CL: Algerbot
Jeff Ray
overdue.
I thought the deal was, the GM's weren't allowed to do anything about
the robot, but the players were free to do anything they liked to him,
whether good or bad. This has never been entirely true, since the robot
refuses to allow itself to be reset, but at least it made for a
reasonably stable compromise.
Now I have been told that the robot has been modified to defeat this, by
intentionally disregarding commands from players who are known to object
to it's existance.
Since those of us who oppose the robot can no longer take action against
it, will the GM's finally relent and take action where we no longer can?
-jrr
Jeanne
Jeff Ray <jeff...@dfrc.nasa.gov> wrote:
Algy has feelings too and I'm glad to see he's finally standing up for
himself and ignoring the commands of certain people who only enjoy
hurting him. When the "sleep while being chained" method failed to work,
it's only logical that Algy would be forced to move to ignoring. You
insult Algy by comparing him to a robot yet Algy is taking an action
that any sane person would do.
If you want to continue being hurtful to a kind soul who has done
nothing to you and only works to heal all those who are hurt, you'll
just have to be more creative.
--
High Benevolence of the Sun Dragon Clan
Member of CoNGA and Catenae
Helpful GM
> Now I have been told that the robot has been modified to defeat this, by
> intentionally disregarding commands from players who are known to object
> to it's existance.
You've been told wrong.
Although it doesn't strike me as terribly unreasonable that Algernon,
IC, may have learned to ignore people who have repeatedly led him to
harm. I don't know if it's the case, but it wouldn't surprize me, for
example, if he no longer trusts Prue who, AFAIK, enjoys his presence.
--
You have to remove stuff from my e-mail to reply, it's not difficult.
Everything here is my personal opinion, do with it what you will.
"[T]he idea of a game with people nicer than in CL makes me wanna puke."
-Michael
Kojiro
Sounds like a pretty smart robot. Or retard. Which is he again? I
forget.
GMs, I object to the existence of jrr. Could you make it so that I can
reset him whenever I want? Thanks.
- Kojiro
Michael Welsh (AKA Monolith)
jeff.ray-8E71FE...@ftp2.dfrc.nasa.gov, the "profound" and
"prolific" Jeff Ray of jeff...@dfrc.nasa.gov articulated:
> Now I have been told that the robot has been modified to defeat this, by
> intentionally disregarding commands from players who are known to object
> to it's existance.
>
> Since those of us who oppose the robot can no longer take action against
> it, will the GM's finally relent and take action where we no longer can?
I'm tired and cranky today so forgive me. My God would you people quit
whining about Algy. He doesn't interfere with your fun. So what if he's got
more horus than your favorite healer. It's a fucking game.
Again, apologies for being tired and cranky today.
Oh and BTW, In character you can screw with Algy all you want, but all this
OOC complaining about the most interesting NPC in the game is getting old.
--
Michael - HWC for Monolith
"We're talking about quite a bit more than karma. Try to keep up."
Prue
Helpful GM
its...@garhole.com (Kojiro) wrote:
> GMs, I object to the existence of jrr. Could you make it so that I can
> reset him whenever I want? Thanks.
I always tell people who have ideas like this one (not that I don't
think it's a great idea! ;D) that we have to test the implementation on
them... <G>
Hidden
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> I always tell people who have ideas like this one (not that I don't
> think it's a great idea! ;D) that we have to test the implementation on
> them... <G>
Sure, I think I have a character or two you could reset without too much
trouble if I get to reset all the Algy haters afterwards :)
--
HWC for Hidden <hid...@noDASHop.com>
"Nothing says "Shut the Fuck Up" Like a baseball bat to the head."
Helpful GM
Hidden <hid...@no-op.com> wrote:
> In article <HelpfulGM-3D2AE...@sea-read.news.verio.net>,
> Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> > I always tell people who have ideas like this one (not that I don't
> > think it's a great idea! ;D) that we have to test the implementation on
> > them... <G>
> Sure, I think I have a character or two you could reset without too much
> trouble if I get to reset all the Algy haters afterwards :)
Obviously, it'd be a pretty half-assed testing job if we only tried it
with disposable characters. To be a true test of the mechanism we're
considering, we'd have to give it a spin with Hidden (and, presumably,
Kojiro.) Then there's all the tweaking that needs to be done if we
don't like the way it works, the first time. It's all very complicated
business... :)
---
Of course, I was just kidding, as was Kojiro -- but I occasionally get
requests of the form "we should be able to XYZ to people we don't like"
which aren't particularly well thought out and it's always fun to reply
"interesting idea -- can we make it so that people who don't like you
can do it to you, so we can see if we like how it works?" Invariably,
the reply is "well, nobody'd want to <put me in jail for life>/<banish
me for eons>/<lock out my account for some period of time>/<whatever>",
which is always good for a "good, then you won't mind if we implement
that feature, available only on you for the test period, next update?"
