Tweaking a precon
Zaxx
for something with a blue mana base. Darksteel Forge is an obvious
adjustment as would be another Reshape or two.
What other modifications would you suggest to make this deck worthy of an
appearance at a Friday night game?
--
Gravity. It's not just a good idea. It's the law.
Sorcier
>
> The new "Transference" deck has a good synergy to it and it's fairly fast
> for something with a blue mana base. Darksteel Forge is an obvious
> adjustment as would be another Reshape or two.
>
> What other modifications would you suggest to make this deck worthy of an
> appearance at a Friday night game?
Right off the bat, toss the Rust Elemental.
I understand why he's there but there must be a better card
to help you sacrife your Arcbounds.
Something that would be optional instead of almost mandatory, and that
wouldn't bite you when you can't sacrife to it.
Must be something that can stand in as a Blue or Artifact "Atog".
If Echoing Truth wasn't so cheap, I'd say ditch it too.
Unsummon is cheaper, but Truth can bounce non-creatures.
Playing the deck, I'm not too happy with the Neurok Familar.
I'd don't like tossing the cards.
Having a cheap flier is nice, hell, take Sea Eagles. <g>
But the main use I've seen for the Familair is a Skullclamp
victim and there are better choices for that.
(Nuisance Engine maybe?)
Ur-Golem Eye seems pricy when a Temple of the False God
(?) will do the job cheaper.
Yeah, it takes a land play, and yeah you can't do Artifact
tricks with it, but still.
There are probably other choices that beat out the Eye also.
Juggernaut might be worth tossing.
Having to attack makes it more likely to get killed.
OTOH, it can get by walls.
Still thing some other beef would be better though.
And there's no Artfact Affinity in this deck so toss
the Seats of the Synod unless you really need some sacrifable
artifacts. Otherwise plain islands are fine and get your Spire
Golem out cheaper.
Hm, things to consider adding:
This deck begs for Memnarch if you have him.
More Spire Golems! Free 2/4 Fliers!
Power Conduit maybe, lots of tokens to shift around.
Which of course gives a nod to Serum Tank as an extra
counter source.
Zaxx
> Right off the bat, toss the Rust Elemental.
> I understand why he's there but there must be a better card
> to help you sacrife your Arcbounds.
Hmm... I dunno. He gets big in a hurry when you transfer the +1/+1 counters
directly to him.
> If Echoing Truth wasn't so cheap, I'd say ditch it too.
> Unsummon is cheaper, but Truth can bounce non-creatures.
And more than one. Definitely worth the extra {1}.
> Playing the deck, I'm not too happy with the Neurok Familar.
That is a weak spot. I can't think of any 2cc creatures that would add to
the synergy of this deck though. Wizard Replica would make a nice addition
but that would slow the deck down.
> But the main use I've seen for the Familair is a Skullclamp
> victim and there are better choices for that.
> (Nuisance Engine maybe?)
Actually, that's what I use the Arbound Worker for. Clamp the Worker, move
the counter to my Reclaimer, draw two cards. At the end of my opponent's
turn, I reclaim the Worker and repeat the process.
> There are probably other choices that beat out the Eye also.
I prefer Cloudpost to Temple. That five land requirement really hurts when
you draw Temple early in the game.
> And there's no Artfact Affinity in this deck so toss
> the Seats of the Synod unless you really need some sacrifable
> artifacts.
I noticed that.
> Hm, things to consider adding:
> This deck begs for Memnarch if you have him.
The Transmuters certainly make it cheaper to do the whole "make it an
artifact then steal it" combo.
> More Spire Golems! Free 2/4 Fliers!
2/4 on or after turn 6 is no great shakes. The golem doesn't impress me.
> Power Conduit maybe, lots of tokens to shift around.
> Which of course gives a nod to Serum Tank as an extra
> counter source.
Interesting thought.
--
Gravity: it's not just a good idea, it's the law.
Obser79495
>> for something with a blue mana base. Darksteel Forge is an obvious
>> adjustment as would be another Reshape or two.
>Right off the bat, toss the Rust Elemental.
>I understand why he's there but there must be a better card
>to help you sacrife your Arcbounds.
>Something that would be optional instead of almost mandatory, and that
>wouldn't bite you when you can't sacrife to it.
>Must be something that can stand in as a Blue or Artifact "Atog".
That's easy to figure out but hard to get, the obvious answer is Arcbound
Ravager...he's a nice 2cc, has modular and you can sac artifacts to him to make
him bigger....just what the doctor ordered. Unfortunately, he's also very hard
to get and really expensive to buy.
>
>Playing the deck, I'm not too happy with the Neurok Familar.
>I'd don't like tossing the cards.
>Having a cheap flier is nice, hell, take Sea Eagles. <g>
>But the main use I've seen for the Familair is a Skullclamp
>victim and there are better choices for that.
>(Nuisance Engine maybe?)
instead of a creature, how about a spell? The blue affinity based card (costs
4U, affinity artifacts draw two cards) would work best in this situation.
A decent creature alternative would be a neurok spy. Sure he's one more but
with Neurok Transmuter, he can become a really big unblockable creature.
>Ur-Golem Eye seems pricy when a Temple of the False God
>(?) will do the job cheaper.
>Yeah, it takes a land play, and yeah you can't do Artifact
>tricks with it, but still.
>There are probably other choices that beat out the Eye also.
More engineers would beat out the Eye..They give the same amount of mana, and
most of your spells are artifacts anyway.
>
>Juggernaut might be worth tossing.
>Having to attack makes it more likely to get killed.
>OTOH, it can get by walls.
>Still thing some other beef would be better though.
As the sheet says, if you can get Broodstar....go for it... it'll work out
great. FYI, there's a pre con with Broodstar in it.
>More Spire Golems! Free 2/4 Fliers!
>Power Conduit maybe, lots of tokens to shift around.
Like this idea, Conduit would do great in the deck.
I'd also take out the Dross Scorpion, and the Voltaic Construct. Add in
Lodestone Myr as well for that extra trample damage. Some equipment would also
go a long way with this deck. Some candidates are Bonesplitter, Fireshrieker,
and if you're using the Conduit, Banshee's Blade.
Zaxx
> That's easy to figure out but hard to get, the obvious answer is
> Arcbound Ravager...he's a nice 2cc, has modular and you can sac
> artifacts to him to make him bigger....just what the doctor ordered.
