Subject: Re: Cleopatra descendants into medieval European
Michelle.Mu...@ccmail.team400.ie
>any traceable descendants beyond her children. When still a child, Ptolemy XIV
>Caesarion was murdered by Augustus.
That's a disappointment! Does anyone know who succeeded Cleopatra then, if not
one of her children? I don't think any of her siblings had descendants either,
did they? (since Cleopatra Major, Berenice, Ptolemy XII and Arsinoe all seem to
have died violently and without issue, leaving only Ptolemy XIII who was married
to Cleopatra herself and therefore, I think, had no issue).
thanks,
Michelle
Francisco Antonio Doria
>not
>one of her children? I don't think any of her siblings had descendants
>either,
>did they? (since Cleopatra Major, Berenice, Ptolemy XII and Arsinoe all
>seem to
>have died violently and without issue, leaving only Ptolemy XIII who was
>married
>to Cleopatra herself and therefore, I think, had no issue).
If you accept a side branch (modulo all the DFA caveats, including those by Settipani himself) then take a look at Settipani's book, or (without the notes) at the Augustan Society DFA tables.
It turns out that we are all Aunt Cleo's distant nephews. (I can't resist it: I think of Aunt Cleo ;-) and see in my mind the current favorite of Brazilian children, Tiazinha, Auntie. She dresses like someone out of a S&M fetish clothing store, mask, whip and all; she is the children's current favorite, I insist. Aunt Cleo would look like a nun next to her.)
Sorry for the off-topic comment. Back to subject: Settipani has detailed tables on the Ptolemies.
All the best, Chico
Francisco Antonio Doria
Prix Caumont-La Force 1995
(Conféderation Internationale de Généalogie et d'Héraldique.)
fad...@rio.com.br
http://www.rio-v.com/costadoria
Tels.: 021-547-5541/024-231-4133/021-9943-6968
All material posted is copyrighted. Please refer to the author to quote it.
Chris Bennett
check this quote, but it surprises me, AFAIK it is universally accepted that
Ptolemy of Mauretania was Selene's son, as I stated in my earlier posting.
But I'll chase up his arguments when I have time.
Cleopatra was succeeded by Octavian, by right of conquest.
Ptolemy "XIII" (usually called Ptolemy "XIV" these days) died in 44 BC cause
unknown and without children.
I asume "Cleopatra Major" is Cleopatra VI Tryphaena. The evidence for her
existence is questionable at best, it is most likely she is an avatar of
Ptolemy XII Aulete's wife Cleopatra V Tryphaena.
Chris
Michelle.Murphy%EIH...@ccmail.team400.ie wrote in message
<01J8Z4U9L...@kira.team400.ie>...
>>Antony Wagner's *Pedigree and Progress* does not accept that Cleopatra has
>>any traceable descendants beyond her children. When still a child, Ptolemy
XIV
>>Caesarion was murdered by Augustus.
>
>That's a disappointment! Does anyone know who succeeded Cleopatra then, if
not
>one of her children? I don't think any of her siblings had descendants
either,
>did they? (since Cleopatra Major, Berenice, Ptolemy XII and Arsinoe all
seem to
>have died violently and without issue, leaving only Ptolemy XIII who was
married
>to Cleopatra herself and therefore, I think, had no issue).
>
>thanks,
>
>Michelle
>
James P. Robinson III
As the clock struck 10:10 AM 3/18/1999 +0100,
Michelle.Murphy%EIH...@ccmail.team400.ie took pen in hand and wrote:
>>Antony Wagner's *Pedigree and Progress* does not accept that Cleopatra has
>>any traceable descendants beyond her children. When still a child, Ptolemy
>XIV
>>Caesarion was murdered by Augustus.
>
>That's a disappointment! Does anyone know who succeeded Cleopatra then, if not
>one of her children? I don't think any of her siblings had descendants either,
>did they? (since Cleopatra Major, Berenice, Ptolemy XII and Arsinoe all
seem to
>have died violently and without issue, leaving only Ptolemy XIII who was
>married
>to Cleopatra herself and therefore, I think, had no issue).
>
>thanks,
>
>Michelle
>
--
********************************************************
James P. Robinson III
jpro...@ix.netcom.com
********************************************************
James P. Robinson III
hand and wrote:
>Wagner's essay is buried in a pile of files on my floor right now so I can't
>check this quote, but it surprises me, AFAIK it is universally accepted that
>Ptolemy of Mauretania was Selene's son, as I stated in my earlier posting.
