Redesign of Python site
rt lange
dont know whether this is the official resdesign or just a proposal;
but the mockups look very nice.
http://www.pollenation.net/journal/index.php?p=37&c=1
main page mockup:
http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python-main.html
interior page:
http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python-interior.html
Aahz
rt lange <white...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>came across this page searching feedster.
>dont know whether this is the official resdesign or just a proposal;
>but the mockups look very nice.
Currently just a proposal. If you care about this subject, subscribe to
the mailing list at
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-redesign
--
Aahz (aa...@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
This is Python. We don't care much about theory, except where it intersects
with useful practice. --Aahz
Michael Geary
the worst typography I've seen in a long time--it's just totally
unacceptable. I left detailed comments on the site mentioned below, and I
guess I should make some noise on the appropriate mailing lists too.
I just hope it's not too late to head off this train wreck of a redesign.
<sigh>
-Mike
Martin Maney
> came across this page searching feedster.
> dont know whether this is the official resdesign or just a proposal;
> but the mockups look very nice.
They look very nice if you're just taking in the view: they look like
crap if you want to actually read the content. I've posted a more
detailed complaint there, but in brief "I say it's spinach..."
--
There's one way to find out if a man is honest: ask him;
if he says yes, you know he's crooked. -- Twain
Michael Geary
> They look very nice if you're just taking in the view: they look like
> crap if you want to actually read the content. I've posted a more
> detailed complaint there, but in brief "I say it's spinach..."
Hey, I *like* spinach. :-)
But I'm glad I'm not the only one who is dismayed by the unreadable text in
this redesign. I got a chuckle out of your "getting just the right shade of
gray" and posted a follow-up with some more contrast measurements:
http://www.pollenation.net/journal/index.php?p=37&c=1
-Mike
Terry Reedy
"rt lange" <white...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns93EEDC144D362w...@216.77.188.17...
> came across this page searching feedster.
> dont know whether this is the official resdesign or just a proposal;
> but the mockups look very nice.
YUCK< YUCK< YUCK.
> http://www.pollenation.net/journal/index.php?p=37&c=1
>
> main page mockup:
> http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python-main.html
The old site is very readable. Using IE6, I need a magnifying glass
to read this page. This is done in the arrogant style of 'we know
better than you what type size you should have'. Also known as the
'control the user experience' school. Awful. For me, one of the
worse pages I have ever seen. Anti-Pythonic.
> interior page:
> http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python-interior.html
Only slightly better. The low contrast gray-on-gray comments page is
also barely readable. (Others reported the same.) For my
less-than-perfect 50+ year-old eyes, it is physically the WORST
comments page I have ever seen. It is a case study in
anti-accessibility design. The person responsible should not touch
our site.
Terry J. Reedy
Terry J. Reedy
only slightly better.
Terry Reedy
"Aahz" <aa...@pythoncraft.com> wrote in message
news:bjebpo$h85$1...@panix3.panix.com...
> Currently just a proposal.
To me, the the purpose of the Python site is to convey information to
lots of different programmers. It should therefore be physically
readable by as many people as possible. and not just 20-30 year olds
with 20-20 vision.
The current site is, for me, one of the most readable sites aronnd.
The text colors work and it lets Internet Explorer adjust the text
size.
The pollenation site is one of the worst I have seen. The mockup page
has teeny type that IE will not enlarge. (Telling me to use another
browser is besides the point. Lots of people will continue to visit
with IE even if I do switch.) The comments page has barely readable
dark-brown gray type on a lighter brown-gray background.. These pages
should only be used as examples of what not to do and how not to spoil
what we already have.
> If you care about this subject, subscribe to the mailing list at
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-redesign
I care that the site remain physically readable and that it remain a
vehicle for information rather than childish egos. If you are
subscribed and could convey this concern, I would appreciate it. I
otherwise do not have too much concern about particulars and therefore
not much to contribute.
Terry J. Reedy
Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters
|To me, the the purpose of the Python site is to convey information to
|lots of different programmers. It should therefore be physically
|readable by as many people as possible. and not just 20-30 year olds
|with 20-20 vision.
I completely agree with most posters on the demo webpage redesign. The
fonts are horribly, unreadably small. And the whole is cluttered, busy,
and difficult to get visually oriented to. As others observed, the
low-contrast colors make the small fonts EVEN MORE difficult to read.
Yours, Lulu...
--
Keeping medicines from the bloodstreams of the sick; food from the bellies
of the hungry; books from the hands of the uneducated; technology from the
underdeveloped; and putting advocates of freedom in prisons. Intellectual
property is to the 21st century what the slave trade was to the 16th.
John Roth
I have to agree with the other posters on this thread. I certainly
would not want to read it for very long. I suppose I could ignore
the cute graphics that take too long to download since this is a
marketing oriented design, but the fonts and lack of contrast
are a show-stopper.
Whoever did this design should read at least one of the
books on horrible web page designs.
John Roth
Stephan Diehl
>
> The current site is, for me, one of the most readable sites aronnd.
> The text colors work and it lets Internet Explorer adjust the text
> size.
>
> The pollenation site is one of the worst I have seen. The mockup page
> has teeny type that IE will not enlarge. (Telling me to use another
> browser is besides the point. Lots of people will continue to visit
> with IE even if I do switch.) The comments page has barely readable
> dark-brown gray type on a lighter brown-gray background.. These pages
> should only be used as examples of what not to do and how not to spoil
> what we already have.
It is absolutely beyond me, how IE should display the mockpage any
differently than other browsers.
On Mozilla, the page loads as:
<body>
<img src="python-web6.png" />
</body>
Stephan
Tim Parkin
> YUCK< YUCK< YUCK.
> <snip>
> The pollenation site is one of the worst I have seen. The mockup page
> has teeny type that IE will not enlarge.
> I care that the site remain physically readable and that it remain a
> vehicle for information rather than childish egos.
> Using IE6, I need a magnifying glass
> to read this page. This is done in the arrogant style of 'we know
> better than you what type size you should have'. Also known as the
> 'control the user experience' school. Awful. For me, one of the
> worse pages I have ever seen. Anti-Pythonic.
>
> > interior page:
> also barely readable. (Others reported the same.) For my
> less-than-perfect 50+ year-old eyes, it is physically the WORST
> comments page I have ever seen. It is a case study in
> anti-accessibility design. The person responsible should not touch
> our site.
Perhaps the people who have commented on the site should realise it's a
proposal and a work in progress. As constructive comments go the only
feedback I have gathered is that the fonts are too small and the
contrast is
a little low. I've adjusted contrast on key elements and also increased
the
font size. These pages are here :
http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-main-2.html
http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-interior-2.html
also bearing in mind that the html page will be accessible and hence
allow
text resizing here is a sample of +1 text size.
http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-main-2larger.html
http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-interior-2larger.html
Also, Terry, the design was an 'image', a 'mockup', a 'png' to be
specific,
it did not dictate font size. As far as accessibility is concerned, the
only
problem was the contrast and the font size both of which I've changed as
I
agree they were too low and too small respectively.
Although I agree that the font size should be bigger, the current site
is
not an exemplar of accessibility. The following example taken from the
interior page I have shown.The first is in comparison with my original
design, the second show a comparison with the amendments showing normal
and
+1 font sizing. (the text on my samples may benefit from increasing the
line
height using css)
http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-text-comparison-new.gif
http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-text-comparison.gif
As a side note, I haven't been to any school of 'control the user
experience'. Furthermore I think making comments such as accusing me of
having a 'childish ego' and being 'arrogant' are IMO extremely
disrespectful
and I would appreciate an apology. I am quite hurt and dissapointed to
see
such coments on what I had considered a respectable forum for discussion
although I'm sure they are not representative.
Tim Parkin
Terry:
Tim Parkin
John Roth
"Stephan Diehl" <stepha...@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:bjf60f$iqc$07$1...@news.t-online.com...
It loads the same on IE. The problem that Terry is complaining
about results from it being a mockup: you're displaying a PNG, so it's
understandable that attempts to resize the type or change the
foreground or background colors won't work.
John Roth
>
> Stephan
>
Tim Parkin
>consider using an automated webpage checker such as the one at
>
> http://validator.w3.org/
>
>That validator does checks on webpages and reports on the pages
>"conformance to W3C Recommendations and other standards."
>
>-Jim Rutledge
IT'S AN IMAGE!!!!! (aargh!!!) ;-)
James P. Rutledge
Cousin Stanley
As an alternative to fixed font sizes,
you might consider Any Size Design ....
http://allmyfaqs.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?AnySizeDesign
--
Cousin Stanley
Human Being
Phoenix, Arizona
Jeff Hinrichs
"Tim Parkin" <tim.p...@pollenationinternet.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.106293499...@python.org...
[...snip...]
> Perhaps the people who have commented on the site should realise it's a
> proposal and a work in progress. As constructive comments go the only
> feedback I have gathered is that the fonts are too small and the
> contrast is
> a little low. I've adjusted contrast on key elements and also increased
> the
> font size. These pages are here :
[...snip...]
I agree that the python.org site could use a face-lift, however, my concern
with the design presented is along the lines of page size and/or browser
compatibility. If you design via CSS using too many of the newer features
some older browsers will have problems rendering, if you don't use CSS for
that layout then you'll be using too many graphics. You should keep in mind
the fact that Python is used internationally. So bandwidth, browser
compatibility and internationalization are all very valid concerns.
If the redesign limits the number of people who can access it's information
or hinders their access to the same then I would be (-1) on the effort.
Remember, that the most popular and highly used sites, i.e. google and
yahoo, are quite boring in a design sense but are off the chart for
usability and accessibility. It's the content and the accessibilty to that
content that has made them so popular. I would vote to emulate these
attributes in any python website redesign.
- Jeff
Peter Hansen
>
> As a side note, I haven't been to any school of 'control the user
> experience'. Furthermore I think making comments such as accusing me of
> having a 'childish ego' and being 'arrogant' are IMO extremely
> disrespectful and I would appreciate an apology. I am quite hurt and
> dissapointed to see such coments on what I had considered a respectable
> forum for discussion although I'm sure they are not representative.
On behalf of those with the nasty fingers today, I apologize. Tim,
they must have missed the relatively clear warnings that these
are *mockups*, and posted for discussion purposes. I agree also
that harsh public criticism without constructive comments is
wholly unwarranted, and out of order around here, not to mention
(thankfully) rather atypical.
Heck, I *have* read several books on horrible web page design, and
have a background that includes a fair bit of typography and related
study and work, and I didn't think the pages were bad. I'm a
little stunned by the hyperbolic comments.
Maybe the pages aren't felt to be appropriate for *Python*'s web
site, or maybe on certain screens the colours or sizes don't look
quite right, but at least somebody is trying something(*), and
I hope you'll be able to rise above the negativism and stick it out
long enough to find any comments which truly merit consideration.
-Peter
(*) Personally, I never thought the existing site was a big problem,
but then I just view the web as a simple way to search for text
and I still use Netscape 4.7 much of the time, so I'm obviously not
the target for these improvements...
Tim Parkin
> [...snip...]
> I agree that the python.org site could use a face-lift, however, my
> concern with the design presented is along the lines of page size
and/or
> browser compatibility. If you design via CSS using too many of the
newer
> features some older browsers will have problems rendering, if you
don't
> use CSS for that layout then you'll be using too many graphics. You
> should keep in mind the fact that Python is used internationally.
> So bandwidth, browser compatibility and internationalization are all
> very valid concerns.
>
> If the redesign limits the number of people who can access it's
> information or hinders their access to the same then I would be (-1)
> on the effort. Remember, that the most popular and highly used sites,
> i.e. google and yahoo, are quite boring in a design sense but are off
> the chart for usability and accessibility. It's the content and the
> accessibilty to that content that has made them so popular. I would
> vote to emulate these attributes in any python website redesign.
