Robert Bryan Lipton wrote:
> Kurt Foster wrote in message <6vdrlb$n2e$1...@news1.rmi.net>...
> >In <361A653A...@eunet.yu>, Mark Daniels said:
> >. I have heard it said that these words from a children's counting game
> >. are actually the numbers 1-4 in an ancient language of some kind and
> >. that they have survived to this day in this song.
> >
> >. Not having access to the relevant literature, I wonder if anyone could
> >. enlighten me as to the basis for this theory. Or is it just an urban
> >. legend?
> >.
> > Hmmm, never thought about that. The "Eenie meenie" is reminiscent of
> >the "Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin" from the "writing on the wall" in the Book
> >of Daniel; but the "Minie mo" isn't.
>
> Time to pull the Opies' OXFORD DICTIONARY OF NURSERY RHYMES out again.
> Remind me if suggestions are ever called for updating Mr. Israel's glorious
> FAQ to suggest adding it to the list of recommended books.
>
Well, I just don't have access to these books unfortunately. OUP are our main
competitor out here in Yugoslavia, so they wouldn't take kindly to me wandering
into their shop and leafing through their books for reference!
> The version the Opies give is
>
> Eena, meena, mina, mo,
> Catch a nigger by the toe;
> If he squeals, let him go,
> Eena, meena, mina, mo.
>
> Humph. 'hollers' scans much better, don't you think? The first and last
> lines are old British, according to the Opies and the middle two hail from
> New England, the older version being the already-mentioned 'Catch a tinker
> by the toe'.
>
D'oh! Sorry, I forgot that this was part of the above debate. I hadn't really
followed the 'nigger' thread, so I didn't make the connection. However, I hope
that this warrants a new thread.
> The rhyme is so ubiquitous, the Opies found variants in Austria, but note
> that of the first line that...
>
> "These words are a memory of ancient numerals, the same, perhaps, that gave
> birth to the East Anglian shepherd's count 'Ina, mina, tethra, methera...."
>
Right - that was the claim I was after... I find such things quite
fascinating. Perhaps THIS is where we need to look for the remnants of
proto-Indo European. I can just imagine bearded linguists (don't know why
'bearded' really, but anyway, just imagine) skulking around children's
playgrounds and flocks of sheep. That's if they don't do this already.
--
Mark Daniels
Belgrade,
Yugoslavia
Amusing, yet soul-penetratingly pertinent sig under construction.
Emailed copies welcome. Spam unwelcome. Remove XX's from email address to
respond.
I appreciate your thanks for doing the research .... certainly, it's one
of the reasons I drag my ass out of my chair, check my lobary and write.
However, the other reason I do so is to write a piece that covers the
subject well enough that the thread dies, permitting other threads of more
problematic nature, to flourish.
What I am saying is that, if you wish to thank me for my trifling bit of
research, drop me e-mail, please, and don't clutter up everyone else's
screen.
Bob
Mark Daniels wrote in message <361BC21F...@eunet.yu>...
Robert Bryan Lipton wrote:
> Dear Mark,
>
> I appreciate your thanks for doing the research .... certainly, it's one
> of the reasons I drag my ass out of my chair, check my lobary and write.
>
> However, the other reason I do so is to write a piece that covers the
> subject well enough that the thread dies, permitting other threads of more
> problematic nature, to flourish.
>
> What I am saying is that, if you wish to thank me for my trifling bit of
> research, drop me e-mail, please, and don't clutter up everyone else's
> screen.
>
> Bob
>
I did actually make an additional point, that of children's songs being a source
of interest to linguistics, (albeit in a slightly obtuse manner). This subject
may have been covered before (I'm well aware of the Ring-a-roses debate), but I
refuse to believe it has been exhausted. I'm not in the habit of posting
without the intention of provoking further debate.
So who WAS Humpty Dumpty?
Mark Daniels wrote:
> I can just imagine bearded linguists (don't know why
> 'bearded' really, but anyway, just imagine) skulking around children's
> playgrounds and flocks of sheep. That's if they don't do this already.
Hmmm...bearded fellows skulking about a children's playground would this day and
age be called something else than 'linguists' I am afraid.
