Is it worth learning python?
Raphael Ribeiro
Visual Basic , but i don't find it interesting ,sorry for the vb
programmers, but this is my opinion). And I was reading some docs ,
which were talking about lots of programming languages, I saw there
Python , and took a look at some python sites. I saw some snippets and
read some docs and liked the language a lot. But I don't know if this
language is well-accepted in the market and if having a good python
knowledge would give me a good job.. I am only 17 and I'm only making
plans, so if you have any suggestions tell me.
Raphael Ribeiro
Gerhard Häring
> I wanna start learning some real programming language (I know now only
> Visual Basic , but i don't find it interesting, sorry for the vb
> programmers, but this is my opinion).
Understandable :-)
> And I was reading some docs, which were talking about lots of programming
> languages, I saw there Python, and took a look at some python sites. I
> saw some snippets and read some docs and liked the language a lot. But I
> don't know if this language is well-accepted in the market and if having
> a good python knowledge would give me a good job.
As for the job market, Python isn't among the buzzwords that you'll find in
job descriptions most of the time. But software development isn't that much
about particular technologies, the important part is learning concepts. If
you learn Python, you won't be able to avoid learning (at least):
- Object Oriented Programming (OOP)
- Procedural Programming
There's a lot more concepts that you can learn while using Python, as you
advance a little more:
- Functional Programming
- Test Driven Development
- Dividing software into components
> I am only 17 and I'm only making plans, so if you have any suggestions
> tell me.
Ok, I'll try :-)
Learn concepts, not tools. At least in the long run, this will make you
more attractive to employers who have a clue about what's important in the
software industry.
There are some more skills that are especially important:
- Team work: dividing up tasks. Defining the interfaces up front to avoid
blocking other team members who wait for you. Using a source code control
system [1]
- Communication/efficient problem solving: not trying yourself for days to
solve a problem that could be solved a lot more efficiently by calling
the client or writing an email - I've had problems with this myself in
the past, I guess that's not an uncommon problem for developers.
- Software reliability: that's a difficult one. IMO experience,
concentration, unit tests, and always trying to improve on yourself help
you achieve it.
[1] If you have some spare time you can learn that by joining an Open
Source project.
--
Gerhard Häring
OPUS GmbH München
Tel.: +49 89 - 889 49 7 - 32
http://www.opus-gmbh.net/
Peter Hansen
Someone else around your age recently posted a very similar question.
If you try searching the archives (groups.google.com) for this
newsgroup from within the last two months (if I recall) you might find
it.
As for your question about the job market, are you planning to go
to university/college for further schooling before you are seriously
looking for programming work? If so, do NOT worry about which
language is currently popular or not, because the landscape will
certainly have changed in another eight years or whenever you will
be done school.
With that out of the way :-), Python is an excellent first language,
or second or whatever, and there are definitely companies using it
extensively. At my current place of employment, we have had as many
as fifteen developers all using Python for a wide variety of tasks.
In fact, it was and remains our key programming language for almost
all application areas (excluding client-side web programming, and
some embedded/realtime systems work).
I really wish Python had been available when I was 17... I would
have wasted far less time in my life with lesser options.
-Peter
Delaney, Timothy
Longer answer: Even if you never use Python in your working career (highly
unlikely once you've learned it) it will be worthwhile learning Python.
Python is probably the most accessible "real" programming language and
allows you to learn important programming and design concepts without lots
of cruft getting in your way. It has a clean and consistent syntax, and a
(generally) clean and consistent set of libraries. And it only takes about a
week to become productive in it (OK - if you've never programmed before,
maybe two weeks).
Tim Delaney
Grant Edwards
> I wanna start learning some real programming language
[...]
> But I don't know if this
> language is well-accepted in the market and if having a good python
> knowledge would give me a good job..
If you want a good job, you'll need a degree. That means you've got 4-5
more years to learn languages (and the market as 4-5 more years to accept
Python). By then you'll have learned a half-dozen languages (assuming you
go to a school with a decent curriculum).
I think Python is definitly worth learning. But I'd say the same about
COBOL, C, Prolog, FORTRAN, Modula-3, Scheme, Smalltalk, Perl, APL, PDP-11 machine
language (PDP-11 assmebler too) and at least six others.
Whether they should be used for a real-world project is a completely
different question: "worth learning" != "worth using".
