Trad Tips (revised) (1/2)
Clyde Soles
added some more of my own. Still open for comments.
Many thanks to the following folks on the net who responded: Al Black, Everett
Fee, James Gattiker, Tom Lambert, Tom Bunch, Doug Josephson, Tom Huckin, John
Morton, Steve Shostek, Bill Gooch, Bab Harrington, David Jaffe, Cheyenne Wills,
Ken Cline, Chuck Spiekerman, Martin Leroux, Jerry Bargo, Ken Weins, Elmar
Stefke, and Brian Cairns. If I left you out, I never saw your post.
Assorted Trad Tips
Never trust your life to any one piece, no matter how good it appears.
Especially, never trust fixed anchors and old slings. Gym and sport climbers
tend to be overly reliant on equipment.
Throw in a piece occasionally even when you are on easy ground. It wont slow you
down that much and could save your butt.
Test those holds before cranking on them; unlike the gym, things pop off in the
real world, even on trade routes.
Practise down climbing whenever you can; this acquired skill is immensely
useful. Like Oddball said, you want to get out of trouble faster than you got
into it.
Put your nuts on different color slings; it helps identify individual pieces.
This can save valuable time when your arms are burning.
Mark all your gear with tape, paint, or heat shrink if you want to hang on to it
(and renew the marking from time to time). Otherwise your rack will keep getting
lighter and your various partners will somehow grow.
Make sure your slings for nuts are long enough, about 10 - 12 after tying. A
triple grapevine (recommended for spectra) eats up a lot of rope. Varying the
length slightly reduces the sleigh bell effect of nuts banging into each other.
Rack your micro wedges on one biner, your medium wireds on another, and your
large wedges on yet another. Some overlap between sets helps too, especially in
smaller sizes.
Rack from smallest pro in the front to largest in the back. It makes finding the
right piece much easier.
When learning, and on steep terrain, remove the racking biner (gate opening up
an facing in) from the rack. This makes it easier to find the right size
quickly, especially when you dont guess right the first time.
Once you have developed your eye for sizing, avoid removing the racking biner
biner from the rack (gate opening down an out). It is often faster and more
efficient to pull pieces off individually.
Use keylock biners for racking wired nuts, they make removing a piece one-handed
easier.
Learn not to drop things! Belive it or not, this is an acquired skill. Losing an
entire size range can have dire consequences in the middle of a climb and is an
expensive mistake.
Large hexes and figure-8s echo loudly when dropped everyone at the crag will
know you screwed up! Dont forget to shout Rock!
Triple up runners and rack them like quickdraws; it is much easier to retrieve
them than pulling over your head and shoulder.
Warn your partner if you arrive at a fixed nut so they wont waste a lot of time
trying to retrieve it.
In addition to the usual commands, learn to communicate with your partner
non-verbally. There will be many times it is impossible to even shout at one
another.
Dont set your pieces too hard or your second will be hating youand life. Rarely
do you need to tug hard on them repeatedly.
The corollary is dont set your pieces too losely or you will be hating yourself
(and life) when you look down to see them fall out. Learn how to use an
opposition nut to hold the a critical piece in place.
Seconds who are vertically-impaired (i.e. short) really get peaved at tall
leaders who place pro just out of reach.
It is not a bad idea for both climbers to carry a nut tool. If you dont, the
leader invariably gets three quarters up the pitch before realizing they forgot
to give the only tool to the second. Also, she who has a nut tool gets the
bootie!
Take advantage of natural pro when possible; tied off knobs, threaded slots,
slung chockstones. These can be very strong and are somehow more rewarding.
Avoid using small trees and bushes for protection or holds, this kills them.
Protect our resources or we will lose them!
Do not rappel from large trees by running the rope around them; when the rope is
pulled it cuts into the bark and eventually kills the tree. Use a natural
colored runner (for reduced visual impact) with two descending rings instead.
Only pussies chip holds or modify the rock to meet their pathetic abilities.