> Unfortunately, he's also very hard to get and really expensive to buy.
Good point. I'll keep my eyes open for him. Do you think Skeleton Shard
would be worth splashing some black into the deck? What about Crystal Shard
for creature control?
> instead of a creature, how about a spell? The blue affinity based
> card (costs 4U, affinity artifacts draw two cards) would work best in
> this situation.
Pulse of the Grid seems worth the extra {1}. What do you think?
> As the sheet says, if you can get Broodstar....go for it... it'll
> work out great. FYI, there's a pre con with Broodstar in it.
That Mirrodin UB affinity deck. Considering the Broodstar alone sells for
close to 8$, a couple of those decks would be a bargain considering all the
other cards I'd get as well.
> I'd also take out the Dross Scorpion, and the Voltaic Construct.
Someone posted an interesting idea concerning the use of Voltaic Construct
and Gilded Lotus for infinite mana. With the Transmuter in place, it'd cost
{4} to get the loop started but it'd be self-supporting after that. Does
that sound workable?
Then again, without something like Memnarch there's really no need for all
that mana is there? Unless I go with the black splash idea. Then I could use
Consume Spirit for an alternate win condition.
> Add in Lodestone Myr as well for that extra trample damage.
With the modular creatures, that's not a bad idea. There's also a Lodestone
Myr in that same deck with the Broodstar.
Sorcier
>
> Sorcier wrote:
>
> > Right off the bat, toss the Rust Elemental.
> > I understand why he's there but there must be a better card
> > to help you sacrife your Arcbounds.
>
> Hmm... I dunno. He gets big in a hurry when you transfer the +1/+1 counters
> directly to him.
That is his saving grace in this deck. IF your fliers aren't blocked,
and IF you can get the counters on him quick, he's deadly. Otherwise
he's pulling off your artifacts or your life, and not always
at the optimal time or order. Using him at the right time is often
decisive, but getting stuck with him can kill you.
I still think there are likely better artifact sinks.
> > If Echoing Truth wasn't so cheap, I'd say ditch it too.
> > Unsummon is cheaper, but Truth can bounce non-creatures.
>
> And more than one. Definitely worth the extra {1}.
I've found it rare that I get to use the "same name" feature to
much benefit against anything but token decks. Of course there,
it can be critical. So yeah, I'm still with "keep it".
> > But the main use I've seen for the Familair is a Skullclamp
> > victim and there are better choices for that.
> > (Nuisance Engine maybe?)
>
> Actually, that's what I use the Arbound Worker for.
Likewise. I'm just saying that if fliers are blocked, or if your
facing the many effects that can one shot a x/1 creature, the only
real use left for the familar is for card drawing. And IME, both
of those negative effects are common.
> Clamp the Worker, move
> the counter to my Reclaimer, draw two cards. At the end of my opponent's
> turn, I reclaim the Worker and repeat the process.
I've haven't had the Reclaimer out enough to try that. But I'll look
out
for it. Thanks.
> > There are probably other choices that beat out the Eye also.
>
> I prefer Cloudpost to Temple. That five land requirement really hurts when
> you draw Temple early in the game.
True. If you have four Cloudposts to stock it's a great choice.
And I know people who swear by the Urza lands, so they may be an option.
Downside, as I said, is still losing a source of non-land mana, but
there
are probably better picks for that than the Eye.
> > Hm, things to consider adding:
> > This deck begs for Memnarch if you have him.
>
> The Transmuters certainly make it cheaper to do the whole "make it an
> artifact then steal it" combo.
Exactly.
> > More Spire Golems! Free 2/4 Fliers!
>
> 2/4 on or after turn 6 is no great shakes. The golem doesn't impress me.
I can understand that. Guess I have a weakness for fliers and for cards
that play cheap or for free. Especially in decks that draw fast.
> > Power Conduit maybe, lots of tokens to shift around.
> > Which of course gives a nod to Serum Tank as an extra
> > counter source.
>
> Interesting thought.
I still trying to wrangle a deck around those two and the Nuisance
Engine.
Skull clamp makes a sweet addition. A late Coat of Arms might work too.
I've been pounded by that from Nuisance decks before.
Sorcier
>
> >Playing the deck, I'm not too happy with the Neurok Familar.
> >I'd don't like tossing the cards.
> >Having a cheap flier is nice, hell, take Sea Eagles. <g>
> >But the main use I've seen for the Familair is a Skullclamp
> >victim and there are better choices for that.
> >(Nuisance Engine maybe?)
>
> instead of a creature, how about a spell? The blue affinity based card (costs
> 4U, affinity artifacts draw two cards) would work best in this situation.
I think I like this idea.
Actual card draws rather than "maybe" card draw and "maybe" deck
seepage.
Good call.
> A decent creature alternative would be a neurok spy. Sure he's one more but
> with Neurok Transmuter, he can become a really big unblockable creature.
The Spy loses you the draw chance, but he's often harder to block than
fliers.
Especially in Mirrodin block. And this deck can force your opponent to
have
artifacts, so, yeah, another good call.
> >Ur-Golem Eye seems pricy when a Temple of the False God
> >(?) will do the job cheaper.
> >Yeah, it takes a land play, and yeah you can't do Artifact
> >tricks with it, but still.
> >There are probably other choices that beat out the Eye also.
>
> More engineers would beat out the Eye..They give the same amount of mana, and
> most of your spells are artifacts anyway.
Granted. OTOH, I've often been holding a medium size hand with no
artifacts
while my Engineers go to waste. OTTH, more Engineers can get the bigger
artifacts out _very_ fast. Or combine nicely with my Nuisance, Serum
Tank,
Power Conduit, or Skullclamp ideas.
> >Juggernaut might be worth tossing.
> >Having to attack makes it more likely to get killed.
> >OTOH, it can get by walls.
> >Still thing some other beef would be better though.
>
> As the sheet says, if you can get Broodstar....go for it... it'll work out
> great. FYI, there's a pre con with Broodstar in it.
Another good call.
Those things are wicked.
> >Power Conduit maybe, lots of tokens to shift around.
>
> Like this idea, Conduit would do great in the deck.
>
> I'd also take out the Dross Scorpion, and the Voltaic Construct.
I consider that. I see uses for both, but I don't feel I've gotten
a lot of utility out of either.
> Add in
> Lodestone Myr as well for that extra trample damage.