Although it is true that a lot of css 'hacks' prohibit the viewing of
websites in older browsers, this is by no means a rule. One of the prime
considerations in the redesign and a very early discussion was about
accessibility. As far as we discussed, the site would be as accessibile
as possible whilst not having to work to the lowest common denominator.
It is perfectly possible to create designs that work quite well in older
browsers but without some of the decorative/style elements whilst
allowing more modern browsers to use the facilities for which the w3c
have worked so hard to create.
The main culprit in limiting the use of these standards is Netscape 4.
As long as the website renders in such a way as to provide all of the
functionality of the site then it is a general consensus that this would
be adequate. (for instance, the netscape version of the redesign might
lose some of the menu item box surround, the curved line, the boxes
etc).
As for bandwidth, the use of css designs (and I hasten to add, not
necessarily table-less designs) can reduce bandwidth incredibly. The
current site is a very respectable 22k and I would look to getting the
whole of the new design in at around 30k (for home page, graphics can
be made 20k without significant loss) and considerably less for
interior pages as the only graphics will have been cached, around
18k or maybe less.
For Google, I agree it's very usable but it also only has one main
purpose (a search box and few links). The Python site has to satisfy
many purposes, some of which act as almost contradictory to what
developers may wish for. I hope I've reached a compromise as the main
page will not be the one most used by developers and will be the one
of most imortance to IT decision makers.
For Yahoo, however, I think it's an absolute mess and is widely used
as an example of a badly designed site as far as usability is
concerned (I refer to more recent yahoo designs). For accessibility,
well, it takes 71 cursor movements to get to the 'Internet' category.
Hope this lays a few of your concerns to rest
Tim Parkin
Lawrence Oluyede
> That validator does checks on webpages and reports on the pages
> "conformance to W3C Recommendations and other standards."
Right, I also suggest you all to use the new version of
the validator which is more "human friendly":
Zeldman's post about the new version:
http://zeldman.com/daily/0803a.shtml#validator
--
Lawrence "Rhymes" Oluyede
http://loluyede.blogspot.com
rhy...@NOSPAMmyself.com
John Hall
wrote:
>Zeldman's post about the new version:
>http://zeldman.com/daily/0803a.shtml#validator
When I view _this_ site in IE6, it has low-contrast text in a small
size, which "view|text size" cannot change.
--
John W Hall <wweexxss...@telus.net>
Cochrane, Alberta, Canada.
"Helping People Prosper in the Information Age"
Aahz
Terry Reedy <tjr...@udel.edu> wrote:
>
>I care that the site remain physically readable and that it remain
>a vehicle for information rather than childish egos. If you are
>subscribed and could convey this concern, I would appreciate it. I
>otherwise do not have too much concern about particulars and therefore
>not much to contribute.
Speaking as the champion of Lynx, I absolutely agree. ;-) Don't worry,
I'll veto anything that doesn't have excellent readability, though I
don't know to what extent I personally will check against browsers other
than Lynx and Opera.
Terry Reedy
> Speaking as the champion of Lynx, I absolutely agree. ;-) Don't
worry,
> I'll veto anything that doesn't have excellent readability, though I
> don't know to what extent I personally will check against browsers
other
> than Lynx and Opera.
Email me a URL of a serious proposal and I will view with IE and reply
with comment re readability. Or just post and let several people
test.
Terry J. Reedy
Tim Parkin
> When I view _this_ site in IE6, it has low-contrast text in a small
> size, which "view|text size" cannot change.
Did I mention it was an image?
Tim
Tim Parkin
Sheila King
<tim.p...@pollenationinternet.com> wrote in comp.lang.python in article
<mailman.106293499...@python.org>:
> Perhaps the people who have commented on the site should realise it's a
> proposal and a work in progress. As constructive comments go the only
> feedback I have gathered is that the fonts are too small and the
> contrast is
> a little low. I've adjusted contrast on key elements and also increased
> the
> font size. These pages are here :
>
> http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-main-2.html
> http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-interior-2.html
>
> also bearing in mind that the html page will be accessible and hence
> allow
> text resizing here is a sample of +1 text size.
>
> http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-main-2larger.html
> http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-interior-2larger.html
My suggestions:
Go with the +1 font size as the default. The tinier font is nice for
fitting lots of data into a page, but not so good for readability.
Also, on the content pages put more white space between lines (i.e. the
vertical number of pixels between the bottom of one line and the top of the
next).
--
Sheila King
http://www.thinkspot.net/sheila/
http://www.k12groups.org/
Aahz
It will likely be that the top candidates get posted to c.l.py.announce.
Anton Vredegoor
If you're planning to score any success in the open source community
you should stop admitting mistakes and stop defending against false
accusations. Only yesterday I posted some code with an obvious
superflous construct in it, but rather than reply to my own post I
would wait and give usenets selfpurging system a chance to correct it.
Remember there's no method to get good information that functions as
swift as posting false information (even if noone replies to it).
Anton
Terry Reedy
retract and/or apologize.
I did not notice that the demo fromt page is merely a dead image. I
was mislead by the word 'mock-up'. To me, a mock-up page would have
real html, even if filled with dummy text and stub links. While a
mock-up airplane does not fly , it is a real 3-d object, not an image.
In any case, the page looks enough like many live pages I have visited
(usually corporation front pages) that I was fooled.
The comments page *is* live, not an image. It was also unusually
painful and difficult for me to read.
I usually don't care too much what people do with their pages. If I
can't read it, I move on to one of the millions of others vying for my
attention. However, python.org is one I visit a lot (top 5, surely)
and I really care about being able to continue reading it.
Perhaps Python needs two front pages or even two sites. One for the
IT manager types that you seem to be aiming at, who would be impressed
by the corporate look that tends to depress me, and one for
programmers just looking for info. The current site, perhaps with
more tweeks, is pretty good for the latter but not, I would agree, for
the former.
Terry J. Reedy
Tim Parkin
> retract and/or apologize.
for Python aswell.
> Perhaps Python needs two front pages or even two sites. One for the
> IT manager types that you seem to be aiming at, who would be impressed
> by the corporate look that tends to depress me, and one for
> programmers just looking for info.
My general intention was to create a developer oriented homepage for
people to bookmark in addition to the main www.python.org homepage.
Whatever domain this is under (dev.python.org, home.python.org, etc)
the main page really has to appeal to suits, senior software engineers,
VP's if it is to increase it's serious adoption in industry. If this
means a slight compromise in terms of what existing users of the site
want (in this case the slight compromise is a more 'glitzy' home page
and possibly alternative place to bookmark) then I personally think
it's worth it. I normally bookmark the docs page and let the python
blogging community/rss feeds fill me in on everything else.
Also don't forget there are a lot of people coming from 'commercial'
langauges. When they get to the Python site, they judge it by it's
appearance. If they are used to a professional designed marketing
presentation then they will react negatively to a design that clashes
with this.
This discussion has had many man days committed to it in
marketing-python and we've generally reached a good consensus.
> The comments page *is* live, not an image. It was also unusually
> painful and difficult for me to read.
> I usually don't care too much what people do with their pages. If I
> can't read it, I move on to one of the millions of others vying for my
> attention. However, python.org is one I visit a lot (top 5, surely)
> and I really care about being able to continue reading it.
Apologies if you had problems but, as I've said, I don't really have
time to apply lots of work to my home page. It's a sign of my
commitment to Python that I've been working for 8 weeks on it
whilst my own site has been like you see it.
Tim Parkin
Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters
|text resizing here is a sample of +1 text size.
|http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-main-2larger.html
|http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-interior-2larger.html
Yeah... this moves it from truly awful to merely bad. So that's a good
step. Even so, the lines of text are squashed together vertically in an
awkward way that makes reading difficult. I don't even really know how
that effect was achieved (or in what browser)... is there a CSS
attribute for "really small vertical spacing"?
In my experience, good pages remain good even in the complete absence of
their CSS stylesheet. Well, and CERTAINLY good pages do not embed
ad-hoc <font> tags all over them, but I don't think the redesign demo
did that. While I'm only guessing, this is a page that would fare
poorly with the CSS dropped, and with user-specified fonts and colors
specfied.
The problem is that it is WAY over-designed. It looks like something
you'd design for a magazine, not for the web, with many browsers
possible. Parkins, or whoever, has a certain browser and screen size,
and probably took out a ruler to align everything properly on that
unique combination. But on my screen, there is a gaping wasted space on
the right edge. Why not put the "news and announcements" over on the
right edge, using as much space as is available, instead of squashing
things into fixed sized boxes? "Features" could then flexibly fill the
middle section, scrolling down as far as is needed for the window size
and font of a reader.
That said, I -DO- like the look of the left navigation buttons. They
could use more contrast still, but the light 3-D effect is good, and the
subsections below an "opened" button is visually clear. The roundish,
almost OpenLook-like, pane/box frames are fine. I kinda like the
fingerprint icon, or whatever that is meant to be (two snakes?). And
having a search tool at top seems useful. It's just hard to get past
the font disaster (and the goofy, oversized, photos).
Yours, Lulu...
--
mertz@ | The specter of free information is haunting the `Net! All the
gnosis | powers of IP- and crypto-tyranny have entered into an unholy
.cx | alliance...ideas have nothing to lose but their chains. Unite
| against "intellectual property" and anti-privacy regimes!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fernando Perez
> Perhaps the people who have commented on the site should realise it's a
> proposal and a work in progress. As constructive comments go the only
> feedback I have gathered is that the fonts are too small and the
> contrast is
> a little low. I've adjusted contrast on key elements and also increased
> the
> font size. These pages are here :
>
> http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-main-2.html
> http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-interior-2.html
A few suggestions:
- several (including myself) were thrown off-course by the fact that the posted
'site' was really just a screenshot, not really a live mockup (the word mockup
tends to be used for junk-filled, but otherwise structurally valid sites rather
than a graphical screenshot). I suggest you make an actual html mockup so that
everyone can actually test how fonts scale in their own browsers. Viewing
_any_ screenshot in my laptop's 1600x1200 screen is painful, because the fonts
are microscopic. But a real html (even if the text it's filled with is junk),
I can judge: I have my font sizes set in mozilla for readability, and it will
be immediately obvious whether there are layout assumptions in the site which
break at these resolutions.
I am sure you'll get far better feedback with such a mockup site being
accessible for the community to view.
- I'm not sure I fall for the double-colored 'python' word. The two tones
generate a mental split 'py-thon', which is, at least to me, rather unpleasant.
Keep in mind that many things in the python community have a py pre/post-pended
which would be more reasonable to break: pyexpect, scipy, numpy,... In all
those cases, the separated 'py' tends to associate the 'python' part with the
rest (expect, scientific computing, numerical work, etc).
But 'thon' is nothing by itself, so the split is useless, and creates an
artificial an unnecessary disruption in the reading flow. It feels like a
clear case of graphical glitz done for its own sake, not at the service of
function.
Ant that is the ONE principle that the site should respect: ANY graphical
enhancement should always serve, never sacrifice, function.
- Contrast: even the newer screenshots feel very low contrast. Blue on grey
isn't particularly readable. But perhaps when I view the real html with normal
font sizes, it will look better. That's why you really need to post a readable
html site, not a png: it's almost impossible for anyone but you to properly
judge the site with graphical screenshots.
- More content: why limit the front page to have so little in it? It feels
like it was designed to fit 100% into an 800x600 window. I personally feel
that a techincal website is ok with having the front page include some more
stuff further down. I can use my scroll wheel to go down, but I hate having to
click for separate pages for everything. I know it's a fine line, and you
don't want the main page to be overly long, but I feel that the current mockup
is unnecessarily short.