Beware things with sharp nasty teeth, stingers, fangs, or talons and plants with
three shiny green leaves. We share the rock with a living world that is not
always benevolent.
Learn how to properly equalize anchors. Use Yates Screamers on particularly
dicey placements.
Learn how to tie a prussik and remove yourself from the belay anchor while
holding a fallen leader.
Remember to protect traverses for your second; they are essentially leading the
climb too.
Dont get dependent on your own rack. A good trad climber should be able to pick
up just about any assortment of gear and do the route.
*** Continued in next message... ***
David Harris
>Once you have developed your eye for sizing, avoid removing the racking biner
>biner from the rack (gate opening down an out). It is often faster and more
>efficient to pull pieces off individually.
Just want to add my voice to all those who disagreed with you on this one.
If you are standing on a comfortable ledge and have two hands available for
the job, getting the right nut off the biner and into the crack is no problem.
Most of the time one of your hands will be otherwise occupied, and then the
whole job has to be done one handed.
Holding the gate open and fiddling the first nut out isn't too bad, but if the
piece you want is not the top one, it is very easy to spill a few pieces while
trying to get to the one you want.
Much easier IMO to simply remove the biner, slot the piece, put the biner and
remaining pieces back on the rack, and then sling it with a draw or biner as
usual.
D
------------------------------------
David Harris
dha...@mindlink.bc.ca
------------------------------------
TomCorcora
biner
>biner from the rack (gate opening down an out). It is often faster and
more
>efficient to pull pieces off individually.
>Just want to add my voice to all those who disagreed with you on this
one.
I can't understand why you keeo insusting on including the above, it is
much more akward and time consuming never mind any other reason.
Interesting list though, good work.
Eugene N. Miya
>Seconds who are vertically-impaired (i.e. short) really get peaved at tall
>leaders who place pro just out of reach.
Hal Murray to me:
I realized that you (me) made two moves where I only had to make one
(at a crux).
--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eug...@orville.nas.nasa.gov
Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
{uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
My 3rd favorite use of a flame thrower is "Fahrenheit 451."
A Ref: Uncommon Sense, Alan Cromer, Oxford Univ. Press, 1993.
Ray
Seconds who are vertically-impaired (i.e. short) really get peaved at tall
leaders who place pro just out of reach.
Drew? Drew? Are you out there?
I don't know how many times I have to climb past the pro
to get stable and then try to remove a nut somewhere
between my knees and ankles.
ray
--
Ray (DJ) DeGennaro II
dege...@scf.usc.edu
Elmar Stefke
David Harris <dha...@mindlink.bc.ca> wrote:
>
>Just want to add my voice to all those who disagreed with you on this one.
>
>remaining pieces back on the rack, and then sling it with a draw or biner as
>usual.
>
gear sling or harness rack isn't a good idea because:
1. you have to maneuver the nut to the gate opening (definitely not a easy
or fast process)
2. if you don't eye the right piece you have to put the original piece back
on the biner and take a new one off (more time consuming and still not easy)
Considering that all the trads who responded to this post felt pretty much
the same way (I didn't run across a single post with a supporting comment
for Clyde's method), I feel the beginning trad climber would be ill informed
by taking the piece of the biner (with the biner still on the rack). Note:
this has nothing to do with experience or lack thereof...
E.Stefke
Bruce Hildenbrand
OK. I will respond and say that I have been climbing for over 20 years and
I use the method of only taking the correct piece off the racking biner
(AKA what Clyde recommends).
I carry size 1-9 wired rocks and have the 1-3,4-6 and 7-9 racked on biners
meaning 3 wired stoppers per biner. In my aforementioned 20 years of climbing,
I have never dropped a wire nut off a biner while trying to remove the
correct size.
It used to be considered good form to be able to guess the correct nut size
first time, in fact, among the best Yosemite climbers of the 70's it was
almost a point of pride. I once remember Spencer Lennard coming back to
Camp 4 after making the second ascent of a gripping 5.11c(which was about
the upper limit in 1976) shaking his head in dissapointment. He'd flashed
the route, but had mis-guessed one nut placement!