Henry Wilhelm >>> henry.w @ gnwmail.com <<<
*********************************************
* I could be bounded in a nut-shell, *
* and count myself a king of infinite space,*
* were it not that I have bad dreams *
*********************************************
An egg. This one derives from a riddle.
Bob
> Robert Bryan Lipton wrote:
[snip]
> > "These words are a memory of ancient numerals, the same, perhaps, that gave
> > birth to the East Anglian shepherd's count 'Ina, mina, tethra, methera...."
> Right - that was the claim I was after... I find such things quite
> fascinating. Perhaps THIS is where we need to look for the remnants of
> proto-Indo European. I can just imagine bearded linguists (don't know why
> 'bearded' really, but anyway, just imagine) skulking around children's
> playgrounds and flocks of sheep. That's if they don't do this already.
They do: Carol Justus gave a talk on just this subject at the Medieval
Conference at Kalamazoo this year. (Not that she's bearded, mind you!)
I'll see if I can dig up my notes.
Brian M. Scott
England apparently has a long, distinguished tradition of shepherd-stalking
linguists and folklorists. The sheep-counting system I mentioned in a
different post (yain, tain, eddero, peddero...) was originally noted in:
M. Barry, "Traditional Enumeration in the North Country," _Folk Life_ 7
(1964):75-91. The linguist Richard Coates analyzed it as a case of what
he calls "analogical reformation" (what others have called "contamination")--
adjacent items in a numeral system often mutually influence each other's
phonological form (as in English four-five, or Latin quinque-quattuor).
--Ben
Ben Zimmer
Dept. of Anthropology
University of Chicago
Anne manne miene makke
Ikke tikke takke tukke
Eere vrouwe grieze knech
Ikke wikke wakke weg
(Twente)
Ane mane miene meuite
Tikke takke tieke teuite
Haer vrouw knech
Wikke wakke weg.
(Zelhem)
Anne manne miene mölle
Tikke takke tiene tölle
Heer vrouw diesnt knecht
Aa waa wie wech
(Getelo)
Anne manne miene mölle
Tikke takke toone tölle
Āmp pāmp pier swier <--- P-Celtic?
Alloo hier
The one I was familar with:
Iene miene mutte
Tien pond grutten
Tien pond kaas
Iene miene mutte is de baas
(Haarlem, also Leiden)
==
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal ~ ~
Amsterdam _____________ ~ ~
m...@wxs.nl |_____________|||
========================== Ce .sig n'est pas une .cig
This brings to my mind that the first (and practically only) bit of
Spanish I learned was the numbers from one to ten, learned as a child
from my older sister who learned them from (IIRC) a Guatemalan
immigrant in our neighborhood. It's easy for me to see how if my
profession involved lots of counting I might have amused myself by
using these exotic-sounding words, passing them on to others, and
corrupting them in the process.
Bruce Lucas
http://put.com/~lucas
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote:
> Some Dutch variants (from de Haan, "Onze Volksrijmen", 1978):
>
> Anne manne miene makke
> Ikke tikke takke tukke
> Eere vrouwe grieze knech
> Ikke wikke wakke weg
> (Twente)
>
>
Woah! Bizarre. That reminded me of a counting-out game we used to play
at primary school:
Eenie Meenie Maka-raka
Air-eye dominaka
Chika-boka lollipoppa
Om-pom push
(from which corner of my memory I dredged that out of, I have no idea)
Related...?
By the way, I'm like, REALLY sorry if all this is in some book somewhere
or has been done to death here, but this is the way new things come to
light. Some things just aren't found in books.
R. Coates, "Pragmatic Sources of Analogical Reformation," Journal of Linguistics
23 (1987), 319-340. The examples of numeral systems are part of his larger
argument that what historical linguists have called "folk etymology" or
"contamination" is proof of a psychological mechanism that links "nearness" of
meaning with "nearness" of sound. His prototypical cases are pairs of nearby
towns in England that have similar sounding names (but are not etymologically
cognate forms), e.g.:
Misterton - Mosterton
Clixby - Claxby
Postwick - Crostwick
Sproxton - Stroxton
Etc., etc. It's an interesting argument, but I wonder if his prototypical case
(nearness in a mental geography of place-names leads to phonological nearness)
occurs anywhere else in the world beyond rural England (must be all those
shepherds!).