And if you feel like people are being overly harsh, don't worry. It's usenet
after all :) But also keep in mind that you're proposing touching the _main_
python.org website, so don't expect the entire community just to go with
whatever you propose. In case you are new to this environment, go read some of
the discussions on PEP-308 for a feel of how hot things can get when you want
to touch core things.
In the end, this is actually a good thing: it means that any idea which finally
survives the beating will be pretty good. Think of a very harsh, very
darwinian selection system :)
Best regards, and good luck with the work.
Fernando.
Aahz
Terry Reedy <tjr...@udel.edu> wrote:
>
>Perhaps Python needs two front pages or even two sites. One for the
>IT manager types that you seem to be aiming at, who would be impressed
>by the corporate look that tends to depress me, and one for
>programmers just looking for info. The current site, perhaps with
>more tweeks, is pretty good for the latter but not, I would agree, for
>the former.
I'm leaning toward vetoing any such plan. One problem with the Perl
community is that it's not clear which web site to use for different
purposes -- I think we should keep www.python.org as the universal URL.
That said, there likely will be a subsection of python.org that is aimed
at managers, with a more designed look and more graphics; someone trying
to convince a specific manager could point zir into the subsection.
Aahz
Fernando Perez <fper...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>And if you feel like people are being overly harsh, don't worry. It's
>usenet after all :)
Well, no, it's not Usenet, not in the sense you mean. Someone dragged a
discussion from a mailing list here, and I think that beating Tim up in
public is unfair. We haven't even completely settled on a set of design
goals yet; Tim's mockup was strictly intended to help advance the
discussion.
I'll repeat what I said, if you want to be involved with the redesign
effort, join http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-redesign
David Eppstein
there's something else that I think is very important in the current
python.org front page and missing from the proposed redesign: the text
"Welcome to the official website for the Python language."
If one looks at the proposed redesign, it is difficult to tell whether
Python is an application, a magazine, a business consulting partnership,
or what. It is also unclear whether the site is run by the same people
responsible for Python, whatever Python is. Certainly "official web
site for programming language" is not the first thing that springs to
mind.
--
David Eppstein http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/
Univ. of California, Irvine, School of Information & Computer Science
Fernando Perez
> In article <bjfvnh$mkb$1...@peabody.colorado.edu>,
> Fernando Perez <fper...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>And if you feel like people are being overly harsh, don't worry. It's
>>usenet after all :)
>
> Well, no, it's not Usenet, not in the sense you mean. Someone dragged a
> discussion from a mailing list here, and I think that beating Tim up in
> public is unfair.
FWIW, I made a point of NOT beating anyone up, and tried to offer specific, IMHO
constructive comments.
And since the starting thread of the discussion was a post by Tim himself, that
seemed a perfectly fair thing to do. It may have been dragged here from
elsewhere, but the first 'Comments ...' post was by Tim, and he's been
responding in the discussion actively. As long as the comments were civil
(which I actively tried to do, after seeing some of the tone of the discussion
elsewhere), I didn't see any problem there.
Cheers,
f
Fernando Perez
> I'm leaning toward vetoing any such plan. One problem with the Perl
> community is that it's not clear which web site to use for different
> purposes -- I think we should keep www.python.org as the universal URL.
>
> That said, there likely will be a subsection of python.org that is aimed
> at managers, with a more designed look and more graphics; someone trying
> to convince a specific manager could point zir into the subsection.
+1
I totally agree with Aahz here.
We are, after all, talking about a _programming language_ here. So how hard is
it to tell a PHB 'go to www.python.org/corporate'? This leaves the rest of
people who might think that to learn about the python programming language,
www.python.org would be an ok starting point, happy.
A basic rule of design should always be: a default (www.python.org) value
should satisfy the _majority_ of usage cases (not those with the most
money/corporate power/whatever). Since the majority of visitors to the site
can arguably be thought to be developers, _that_ is the audience the default
url should target. A visible 'corporate' link, along with a single-level url
(www.python.org/corporate, perhaps even aliased to corporate.python.org) can
satisfy the PHBs with minimal effort.
I'm happy to see the main site improve, but NEVER at the cost of making me, a
developer, a second-class citizen there. Any graphical/functional
enhancements to the main site are welcome, as long as they don't detract from
its core function: being the Python _Programming language_'s home.
Cheers,
f.
Erik Max Francis
> Perhaps the people who have commented on the site should realise it's
> a
> proposal and a work in progress.
Could someone remind me what need there is for a redesign in the first
place? Of all the Python-related efforts that one could put time into,
this seems like one of the least useful.
--
Erik Max Francis && m...@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
__ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE
/ \ Then you give me that Judas Kiss / Could you hurt me more than this
\__/ Lamya
Aahz
David Eppstein <epps...@ics.uci.edu> wrote:
>
>Lots of people have been rightly jumping all over the design. But
>there's something else that I think is very important in the current
>python.org front page and missing from the proposed redesign: the text
>"Welcome to the official website for the Python language."
Don't worry -- some people think that's redundant, but Guido has
Prounounced that it will stay.
Tim Parkin
>Yeah... this moves it from truly awful to merely bad. So that's a good
>step. Even so, the lines of text are squashed together vertically in
an
>awkward way that makes reading difficult. I don't even really know how
>that effect was achieved (or in what browser)... is there a CSS
>attribute for "really small vertical spacing"?
1) it's an image
2) as an image created in fireworks, I expected line spacing to honor
html spacing. It doesn't however so I've fixed it.
>In my experience, good pages remain good even in the complete absence
>of
>their CSS stylesheet. Well, and CERTAINLY good pages do not embed
>ad-hoc <font> tags all over them, but I don't think the redesign demo
>did that. While I'm only guessing, this is a page that would fare
>poorly with the CSS dropped, and with user-specified fonts and colors
>specfied.
1) it's an image
2) images don't have font tags
3) haven't got a clue what you mean about it fairing badly with css
dropped and fonts and colours changed. If by this you mean rendered in
text mode then the design would be a lot better than the existing site
as IT'S AN IMAGE you don't really have any way of knowing.
>The problem is that it is WAY over-designed. It looks like something
>you'd design for a magazine, not for the web, with many browsers
>possible. Parkins, or whoever, has a certain browser and screen size,
>and probably took out a ruler to align everything properly on that
>unique combination.
1) My name is parkin.
2) The site is designed to reflect the expectations of commercial
customers who are used to the likes of peoplesoft and atg, etc. also
it's designed to project an image to set Python alongside existing
enterprise programming langagues (apologies for using the e word)
3) it's an image. Images don't stretch. If I make it any bigger
it would not fit in 800 wide browsers. A lot of designers make a choice
between fixed width and fluid. I would probably choose fluid for all
but the home page however I'm looking at fluid techniques for that too.
Tim
A.M. Kuchling
Erik Max Francis <m...@alcyone.com> wrote:
> Could someone remind me what need there is for a redesign in the first
> place? Of all the Python-related efforts that one could put time into,
Because the current site is unattractive, jumbled, hard to navigate, and
sucks dead bunnies through a straw?
--amk
Aahz
>place? Of all the Python-related efforts that one could put time into,
>this seems like one of the least useful.
AMK's comment is a bit overdone, so here's something more understated:
The current website has a number of navigation, structural, and content
flaws resulting from the fact that it has grown organically for roughly
a decade. It is also harder to maintain than we'd prefer. Finally, it
looks a bit dated.
While we are making some progress at removing cruft, most of us involved
in the work agree that a full-scale redesign would be a Good Idea.
Part of the impetus for doing the work is to streamline the site to make
it easier for Python newcomers (and people investigating Python for
themselves or their organizations) to find the information they want or
need.
Dave Kuhlman
> Lots of people have been rightly jumping all over the design. But
> there's something else that I think is very important in the
> current python.org front page and missing from the proposed
> redesign: the text "Welcome to the official website for the Python
> language."
>
> If one looks at the proposed redesign, it is difficult to tell
> whether Python is an application, a magazine, a business
> consulting partnership,
> or what. It is also unclear whether the site is run by the same
> people
> responsible for Python, whatever Python is. Certainly "official
> web site for programming language" is not the first thing that
> springs to mind.
Actually, from its appearance, the new design looks like it is
trying to sell me something. "Advert filters up!" It makes me
suspicious, skeptical, and cynical, as all advertising does.
I don't mean to criticize the work that's being done for the new
site. It looks like excellent work. I do mean to suggest that
perhaps its style is not what I want for the "official Python
site", and, in particular, not for the first/main page.
The new design looks great. It looks exceptionally well done.
But, instead of the official Python Web site, it would be better
suited for "The Python Advisory Board" or for "The Friends of
Python" or for whatever organization has the mission of promoting
and lobbying for Python.
Maybe if the new main page (python-main-2.html) were at the end of
a link labelled "Python advocacy" ...
And Petter Hansen wrote in a separate message:
> (*) Personally, I never thought the existing site was a big
problem,
> but then I just view the web as a simple way to search for text
> and I still use Netscape 4.7 much of the time, so I'm obviously
not
> the target for these improvements...
I think I'm in this school. I go to the Web in general and to the
Python site in particular for content, not for graphics. I think
the new design is pretty and very attractive, perhaps *too* pretty
and attractive. When I send or refer someone to a site like that,
I'd feel I'd have to warn them: "It looks like promotional
material, but don't be put off; there is really good content there
if you look for it.
I suppose you could brush me off as old fashioned and "old
school". I certainly am. I like text and content not graphics,
colors, and visual appeal. But, then I'd argue that text and
cognitive content are what's appropriate for the official Python
site.
The current main page at www.python.org is a portal and a
directory. It helps me find things that are related to Python,
things that help me with Python, things that I feel will help
others to use Python. That's why in much of the Python
documentation I write, the current www.python.org is a "must
reference". I would not feel the same about a site that contains
endorsements from famous people, even nerdy famous people that I
admire.
I would like to request that the new site, whatever its style,
give me as much help as possible finding what I need in order to
use Python. I'd want the site designer to look at every piece of
that page and ask: Will this help someone find what they need
about Python?
This new design looks great to me. But, it is not the official
Python Web site. It is the site for some company trying to sell
Python services or Python tools or something.
Look at the Google directory page (http://www.google.com/dirhp).
(It's actually built on the ODP: Open Directory Project, dmoz.org).
You'll see maximum nutrition and minimum calories. It's very
plain, and very popular. People know it will help them find what
they want, and they trust it, at least I do.
On the other hand, having several pages that show the kind of
graphical interface that can be constructed with wxPython, pygtk,
etc seems like a good idea to me.
Hope I haven't been uncivil. I apologize in advance, if I seem to
have been. And, thanks much for the work that the new site
designers have done.
Dave
--
Dave Kuhlman
http://www.rexx.com/~dkuhlman
dkuh...@rexx.com
Robin Becker
<white...@yahoo.com> writes
>came across this page searching feedster.
>dont know whether this is the official resdesign or just a proposal;
>but the mockups look very nice.
>
>http://www.pollenation.net/journal/index.php?p=37&c=1
>
>main page mockup:
>http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python-main.html
>
>interior page:
>http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python-interior.html
It looks nice, but is really slow or is that just the demo site? Using
those big images really slows things down for me at least.
--
Robin Becker
Tim Parkin
> Don't worry -- some people think that's redundant, but Guido has
> Prounounced that it will stay.
far as I am aware this was never mentioned to anyone working on the
design effort.
Tim
Tim Parkin
> That said, there likely will be a subsection of python.org that is
> aimed at managers, with a more designed look and more graphics;
> someone trying to convince a specific manager could point zir into
> the subsection.
