Outrageous Fortune
Skipper
It contains some heartbreaking stories from the evicted retirees. It's a
sorry state when crooks who own expensive property in the US are allowed
to evict retirees without notice and politicians do nothing but pad
their own pockets, trash public property, and pardon fellow crooks.
Harry must be very proud of his Clinton team. Let's hope the Bush folks
can correct some of the outrageous abuse of power and help the residents
of Punta Banda.
http://www.mexicoevictions.com/
--
Skipper
Gould 0738
political rhetoric just what the facts of the situation are? The web site would
take hours to go through.
Looks like the area is in Mexico, so its a little hard to blame it on Clinton,
IMO.
Perhaps Bush will invade Mexico and forcibly overturn the decision of the
Supreme Court of a sovereign nation?
And what does this have to do with recretional boating?
Skipper wrote:
________
Chuck Gould
Float and let float.
Skipper
> Could you summarize, briefly, and without political rhetoric just what the
> facts of the situation are? The web site would take hours to go through.
The site does not take long at all to read. These folks are victims that
have been ignored by their government (a government too busy taking
graft and issuing pardons). They're asking fellow citizens to read about
the situation and tell others about the site. Is that too much to ask?
> Looks like the area is in Mexico, so its a little hard to blame it on
> Clinton, IMO.
Oh, really! He could have saved the situation from the bully pulpit.
> Perhaps Bush will invade Mexico and forcibly overturn the decision of the
> Supreme Court of a sovereign nation?
> And what does this have to do with recretional boating?
BTW, have you seen the movie, 'All The Pretty Horses'?
--
Skipper
Harry Krause
The situation you are describing is well known to anyone who bothers to get
the facts. Twenty five or thirty years ago, I passed on an opportunity to
obtain a piece of beachfront property in Cancun because I didn't like the
vagaries of the long term lease that was involved.
--
Harry Krause
------------
This campaign not only hears the voices of the entrepreneurs and the farmers
and the entrepreneurs, we hear the voices of those struggling to get head— GW
Bush
Bill McKee
gambled.' Or something like that. Bad (or good depending on viewpoint)
thing about MX is foreigners can not own land, so they get long term leases.
Well and good, but you better research if the leasing party has clear title.
It's a foreign country. Not the US gov't job to cover their screwup's. I
could see a leftist liberal with this attitude of the government is to take
of us, but I do not accept that either. Besides, they did not donate enough
dinero to get consideration for a pardon or what ever they want. (oop's, me
bad).
Bill
"Skipper" <Ski...@kscable.com> wrote in message
news:3A71E884...@kscable.com...
Skipper
>> The site does not take long at all to read. These folks are victims that
>> have been ignored by their government (a government too busy taking
>> graft and issuing pardons). They're asking fellow citizens to read about
>> the situation and tell others about the site. Is that too much to ask?
> Anyone who is an idiot has it coming to them when they get burned like
> this.
> Karl Denninger Kids Rights Activist
"Kids rights activist", huh? Could it be that Harry was dead solid
perfect in his assessment of you concern for others? Is your comment
applicable to the alzheimers patient who was evicted?
--
Skipper
Harry Krause
Karl's site, the last time I read through it, had very little to do with
"kids' rights," and very much to do with methods and techniques and "legal
reform" that men might invoke in order to avoid reasonable and fair child and
spousal support in case of the breakup of a marriage. Much of it was in
carefully couched language, of course, but the end result was to help the
errant male keep more of what he thought was his, and to provide, at best,
minimal payments to children and former partners. It also was depth into
methodology aimed at "controlling" former spouses and the kinds of
relationships that develop after a split.
I would call it an anti-woman, anti-child website.
Actually, Skip, you hit the nail right on the head. I think Karl has very
little concern for anyone other than himself and anything other than his
wallet. His posts read that way to me. Not much compassion there, so far as I
can tell.
Jim Donohue
holding you idiots at bay. I really try not to play the silly politics but
what on God's earth has liberalism got to do with a bunch of americans
getting screwed by a Mexican real estate operator? Are you really such a
jackass that you believe that all things bad are liberal and all things good
conservative? Yea gods get a little objecetive will you?
It really hurts to see an engineer behave as a biased idiot. Referring of
course to your thoughts and not you personally of course.
Jim
"Bill McKee" <bmc...@nospamix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:94suc1$ct7$1...@tilde.csc.ti.com...
Gould 0738
>It's a foreign country. Not the US gov't job to cover their screwup's. I
>could see a leftist liberal with this attitude of the government is to take
>of us, but I do not accept that either.
Don't know about the leftist liberal attitude, it seems that Skipper is the one
party crying for US Govt. intervention here and he is not a liberal. At all
Bill McKee
Bill
"Jim Donohue" <jim_d...@computer.org> wrote in message
news:t74a5a...@corp.supernews.com...
Bill McKee
crying on this subject sounds like a lot of the Local Silicon Valley
Liberals, that want no one held up to personal responsibility. Everybody is
a victim. I was probably bad for bringing up the L.L. notation. But where
is the personal responsibility? They knew there were ownership questions.
