even more questions about fruit wines
LG1111
Jack's recipes last summer. The wines are all well balanced, with a pleasant
amount of tannin, acidity, etc. The only concern that I have is that some of
them (blueberry, blackberry, pear) seem to lack body or intense flavor. Maybe
I'm being too critical, but this is my question: Next time, should I just add
more fruit and less water? I've usually used about 4 pounds of berries to make
a gallon of wine, but the blueberry especially tastes like I should have added
another few pounds. Maybe I should just get more flavorful berries, but the
ones I used were pretty good. Or, should I add something like raisins or
bananas.
Jack, if you read this, I can't thank you enough. Your website is great.
Lee
Greg Cook
"LG1111" <lg1...@aol.com> wrote:
For many fruits I'm definitely in Ben Rotter's camp on using more fruit than
what is typically called for in recipes. IF you think your blueberry is
lacking in body and flavor, by all means, add more fruit and try it out.
That's the fun of winemaking - experimenting to make what you like.
----Greg
prairi...@hotmail.com
http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/instruct/grcook/wine/
Paul Lehmann
I am in favor of adding as much fruit as possible without causing an excess
of acidity. From my experience, for some fruits like peaches and red
raspberries an amount over 4 pounds per gallon will result in excess acid.
I choose not to mask over acidity by sweetening with excess sugar.
Greg Cook
<pleh...@fred.net> wrote:
>>
>> For many fruits I'm definitely in Ben Rotter's camp on using more fruit
>> than what is typically called for in recipes. IF you think your blueberry
>> is lacking in body and flavor, by all means, add more fruit and try it
>> out. That's the fun of winemaking - experimenting to make what you like.
>>
>
> I am in favor of adding as much fruit as possible without causing an excess
> of acidity. From my experience, for some fruits like peaches and red
> raspberries an amount over 4 pounds per gallon will result in excess acid.
> I choose not to mask over acidity by sweetening with excess sugar.
>
Sure, it's all about balance. Nearly all fruit wine recipes that call for
3-4 pounds of fruit per gallon also include the addition of acid. So, it
would seem that nearly all of them could include more fruit.
----Greg
prairi...@hotmail.com
http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/instruct/grcook/wine/
CompostKing
made quite a few. Then I made a Rhubarb wine and used white raisins in the
recipe. This white wine, aged two years was simply incredible. A classy
full-bodied white wine that guests actually thought was a white grape wine.
Since then I have always use raisins and I must tell you that my wines are
so much better. The individual fruit flavor (I use 4 lbs. to gal. of
berries) remains, but is supported by the full body the raisins give. With
mildly flavored fruits like apple, peach, pear, etc. I use one half pound to
a gal. of raisins..what a difference! I grind my raisins up in a food
processor before addition to the must. GBA
Ed
LG1111 <lg1...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020326101348...@mb-bh.aol.com...
Jack Keller
> pear) seem to lack body or intense flavor.
Lee, thank you for your kind words. I am most pleased you have
generally made decent or even good wines. Your concern, noted above,
is actually two concerns.
The first is the absence of body in some of the wines. This is
addressed in many places on my site, but the addressing is sometimes
oblique rather than straight on. It boils down, however, to this.
Many fruit produce thin wines unless supplemented with a body-building
fruit such as grape (dried ones work VERY well, but so does juice from
concentrate), banana, appricot, or date. For 30 years I used raisina,
dates and bananas almost exclusively for body, but about 8 years ago I
began using one 11½-ounce can of Welch's 100% Grape Juice (White or
Red) Frozen Concentrate per gallon of wine and found it much easier
than forcing raisins through a mincer. Most of the recipes you'll
find on my site that do NOT use a body enhancer are from other
sources, although I have made quite a few wines myself from fruit
alone.
The second concern you raise has to do with flavor. You actually have
two avenues you can follow to intensify the lacking flavor. First, as
others have advised, you can add more fruit. If you do this, simply
reduce the amount of supplemental sugar, acid and possibly tannin,
while adding, when needed, a bit more pectic enzyme. The alternative
is to simply get more flavorful fruit.
I don't know where you get your fruit, but let me give you the benefit
of the doubt and assume you either grow your own or pick them fresh
and absolutely at the peak of ripeness at a "U-pick-'em" farm. I
would then suggest that you begin looking for a more flavorful
variety.