That could work, especially in combo with the Nuisance Engine.
> Some equipment would also
> go a long way with this deck. Some candidates are Bonesplitter, Fireshrieker,
> and if you're using the Conduit, Banshee's Blade.
Fireshrieker and Banshee's Blades are often early "likely" picks for me
in
any deck. I didn't consider them here as they didn't seem to boost the
theme and synergies directly, but your right about the Blade once the
Conduit
is around. Others to consider is the "unbalanced" <g> Loxodon Warhammer
and
the Wispersilk Cloak. I haven't played with the Hammer but I hear good
things
and occassional suffer from them. The Cloak is always game breaking,
but it
can be a lot of fun, and it can be gamebreaking at times.
Just thought of a weird combo for this too:
An Indestrustible creature and Worldslayer.
Not always easy to pull off, but if you do, all those Arcbound counters
go to the creature (which in this deck _will_ be an artifact at the
time)
likely leaving you with the only creature in play. If he's big enough
at that point you likely win .
Sorcier
>
> Obser79495 wrote:
>
> Do you think Skeleton Shard
> would be worth splashing some black into the deck? What about Crystal Shard
> for creature control?
You don't need to splash. Vedalken Engineer's mana can be any color.
If you have a sink for the other point he'll pay for Shard abilities.
I love "Unsummon" type effects so the Crystal would be fun and useful,
though I'm not seeing an immediate synergy with this deck beyond that.
If you are adept at or just really enjoy tossing creatures in and out
of hands the Crystal might be good for you. The Skeleton Shard on the
other hand is so obvious I wish I'd thought of it! Bringing your
Arcbounds back from the graveyard is a definite plus in this deck
and the Skeleton Shard can do it cheap.
> > instead of a creature, how about a spell? The blue affinity based
> > card (costs 4U, affinity artifacts draw two cards) would work best in
> > this situation.
>
> Pulse of the Grid seems worth the extra {1}. What do you think?
I'm leary of cards that make you discard, but better players than I
often
like them. The "catch up" effect can be a nice bonus, but if you are
Skullclamping often you won't need that bonus.
> > As the sheet says, if you can get Broodstar....go for it... it'll
> > work out great. FYI, there's a pre con with Broodstar in it.
>
> That Mirrodin UB affinity deck. Considering the Broodstar alone sells for
> close to 8$, a couple of those decks would be a bargain considering all the
> other cards I'd get as well.
I'm starting to consider investing too. ;)
> > I'd also take out the Dross Scorpion, and the Voltaic Construct.
>
> Someone posted an interesting idea concerning the use of Voltaic Construct
> and Gilded Lotus for infinite mana. With the Transmuter in place, it'd cost
> {4} to get the loop started but it'd be self-supporting after that. Does
> that sound workable?
I'm missing how you're making the Lotus into a Creature.
But if you can do that, the Engineers nicely pay your (4) start up.
> Then again, without something like Memnarch there's really no need for all
> that mana is there? Unless I go with the black splash idea. Then I could use
> Consume Spirit for an alternate win condition.
Cute.
Until Memnarch comes out the extra mana could be useful. And there are
likely other alternate wins that it could pull off. By the time
Memnarch
comes out, you likely have the mana to seize what you want and can, but
if not, the loop would give you the boost to do so. That could work
nice against token decks.
> > Add in Lodestone Myr as well for that extra trample damage.
>
> With the modular creatures, that's not a bad idea. There's also a Lodestone
> Myr in that same deck with the Broodstar.
Sweet.
Lodestones have been pretty easy to get otherwise too IME.
Zaxx
> I still trying to wrangle a deck around those two and the Nuisance
> Engine.
> Skull clamp makes a sweet addition. A late Coat of Arms might work
> too. I've been pounded by that from Nuisance decks before.
I've been giving the Engine a lot of thought. With Arcbound Crusher,
Skullclamp and Nuisance Engine in play, {3} gets me two cards and a
transferrable +1/+1 buff.
Sounds like a winner to me.
Zaxx
> You don't need to splash. Vedalken Engineer's mana can be any color.
You have a point. Although only be a 1/1 makes having black mana when I need
it a bit dicey. Black land seems the safest route although Talisman of
Indulgence is more flexible (and painful).
> I love "Unsummon" type effects so the Crystal would be fun and useful,
> though I'm not seeing an immediate synergy with this deck beyond that.
That's all I'm looking at. Given the lack of mana acceleration in this deck,
it's crucial that I have some cheap threat management.
> The Skeleton Shard on the
> other hand is so obvious I wish I'd thought of it! Bringing your
> Arcbounds back from the graveyard is a definite plus in this deck
> and the Skeleton Shard can do it cheap.
My thoughts exactly. Another possibility might be My Retriever.
>> That Mirrodin UB affinity deck. Considering the Broodstar alone
>> sells for close to 8$, a couple of those decks would be a bargain
>> considering all the other cards I'd get as well.
>
> I'm starting to consider investing too. ;)
The deck is "Bait & Bludgeon". I bought one tonight. It sports several cards
that would make good additions to the Transferrence deck. The Broodstar and
Lodestone Myr alone justified the cost of the deck.
>> Someone posted an interesting idea concerning the use of Voltaic
>> Construct and Gilded Lotus for infinite mana. With the Transmuter in
>> place, it'd cost {4} to get the loop started but it'd be
>> self-supporting after that. Does that sound workable?
>
> I'm missing how you're making the Lotus into a Creature.
> But if you can do that, the Engineers nicely pay your (4) start up.
That's where the Transmuter comes into play. {U} to make the Lotus a
non-artifact creature, {U} again to make it an artifact creature. Tap the
Lotus for {3}, use {2} to untap it and repeat as necessary.
> Until Memnarch comes out the extra mana could be useful. And there
> are likely other alternate wins that it could pull off. By the time
> Memnarch
> comes out, you likely have the mana to seize what you want and can,
> but if not, the loop would give you the boost to do so. That could
> work nice against token decks.
Now that I think about it, the Skullclamp/Nuisance Engine/Voltaic Construct
combo could benefit from the mana loop allowing me to draw as many cards as
I please.
I noticed something else that might be worth experimenting with. What about
Power Conduit and Aether Vial in this deck?
Zaxx
> That's where the Transmuter comes into play. {U} to make the Lotus a
> non-artifact creature, {U} again to make it an artifact creature. Tap
> the Lotus for {3}, use {2} to untap it and repeat as necessary.