But, the "one true programming language" doesn't exist. Python, however, is
a damn good shadow on the cave wall. Most of the concepts you learn in
Python are easily transferred to other languages.
> I am only 17 and I'm only making plans, so if you have any suggestions tell
> me.
Stop planning, start programming :)
So many languages, so little time...
--
Grant Edwards
gra...@visi.com
Dean Goodmanson
> I don't know if this
> language is well-accepted in the market and if having a good python
> knowledge would give me a good job.. I am only 17 and I'm only making
> plans, so if you have any suggestions tell me.
>
an excellent language to learn and experiment with _many_ of
the concepts from the computer industry and science.
It easily accessible with a natural environment for
experimentation and beyond: Shell environment,
natural for procedural and object orientation applications,
profesional
application development/software engineering concepts well supported
from
unit testing to managable coding practices and patterns, onto most of
the computer science concepts you can think of (
http://www.norvig.com/python/python.html , for example.)
From there you can confidently venture into other languages,
which I've found to overwhelm a newbie (well, at least myself)
with syntactical elements that obscure the fundamentals of
programming and software development.
(I have a C/C++ background, and wished I had found
Python instead of BASIC first, as many of the concepts implemented
in C/C++ I struggled with have a much easier learning curve in
Python.)
Start here: http://python.org/doc/Newbies.html
When your lost go here:
http://www.python.org/psa/MailingLists.html#tutor
(Of course, be sure to check the archives & google before firing off
your questions.)
On a side note: I'm assuming your focused on learning a language, not
coding up a GUI as VB is primed for. When you're ready to start
experimenting with Python in a GUI, a close VB comparison is the
PythonCard project: www.pythoncard.org
- Dean
stibbs
> I wanna start learning some real programming language (I know now only
> Visual Basic , but i don't find it interesting ,sorry for the vb
> programmers, but this is my opinion). And I was reading some docs ,
> which were talking about lots of programming languages, I saw there
> Python , and took a look at some python sites. I saw some snippets and
> read some docs and liked the language a lot. But I don't know if this
> language is well-accepted in the market and if having a good python
> knowledge would give me a good job..
The best advice you can get on which languages are hot for the job
market these days is by going to dice.com. Do a search on
the OS you use and a language:
unix python
or
windows python
be sure to do searches on other popular languages..
perl, ruby, php, c++, c, and java.
php is pretty easy to learn and you can find a job if you know it. my
guess is python and ruby will have the least amount of jobs available.
out of the scripting languages perl is what is in demand.
>I am only 17 and I'm only making
> plans, so if you have any suggestions tell me.
I would suggest you learn python and perl. python to learn on because it
seems you like it, and perl because it's used in the real world a lot in
unix or e-commerce oriented work. Plus ifyou learn perl, php should be a
breeze because besides the OOP part of php, perl and php are similar in
syntax. If i were you i would start off by making small scripts in python
and then port them one by one to perl.
OR
learn python and java, there is something called jython and once you
know both you can have access to all the java classes and modules through
python (plus all of pythons). jython puts out java byte-code so
*basically* you can program in python to make java applications.
why not just learn perl or java? because once you have experienced learning
through python's interactive interpreter you're addicted :). ruby also
has an interactive interpreter and is fully OOP, might want to have a
look for fun.
if you use unix or linux as your main OS i would suggest the python + perl.
If you're main OS is win, i would suggest the python +java.
www.jython.org
www.perl.org
www.ruby-lang.org
Happy language hunting!
stibbs
>
> Raphael Ribeiro
d2002xx
gus...@terra.com.br (Raphael Ribeiro) wrote:
> I wanna start learning some real programming language (I know now
> only Visual Basic , but i don't find it interesting ,sorry for the
> vb programmers, but this is my opinion). And I was reading some docs
> , which were talking about lots of programming languages, I saw
> there Python , and took a look at some python sites. I saw some
> snippets and read some docs and liked the language a lot. But I
> don't know if this language is well-accepted in the market and if
> having a good python knowledge would give me a good job..
well-accepted? Not enough now. But I think future well-acceptance is
mort important, it maybe risky, though.
> I am only
> 17 and I'm only making plans, so if you have any suggestions tell
> me.