Last year my wife and I picked strawberries at a friend's farm. After
we had picked more than we could actually use, my friend came out to
the field, looked at our flats of berries, and asked why we hadn't
picked any of his "Cheyenne" berries. I replied that I hadn't even
heard of that variety and, besides, the ones we picked were fine. At
that he led us to several rows of ripe but unattractive berries --
unattractive only because of their very large, yellow seeds. He
picked one and handed it to me. I bit into it and, well, it was a
transforming moment. The flavor of the ones we picked was very, very
good, but this was fantastic. He smiled and handed me an empty flat.
My back was already killing me, but the torture to come was endured
only because I ate every 10th or 12th berry I picked.
The point is, there is good flavor and there is fantastic flavor.
Seek out the fantastic. The same goes for blackberries, pears,
blueberries, peaches, plums, etc. -- and even grapes! (Who would have
thought it so?) It goes without saying that if you buy your fruit
from your grocer you are buying fruit that was picked at least a week
(and possibly two) before it reached ripeness.
Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/
Ben Rotter
Everyone's given you great advice so far.
Being an advocate of using large quantities of fruit, I'd encourage
you to focus more on fruit quality and an increase in fruit quantity
(well above 50% fruit weight by volume of final wine) whilst keeping
balance considerations in mind.
As others have mentioned, high acidity is the predominant problem with
using high-quantities of fruit. Solutions to this are available,
however, through fruit/wine blending, chemical deacification and
malolactic fermentation, or a combination of all three.
Extra body will come with an increased quantity of fruit, but body
building (by the use of bananas, raisins, grape juice and fruit
blending) is an additional option as others have mentioned.
I'd also encourage the use of cold fermentation and fruit maceration
(where appropriate) to increase and retain fruit flavours.
Ben
Improved Winemaking
http://members.tripod.com/~BRotter/
Jeff Cupp
I don't quite understand what you mean by "50% fruit weight by volume of
final wine".
Would you care to list your recommended amounts of various fruits per
gallon?
I would love to experiment with different amounts of fruit, but some
ain't cheap enough to play with, so your experiences would be valued.
Jeff
Ben Rotter
> I don't quite understand what you mean by "50% fruit weight by volume of
> final wine".
50% of the total final wine volume by weight is the fruit weight. It
works best in metric and assumes that the weight of wine is roughly
equal to the weight of water (fairly close). If the weight of wine is
equal to the weight of water then the volume of water is (in metric)
equivalent to the weight of wine.
Perhaps it's a bad representation to use as it doesn't work nicely in
non-metric and is therefore not as useful for Americans.
Anyway, 50% weight/volume would be 500 g/l and 50% of a US gallon
would be 1.9 kg (0.5*3.79 liters) which is 4 lb. Therefore, if you use
50% fruit weight/volume you would use 500 g/l or 4 lb fruit per US
gallon (or 5lb/Imp.gal.).
Of course, it would be better to express the yield of juice a fruit
gives as this is more representative of what makes up the must (i.e.
the must contains 30% juice is more representative than saying you
used a certain weight of fruit) but the (unfortunate) convention in
the non-grape winemaking world is to quote fruit weight with no regard
to the juice yield of the fruit. Quoting both would be the optimum.
> Would you care to list your recommended amounts of various fruits per
> gallon?
Using the amount of juice is perhaps a better way to cover what I've
done:
Over the last few years I've been experimenting with between 60-100%
juice (i.e. 60-100% of the must is fruit juice) - you use whatever
weight of fruit you have to to get that volume of juice. I'd go at or
around 50% (i.e. half of the must is juice and the other is
water/sugar/etc) with most fruits and I'd encourage any interested in
flavoursome wines to aim for pure juice fermentations. The problem
with this approach is obtaining good balance. It can be done well,
it's just more difficult than when using lower quantities of
fruit/juice.
For actual examples, I've had great success with 100% peach, 50-60%
strawberry, 50-65% flower wines, and 100% raspberry. I'm still
experimenting though, and with some fruits such as elderberry
(65-100%) I have yet to master the balance.
> I would love to experiment with different amounts of fruit, but some
> ain't cheap enough to play with, so your experiences would be valued.
It is more expensive, but if you get it right it's well worth it!
Hope the above answered your question sufficiently (feel free to post
again if not),
Ben
Lib
experience tells me 100% fruit is the best.
While arguing this point, the subject of high acid fruits always comes
up. The arguement is that some fruits contain too high an acid thus
making it necessary to add water. Raspberries always is identified as
one of these fruits.