>But I'll chase up his arguments when I have time.
>
>Cleopatra was succeeded by Octavian, by right of conquest.
I do not believe Octavian/August ever became King or Pharaoh of Egypt,
although as a de facto matter he had ultimate authority over the Roman
province of Egypt as the princeps of the Roman state. As a de jure matter,
I think the province would have been considered ultimately subject to the
Senate.
Chris Bennett
king as, say, Darius. Augustus is recorded with three of the five pharaonic
titles, as are emperors as late as Antoninus Pius. The latest emperor whose
name is recorded in hieroglyphics with cartouche is Maximin Daia in the
early 4th century. See J. von Beckerath, Handbuch der aegyptischen
Konigsnamen.
The province was certainly not subject to the senate, in fact senators were
forbidden fron visiting Egypt without express imperial permission under
Augustus, and the governorship was awarded to a knight, not a senator. This
situation continued, I believe, till the time of Diocletian.
Chris
James P. Robinson III wrote in message
<4.1.199903191...@popd.ix.netcom.com>...
Chris Bennett
Your address gets bounced when I replied to yout offline mail, so I hope you
don't mind if I post this response online:
-----Original Message-----
From: Michelle.Murphy%EIH...@ccmail.team400.ie
<Michelle.Murphy%EIH...@ccmail.team400.ie>
To: cben...@adnc.com <cben...@adnc.com>
Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 5:02 AM
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: Re:Subject: Re: Cleopatra descendants into
>
>
>>Cleopatra was succeeded by Octavian, by right of conquest.
>
> What happened when Rome lost control of Egypt?
Apart from such brief interruptions as Zenobia and Chosroes II of Persia,
Rome held control till c640, when the Arab conquest took place, and Egypt
became a province of the Caliphate.
>
>
>>Ptolemy "XIII" (usually called Ptolemy "XIV" these days) died in 44 BC
cause
>>unknown and without children.
>
>>I asume "Cleopatra Major" is Cleopatra VI Tryphaena. The evidence for her
>>existence is questionable at best, it is most likely she is an avatar of
>>Ptolemy XII Aulete's wife Cleopatra V Tryphaena.
>
>
> Can I clarify this with you, Chris, as I'm getting slightly confused?
>
> Ptolemy XII was Cleopatra VII (THE Cleopatra)'s father? So Ptolemy
> XIII would have been the elder of his sons, who was married briefly to
> Cleopatra VII but died when he rebelled against her.
In your original mail you referred to the brother who went to war with
Cleopatra as Ptolemy XII, and his younger brother as Ptolemy XIII. The
usual numbering system these days has them as XIII and XIV respectively.
The numbering problem starts with Ptolemy VII, who used to be Ptolemy
Evergetes II Physkon (now Ptolemy VIII), until a French scholar c1900
persuaded the academic community that a son of Ptolemy VI had briefly become
king under the title Ptolemy Neos Philopator, who should therefore be
Ptolemy VII. This caused all the later Ptolemies to shift up by one, but
it took a while before everyone got used to the new numbering scheme. About
10 years ago another French scholar took another look at the evidence on
"Ptolemy VII" and decided we'd got it all wrong, with some pretty good
arguments IMO, but there seems to be agreement not to tinker with the
numbering again. (Thank god)
>
> Why would he be called Ptolemy XIV these days?
>
> I may have got the numbers completely wrong. The Ptolemies I'm
> enquiring about are:
>
> Ptolemy: Cleopatra VII's father. -- XII
>
> Ptolemy: The elder of Cleopatra VII's two brothers -- XIII
>
> Ptolemy: Cleopatra VII's younger brother who also married her -- XIV
>
> Ptolemy Caeserion: Cleopatra VII's elder son -- XV
>
> Ptolemy Philadelphos: Cleopatra VII's younger son (I believe she had
> another son called Alexander Helios?)
Yes. Philadelphos was never king of Egypt so is not normaly numbered but
you do sometimes see "Ptolemy XVI"
>
>
>
> So if Cleopatra VI might be confused with Ptolemy XII's wife, who is
she?