Bruce Hildenbrand
Cheyenne Wills
>In article <00121...@nile.com> Clyde...@nile.com (Clyde Soles) writes:
>
>
>>Once you have developed your eye for sizing, avoid removing the racking biner
>>biner from the rack (gate opening down an out). It is often faster and more
>>efficient to pull pieces off individually.
>
>Just want to add my voice to all those who disagreed with you on this one.
>
>If you are standing on a comfortable ledge and have two hands available for
>the job, getting the right nut off the biner and into the crack is no problem.
>Most of the time one of your hands will be otherwise occupied, and then the
>whole job has to be done one handed.
>
>Holding the gate open and fiddling the first nut out isn't too bad, but if the
>piece you want is not the top one, it is very easy to spill a few pieces while
>trying to get to the one you want.
>
>Much easier IMO to simply remove the biner, slot the piece, put the biner and
>remaining pieces back on the rack, and then sling it with a draw or biner as
>usual.
>
>D
>
In addition, there is the possiblity that you mis-sized the placement,
and need a different nut. Back to the rack. If you
a) take the entire biner you have the selection right there and
you can visually "compare" the placement with what you have
in hand. It is also a good idea to mix sizes on the biner.
I might have a couple of RPs on the same biner that has
upto a #5 stopper. This way also I don't need to really
"hunt" for a piece while its on the rack.
b) If you are working with a "blind" placement, you might need
to try several different pieces.
c) If you need to make an multi-piece placement you don't have
to keep going back to the rack.
As I stated earlier, I have probably dropped more pieces by not
taking the biner off the rack.
Cheyenne
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Rich Beaubien
In the old days.....It used to be a challenge among climbers to remove the
single nut that you needed from the biner and slot it correctly the first time.
As time passed......we learned that there are some good reasons to take the
whole damm biner of nuts and place the piece.
The weight of the other nuts puts the the biner and nut end in a good position
to allow easy clipping of the sling and biners. The other thing is that the
wire won't fall into a thin, vertical crack placement, where you'll have to
spend time digging it out.
I still find personal satisfaction in placing the correct nut on the first
shot. It's the clip that's a lot easier.
Climb on
-------------------------------------
Rich Beaubien
Rich...@tiac.net
71121...@compuserve.com
Bob Breivogel
>E.Stefke
Well, I'll say that I always leave the biner on the rack and remove the
individual nut. Takes a bit of practice (to manuever the gate and pull off just
the desired nut). Pulling off the entire biner runs the risk of dropping
it and all the gear on it, not a very nice thing to do. Plus, trying to
place a nut with all the other ones dangling in front is a real bother.
One has to be a good judge of what size you will need, of course, which
takes experience.
Bob Breivogel
Eric Breitenberger
>Bruce Hildenbrand <bhi...@stelvio.eng.sun.com> wrote:
>>OK. I will respond and say that I have been climbing for over 20 years and
>>I use the method of only taking the correct piece off the racking biner
I bet you've never once grabbed the wrong piece, right? ;^>
Personally, (although I've only been climbing 15 years or so),
I sometimes grab one piece and sometimes the whole 'biner full
of wires.
If it's a good, bomber placement where any size will do, I just
pull my best guess off the rack and slap it in. Sometimes I pull the
nut off the 'biner, clip it to the quickdraw, and then make the
placement.
If its a tricky placement, I pull the whole 'biner off, so that if
my first guess is wrong, it's easy to try the next size. I've never
done it myself, but I once watched a hung-over partner on Carol's
Crack at the Tower drop the 'biner with *all* the right size wires
on it. He had to downclimb and lower off, under incredible verbal abuse!
Cheers, Eric ...
I wish I was climbing instead of typing ...
Nancy Jensen
>It is not a bad idea for both climbers to carry a nut tool. If you dont, the
>leader invariably gets three quarters up the pitch before realizing they forgot
>to give the only tool to the second. Also, she who has a nut tool gets the
>bootie!