I have been making raspberry wine for several years. The TA on ripe
North East Red Raspberries is about .5
This is not a highly acidic fruit. The wine does have bitter or tart
characterictics but a residual sugar of 5-7% balances this out nicely.
Once again, I cant see a reason to add water to a raspberry wine
recipe unless you are trying to save money. Any water added to my
100% raspberry wine would only take away from the big, in your face,
raspberry aroma that hits you when you stick your nose in the glass.
Lib
Ben Rotter
> This is not a highly acidic fruit. The wine does have bitter or tart
> characterictics but a residual sugar of 5-7% balances this out nicely.
> Once again, I cant see a reason to add water to a raspberry wine
> recipe unless you are trying to save money. Any water added to my
> 100% raspberry wine would only take away from the big, in your face,
> raspberry aroma that hits you when you stick your nose in the glass.
I can't agree more!! I have a similar well balanced raspberry that's
just finished fermenting. Thanks for posting this, it's nice to know
there are other people out there doing the same thing and feeling the
same way about it
Ben
Rick Vanderwal
comes from the fruit serves as your must.....?
you add NO Water?
that's a TON of fruit for a 3, 5, or 6 gallon batch!!!!!!
Unless you have access to an abundance of fruit, free, etc., then that gets
kind of pricey!
But sounds like a good plan...
a friend of mine told me I could pick his blackberries this summer.
can't wait!
I still have elderberries in my freezer from last season, haven't known yet
what to do with them because of the elderberry goo problem that I fear that
will happen. I'd like to get a foodprocesser/juice extractor, take the
juice, boil it to break down the acid, and then use that blended with the
blackberries to try a wine...
Rick
"Lib" <close...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d10b47f1.02032...@posting.google.com...
Dewey & Lucy Thompson
tells me 100% fruit
> is the best. While arguing this point, the subject of high acid fruits
always comes up.
> The arguement is that some fruits contain too high an acid thus making it
necessary to
> add water. Raspberries always is identified as one of these fruits.
Raspberries don't have high acid. There are fruits that do have quite high
acid. I toy with an interesting little fruit called "Autum Olive". That IS
high acid, and I have to dilute to get the total acid down where it needs to
be.
The reason that I would never make wine from 100% raspberry juice is the
overpowering taste. I have made raspberry wine from 3, 4, and 5 pounds per
gallon, 5 pounds per gallon is overwhelming. Using 8-9 pounds to get all
juice would be indescribable (and not in a good way).
> Once again, I cant see a reason to add water to a raspberry wine
> recipe unless you are trying to save money. Any water added to my
> 100% raspberry wine would only take away from the big, in your face,
> raspberry aroma that hits you when you stick your nose in the glass.
That it would......That it would.
Dewey
Dewey & Lucy Thompson
> so, does that mean that you just use 100% fruit, and the liquid alone that
> comes from the fruit serves as your must.....?
> you add NO Water?
> that's a TON of fruit for a 3, 5, or 6 gallon batch!!!!!!
Depends upon the fruit. Elderberries can be used at about 9-10 pounds per
gallon. Blackberries come in at about 8-9 pounds per gallon. The difficulty
is whether it is really worth it. 9 pounds of blackberries will make 2
gallons of "good" wine, and 1-1/2 gallons of "great" wine. If you make only
one gallon, is the quality improved proportionally? Generally not methinks.
> I still have elderberries in my freezer from last season, haven't known
yet
> what to do with them because of the elderberry goo problem that I fear
that
> will happen. I'd like to get a foodprocesser/juice extractor, take the
> juice, boil it to break down the acid, and then use that blended with the
> blackberries to try a wine...
I don't bother boiling elderberry juice. I do freeze the berries, then thaw
them out and run them through a juicer to extract the juice from the pulp
and seeds.
I don't have nearly as much of a "goo" problem as some others report. There
is a bit of a scum on the primary fermenter, but a soapy steel wool (SOS)
pad takes it out nicely. The secondary might have a slight sheen of greeish
tinge, this comes out nicely with a carboy brush.
Get off your duff and make some elderberry wine.
:o)
It's worth it.
Dewey
Greg Cook
be57c79f.0203...@posting.google.com, "Ben Rotter"
<benr...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
I had a chokecherry wine made by a friend of mine that was 100% fruit. It
was a little sweet to balance the fruit and was absolutely the best
chokecherry wine I have ever had. It turned out very much like a port in
body and flavor.