It is a foreign country. Just like a person of my acquaintance who was put
in a European jail and said it was not fair. He knew that drugs were not
allowed in the country and the police were not as friendly as the USA. He
was a victim, at least in his sisters mind. I am very liberal in a lot of
ways. But I am an ultra fiscal conservative. As to personal lifestyles, I
may not approve of some, but I keep my mouth shut and will support their
right to live the life they choose. As long as society does not have to pay
for it, and it hurts no children.
Bill
"Gould 0738" <goul...@aol.comspamkill> wrote in message
news:20010126213701...@ng-fn1.aol.com...
Jack Redington
Karl Denninger wrote:
>
> In article <3A720122...@kscable.com>,
> Look Skip.
>
> First, if you're buying REAL ESTATE you should engage an ATTORNEY who is
> skilled in this area (unless you are yourself) to explain the issues - and
> risks - involved with that particular transaction. Just like you should if
> you're buying ANYTHING that has complicated issues of this kind associated
> with it.
>
> Second, foreign nationals are ALWAYS at a disadvantage. Period. If you
> don't like this then for God's sake expat yourself and get citizenship
> wherever you want. The simple fact is that non-US citizens are not entitled
> to the protections that citizens are even in this country. This is doubly
> so in other nations.
>
> Third, it is NOT our job as a nation to enforce OUR laws against OTHER
> nations. If you think it is, think again, because the potential
> consequences of our doing so is that THOSE nations think they can enforce
> their laws against US! That could be SEVERELY UGLY for you and I.
>
> Do I feel sorry for these people? Well, yeah, after a fashion. But does
> that mean that we should unlimber weapons and go in there to blow people to
> kingdom come because - fundamentally - they made a mistake? NO.
>
> This kind of thing happens in the US all the time Skip. If you build a
> building on top of a piece of land to which you do not have the title,
> because its leased, and that lease can be revoked under certain
> circumstances, you can lose your building (house) in this country too.
>
> --
> --
> Karl Denninger (ka...@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
> http://www.denninger.net Cost-effective Consulting Solutions
> http://childrens-justice.org SIGN THE UPREPA PETITION AT THIS SITE TODAY!
It was happening in SC a couple of years ago. < a no title issue> I lost
track of the issue when I moved. But the Power Co. had built several
lakes that they were force to purchase the around because that was not
really desirable when the lakes were built for power generation. They
gave people leases at very low cost that were transferable, but they
retained the right to revoke them at any time they wished. Well people
started transferring these leases like they were titles And some of the
original "renters" and newbee's alike have built homes on this property.
The state decided allow the Power folks to get out of the land business
(Since they had ordered the land be purchased in the first place) and
guess what.
Now the power company wants fair market value for the property they own
and that includes any improvements the the folks who leased the property
put there. I don't know how it turned out but what a mess. Folks who put
there retirement savings into houses so they can go to a lake house have
nothing but the option to buy it at fair market value. Or should the
Power company be lose what are it's legal assets?
It's a lose lose situation however you look at it. But they folks who
built these homes should have known that they did not own the land under
them.
Capt Jack R..
Waterlou4
grandparents bought land along the water in Baltimore County and built "summer
cottages." Over the years, these places were improved - with electricity,
plumbing, and docks - into regular year-round residences.
Last year along comes the county with its power of eminent domain and decides
to take the land and give it to developers for marinas and malls.
Citizens got the matter on the November ballot as a referendum question, where
it received the boot in the ass it so richly deserved.
Harry Krause
>
> In article <20010127002203...@ng-fw1.aol.com>,
>
> But either way, you are at least compensated. If the government pulls that
> they have to pay you off - at current market value.
>
> If you truly made all kinds of improvements (and they were real
> improvements) you may lose the land and house, but you now have a nice wad
> of money with which to buy another one.
Sigh...yet another "Karl Absurdity." There are hundreds, if not thousands, of
cases where a governmental entity invoked eminent domain and imposed a "fair
market value" that had very little to do with fair market value.
I don't know what your area of expertise is, Karl. You issue one pronouncement
after another, and virtually all of them are so rigid as to be useless.
--
Harry Krause
-
Skipper
> Bill McKee wrote:
>> It's a foreign country. Not the US gov't job to cover their screwup's. I
>> could see a leftist liberal with this attitude of the government is to
>> take of us, but I do not accept that either.
> Don't know about the leftist liberal attitude, it seems that Skipper is the
> one party crying for US Govt. intervention here and he is not a liberal. At
> all
Suppose it depends on what we are looking for in our government. If it's
graft, greed, privilege, perks, granting pardons to your friends and
relatives, and personal power trips, then I suppose you are quite
pleased with the administration of the last eight years. On the other
hand, if you expect our government to protect and to serve, and take
action when its citizens are victimized by the trespasses of
unscrupulous foreign forces...
The US flag droops a bit lower today and we cannot cruise to foreign
lands with as much pride *because* of the Clinton legacy. Besides, if
the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo and the Gadsden Purchase had not been
pooched by similar crooked and incompetent bureaucrats, the land in
question *and* a US bluewater port on the Sea of Cortez would deem this
question mute.