And when you place that piece that your second won't possibly be able
to remove without the nut tool that you are carrying, leave the nut
tool hanging from the piece.
Hal Murray
|> ... (I didn't run across a single post with a supporting comment
|> for Clyde's method) ...
Just for the record, I usually remove one nut at a time.
Yes, sometimes it's a pain to get the one you want. Yes, I drop one every now and then.
I've never dropped the whole collection though.
It helps a lot not to have too many nuts on a biner.
I guess I'll try removing the whole biner sometime. (When I'm near the ground or
on a big ledge.)
Here's one to think about...
I carry my big hexes on long slings, over the shoulder. It isn't wonderful for
hard climbs when you want a short sling. It's great for long climbs when you have
nice cracks and want to drop something in quickly.
I have old hexes with big holes so I can thread them with 1 inch webbing. (I bought
a spare set when they changed to smaller holes.)
Elmar Stefke
>I use the method of only taking the correct piece off the racking biner
^^^^ ^^^^^^^
You mean you've never taken off the wrong piece? I find that hard to believe!
It would be nice to do that, but in reality that's not the case, even for
those who've been climbing for a long time (as suggested in your own example).
Even those of us who don't use Clyde's method strive to take the correct nut
of the racking biner. The difference is that when we take the nut off the
biner it is the correct nut (has been sloted and set).
Note furthermore that just because you've used that method for twenty years
it is not necessarily a good method. I still feel that it is faster to grab
the whole biner, especially if you carry more than three nuts on a biner
(6-8 sm., 5-6 med., 3-5 lg.), have different length wires or slung chocks
mixed with wires, and misjudged your first attempt.
>first time, in fact, among the best Yosemite climbers of the 70's it was
>almost a point of pride. I once remember Spencer Lennard coming back to
>Camp 4 after making the second ascent of a gripping 5.11c(which was about
>the upper limit in 1976) shaking his head in dissapointment. He'd flashed
>the route, but had mis-guessed one nut placement!
>
I think that pride still exists today, indeed it is part of being an
efficient trad climber. Some of us climb on nuts only every once in a
while...
11c? Crack-A-Go-Go? Nah, that must have had a second ascent before '76...
Was he using Clyde's method? ;-)
E.Stefke
lam...@uni2a.unige.ch
>>>remaining pieces back on the rack, and then sling it with a draw or biner as
>>>usual.
>>the same way (I didn't run across a single post with a supporting comment
>>for Clyde's method)
>
> I use the method of only taking the correct piece off the racking biner
> (AKA what Clyde recommends).
>
About the same number of years of experience (though without ever getting
especially good, so...).
Anyway, I tend to agree with Bruce. It used to piss me off when I didn't
get the right nut the first time. I have been climbing a lot less trad
routes in the past few years, though, and now find that my
eye is bad, and I prefer to take the set of nuts off the biner and
do it that way. When my eye is good, I usually
just to grab the nut I need and put it in. I don't think Clyde's advice
is bad at all.
Tom
Richard Chambers
-<cut>-
>Anyway, I tend to agree with Bruce. It used to piss me off when I didn't
>get the right nut the first time. I have been climbing a lot less trad
>routes in the past few years, though, and now find that my
>eye is bad, and I prefer to take the set of nuts off the biner and
>do it that way. When my eye is good, I usually
>just to grab the nut I need and put it in. I don't think Clyde's advice
>is bad at all.
I think people are also missing the point, and that is, that not only is
it easier to get the right size, but it is also much easier to set the
nut, with more to grab onto, and easier to take the biner off of a nut
that is set, than a loose nut, hooked on a biner.. I would rather take
the risk of dropping a whole set, (which I have never seen done, nor
done, than to take the risk of falling before I can get some pro in,
because I wasn't able to get the biner off fast, or the crack was to
deep, and I could not set the nut right..
hasta
--
cha...@netcom.com
2/1.9999999999123 = 1 New Math, Availible NOW, ONLY with Intel's new Penitum
John Morton
Hal Murray <mur...@src.dec.com> wrote:
>In article <3eg0t2$o...@agate.berkeley.edu>, el...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Elmar Stefke) writes:
>
>
>|> ... (I didn't run across a single post with a supporting comment
>|> for Clyde's method) ...