----Greg
prairi...@hotmail.com
http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/instruct/grcook/wine/
Lib
> overpowering taste. I have made raspberry wine from 3, 4, and 5 pounds per
> gallon, 5 pounds per gallon is overwhelming. Using 8-9 pounds to get all
> juice would be indescribable (and not in a good way).
>
> Dewey
Riveside International wine competition issued a gold medal to a
Raspberry wine made from 100% Red Raspberries. Some wine judges would
disagree with you.
Lib
Lib
> overpowering taste. I have made raspberry wine from 3, 4, and 5 pounds per
> gallon, 5 pounds per gallon is overwhelming. Using 8-9 pounds to get all
> juice would be indescribable (and not in a good way).
>
> Dewey
Jonathan Sachs
>high acidity is the predominant problem... Solutions...
>chemical deacification...
I'm trying to learn how to make a good wine from the wild plums that
grow in my yard. High acidity seems to be my most serious problem. I
wonder whether you know any good chemical techniques for lowering
acidity apart from adding calcium carbonate, which I have found
helpful but insufficient. (I'm going to try malolactic fermentation
too, but I like to pursue multiple strategies in parallel wherever
possible.)
I also took the repeated empahsis on fruit quality to heart, and I'm
starting to think that if I'm serious about this (that is, if I want
to spend any time and money on it at all), I might best chop down the
wild trees and plant domestic varieties that will give me better
material to work with. I'd like to ask what others' experience has
been with different varieties of plums. Should I simply choose the
one with the least-acid fruit? Or, should I assume that any domestic
variety will have a manageable acid level and look for the fruit that
tastes best to me? Or, should I restrict my choices to one or more
particular varieties which have been found to produce good results?
Send email to jsachs177 at earthlink dot net.
Greg Cook
"Jonathan Sachs" <nob...@nospam.net> wrote:
> benr...@yahoo.co.uk (Ben Rotter) wrote:
>
>> high acidity is the predominant problem... Solutions...
>> chemical deacification...
>
> I'm trying to learn how to make a good wine from the wild plums that
> grow in my yard. High acidity seems to be my most serious problem. I
> wonder whether you know any good chemical techniques for lowering
> acidity apart from adding calcium carbonate, which I have found
> helpful but insufficient. (I'm going to try malolactic fermentation
> too, but I like to pursue multiple strategies in parallel wherever
> possible.)
Have you thought about blending your plums with some other low acid fruit?
----Greg
prairi...@hotmail.com
http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/instruct/grcook/wine/
frederick ploegman
and try using Lalvin 71B-1122 yeast which will consume some of the
Malic acid during ferment. Hope this helps.
Greg Cook <prairi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:B8CB25BD.7E2C%prairi...@hotmail.com...
Ben Rotter
> wonder whether you know any good chemical techniques for lowering
> acidity apart from adding calcium carbonate, which I have found
> helpful but insufficient. (I'm going to try malolactic fermentation
> too, but I like to pursue multiple strategies in parallel wherever
> possible.)
Multiple strategies might include: chemical deacidification, acid
metabolisation by a yeast (eg use Lalvin's 71B-1122 which can
metabolise 20-40% of the malic acid in the must during fermentation)
or acid metabolisation by Lactobacillus plantarum (a pre-fermentation
biological deacidification of malic acid which can reduce malic acid
by 40-60% (available from CHR Hansen)), malolactic fermentation, a
residual sweetness balancing, or post fermentation wine blending.
I remember the "high acid fruit must; pulp; sugar; some questions"
covered this issue.
From that thread, an example of a multiple deacidification strategy
might go:
19 ppt (as sulph. = 29 ppt as tartaric). Use about 9 g/l K2CO3
(potassium bicarbonate - this avoids the chalkiness of calcium,
deacidifies to a greater extent for the same mass of powder, and the
potassium can be precipitated out when cold stabilising) to reduce
acid to 10 g/l sulph. (15.4 g/l as tartaric), then ferment with
Lalvin's 71B-1122 yeast reducing acidity by 40% to 6 (9.2 tart.), then
conduct a malolactic fermentation finally reducing acidity to 4 g/l
(6.1 as tart.).
> I also took the repeated empahsis on fruit quality to heart, and I'm
> starting to think that if I'm serious about this (that is, if I want
> to spend any time and money on it at all), I might best chop down the
> wild trees and plant domestic varieties that will give me better
> material to work with. I'd like to ask what others' experience has
I'd definitely go with that. Cultivated fruit is almost always
superior.