Fernando:
> A visible 'corporate' link, along with a single-level url
> www.python.org/corporate, perhaps even aliased to
> corporate.python.org) can satisfy the PHBs with minimal effort.
Please don't consider this, the majority of corporate users will find
the site themselves or through links in articles magazines, etc. so
they will still get first impressions from the main home page. If
anything we could provide a developer portal page which may be used
as a bookmark. Personally I think this is a bad idea also. What is
wrong with the information architecture / navigation on the page
proposal. Please could we move this discussion to one of the
appropriate lists aswell. I suggest python-marketing to begin with.
Fernando:
> That's why you really need to post a readable
> html site, not a png: it's almost impossible for anyone but you to
> properly judge the site with graphical screenshots. It takes a long
time to create a professional html design that is cross browser to
the extent needed for this site and also as accessibile as possible.
I am unwilling to spend this amount of time just to get some feedback
on a design that might possibly be used. To give you an idea of how
much this HTML design would cost from a consultancy (which is what
pollenation is), calculate professional rates at approx thirty two
hours work (my guess, about £1,600 or maybe $2,500). Could someone
please explain why it's impossible to judge the design of the site
without it being rendered as HTML. Perhaps the accessibility / speed
needs HTML, but not the design. Do people feel that the design would
be impossible to create as a optimal HTML entity?
Fernando:
> And since the starting thread of the discussion was a post by Tim
> himself, that seemed a perfectly fair thing to do. It may have been
> dragged here from elsewhere, but the first 'Comments ...' post was
> by Tim, and he's been responding in the discussion actively.
> As long as the comments were civil
Actually the first post wasn't by me and I only saw it as it was
mentioned in my blog, at which point I subscribed to comp.lang.python.
Fernando:
> A basic rule of design should always be: a default (www.python.org)
> value should satisfy the _majority_ of usage cases (not those with
> the most money/corporate power/whatever). Since the majority of
> visitors to the site can arguably be thought to be developers,
> _that_ is the audience the default url should target. No, a basic
> rule of design is to create something that satisfies the brief. In
this case the brief is to provide a site whose default view provides
a developer friendly page but with a heavy marketing bias. As long as
the page still satisfies the information needs of the developer then
it satsifies the brief.
David Eppstein:
>"rightly jumping all over the design"
Why are they rightly jumping all over it? Is this the purpose of
discussion? I would say people should be "right providing
constructive feedback".
Tim Parkin
>Actually, from its appearance, the new design looks like it is
>trying to sell me something. "Advert filters up!" It makes me
>suspicious, skeptical, and cynical, as all advertising does.
>When I send or refer someone to a site like that,
>I'd feel I'd have to warn them: "It looks like promotional
>material, but don't be put off; there is really good content there
>if you look for it.
They would't have to look for it. There is the same content on the page
I designed as on the current page. A slimmed down navigation yes but
that was one of the remits, it is better to have a smaller number
of links that the user can quickly find what they want than a large
number where they get lost.
Tim
Ps please can we move this off the comp.lang.python list.
Erik Max Francis
> The current website has a number of navigation, structural, and
> content
> flaws resulting from the fact that it has grown organically for
> roughly
> a decade. It is also harder to maintain than we'd prefer. Finally,
> it
> looks a bit dated.
That sounds like what's warranted is a reorganization, not necessarily a
redesign.
--
Erik Max Francis && m...@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
__ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE
/ \ I'm not worried about anything. I'm not fearing any man.
\__/ Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. (the evening before his assassination)
John J. Lee
> In article <3F5B8C51...@alcyone.com>,
> Erik Max Francis <m...@alcyone.com> wrote:
> >
> >Could someone remind me what need there is for a redesign in the first
> >place? Of all the Python-related efforts that one could put time into,
> >this seems like one of the least useful.
>
> AMK's comment is a bit overdone, so here's something more understated:
[snip]
Whatever. Just don't get rid of all those cute skewed Python logos in
all the different typefaces. All sensible people will agree that
that's clearly the most important aspect of the site ;-)
John
John J. Lee
> On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 17:26:23 +0200, Lawrence Oluyede <ra...@dot.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Zeldman's post about the new version:
> >http://zeldman.com/daily/0803a.shtml#validator
>
>
> When I view _this_ site in IE6, it has low-contrast text in a small
> size, which "view|text size" cannot change.
Presumably they view that as an IE bug.
John
John J. Lee
> Tim Parkin wrote:
> >
> > As a side note, I haven't been to any school of 'control the user
> > experience'. Furthermore I think making comments such as accusing me of
> > having a 'childish ego' and being 'arrogant' are IMO extremely
> > disrespectful and I would appreciate an apology. I am quite hurt and
> > dissapointed to see such coments on what I had considered a respectable
> > forum for discussion although I'm sure they are not representative.
>
> On behalf of those with the nasty fingers today, I apologize. Tim,
> they must have missed the relatively clear warnings that these
> are *mockups*, and posted for discussion purposes. I agree also
> that harsh public criticism without constructive comments is
> wholly unwarranted, and out of order around here, not to mention
> (thankfully) rather atypical.
[...]
Me too. Haven't followed the discussion closely or looked at the
mockup, but some of the responses looked way over the top.
I hope this doesn't stop you continuing with your efforts, Tim. Some
people here do appreciate the work you're putting in.
John
Aahz
>
>Whatever. Just don't get rid of all those cute skewed Python logos in
>all the different typefaces. All sensible people will agree that
>that's clearly the most important aspect of the site ;-)
Although the decision isn't final, that's actually one of the prime
targets. Sorry.
Aahz
Search the marketing-python or pydotorg-redesign archives; it was
mentioned two or three weeks ago.
Istvan Albert
> http://www.pollenation.net/journal/index.php?p=37&c=1
>
> main page mockup:
> http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python-main.html
The last time we redesigned our website, we've
got a significant amount of of hate mail. "You suck",
"Idiots", "Previously it was so great you had to destroy it",
"I've been a user for five years but I will
never come back to this site" etc... The odd thing is
that we thought that the site was significantly more
usable than before, after all the redesign was based on
an extensive usability testing.
(It was a pretty cool experiment, observing users
trough a one way mirror as they attempted predefined
tasks, multiple cameras and microphones tracking
what users do, it is a great thing to do if you have
the chance)
It was pretty hard to digest this hate mail, it was as if these
people had zero respect for all the hard work we've put in,
in fact most email was actually very rude and rushed,
yet the only common ingredient in all of these emails was
the perceived infallibility of the authors themselves.
But guess what, usage became indeed a whole lot higher, users
were doing more searches and were submitting significantly
more ratings than before. We have accomplished everything
we wanted.
This and other anecdotal evidence led me to the conclusion that
redesingin a site in a way that will please old-timers is
impossible. Even more, one should be very careful in
gathering input from them since they might live
in a different world than most of the people one
wants to reach. Negative comments will always far
outnumber positive ones, for the simple reason that
it seems a lot harder to praise a work than putting
it down.
I would agree with most here that a more text based
site would be more suited, but let's try to remember that there
are people that worked hard on this, and may even
be right in what they are trying to accomplish.
cheers,
Istvan.
Aahz
Tim Parkin <t...@pollenation.net> wrote:
>Aahz:
>> That said, there likely will be a subsection of python.org that is
>> aimed at managers, with a more designed look and more graphics;
>> someone trying to convince a specific manager could point zir into
>> the subsection.
>
>Fernando:
>> A visible 'corporate' link, along with a single-level url
>> www.python.org/corporate, perhaps even aliased to
>> corporate.python.org) can satisfy the PHBs with minimal effort.
>
>Please don't consider this, the majority of corporate users will find
>the site themselves or through links in articles magazines, etc. so
>they will still get first impressions from the main home page. If
>anything we could provide a developer portal page which may be used
>as a bookmark. Personally I think this is a bad idea also. What is
>wrong with the information architecture / navigation on the page
>proposal. Please could we move this discussion to one of the
>appropriate lists aswell. I suggest python-marketing to begin with.
No. If we're talking about the web site, it should be pydotorg-redesign
(and the list you're referring to is marketing-python). Please don't
clutter too many mailing lists.
As I noted earlier, I'm the Lynx champion; I'm not looking at any
designs until they're in HTML. I'm also not particularly inclined to
look at every single design until we come up with some metrics for
choosing. (You originally posted your design alongside a flood of
others when I was busy -- website look is not one of my primary
interests.)
Finally, any design I vote for *will* be usable for a large
cross-section of the community. It may include design elements that
appeal to managers and/or corporate developers, but they will not have
primacy over other groups. OTOH, I'm in agreement that managers won't
be second-class citizens, either.
Fernando Perez
> Fernando:
>> That's why you really need to post a readable
>> html site, not a png: it's almost impossible for anyone but you to
>> properly judge the site with graphical screenshots. It takes a long
> time to create a professional html design that is cross browser to
> the extent needed for this site and also as accessibile as possible.
> I am unwilling to spend this amount of time just to get some feedback
> on a design that might possibly be used. To give you an idea of how
> much this HTML design would cost from a consultancy (which is what
> pollenation is), calculate professional rates at approx thirty two
> hours work (my guess, about £1,600 or maybe $2,500). Could someone
> please explain why it's impossible to judge the design of the site
> without it being rendered as HTML. Perhaps the accessibility / speed
> needs HTML, but not the design. Do people feel that the design would
> be impossible to create as a optimal HTML entity?
Well, with an image, nobody can tell if the layout remains sensible when users
set drastically different font defaults. I, for one, use a laptop with a 14
in, 1600x1200 LCD. I have fairly large font defaults set in mozilla, and my
fonts look gorgeous (many individual pixels per letter, they read almost like
printed paper). Properly coded sites are no problem, the layout flows around
the text and it all looks just fine. But I've also seen sites where the text
splatters all over the graphical elements, because those elements assumed a
fixed pixel size that text would never exceed. Sites like that are a disaster
to read.
By looking only at a static png, I (or others in a similar situation), have no
way of knowing whether your proposed design would work ok or not with our font
choices.
I had assumed you had taken a screenshot from an existing test site in your
browser. From your other posts, I'm starting to guess that you actually 'drew'
the design in a graphics program. So I don't know if it's even possible for
you to provide in short order a functional mockup.
But you said you wanted this discussion in a marketing list I just don't have
the time to subscribe to, so I won't continue to post here further. Good luck,
Fernando.
Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters
|Apologies if you had problems but, as I've said, I don't really have
|time to apply lots of work to my home page.
The page <http://pollenationinternet.com/> states in its third paragraph
that it is intended as a demonstration of the company's designs. But
this very intro page for the company (and the other pages) has the same
major flaw most Pythonistas have complained about regarding the demo.
The fonts have extremely low contrast against the background. I have
better than 20-20 vision (and full color perception; and a 21" monitor),
and my eyes strain when I look at that page.
Yours, Lulu...
--
mertz@ _/_/_/_/ THIS MESSAGE WAS BROUGHT TO YOU BY: \_\_\_\_ n o
gnosis _/_/ Postmodern Enterprises \_\_
.cx _/_/ \_\_ d o
_/_/_/ IN A WORLD W/O WALLS, THERE WOULD BE NO GATES \_\_\_ z e
Bengt Richter
>David Eppstein wrote:
>
[...]
[...]
Thanks, both, for saving me a bunch of typing ;-)
It looks slick, but not really technically slick in a way
that would lead me to expectations about Python, just
eye-candy/we-spend-more-on-advertising-than-research
kind of slick (though for largely irrelevant photos, I
prefer pretty things and/or great photography ;-)
So, yeah, ad-shields-up was my reaction too, sorry. A prominent
notice like "this site prepared and served with free Python-scripted
software" might alter the impact and create some Python-linkage from
the appearance. (Of course it would have to be true, otherwise what's
being sold? Photoshop? ;-)
My frame of mind going to python.org is pleasant anticipation
like walking into an engineering library or technical reading room
I'm familiar with. By all means put notices there to direct
people to events and places of interest, but don't put on a facade
that makes my library feel like a commercial lobby ;-)
Let those be separate buildings. Too bad python.com is apparently, um, taken.