>
>Just for the record, I usually remove one nut at a time.
And just for the record, me too. I started doing it when I got my first
rack of nuts, just to train my eye to evaluate cracks carefully. I won't
claim to be real good at it now, but I think I've learned a lot by
trying very hard to find a place for the item I've chosen :-).
John Morton Mechanical Engineering Machine Shop
jmo...@euler.me.berkeley.edu University of California at Berkeley
Greg Opland
>I once remember Spencer Lennard coming back to
>Camp 4 after making the second ascent of a gripping 5.11c(which was about
>the upper limit in 1976) shaking his head in dissapointment. He'd flashed
>the route, but had mis-guessed one nut placement!
Can you say "anal retentive" ? :-)
---
\ Greg Opland
o/\_ Commercial Flight Systems Group
<\__,\ Honeywell, Phoenix, AZ
">. |
` .-| E-Mail : "opl...@saifr00.ateng.az.honeywell.com"
. \
. \
.-| "There's two kinds of climbers...smart ones, and
. | dead ones." - Don Whillans
Rene Tio
>
>>Once you have developed your eye for sizing, avoid removing the racking biner
>>biner from the rack (gate opening down an out). It is often faster and more
>>efficient to pull pieces off individually.
>
>piece you want is not the top one, it is very easy to spill a few pieces while
>trying to get to the one you want.
Agreed. I've often found that the nuts on the 'biner end up a tangled
mess and that at least several are hanging perilously close to the gate.
Not having used or practiced this technique I'd probably end up dropping
a few, which I guess is better than dropping a 'biner full, but then
again I've only ever done that once and luckily on a short climb.
To guard against dropping I've heard of racking the odd and even sizes
on separate 'biners, but since I'm not known for a light rack nor a good
eye I simply carry selected doubles on a separate 'biner.
I would advise against carrying more that 10 per biner, by the way,
simply because they end up in that tangled mess just waiting for the
gate to open.
--
__ Mail
/_/\| Rene Tio <e-mail: t...@bnr.ca, phone: 613/763-8867>
/ \/o Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa
|__|/
TomCorcora
>Well, I'll say that I always leave the biner on the rack and remove the
>individual nut. Takes a bit of practice (to manuever the gate and pull
off just
>the desired nut). Pulling off the entire biner runs the risk of dropping
>it and all the gear on it, not a very nice thing to do. Plus, trying to
>place a nut with all the other ones dangling in front is a real bother.
>One has to be a good judge of what size you will need, of course, which
>takes experience.
>Richard Chambers writes
>I think people are also missing the point, and that is, that not only is
>it easier to get the right size, but it is also much easier to set the
>nut, with more to grab onto, and easier to take the biner off of a nut
>that is set, than a loose nut, hooked on a biner.. I would rather take
>the risk of dropping a whole set, (which I have never seen done, nor
>done, than to take the risk of falling before I can get some pro in,
>because I wasn't able to get the biner off fast, or the crack was to
>deep, and I could not set the nut right..
Let's set this straight before we all start repeating ourselves again.
Just because you have doing something for 15/20 years does not mean what
you are doing is good/bad. When I started climbing I learned from some
people who had been climbing up to 30 years and I have to say some of the
things they told me to do were insane.
I have always taken of the whole biner - dropping this is just not an
issue unless you are a naturally clumsy person - this does not still take
away from the satisfaction of picking the right nut first time. If you
take off the nut singly you run the risk of the wire dropping into the
crack (as someone mentioned) and having to now get your nutkey to fish for
it. Trying to place a nut with other ones dangling is no bother at all and
like Richard (and many others have said) says above it actually makes
things easier.
