Broken Gateways
James Dow Allen
King Edward III claimed in Internet sources. I hope
experts will be willing to comment on these claims.
I have confidence only in the first of these four lines,
and even that confidence is probably misplaced.
(A)
1. Henry Stafford (1455-1483), m. Catherine Wydeville
2. Elizabeth Stafford m. Robert Fitzwalter Radcliffe
3. Humphrey Radcliffe (1509?-1566) m. Isabel Hervey
4. Edward Radcliffe (ca 1532-?) m. NN
5. Eleanor Radcliffe (ca 1548-1628) m. Thomas Whitbread
6. Alice Whitbread (1578-?) m. Gerard Spencer
7. William Spencer (1601-1640) m. Agnes Harris
8. Sarah Spencer (1636-1691) m. John Case (1616-1704), Quaker immigrant
(B)
2. Elizabeth Stafford m. Robert Fitzwalter Radcliffe
3. Henry Radcliffe (1505?-1557) m. Elizabeth Howard
4. Henry Ratcliff (1530?-1593) m. Honor Pound
5. James Ratcliff (1571?-1632) m. NN
6. John Ratcliff (1588?-1650) m. Rachel
7. Richard Ratcliff (1614-1675) m. Alice Rawsthorne
8. Richard Ratcliff (1661-1721) m. NN
9. Mary Ann Ratcliff (1699?-?) m. Abel Wakefield, Jr.
10. Charles Wakefield (1722-1815) m. Elizabeth Moore
(C)
1. Eleanor Beaufort (1425-1501) m. Robert Spencer
2. Margaret/Eleanor Spencer (1468?-1501) m. Thomas Carey
3. William Carey (1492-1528) m. Mary Boleyn
4. Henry Carey (1525-1596) m. Anne Morgan
5. Katherine Carey (?-1602) m. Charles Howard
6. Mary Howard (1553-1624) m. William Scott
7. Henry Scott (1560-1624) m. Martha Whatlock
8. Thomas Scott (1594?-1643) m. Elizabeth Strutt
9. Elizabeth Scott (1623-1691) m. John Loomis (1622-1688), immigrant
(This lineage has almost impossible chronology.)
(D)
1. Sir Francis Bygod (1507-1537) m. Catherine Conyers
...
5. Bygod Eggleston (1587-1674) m. Mary Bridgett
(I know this descent has been discussed and soundly rejected,
but I'm curious: Has anyone ever encountered another
individual with ``Bygod'' as a first name?)
Two other of my immigrant ancestors descend from King
Edward I. In each case the alleged royal descent is via
the Courtenay family, Hugh Courtenay having married
Margaret de Bohun, a granddaughter of King Edward I.
Perhaps s.g.m experts can comment on those `gateways':
(E) John Drake (1600?-1659), descendant of Amye Grenville,
and great-grandfather of Brewster Higley.
(F) Thomas Holcombe (1601-1657), immigrant to Connecticut.
James D. Allen
Dewayne E. Perry
(B) p298
(C) p69
(D) quick check - dont know
cheers - dewayne
Dewayne E. Perry
first three lines all have ancestries gaoing back to edward i. however,
none of the lines you give appear in the 7th edition of weis' ancestral
roots.
cheers - dewayne
"Dewayne E. Perry" wrote:
>
> (A) Plantagenet Ancestry p340
Henry Stafford (1455-1483), m. Catherine Wydeville [PA:340, #6]
goes back to Edward I
> (B) p298
Elizabeth Stafford m. Robert Fitzwalter Radcliffe [PA:298, #6]
goes back to Edward I
>
> (C) p69
Eleanor Beaufort (1425-1501) m. Robert Spencer [PA:69, #5]
goes back to Edward I
Carpenter, Charles
interested in whatever comments are generated. What authority, if any,
links 4,5, and 6?
(I do not share Mr. Allen's confidence about this one. The wife of #7 is in
AR6:246E . . . but without mention of this Radcliffe line. I don't mean to
imply that I think AR is the gospel truth, or that if a line does not appear
there it cannot be valid. I do, however, think that the easy and obvious
lines are there, and that if one wants to advance a new line involving an
immigrant mentioned there, there ought to be something serious to back it
up. If the author of whatever website Mr. Allen got this from didn't see fit
to post any real authority, it's hard to take it seriously . . .)