--
Skipper
Harry Krause
>
> Gould 0738 wrote:
>
> > Bill McKee wrote:
>
> >> It's a foreign country. Not the US gov't job to cover their screwup's. I
> >> could see a leftist liberal with this attitude of the government is to
> >> take of us, but I do not accept that either.
>
> > Don't know about the leftist liberal attitude, it seems that Skipper is the
> > one party crying for US Govt. intervention here and he is not a liberal. At
> > all
>
> Suppose it depends on what we are looking for in our government. If it's
> graft, greed, privilege, perks, granting pardons to your friends and
> relatives, and personal power trips, then I suppose you are quite
> pleased with the administration of the last eight years.
Or the previous four years. Or the eight years previous to that.
On the other
> hand, if you expect our government to protect and to serve, and take
> action when its citizens are victimized by the trespasses of
> unscrupulous foreign forces...
Uh...Mexico is a sovereign nation. There's no secret about the "rules" for the
property involved.
>
> The US flag droops a bit lower today and we cannot cruise to foreign
> lands with as much pride *because* of the Clinton legacy.
Bullship.
--
Harry Krause
------------
Our priorities is our faith.- GW Bush
Skipper
> Yep.
> But either way, you are at least compensated. If the government pulls that
> they have to pay you off - at current market value.
> If you truly made all kinds of improvements (and they were real
> improvements) you may lose the land and house, but you now have a nice wad
> of money with which to buy another one.
Condemned property is rarely compensated for at its true worth prior to
the condemnation.
--
Skipper
Skipper
> Uh...Mexico is a sovereign nation. There's no secret about the "rules" for
> the property involved.
So is Iraq. So what?
--
Skipper
Harry Krause
>
> In article <3A72E880...@kscable.com>,
> value to me, which I tried to shove down someone's throat (and failed)
>
That silly millimeter?
--
Harry Krause
------------
I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family. George W. Bush
Harry Krause
Give it up. The "rules" that restrict actual ownership of certain Mexican real
estate are well-known and long-established. As noted previously, they were the
reason why I did not get in on a real estate deal in Cancun 25 or 30 years
ago.
--
Harry Krause
------------
The woman who knew that I had dyslexia-I never interviewed her. -GW Bush
Skipper
>> Condemned property is rarely compensated for at its true worth prior to
>> the condemnation.
> "True worth" = What I think it should be worth, including its sentimental
> value to me, which I tried to shove down someone's throat (and failed)
Obviously, *you* have not been through the process.
--
Skipper
Skipper
> Give it up. The "rules" that restrict actual ownership of certain Mexican
> real estate are well-known and long-established. As noted previously, they
> were the reason why I did not get in on a real estate deal in Cancun 25 or
> 30 years ago.
And you seem to be looking at those "rules" from a US perspective. Sorry
your timeshare deal didn't pan out.
--
Skipper
Harry Krause
It wasn't a timeshare.
Actually, I'm glad I didn't take the offer. I don't like the way Cancun turned
out.
Now, if you drive south of Cancun towards Tulum, there is plenty of
non-touristy, uncrowded real estate...
--
Harry Krause
------------
I knew it might put him in an awkward position that we had a discussion before
finality has finally happened in this presidential race. -GW Bush
Skipper
>> And you seem to be looking at those "rules" from a US perspective. Sorry
>> your timeshare deal didn't pan out.
> It wasn't a timeshare.
Was it a fideicomiso deal?
--
Skipper
Harry Krause
What is was was a two bedroom, two bath "co-op" on a 99-year lease,
transferable.
The place was built. When I revisted Cancun about 10 years ago, the
development was there...and in decent shape.
--
Harry Krause
------------
If the East Timorians decide to revolt, I'm sure I'll have a statement. -GW
Bush
del cecchi
"Waterlou4" <wate...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010127002203...@ng-fw1.aol.com...
> Building on leased land is dumb. But consider the folks whose parents and
> grandparents bought land along the water in Baltimore County and built
"summer
> cottages." Over the years, these places were improved - with
electricity,
> plumbing, and docks - into regular year-round residences.
>
> Last year along comes the county with its power of eminent domain and
decides
> to take the land and give it to developers for marinas and malls.
>
for fair market value (or would have) didn't they? How misleading your
language is.
> Citizens got the matter on the November ballot as a referendum question,
where
> it received the boot in the ass it so richly deserved.
>
Del cecchi
Harry Krause
>
> "Waterlou4" <wate...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20010127002203...@ng-fw1.aol.com...
> > Building on leased land is dumb. But consider the folks whose parents and
> > grandparents bought land along the water in Baltimore County and built
> "summer
> > cottages." Over the years, these places were improved - with
> electricity,
> > plumbing, and docks - into regular year-round residences.
> >
> > Last year along comes the county with its power of eminent domain and
> decides
> > to take the land and give it to developers for marinas and malls.
> >
> Now you know better than that. They didn't "take" anything, they bought it
> for fair market value (or would have) didn't they? How misleading your
> language is.
Well, she *is* a lawyer (or so she claims) with, of course, a lawyer's
understanding of how government works.
--
Harry Krause
------------
Q: Does posting the Ten Commandments in schools invalidate the religious
expression of children who are not in the Judeo-Christian heritage?