From reading this thread the majority agree with this but a significant
amount prefer taking off the individual nut. If you haven't experimented
with taking of the biner [3/4 biners should be enough to carry your nuts
(micros, small/medium and large) for this method, though this way of
carrying would be very figety - try it on a pumpy placement - for removing
an individual nut] full of nuts try it and vice versa.
Perhaps we can get a report back from others trying the alternative method
again/for the first time.
In the meantime Clyde I would suggest when you are compiling the next
update of your excellent list you include both alternatives but without
the badge of experience on the single nut method and listing the pros and
cons of each. I would also suggest categorizing the list if you have time.
Later,
Tom.
Bruce Hildenbrand
>In article <1995Jan6.150327.1@ugun2a> lam...@uni2a.unige.ch writes:
>-<cut>-
>>Anyway, I tend to agree with Bruce. It used to piss me off when I didn't
>>get the right nut the first time. I have been climbing a lot less trad
>>routes in the past few years, though, and now find that my
>>eye is bad, and I prefer to take the set of nuts off the biner and
>>do it that way. When my eye is good, I usually
>>just to grab the nut I need and put it in. I don't think Clyde's advice
>>is bad at all.
>-<cut>-
>
>I think people are also missing the point, and that is, that not only is
>it easier to get the right size, but it is also much easier to set the
>nut, with more to grab onto, and easier to take the biner off of a nut
>that is set, than a loose nut, hooked on a biner..
Look, some of us, for whatever reason, seem to be especially good
at getting the correct nut off the biner without much hassle. Does
that mean you should adopt the same method? No, of course not. It just
means that there is more than one way to do things, find one that works
for you particluar ability level and use it.
Bruce Hildenbrand
Bruce Hildenbrand
>Let's set this straight before we all start repeating ourselves again.
>Just because you have doing something for 15/20 years does not mean what
>you are doing is good/bad. When I started climbing I learned from some
>people who had been climbing up to 30 years and I have to say some of the
>things they told me to do were insane.
>
>I have always taken of the whole biner - dropping this is just not an
>issue unless you are a naturally clumsy person - this does not still take
>away from the satisfaction of picking the right nut first time. If you
>take off the nut singly you run the risk of the wire dropping into the
>crack (as someone mentioned) and having to now get your nutkey to fish for
>it. Trying to place a nut with other ones dangling is no bother at all and
>like Richard (and many others have said) says above it actually makes
>things easier.
>
>From reading this thread the majority agree with this but a significant
>amount prefer taking off the individual nut. If you haven't experimented
>with taking of the biner [3/4 biners should be enough to carry your nuts
>(micros, small/medium and large) for this method, though this way of
>carrying would be very figety - try it on a pumpy placement - for removing
>an individual nut] full of nuts try it and vice versa.
>Perhaps we can get a report back from others trying the alternative method
>again/for the first time.
One thing those of us who have been climbing for 20(twenty) years or
more can attest to is the need to be able to get a nut in fast. We have
been climbing before spring loaded camming devices when all you had
for serious Valley cracks was a rack of 10 hexes and 8 stoppers. Getting
the correct nut first time was incredibly important mainly because you
had minimal size overlap and your last piece was usually at least 20
feet below you.
So, before anyone goes preaching the *truth* just let me say that the
guys who were pushing the limits in the 70's that I climbed with in the
Valley all used the "take the nut off the rack", not, take the whole biner
off the rack. Why, because they were good enough to get the correct
nut the overwhelming majority of the time and they were also good
enough to be able to place the single nut without the *aid*(I still
don't understand this point) of having all the nuts on the same carabiner
to weight it down.
Again, it is different strokes for different folks, there is no one method
that is *correct*. Your mileage may vary and personally, I prefer to take
the single nut off the rack.
Bruce Hildenbrand
Peter Ruben
discussion of whether to remove the nut from the carabiner before
or after slotting is this:
If you are in a tenuous position with manky holds and are worried about
falling, if you place the nut still attached to the `biner (with all the
other similar-range nuts also still on the `biner), you can always clip
the rope into the nut-carrying `biner for instant pro. Then, you can clip
the quickdraw and accompanying `biner, clip the rope to that and then
remove the original `biner with all the other nuts. I've done this.