-----Original Message-----
From: jdall...@yahoo.com [mailto:jdall...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 3:31 AM
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Broken Gateways
(some cutting)
(A)
1. Henry Stafford (1455-1483), m. Catherine Wydeville
2. Elizabeth Stafford m. Robert Fitzwalter Radcliffe
3. Humphrey Radcliffe (1509?-1566) m. Isabel Hervey
4. Edward Radcliffe (ca 1532-?) m. NN
5. Eleanor Radcliffe (ca 1548-1628) m. Thomas Whitbread
6. Alice Whitbread (1578-?) m. Gerard Spencer
7. William Spencer (1601-1640) m. Agnes Harris
8. Sarah Spencer (1636-1691) m. John Case (1616-1704), Quaker immigrant
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Reedpcgen
>6. Alice Whitbread (1578-?) m. Gerard Spencer
The link is SEVERED here. Eleanor Radcliffe, daughter of Edward, was not whife
of Thomas Whitbread--that is wishful thinking.
There is an article in TAG 32:128ff which covers this Whitebread family.
Sir Edward Radcliffe was indeed of "Eluestowe" in 1611, when he sold John
Radwell of Kempston, ploghwright a messuage with yard garden and orchard in
Eluestowe between land of the King and Lambes Lane, and John Whitbread of
Eluestowe, husbandman, made bond to John Radwell assuring him of quiet
enjoyment of the said premessis against Elner Whitbread of Eluestowe, widow,
his mother, but that does not a Radcliffe make, let alone the family of Edward
Radcliffe, Earl of Sussex!
I've theorized there might be a common connection through the Harvey family.
Paul
Ed Mann
From: "James Dow Allen" <jdall...@yahoo.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 3:31 AM
> Four of my immigrant ancestors have descent from
> King Edward III claimed in Internet sources. I hope
> experts will be willing to comment on these claims.
>
> I have confidence only in the first of these four lines,
> and even that confidence is probably misplaced.
>
> (A)
> 1. Henry Stafford (1455-1483), m. Catherine Wydeville
> 2. Elizabeth Stafford m. Robert Fitzwalter Radcliffe
> 3. Humphrey Radcliffe (1509?-1566) m. Isabel Hervey
> 4. Edward Radcliffe (ca 1532-?) m. NN
This Edward Radcliffe, 6th Earl of Sussex, d.s.p. 1641, according to
BxP:451.
> 5. Eleanor Radcliffe (ca 1548-1628) m. Thomas Whitbread
> 6. Alice Whitbread (1578-?) m. Gerard Spencer
> 7. William Spencer (1601-1640) m. Agnes Harris
> 8. Sarah Spencer (1636-1691) m. John Case (1616-1704), Quaker immigrant
>
> (B)
> 2. Elizabeth Stafford m. Robert Fitzwalter Radcliffe
> 3. Henry Radcliffe (1505?-1557) m. Elizabeth Howard
> 4. Henry Ratcliff (1530?-1593) m. Honor Pound
According to BxP:451, Henry's only child was his son Robert, the 5th Earl of
Sussex.
> 5. James Ratcliff (1571?-1632) m. NN
> 6. John Ratcliff (1588?-1650) m. Rachel
> 7. Richard Ratcliff (1614-1675) m. Alice Rawsthorne
> 8. Richard Ratcliff (1661-1721) m. NN
> 9. Mary Ann Ratcliff (1699?-?) m. Abel Wakefield, Jr.
> 10. Charles Wakefield (1722-1815) m. Elizabeth Moore
>
> (C)
> 1. Eleanor Beaufort (1425-1501) m. Robert Spencer
> 2. Margaret/Eleanor Spencer (1468?-1501) m. Thomas Carey
> 3. William Carey (1492-1528) m. Mary Boleyn
Some believe Mary Boleyn's children to have been fathered by Henry VIII.
Check the archives for this discussion.
> 4. Henry Carey (1525-1596) m. Anne Morgan
> 5. Katherine Carey (?-1602) m. Charles Howard
> 6. Mary Howard (1553-1624) m. William Scott
BxP:287 lists no such daughter Mary. Not dispositive by any means, but . .
.
> 7. Henry Scott (1560-1624) m. Martha Whatlock
> 8. Thomas Scott (1594?-1643) m. Elizabeth Strutt
> 9. Elizabeth Scott (1623-1691) m. John Loomis (1622-1688), immigrant
> (This lineage has almost impossible chronology.)