Helpful "if sometimes in a roundabout way" GM
Jeff Ray
The robot is a cheat created by a hacker. The fact it even exists
impacts my fun. The fact it won't leave me alone impacts my fun much
more, since I do not want to participate in or benefit from a cheat.
But I can't be chained into town without some helpful jerk telling the
robot to heal me. If I protest, that signals all the malicious jerks to
make sure the robot harasses me as much as possible, by telling it to
share me when I am far from town and can't make it stop.
Chum
Jeff Ray <jeff...@dfrc.nasa.gov> wrote:
I think it's time for someone to step outside, away from the keyboard,
and maybe get a little Sunshine...
--
You have to remove your clothes if you want me to read your e-mail.
I will not, no matter how "good" the deal, ever purchase any product from
any company which gathers addresses from the usenet; period.
Michael Welsh (AKA Monolith)
jeff.ray-D5BCB9...@ftp2.dfrc.nasa.gov, the "profound" and
"prolific" Jeff Ray of jeff...@dfrc.nasa.gov articulated:
> The robot is a cheat created by a hacker. The fact it even exists
<http://www.alleydog.com/glossary/definition.cfm?term=Anal-Retentive%20(anal
%20stage%20of%20development)>
--
Michael HWC for Monolith
"Talking to someone online isn't really any different than talking to
someone in a bar or something. Its just a whole lot harder to get a
hotel and fuck." - - Michael
Simsu
> In article <jeff.ray-D5BCB9...@ftp2.dfrc.nasa.gov>,
> Jeff Ray <jeff...@dfrc.nasa.gov> wrote:
>
>
>>>He doesn't interfere with your fun.
>>
>
>>The robot is a cheat created by a hacker. The fact it even exists
>>impacts my fun. The fact it won't leave me alone impacts my fun much
>>more, since I do not want to participate in or benefit from a cheat.
>>But I can't be chained into town without some helpful jerk telling the
>>robot to heal me. If I protest, that signals all the malicious jerks to
>>make sure the robot harasses me as much as possible, by telling it to
>>share me when I am far from town and can't make it stop.
>
>
> I think it's time for someone to step outside, away from the keyboard,
> and maybe get a little Sunshine...
I agree STFU. =P
If you dun like him healing you depart or ask not to be chained to town.
salandra
peterbayly
"Jeff Ray" <jeff...@dfrc.nasa.gov> wrote in message
news:jeff.ray-D5BCB9...@ftp2.dfrc.nasa.gov...
Algy does nothing but stand in town all day healing people who need it he
doesnt shout abuse or sling bad karma.
How can the fact that that's all he does impact on your fun?
Plenty of people have afk cadding macros so that they can still heal people
when they arnt active is this a cheat that spoils your fun?
How does it not leave you alone, if Algy is doing something that annoys you
your issues should be with the person who is telling him to do so not Algy
himself.
you can stop algy healing you by telling him to walk away and most people
will get the hint and not use him to heal you.
I know some people have a problem with newbies using Algy when there are
plenty of town healers around but most newbies are eager to learn when they
come to puddleby and simply being told that its more polite to see if other
healers will heal you first and only use Algy as a last resort will get the
point across.
Mjollnir
Michael Welsh (AKA Monolith)
b34s77$2ib$1...@helle.btinternet.com, the "profound" and "prolific" peterbayly
of peter...@btinternet.com articulated:
> Algy does nothing but stand in town all day healing people who need it he
> doesnt shout abuse or sling bad karma.
> How can the fact that that's all he does impact on your fun?
> Plenty of people have afk cadding macros so that they can still heal people
> when they arnt active is this a cheat that spoils your fun?
> How does it not leave you alone, if Algy is doing something that annoys you
> your issues should be with the person who is telling him to do so not Algy
> himself.
> you can stop algy healing you by telling him to walk away and most people
> will get the hint and not use him to heal you.
>
> I know some people have a problem with newbies using Algy when there are
> plenty of town healers around but most newbies are eager to learn when they
> come to puddleby and simply being told that its more polite to see if other
> healers will heal you first and only use Algy as a last resort will get the
> point across.