My 2 cents..
Maybe I'd get used to it, but that is my first reaction. Nice work, really,
but not for my old technical library building ;-)
Regards,
Bengt Richter
Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters
|well. I suggest python-marketing to begin with.
A marketing list is just not an appropriate forum for discussing
redesigning the main python website. The page www.python.org just
simply should not be driven primarily, or even significantly, by
"marketing" issues... it's us developers who use it, in the overwhelming
majority.
We developers should not be treated as second class Python users because
someone got the idea that the page should look like what PHBs expect.
On the other hand... it seems like an entirely different site could look
like that glossy pamphlet. Maybe something like:
Or even:
Just as long as the main page doesn't get majorly uglified.
Yours, Lulu...
--
Keeping medicines from the bloodstreams of the sick; food from the bellies
of the hungry; books from the hands of the uneducated; technology from the
underdeveloped; and putting advocates of freedom in prisons. Intellectual
property is to the 21st century what the slave trade was to the 16th.
Graham Fawcett
>"Tim Parkin" <tim.p...@pollenationinternet.com> wrote previously:
>|Please could we move this discussion to one of the appropriate lists as
>|well. I suggest python-marketing to begin with.
>
>A marketing list is just not an appropriate forum for discussing
>redesigning the main python website. The page www.python.org just
>simply should not be driven primarily, or even significantly, by
>"marketing" issues... it's us developers who use it, in the overwhelming
>majority.
>We developers should not be treated as second class Python users because
>someone got the idea that the page should look like what PHBs expect.
>
>
Developers will always be first-class Python users; it's a programming
language, after all. Whether they should be first-class users of
www.python.org, in my humble opinion, is questionable.
http://dev.python.org/ would fly from my fingers just as quickly as
http://www.python.org/ . As a past and present Python developer I would
feel that I had received first-class treatment through such an accord.
I believe that, indeed, the front page ought to be comforting to the
bosses, pointy-headed and otherwise. They are the least likely to go
hunting for variants on *.python*.org -- it's www or nothing if you
haven't got a technical clue. (Of course, http://www.python.com/ is
going to be their first stop, God help us all!)
And let's face it, eye-candy and smiling faces suggest that there's
money and savvy behind a thing. They suggest that the owners of the site
know business, that they bathe regularly and might even own a tie. They
offer smells of competency, viability and longeivity, and these are good
smells to offer to decision-makers. They are psychologically inviting
and reassuring to a larger audience, an audience that doesn't read
Internet RFCs at bedtime and DTDs in lieu of the morning paper.
A bounty of eye-candy and a lack of content will kill any site, of
course, but surely the marketing SIG could ensure that never happens.
Will new Python developers be dissuaded some eye-candy on the "main"
Python portal? Perhaps they will be /distracted/ for a brief moment
while they are looking for the "Developers" link. Once they know about
dev.python.org, they may never return to the main portal again. No
worries there. But they may well be delighted to know that all the
eye-candy exists, when they try to justify the use of this "unheard-of"
language to their management team. (If they want to persuade their
development/engineering team, they can always direct them to
dev.python.org.)
www.python.org for the suits and dev.python.org for the developers:
everybody wins. Let Occam's razor cut in favour of those who can follow
but the simplest technical path.
>On the other hand... it seems like an entirely different site could look
>like that glossy pamphlet. Maybe something like:
>
> http://python-business.com/
>
>Or even:
>
> http://enterprise.python.com/
>
>
Again, nice idea, but the bosses will never find it unless you type in
the URL for them yourself.
Marketing-sig: For my part, I hereby grant you full privilege to do
whatever you want with the Python home page. Give me a dev site, and a
Python installation, and I can move the world; let the others surf where
they may.
Yours,
-- Graham
P.S. Not in reply to you, Lulu, but I *do* think they should offer a
boxed Python set: bundle a Python 2.3 development environment on a
CD-ROM for $299; put the standard library on another, for an extra $299.
Put in a nice pamphlet and a registration card, maybe a mouse pad with
the new "fingerprint logo" on it. Put some copper in the PSF's coffers,
and help the suits feel what we already know: that Python is so good,
it's worth paying for. My boss would buy two of 'em, after seeing what
Python has done for us!
Y2KYZFR1
> 2) The site is designed to reflect the expectations of commercial
> customers who are used to the likes of peoplesoft and atg, etc.
all of those sites are completely useless brochure ware fluff.
A programming language web site does not NEED any graphics whatsoever!
It needs clean plain readable text that is logically and rationally
laid out with obvious textual links, also it needs to be MULTI-LINGUAL
. . . which pictures and icons are NOT multi-lingual by nature.
> also
> it's designed to project an image to set Python alongside existing
> enterprise programming langagues (apologies for using the e word)
try picking a web site that is useable over the graphical corporate
fluff for the home page.
then put a big obvious link that says, NON-TECHNICAL PEOPLE THAT WANT
PYTHIN INFORMATION CLICK THIS! or some such thing.
Making the default home page corporate contentless brochure-ware fluff
is defiantly the quickest way to drive away the technical people,
without whom Python would not be as popular.
A completely separate brochure-ware Python for non-technical managers
site would be usefull, but making the entire site and the main page
have that function would be counter productive.
here are good useable technical sites
http://www.cetus-links.org/
http://sourceforge.net/
http://firebird.sourceforge.net/
http://www.mozilla.org/
there are many others, but they all have ONE thing in common, CLEAN
UNCLUTTERED CONSISTENT layout of information, and very very very very
few graphics and very very very little fluff.
Anything that does NOT directly convey useful infomration is FLUFF.
> 3) it's an image. Images don't stretch. If I make it any bigger
> it would not fit in 800 wide browsers. A lot of designers make a choice
> between fixed width and fluid. I would probably choose fluid for all
> but the home page however I'm looking at fluid techniques for that too.
then post the HTML that generated the image, learn from your lesson,
don't post screen shots in the future.
> Tim
David Mertz
|>someone got the idea that the page should look like what PHBs expect.
Graham Fawcett <faw...@teksavvy.com> wrote previously:
|Developers will always be first-class Python users; it's a programming
|language, after all. Whether they should be first-class users of
|www.python.org, in my humble opinion, is questionable.
|http://dev.python.org/ would fly from my fingers just as quickly as
|http://www.python.org/ .
There's something too this claim, actually. I find the page at
http://ibm.com/ to be a bit too busy and marketing-oriented (but not
nearly so much so as Parkin's sample); however, one click on the
"Developers" link that is fairly prominent brings you right to the much
better organized developerWorks site (where I write, after all). In
fact, the general layout of dW is quite similar to that of the current
python.org site.
However, given that hardly anyone would bother making links to this new
marketing-oriented http://www.python.org, the benefit of Fawcett's
organization would be reduced. Any PHB who actually searched for a term
like "Python programming" would still get http://dev.python.org/ since
that's the one everyone would go to (at least as google's first choice).
|They suggest that the owners of the site know business, that they bathe
|regularly and might even own a tie. They offer smells of competency,
|viability and longeivity, and these are good smells to offer to
|decision-makers.
I guess so. But as someone who makes a lot of recommendations via my
writing, I find many of those same "knows business" signs to
significantly lessen my first impressions of a product. I want
something that works well, not something where the money goes to the
marketing department. It's a big red flag to my mind to see a web page
that looks like a brochure.
Admittedly, I am nobody's -boss-. And I don't directly buy much
software. But I do exercise a certain "moral influence" on technology
choices.
And after all... I'm not sure where the idea came from that the PSF is
a for-profit company that WANTS to market Python (as opposed to just
make the best tools possible).
|P.S. Not in reply to you, Lulu, but I *do* think they should offer a
|boxed Python set: bundle a Python 2.3 development environment on a
|CD-ROM for $299;
I'd like to announce that Gnosis Software is hereby offering a $299
boxed set of Python that includes the full development environment for
Python 2.3 (and dozens of widely used 3rd party Python packages, chosen
from widely used free software) for multiple platforms on CD; it further
includes both an attractive spiral bound edition of Guido's Tutorial,
the standard Library documentation, and a copy of Mertz' book _Text
Processing in Python_ in the box.
Just email <send-m...@gnosis.cx> for details on payment/shipping.
The first order may take an extra week for setup time (it might take a
couple days for me to talk to my local copy-shop about printing the box
and so on). [only *wink*ing inasmuch as I question the market, for even
one $299 sale, I really would create something quite nice looking]
Yours, David...
Graham Fawcett
>"Tim Parkin" <tim.p...@pollenationinternet.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1062962051...@python.org>...
>
>
[snip]
>
>
>>also
>>it's designed to project an image to set Python alongside existing
>>enterprise programming langagues (apologies for using the e word)
>>
>>
>
>try picking a web site that is useable over the graphical corporate
>fluff for the home page.
>
>then put a big obvious link that says, NON-TECHNICAL PEOPLE THAT WANT
>PYTHIN INFORMATION CLICK THIS! or some such thing.
>
>
Here. I think I've solved the problem once and for all.
Rather than throw stones, I have created a *brand new design* design for
Python.org. I am certain that will satisfy both the technical users and
the suit-wearing investigators. It borrows the time-honoured stylings of
the old Python site, and blends them with some upscale business moxy.
Take a look:
Sorry, there's no comments page. Please send your opinions to the
marketing SIG.
P.S. It's not an image! Feel free to check out my kewl HTML coding
skills. I used CSS and everything.
Yours,
-- Graham
Tayss
> Please don't consider this, the majority of corporate users will find
> the site themselves or through links in articles magazines, etc. so
> they will still get first impressions from the main home page. If
> anything we could provide a developer portal page which may be used
> wrong with the information architecture / navigation on the page
> proposal.
The new version is well-executed. Different elements contrast; most
people like seeing faces (especially when they're flush with
success)...
But as a DEVELOPER, it doesn't work for me. I hate seeing
happy-looking guys when I get out of bed with someone to bang out some
code that struck me. Announcements are trapped in their safe boxes,
which dominate their content.
What I want as a developer is in conflict with what I'd want as a
businessperson. A suit wants good /relevant/ info, that tells her
Python isn't snake oil, that it's a good investment that also conforms
to standards. Maybe a directory of consultants and supporting
software to purchase. Every so often something new, like someone
sharing Powerpoint slides that made his audience feel educated.
If the sites aren't separated, the danger is noise. The best sites
focus. Like apple.com and Google. Apple is pleasant to visit because
there are a few sharp things to announce. If you can please two
audiences with one page, you're very skilled.
- Tayssir John Gabbour
Eduardo Alvarez
>
> "rt lange" <white...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns93EEDC144D362w...@216.77.188.17...
>> came across this page searching feedster.
>> dont know whether this is the official resdesign or just a proposal;
>> but the mockups look very nice.
>
>
>> http://www.pollenation.net/journal/index.php?p=37&c=1
>>
>> main page mockup:
>> http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python-main.html
>
> to read this page. This is done in the arrogant style of 'we know
> better than you what type size you should have'. Also known as the
> 'control the user experience' school. Awful. For me, one of the
> worse pages I have ever seen. Anti-Pythonic.
>
>> interior page:
>> http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python-interior.html
>
> Only slightly better. The low contrast gray-on-gray comments page is
> also barely readable. (Others reported the same.) For my
> less-than-perfect 50+ year-old eyes, it is physically the WORST
> comments page I have ever seen. It is a case study in
> anti-accessibility design. The person responsible should not touch
> our site.
