New games: bouncy rubber?
Josh Hayes
the good luck to play recently: Fish Tales and Whitewater.
They have one thing in common which I find very irritating:
they're the liveliest-bouncing machines I've ever played.
Drop catches must be PERFECT or else the ball bounces
merrily off, brushes a slingshot at 0.0000000001 m/sec,
and zings off somewhere else. It seems like the slingshots
are more sensitive and the flippers more elastic (in the
sense of "elastic collision") then ever before. Try playing
TAF and then playing FT, or WW. Do you notice a difference?
I do. Maybe it's the way our operator (Phaedrus? care to
comment?) sets them up, but these are extremely frustrating
machines for me because I rely on ball control to score well
and while I can make TAF and HSII and others roll over and
beg for mercy, both FT and WW....well...I'm just flailing
away at the ball because I can't CATCH the damn thing.
Note that this is NOT a problem with CBW; a different
manufacturer - different rubber?
Any comments or ideas? Am I just grumpy because I can only
make 4th on the WW high score list?
Josh Hayes
--
Josh Hayes, Quantitative Sciences HR-20 U of Washington
jo...@pogo.cqs.washington.edu 206 543-5004
Scalp 'em, Tantric! Groovy, Kemosabe.
Kevin Martin
>Drop catches must be PERFECT or else the ball bounces
>merrily off, brushes a slingshot at 0.0000000001 m/sec,
Isn't that kind of slow, or does "m" not mean "meters" in that sentence?
>and zings off somewhere else. It seems like the slingshots
>are more sensitive and the flippers more elastic (in the
>sense of "elastic collision") then ever before. Try playing
>TAF and then playing FT, or WW. Do you notice a difference?
>I do. Maybe it's the way our operator (Phaedrus? care to
>comment?) sets them up, but these are extremely frustrating
>machines for me because I rely on ball control to score well
>and while I can make TAF and HSII and others roll over and
>beg for mercy, both FT and WW....well...I'm just flailing
>away at the ball because I can't CATCH the damn thing.
Well, I agree with you to a certain extent on Fish Tales. There's less
room to maneuver on that playfield than on Whitewater, so it makes even
more of a difference. But I haven't had any real problem with Whitewater
in terms of catches and flipper-ball control. Let them get dirty - then
they'll feel slow again.
Actually, the only time you ever really *need* to make any sort of catch
on Whitewater is from the Lost Mine kickout. Otherwise, if you never miss
any of your shots, you'll always be able to reach what you need to hit
next. Of course, if you aren't Lyman or Rick, you'll miss a shot somewhere
along the way and then it's a free-for-all for a while.
I've played a few TAF machines which were like the FT and WW you describe.
>Note that this is NOT a problem with CBW; a different
>manufacturer - different rubber?
Very different. The Gottlieb rubber is very dead - more of a hard, smooth
plastic than the Williams/Bally kind. The W/B kind is softer and wears
down very easily. Actually, the Gottlieb rubber is so slick, I have
trouble with balls which I think I can catch simply with flipper angle
(balls coming down the outlane, for example), which will instead neatly
slide off the flipper. There's lots more traction on W/B rubber.
The Alvin G. guy I spoke with said they were using the stickiest rubber
they could find, more or less - even more lively than Williams/Bally
rubber. He says they'll probably change that, too.
--
Kevin Martin
si...@ipl.rpi.edu
"I told you I'd shoot, but you didn't believe me! WHY didn't you BELIEVE me?!"
Lyman F. Sheats Jr.
Very different. The Gottlieb rubber is very dead - more of a hard, smooth
plastic than the Williams/Bally kind. The W/B kind is softer and wears
down very easily. Actually, the Gottlieb rubber is so slick, I have
trouble with balls which I think I can catch simply with flipper angle
(balls coming down the outlane, for example), which will instead neatly
slide off the flipper. There's lots more traction on W/B rubber.
You know, I'm almost convinced that there's a difference in feel
between the BLY/WMS "red" flipper rubbers and the BLY/WMS "black"
flipper rubbers. It almost feels like I have better ball control
on a game with the black rubbers than I do on a game with the red
rubbers. Maybe it's just me, but the red rubbers feel snappier,
or more bouncy. The black rubbers feel smooth.