Perhaps I misspoke: there is one source that says that Ptolemy had a
daughter Cleopatra (VI) Tryphaena, but most scholars today believe that this
was a mistake, and should have referred to his wife, Cleopatra V Tryphaena
If
>Ptolemy XII was Cleopatra's father, was Cleopatra VI Cleopatra VII's mother
or
>her stepmother, her father's second wife and mother of the two Ptolemies?
>
Cleopatra VII's mother was almost certainly Cleopatra V Tryphaena. There is
no evidence that Ptolemy XII had a second wife, though there is
much speculation to this effect.
>Also, were all wives named as joint rulers in Egypt, even if not of the
Ptolemy
>line?
No, but the later Ptolemies tended to have a female partner, who was wife,
mother or (in one case) daughter, but always of the Ptolemaic line.
I do believe, however, that Cleopatra VII's mother was actually her
>father's half-sister,
Could be but the evidence is very weak. My own belief is that she was his
niece, daughter of his half-sister Berenice III and their uncle Ptolemy X,
based on congruence of chronology and circumstance.
so I think it's likely that she is the Cleopatra VI that
>you are referring to.
>
>Is there any truth in the suggestion that she was murdered?
Who knows? But personally I doubt it.
>
>thanks,
>
>Michelle
>
>
Malinda Jones
over...which was why both Caesar's and Anthony's heirs by Cleopatra had to be
killed...they would have had a strong claim on both the Egyptian and the Roman
empires.....you remember now , right?
~~~~~ <*)))>< ~~~~ <*)))>< ~~~~ <*)))>< ~~~~ <*)))>< ~~~~ <*)))>< ~~~~~~
Doug Gentile
appear able to trace a lineage from Marc Antony through Claudius through
the Britons to Constantine and from there through the Vandals into
Medieval lines. For example, below is a tree I pieced together from
other trees, but cannot attest to its veracity (I have the sources where
I got the information for anyone who would like them). I would like to
hear this group's thoughts on this possibility.
Descendants of Marcus Antonius
1 Marcus Antonius B: About 82 B.C. D: About 30 B.C.
.... +Octavia B: About 69 B.C. D: 11 B.C. m: in 40 B.C.
.2 Antonia Augusta Nickname(s): "the Younger" (Antonia Minor)
B: About 36 B.C. D: About 37 - 38 A.D.
....... +Nero Claudius Drusus Germanicus B: About 38 B.C. D: About
9 B.C.
....3 Claudius I B: August 1, 10 B.C in .Lugundum (Lyons), Gaul
(France) D: October 13, 54 A.D.
.......... +Aemilia Lepida
.......4 Genuissa Claudia of Rome D: About 50 A.D.
............. +Aviragus of the Britons
.......... 5 Meric of the Britons b: Unknown d: Abt. 125
................ +Julia of the Iceni
.............6 Eurgen of Siluria
................7 Gladys of Siluria
...................... +Lucius Mawr of Britain
...................8 Gladys
......................... +Cadvan of Combria
......................9 Strada
............................ +Coel of England Nickname(s): "Old King
Coel"
.........................10 Helena Augusta b: Abt. 248 in Drepanum,
Bithynia d: Abt. 328
............................... +Constantius I b: Abt. March 31, 250
d: July 25, 306 in Eboracum, York, England
.............................11 Constantine I Nickname(s):
"The Great" b: February 27, 287/88 in Nis, Serbia d: May 22, 337
................................... +Flavia Maxima Fausta b: Abt. 293 in
Rome d: 326 in Executed by Constantine m: 307 in Trier
................................12 Constantius II b: Abt. February
316/17 in Atles d: Abt. 340 in Aquileia, Italy
...................................... +Fausta
...................................13 Constantius III d: Abt.
421
......................................... +Galla Placidia b: Bet. 388 -
390 d: November 27, 450 in Rome
......................................14 Valentinian III b: 419
d: Abt. 455
............................................ +Licinia Eudoxia b: 422
d: Aft. 465 m: 437 in Constantinople
.........................................15 Eudoxia of Rome
............................................... +Hunneric of the Vandals
b: Unknown d: Abt. 480
............................................16 Hilderic of the
Vandals b: Unknown d: Abt. 530
...............................................17 Hildis of the
Vandals b: Abt. 572
..................................................... +Valdar Hroarsson
b: Abt. 547
..................................................18 Harold
Valdarsson
.....................................................19 Halfdan
Haroldsson
........................................................... +Maolda
.........................................................20 Ivar
Halfdansson b: Abt. 612 in Denmark
............................................................21
Aud Ivarsdottir b: Abt. 633 in Denmark d: Unknown
..................................................................