Hmmm... I'm only 18 and also only making plans :)
Suggestion is: First, forget VB, it's not cross-platform, and locked
by one company, which will lead you to unfortune. Then learn both
python and java, and ... .Net/C#, though not yet investigated. Then,
the most important, software-engine.
And... trusting my suggestion maybe also risky :)
Aahz
Nope. Degree helps, but it's not needed.
--
Aahz (aa...@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
Project Vote Smart: http://www.vote-smart.org/
Grant Edwards
> In article <slrnam8elt...@localhost.localdomain>,
> Grant Edwards <gra...@visi.com> wrote:
>>
>>If you want a good job, you'll need a degree.
>
> Nope. Degree helps, but it's not needed.
Depends on definition of "good job" I suppose. None of my employers would
hire engineers without degrees, but maybe that's not a representative sample.
--
Grant Edwards
gra...@visi.com
Peter Hansen
I wouldn't be likely to hire an "engineer" without a degree, but in
Canada that's effectively an oxymoron anyway. I would certainly hire
developers without degrees if they had the necessary background and
attitude/ability/etc to fill the job. (I've done this once so far.)
And I provide an *excellent* job for people. :)
Aahz is right. It's not essential, but generally it helps.
-Peter
Peter Hansen
>
> Then learn both
> python and java, and ... .Net/C#, though not yet investigated. Then,
> the most important, software-engine.
What the heck is "software-engine"? That wouldn't be some funky
autocoder, now, would it?
-Peter
Heiko Wundram
Am Don, 2002-08-22 um 05.29 schrieb Aahz:
> In article <slrnam8elt...@localhost.localdomain>,
> Grant Edwards <gra...@visi.com> wrote:
> >If you want a good job, you'll need a degree.
> Nope. Degree helps, but it's not needed.
Err... The European job market looks a little worse than that, I can
tell you...
I've applied for a job at several computer firms here (Python isn't the
sole language I use/know), but all of them rejected my application
saying: "Come back when you have your bachelor" or something of the
like. What might be appropriate to add is that I didn't apply for a
fulltime job, but a job I can manage to do while still studying.
Well... Leaves me with working here at university. And earning almost no
money for jobs that might otherwise be paid at about 50,- € per hour...
:) And working almost fulltime anyway... :)
Anyway, just my two cents on the matter...
Heiko W.
Chris Lamb
Gerhard's advice is very good, indeed.
I would also emphasise learning a couple of other languages since they
all use these basic concepts but often with differing "ways" of doing
it. Java is a good combination with Python imho. Between them there is a
wealth of functionality.
Also, try to have fun and learn by developing things you would love to
use yourself, makes learning much easier!
Best wishes
Chris
d2002xx
> autocoder, now, would it?
Ah... wrong word, is "software engineering"
Mr. Neutron
Yes, it is definitely worth learning Python. While there are very little
jobs in the market I have seen that say Python developer in the title, it
is a good tool to have under your belt. Many companies are using Python
for prototyping and scripting, but don't publicize this fact. Knowing
Python can also be a very educational and rewarding experience!
Visual Basic seems to be dying in the market. My experience of looking
for work has shown that most companies are looking for Java developers at
the moment, with experience in C/C++ and Python or Perl. C/C++
programmers are next, followed by Perl. Compare this to several years
ago, when VB was number one in the number of jobs posted.
If you want my advice, learn Python. Then learn C++ and Java. Perl is
also useful to know, and it is different than Python in many ways, it is
more or less in the same class of language as Python (scripting).
In any case you should fundamentally learn C programming. It is the most
widely used language around. A basic grasp of C goes along way. Most
modern languages incorporate ideas from C into their syntax. Once you
know C you know how to move to many other languages. C++ is just C with
extensions to the language. If you know C++, you know C. If you know C++,
you can move to Java with less learning curve.
I don't suggest Pascal unless you have some historical interest in
educational languages. While Pascal is a capable language, and I learned
to program in it and actually like the language, it is not heavily used in the USA
that I know of. There is support for it by Borland (Delphi/Kylix) and it is popular in
some circles.
So if you wanted my advice (I have programmed in C/C++ and Pascal for
over 10 years, and I am now catching onto the interpretive and higher
level language fever) learn Python.