Doh. Scratch that. I guess March of the Machines is a required piece of that
puzzle.
Sorcier
>
> Sorcier wrote:
>
> > I'm missing how you're making the Lotus into a Creature.
> > But if you can do that, the Engineers nicely pay your (4) start up.
>
> That's where the Transmuter comes into play. {U} to make the Lotus a
> non-artifact creature, {U} again to make it an artifact creature. Tap the
> Lotus for {3}, use {2} to untap it and repeat as necessary.
I'd forgotten the correct wording of the Transmuter.
Sorry. ;(
> Now that I think about it, the Skullclamp/Nuisance Engine/Voltaic Construct
> combo could benefit from the mana loop allowing me to draw as many cards as
> I please.
Hadn't really noticed the effect of the Construct on that.
I'll have to give that a try myself.
(Although I don't have the Lotus.)
> I noticed something else that might be worth experimenting with. What about
> Power Conduit and Aether Vial in this deck?
Vial looks like a winner.
Free counter every turn but possible extra creature plays.
Sorcier
>
> Zaxx wrote:
>
> > That's where the Transmuter comes into play. {U} to make the Lotus a
> > non-artifact creature, {U} again to make it an artifact creature. Tap
> > the Lotus for {3}, use {2} to untap it and repeat as necessary.
>
> Doh. Scratch that. I guess March of the Machines is a required piece of that
> puzzle.
Dang, I did read it right. ;(
Zaxx
23 Island
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Arcbound Stinger
1 Arcbound Slith
3 Vedalken Engineer
1 Neurok Transmuter
2 Rust Elemental
2 Arcbound Hybrid
2 Arcbound Crusher
1 Arcbound Reclaimer
2 Arcbound Bruiser
2 Arcbound Fiend
1 Arcbound Overseer
1 Broodstar
1 Aether Vial
2 Skullclamp
1 Nuisance Engine
2 Skeleton Shard
2 Serum Tank
1 Reshape
2 Echoing Truth
As it stands, it's basically a beatdown deck with the Arcbounds serving as
buffs for one another. I can't believe I didn't think of replacing the
Neurok Familiars with Arcbound Stingers sooner. The Nuisance Engine will
combo nicely with Skullclamp and Arcbound Crusher and the Vial will let me
drop small creatures quickly.
I do have a few doubts though. I'm still not sure what to replace the Rust
Elemental with, if anything. I considered Magnetic Flux. At the very least,
I'll sideboard the Flux. Having *all* of my creatures gain flying seems to
make for a pretty big beat stick.
While the Skeleton Shard and Arcbound Reclaimer give me three ways to
recycle my Arcbound creatures they're vulnerable to board sweepers. I'm
thinking Myr Retriever should be in here somewhere if only in the sideboard.
I'm not too comfortable with the idea of spells that cost more than {4}
unless the deck sports some form of mana acceleration. That makes the
Bruiser, Fiend and Overseer liabilities. Silver Myrs are too easy to take
out. I do have a full set of Talisman of Dominance I could swap for Islands.
Finally, I'm thinking Darksteel Citadel should also be in here somewhere
given all the destruction going on in the current format. Would you suggest
I maindeck some Citadels or sideboard them?
Sorcier
>
> Here's what it's become:
>
I'm still looking for a good substitute there. ;(
But as is, I can come pretty close to building this myself,
so hopefully I can test it out too and compare note.
(Memnarch will likely go in my version somewhere.)
Thanks for writing it up!
> I do have a few doubts though. I'm still not sure what to replace the Rust
> Elemental with, if anything.
Me either. My gut reaction is that there must be something out there
though.
I'll keep thinking and looking.
> I considered Magnetic Flux. At the very least,
> I'll sideboard the Flux. Having *all* of my creatures gain flying seems to
> make for a pretty big beat stick.
Nice.
> I'm not too comfortable with the idea of spells that cost more than {4}
> unless the deck sports some form of mana acceleration. That makes the
> Bruiser, Fiend and Overseer liabilities. Silver Myrs are too easy to take
> out. I do have a full set of Talisman of Dominance I could swap for Islands.
You do have the Engineers for accelearting artifacts, but as you said
before,
1/1's might die too easy. They haven't been targeted specifically when
I've
played the pre-con, but "better" players might see the threat in them,
especially with these artifact countere synergies added.
> Finally, I'm thinking Darksteel Citadel should also be in here somewhere
> given all the destruction going on in the current format.
Is there that much _Land_ "destruction" other than Quicksilver Fountain?
(Which won't hurt you.)
Worldslayer could be a problem, but it's hard to set up.
> Would you suggest
> I maindeck some Citadels or sideboard them?
I'd say sideboard.
I'd keep as much (U) on hand as you can.
If you come up against a land destruction deck,
swap in the Citadels from the sideboard.
Zaxx
I've been playing around with this some more. Here's what I've got:
4 Darksteel Citadel
13 Island
(17 lands)
4 Arcbound Worker
1 Arcbound Slith
4 Arcbound Stinger
4 Vedalken Engineer
2 Arcbound Crusher
2 Arcbound Hybrid
1 Arcbound Reclaimer
2 Rust Elemental
2 Arcbound Bruiser
2 Arcbound Fiend
1 Arcbound Overseer
1 Broodstar
(26 creatures)
2 Serum Tank
2 Skeleton Shard
1 Aether Vial
2 Skullclamp
4 Talisman of Dominance
2 Darksteel Ingot
1 Nuisance Engine
(14 artifacts)
2 Echoing Truth
1 Reshape
(3 spells)
Sideboard:
2 Talon of Pain
(2 artifacts)
2 Echoing Truth
3 Magnetic Flux
3 Vex
2 Second Sight
1 Thoughcast
2 Assert Authority
(13 spells)
As you can see, I dumped the Transmuter. He'd be good with Neurok Spy but
I'd need at least three of each to make the combo reliable. Instead, I
maindecked another Veldaken Engineer. With 19 artifact creatures and 14
artifacts, they're just too useful not to run four deep. If I run into quite
a bit of Engineer hate, I'll make room for some Lightning Greaves in the
sideboard.
Now I know we've been trying to get rid of the Rust Elemental but a 4/4
flyer for {4} has to have *some* kind of drawback. At least in this case I
can buff him up as a side benefit. Not to mention that the recycling aspects
of the Arcbound Reclaimer and Skeleton Shard go a long way towards making
this not so much of a problem.