>
> (D)
> 1. Sir Francis Bygod (1507-1537) m. Catherine Conyers
> ...
> 5. Bygod Eggleston (1587-1674) m. Mary Bridgett
> (I know this descent has been discussed and soundly rejected,
> but I'm curious: Has anyone ever encountered another
> individual with ``Bygod'' as a first name?)
>
> Two other of my immigrant ancestors descend from King
> Edward I. In each case the alleged royal descent is via
> the Courtenay family, Hugh Courtenay having married
> Margaret de Bohun, a granddaughter of King Edward I.
> Perhaps s.g.m experts can comment on those `gateways':
>
> (E) John Drake (1600?-1659), descendant of Amye Grenville,
> and great-grandfather of Brewster Higley.
>
> (F) Thomas Holcombe (1601-1657), immigrant to Connecticut.
>
> James D. Allen
>
FWIW; AFAIK; IMHO; YMMV; yadda, yadda, yadda.
Regards, Ed Mann mailto:edl...@earthlink.net
Reference shown is only one of possibly several sources for this
individual. Not all data shown is necessarily from this source.
References:
Ä = Weis, _Ancestral_Roots_, 7th ed.
AACPW = Roberts & Reitwiesner, _American Ancestors and Cousins of
the Princess of Wales_, [page].
AAP = Roberts, _Ancestors_of_American_Presidents_, [page] or
[Pres. # : page].
BP1 = _Burke's_Presidential_Families_, 1st ed. [page].
BPci = _Burke's_Peerage_, 101st ed., [page].
BRF = Weir, _Britain's_Royal_Families_, [page].
BxP = _Burke's_Dormant_&_Extinct_Peerages_, [page].
EC1 = Redlich, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol I, [page].
EC2 = Langston & Buck, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
[page].
EC3 = Buck & Beard, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
[page].
F = Faris, _Plantagenet_Ancestry_, [page:para].
NK1 = Roberts, _Notable_Kin_Volume_One_, [page].
NK2 = Roberts, _Notable_Kin_Volume_Two_, [page].
O = Hardy, Colonial_Families_of_the_Southern_States_of_America, [pg].
PA = Faris, _Plantagenet_Ancestry_, 2d ed. [page:para].
S = Stuart, _Royalty_for_Commoners_, 2d ed. Caveat lector.
W = Weis, _Magna_Charta_Sureties,_1215_, 4th ed.
WFT = Broderbund's World Family Tree CD, [vol]:[num] Caveat lector.
WMC = Wurt's Magna Charta, [vol]:[page] Caveat lector.
Reedpcgen
The abbess of Elstow surrendered her rights in the manor to the Crown in 1539
(valued at 30.17.3 1/2). Henry VIII granted it to Edmund Harvey [member of the
Royal Household, the cellar; Gentleman Pensioner] in 1541. It was his daughter
and heir Isabel Harvey who married Sir Humphrey Radcliffe. Humphrey received a
grant of the property in 1553. He resided at the Abbey house until his death.
The Elstow property was divided at his death, one share going to his son Sir
Edward Radcliffe, who became Earl of Sussex, the other to the daughter Frances.
The heirs of the daughter's part quitclaimed their share to Edward in 1598,
but he sold it to Thomas Hillersdon in 1616.
Edmund Harvey was a son of William Hervey of Ickworth (d. 1538). He had
brothers John Hervey (of Ickworth, Suffolk, m. ca. 1510, d. 1556), Sir Nicholas
(of Ampthill, Bedford, d. 1532), Anthony (of Devon), and Francis (of Witham &
Cressing Temple, MP, d.s.p.).
Eleanor/Ellenor, wife of John Whitbread, was probably married about 1565-70
[her daughter Elizabeth was b. 1571] and died in 1629. She was likely born
about 1540 to 1550. Her father therefore might have been born about 1515-25.
John Hervey of Ickworth, d. 11 July 1556, married Elizabeth Pope. Of his nince
sons, his eldest son (1) William was born ca. 1510 [Stem. Chich. says 1509, but
the marriage settlement is apparently 1510]. John also had two sons (2) & (9)
named John, and sons (3) Nicholas, (4) Clement [twin, with Thomas], (5) Thomas,
(6) Robert, (7) Francis and (8) Christopher. There were also six daughters.
Court of Augmentations Accounts, late in the reign of Henry VIII [after 1542]
list Edmund Hervey as having the farm of the site of the late Priory of Elstow.