> been with different varieties of plums. Should I simply choose the
> one with the least-acid fruit? Or, should I assume that any domestic
I'd say you should consider the other elements too such as sugar
concentration, tannin content, and flavour development etc.
> variety will have a manageable acid level and look for the fruit that
> tastes best to me? Or, should I restrict my choices to one or more
I'd go for manageable acid levels, but not at the expense of the
aformentioned attributes.
> particular varieties which have been found to produce good results?
Try a whole range of choices if possible. I haven't experimented with
enough varieties at all but I have found Spanish Friar plums pretty
good and Victoria plums are nutorious for making good plum wine
(though I can't speak from personal experience on the latter). I'd
actually encourage using a blend of different varieties of plums -
this results in increased complexity, and even a certain degree of
balancing of the resulting juice.
Hope that helps - let me know if there's anything else I can add.
Jeff Cupp
fermentation, approximately how much juice could I expect to get from 35
pounds of sliced frozen peaches. Would around 2.5 gallons be about
right? Right now I only have one 5gal carboy empty, so I need to make
enough to fill it & hopefully have around 3 more liters to save for
topping.
Also at what temp would adding pectic enzyme be best? They have come up
to 33 degrees in the past 24 hours.
Jeff
Ben Rotter
> In another post I've described my thawing peaches. If pressed prior to
> fermentation, approximately how much juice could I expect to get from 35
> pounds of sliced frozen peaches. Would around 2.5 gallons be about
> right? Right now I only have one 5gal carboy empty, so I need to make
> enough to fill it & hopefully have around 3 more liters to save for
> topping.
Of course it depends on your extraction method and the peaches
themselves but I usually get 500 ml juice per kg of fruit. That would
give 2.1 US gallons given 35 pounds of fruit. Given the 500 ml/kg
figure, you'd need 44 kg of fruit for the 5 US gallon carboy plus 3
litres for topping. But your peaches may well be juicier than mine :)
> Also at what temp would adding pectic enzyme be best? They have come up
> to 33 degrees in the past 24 hours.
Their effectiveness increases with an increase in temperature. They
generally work over a temperature range of -5 to 60 C (25 to 140 F).
The effect roughly doubles with each (approx.) 5 C (10 F) temperature
increase.
BTW, 33 C is quite hot - many yeast die around 35 C or so. I'd
encourage you to try and cool it down if you can at all, but perhaps
you know this already and it is difficult for you.
Hope that helps,
Ben
Jeff Cupp
hours the peaches are up to 62 F.
I thank you and everyone else for your suggestions based upon
experience & the time you took to address my questions.
Since this is all the peaches I have & it would cost over $130US to do
44kg worth, I think I must crush the fruit & begin pulp fermentation
tomorrow with my 35 lbs for a 5 gallon batch.
Hopefully later this year I can obtain very ripe locally grown peaches
at a low cost & use your methods. They sound great!
Thanks Alot!
Jeff
Jack Keller
per gallon and it has always been good, except once when I suffered a
stuck fermentation early on, didn't catch it, and the must spoiled
(soured). You are using 7 lbs per gallon. I would not even think
twice about it -- just do it. I would do as you are doing -- begin
pulp fermentation at once. You will get far more of the natural peach
flavor, aroma and sugar than if you did a juice extraction up front
and fermented that.
Having frozen and thawed you peaches, expect to get a lot of gross
pulp lees. You can control this somewhat by putting your pulp in
nylon straining bags and tying them off. Two bags ought to do it.
Jonathan Sachs
>Multiple strategies might include... Lalvin's 71B-1122
I'm using that. Too soon to tell whether it's going to help.
>acid metabolisation by Lactobacillus plantarum
That's interesting possibility that I haven't heard of before. I
checked Hanson's web site, and found that they sell it in a politician
intended to treat 660 gallons. Since I'm currently experimenting with
one gallon at a time, that would be difficult to use -- and probably
expensive! Still, it will be something to keep in mind.
I also hadn't heard of using potassium bicarbonate before, and that
sounds woth a try.
I've been using multiple strategies, as you suggested, experimenting
with different combinations of things. Here's one which produced one
of my two best results so far (out of nine batches):
Freeze plums, then thaw completely and press. (They were
frozen summer. This year I hope to process them more promptly!)