I'm still also trying to decide if it's the Gottlieb flippers or
the Gottlieb flipper rubbers that make their games so unlike Data
East and BLY/WMS. With the Gottlieb flippers, I'll try to catch
the ball, but "sproing," the ball's halfway up the playfield!
It'd be nice to find out for sure by putting some red flipper
rubbers on a new Gottlieb game, like Cue Ball or SFII to see if
they make any difference.
--
Lyman F. Sheats Jr.
The MITRE Corporation
202 Burlington Road, Bedford MA 01730
e-mail: l...@mitre.org
Bowen P Kerins
course, I didn't attend PAPA 3 (damn this college life), so I really had no
clue how difficult the games were set - from how Lyman describes it, the game
was set up downright nasty...
I've never seen Mark Conant play, so I really had no idea he was so
good at Death Saves (and sliding the game side-to-side)... this makes the 4OO
loops seem a lot more like no big deal (no offense).
I'm also wondering, though, whether I should spend the money (nearly
$3OO at least) to attend a pinball expo... I'm -pretty- good (best 3.3B on FT),
but I'm sure I'm on the level of Lyman or anybody like that.
Should I go?... and if I do go, what kind of chances might I have at
some compensation (i.e., prize money)?
Again, apologies to Lyman if I mighta offended you... not intended at
all...
Bowen
Michael Jason Lewis
> I made the comment about MCC and the magical 4OO loops on Dr. Who... of
>course, I didn't attend PAPA 3 (damn this college life), so I really had no
>clue how difficult the games were set - from how Lyman describes it, the game
>was set up downright nasty...
> I've never seen Mark Conant play, so I really had no idea he was so
>good at Death Saves (and sliding the game side-to-side)... this makes the 4OO
>loops seem a lot more like no big deal (no offense).
Mark just held court at Keystone Mountain View tonight (I happened to be
practicing my WhiteWater when he came in and took up residence on Star Wars).
He has better aim than me, but not inconceivably better. He is, however,
nearly perfect at saves. I never saw the machine tilt, and I have tilted it
once, but it may not be that sensitive. He had this habit of saving right
ouutlane drains by picking the machine up a tiny bit by the throttle on the
right and by the flipper button (i.e. by pressure) on the left and Death
Saving the ball. I was very impressed.
The guy who does tech on the machines was there tonight too. He's also really
go. He cleaned out all of the machines and did routine maintenance. The
machines there are very well takenn care of.
- Mike Lewis
tr...@leland.stanford.edu
af...@acad2.alaska.edu
> I've been thinking about the two newer games I've had
> the good luck to play recently: Fish Tales and Whitewater.
> They have one thing in common which I find very irritating:
> they're the liveliest-bouncing machines I've ever played.
>
> Drop catches must be PERFECT or else the ball bounces
> merrily off, brushes a slingshot at 0.0000000001 m/sec,
> and zings off somewhere else. It seems like the slingshots
> are more sensitive and the flippers more elastic (in the
> sense of "elastic collision") then ever before. Try playing
> TAF and then playing FT, or WW. Do you notice a difference?
> I do. Maybe it's the way our operator (Phaedrus? care to
> comment?) sets them up, but these are extremely frustrating
> machines for me because I rely on ball control to score well
> and while I can make TAF and HSII and others roll over and
> beg for mercy, both FT and WW....well...I'm just flailing
> away at the ball because I can't CATCH the damn thing.
>
> Note that this is NOT a problem with CBW; a different
> manufacturer - different rubber?
>
> Any comments or ideas? Am I just grumpy because I can only
> make 4th on the WW high score list?
>
I noticed it too. I hypothesize it's because of the new flippers. I took the
damn rubbers off the flippers and compared them with some spares we have for
other machines, and there seems to be no real diff in composition. Possible?
Joel
Lyman F. Sheats Jr.
I'm also wondering, though, whether I should spend the money (nearly
$3OO at least) to attend a pinball expo... I'm -pretty- good (best 3.3B on FT),
but I'm sure I'm on the level of Lyman or anybody like that.
I would suggest that you check one of the three remaining tournaments out.
There are hundreds of good players around, and it sounds like you're one
of them.
Of the three remaining -- Milwaukee in May, Arizona in June, and Pinball
Expo in September, if it's a show/tournament you're looking for, I would
have to recommend Pinball Expo. There are seminars given by the industry
professionals, designers, artists, etc. There are many games set on free
play. There's a factory tour (this year I guess will be Data East), there's
an autograph session, so you can get some of your flyers/books signed
by the people who design the games, and there's a tournament. It's a
great time.