>This brings to my mind that the first (and practically only) bit of
>Spanish I learned was the numbers from one to ten, learned as a child
>from my older sister who learned them from (IIRC) a Guatemalan
>immigrant in our neighborhood. It's easy for me to see how if my
>profession involved lots of counting I might have amused myself by
>using these exotic-sounding words, passing them on to others, and
>corrupting them in the process.
You know, "Dose-tray's catch-row," Sinkhole says...
Ross H.
>Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote:
>
>> Some Dutch variants (from de Haan, "Onze Volksrijmen", 1978):
>>
>> Anne manne miene makke
>> Ikke tikke takke tukke
>> Eere vrouwe grieze knech
>> Ikke wikke wakke weg
>> (Twente)
>>
>Woah! Bizarre. That reminded me of a counting-out game we used to play
>at primary school:
>
>Eenie Meenie Maka-raka
>Air-eye dominaka
>Chika-boka lollipoppa
>Om-pom push
>
>(from which corner of my memory I dredged that out of, I have no idea)
>
>Related...?
Sounds as if.
>By the way, I'm like, REALLY sorry if all this is in some book somewhere
>or has been done to death here, but this is the way new things come to
>light. Some things just aren't found in books.
In the 19th c. especially, there was a tendency to take these
counting rhymes very seriously indeed, and the Dutch one above was
analyzed (according to de Haan) by a dr. Jan Naarding as the chant of
rune-caster to the Mother Goddess:
Anne "ancestress" (cf. German Ahne "ancestor")
manne "of men,"
miene "to me"
makke "speak" (cf. muiken, German much(s)en)
Ikke "I"
tikke "take" (cf. English "take")
takke "the runes (tree tips)" (dial. tak "point (of lacework)")
tukke "from the branches" (Du. tak "branch")
Eere "Of a" (ODu. eene(r))
vrouwe "woman"
grieze "the grey"
knech "servant"
Ikke "I"
wikke "weigh" (Du. wikken)
wakke "and hesitate:" (Du. wak, waggelen "waddle")
weg "go away (you're free)"
BTW, there was a typo in:
>Anne manne miene mölle
>Tikke takke tiene tölle
>Heer vrouw diesnt knecht
Heer vrouw dienst knecht
>Aa waa wie wech
>(Getelo)
==
>Brian M. Scott wrote:
>> Mark Daniels wrote:
>> > Robert Bryan Lipton wrote:
>> > > "These words are a memory of ancient numerals, the same, perhaps, that gave
>> > > birth to the East Anglian shepherd's count 'Ina, mina, tethra, methera...."
>> > Right - that was the claim I was after... I find such things quite
>> > fascinating. Perhaps THIS is where we need to look for the remnants of
>> > proto-Indo European. I can just imagine bearded linguists (don't know why
>> > 'bearded' really, but anyway, just imagine) skulking around children's
>> > playgrounds and flocks of sheep. That's if they don't do this already.
>> They do: Carol Justus gave a talk on just this subject at the Medieval
>> Conference at Kalamazoo this year. (Not that she's bearded, mind you!)
>> I'll see if I can dig up my notes.
>England apparently has a long, distinguished tradition of shepherd-stalking
>linguists and folklorists. The sheep-counting system I mentioned in a
>different post (yain, tain, eddero, peddero...) was originally noted in:
>M. Barry, "Traditional Enumeration in the North Country," _Folk Life_ 7
>(1964):75-91. The linguist Richard Coates analyzed it as a case of what
>he calls "analogical reformation" (what others have called "contamination")--
>adjacent items in a numeral system often mutually influence each other's
>phonological form (as in English four-five, or Latin quinque-quattuor).
Justus had a hand-out with the following variants. I've used caps for
her boldface and underscores for her italics. The alignment is hers.