>
> Terry J. Reedy
>
>
>
> Terry J. Reedy
>
>
> only slightly better.
>
>
mmmm...I only seem to see an image of the proposal. is it possible to
see an actual HTML version of it? The easiest test in my opinion would
be to run it by lynx, and see how readable it is then...
--
Eduardo Alvarez http://www.great-atuin.net/~punga
(offline, at the moment)
"Stercus, stercus stercus, moriturus sum"
-- Rincewind the Wizzard, "Interesting Times"
Tim Parkin
>It looks slick, but not really technically slick in a way
>that would lead me to expectations about Python, just
>eye-candy/we-spend-more-on-advertising-than-research
>kind of slick (though for largely irrelevant photos, I
>prefer pretty things and/or great photography ;-)
What has amazed me throughout the pulling of a discussion
Onto the Python list is the amount of furor that has been
generated by the use of three photographs. The marketing
content of the website takes only 7% of the space of the
main page. The remaining is textual navigation content.
If we're in a position where people hate photography then
I think we have to accept that this is an irrational
problem and that it shouldn't affect the promotion of
Python in the computer industry.
For those still commenting on the contrast issue, please
understand that there are accessibility guidelines that
suggest a use of 70% contrast in order to maximise readability
for all users.
These are my last comments on the comp.lang.python mailing list.
If anyone wants to continue the disucssion and really help to
create/promote Python, please move to either
http://pythonology.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-python
or
http://pythonology.org/mailman/listinfo/py-design-forum
The second list if it's website or design related.
Tim
Alex Martelli
> "Tim Parkin" <tim.p...@pollenationinternet.com> wrote previously:
> |Please could we move this discussion to one of the appropriate lists as
> |well. I suggest python-marketing to begin with.
>
> A marketing list is just not an appropriate forum for discussing
> redesigning the main python website. The page www.python.org just
> simply should not be driven primarily, or even significantly, by
> "marketing" issues... it's us developers who use it, in the overwhelming
> majority.
So, you're asserting that the target audience of the site IS and SHOULD BE
"developers". Surprise, surprise: this assertion IS "a marketing issue".
Marketing BEGINS with the identification of target audiences and the
products and services that will best meet the target audiences' need.
Many techies think of "marketing" as a dirty word because it's so often
misused as an inappropriate synonym for "selling". Using words properly,
marketing is a perfectly legitimate and important activity: identify
who you're addressing, address their needs through appropriate products
and services, communicate to them that your products and services do
address their needs, listen to their feedback and adjust your products
and services to meet their needs even better, look for other audiences
that might get their needs met by your products and services possibily
with some modifications.
Alex
Alex Martelli
...
> A basic rule of design should always be: a default (www.python.org) value
> should satisfy the _majority_ of usage cases (not those with the most
> money/corporate power/whatever). Since the majority of visitors to the
> site can arguably be thought to be developers, _that_ is the audience the
As a general principle of design, this is wrong, because it does not
take into account the _COST_ of occurrences of "not satisfying".
Consider dictionary addressing: what DOES one want to occur when the
key is not in the dict in an operation such as thedict[thekey]? It is
arguable that in a majority of cases one wants to use a default value
while the need to get an error is somewhat rarer. HOWEVER, this does
not mean Python's design is wrong, because this simple count regarding
"majority of use cases" is not considering the *COSTS*. If absent keys
implicitly supplied a default value, then using the default when an
error should be instead raised for key absence would produce weird and
hard-to-debug error situations down the line; as is, using the default
when in fact one wants to supply a default value immediately produces
an exception that shows one must use .get (or whatever) instead. So,
the current design may well be optimal even though it might appear to
conflict with the "basic rule of design" as Fernando mistakenly states it.
Of course, if one DOES consider costs appropriately, then the thesis that
Fernando wants to promote doesn't necessarily follow any more. It may
well be argued that developers are more web-savvy than managers and other
corporate decision-makers, easily able to follow a link and/or set a
bookmark as appropriate -- so that failing to serve developers by the
default homepage has low cost, while failing to serve managers by it
(even though it were true that *EVEN IN THE FUTURE* most visitors will
be developers) may well have higher costs.
This doesn't necessarily have to do with "money" or "corporate power",
but rather with ability of the two sub-audiences to negotiate different
levels of difficulty -- what's trivial to a developer may well not be
to an executive. Analogy: say that due to space constraints (adapting
to public use an existing Renaissance building, a frequent case around
here) I have to choose EITHER a few steps or stairs OR a ramp as the
building's main public access way. Maybe for 95% of the visitors the
stairs are marginally more convenient than the ramp. If one were to
apply Fernando's mistakenly-stated principle, one would choose stairs.
But actually the inconvenience of ramps vs stairs to those 95% of users
is minor, call it 0.01 in some arbitrary unit of utility -- while for
the 5% of visitors who are wheelchair-bound, the stairs are *WAY* more
problematic than the ramp, say by 10.0 in the same unit of measure.
So if one were to follow Fernando's principle of serving the majority
of use cases, overall loss of utility for 100 visitors would be 50.0
units (10.0 each for the 5 wheelchair-bound visitors); by following the
RIGHT principle of maximizing overall utility (WEIGHING the frequency
by the cost, a TRUE key principle of design!), the overall loss of
utility would be 0.95 (0.01 each for the 95 non-wheelchair-bound
visitors). Thus, the application of Fernando's mistaken principle
would be a minor tragedy in term of design failure in this hypothetical
case. It's not an issue of anybody being a "second class citizen",
as Fernando emotionally puts it: it IS an issue of the ables and
strongest, even if in a majority, making a (to them) minor sacrifice
to help less-able and weaker ones, even if in a minority, avoid what
(to them) might more likely be a serious problem.
If designers will consider this issue more generally when making their
key architectural decisions, then this whole weird thread may have
repaid itself by this single observation;-).
Alex
Alan Kennedy
>> 2) The site is designed to reflect the expectations of commercial
>> customers who are used to the likes of peoplesoft and atg, etc.
Y2KYZFR1 wrote:
> all of those sites are completely useless brochure ware fluff.
>
> A programming language web site does not NEED any graphics whatsoever!
> It needs clean plain readable text that is logically and rationally
> laid out with obvious textual links, also it needs to be MULTI-LINGUAL
> . . . which pictures and icons are NOT multi-lingual by nature.
Does this mean we can't have any Monty Python imagery on the page?
If there's going to be images on the home page, we should have one of
a Norwegian Blue, "Pining for the Fjords".
Or better still, CharWoman (aka Queen Elizabeth), swinging on a vine
in front of Buckingham Palace?
Or a tableau of "The Knights who go Nih"?
The possibilities are endless ;-)
--
alan kennedy
-----------------------------------------------------
check http headers here: http://xhaus.com/headers
email alan: http://xhaus.com/mailto/alan
John J. Lee
[...]
> http://dev.python.org/ would fly from my fingers just as quickly as
> http://www.python.org/ . As a past and present Python developer I
> would feel that I had received first-class treatment through such an
> accord.
+1, FWIW
John
A.M. Kuchling
Eduardo Alvarez <!spamispeople!pu...@great-atuin.net> wrote:
> mmmm...I only seem to see an image of the proposal. is it possible to
> see an actual HTML version of it? The easiest test in my opinion would
> be to run it by lynx, and see how readable it is then...
Writing an HTML version would normally only be done once the graphical
design has been chosen. It's a lot of work to get the CSS right across all
browsers, so an HTML version might only replace "this font is too small"
complaints with "this displays strangely in my browser" messages. It's not
worth doing all that required tweaking for what's just a prototype.
Don't worry about Lynx compatibility; there are at least two people who are
primarily Lynx users (Aahz and me). I assure you that any final design will
be Lynx-unusable over my dead body.
--amk
Skip Montanaro
Terry> Email me a URL of a serious proposal and I will view with IE and
Terry> reply with comment re readability. Or just post and let several
Terry> people test.
The place to follow this activity is on the pydotorg-redesign mailing list.
Skip
Nick Vargish
around $300. People who make the business decisions _like_ spending
money on a product -- it's somehow comforting to them. Include bound
copies of the Tutorial and Library Reference, to give the box some
weight and make it clear that they are paying for something more than
a CD of "free software". (Spiral bound documents, please!)
I'm hoping that my boss will be shelling out for some Komodo Pro
licenses, partly for the above reason. The other part of the reason is
that once money is spent on something, it becomes more entrenched in
an organization. This will serve to counter the PHB attitude that "if
it costs nothing to bring in, it will cost nothing to throw out."
I'd like to support ActiveState financially, since their ActivePython
distro is a nice way to get people started with Python, without having
to tell them to install a collection of modules after they install the
interpreter. Similarly, I would like a business reason to send money
to the PSF, as asking my boss to make a PayPal donation just ain't
gonna happen.
Nick
--
# sigmask || 0.2 || 20030107 || public domain || feed this to a python
print reduce(lambda x,y:x+chr(ord(y)-1),' Ojdl!Wbshjti!=obwAcboefstobudi/psh?')
Nick Vargish
> Just email <send-m...@gnosis.cx> for details on payment/shipping.
> The first order may take an extra week for setup time (it might take a
> couple days for me to talk to my local copy-shop about printing the box
> and so on). [only *wink*ing inasmuch as I question the market, for even
> one $299 sale, I really would create something quite nice looking]
How much of this $299 would go to the PSF? And how much would go to
the David-needs-a-yacht fund? I could probably get my boss to order 4
or 5 such boxed distributions...
No-*winking*-at-all,
Graham Fawcett
> Here. I think I've solved the problem once and for all.
>
> Rather than throw stones, I have created a *brand new design* design
> for Python.org. I am certain that will satisfy both the technical
> users and the suit-wearing investigators. It borrows the time-honoured
> stylings of the old Python site, and blends them with some upscale
> business moxy.
>
> Take a look:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/mlcv
>
> Sorry, there's no comments page. Please send your opinions to the
> marketing SIG.
>
> P.S. It's not an image! Feel free to check out my kewl HTML coding
> skills. I used CSS and everything.
Lest anyone (else) not catch the humorous intent of my message -- please
DO NOT send your opinions to the marketing SIG. This was intended as a
satirical reply to a c.l.python message -- I don't want to add noise to
the python-marketing list.
-- Graham
Gerrit Holl
> Tim Parkin wrote:
> > Perhaps the people who have commented on the site should realise it's
> > a proposal and a work in progress.
>
> Could someone remind me what need there is for a redesign in the first
> place? Of all the Python-related efforts that one could put time into,
> this seems like one of the least useful.
What I *do* think, is that it would be useful to put the FAQ more
prominently on the site. Maybe posting the FAQ to c.l.py weekly,
in a separate post, also helps. I don't really mind seeing questions
answered in the FAQ, but it will help because the FAQ is not very
easy to find.
(The FAQ actually _is_ linked from the front page of www.python.org, but
there are exactly 114 links on the front page: not exactly easy to find
the FAQ between them, especially if you're new)
Gerrit.
--
107. If the merchant cheat the agent, in that as the latter has
returned to him all that had been given him, but the merchant denies the
receipt of what had been returned to him, then shall this agent convict
the merchant before God and the judges, and if he still deny receiving
what the agent had given him shall pay six times the sum to the agent.
-- 1780 BC, Hammurabi, Code of Law
--
Asperger Syndroom - een persoonlijke benadering:
http://people.nl.linux.org/~gerrit/
Het zijn tijden om je zelf met politiek te bemoeien:
http://www.sp.nl/
Kevin Dahlhausen
> that we thought that the site was significantly more
> usable than before, after all the redesign was based on
> an extensive usability testing.