+Radbard of Russia b: Abt. 638 in Garderidge, Russia d: Unknown m:
Abt. 659
...............................................................22
Randver Radbardsson
..................................................................23
Sigurd Ring
.....................................................................24
Ragnar Lodbrock
........................................................................
... +Aslaug Sigurdsdottir
........................................................................
25 Sigurd Ragnarson Nickname(s): "Snake-in-Eye"
........................................................................
25 IvarRagnarsson Nickname(s): "The Boneless"
........................................................................
25 Halfdan Ragnarsson Nickname(s): "White Shirt"
........................................................................
25 Bjorn Ragnarson Nickname(s): "Ironside"
........................................................................
25 Ragnhildir Ragnardottir
........................................................................
25 Alof Ragnarsdottir
........................................................................
25 Ubbe Ragnarsson
.........................................15 Placida
......................................14 Justa Grata Honoria b: Bet.
416 - 417
....3 Germanicus Caesar
Thanks!
Doug
Douglas A. Gentile, Ph.D.
Director of Research
National Institute on Media and the Family
(612) 672-5437 or (888) 672-5437
e-mail: dgen...@mediafamily.org
Web: www.mediafamily.org
Lauren's Web Page: www.geocities.com/Heartland/Acres/8703
Michelle.Murphy%EIH...@ccmail.team400.ie wrote:
______________________________
KHF...@aol.com
In a message dated 3/23/1999 11:43:07 PM, mthi...@swbell.net writes:
<<Cleopatra and Anthony lost the war... to the Romans....ergo, they (the
Romans) took
over...which was why both Caesar's and Anthony's heirs by Cleopatra had to be
killed...they would have had a strong claim on both the Egyptian and the Roman
empires...>>
Of course, Mark Antony die have surviving children. Antonis Major and Antonia
Minor woule have been half sisters to the children with Cleopatra.
Descendants of Mark Antony [The Planatagenet Connection 1993]
1- Marcus Antonius, b 143 BC, d 87 BC., Roman orator and counsel, put to
death by Marius and Cinna in 87 BC.
2- Marcus Antonius, oldest son of Marcus (1), nicknamed Creticus,
commanded to clear the sea of pirates, but failed in the task because of
complicity with Sulla. He became very unpopular by plundering the
provinces.
3- Mark Antony, b 83 BC, d 30 BC, son of (2), Triumvir of Rome, m1)
Fadia, m 2) Antonia, m 3) Fulvia, issue: two daughters, m 4)
Octavia Caesar, sister of Augustus Octavius Caesar, m 4) Cleopatra.
4- Antonia major, d/o Octavia and Mark Antony, m 1) Domitius
Ahenobarbus m 2) Claudius Caesar, adopted Domitius (below) and
called him Nero Germanicus.
5- Lucius Domitius, called Nero, Emperor of Rome, s/o Antonius
major and Ahenobarbus, b AD 37, d AD 68.
4- Antonia minor, d/o Octavia and Mark Antony, famous for her
beauty, m Drusus Nero, s/o Livia and Tiberius.
5- Germanicus, s/o Drusus and Antonia, b 15 BC, d 19 AD, m
Agrippina the Elder, d/o Agrippa and Julia.
6- Nero Caesar, b 6 AD, d 30 AD, m Julia, d/o Drusus Caesar.
6- Drusus Caesar, b 7 AD, d 33 AD, m 1) Aemilia Lepida, d/o Julia
the Younger, m 2) _____.
7- 5 children, including Junia Calvina, the only one of
Augustus’ descendants left alive in Vespasian’s reign. At the
death of Nero, no male members of the dynasty survived.
6- Gaius Caesar, called Caligula, b 12 AD, d 41 AD. Emperor of
Rome. 4 marriages. No sons.
6- Agrippina the Younger, b 15 AD, d 59 AD, m 1) Gneaus
Domitius Ahenobarbus m 2) ____ m 3) Claudius.