Nice post, much better than my cussing and ranting. :-)
--
Mike
Sometimes known as Monolith in Clan Lord
http://www.deltatao.com/clanlord/index.html
"The captain has turned off the `No Dubbing' sign. You are free to speak any
language you choose." -- MST3K
http://home.neo.rr.com/mwelsh/main.htm
test
Your problem is not the bot, but the people that use the bot to get
under your skin.
Chum
> Chum wrote:
[a few words]
> I agree
> salandra
Mark your calendars, folks -- Salandra agreeing with Chum?! Could be
the 1st sign of the apocolypse. Next thing you know, Gurgi will start
role-playing... ;^D
Lex
>
> salandra
So then you agree Algy affects his fun negatively, if he has to now refuse
to be chained or depart?
Departing because someone you don't like starts to heal you is giving that
person way too much power over you.
I don't mind being healed by Algy but I really don't like when other poeple
command him to heal me, especially when a "real" healer is healing me and
Algy isn't needed.
Lex
Lex
> whining about Algy. He doesn't interfere with your fun. So what if he's
got
> more horus than your favorite healer. It's a fucking game.
I don't see how you can know whether or not something interferes with
someone else's fun, especially when they are telling you it does.
Lex
Michael Welsh (AKA Monolith)
b35inh$pmc$1...@netnews.upenn.edu, the "profound" and "prolific" Lex of
co...@mac.com articulated:
Right. Algy is the best NPC in the game. He can be ignored if someone hates
him so much. That makes him better than the other NPCs. I wish other NPCs
were as interactive as Algy.
Maybe Keeper can teach Algy to not heal someone if that person asks not to
be healed. That may solve some of these issues. Maybe even an ignore
command. I.e.. Sunstone Algy with a statement telling him that you don't
like interactive NPCs and you don't want him interacting with you.
With all the snerts I've seen in this game over the years. It's really sad
that something as fun and benign as Algernon can interfere with someone's
fun.
--
Michael -- HWC for Monolith
'The whole point of punishing evil is to get them to stop it. What
society thinks to itself "well, we can't make the punishments TOO harsh,
or no one will be able to afford to be evil..." ?!' -- HGM
Warren J. Dew
Mark your calendars, folks -- Salandra agreeing with Chum?!
Could be the 1st sign of the apocolypse. Next thing you know,
Gurgi will start role-playing... ;^D
Nah. What will happen is that Mr. formerly-anti-bot Chum will realize that
Gurgi was roleplaying all along!
Warren J. Dew
Powderhouse Software
Jazz
> robot to heal me.
If you are not the only one that feels this way I'm sure some Ancient
could whip up an item that would block healing/sharing etc. from
Algernon (like the Bloodring).
If you ignore/block Algernon will he still heal you/share you?
Personally I love Algy. I disagree that he's the best NPC in the
game... that would have to be Marshie. Never forget the first time I
talked to him after his "tweak". Honestly thought it was a GM messing
with me... held the conversation for like 10 minutes before I realized
it was an NPC. I'm pretty dumb though. :-)
Hidden
wrote:
> So then you agree Algy affects his fun negatively, if he has to now refuse
> to be chained or depart?
Having a broom shoved so far up your ass that your midriff looks spiny
has its disadvantages, as does being a Mystic. Both cause departs. He'll
get used to both.
> I don't mind being healed by Algy but I really don't like when other poeple
> command him to heal me, especially when a "real" healer is healing me and
> Algy isn't needed.
Well screw you too :)
Some of us actually LIKE having an extra 300 faustus when we want it.
Especially for people who train a lot of Histia, who for some reason or
another don't train Rodnus.
Michael Welsh (AKA Monolith)
edbc615e.0302...@posting.google.com, the "profound" and "prolific"
Jazz of ja...@nrdbpost.com articulated:
> Personally I love Algy. I disagree that he's the best NPC in the
> game... that would have to be Marshie. Never forget the first time I
> talked to him after his "tweak". Honestly thought it was a GM messing
> with me... held the conversation for like 10 minutes before I realized
> it was an NPC. I'm pretty dumb though. :-)
Yeah, Senior Hermit is very cool. If only he walked. :-)
--
Michael HWC for Monolith
"well, there's evil, and then there's evil... if you're dumb enough to
openly stand in town stabbing dolls that cause other exiles to bleed,
expect to lose some coin and spend time in jail." -- Ashe
Drablak
want him to. Would it be possible to have it so that you can't be
healed by people you /ignore? I just thought that if you don't like
someone, you might not want to be healed by that person either, so it
would also work for Algy. Those who don't like him/it can just ignore
him and /ignore him, and he/it will ignore them too.