A: "Thou shalt not kill" is pretty universal. Districts ought to be allowed to
post the Ten Commandments, no matter what a person’s religion is.
Waterlou4
improvements) you may lose the land and house, but you now have a nice wad
It would take more than a nice wad of money to buy comparable waterfront
property around here, if it could be found at all.
Waterlou4
to take the land and give it to developers for marinas and malls.<
>>Now you know better than that. They didn't "take" anything, they bought it
for fair market value (or would have) didn't they? How misleading your
language is.<< -- Del Cecchi
I can't imagine what amount of money these people would consider "fair" in
return for property that's been in families for several generations, and where
owners spent childhood summers learning about boats.
Considering the price and limited availability of comparable waterfront
property around here, "fair market value" is illusory.
Waterlou4
P.S. then why is it called "taking by emminent domain"?
del cecchi
Isn't why we have courts and lawyers? :-) And a constitution?
At least that is how it works in Minnesota. Now tearing up the street in
front of your business for a year so you go bankrupt is ok. But they didn't
take anything.
del cecchi
>
Waterlou4
Cecchi
Yes, and if you recall my original post, you will know that Baltimore County
citizens got the matter put on the November ballot as a referendum question,
and it was defeated. Sort of like what we just did to the Giants.
Gould 0738
>I can't imagine what amount of money these people would consider "fair" in
>return for property that's been in families for several generations, and
>where
>owners spent childhood summers learning about boats.
>
>Considering the price and limited availability of comparable waterfront
>property around here, "fair market value" is illusory.
>
An obvious tactic would present itself.
Why don't the owners of such property, if it is so exceptionally valuable and
irreplacable, march on the Assessor's Office when the property tax statements
are mailed out and demand that the official valuations of their properties be
*raised* to an amount sufficient to reflect the true value?
'Course that's not gonna happen anytime soon.
The following scenario must have taken place in the US a few hundred thousand
times by now:
1999: Homer Homeowner protests his tax assesment. "What do you mean this old
dump is worth $750,000? That's completely outrageous! I'd be lucky to get half
of that from a buyer. Why, houses all up and down my street, in much better
shape than mine, have been selling for as little as $500,000! I demand a
revaluation!" ( The appeals board concedes Homer's point and changes his
official appraisal to $500k.)
2000: A new high school must be built for the burgeoning population of
Homerville. Homer Homeowner's house is right smack in the middle of the land
designated for the
faculty parking lot. Homer assaults the civic leadership again: "What do you
mean, you'll pay $550,000 for my house?
That's completely outrageous! The place is in mint condition! It's going to
cost me at least $950,000 to buy anything remotely comparable anywhere else in
town........."
:-)
Jim Donohue
own tax value. But anybody who wants to can buy it for 120% of the listed
value. Be amazing where housing values would actually end up.
While interesting this is pretty far off topic. \
Jim
"Gould 0738" <goul...@aol.comspamkill> wrote in message
news:20010128232709...@ng-fb1.aol.com...
Waterlou4
Well, it started with waterfront homes, and developers who wanted to build
marinas and malls where they are. At least there was a little boating-related
content in the first post.
RGrew176
getting it. Eminent domain is one way. But here in Michigan the local governing
body tried a different approach to wrest prime waterfront property from it's
owners. Seems they want to use all the PRIME property and build hotels and
such. An acquaintance of mine was asked to sell their property. They along with
most of the other homeowners in the area refused. A few did sell and hotels
have gone up on their former properties.
Well, this acquaintance did refuse. For the next 8 years their property
valuations went up dramaticly and so did property taxes. They appealed each
year to no avail. Well, the acquaintance through the freedom of information act
managed to get the assessments from all the hotels on the bay. Amazingly over
those 8 years the assessments of the hotel properties went up only 25% of the
value assessed to the homeowners.
They took the local governing body to court. Guess what they won. The
assessments were reduced by 75% to reflect those of the hotels. Because the
local governing bodies did not have the funds to refund the monies to the
homeowners they accepted a settlement whereby they did not have to pay any
property taxes for the next 10 years or until the amount of overpayment was
equaled, whichever is longer.
Of course I am sure the local governing body will make sure the time takes no
longer than the 10 year period. It is nice to see homeowners win one once in
awhile.
Getting back to the original focus of this thread I once many years ago had a
chance to buy a nice waterfront house on leased utility land and decided
against it just because I could never own the land and the utility could come
in at any time and evict those that own there. A very shaky proposition at the
very least.
76 days to go..
Gould 0738
What's even funnier is when a private development company wants a property and
the owner holds out. Many decades ago, (I was a kid), one of the first shopping
centers in the US was built in Seattle. On the NE corner of the property was a
house
that belonged to a hold-out-for-an-extortionist-price owner.
The shopping center company bought all the property except this guy's house and
proceeded. The parking lot needed to be leveled, and the specs called for a 10
foot graduated cut between the curb and the rear of the hold-out's property
line.
The house sat there for years, with the rear of the lot and the SW side
suspended about 10 feet above the busy parking lot.