You'll notice I trimmed out some Islands. The acceleration provided by the
Vedalken Engineer, Talisman of Dominance and Darksteel Ingot was just too
promising to pass up. With only two of my spells having {U}{U} in the cost,
I figured I could afford to run leaner. The Talisman of Dominance and
Darksteel Ingot also have the side effect of powering up my Arcbound Crusher
and placing another charge counter on any Serum Tanks in play.
The Darksteel Ingot and Darksteel Citadel ensure I'll still have six mana
available should I run into Akroma's Vengeance, Obliterate, Decree of
Annihilation, Choke, Boil and all the ordinary LD spells. With only the
Arcbound Overseer costing more than {6} my entire library is still playable.
The only weak spot I see here is March of the Machines.
I'm starting to rethink the Nuisance Engine. With only one, it's not very
reliable unless I Reshape for it. But then, there's only one Reshape. I'm
thinking either 2 Aether Vial or 2 Nusiance Engine. The one catch with the
vial is that it's most useful when you have a bunch of creatures with
identical mana costs. The only costs I have a lot of here is {2} and {4}.
Due to the mana acceleration, I'll be playing creatures with those costs
long before the vial has acquired that many charge counters. OTOH, with me
recycling Arcbounds I could conceivably drop them for free once I've picked
them back up.
That gives me a nice loop with which to Skullclamp Arcbound Worker or
Arcbound Stinger, buff the Crusher twice in the process (once on CIP, once
upon going to the graveyard), draw two cards, Shard it back into my hand and
drop it for free using the Aether Vial thus placing another +1/+1 on the
Crusher (you just gotta love trample).
Of course, going with the Nuisance Engine, {3} gets me two cards and a +1/+1
for my Arcbound Crusher. Which do you think is the better deal? I'm leaning
towards the Vial since I get a chump blocker out of the deal.
BTW, a great big thanks to whoever suggested the Serum Tank. It's a perfect
fit. It's especially useful when your Skullclamp has yet to make an
appearance. Once you have the clamps in play, the Serum Tank affords you yet
another drawing opportunity.
As for the sideboard, it's mainly about changing the role for {U} in the
deck. If I'm facing hordes of weenies and token, two more Echoing Truth
gives me extra bounce for the masses. Assert Authority and Vex are there to
put a crimp in the R/W control game. I'm not too thrilled about my opponent
drawing a card but it's more reliable than Mana Leak. I want to replace Vex
with Override but I don't have any right now.
Magnetic Flux will get my non-tramplers over any ground forces (a major
concren against token generating decks) while Second Sight will not only let
me stack my own deck but my opponent's as well. Talon of Pain brings
pinpoint damage to any deck and could prove most useful against weenie
decks.
So there you have it. With the two exceptions mentioned above (Vex, Nuisance
Engine v. Aether Vial), this is the deck I'll be taking to my very first
local tourney next Friday night. What do you think of it?
Sorcier
>
> As you can see, I dumped the Transmuter. He'd be good with Neurok Spy but
> I'd need at least three of each to make the combo reliable.
One reson I'm considering keeping mine is as a defense against
Disciples of the Vault. Maybe I should sideboard him.
I also thought he'd work nice with Memnarch and some artifact
stealing cards I might include or sideboard.
Main idea on the Disiple defense is Memnarch or Transmuter makes
them into Artifacts. Memnarch or other cards steal them. Transmuter
turns them to non-artifacts. Skullclamp kills them.
I'm thinking about 4 mana to kill one and draw two cards.
Sounds reasonable and will also work on other X/1's.
> Now I know we've been trying to get rid of the Rust Elemental but a 4/4
> flyer for {4} has to have *some* kind of drawback.
I'm looking at Spawning Pit and some other discarders right now.
But the Pit is the most likely to make the cut, and it's also a
counter generator!
> At least in this case I
> can buff him up as a side benefit. Not to mention that the recycling aspects
> of the Arcbound Reclaimer and Skeleton Shard go a long way towards making
> this not so much of a problem.
I don't think I have enough of these to risk using the Elemental.
And I'm likely leaving my Spire Golems in so I get my air support there.
2/4 fliers at 3 or less isn't bad.
> You'll notice I trimmed out some Islands.
That threw me at first. <g>
> The acceleration provided by the
> Vedalken Engineer, Talisman of Dominance and Darksteel Ingot was just too
> promising to pass up.
Yeah, I'm seriously looking at the Ingot, and maybe a couple Talismans.
I'll be reluctant to sacrife them but at 2 for a non-land (1) every turn
they're a good deal in a deck with this many colorless cards.
> The Talisman of Dominance and
> Darksteel Ingot also have the side effect of powering up my Arcbound Crusher
> and placing another charge counter on any Serum Tanks in play.
Another good point and it also weakens my earlier disaste for the
Darksteel Citadel, as does the lack of a need for as much (U) as I'd
origanally thought. Heh, maybe we _should_ bring back 4 Seats of
the Synod?
> The Darksteel Ingot and Darksteel Citadel ensure I'll still have six mana
> available should I run into Akroma's Vengeance, Obliterate, Decree of
> Annihilation, Choke, Boil and all the ordinary LD spells.
Your Talismans will survive pure LD also, as would Myr.
I haven't rule out Myr completely yet, but likely will.
With one important exception.
I've seen a big play finish with artifact based deck often enough
that I may include it; Myr Incubator with Coat of Arms.
Play both, make all remaining artifacts in your deck Myr, attak next
turn.
Barring a "destroy all creatures" type event, this usually works.
> With only the
> Arcbound Overseer costing more than {6} my entire library is still playable.
I was reluctant to include him because of that, but with the Engineers
it's not so bad, and he's such a perfect fit in this deck.
> I'm starting to rethink the Nuisance Engine. With only one, it's not very
> reliable unless I Reshape for it. But then, there's only one Reshape.
I was going for Engines 2 with no Reshape. Which means I acn't rely on
them, but
I see them mainly as useful to power one mini-engine rather than
essential.
Without something like Power Conduit to pull the counters off the Serum
Tank,
the Engine is really on;y giving you extra card draws and occasional
blockers.
I'm likely keeping Conduit in to use Nuisance Engine to beef Arcbounds
indirectly.