It works.
Sure it's great when you can eyeball the placement and know which piece
to use right away. But I've been wrong more times than I care to remember.
So I go for the "remove the `biner from the rack" philosophy. And so have
most of my partners.
--
Peter Ruben
pe...@wana.pbrc.hawaii.edu
Bob Harrington
bhi...@stelvio.eng.sun.com (Bruce Hildenbrand) writes:
>Look, some of us, for whatever reason, seem to be especially good
>at getting the correct nut off the biner without much hassle. Does
>that mean you should adopt the same method? No, of course not. It just
>means that there is more than one way to do things, find one that works
>for you particluar ability level and use it.
Ah, get off your horse, Bruce.
In twenty years of climbing you must have come across a few opportunities
to improve and refine the way you climb. That's what happened to me: I
used to use the old 'one nut off the rack' technique that you're advocating,
until one day, I saw someone using the whole biner method with such
efficiency that I thought I should try it too. We were climbing a route
on Fairview as a party of four, I was on the upper rope, and Louise Shepard
on the lower rope was leading the same pitches I was, so I had a great view
down at her as she lead up to my belays. She was impressive to watch --
not only was it a lesson in precision movement, but she used the 'whole
biner off the rack' technique with such quickness and efficiency, that
even though I'd never seen it before, I knew that was what I would do from
then on.
Anyway, you're right -- find a technique that works for you. But to
characterize the 'whole biner off the rack' method as being most suitable
for unskilled inexperienced climbers is wrong. On the contrary, I think
a lot of people who use the 'one nut' method just don't realize there's a
more efficient way. I used the 'one nut at a time' technique for several
years, but then switched, and I learned it from a very able climber.
Obviously, YMMV.
Bob
Jeff Elison
: One thing those of us who have been climbing for 20(twenty) years or
: more can attest to is the need to be able to get a nut in fast. We have
: been climbing before spring loaded camming devices when all you had
: for serious Valley cracks was a rack of 10 hexes and 8 stoppers.
^^^^^^^^^^
Maybe that's why it was easy for us to pick the size and get it off easily.
We only had 8 to choose from and probably never had more than 3 per biner!!!
These days we have all kinds of micro-nuts.
Mort
Lowell Skoog
>...the guys who were pushing the limits in the 70's that I climbed with
>in the Valley all used the "take the nut off the rack", not, take the
>whole biner off the rack.
I'm gonna have to practice this more, I guess. When I climb in the
Cascades, I usually take the whole biner off the rack. I slot the
smallest piece, give it a pull and whoops, I guess that block is loose.
So I slot the next bigger piece, give it a pull and hey, it stuck.
Bombproof. Clip in and off we go.
Just kidding.
Sort of.
--Lowell Skoog
Seattle, Washington USA
Adam Greenwood
: Look, some of us, for whatever reason, seem to be especially good
: at getting the correct nut off the biner without much hassle. Does
: that mean you should adopt the same method? No, of course not. It just
: means that there is more than one way to do things, find one that works
: for you particluar ability level and use it.
:
: Bruce Hildenbrand
Hold on! I was going to stay out of this discussion, but I have to object
to what you're implying. I think the posts in this thread have proved that
plenty of good, experienced climbers take the whole biner off, and find
it the best way. I don't think that saying that method is only for
inexperienced climbers or those who can't judge nut size is going to
wash around here...
Keep it clean,
Adam.
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Anthony R Bubb
and have alot of my short slings pre-set with 2 biners on them, so once the
nut is placed, all I have to do is unclip the rest of the nuts, clip the
sling, clip the rope, and go. No hastling with 'spare biners'.
How was everyone's Xmas climbing????
Should I bother to post a trip report?
-T.