Among those listed among "Rents of Assize" in Elstow, which had belonged to the
Monastery of Elstow, are ***THOMAS WHYTEBRED***, who had 4 messuages and 20
acres of land and meadow, and ***THOMAS HERVEY***, who held 1 messuage and 15
acres of land in Elstow. Gerard Harvey also held one messuage and lands in
Elstow (Gerard would seem to be the Gerard who was illegitimate son (but
eventually adopted) of Sir George Hervey; Gerard succeeded his father to large
holdings in several counties and was MP for Bedford).
It is tempting to wish that Ellenor was daughter of this Thomas Hervey, and
that he was a son of Edmund Hervey. The chronology would seem to allow it.
But definite proof is yet to be found.
Thomas Hervey, son of John Hervey of Ickworth, was not mentioned in his
father's will in 1556, but he may have predeceased him, having already received
a share or been provided for so that he could set himself up at Elstow where
his uncle Edmund held the manor. We know a Thomas Hervey held land in Elstow,
and the closest candidate would be this son of John. If he died unexpectedly,
leaving a daughter Ellenor, it would explain what rights Ellenor brought in her
own right to land in Elstow. Ellenor (Hervey?) Whitbread left a nuncupative
will, but it divided silver spoons among her grandchildren, possibly about all
she had of value that would remind them of more gentle relations.
Ellenor (Hervey?) Whitbread gave her eldest son William Whitebread her SILVER
measure, and after his decease it was to remain to his seldest son Henry, and
after his death to his eldest son William, 'FOR TO BE A STANDARD FOR EVER un to
the heire of the Whitebreads.' She gave her godson William Whitebread a silver
spoon. She gave her godson Henery Whitebread a silver spoon, and to his sister
Ellenor Whitebread (also a goddaughter) a silver spoon. She gave her godson
William Spencer a silver spoon. She gave unto Ellenor Whitebread her
goddaughter, daughter of John, a silver spoon. She gave unto John Whitebread
her godson a silver spoon.
This would suggest Ellenor came from a higher origin that the Whitbread family,
and her apparent connection with lands that had belonged to the Harvey family
would explain it.
Paul
Reedpcgen
worked out the correct ancestry, which hails from Settrington, Yorkshire, with
the help of Bob Anderson.
Paul
Reedpcgen
>that he was a son of Edmund Hervey.
That should have read NEPHEW of Edmund.
Paul
Reedpcgen
Clarence Almon Torrey in his article on the Whitbread family (TAG 32).
He had found no evidence of Thomas Whitbread, father of the John Whitbread who
married Ellenor other than the reference in the 1639 conveyance. I just posted
the reference to Thomas which appears in the Court of Augmentation Records in
the 1540s. I would conclude (though Torrey was unable to) that this Thomas was
son of Thomas Whitbread who he has as heading the main line of the Upper
Gravenhurst Whitbread family.
The will of Lawrence, son of Thomas, proved 1552, mentioned his brother John,
father Thomas, and minor sons Henry and John, etc. Torrey had concluded that
when John Whitbread made his will in 1563, the 'cousin Jhon Whitbreade' to whom
he bequeathed the tithe called 'Elsto Tithe' was the younger son of his brother
Lawrence. BUT John did not mention Lawrence's elder son Henry, and both of
Lawrence's sons would have still been minors [and John son of Lawrence is
otherwise unknown, not known to have married or left a probate or burial
record].
I think it more likely that John Whitbread (son of Thomas), was giving Elstow
Tithe to John [probably his godson], only known son of Thomas Whitbread of
Elstow, and thus Thomas of Elstow would be son of the first Thomas of Upper
Gravenhurst.
The first Thomas Whitbread, of Upper Gravenhurst, was alive in 1552, when
mentioned in the will of his son Lawrence, but no probate record was found.
Sir William Gasgoyne, knight, had made a feoffment of the manor of Schepoe with
appurtenances in Great and Little Gravenhurst and Clopton to Thomas Whytebrede
on 12 April 1538.
John Whitbread, son of Thomas Whitbread of Elstow cannot have been entirely
indigent. Remember that his widow Ellenor (Harvey?) had left a silver measure
and a number of silver spoons to children and grandchildren, but far beyond
this, her eldest son William and his eldest son Henry Whitbread, GENTLEMEN,
received 2,200 pounds for the capitol house or manor house in the tenure of
William and Henry, with four cottages in Upper Gravenhurst, paid by William
Aleyn, Citizen and Grocer of London. William and Henry covenanted against
either of them, or by John Whitbred, deceased, father of the said William, or
by Thomas Whitbread, deceased, grandfather, dated 8 Oct. 1639.