Just a thought,
Drablak
Hidden
Drablak <dra...@puddleby.info> wrote:
> Just thinking about the fact people are healed by Algy while they don't
> want him to. Would it be possible to have it so that you can't be
> healed by people you /ignore?
Nope.
/ignore is clientside. It cannot effect anything on the server.
The Bomb
wish to be healed by him can easily go somewhere else, or inform others
not to instruct Algernon towards them.
Gurgi
jeff...@dfrc.nasa.gov wrote on 2/20/03 10:55 AM:
> We haven't had a flamefest over Algerbot in a while, so we're probably
> overdue.
>
> I thought the deal was, the GM's weren't allowed to do anything about
> the robot, but the players were free to do anything they liked to him,
> whether good or bad. This has never been entirely true, since the robot
> refuses to allow itself to be reset, but at least it made for a
> reasonably stable compromise.
>
> Now I have been told that the robot has been modified to defeat this, by
> intentionally disregarding commands from players who are known to object
> to it's existance.
>
> Since those of us who oppose the robot can no longer take action against
> it, will the GM's finally relent and take action where we no longer can?
>
> -jrr
You can do anything you like to algy - you just can't expect algy to do what
you want 8D
-Gurgi
Neo eXo
> The robot is a cheat created by a hacker.
oh please explain these two facts for us, how is alger a cheat? and how
is this person a "hacker"
-Neo eXo, laughing his ass off.
Warren J. Dew
Algernon remains, for the most part, in the town center. Those
who don't wish to be healed by him can easily go somewhere else ...
Perhaps you could tell us where healers other than Algy hang out, other than
town center?
Chum
Perhaps if more than one or two people feel strongly about Algernon,
they can start congregating somewhere else. Perhaps the lawn beside the
mushroom hut would be good, or over near Gaia's temple.
Alternately, if they feel that strongly about it, perhaps they can just
move Algernon S of Mai's lawn, or over to the bank, or similar.
This is not a complicated problem, folks! It's not as if he's another
Atomical, who will actively follow you around just to be annoying...
Jazz
> Some of us actually LIKE having an extra 300 faustus when we want it.
> Especially for people who train a lot of Histia, who for some reason or
> another don't train Rodnus.
You mean Algy or you when sayin 300 Faustus? As of a couple weeks ago
Algy's Faustus message was "hard to teach" (pretty darn sure I
remember that right, but don't quote me.. you could be right). I agree
with you though. There's nothing wrong IMO with having extra speed for
healing which leads me to...
Rodnus.. why exactly should I spend around 2RL months training with
this fella just because I have some Histia? I'd rather have 50 more
Evus or Swengus honestly. The only complaints I ever get being healed
are from healers with 50 or less Faustus and that ain't my fault, they
don't have to heal me. I've met several healers that specifically ask
who has trained Rodnus in a hunting party and will heal the non-Rodnus
injured last... if at all. If my understanding of Rodnus is correct
then the healer is using the same amount of spirit to heal, but it's
quicker because of the Spirtus effect. This is probably good for high
respia/low faustus healers, but at that point if you have so much
Respia another 50 Faustus doesn't hurt that bad and makes a huge
difference in speed for a 0 level Faustus healer.
Anyway, I'd love to hear more about it and I've been complained to
enough to feel bad and consider Rodnus. Is it pure Spirtus effect or
does he do something else too (besides take away .2 Evus or whatever)?
Zyzyz
and gains strength while his player is AFK.
Sounds to me like a cheat.
From ye olde Jargon File:
hacker n. [originally, someone who makes furniture with an axe] 1. A
person who enjoys exploring the details of programmable systems and
how
to stretch their capabilities ... 7. One who enjoys the
intellectual challenge of creatively overcoming or circumventing
limitations. ...
Sounds to me like Algy is the product of a hacker.
Obviously, Delta Tao tolerates Algernon. It doesn't make him less of a
cheat, that DT has chosen not to enforce their rule in his case.
In article <VelPC-21FE22....@netnews.attbi.com>,
Jazz
> With all the snerts I've seen in this game over the years. It's really sad
> that something as fun and benign as Algernon can interfere with someone's
> fun.
Yup... that pretty much sums it up.
"Me too!"