Both the boldface and the alignment have to do with her emphasis on
<lethera> and <methera>. It's been a while, but if I remember
correctly, she argued that <methera> refers not to a specific number
but to the penultimate item in one 'collection unit', whilst <lethera>
denotes the second item in a collection unit, the elements /m-/ and
/l-/ going back to PIE. Epping Forest is the odd one out, with
4-element collection units; the other versions all collect 5 at a time
(whence the odd alignment).
Epping
Forest Wensleydale Knaresbro Rathmel Welsh
---------------------------------------------------------------
in yahn yan aen yan
tin jyahn tan taen tan
tethera tether tethera tethera tethera
fethera METHER METHERA fethera pethera
mumph pimp fubs pimp
fips
LETHERA _hither_ _sittera_ _aather_ _sethera_
METHERA _LITHER_ _LITTERA_ _LA"ATHER_ _LETHERA_
_co_ _auver_ _over_ _quother_ _hovera_
dauver dorer qua"ther covers
debera dick dick dugs dik
dick
in dick yahn dick yan dick aen a dugs yan-a-dik
tin dick tyahn dick tan dick taen a dugs tan-a-dik
tether dick tethera dick tethera dugs tethera dik
tethera dick METHER dick METHERA dick fethera dugs pethera dik
LETHERA dick mimphit jiggit buon bumfit
bumfit
in a bumfit yahn a mimphit yan a jiggit aen a buon yan-a-bumfit
tyahn a mimphit tan a jiggit taen a buon tan-a-bumfit
tin a bumfit tether a tethera tethera tethera
mimphit jiggit buon bumfit
LETHERA METHER a METHERA fethera pethera
bumfit mimphit jiggit buon bumfit
METHERA jigit brumfit gunagun figgit
bumfit
gigot
Brian M. Scott
Pin marín de don Pingué,
Cúcara mácara titi rifué.
>
>
>Mark Daniels wrote:
>
>> I can just imagine bearded linguists (don't know why
>> 'bearded' really, but anyway, just imagine) skulking around children's
>> playgrounds and flocks of sheep. That's if they don't do this already.
>
>Hmmm...bearded fellows skulking about a children's playground would this day and
>age be called something else than 'linguists' I am afraid.
>
"Pedants" according to my colleagues at work, but I think they're just
trying to confuse me.
Linz
--
Oh, not really a pedant, I wouldn't say.
http://www.gofar.demon.co.uk/
Makes a change from stalking sheep.
>The sheep-counting system I mentioned in a
>different post
<...>
>Ben Zimmer
Did you invent the frame?
> BTW, there was a typo in:
>
> >Anne manne miene mölle
> >Tikke takke tiene tölle
> >Heer vrouw diesnt knecht
> Heer vrouw dienst knecht
>
> >Aa waa wie wech
> >(Getelo)
Yeah, I picked that up.
A popular Panamanian variant is quoted in Knapp's _One Potato, Two
Potato_ I've cited earlier, p. 23. The above two lines are the
beginning of a *counting-out* rhyme (see last line below):
Tin marín de dos pingüé,
Cúcara mácara títiri fué,
El hijo del rey,
Pasó por aquí,
Comiendo maní;
A todos les dió,
Menos a mí.
Palos y palos,
Para los caballos,
Tústurustus,
Para que salgas tú. <-----
--
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
Editor & Publisher, MALEDICTA
Santa Rosa, CA 95402, USA
http://www.sonic.net/maledicta/
> > The version the Opies give is
> >
> > Eena, meena, mina, mo,
> > Catch a nigger by the toe;
> > If he squeals, let him go,
> > Eena, meena, mina, mo.
The Japanese have a similar ditty, as follows:
Zui zui zukuro-bashi
Goma miso sui
Chatsubon ni owarete
Do pin shan
Nukita-a don doku sho
Tawara no nezumi ne
Kome kute chu
Chu! Chu! Chu!
Otosan ni yonderu
Okaasan ni yonderu
Iki iko nashi yo-.
Edo no mawari ni
Ochawan o kaitte
Dare?
While they sing this, children hold out their hands and the leader ...
pokes his finger into everyone's fist once each per syllable. At the
end, the person pointed... into, is "it."