>
> (It was a pretty cool experiment, observing users
> trough a one way mirror as they attempted predefined
> tasks, multiple cameras and microphones tracking
> what users do, it is a great thing to do if you have
> the chance)
I second that - watching my first web-app usability study really
opened my eyes. It's worth doing at any level.
>
> It was pretty hard to digest this hate mail, it was as if these
> people had zero respect for all the hard work we've put in,
> in fact most email was actually very rude and rushed,
> yet the only common ingredient in all of these emails was
> the perceived infallibility of the authors themselves.
Try to remember that that email came from a very small percentage of
the community and that most users of Python are very grateful of the
work people put into Python and the community around it. You'll get
goof balls wherever you go.
Aahz
Graham Fawcett <faw...@teksavvy.com> wrote:
>
>Rather than throw stones, I have created a *brand new design* design for
>Python.org. I am certain that will satisfy both the technical users and
>the suit-wearing investigators. It borrows the time-honoured stylings of
>the old Python site, and blends them with some upscale business moxy.
>
>Take a look:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/mlcv
Many people, me included, won't follow tinyurl links; please provide a
standard URL, too.
>Sorry, there's no comments page. Please send your opinions to the
>marketing SIG.
DO NOT USE marketing-python for web site issues. USE pydotorg-redesign.
Gerhard Häring
> Could someone remind me what need there is for a redesign in the first
> place? Of all the Python-related efforts that one could put time into,
> this seems like one of the least useful.
I guess (I may be wrong) that Tim Parkin is not a developer, but
apparently he has experience with web design. For some reason he chose
to volunteer for proposing a redesign of the Python homepage (foolishly
so, he might think by now). There's hardly any point in you telling him
what to spend his time on for free, is there? :-/
Generally, in the open source community there's no point in telling
people what they should do. Of those that are involved with open source
in their spare time, everybody contributes to what are her or his
priorities, according to their skills. Many of these projects might be a
waste of time, but neither of your time nor mine :-)
I dislike the connotation that web design (or writing documentation)
would be less valuable than more technical contributions to Python.
-- Gerhard
Dave Kuhlman
> Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters wrote:
>
>> "Tim Parkin" <tim.p...@pollenationinternet.com> wrote
>> previously:
>> |Please could we move this discussion to one of the appropriate
>> |lists as
>> |well. I suggest python-marketing to begin with.
>>
>> A marketing list is just not an appropriate forum for discussing
>> redesigning the main python website. The page www.python.org
>> just simply should not be driven primarily, or even
>> significantly, by "marketing" issues... it's us developers who
>> use it, in the overwhelming majority.
>
> So, you're asserting that the target audience of the site IS and
> SHOULD BE
> "developers". Surprise, surprise: this assertion IS "a marketing
> issue". Marketing BEGINS with the identification of target
> audiences and the products and services that will best meet the
> target audiences' need.
>
We're not, I believe, arguing about the target audience for
Python. We're arguing about the target audience for
http://www.python.org.
Further more, saying that the choice of a target audience or that
the choice of the service and product to be provided is a
marketing issue begs the question. It just assumes that marketing
should take over decisions about the direction of a company or a
site.
> Many techies think of "marketing" as a dirty word because it's so
> often
> misused as an inappropriate synonym for "selling". Using words
> properly, marketing is a perfectly legitimate and important
> activity: identify who you're addressing, address their needs
> through appropriate products and services, communicate to them
> that your products and services do address their needs, listen to
> their feedback and adjust your products and services to meet their
> needs even better, look for other audiences that might get their
> needs met by your products and services possibily with some
> modifications.
These are all good suggestions for a Python promotion site or for a
site for a company that sells Python services.
No one is arguing that marketing and sales are illegitimate.
David Mertz has already offered to sell "Python in a box with
extras" for $299, possibly even for less if you say, "Guido sent
me". But, please don't do it at http://www.python.org.
I am on the side of those who say that the marketing and
promotion should not be done at the Python home page,
http://www.python.org. It does not seem to be the main focus at
http://www.perl.org/ nor at http://java.sun.com/. What promotion
is done at those sites (and the current Python home site) is done
through helping developers and not through paid endorsements etc.
The Java site, by the way, looks like they copied www.python.org,
then polished it and edited it for Java.
Dave
--
Dave Kuhlman
http://www.rexx.com/~dkuhlman
dkuh...@rexx.com
Jeff Epler
MAKE SURE THE DAMNED THING FILLS MY SCREEN, instead of using 80%, or
66%, or 400px, like so many shite websites out there. (yes, I know these
are images)
When this is converted to CSS, a "high contrast" style sheet should be
offered because there are many users who would benefit from it.
Similarly, make sure this site is good for links (text-only) browser
users.
Obviously, the links available directly from the front page need careful
consideration. I visit python.org 90% of the time for documentation
(though usually through a bookmark to python.org/doc/lib), 5% for PEPs,
5% for links to sf tracker items (using URLs provided in e-mail), and 1%
(oops, I'm up to 101%) to download a new Python release. My needs are
probably atypical, though.
Why are you calling python2.3.tar.gz a "binary"? That file contains the
source code to Python, not any binary executable. Bow to the forces of
marketing and include stupid meaningless pictures and slogans if you must,
but at least keep the page technically correct!
Jeff
Dave Brueck
> In article <mailman.1062997392...@python.org>,
>
> Graham Fawcett <faw...@teksavvy.com> wrote:
> >Rather than throw stones, I have created a *brand new design* design for
> >Python.org. I am certain that will satisfy both the technical users and
> >the suit-wearing investigators. It borrows the time-honoured stylings of
> >the old Python site, and blends them with some upscale business moxy.
> >
> >Take a look:
> >
> >http://tinyurl.com/mlcv
>
> Many people, me included, won't follow tinyurl links; please provide a
> standard URL, too.
Why? Are you worried that he'll redirect you to kiddie porn or something?
Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters
|Many techies think of "marketing" as a dirty word because it's so often
|misused as an inappropriate synonym for "selling".
marketing
1. The act or process of buying and selling in a market.
2. The commercial functions involved in transferring goods from
producer to consumer.
--------------------
The American Heritage (r) Concise Dictionary of the English Language,
Third Edition. Copyright (c) 1992 Houghton Mifflin Company.
In other words, 'marketing' is a synonym for 'selling' (commercially).
The neutral word that Alex is looking for is 'promotion', which has a
subtle but important difference from the dirty word.
Yours, Lulu...
--
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Bengt Richter
>Bengt Wrote
>>It looks slick, but not really technically slick in a way
>>that would lead me to expectations about Python, just
>>eye-candy/we-spend-more-on-advertising-than-research
>>kind of slick (though for largely irrelevant photos, I
>>prefer pretty things and/or great photography ;-)
>
>What has amazed me throughout the pulling of a discussion
>Onto the Python list is the amount of furor that has been
>generated by the use of three photographs. The marketing
>content of the website takes only 7% of the space of the
>main page. The remaining is textual navigation content.
>
Being goosed is not a matter of percentages ;-)
>If we're in a position where people hate photography then
If you take my post to mean I hate photography, then you misread.
I said, "I prefer pretty things and/or great photography."
>I think we have to accept that this is an irrational
>problem and that it shouldn't affect the promotion of
>Python in the computer industry.
>
Emotional responses are irrational, yes, but that is what "promotion"
is about. Simply making information easily available for rational
decision-making promotes use, but that's not "promotion" in the sales
department sense of "pushing" sales.
I suspect this distinction is at the root of some of the "furor."
My concern is that Python will be "sold" on some basis other than
its many objectively solid merits.
(Of course, the merits of interest to software developers and to business executives
are not identical. Success stories will interest the latter more than metaclasses and mro.
So a single portal page for all must lead easily to resources of interest to all on first
encounter. As has been mentioned, developers will no doubt bookmark dev.python.org or whatever
becomes the main page for developers, so the home page now becomes a matter of balanced PR
and well thought out top level indexing).
Photographs of people in role settings serve to trigger identification/wannabe
responses (sometimes the role is in relation to the depicted rather than the
depicted's role). (So why don't we have a picture of a hot Victoria's-secret model as
businesswoman in a hot roadster giving a ride to an Armani-dressed(?) geek with an armload
of Python books? And maybe work in a collage of success-reward recreation resort images
for subliminal background effect? Sex, food, energy to squander -- buy it, buy it! ;-)
I'm not quite immune ;-) But what is the goal here?
>For those still commenting on the contrast issue, please
>understand that there are accessibility guidelines that
>suggest a use of 70% contrast in order to maximise readability
>for all users.
Hopefully a minor adjustment issue.
>
>These are my last comments on the comp.lang.python mailing list.
>If anyone wants to continue the disucssion and really help to
>create/promote Python, please move to either
>
I can hardly keep up with c.l.py, never mind more ;-/
>http://pythonology.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-python
>
>or
>
>http://pythonology.org/mailman/listinfo/py-design-forum
>
>The second list if it's website or design related.
>
Hope my reactions are useful data.
Regards,
Bengt Richter
Alex Martelli
> Alex Martelli <al...@aleax.it> wrote previously:
> |Many techies think of "marketing" as a dirty word because it's so often
> |misused as an inappropriate synonym for "selling".
>
> marketing
> 1. The act or process of buying and selling in a market.
> 2. The commercial functions involved in transferring goods from
> producer to consumer.
> --------------------
> The American Heritage (r) Concise Dictionary of the English Language,
> Third Edition. Copyright (c) 1992 Houghton Mifflin Company.
>
> In other words, 'marketing' is a synonym for 'selling' (commercially).
>
> The neutral word that Alex is looking for is 'promotion', which has a
> subtle but important difference from the dirty word.
Nope -- it's "marketing" as defined in textbooks of economics, which
go WAY more deeply onto all details of that "buying and selling in a
market" and all it implies, as opposed to its general perception. In
large firms, Sales ("selling commercially") and Marketing are separate
divisions -- and Marketing isn't just about "promotion", either. For
a presentation of a position similar to mine, see e.g. Eric Sink's
weblog at http://software.ericsink.com/Positioning.html .
Alex
Robin Becker
<tim.p...@pollenationinternet.com> writes
>Bengt Wrote
>>It looks slick, but not really technically slick in a way
>>that would lead me to expectations about Python, just
>>eye-candy/we-spend-more-on-advertising-than-research
>>kind of slick (though for largely irrelevant photos, I
>>prefer pretty things and/or great photography ;-)
>
>What has amazed me throughout the pulling of a discussion
>Onto the Python list is the amount of furor that has been
>generated by the use of three photographs. The marketing
>content of the website takes only 7% of the space of the
>main page. The remaining is textual navigation content.
that awful corporate entrapment feeling (at a recruitment event someone
asked me why all the people in the slides were young when we wanted
commitment and promised a long term career etc etc).
The problem for me at least is that even with ADSL they slow things to a
crawl for a period and then things pop up. This is after all just eye-
candy and I want the real protein.
There is also the bicycle shed effect. We pretty well understand the
concepts although the colour may be wrong.
--
Robin Becker
Alex Martelli
...
>> So, you're asserting that the target audience of the site IS and
>> SHOULD BE
>> "developers". Surprise, surprise: this assertion IS "a marketing
>> issue". Marketing BEGINS with the identification of target
>> audiences and the products and services that will best meet the
>> target audiences' need.
>
> We're not, I believe, arguing about the target audience for
> Python. We're arguing about the target audience for
> http://www.python.org.
Yes, and? A site has a target audience just as assuredly as any
other product or service has. If you don't consciously identify
that audience, it just "happens", but such "deciding to not
decide" is "marketing by accident" -- ineffective but still there.