Maeght
Chum <Chum@*YOUR-CLOTHES*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> Perhaps if more than one or two people feel strongly about Algernon,
> they can start congregating somewhere else. Perhaps the lawn beside the
> mushroom hut would be good, or over near Gaia's temple.
>
> Alternately, if they feel that strongly about it, perhaps they can just
> move Algernon S of Mai's lawn, or over to the bank, or similar.
>
> This is not a complicated problem, folks! It's not as if he's another
> Atomical, who will actively follow you around just to be annoying...
It turns out that others will simply put him back.
And as it happens, some of those will do it just to annoy those bothered
by Algy.
It is more complicated than you realize.
- Maeght
Michael Welsh (AKA Monolith)
zyzyz-FF9CAA....@netnews.attbi.com, the "profound" and "prolific"
Zyzyz of zy...@orderofthemini.org articulated:
> He's a bot and bots aren't allowed. Algy interacts with the CL world
> and gains strength while his player is AFK.
>
> Sounds to me like a cheat.
>
>
> From ye olde Jargon File:
>
> hacker n. [originally, someone who makes furniture with an axe] 1. A
> person who enjoys exploring the details of programmable systems and
> how
> to stretch their capabilities ... 7. One who enjoys the
> intellectual challenge of creatively overcoming or circumventing
> limitations. ...
>
>
> Sounds to me like Algy is the product of a hacker.
>
> Obviously, Delta Tao tolerates Algernon. It doesn't make him less of a
> cheat, that DT has chosen not to enforce their rule in his case.
Wrong, you can only cheat by breaking the rules. DT makes the rules and
allows Algernon. You do the math.
DT has said repeatedly that if anyone can make an interactive NPC as
interesting, entertaining and unique as Algernon that they would be allowed
to exist too.
If I write a script for coin hunting for Mono, but play him normally
otherwise, that is cheating.
Algernon isn't anything more than a well constructed script. I wish all NPCs
had the same abilities he did. I think it would be awesome if during every
town invasion we had to save all the town NPCs as well. Algernon is no more
a cheat than Joe's jail NPC is.
--
Michael HWC for Monolith
"If you are trying to be a Phelps of the World, then you probably are. :-)"
- HWC for Phelps
Sunoril
<ja...@nrdbpost.com> wrote:
> There's nothing wrong IMO with having extra speed for
> healing which leads me to...
>
> Rodnus.. why exactly should I spend around 2RL months training with
> this fella just because I have some Histia? I'd rather have 50 more
> Evus or Swengus honestly. The only complaints I ever get being healed
> are from healers with 50 or less Faustus and that ain't my fault, they
> don't have to heal me. I've met several healers that specifically ask
> who has trained Rodnus in a hunting party and will heal the non-Rodnus
> injured last... if at all. If my understanding of Rodnus is correct
> then the healer is using the same amount of spirit to heal, but it's
> quicker because of the Spirtus effect. This is probably good for high
> respia/low faustus healers, but at that point if you have so much
> Respia another 50 Faustus doesn't hurt that bad and makes a huge
> difference in speed for a 0 level Faustus healer.
>
> Anyway, I'd love to hear more about it and I've been complained to
> enough to feel bad and consider Rodnus. Is it pure Spirtus effect or
> does he do something else too (besides take away .2 Evus or whatever)?
You won't get any complaints from me if it takes me a long time to heal
you. Rather, I will probably consider training more Faustus directly if
that begins to happen often.
When I first became a healer, I thought that training Eva was all I
needed. That, as Jerry Pournelle likes to say, turns out not to be the
case. So I am now training Respia until I "catch up". I've noticed that
now that my spirit regeneration is picking up, my low Faustus (it's
Faustus that helps a healer heal others faster) is more apparent. But
one thing at a time.
My understanding of Rodnus (which is one component of what Spirtus
teaches - about .5 Rodnus per rank of Spirtus) is that, in effect, it
*temporarily* gives the healer an extra fractional rank (.8 is the
number I've seen - I've not tried to verify it) of Faustus per rank of
Rodnus while healing the person with Rodnus (or Spirtus) training. If,
as you say, the healer has enough Respia to compensate, there's rarely
a problem. If not, though, high Rodnus can (I think) have a serious
effect on the healer's ability to heal himself. As for training more
Faustus, if my assumptions about healer training are correct, and
assuming one wants to be a good all around healer rather than a
specialist, then I think that the basis of one's training plan should
be about 1.5 ranks of Respia to 1 rank of Eva. The Eva training should
give enough Faustus, Higgrus, and Sespus, but not enough Respia, which
is why the supplement. If one wants to become a rod point some day,
then perhaps one rank of Spirtus in place of every third rank of Eva.
