have
experienced this particular hymn that has become a general folk song in a
way that few other folk hymns have.
George Hawes
dt king <dtk...@weblabs.com> wrote:
>Eric Berge wrote:
>
<folk definitions>
>I have to wonder if mass-media has blurred the distinctions for folk
>music. When Cecil Sharp went out and collected English folk tunes, he
>had no question what was folk music -- it was music out there that was
>sung and played by folks. Seems like then it was everything that wasn't
>performed by or for the gentry.
No, Sharp had his own preconceptions of what was Folk Music.
Including that it was a dying voice of RURAL folk. As a result
he missed the entire field of Industrial Folk Song . . .
>That may be why some people say, "I can't define it, but I know it when
>I hear it." Folk music isn't defined by pedigree or form.
No, that may be a 'definition' of 'music I like'; it does not
stand critical examination as a definition of Folk Music -
because it is too inclusive to have any significant meaning.
And there is Folk Music I don't like . . .
>So, I have to say, Jewel is a Twinky.
Since I've no idea who Jewel is or what a Twinky is I'll happily
agree with you 120% on that! ;-)
Cheers!
George
Captain Tripps
Charles Watkins wrote:
> Second, "She sounds like a total cop of a band called Frente." Odds are,
> which songs to you think are a total rip off of Frente? "Memoirs of a
> completely different styles. Does Frente sound like any of these?
Alright now just hold on one damn minute! Where did you hear these
songs? I am a HUGE jewel fan, folk or pop, I could care less. How can I
get them, order them, procure sexual favors for them?
I read that Jewel has an archive of over 140 songs(something like that)
and I also saw her perform some really beautiful songs on VH1 that
weren't on the album.
Eric Berge
In Article<33C54A...@froots.off.demon.co.uk>, <fro...@froots.off.demon.co.uk> writes:
> From: Ian Anderson <fro...@froots.off.demon.co.uk>
> So. Not pop music. Dead boring and appeals to old people. Must
> be folk music ;-)
Or Gregorian Chant...
Eric Berge
edb...@ibm.net
dt king
bswe...@hamilton.edu wrote:
>
> In article <33C198...@weblabs.com>,
> dtk...@weblabs.com wrote:
> > You just went to the wrong churches, I think. I grew up in Utah,
> > attending the First Southern Baptist Church. The hymn was a weekly
> > favorite. Half the services ended with the congregation singing the
> > prime-numbered verses while the pastor did his impassioned plea for
> > folks to "dedicate their lives to God."
> >
>
> connection with folk music and experience it only as a hymn. More popular
> than most, but still a hymn. Having grown up with Amazing Grace, was it
> always both a church hymn and a folk song for you. Or was there some
> point when you realized it was also being treated as a folk song?
>
I haven't at any point attempted to verify any particular tune I play is
folk before I allow it in my tune-book. Amazing Grace is one of my
favorites. I haven't been a Christian for at least ten years, though,
so it gets my vote for folk. I'm also fond of some Disney movie tunes
-- can they be folk music too? The bulk of my interest is Celtic folk,
especially Turlough O'Carolan. However, I understand he played
primarily for wealthy patrons, he showed major classical influence and
we now have his music from transcriptions from his family, so perhaps
O'Carolan isn't actually folk.
Ian Anderson
I think I just found the definitive answer on this.
My 9 year old daughter showed me one of her pop music magazines today.
It has a review of Jewel, the essence of which is "avoid this at
all costs, it's dead boring, the sort of thing your mum would like"
So. Not pop music. Dead boring and appeals to old people. Must
be folk music ;-)
Well, it's as good as many other definitions in this thread!
Charles Watkins
In article <5pvq6q$f...@shiny.i-cubed.co.uk>,
George Hawes <George...@i-cubed.co.uk> wrote:
>wat...@selway.umt.edu (Charles Watkins) wrote:
>
><much snipped>
>
>>Housewife", Rocker Girl", "Amen"?
>
>>Three totally unique songs
>
>your post! ;-)
>
"unique" is with "totally" or "very" is absurd.
anyse
I like the version on the Folkways recording of "Mountain Music of
Kentucky"
Now, THAT is folk!!!!
James Calvert Robinson
have you heard Ani Difranco's rendition of Amazing Grace on her latest live
album? it is something very different - I like it! I would call it "folk"
George Hawes
anyse <an...@ns.net> wrote:
>I like the version on the Folkways recording of "Mountain Music of
>Kentucky"
>Now, THAT is folk!!!!
And this was an on-topic post. Getting to be an endangered
specis in these parts!
G.