If it's strictly tournament you're looking for, then I would have to suggest
the third annual AMOA/IFPA tournament in Milwaukee in May. They have all kinds
of competitions open to all levels of skill -- doubles, singles, mixed,
single flipper doubles, high single ball, etc, etc. I went last year
with Mike Teixeira and it was a lot of fun. There's also a manufacturer's
division, so you'll even get a chance to meet the people that are designing
the latest games. The manufacturer support for this event is unbelievable.
Should I go?... and if I do go, what kind of chances might I have at
some compensation (i.e., prize money)?
Compensation is usually OK. For instance, Dave Hegge, last year's IFPA
winner, received $550 for winning the pinmaster singles competition. This,
I thought, was rather on the low side for an event being promoted as a
world tournament. The prize at Pinball Expo is a bit more; a new pinball
game, retail value of ~ $3000. Same thing for the Arizona Show -- first
place takes home a new pinball game.
Again, apologies to Lyman if I mighta offended you... not intended at
all...
No one need ever apologize for offending me. You didn't offend me, anyway.
I just wanted to set the record straight about the machine setup and the
difficulty factor. The machines were set up so tough that 400 loops would
be virtually impossible. As it was, I think I went a little too far.
Sorry about that.
Check out a tournament this year. I guess you'd have to consider it
a weekend vacation, but it's usually well worth it. You get to meet
some good people, and get to play some great games.
Steve Baumgarten
I'm also wondering, though, whether I should spend the money
(nearly $3OO at least) to attend a pinball expo... I'm -pretty-
good (best 3.3B on FT), but I'm sure I'm on the level of Lyman or
anybody like that.
Remember, there are "B" and "C" divisions. You might want to start in
"B", and if you do really well, go for "A" next time. The competition
in "B" is still pretty fierce, but at least you don't have to compete
against Lyman, Rick, Rob and Dave in the finals -- not to mention all
the Broadway talent.
--
Steve Baumgarten | "New York... when civilization falls apart,
PANIX, New York, NY | remember, we were way ahead of you."
|
Email: s...@panix.com | - David Letterman
u...@felix.filenet.com
>I've been thinking about the two newer games I've had
>the good luck to play recently: Fish Tales and Whitewater.
>They have one thing in common which I find very irritating:
>they're the liveliest-bouncing machines I've ever played.
It's probably not new rubber, in the sense that the rubber is
different, just that it is BRAND NEW, and very, very bouncy.
I remember this same hyper-bouncing on Bride of Pinbot when it
was brand-spanking new. That ball went EVERYWHERE at near
light-speeds. Give it a month or so, the rubber will age and
the ball should calm down a bit.
Bill Ung
u...@filenet.com [Not u...@felix.filenet.com like the From: line says]
Dallas Overturf
>was set up downright nasty...
Correct description!
.
.
.
>
> I'm also wondering, though, whether I should spend the money (nearly
>$3OO at least) to attend a pinball expo... I'm -pretty- good (best 3.3B on FT),
>but I'm sure I'm on the level of Lyman or anybody like that.
> Should I go?... and if I do go, what kind of chances might I have at
>some compensation (i.e., prize money)?
.
.
>Bowen
If you are really good the best skill touraments are PAPA and IFPA.
As far as compensation goes Papa so far has been much better
than IFPA (IMHO).
EXPO has gotten to be more skillfull over the past three years and
is pretty good as well. However it is basically either a win or get
nothing deal to date. Note however that I've heard rumor
that they might be considering offering some sort of 2nd and 3rd
prize. (purely rumor at this point).
As far as are you good enough to enter a tournament. You are
most likely capable of qualifying! Now you just need to learn
to play under pressure and be consistent. 3.3B on fishtails means
nothing if you can't do it every game! The question is can you
consistently get reasonably good scores? If you think you
can then take a crack at it!
Regards, Dallas...
Cameron Silver
>You know, I'm almost convinced that there's a difference in feel
>between the BLY/WMS "red" flipper rubbers and the BLY/WMS "black"
>flipper rubbers. It almost feels like I have better ball control
I disagree .. i think that black rubbers around yellow flippers look a heck-
of-a-lot meaner than the red one!! ...
Cameron Silver
Mike Wood
Mike Wood