5- Claudius, b 10 BC, d 54 AD, s/o Drusus and Antonia, Emperor of
Rome. m 1) Plautia, m 2 ) Aelia Paetina, m 3) Messalina, m 4) Agrippina
the Younger.
6- Venissa Julia (mythical) Unknown to Roman records. 6- Drusus,
died young, s/o Plautia and Claudius
6- Claudia Antonia d/o Plautia and Claudius.
6- Octavia, d/o Messalina and Claudius, b circa 40 AD, d 62 AD, m
Nero, Emperor of Rome. Murdered on Nero’s orders.
6- Britannicus, b 41 AD, d 55 AD, s/o Messalina and Claudius
5- Livia Julia (Livilla), d 3 AD, m 1) Gaius Caesar, m 2) Drusus
Caesar
4- Clodia Antony, d/o Mark Antony and Fulvia, m Augustus Octavius
Caesar (see above).
2- Gaius Antonius, held consulship with Cicero in 63 BC and appointed to
Macedonia. He made himself so detested in the province that he was recalled
to Rome and accused, in 59 BC, of taking part in the Catilinarian conspiracy
and the extortion of Macedonia. He was present in Rome in 44 BC, and was
forgiven for his crimes, as he received the position of Censor in 42 BC.
Brother of Marcus Antonius, uncle of Mark Antony.
Kenneth Harper Finton
Editor/ Publisher
THE PLANTAGENET CONNECTION
_____________________HT COMMUNICATIONS____________________
PO Box 1401 Arvada, CO 80001 USA
Voice: 303-420-4888 Fax: 303-420-4845 e-mail: K...@AOL.com
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Associated with: Thompson Starr International
[Films ... Representation ... Publishing ... Marketing]
Stewart Baldwin
>Since the topic has been broached, I have seen a number of trees that
>appear able to trace a lineage from Marc Antony through Claudius through
>the Britons to Constantine and from there through the Vandals into
>Medieval lines. For example, below is a tree I pieced together from
>other trees, but cannot attest to its veracity (I have the sources where
>I got the information for anyone who would like them). I would like to
>hear this group's thoughts on this possibility.
Your original posting had a lot of extra spaces (indentations left
over from a genealogy program?) which made it extremely difficult to
read (at least on my newsreader), so I have removed much of the
spacing in my quote below of the genealogy about which you asked, but
hopefully left everything else intact (except for a couple of
irrelevant collateral relations at the end of your posting which I
removed).
This genealogy does not stand up, and includes quite a few individuals
who never even existed, as indicated in the comments below. To date,
no reliably documented descents which go back that far have been
discovered. There are some intriguing possibilities (which all
involve numerous conjectural links) which have been discussed here
from time to time, and have usually used the acronym "DFA" ("Descent
From Antiquity"), which makes a convenient search string if you want
to dredge up old articles on the subject from Dejanews
(http://www.dejanews.com/).
>Descendants of Marcus Antonius
>
> 1 Marcus Antonius B: About 82 B.C. D: About 30 B.C.
> +Octavia B: About 69 B.C. D: 11 B.C. m: in 40 B.C.
> 2 Antonia Augusta Nickname(s): "the Younger" (Antonia Minor)
> B: About 36 B.C. D: About 37 - 38 A.D.
> +Nero Claudius Drusus Germanicus B: About 38 B.C. D: About
> 9 B.C.
> 3 Claudius I B: August 1, 10 B.C in .Lugundum (Lyons), Gaul
> (France) D: October 13, 54 A.D. +Aemilia Lepida
> 4 Genuissa Claudia of Rome D: About 50 A.D.
> +Aviragus of the Britons
We have now entered Fantasyland. Genuissa never existed, and the same
is true for the next several generations (through generation 9).
> 5 Meric of the Britons b: Unknown d: Abt. 125
> +Julia of the Iceni
> 6 Eurgen of Siluria
> 7 Gladys of Siluria
> +Lucius Mawr of Britain
> 8 Gladys
> +Cadvan of Combria
> 9 Strada
> +Coel of England Nickname(s): "Old King Coel"
The story that Constatine the Great's mother Helena was the daughter
of a British "Old King Cole" is a fabrication of the notorious
Geoffrey of Monmouth. Note the conflicting information: Why would a
daughter of a British king be born in Bithynia? The answer, of
course, is because Helena had no connection to Britain. (This Coel of
Geoffrey of Monmouth should not be confused with the Coel Hen of the
Welsh genealogies, who, if he existed at all, would have lived a
couple of centuries later.)