Simmer one pound of bananas in enough water to cover
until soft.
56 oz juice from pressed plums
6 oz pulp from pressed plums
84 oz water, including banana water
0.4 oz calcium carbonate
12 oz sugar
11 ml 10% sulphite solution
Those are just one-off numbers; I devised the actual recipe in terms
of acid control. Working backward from a post-fermentation target of
4.3 ppt acid, I wanted the must at 6.0 ppt. The calcium carbonate
would lower it 3 ppt, so I diluted the juice with enough water to
lower the acid level from the original 19 ppt to 9 ppt. Then I added
the bananas for body. The amount sugar was chosen to raise the initial
brix to 18 (from 11).
One day later:
3/4 tsp pectic enzyme (stirred in)
1.25 g Lalvin 71B-1122 (floating on top)
>I'd definitely go with that. Cultivated fruit is almost always
>superior....
From your further comments, it appears that I will have to get several
varieties of fruit and try them. I certainly don't want to plant a
tree, wait several years while it grows enough to produce fruit, and
then decide that I don't like it!
The plums available in stores are the common commercial varieties. I
haven't checked my local produce market, but I would expect the
dealers to have the same selection, since they must be supplying many
of the stores. Does anyone have suggestions on how to find specific
varieties in reasonable quantities and in top condition? (By the way,
I live near San Francisco.)
Jonathan Sachs
reach your server. After I sent it I found that I had not proofread
the whole thing, and my speech recognition software inserted several
hilarious bloopers. Normally I typed, but I'm recovering from carpal
tunnel surgery, and cannot type much right now.)
benr...@yahoo.co.uk (Ben Rotter) wrote:
>Multiple strategies might include... Lalvin's 71B-1122
I'm using that. Too soon to tell whether it's going to help.
>acid metabolisation by Lactobacillus plantarum
That's an interesting possibility that I haven't heard of before. I
checked Hansen's web site, and found that they sell it in a pouch
intended to treat 660 gallons. Since I'm currently experimenting on
one gallon at a time, that would be difficult to use -- and probably
expensive! Still, it will be something to keep in mind.
I also hadn't heard of using potassium bicarbonate before, and that
sounds worth a try.
I've been using multiple strategies, as you suggested, trying
different combinations of things. Here's a recipe which produced one
of my two best results so far (out of nine batches):
Freeze plums, then thaw completely and press. (They were
frozen last summer. This year I hope to process them more
promptly!)
Simmer one pound of bananas in enough water to cover
until soft.
56 oz juice from pressed plums
6 oz pulp from pressed plums
84 oz water, including banana water
0.4 oz calcium carbonate
12 oz sugar
11 ml 10% sulphite solution
Those are just one-off numbers; I devised the actual recipe in terms
of acid control. Working backward from a post-fermentation target of
4.3 ppt acid, I wanted the must to start at 6.0 ppt. The calcium
carbonate would lower it 3 ppt, so I diluted the juice with enough
water to lower the acid level from the original 19 ppt to 9 ppt. Then
I added the bananas for body. The sugar was measured to raise the
initial brix to 18 (from 11).
One day later:
3/4 tsp pectic enzyme (stirred in)
1.25 g Lalvin 71B-1122 (floating on top)
>I'd definitely go with that. Cultivated fruit is almost always
>superior....
From your further comments, it appears that I will have to get several
varieties of fruit and try them. I certainly don't want to plant a
tree, wait several years while it grows enough to produce fruit, and
then decide that I don't like it!
The plums I can buy in stores are the common commercial varieties. I
haven't checked my local produce market, but I would expect the
dealers to have the same selection, since they must be supplying many
of the stores. Does anyone have suggestions on how to find specific
varieties in reasonable quantities and in top condition? (By the way,
I live near San Francisco.)
Send email to jsachs177 at earthlink dot net.
Jonathan Sachs
of these I plan to use potassium bicarbonate instead of calcium
carbonate to reduce the initial acid level of the must. How should I
decide how much I can add without risking untoward side effects?
Jonathan Sachs
are the differences between potassium carbonate and potassium
bicarbonate?
I asked for potassium bicarbonate at a local wine/beer makers' store.
They sold me a package labeled "potassium carbonate." The sales clerk
said he thought they were the same thing. I expressed some
reservations, so he asked an older guy (perhaps the owner) who
confirmed that they were.