> I'm
> thinking either 2 Aether Vial or 2 Nusiance Engine. The one catch with the
> vial is that it's most useful when you have a bunch of creatures with
> identical mana costs. The only costs I have a lot of here is {2} and {4}.
Still, the Vial will give you one for free once charged up.
I'm looking at the Vial as another counter source though.
Since you aren't playing the counter flow game as heavily as I expect
to,
you may want to ditch the Vial unless the free creatures are attractive.
I could see you dropping both the Vials and Engines.
> BTW, a great big thanks to whoever suggested the Serum Tank.
Me.
I wish I remembered who first showed those tricks to me though. ;(
> It's a perfect
> fit. It's especially useful when your Skullclamp has yet to make an
> appearance. Once you have the clamps in play, the Serum Tank affords you yet
> another drawing opportunity.
I was looking at it's card draw ability as a bonus, but with this many
artifacts floating around it'll likley get used for it often.
> As for the sideboard, it's mainly about changing the role for {U} in the
> deck. If I'm facing hordes of weenies and token, two more Echoing Truth
> gives me extra bounce for the masses.
All of mine are likely going sideboard. Bring them in if I face a token
deck.
Otherwise I'm looking at theft as my main creature control.
> Magnetic Flux will get my non-tramplers over any ground forces (a major
> concren against token generating decks)
I was wondering whether to use those.
OK, sideboard material.
> Talon of Pain brings
> pinpoint damage to any deck and could prove most useful against weenie
> decks.
I was debating the Talon. I'll have to take a closer look.
> So there you have it. With the two exceptions mentioned above (Vex, Nuisance
> Engine v. Aether Vial), this is the deck I'll be taking to my very first
> local tourney next Friday night. What do you think of it?
It'll be fun and surprising at least. <g>
Looks like it _should_ grow fast.
Main problem will be if you get a slow start, I think.
If you get an average or fast start you should be easily rolling
over a lot of the opposition.
Faster decks will be a big worry.
Zaxx
> I'm thinking about 4 mana to kill one and draw two cards.
> Sounds reasonable and will also work on other X/1's.
Sounds like a plan. As I've only one copy of Memnarch, I'm going the
beatdown route. No one expects blue aggro.
> I'm looking at Spawning Pit and some other discarders right now.
> But the Pit is the most likely to make the cut, and it's also a
> counter generator!
If counters a big part of your plan, consider Coretapper.
>> At least in this case I
>> can buff him up as a side benefit. Not to mention that the recycling
>> aspects of the Arcbound Reclaimer and Skeleton Shard go a long way
>> towards making this not so much of a problem.
>
> I don't think I have enough of these to risk using the Elemental.
I can see where that might be an issue if you're not loaded with Arcbounds
or can't count on the Nuisance Engine.
> And I'm likely leaving my Spire Golems in so I get my air support
> there. 2/4 fliers at 3 or less isn't bad.
As you can see, my mana base no longer makes basic land affinity a
profitable idea. The Spire Golem would be entering somewhere around midgame.
In fact, I find the idea of basic land affinity to make for a slow creature
altogether unless you're running lots of land tutors or acceleration.
> Yeah, I'm seriously looking at the Ingot, and maybe a couple
> Talismans. I'll be reluctant to sacrife them but at 2 for a non-land
> (1) every turn they're a good deal in a deck with this many colorless
> cards.
Yep.
> Another good point and it also weakens my earlier disaste for the
> Darksteel Citadel, as does the lack of a need for as much (U) as I'd
> origanally thought. Heh, maybe we _should_ bring back 4 Seats of
> the Synod?
Not a bad idea. With the Crusher, Serum Tank and Broodstar all benefitting
from the introduction of artifacts, four more can't hurt. Although there is
Naturalize, Shatter to worry about. All of a sudden they're cheap LD spells.
Even worse would be Echoing Ruin. Hmm..... on second thought I think I'll
stick withmy current mana base.
>> With only the
>> Arcbound Overseer costing more than {6} my entire library is still
>> playable.
>
> I was reluctant to include him because of that, but with the Engineers
> it's not so bad, and he's such a perfect fit in this deck.
The one weak Arcbound is the Fiend. In the current environment, fear is not
as powerful as it once was. The Fiend enters play with the same amount of
counters as Arcbound Bruiser but the Bruiser costs one less. Eliminating the
Fiends would free up two slots I can fill with another Crusher and another
Broodstar.
> I was going for Engines 2 with no Reshape. Which means I acn't rely
> on them,
You could always Fabricate for them but Reshape's big draw is that you get
to put your tutored artifact into play immediately.
> Still, the Vial will give you one for free once charged up.
That's what I'm looking at. Too bad Dross Scorpion is so weak. It'd make a
great addition to the combo.
> I could see you dropping both the Vials and Engines.
I definitely want one or the other as the Crusher and Serum Tank buff when
an artifact comes into play. With Vial, {1}{B} gets an Arcbound Crusher
+2/+2 (CIP, Modular, CIP), I draw two cards and the original Worker or
Stinger is back on the board ready to chump block or start the cycle all
over again on my next turn.
With two Shards, you net +4/+4 for your trampler and four cards for only
{2}{B}{B}.
I think I've made my choice. ;-)
>> As for the sideboard, it's mainly about changing the role for {U} in
>> the deck. If I'm facing hordes of weenies and token, two more
>> Echoing Truth gives me extra bounce for the masses.
>
> All of mine are likely going sideboard. Bring them in if I face a
> token deck.
> Otherwise I'm looking at theft as my main creature control.
You never know when you'll want to bounce something other than a creature.
Of course, I could always maindeck Boomerang instead. I'm a little skittish
about multiple {U} in a spell cost at this point.
>> Talon of Pain brings
>> pinpoint damage to any deck and could prove most useful against
>> weenie decks.
>
> I was debating the Talon. I'll have to take a closer look.
With your focus on counters, it's a natural fit for the maindeck. Load it
with counters and pinpoint troublesome cratures off the board or go straight
to the dome.
> What do you think of it?
>
> It'll be fun and surprising at least. <g>
Like I said: no one expects blue aggro. ;-)
> Looks like it _should_ grow fast.
> Main problem will be if you get a slow start, I think.
> If you get an average or fast start you should be easily rolling
> over a lot of the opposition.