>10 Helena Augusta b: Abt. 248 in Drepanum,
> Bithynia d: Abt. 328
> +Constantius I b: Abt. March 31, 250
> d: July 25, 306 in Eboracum, York, England
With "generation" 10, we have now temporarily entered reality
>11 Constantine I Nickname(s): "The Great"
> b: February 27, 287/88 in Nis, Serbia
> d: May 22, 337
> +Flavia Maxima Fausta b: Abt. 293 in
> Rome d: 326 in Executed by Constantine m: 307 in Trier
>12 Constantius II b: Abt. February 316/17 in Atles
> d: Abt. 340 in Aquileia, Italy
> +Fausta
>13 Constantius III d: Abt 421
> +Galla Placidia b: Bet. 388 - 390
> d: November 27, 450 in Rome
>14 Valentinian III b: 419 d: Abt. 455
> +Licinia Eudoxia b: 422
> d: Aft. 465 m: 437 in Constantinople
>15 Eudoxia of Rome
> +Hunneric of the Vandals
>b: Unknown d: Abt. 480
>16 Hilderic of the Vandals b: Unknown d: Abt. 530
I'm not sure exactly where the genealogy becomes bad again, as I don't
have sources handy for the Roman and Vandal dynasties, but by
generation 17, we are clearly back in the land of fictional characters
who never existed, where we stay through generation 22.
>17 Hildis of the Vandals b: Abt. 572
> +Valdar Hroarsson b: Abt. 547
>18 Harold Valdarsson
>19 Halfdan Haroldsson
> +Maolda
>20 Ivar Halfdansson b: Abt. 612 in Denmark
>21 Aud Ivarsdottir b: Abt. 633 in Denmark d: Unknown
> +Radbard of Russia b: Abt. 638 in Garderidge, Russia
> d: Unknown m: Abt. 659
>22 Randver Radbardsson
>23 Sigurd Ring
Whether Sigurd Ring ever existed or not depends on how much you want
to bend the definition of the word "existed". There were two kings
Sigifridus and Anulo [whose name became mistranslated as "Ring" due to
the similarity with Latin "anulus" ("ring")] who fought each other in
812 for the Danish throne, both of whom were killed in the struggle.
Later pseudohistorians combined these failed claimants into one
person, the mythical Sigurd Ring, and turned him into a mythical
conqueror of Denmark and Sweden.
>24 Ragnar Lodbrock
> +Aslaug Sigurdsdottir
With Ragnar, it is pretty much the same situation. He was not
historical as such, but it can be plausibly suggested that he was
based at least in part on two or more individuals who MAY have been
historical.
>25 Sigurd Ragnarson Nickname(s): "Snake-in-Eye"
>25 IvarRagnarsson Nickname(s): "The Boneless"
>25 Halfdan Ragnarsson Nickname(s): "White Shirt"
>25 Bjorn Ragnarson Nickname(s): "Ironside"
>25 Ragnhildir Ragnardottir
>25 Alof Ragnarsdottir
>25 Ubbe Ragnarsson
Although there were Vikings named Sigifrid, Ivar, Halfdan, Bjorn, and
(probably) Ubbe who can be traced as the historical prototypes of the
later legendary individuals having the above names, the above cannot
be regarded as a family group, since it is virtually certain that they
were not all brothers (though some of them probably were), and none of
them is provided with an alleged parent in any source until nearly two
hundred years after their own time.
Stewart Baldwin
John Yohalem
--
John Yohalem
ench...@herodotus.com
"Opera depends on the happy fiction that feeling can be sustained over
impossibly long stretches of time." -- Joseph Kerman
Thank-you, Doug and Stewart. This is quite fascinating.
What people choose to believe happened (in the teeth of both evidence and
probability) is, in many ways, more fascinating than "factual" history.
But of course (as one points out to Creationists who have somehow wandered
into Science classrooms), this is another discipline entirely, and shouldn't
clutter things with its delicious but insane allegations.
Creative Genealogy was one of the great sciences of the Middle Ages, but
then the ancient Anglo-Saxons, Romans, Greeks and Hebrews were hardly
slouches in this area.
Jean Coeur de Lapin