I just checked some Web sites and found that they definitely are not
the same. The formula you mentioned for potassium bicarbonate (K2CO3)
actually appears to be the formula for potassium carbonate. (Potassium
bicarbonate is KHCO3. See, for example,
http://www.armandproducts.com/armd_ourprdts.html.)
Which leaves me totally in the dark about which one I should use, or
whether it even matters!
Guy
"Jonathan Sachs" wrote:
>what are the differences between potassium carbonate and potassium
bicarbonate?
From http://shop.piwine.com/shopsite/prwc/product75.html
Potassium Bicarbonate, powder, food grade
Used to reduce the acidity of musts and wines. Avoid using if the pH
is above 3.5 or if you need to reduce more than a maximum of about
0.3%. It may be used close to bottling time if you cold stabilize
after using it. About 30% of the potential acid reduction occurs
during cold stabilization. It causes a greater rise in pH than calcium
carbonate for an equivalent reduction in acidity. 3.4 grams per gallon
will lower acidity by about 0.1%.
They don't list Potassium Carbonate
From: http://home.att.net/~lumeisenman/chapt4.html
Potassium Carbonate
Potassium carbonate is often used to deacidify juice and wine instead
of calcium carbonate. However, when this material is added to wine,
the potassium content can be increased significantly. The additional
potassium can cause increases in wine pH, so potassium carbonate must
be used carefully.
Besides increasing pH, a stability problem sometimes occurs because
the potassium reacts with tartaric acid in the wine. Potassium
bitartrate is formed, and unless this material is removed, it can
precipitate out of the wine after bottling. Because of this
instability problem, potassium carbonates should not be used after
wine has been cold stabilized.
Lum did not list potassium Bicarbonate!
Ed Goist wrote:
«I learned something today which I wanted to share with the group,
since it is a piece of info which I have not seen posted here before.
Specifically, there are 2 potassium salts which can be used to
de-acidify a must/wine:
1. The commonly refered to Potassium Bicarbonate, which is used at a
rate of 3.4g/USGal to reduce acid by -1g/L. &
2. Potassium Carbonate, which is used at a rate of 2.4g/USGal to
reduce acid by -1g/L. Additionaly, potassium carbonate can be used in
solution form. The soultion is made by combining 46g of potassium
carbonate with 100 ml of water. The addition of 5ml/USGal of this
solution will result in an acid reduction of -1g/L.
In the case of both potassium bicarbonate & potassium carbonate, the
majority of acid reduction takes place when the wine is cold
stabilized after the addition of the agents.
The benefit of potassium bicarbonate is that it tends to leave less of
a "salty" or "bitter" taste than potassium carbonate, while the
benefits of potassium carbonate are that you need to use less (30%
less) for an equal amount of de-acidification, and that it tend to
affect pH less than
potassium bicarbonate.
Bottom line: Be aware that there are 2 distinct potassium salts used
for de-acidification & make sure that you know which one you have &
what your recommended usage rates should be».
Tom S wrote:
«The difference between these is potassium bicarbonate is a partially
neutralized form of potassium carbonate. It (KHCO3) already has one
proton, whereas K2CO3 has none. That makes K2CO3 more alkaline, and
therefore a bit less gentle than the bicarbonate.
However, I see no reason why there should be any difference between
two samples of the same wine, one of which has been acid reduced with
K2CO3 and the other with KHCO3, as long as they are titrated to the
same pH and cold stabilized to precipitate the KHT. The reaction
products are the same - CO2, H2O and KHT.
Personally, I prefer to use KOH, which is not as messy, because there
is no gaseous byproduct - just water and KHT».
Greatferm wrote:
«Better yet, use Acidex, which contains a double-salt of Malic acid,
and can
remove both Tartaric and Malic acid».
Lum Eisenman wrote:
«Seems to be some confusion about the "double salt" method of acid
reduction.
When a weak base like calcium carbonate is added to wine, the calcium
carbonate combines with tartaric acid and produces calcium tartrate (a
salt), water and carbon dioxide. The calcium carbonate also combines
with malic acid and produces calcium malate (a salt), water and carbon
dioxide. But, more tartaric acid than malic acid is removed from the
wine
because of the physical properties of the acids ( the disassociation
constants) and the salts (the solubility). In fact, most of the
tartaric acid will be removed before hardly any malic acid is removed.
The acidity of the wine will be reduced, but the acid profile will be
out of balance
(little tartaric acid and excessive much malic acid, so the TA may be
OK, but the pH will be too high).