The fundamental concept of programming though is not to become engrossed
in the language of implementation but the *concepts* of programming. Once
you have mastered the concepts of computer science, language
implementation is just the translation of the idea into a working
program. Language syntax is fundamentally different from one to another
but the essential concepts of computer programming are the same in all
languages. Concepts like algorithms, recursion, and data structures are
the essential ingredients of making a program. When you understand these
principles, you just need to learn a language to implement them into.
Once you have mastered a language (particularly C) and the concepts,
moving to other languages is not hard. Python gives you all the tools to
learn the important concepts of programming interactively. Maybe some
might disagree with my statement. Computer programming is
an art and a science. Each language I know or have experimented with
emphasizes some particular way to accomplish the same thing. Python is
like a swiss army knife or a monkey wrench. It is useful for many
different things, but it is not a specialty language. It is an all around
good general computing language and I really have enjoyed it so far. I
have only found one problem with it so far.
It's important to understand that every language has pros and cons.
No language is perfect. Python has faults and there are issues that are
not really possible in the language that can only be done in C. Python is
also slower than C because it is interpreted. There is a tool I saw for
Python for JIT compiling (psyco) which claims to speed Python up. I
haven't tried it yet.
C/C++ fault is that it can take forever to compile your programs (if they
are very large), it is easy to make mistakes and crash your program (or
the computer), the syntax is sometimes very difficult to read, and it
takes reams of code to do a simple thing that you can do in a few lines
in Python. On the positive side it is very fast execution speed as it
compiles to native code.
I know little about Java. It is interpreted like Python (through the
JVM). It is a strongly typed Object oriented language. It has many tools
available to it. It is not a scripting language like Python. It is very
popular with server side development and network programmers. It is based
on the philosophy 'Write once run anywhere' which made me puke when I
heard that (I can write C/C++ code that I can write once and compile
anywhere too...or pascal...I was very resistant to Java, and to Python,
because in my mind I could see no difference between them when I learned
about them.. my bad... also computers have gotten much faster in the past
10 years as well. It is feasible to write large programs in Python and
Java now. Back then things were to slow (if you can get your hands on a
80486SX computer compare it to a modern P4 computer...))
##########################################################################
Ok I've tortured you with my advice so now go learn Python and be happy!
You will learn to appreciate it! It is really a cool language.
Dag
> language is well-accepted in the market and if having a good python
> knowledge would give me a good job..
The thing I like about Python as a learning language is that it's clean
and simple enough to get you started almost right away yet powerful
enough to cover almost every programming task. Also I find that its
syntax and gramar is very good for teaching and learning good basic
proramming habits.
Basically learning to program is hard, learning a new language once you
know how to program is quite easy. Python will have you learning how to
program faster and better than any other language I have seen. If you
want to stick with python or move on to other languages afterwards is up
to you.
Dag
Matthew Sherborne
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>>In article <ak1lq0$gro$1...@panix1.panix.com>, Aahz wrote:
>>
>>>In article <slrnam8elt...@localhost.localdomain>,
>>>Grant Edwards <gra...@visi.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>If you want a good job, you'll need a degree.
>>>
>>>Nope. Degree helps, but it's not needed.
I have no degree, and am head of software development (in a small
company allbeit).
I got asked about not having a degree in about 50% of interviews. And
now I interview others, and I gave one person a job who had a nice
portfolio of work over another person who had 3 degrees.
I think non-it-savvy employers look for degrees because they have no
other way of measuring.
Matthew Sherborne
Sean 'Shaleh' Perry
>
> I think non-it-savvy employers look for degrees because they have no
> other way of measuring.
>
Here in the SF bay area / Sillicon valley whenever the job market gets tight
the want ads say "degree required". It appears to be an easy way to reduce
the number of resumes they have to read. Just about anyone with a clue
realizes that while a degree is a good indication most good programmers have
not gone to or perhaps finished college.
That said, if you can find a good degree program I recommend it. Anyone can
learn to program. However some of the truly deep hacking requires learning
that is very hard to get as on the job training. I find that I run into
places where a class I was scheduled to take would have made it possible for
me to work on a project but unfortunately I dropped out just before more
junior year finished.
Jim
<snipped>
> I got asked about not having a degree in about 50% of interviews. And
> now I interview others, and I gave one person a job who had a nice
> portfolio of work over another person who had 3 degrees.
>
> I think non-it-savvy employers look for degrees because they have no
> other way of measuring.
Not to mention the fact that these employers don't know a good thing when
they see it.