When Denny Hill was leveled in Seattle about 100 years ago, there were property
owners at that time that fought condemnation. Our historical museum has photos
of hotels and other buildings sitting on little mounds of elevated land while
work went on all around. The occupants had to climb ladders from the new street
level to the base of the front porch steps.
I feel sorry for the people kicked out in Mexico, but it's hard to avoid saying
"You should have known better." Even the web site says, "Some people build in
flood plains in spite of the risk, we built at Punta
in spite of the risk....." Well, hello. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.
When you know you're taking a risk, there shouldn't be all of the outraged
surprise and indignation when the cards come up against you.
Bill McKee
appraiser. The court will weight the conflicting appraisels. The Gov't
also has to pay off all liens, even if they are more than the fair market
value of the property..
Bill
"Harry Krause" <hkr...@capu.net> wrote in message
news:3A72DF79...@capu.net...
Harry Krause
>
> That's true everywhere in the US.
>
> This is a federal constitutional issue, not just a state one.
>
> Harry and others ought to actually READ that document sometime. Of course
> that would require denying their liberal agenda, at least in part, which is
> why it will never happen.
Once again, Karl, you are caught up in your own rigidity. There are numerous
"eminent domain" cases each year in the United States involving any number of
issues, including the ones under discussion here. Most of these these cases
don't have a damned thing to do with "liberal" or "conservative" politics.
I've read the US Constitution many times, Karl, and I've read many books and
documents of commentary on it. The words it contains are not chiseled into
stone. They have been interpreted and reinterpreted many times and will
continue to be interpreted in the future.
Life and its vagaries are not as simple, as black or white or as cut and dried
as they appear to be in your world, Karl. That is the fallacy inherent in most
of your posts here. Frankly, you remind me of a character from Abbot's
Flatland, unable to perceive the multi-dimensionality of your surroundings.
--
Harry Krause
------------
There needs to be debates, like we're going through. There needs to be
town-hall meetings. There needs to be travel. This is a huge country. -GW Bush
Skipper
> I feel sorry for the people kicked out in Mexico, but it's hard to avoid
> saying "You should have known better." Even the web site says, "Some people
> build in flood plains in spite of the risk, we built at Punta in spite of
> the risk....." Well, hello. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. When you
> know you're taking a risk, there shouldn't be all of the outraged surprise
> and indignation when the cards come up against you.
George W. Bush will make his first foreign trip as U.S. President to
Mexico on February 16 to meet Mexican President Vicente Fox. If you
share a concern for protecting the property rights of US and Canadian
retirees living in Mexico, this might be a good time to express those
concerns with an email to the President.
In life, you find out who the truly compassionate are when the strokes
get short. Liberals are caring and compassionate? Yea, right!!!
The article that follows is a great story from the San Diego Union
Tribune about the pitfalls of trying to invest in Baja property...
By Sandra Dibble
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER
January 16, 2001
PUNTA BANDA, Mexico -- More than two months after some 200 Americans
lost their homes on this picturesque sand spit, the fallout continues to
raise fears among those who have invested in real estate throughout
Mexico. Though Punta Banda is an extreme and rare situation, development
pressures and increasing land values in Mexico have validated some of
those fears. Baja California, with its highly prized coastline, has been
especially embattled.
"It's not that it's anything new," said Silvia Perez Thompson, a San
Diego-based consultant on Mexican real estate. "It was always the same
problem, but it was just sleeping there."
The media have trumpeted losses by Americans, but Mexicans are equally
vulnerable. Development in one large section of eastern Tijuana has been
paralyzed for years because of a complicated land dispute. Thousands of
families live there without basic services because government agencies
are barred from supplying electricity and water to disputed areas.
American investors face special challenges, however. Mexican law bars
foreigners from outright ownership of residential property within 62
miles of the border or 31 miles of the coast. Americans who invest in
these areas typically have leased the land or acquired a document known
as a fideicomiso, or land trust, that gives them ownership rights
through a Mexican bank.
Punta Banda's ghostly streets, vacant houses and shuttered hotel bear
testimony to dreams gone sour. Since October, when hundreds of police
enforced a court order restoring the property to the legally recognized
owners, a few dozen Americans have negotiated to stay. But most of the
rest are seeking compensation through lawsuits and a complaint filed
under the North American Free Trade Agreement.
Jesús Arteaga, a Tijuana real estate attorney, says people must be
cautious when investing in an area where some plots can have two or
three titles. "All this is coming to light as the properties are now
being developed," Arteaga said. "Someone starts to build, and suddenly a
person remembers, 'Hey, wait, my grandfather had title.' Mexicans have
suffered more than Americans."
That's not much solace to Claus and Dolores Sellier, who in 1989 spotted
what looked like the perfect place for a vacation home: a quiet,
affordable resort community that hugged a crescent-shaped beach less
than a two hours' drive from the U.S. border. "It looked like a very
good investment," Dolores Sellier said. Since their eviction from Punta
Banda in October, the Selliers have been back home in Escondido, trying
to get restitution for their $150,000 investment, struggling to
reconcile their love of Mexico with their outrage over what happened to
them there.