When it goes off, it goes off well. The recycling and transferrable buffs
will give a lot of trouble to folks running pinpoint removal. Board sweepers
are another issue. If I run into this often, I'll swap in some Darksteel
Brute.
> Faster decks will be a big worry.
They always are. :-)
pseudosoldier
wrote:
>Zaxx wrote:
>>
>> As you can see, I dumped the Transmuter. He'd be good with Neurok Spy but
>> I'd need at least three of each to make the combo reliable.
>
>One reson I'm considering keeping mine is as a defense against
>Disciples of the Vault. Maybe I should sideboard him.
>I also thought he'd work nice with Memnarch and some artifact
>stealing cards I might include or sideboard.
>Main idea on the Disiple defense is Memnarch or Transmuter makes
>them into Artifacts. Memnarch or other cards steal them. Transmuter
>turns them to non-artifacts. Skullclamp kills them.
>I'm thinking about 4 mana to kill one and draw two cards.
>Sounds reasonable and will also work on other X/1's.
>
I would think that you'd rather keep the Disciples around. The main
deck running them, Ravager Affinity, would then have that avenue of
winning (saccing mass artifacts to make you lose life) cut off a bit,
as they would be losing life, too...
-- pseudosoldier
Sorcier
>
> Sorcier wrote:
>
> > I'm looking at Spawning Pit and some other discarders right now.
> > But the Pit is the most likely to make the cut, and it's also a
> > counter generator!
>
> If counters a big part of your plan, consider Coretapper.
Thanks, I already was, but forgot to mention it.
I'm still paring down my wishlist pile.
> > And I'm likely leaving my Spire Golems in so I get my air support
> > there. 2/4 fliers at 3 or less isn't bad.
>
> As you can see, my mana base no longer makes basic land affinity a
> profitable idea. The Spire Golem would be entering somewhere around midgame.
> In fact, I find the idea of basic land affinity to make for a slow creature
> altogether unless you're running lots of land tutors or acceleration.
Yeah, you sold me on artifact lands late so I need to rethink the
Golems.
> > Another good point and it also weakens my earlier disaste for the
> > Darksteel Citadel, as does the lack of a need for as much (U) as I'd
> > origanally thought. Heh, maybe we _should_ bring back 4 Seats of
> > the Synod?
>
> Not a bad idea. With the Crusher, Serum Tank and Broodstar all benefitting
> from the introduction of artifacts, four more can't hurt. Although there is
> Naturalize, Shatter to worry about.
Both are likely to hunt bigger game. They shouldn't threaten your lands
unless you're drawing lands too slow (then again you aren't stocking a
lot)
or they wind up Isochron'ed or such.
> Even worse would be Echoing Ruin.
Didn't think of that one. Though it'll hit four at most and is
unlikely to get that many.
Sorcier
>
> I would think that you'd rather keep the Disciples around. The main
> deck running them, Ravager Affinity, would then have that avenue of
> winning (saccing mass artifacts to make you lose life) cut off a bit,
> as they would be losing life, too...
Plus, I'm planning on clamping my artifacts, so yeah, I should
likely keep them. Would have caught that if I'd had the card in
front of me. I was too caught up in what it could do _to_ rather
than for me.
(Geez, I'd almost consider splashing black and adding them! <g>)
pseudosoldier
wrote:
They're *huge* in tournament caliber Affinity decks. Instead of
attacking your opponent directly (or, in addition to this), you sac
artifacts to Ravager or Atog, and "go off" combo style for the win.
-- pseudosoldier
Zaxx
Darksteel Reactor?
Everyone goes with the obvious 'detonate the Reactor' combo but Serum Tank,
Sun Droplet and Talon of Pain all acquire charge counters at a much faster
rate while offering alternative uses for those counters.
Drop a Darksteel Forge (does this actually see any competitive play?) and
they're all reusable as well. Of course, Coretapper and Nuisance Engine in
the midst of all this is just downright unfair. ;-)
BTW, Myr Landshaper would work well with Memnarch.
Sorcier
>
> BTW, since you seem to be focusing on counters, have you considered
> Darksteel Reactor?
Don't have one. ;(
It would make a very nice addition though.
Might have to break my rule about not buying singles.
> Everyone goes with the obvious 'detonate the Reactor' combo but Serum Tank,
> Sun Droplet and Talon of Pain all acquire charge counters at a much faster
> rate while offering alternative uses for those counters.
As I side note I added Sun Droplet, it just seemed too obvious not to.
And I dispensed with the Talon. I don't really want to be tempeted to
_spend_ counters.
> Drop a Darksteel Forge (does this actually see any competitive play?) and
> they're all reusable as well.
Arggh, don't have that yet either! ;)
> BTW, Myr Landshaper would work well with Memnarch.
I overlooked that, but did include a Mycosynth Lattice.
I've been running my version through test runs today.
So against the Tranference deck to see how it compares
with its sire.
I was right about about bad draws being downright crippling.
I'm also finding the Nuisance Engine/Skullclamp combo to be
pulling its weight. Power Conduit is working well, and even
better when I have it and the Serum Tank out with the Engine.
Main problem against the Transference deck is that whoever
plays the Arcbound Crusher first is at a huge advantage.
This card is so key to the deck that I wish I had enough
to stock a full four. And it's making me rethink some
kind of "tutor" like Reshape. But I don't have a lot of
any of those either.
My control/theft part of the plan hasn't been coming
together either. I removed a couple cards that weren't
working and added a couple more blue theft spells, but
haven't played it out yet. The Transference's Crushers
that were doing me in in half the test runs would be nice
prey to those.
I'm also finding that with the massive card drawing I'm
getting I don't really need to go digging in my graveyard.
Which is good because I just don't have the cards to
support it.
I'll post my version after a few more test runs, including
some against other Standard decks. I'm rather curious how
it'll fare against Elvish Rage and similar where I'll really
need the theft component. And where Naturalize in tourney
deck versions will be four deep easily. I may actually want
to bring back that Talon for quick one tap kills on
Timberwatchers and such.
Overall, I really want theft going by midgame when I can
start snatching away Plat Angels and Isochrons and other
nastiness. (Lattice has the bonus of letting me use most
of what I snatch, even more so than teh Engineers do.)
I went ahead and added the Synod Seats and Citadels to
my version and they're working great so far.