Anthony R Bubb
Lance Blumenthal
BB> the individual nut. Takes a bit of practice (to manuever the gate and
BB> pull off just the desired nut). Pulling off the entire biner runs the
BB> risk of dropping it and all the gear on it, not a very nice thing to
BB> do. Plus, trying to place a nut with all the other ones dangling in
BB> front is a real bother. One has to be a good judge of what size you
BB> will need, of course, which takes experience.
It seems to me, ( I know next to nothing about different styles of gear
placing ) that the biggest reason quoted for taking off individual
pieces is the risk of losing gear.
Surely an extremely easy way to keep your gear is to take off the biner,
but fasten it to your harness _before_ the climb...
That way if you drop it, you just grab it and try again.
Cheers.
Lance.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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Magnus Homann
Anthony> How was everyone's Xmas climbing????
Not much, just two weeks of French limestone... A bit too cold, though!
:-)
Homann
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Magnus Homann Email: d0a...@dtek.chalmers.se
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Brian Cairns
TomCorcora <tomco...@aol.com> wrote:
>>Bob Breivogel writes:
>
>>Well, I'll say that I always leave the biner on the rack and remove the
>>individual nut.
>>............................................. I would rather take
>>the risk of dropping a whole set, (which I have never seen done, nor
>>done, than to take the risk of falling before I can get some pro in,
>>because I wasn't able to get the biner off fast
I'm sure someone else has mentioned it but, for speed in nut placements
keylock biners a la Petzl Spirit are very nice thankyou very much.
Brian
Scooter
>I am not saying that I am a better climber than anybody else, just
>that some of these techniques take practise and a certain ability
>level that might be lacking based on some of the responses(like the
>one above that advocates yanking on nuts really hard to set them --
>good nut placements don't require this kind of effort to keep them
>in place).
>Bruce Hildenbrand
The type of rock can also make a difference in how hard you want to yank on
your nut placements. I live in Oregon and take pride in the fact that
whoever cleans for me rarely needs a nut tool if I am on granite or basalt.
On all the other rock around here, like Smith and the crumbly volcanoes, I
yank on my nut placements for all I'm worth. It is extremely difficult to
determine the integrity of the rock here.
SCOOTER
Richard Levy
>>Well, when I learned to climb we carried a pocket full of small rocks and
>>wedged them in the crack for pro, and we placed them at least 50 feet
>>apart. ;-) ;-) ;-)
>You had small rocks? LUXURY. We had small bits of dust, and made
>webbing out of own hair at each placement.
>Oh yeah, we used to bivy in a lake.
We used to DREAM about a bivy in a lake
Charles Foster
Yeah, we used to have to bivy in creeks. You'd bounce downstream during
the night and have to hike back up the next morning.
Rene Tio
Well when I was young we'd have sleep in an outhouse, wake up at 3 in
the morning---half an hour before we went to bed---lick the outhouse
clean with our tongues, and our leader would beat us with a biner full
of large hexes before making us solo 12 5.14's ON-SIGHT.
And you tell that to them young sport climbers nowadays, they won't
believe you!
jwe...@mac.cc.macalstr.edu
> In article <3f4g8j$j...@venice.sedd.trw.com>,
> Charles Foster <Charles...@trw.com> wrote:
>>
>>
> just to be allowed the LUXERY of getting to bivy in the creek. And forget
> about those rocks or little pieces of dust for pro... No... If our rope,
> which we made 'urselves by braiding the hair that fell out of our heads,
> I might add, was going to be used, we'd have to de-louse it first. But
> we couldn't. So we'd just have to pull 'ur rotten teeth out of our mouth
> an' leave that in the cracks as pro, and just pretend that we wer' tied in...
>
> You were in the lab of LUXERY, I say.
>
At least you had SOMETHING! We would PRETEND to have pro, when we were actually
climbing completely naked in the snow! We'd cut a hole in the ice on a FROZEN
lake and jump in to stay warm when we bivied! And all those punk sport climbers
like you would come and pull our hair out in the night to make their sissy
ropes from!