'No hall of records' - The land situation on the Baja California
peninsula drew Nelson Monzalvo's attention when he served as legal
director of Mexico's Tourism Secretariat from 1990 to 1996. "I saw that
Baja California was a high-risk area, because the assigning of land was
not carried out with precision," Monzalvo said. "There was never a
reliable public property registry."
Far from Mexico's mainland, the peninsula for years was a sparsely
settled backwater with extensive stretches of undeveloped land. Baja
California didn't become a state until 1952. Baja California Sur, whose
southern end includes the booming Los Cabos resort, was granted
statehood in 1971. In the early years, informal arrangements often took
the place of legally binding agreements common in older parts of Mexico.
And land-surveying methods were imprecise, so unoccupied tracts of land
remained vaguely defined for decades. "There's no hall of records here
where you can go pull the file and read back all the way to when it was
Indian property," said Raul Magaña, a licensed real estate broker from
San Pedro, Calif., who owns a plot in Rosarito Beach.
Real estate ownership is complicated by the fact that more than half of
Baja California's land is in the hands of land collectives known as
ejidos. Created under Mexico's 1917 constitution, ejidos were seen as a
means of distributing property among landless peasants. In Baja
California, where much of the land can't be farmed, ejidos were also
used to help populate remote areas. For years, ejido land could neither
be bought nor sold. But since 1992, Mexican law has allowed ejidos to
privatize and sell their land. When investing in ejido land, "The red
flag should go up right away, even today," said Jorge Vargas, a law
professor at the University of San Diego. "Ejido members can enter into
private arrangements, but the problem is to do things in the right way."
But finding the "right way" can be difficult even for someone as savvy
as Magaña, the California realty man. Because he is a Mexican citizen,
Magaña was able to buy land in Rosarito Beach 21 years ago from a
private owner. He protected himself by researching the title and
querying municipal and federal government offices about the land. "They
told us the property was free and clear," he said. But in 1991, the
Ejido Mazatlan, created in 1938, obtained a new government-approved map
that showed its boundaries included Magaña's plot and dozens of other
developed properties on a 247-acre area. "We proved beyond a doubt that
we were right and the ejido was wrong," Magaña said. But now he is
preparing to pay the collective to drop its legal actions against him.
"It's going to cost me more for attorneys than it would to settle."
Rush for Title Insurance - Punta Banda has been a boon for title
insurance companies. Once unheard of in Mexico, the insurance has been
offered in recent years by three major U.S.-based firms and, most
recently, by a Mexican company. Mitch Creekmore, of Houston-based
Stewart Title, says attitudes toward title insurance have changed
dramatically since his company started working in Mexico in 1994. "When
we first started, we were told, 'We do not need title insurance. We do
not have title problems in Mexico.' Now everybody is recognizing the
need." Since Punta Banda, "our phone has been ringing off the hook,"
said Cabo San Lucas-based Jorge Rodrguez, who represents Fidelity
National Title Insurance.
Title insurance in Baja California typically runs about $6 or $7 per
$1,000, about twice what it is in California. But title insurance wasn't
available at any price to the Americans who invested in Punta Banda.
None of the companies will insure ejido property unless it has been
properly privatized. Had he been approached by any of the Punta Banda
homeowners, "I would have told them flatly that I could not help them,"
said Jose Palli, president of Miami-based World Wide Title.
Most people agree that government agencies exacerbated the problem at
Punta Banda. In 1987, the Agrarian Reform Ministry approved a map
showing that the boundaries of the Ejido Coronel Esteban Cantú included
the scenic sand spit known as La Lengueta Arenosa. But in 1995, the
Supreme Court upheld lower court decisions saying the land didn't belong
to the ejido. And last year, the court ordered the property returned to
a group of private owners whose titles date back to the 1950s. The
Agrarian Reform Ministry has since admitted it made a "mistake."
The victorious land owners at Punta Banda say the Americans who invested
there had ignored many warnings that the land was in dispute, and
invested anyway out of greed or stupidity. Many of the Americans insist
they made the proper checks. Some even received assurances from top
Mexican government officials that their investment was legal and safe.
"It's way too obvious to say, 'You just need to watch out and hire an
attorney,' " said Leigh Zaremba, leader of one American homeowners
group. "When a government tells you what you can do, you tend to believe
the government."
A time of transition Baja California's land problems are surfacing as
Mexico is working to strengthen its institutions and attract foreign
investment. Some say it's no coincidence that the problems have come to
light during a transition in Mexico, with the election of President
Vicente Fox of the National Action Party, which ended 71 years of rule
by the Institutional Revolutionary Party. "We're at this moment of
institutional flux where things that were on the back burner are being
brought to the front," said Lawrence Herzog, a San Diego State
University professor who has studied development in the border region.
Former Tijuana Mayor Héctor Osuna Jaime, now a PANista federal senator
representing Baja California, believes past corruption in the Agrarian
Reform Ministry led to the problems at Punta Banda. He is calling for an
investigation.
But even as problems continue to surface, many insist that it is safer
to invest in Mexican land than in years past. "Depending on the zone,
through litigation, the situation is becoming clearer," said Arteaga,
the Tijuana attorney. "The delivery of justice in Punta Banda was very
painful, but at least now you have legal certainty there. I'd estimate
that 10, 20 years from now most land problems along the coast will be
resolved."