Winemakers often use a "trick" to remove both malic acid and tartaric
acid from (high acid - high pH) wines by adding the dose of calcium
carbonate to a small portion of the wine rather than to the whole
batch. The volume of the small portion of wine is selected to produce
a pH above 4.5. At the higher pH, enough tartaric and malic ions are
in solution to form the double
salt "calcium tartrate malate." The amount of calcium carbonate and
the quantity of wine must be carefully selected to produce the double
salt.
After the treatment, the small portion of wine is added to the main
batch. In this case, both acids have been reduced, and the acid
profile of the wine is more balanced (the TA is OK and the pH is OK).
When weak bases are used to remove acid, the treated wine should
always be chilled to precipitate any remaining salts from the wine.
The term "double salt" refers to a treatment that removes both
tartaric and malic acids wine by precipitating the double salt
"calcium tartrate malate."
See "Concepts in Wine Chemistry" by Yair Margalit, page 303 and
"Modern
Winemaking" by Philip Jackisch, page 108
http://home.att.net/~lumeisenman/chapt4.html
«Calcium Carbonate
Sometimes, grapes grown in cold climates contain too much acid. Then
winemakers often use calcium carbonates to reduce the acid content of
juice before fermentation. This material is occasionally used to
reduce the acid content of finished wines by small amounts. However,
when carbonates are used to reduce the acidity of a finished wine,
they can change wine flavors, raise pH and cause other problems.
Grapes grown in warm climates are usually low in acid, so carbonates
are seldom used with warm climate fruit».
I heard somebody say stop!
I will,
Guy
Eddie Vanderzeeuw
Potassium carbonate is: K2 CO3. Potassium bicarbonate is: K2(CO3)2.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Eddie V.
"Jonathan Sachs" <nob...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:78hkau0ahgqleenqn...@4ax.com...
Greg Cook
"Eddie Vanderzeeuw" <eddie.va...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Not being a chemist,
> Potassium carbonate is: K2 CO3. Potassium bicarbonate is: K2(CO3)2.
> Correct me if I'm wrong.
> Eddie V.
You're wrong. Potassium bicarbonate is: KHCO3
Here's the difference:
bicarbonate:
O
||
K-O-C-O-H
||
O
carbonate:
O
||
K-O-C-O-K
||
O
----Greg
prairi...@hotmail.com
http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/instruct/grcook/wine/
Jonathan Sachs
>When weak bases are used to remove acid, the treated wine should
>always be chilled to precipitate any remaining salts from the wine.
I didn't know that was necessary with calcium carbonate, which I used
in my previous batches. I'm trying to cold stabilize the two best ones
now. How long does this take? Should I be able to rack the wine as
soon as it's coimpletely chilled, or should I wait longer?
Guy
«Acid Reduction with Calcium Carbonate: For liquors with acid levels
of 10 p.p.t. or more, calcium carbonate is traditionally used to
reduce acid through precipitation. A measured 2.5 grams of calcium
carbonate will reduce the acidity of one gallon of wine or liquor by
one p.p.t. For best results, split the liquor into two equal portions
and add the calcium carbonate to one while stirring vigorously. Carbon
dioxide will be given off and cause foaming. Chill the treated liquor
several days and then siphon it off the lees of calcium carbonate into
the untreated portion. The addition of a teaspoon of yeast energizer
may be required to reactivate fermentation after treatment».
Several days could be the normal cold stabilization period, 14 days.
Guy
Jonathan Sachs
>Several days could be the normal cold stabilization period, 14 days.
Sounds like I'm finally going to have to clean out my fridge...
D Schultz
Both of your models show six.
-Dan
"Greg Cook" <prairi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:B8D063CE.815D%prairi...@hotmail.com...
Greg Cook
>> bicarbonate:
>> O
>> ||
>> K-O-C-O-H
>>
>> carbonate:
>> O
>> ||
>> K-O-C-O-K
I was just teaching my students sulfites and sulfates - my typo.
On 4/4/02 10:07 AM, in article 3cac7700$1...@news.nntpserver.com, "D Schultz"
<schultznw at hormel.msn.com> wrote:
----Greg
prairi...@hotmail.com
http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/instruct/grcook/wine/
Eddie Vanderzeeuw
Eddie V.
"Greg Cook" <prairi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:B8D38DA1.8374%prairi...@hotmail.com...