Oh, well, it means roughly:
around and around, game
mouse nibbles rice
parents call, not coming.
who broke the ricebowl by the well?
One assumes there was a bit of simplification along the way.
Cheers,
DLS
--
D. Sosnoski
gol...@mindspring.com
Res ipsa loquitor.
>
> Woah! Bizarre. That reminded me of a counting-out game we used to play
> at primary school:
>
> Eenie Meenie Maka-raka
> Air-eye dominaka
> Chika-boka lollipoppa
> Om-pom push
>
> (from which corner of my memory I dredged that out of, I have no idea)
>
> Related...?
>
> By the way, I'm like, REALLY sorry if all this is in some book somewhere
> or has been done to death here, but this is the way new things come to
> light. Some things just aren't found in books.
The version I learned had 'knickerbocker' rather than 'chika-boka'. IIRC
this chant accompanied a complicated ball game with a rather vicious
throw when you got to 'push'.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for e-mail)
Laura F Spira wrote:
> Mark Daniels wrote:
> >
>
> >
> > Woah! Bizarre. That reminded me of a counting-out game we used to play
> > at primary school:
> >
> > Eenie Meenie Maka-raka
> > Air-eye dominaka
> > Chika-boka lollipoppa
> > Om-pom push
> >
> > (from which corner of my memory I dredged that out of, I have no idea)
> >
> > Related...?
> >
> > By the way, I'm like, REALLY sorry if all this is in some book somewhere
> > or has been done to death here, but this is the way new things come to
> > light. Some things just aren't found in books.
>
> The version I learned had 'knickerbocker' rather than 'chika-boka'.
Oh yes, that sounds familiar as well - I bet there are as many variations as
there are playgrounds.
> IIRC
> this chant accompanied a complicated ball game with a rather vicious
> throw when you got to 'push'.
>
That was the best bit!
Golgo13 wrote:
[SNIP]
> While they sing this, children hold out their hands and the leader ...
> pokes his finger into everyone's fist once each per syllable. At the
> end, the person pointed... into, is "it."
>
>
Oh, I thought you were going to say 'eye' not 'fist' - it sounded like the
sort of game WE used to play at school.
> > Eenie Meenie Maka-raka
> > Air-eye dominaka
> > Chika-boka lollipoppa
> > Om-pom push
> The version I learned had 'knickerbocker' rather than 'chika-boka'.
Hark! A folk etymology!
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
Oh, Joe, New-wave these.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The plural of "anecdote"
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |is not "data"
Palo Alto, CA 94304
> rossh...@my-dejanews.com (Ross Howard) writes:
>
> > On Thu, 08 Oct 1998 15:18:11 GMT, lu...@watson.ibm.com (Bruce Lucas)
> > wrote:
> >
> > >This brings to my mind that the first (and practically only) bit of
> > >Spanish I learned was the numbers from one to ten, learned as a child
> > >from my older sister who learned them from (IIRC) a Guatemalan
> > >immigrant in our neighborhood. It's easy for me to see how if my
> > >profession involved lots of counting I might have amused myself by
> > >using these exotic-sounding words, passing them on to others, and
> > >corrupting them in the process.
> >
> > You know, "Dose-tray's catch-row," Sinkhole says...
>
> Oh, Joe, New-wave these.
Whoops! Let's try
See, Eddie! Oh, Joe, new-wave these.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The misinformation that passes for
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |gospel wisdom about English usage
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |is sometimes astounding.
| Merriam-Webster's Dictionary
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | of English Usage
(650)857-7572
> Oh, I thought you were going to say 'eye' not 'fist' - it sounded like the
> sort of game WE used to play at school.
No, I didn't learn how to play Go until a bit later. In fact, an AUE
Irregular out there has a tagline about that... "Go, it's all fun and
games until someone loses an eye."*
Actually, in "zui zui zukero-bashi" the players hold out their hands as
if each is holding an ice cream cone. The "counter" pokes his finger in
the resulting depressions as he goes round. I said "fist" as shorthand.
*Go is a board game in which "eyes" are very important.
DLS (2 dan IGS)