Punta Banda Deals - Since their evictions, about 70 of Punta Banda's
former residents have negotiated with the new landowners to stay on the
property. Many are paying a one-time fee of up to $450 per square meter
(about 1.2 square yards), more than four times the going price for
resort land, Zaremba said.
Zaremba's homeowners' group has filed a criminal complaint against the
Mexican government, and another under the North American Free Trade
Agreement. Other investors have hired attorneys and are deciding whom to
sue. But others can only walk away. "It is an unforgettable sight to see
people evicted from their home, come back days later and realize there
is no hope," said Zaremba. "They have completely lost their dream."
Last month, Dolores and Claus Sellier met with their property's owner, a
group called Nueva Ensenada, and were told they would have to pay
$75,000 to remain on their 300-square-yard lot. For that price, the
owners promised the Selliers land trusts -- something they thought they
had bought when they paid developer Carlos Terán $150,000. The Selliers
said they can't afford it. "We don't trust promises anymore," Dolores
Sellier said. "At this point, all we're asking for is our day in court
and some kind of compensation."
--
Skipper
Skipper
> Yes, and if you recall my original post, you will know that Baltimore
> County citizens got the matter put on the November ballot as a referendum
> question, and it was defeated. Sort of like what we just did to the
> Giants.
We? What position did you play?
--
Skipper
Harry Krause
>
> Gould 0738 wrote:
>
> > I feel sorry for the people kicked out in Mexico, but it's hard to avoid
> > saying "You should have known better." Even the web site says, "Some people
> > build in flood plains in spite of the risk, we built at Punta in spite of
> > the risk....." Well, hello. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. When you
> > know you're taking a risk, there shouldn't be all of the outraged surprise
> > and indignation when the cards come up against you.
>
> George W. Bush will make his first foreign trip as U.S. President to
> Mexico on February 16 to meet Mexican President Vicente Fox. If you
> share a concern for protecting the property rights of US and Canadian
> retirees living in Mexico, this might be a good time to express those
> concerns with an email to the President.
>
> In life, you find out who the truly compassionate are when the strokes
> get short. Liberals are caring and compassionate? Yea, right!!!
The article does nothing more than point out what I knew 25 or 30 years ago,
and what *any* potential Yankee land buyer in Mexico should know *before*
buying. The laws are different in Mexico, and the methods of enforcement or
non-enforcement or mis-enforcement of such things as title to land are a lot
different there than they are here.
Caveat emptor should be the phrase of importance in Mexican land deals. And
the situation is far worse in many developing nations. I know, because my main
project these days involves finding a way to guarantee title in countries
where the concept of land title is unknown.
If you think Dubya Dumb is going to be able to do anything about the situation
in Mexico, you are sadly mistaken. By his own pronouncements, he isn't even
aware Mexico is a "foreign" country and on top of that, Vincente Fox is a
lot...foxier...than Dubya Dumb.
--
Harry Krause
------------
Listen, Al Gore is a very tough opponent. He is the incumbent. He represents
the incumbency. And a challenger is somebody who generally comes from the pack
and wins, if you're going to win. And that's where I'm coming from. -GW Bush
Bill McKee
taxpayers of the area are sponsors.
Bill
"Skipper" <Ski...@kscable.com> wrote in message
news:3A75ED94...@kscable.com...
del cecchi
fair market value. I don't think the constitution says anything about fair.
In fact I get suspicious of anyone talking about fair.
It certainly didn't enter in when they "took" our family's house for a
Highway. They also "took" the house my grandfather built where my aunt
lived. And they didn't offer an extra for sentimental attachment.
del cecchi
"Gould 0738" <goul...@aol.comspamkill> wrote in message
news:20010128232709...@ng-fb1.aol.com...
Gould 0738
>> George W. Bush will make his first foreign trip as U.S. President to
>> Mexico on February 16 to meet Mexican President Vicente Fox. If you
>> share a concern for protecting the property rights of US and Canadian
>> retirees living in Mexico, this might be a good time to express those
>> concerns with an email to the President.
>>
>> In life, you find out who the truly compassionate are when the strokes
>> get short. Liberals are caring and compassionate? Yea, right!!!
>
Liberals respect the sovereignty of other nations. We do not feel that whatever
the US government wants or some special interest group of US citizens wants
should be always be shoved down the throats of other countries, either by
diplomatic or military means.
If I lease you a boat that I don't own, and the rightful owner comes and
repossesses the vessel out from under you, does it make sense for the Governor
of Kansas to
raise a holy stink in Washington about your lost (and not legally existent)
"property rights"? Sort of the same situation as the Messican deal.
Skipper
> Liberals respect the sovereignty of other nations. We do not feel that
> whatever the US government wants or some special interest group of US
> citizens wants should be always be shoved down the throats of other
> countries, either by diplomatic or military means.
Not sure you heard, but Clinton issued an executive order just before
leaving office giving the land your home is on back to the indians. I
was out drinking with one of them last night. We played a little poker.
He lost. Believe we need to discuss a rather unfortunate situation.
--
Skipper
Waterlou4
>>We? What position did you play?<< -- Skipper
Twelfth man, just like everybody else in Baltimore.