Two oddities I playing with right now that didn't come up before:
Darksteel Beast and Colossus. Haven't drawn the Beast in a test
run, and haven't had a game go long enough to play the Colossus
(good excuse to drop him, but between Ingots and Engineers I
figured I be able to get him out on occasion, plus I'm running
3 Cloudposts.) Basic idea here is to arrange for my modular
counters to start winding up on indestructible creatures.
If I don't get one of those combos going soon, I'll be trimming
these two out though. I'd love to make room for some
Fireshriekers to make that Crusher really dangerous.
Zaxx
>> BTW, since you seem to be focusing on counters, have you considered
>> Darksteel Reactor?
>
> Don't have one. ;(
> It would make a very nice addition though.
> Might have to break my rule about not buying singles.
If you're prepping for tourneys, it's the most direct route. And for
specific needs, it's also quite economical. After all, what are the chances
that a $90 box of boosters is going to net you four Arcbound Ravagers? Shop
around for just the Ravagers and $90 is a lock.
> As I side note I added Sun Droplet, it just seemed too obvious not to.
> And I dispensed with the Talon. I don't really want to be tempeted to
> _spend_ counters.
You don't have to but it's nice to know you have tools to deal with annoying
creatures like Wellwisher, Forgotten Ancient and whatnot.
>> Drop a Darksteel Forge (does this actually see any competitive
>> play?) and they're all reusable as well.
>
> Arggh, don't have that yet either! ;)
{9} is no small price. Even with acceleration, you can't posibly get one of
these out before turn 5 and that's already too late against Goblins, Elves
and Affinity. The Forge strikes me as a casual card.
> I was right about about bad draws being downright crippling.
The deck I posted earlier runs nice and lean thanks to the swarm of cheap
Arcbounds and a free creature drop from turn two on (thanks to the Vial).
Even so, a slow start is a death sentence against aggro weenies.
> I'm also finding the Nuisance Engine/Skullclamp combo to be
> pulling its weight.
No doubt. {3} Tap: Draw two cards. :-) Here's a weird idea: Skullclamp +
Auriok Steelshaper. Now equipping the clamp costs {0}.
> Main problem against the Transference deck is that whoever
> plays the Arcbound Crusher first is at a huge advantage.
You got that right. The Crusher just sprouts like a weed in Standard
> This card is so key to the deck that I wish I had enough
> to stock a full four.
I'm up to three because that's all I have. But you're right: he's the
lynchpin. I'll be adding a fourth very shortly. Plus I can use the Shard to
just keep bringing him back. Scrabbling Claws and Withered Wretch are going
to be a problem though.
> And it's making me rethink some kind of "tutor" like Reshape. But I don't
have a
> lot of any of those either.
Tutoring / card draw is extremely important with the base we've set up. I
just wish I had a way to accelerate the Aether Vial.
> My control/theft part of the plan hasn't been coming
> together either. I removed a couple cards that weren't
> working and added a couple more blue theft spells, but
> haven't played it out yet. The Transference's Crushers
> that were doing me in in half the test runs would be nice
> prey to those.
The cheapest blue theft spell has a coverted mana cost of {3} and it's only
good for stealing artifacts. Beyond that, theft gets exorbitant and you'll
be needing that mana to set up your own game.
> And where Naturalize in tourney
> deck versions will be four deep easily.
What's your plan for Naturalize on a Scepter? That's a major headache for
artifact decks. I'm just gonna bounce it. That's one more Naturalize they'll
be needing to imprint. I may even get nasty and put my Echoing Truth on a
Scepter.
> I may actually want to bring back that Talon for quick one tap kills on
> Timberwatchers and such.
Kill the Wellwisher the moment she shows up. Along with Well of Lost Dreams,
you're looking at major problems if you can't get her off the board or keep
her from getting there in the first place.
> I went ahead and added the Synod Seats and Citadels to
> my version and they're working great so far.
The Citadel's a no brainer. You made some valid points about the Seat and
Echoing Ruin in one of your earlier posts so I may decide to maindeck four
of them.
> Basic idea here is to arrange for my modular
> counters to start winding up on indestructible creatures.
I've been contemplating the same thing. The one hiccup in the plan is having
to keep {3} available so you can activate the Brute in a pinch.
> I'd love to make room for some
> Fireshriekers to make that Crusher really dangerous.
Interesting... :-)
Sorcier
>
> The cheapest blue theft spell has a coverted mana cost of {3} and it's only
> good for stealing artifacts.
That's mainly what I'll be stealing though.
Thanks to Transmuter, Memnarch, or Lattice.
> > And where Naturalize in tourney
> > deck versions will be four deep easily.
>
> What's your plan for Naturalize on a Scepter? That's a major headache for
> artifact decks. I'm just gonna bounce it. That's one more Naturalize they'll
> be needing to imprint. I may even get nasty and put my Echoing Truth on a
> Scepter.
I was looking at theft, but I can't pull it often enough.
Might have to look at Truth again.
Or the Crystal Shard.
If I had my own Scepter, Truth would have easily made my first
cut with it.
> > Basic idea here is to arrange for my modular
> > counters to start winding up on indestructible creatures.
>
> I've been contemplating the same thing. The one hiccup in the plan is having
> to keep {3} available so you can activate the Brute in a pinch.
Yeah. I'm doubting the indestructibles will stay.
> > I'd love to make room for some
> > Fireshriekers to make that Crusher really dangerous.
>
> Interesting... :-)
But it's looking now like I want to drop the Shard and another
bounce into those slots. ;(
Jeff Boes
> The new "Transference" deck has a good synergy to it and it's fairly fast
> for something with a blue mana base. Darksteel Forge is an obvious
> adjustment as would be another Reshape or two.
>
> appearance at a Friday night game?
>
Perhaps Reading the Runes, instead of the other suggestion, Thoughtcast.
Gives you another outlet for sacrificing artifacts, acts like a
multiple-warhead Skullclamp ...
Jeff Boes
>
> Just thought of a weird combo for this too:
> An Indestrustible creature and Worldslayer.
Heh, I'd posted a germ of a deck idea here a few days ago: search for
"Worldslayer control deck" posted on 16 Mar 2004. No Arcbound creatures,
but the idea is a "soft lock" consisting of a Darksteel Gargoyle armed
with Worldslayer. The only way out of the lock is via a one-mana
artifact destruction spell (like Oxidize) to take out the Worldslayer.
(Obviously, if the opponent is playing Darksteel permanents, it's not a
lock.)