Jim
>
> Matthew Sherborne
--
Registered Linux User #269187
http://counter.li.org
Peter Hansen
>
> On Thursday 22 August 2002 12:17 pm, Matthew Sherborne wrote:
> >
> > I think non-it-savvy employers look for degrees because they have no
> > other way of measuring.
>
> realizes that while a degree is a good indication most good programmers have
> not gone to or perhaps finished college.
I'm not sure about "most", but that's probably an impossible discussion. :)
I've found that more than 90% of programmers I've met who do not have
university degrees simply do not have the depth and breadth of
experience to qualify as what I would call "software engineers".
On the other hand, I have a university engineering degree and
I would say that more than 90% of the students in my graduating
class, not to mention many of those from the Math/CS department,
simply do not have the depth and breadth of experience to qualify
as what I would call "software engineers". :)
The degree or lack thereof is far from being the most relevant
factor in this issue.
-Peter
Tim Lavoie
> I've found that more than 90% of programmers I've met who do not have
> university degrees simply do not have the depth and breadth of
> experience to qualify as what I would call "software engineers".
>
> On the other hand, I have a university engineering degree and
> I would say that more than 90% of the students in my graduating
> class, not to mention many of those from the Math/CS department,
> simply do not have the depth and breadth of experience to qualify
> as what I would call "software engineers". :)
>
> The degree or lack thereof is far from being the most relevant
> factor in this issue.
True enough. I think the degree helps in exposing the student to more than
they necessarily need to know "right now", i.e. digital logic, boolean math
and hardware basics, instead of just specific apps which are currently in
demand. There still has to be (IMHO) the hacker interest to dig around and
get dirty.
I worked for a while at the same company as one of my CS classmates, who was
an Honours student, probably with better grades than mine. She had no deep
interest in this stuff though, she just thought it would be a decent-paying
job. I got a chuckle one time when she came by to see what I was up to,
which happened to be dissecting HP PCL output from another program so I
could reverse-engineer it. I've got this binary loaded up in XEmacs, and her
reaction is, "WHAT. IS. THAT?" I tell her, and she just gets this blank
look, goes "Oh.", and wanders away. <grin> Better yet, my manager considered
this to be a PITA project (for Pain In The A**), and thought I would be
miffed at having to do it. Heheh. It beat what he considered to be the Good
Stuff.
In terms of interviewing, perhaps part of the test should be done prior to
the interview. Have them wait somewhere due to "unforeseen delays," where
there is a bunch of Lego on a table in the corner. Hire the ones who can't
resist building something while they wait.
Cheers,
Tim
--
"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the
law."
-- Winston Churchill
Andres Rosado
>I wanna start learning some real programming language (I know now only
>Visual Basic , but i don't find it interesting ,sorry for the vb
>programmers, but this is my opinion). And I was reading some docs ,
>which were talking about lots of programming languages, I saw there
>Python , and took a look at some python sites. I saw some snippets and
>language is well-accepted in the market and if having a good python
>plans, so if you have any suggestions tell me.
Don't think in the market place yet. What's important is the programming
skills and not the language where you learned them. I know of a consultant
that has programmed in just about every language that he didn't studied on
University. So, learn how to program, and try your skill in various
languages. Python is a great first language.
-----------------------------------
Andres Rosado
Email: and...@despammed.com
ICQ: 66750646
Homepage: http://andres980.tripod.com/
If the designers of X-window built cars, there would be no fewer than five
steering wheels hidden about the cockpit, none of which followed the same
principles -- but you'd be able to shift gears with your car stereo. Useful
feature, that.
-- From the programming notebooks of a heretic, 1990.
Noah
> languages. Python is a great first language.
Python is a great last language!
Noah
Peter Hansen
QOTW!
-Peter
frip...@wanadoo.fr
Python is really a favorite one
Well it's new, and like everything new, it relies on preceding languages to
simplify their complications.
But as everything new Python is not very mature and it relies on the efforts
of developers to that purpose.
holger krekel
yeah, it rulz :-)
> Well it's new, and like everything new, it relies on preceding languages to
> simplify their complications.
It's not as new as you might think. What do you think?
> But as everything new Python is not very mature and it relies on the efforts
> of developers to that purpose.
IMO python's developers have produced incredibly mature code so far.
What exactly do you question?
holger