Bill McKee
homes of people by taxing them out of them. They based the tax on best use
value. The people were living in the house, were happy there, and could
afford the tax. All of the sudden the tax assessor raises the valuation 500
fold. The people could not pay the taxes. Why should the person be priced
out of the house, that they have owned for 30 years. Proctor and Gamble in
Emeryville was a customer of mine. Between them and the next factory was an
old rundown Victorian. They tax man assessed it at a value of $500k (1963).
There was no way anybody was going to buy this house. The factory on each
side did not need any more land, and no one else was going to pay. The lady
who owned the house beat them, by saying if it is worth this much, write a
check and you can have it. They backed off (with the weight of public
opinion against them). If you now buy somebody's house via eminent domain,
they need to be compensated with enough money to buy an equivalent house in
an equivalent neighborhood. Just because the inflation of the currency by
the gov't spenders does not mean they can rape the taxpayer.
Bill
Gould 0738 <goul...@aol.comspamkill> wrote in message
news:20010128232709...@ng-fb1.aol.com...
Waterlou4
It's going to happen to me. When I bought this condo, Boston Street was two
lanes with potholes and old railroad tracks. The American Can Company factory
across the street was an empty derelict building. The site of the new Safeway
was a concrete pad with weeds growing through the cracks. And Weber's served
good old-fashioned pub grub.
I look out on the Anchorage Marina and the Baltimore Harbor, so Boston Street
didn't bother me.
Now, Boston Street is four lanes with a tree-lined median strip. The Can
Company has a Bibelot, Starbucks, offices, and several rather chi-chi
restaurants. The old Super Fresh (A&P) a few blocks away died from competition
with the new Safeway. Good old Weber's is now a New Orleans faux creole thing
that serves fried catfish about 1/4 inch thick. There's a West Marine and
Blockbuster Video down the block. Property values in my condo building are up
in the clouds. Property taxes are sure to follow.
However, at the same time, a curious thing happened to slip prices at the
marina - they hit an all-time low last year, so I bought two.
The day might come when I'll have to come out of retirement and get a part-time
job just to pay my property taxes, but nothing short of dynamite is going to
get me out of here.
Skipper
You, a twelfth man? And Iron Eyes Cody was a native american.
--
Skipper
Harry Krause
He wasn't? I thought he was a Cherokee, born somewhere in Oklahoma...
As for Waterlogged, well, she's more likely to be the odd man out, rather than
the 12th man.
--
Harry Krause
------------
We want our teachers to be trained so they can meet the obligations, their
obligations as teachers. We want them to know how to teach the science of
reading. In order to make sure there's not this kind of federal -- federal
cuff link. George Tongue-Tied Bush
Skipper
> Skipper wrote:
>> You, a twelfth man? And Iron Eyes Cody was a Native American.
He wasn't? I thought he was a Cherokee, born somewhere in Oklahoma...
That was his story. I believe he was born Espira Dicorti in Gueyden, La
and is of Italian decent and that his son Robert "Tree" Cody was
adopted. Read his bio and make your own decision:
http://members.nbci.com/nativecelebs/minibios/ironeyes.html
> As for Waterlogged, well, she's more likely to be the odd man out, rather
> than the 12th man.
She may eventually offer something of value, but I wouldn't hold my
breath either.
--
Skipper
Harry Krause
>
> Harry Krause wrote:
>
> > Skipper wrote:
>
> >> You, a twelfth man? And Iron Eyes Cody was a Native American.
>
> He wasn't? I thought he was a Cherokee, born somewhere in Oklahoma...
>
> That was his story. I believe he was born Espira Dicorti in Gueyden, La
> and is of Italian decent and that his son Robert "Tree" Cody was
> adopted. Read his bio and make your own decision:
>
> http://members.nbci.com/nativecelebs/minibios/ironeyes.html
Good Grief! Next, you'll be telling me that Jesus wasn't Jewish and that
Atilla wasn't a Hun!
--
Harry Krause
------------
I thought how proud I am to be standing up beside my dad. Never did it occur
to
me that he would become the gist for cartoonists. -GW Bush.
Harry Krause
Er, make that Attila...
--
Harry Krause
------------
Will the highways on the Internet become more few? --Dubya Dubious
Skipper
>> That was his story. I believe he was born Espira Dicorti in Gueyden, La
>> and is of Italian decent and that his son Robert "Tree" Cody was
>> adopted. Read his bio and make your own decision:
>> http://members.nbci.com/nativecelebs/minibios/ironeyes.html
> Good Grief! Next, you'll be telling me that Jesus wasn't Jewish and that
> Atilla wasn't a Hun!
I know. Shocking, ain't it. But just wait 'til the realities of best
value sink in.
--
Skipper
Harry Krause
Best value is a concept realized in the mind of the beholder.
--
Harry Krause
------------
The woman who knew that I had dyslexia-I never interviewed her. -GW Bush
Skipper
>> I know. Shocking, ain't it. But just wait 'til the realities of best
>> value sink in.
> Best value is a concept realized in the mind of the beholder.
Obviously, it's a concept foreign to some.
--
Skipper