> Further more, saying that the choice of a target audience or that
> the choice of the service and product to be provided is a
> marketing issue begs the question. It just assumes that marketing
> should take over decisions about the direction of a company or a
> site.
Of course not, because there are constraints that it's not marketing's
job to identify, e.g. finances and technical issues. It's from a
hopefully synergical interaction of marketing and other functions
that the direction emerges.
>> Many techies think of "marketing" as a dirty word because it's so
>> often
>> misused as an inappropriate synonym for "selling". Using words
>> properly, marketing is a perfectly legitimate and important
>> activity: identify who you're addressing, address their needs
>> through appropriate products and services, communicate to them
>> that your products and services do address their needs, listen to
>> their feedback and adjust your products and services to meet their
>> needs even better, look for other audiences that might get their
>> needs met by your products and services possibily with some
>> modifications.
>
> These are all good suggestions for a Python promotion site or for a
> site for a company that sells Python services.
These are suggestions totally independent from Python or any
other specifics. Any entity that aims to further the success
and spread of [e.g.] Python, as the Python Software Foundation's
charter says, _had better_ keep these functions in mind.
> I am on the side of those who say that the marketing and
> promotion should not be done at the Python home page,
> http://www.python.org. It does not seem to be the main focus at
And I am on the side of those who say that "wasting" the
obvious recognition value of www.BASENAMEHERE.org -- the
site that will be automatically visited by semismart browsers
if the user just types BASENAMEHERE on the URL field then
Enter -- would be totally absurd.
Techies know enough to follow links presented from said
page. Non-techies need to be more pampered.
> http://www.perl.org/ nor at http://java.sun.com/. What promotion
Look at www.java.com, *NOT* at java.sun.com. The former is what
"the suits" visit by default.
Alex
Skip Montanaro
David Mertz
|> Just email <send-m...@gnosis.cx> for details on payment/shipping.
|> The first order may take an extra week for setup time (it might take a
|> couple days for me to talk to my local copy-shop about printing the box
|> and so on). [only *wink*ing inasmuch as I question the market, for even
|> one $299 sale, I really would create something quite nice looking]
|How much of this $299 would go to the PSF? And how much would go to
|the David-needs-a-yacht fund? I could probably get my boss to order 4
|or 5 such boxed distributions...
Well... maybe it would be the David-needs-a-canoe fund; I'd have to sell
quite a few before I'd be thinking about the yacht (to sail my local
Connecticut River, I guess).
How serious does anyone else think the market for a Python boxed set
would be? If some people such a thing would actually sell some copies,
I wouldn't mind putting some work into making nice covers for the box,
formatting the documentation nicely, and the like. And presumably
giving most of the money to the PSF, especially if someone wanted to
give me a hand with the project. FWIW, I -do- own a little consulting
corporation, which may mean something for business/tax purposes.
Yours, David...
--
_/_/_/ THIS MESSAGE WAS BROUGHT TO YOU BY: Postmodern Enterprises _/_/_/
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_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ Surely you don't think that *I* believe them! _/_/
Chui Tey
I know lots of developers who'd like to develop python for a living and not
as a hobby. (I'm lucky enough that I do). The python.org home page should be
devoted to the suits who will be prepared to hire folks like us. Python has
sufficient maturity to break into the big leagues and all people could care
about is that it looks sufficiently amateurish so that the linux k33d would
use it.
Just because it is opensource and free doesn't mean that it has to look like
any other opensource website.
Chui
"Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters" <me...@gnosis.cx> wrote in message
news:mailman.1062983352...@python.org...
> "Tim Parkin" <tim.p...@pollenationinternet.com> wrote previously:
> |Please could we move this discussion to one of the appropriate lists as
> |well. I suggest python-marketing to begin with.
>
> A marketing list is just not an appropriate forum for discussing
> redesigning the main python website. The page www.python.org just
> simply should not be driven primarily, or even significantly, by
> "marketing" issues... it's us developers who use it, in the overwhelming
> majority.
>
> We developers should not be treated as second class Python users because
> someone got the idea that the page should look like what PHBs expect.
>
> On the other hand... it seems like an entirely different site could look
> like that glossy pamphlet. Maybe something like:
>
> http://python-business.com/
>
> Or even:
>
> http://enterprise.python.com/
>
> Just as long as the main page doesn't get majorly uglified.
>
> Yours, Lulu...
>
> --
> Keeping medicines from the bloodstreams of the sick; food from the bellies
> of the hungry; books from the hands of the uneducated; technology from the
> underdeveloped; and putting advocates of freedom in prisons. Intellectual
> property is to the 21st century what the slave trade was to the 16th.
>
Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters
|> subtle but important difference from the dirty word.
Alex Martelli <al...@aleax.it> wrote previously:
|Nope -- it's "marketing" as defined in textbooks of economics
Ahh... that begs the question[*]. I do not believe that Economics is
the relevant field to consult as to the purpose of the python.org
website. Economists give only economic answers to questions, and that's
not the particular song-and-dance that interests me (FWIW, I've
published in an Economics journal, and taken graduate economics
courses--albeit suspiciously lefty ones--so my eschewal comes from
something other than simple ignorance).
If we decide our textbook should be one about Sociology, or Psychology,
or Anthropology, or Communications, the false generality for the term
'marketing' evaporates. IOW, I'm more interested in what Thorstein
Veblen would say than in what Ludwig von Mises would say :-). Or for
that matter, I'd rather consult Erving Goffman.
Yours, Lulu...
[*] Has anyone else noticed how horribly misused this phrase has
become... including in a televised ad series by Adobe for Acrobat.
Graham Fawcett
>In article <mailman.1062997392...@python.org>,
>Graham Fawcett <faw...@teksavvy.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Rather than throw stones, I have created a *brand new design* design for
>>Python.org. I am certain that will satisfy both the technical users and
>>the suit-wearing investigators. It borrows the time-honoured stylings of
>>the old Python site, and blends them with some upscale business moxy.
>>
>>Take a look:
>>
>>http://tinyurl.com/mlcv
>>
>>
>
>Many people, me included, won't follow tinyurl links; please provide a
>standard URL, too.
>
>
Okay. But please understand that my design is a *joke*... should have
added a <wink> in there somewhere.
Do *not* send comments to anyone, esp. the marketing list! I've made my
apologies there already.
http://fawcett.medialab.uwindsor.ca/python_org_redesign/
Thanks for the heads-up re: tinyurl. I realize that some unfriendly folk
may enjoy sending people to goatse or some similarly unsavoury site; I
guess I haven't been burned and have enjoyed the brevity of those URLs.
it-all-seemed-funnier-at-two-in-the-morning'ly yours,
-- Graham
Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters
|> subtle but important difference from the dirty word.
Alex Martelli <al...@aleax.it> wrote previously:
|Nope -- it's "marketing" as defined in textbooks of economics
Ahh... that begs the question[*]. I do not believe that Economics is
the relevant field to consult as to the purpose of the python.org
website. Economists give only economic answers to questions, and that's
not the particular song-and-dance that interests me (FWIW, I've
published in an Economics journal, and taken graduate economics
courses--albeit suspiciously lefty ones--so my eschewal comes from
something other than simple ignorance).
If we decide our textbook should be one about Sociology, or Psychology,
or Anthropology, or Communications, the false generality for the term
'marketing' evaporates. IOW, I'm more interested in what Thorstein
Veblen would say than in what Ludwig von Mises would say :-). Or for
that matter, I'd rather consult Erving Goffman.
Yours, Lulu...
[*] Has anyone else noticed how horribly misused this phrase has
become... including in a televised ad series by Adobe for Acrobat.
--
Keeping medicines from the bloodstreams of the sick; food from the bellies
of the hungry; books from the hands of the uneducated; technology from the
underdeveloped; and putting advocates of freedom in prisons. Intellectual
property is to the 21st century what the slave trade was to the 16th.
-
Tim Parkin
often
>|misused as an inappropriate synonym for "selling".
>
> 1. The act or process of buying and selling in a market.
> 2. The commercial functions involved in transferring goods from
> producer to consumer.
> --------------------
> The American Heritage (r) Concise Dictionary of the English Language,
> Third Edition. Copyright (c) 1992 Houghton Mifflin Company.
>
>In other words, 'marketing' is a synonym for 'selling' (commercially).
>
>subtle but important difference from the dirty word.
This is totally misconstrued pedantry
Sell - 7 a Advertise or publish the merits of.
b give (a person) information on the value of something.
inspire with a desire to buy or acquire or agree to
something.
Tim
Aahz
Skip Montanaro
Dave> I don't know of any problem with tinyurls - *any* server can
Dave> provide a "bad" redirect; as with any URL whether or not you
Dave> follow it depends on the context and on how much you trust the
Dave> sender.
The only other reasons I could think of to object to tiny urls are:
* Perhaps the tinyurl folks are not trustworthy (are they keeping track of
your browsing habits and selling that info?). That seems unlikely, since
they don't appear to be storing cookies in my browser.
* The tinyurl website can become a bottleneck, preventing people from
getting where they want to go. The tinyurl.com website seems to be fairly
unreachable for me at the moment, though this is the first time I've seen
this, and it appears to be a problem more with Northwestern's connection
to the net than tinyurl.com's.
* There's no guarantee tiny urls will remain unique or even available for
long periods of time. Their current practice of using four lower-case
letters suggests they have space for about 450,000 unique URLs before
extending to a fifth letter.
Skip
Dave Brueck
> Aahz wrote:
> >Many people, me included, won't follow tinyurl links; please provide a
> >standard URL, too.
> Thanks for the heads-up re: tinyurl. I realize that some unfriendly folk
> may enjoy sending people to goatse or some similarly unsavoury site; I
> guess I haven't been burned and have enjoyed the brevity of those URLs.
I don't know of any problem with tinyurls - *any* server can provide a "bad"
redirect; as with any URL whether or not you follow it depends on the context
and on how much you trust the sender. Maybe Aahz has another reason in mind,
but I don't know of any reason to stop using them.
-Dave
Peter Hansen
* You can't tell ahead of time what site you are going to be redirected to.
As a result, you lose complete freedom to choose whether or not you should
follow the link. (Note for the imprecise: I didn't say you completely lose
freedom, I said you lose complete freedom.)
-Peter
John J. Lee
[...]
> * The tinyurl website can become a bottleneck, preventing people from
> getting where they want to go. The tinyurl.com website seems to be fairly
> unreachable for me at the moment, though this is the first time I've seen
> this, and it appears to be a problem more with Northwestern's connection
> to the net than tinyurl.com's.
Apparently not: I can't reach it either.
> * There's no guarantee tiny urls will remain unique or even available for
> long periods of time. Their current practice of using four lower-case
> letters suggests they have space for about 450,000 unique URLs before
> extending to a fifth letter.
Good practice to give both URLs, I suppose -- easier to cut-n-paste
the tinyurl, but the original one has a better chance of still working
later.
John
David Mertz
|* You can't tell ahead of time what site you are going to be redirected to.
| As a result, you lose complete freedom to choose whether or not you should
| follow the link.
As Dave Brueck noted, the same is true of ANY URL. I use a few
redirects on my own website, so just because you think you are going to
a gnosis.cx address doesn't mean you'll wind up there. In an innocuous
case, the URL <http://gnosis.cx/TpiP/> redirects you to my actual book
page (which differs in capitalization)--this just addresses a typo AW
made on my jacket. Even so, the page you wind up seeing has a different
URL that what you copy to your browser. A slightly greater change is
with <http://gnosis.cx/voting-project/>, which directs you to an
entirely different host (for now, I might more it to the same host
later). While there's no malice here, readers had no idea they would
wind up on gnosis.python-hosting.com.
If I wanted to be REALLY malicious, I could post a link like:
:-).
Yours, David...
--
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