However, we should point out that Torrey has an incompete entry for the
children of William Whitbread whom he places as father of George and Ralph
Whitbread. That William he shows as son of John, son of Thomas. An entirely
new analysis of these Whitbreads and how Torrey sorted them out may be needed.
Paul
Reedpcgen
>new analysis of these Whitbreads and how Torrey sorted them out may be
>needed.
>
After analyzing things again and checking resources to see that nothing was
missed, I'm in agreement with the way Torrey displayed the two lines for
Whitbread in Bedfordshire, with the caveat that I think the reference to the
nephew John Whitbread mentioned in the 1563 will of John Whitbread of Upper
Gravenhurst was to John son of Thomas of Elstow, not John son of Lawrence.
Also, I think it more likely that Lawrence was second son of the eldest Thomas,
as his brother John inherited Ien/Ion and the tithes that their father had
held.
The Henry son of William son of John son of Thomas who was party to the 1639
conveyance must belong to the Elstow branch, as his wife Elizabeth entered into
the agreement, and that Henry is known from other records to have married
Elizabeth Leventhorpe. So the eldest son of Ellenor (Harvey?) Whitbread sold a
manor house and cottages in Upper Gravenhurst for 2,200 pounds in 1639, and was
styled gentleman. Not bad.
One additional note, Torrey had estimated that this William was born about
1573, but William Whitbread, yeoman, of Gravenhurst, swore deposition in 1625,
stating that he was then 55 or thereabouts, or born about 1570.
One ought to also note that Gravenhurst is in the southeast part of
Bedfordshire, next to the border of Hertfordshire. Elstow is about ten miles
to the northwest. The eldest Thomas Whitbread, who was of Yen/Ion by 1526,
obtained the tithes IN ION [Gravenhurst] that had belonged to the Abbey of
Elstow by patent in 1553. This eldest Thomas was therefore likely a tenant of
the Abbey of Elstow before the Dissolution, which may explain why a son named
Thomas relocated there.
Paul
Reedpcgen
initial document in more detail (for those who do not have all the documents on
hand ;-).
On 1 August 1611, Sir Edward Radcliffe, of "Eluestowe" sold John
Radwell of Kempston, ploughwright, in consideration of 32 pounds,
a messuage or tenement with yard garden and adjoining orchard in
Eluestowe between land of the King and Lambes Lane alias Lambesyate on the west
highway leading from Eluestowe to Kempston on the north and the Common green
there on the south, to be held of the chief lord of the fee by the rents and
services therefore due.
"Edw: Radcliffe" then signed a "Covenant of assurance against Dame Isabel
Radcliffe late of Eluestowe deceased his mother." As Isabel (Hervey) Radcliffe
was already deceased, the covenant was to guard against claims from her heirs.
THEN, that same day, Sir Edward Radcliffe entered a bond for 60 pounds to
secure the deed poll just made to John Radwill.
THEN, that same day, John Whitbread of Eluestowe, husbandman, also entered a
bond for the sum of 20 pounds to John Radwell, "assuring him quiet enjoyment of
above premises as agains[t] Elner Whitbread of Eluestowe, widow, his mother."
The above is taken from Bedfordshire Deeds compiled by F. A. Page-Turner,
published by the Bedfordshire Historical Record Society, v. 4.
The main point being that the two individuals who had interest in the sold
property apparently in their own right were Dame Isabel and Ellenor. As Dame
Isabel was daughter and heir of Edmund Hervey, the connection to Ellenor would
appear to be through the Hervey family.
The only other possible speculation might be that since John Whitbread's bond
was only one-third of the amound entered by Sir Edward Radcliffe, he was only
assuring against dower claims his widowed mother might make.
Paul
js...@taylorisd.org
I understand I am commenting on a very old post but I wanted to see if you have been able to verify your ancestry.
I am also trying to confirm so conflicting/omitted information regarding a daughter of Henry Radclyffe and Elizabeth Howard. Mary Grey Radclyffe, who married Thomas Dykes, is listed on several sites but I am looking for a concrete source.
Any ideas?
Thanks!
Jina Self
jin...@aol.com
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