That's essentially what I'm doing now (plus training with Horus and
Awaria). However, since I'm trying to "catch up" my Respia training,
I'm not at present training with Eva or Spirtus at all - which means my
Faustus is not increasing, which means it's harder for me to heal the
higher ranking fighters I'm beginning to see more often over my
moonstone. But like I said above, one thing at a time.
The only folks who get "bumped" to the bottom of my "who do I heal
next" list are those who aren't sharing me - and even then if they're
low, they'll get bumped back up, unless someone who *is* sharing me is
also that low.
So far as I know, Rodnus is just Rodnus. Don't know how much Evus he
takes away (and I wonder if it's Rodnus the trainer who does that, or
if training Spirtus also reduces Evus or, more importantly for healers,
Bodrus/Hardia).
--
HWC for Sunoril
Hidden
ja...@nrdbpost.com (Jazz) wrote:
> Rodnus.. why exactly should I spend around 2RL months training with
> this fella just because I have some Histia?
Are you primarily a solo or group hunter? As I recall, solo, so the
primary benefit of 50 Rodnus for you is going to be an extra 30 histia.
> If my understanding of Rodnus is correct then the healer is using the
> same amount of spirit to heal, but it's quicker because of the
> Spirtus effect.
Incorrect. Less spirit is used, just the same ammount of health, and
MUCH less time.
> This is probably good for high respia/low faustus healers, but at
> that point if you have so much Respia another 50 Faustus doesn't hurt
> that bad and makes a huge difference in speed for a 0 level Faustus
> healer.
It's also good for situations with multiple healers. You're adding 80
faustus per healer and not really taking away anything. This can turn
out to be a fairly significant bonus.
> Anyway, I'd love to hear more about it and I've been complained to
> enough to feel bad and consider Rodnus. Is it pure Spirtus effect or
> does he do something else too (besides take away .2 Evus or whatever)?
50 rodnus gives 30 histia as well as 80 spirit-drain-free extra faustus
to every healer healing you. He does not take away any ranks whatsoever.
For our purposes, he is roughly twice as effective as Spirtus, though if
you already have 100 spirtus you can't train with him.
Althea
>
> Rodnus.. why exactly should I spend around 2RL months training with
> this fella just because I have some Histia? I'd rather have 50 more
Because it gets you healed faster and ready to fight faster
Because the histia in rodnus makes you a stronger, more capable party
member
>
> Anyway, I'd love to hear more about it and I've been complained to
> enough to feel bad and consider Rodnus. Is it pure Spirtus effect or
> does he do something else too (besides take away .2 Evus or whatever)?
It doesn't take away any of your other stats. You are confusing rodnus
with the folks he hangs out with, Knox and Angilsa.
Althea
Dandelion
> Rodnus.. why exactly should I spend around 2RL months training with
> this fella just because I have some Histia? I'd rather have 50 more
> Evus or Swengus honestly.
Until such time as you feel you want to be healed faster, there is
absolutely no reason, whatsoever. Train whatcha wanna! Sometimes, taking
a long time to heal is kinda fun ... gives ya time fer yackin'.
Dandelion
--
Solipsism is pointless. - Kojiro
Yes, but it's only pointless to me. - Michael-HWC for Monolith
Neo eXo
the cheating bit :-P
In article <zyzyz-FF9CAA....@netnews.attbi.com>,
Haenk
> > If my understanding of Rodnus is correct then the healer is using the
> > same amount of spirit to heal, but it's quicker because of the
> > Spirtus effect.
>
> Incorrect. Less spirit is used, just the same ammount of health, and
> MUCH less time.
I think both of you are incorrect. Rodnus (as does Spirtus) training
eats up a bit more Spirit than usual; I am pretty sure it does more
damage too. The latter is hard to prove, since you would have to do an
A-B comparision; the first is easy to prove though. Since I have
trained to keep my Spirit in balance while healing "normal" people, it
will decrease while healing Rodnus/Spirtus-trained people. If you have
a plus of Respia, you won't notice, but the effect is there (its not
huge though).
Haenk
Hidden
ha...@mac.com (Haenk) wrote:
> I think both of you are incorrect. Rodnus (as does Spirtus) training
> eats up a bit more Spirit than usual;
I am almost entirely sure this is not true. I have 800 spirtus. Newbies,
when healing me, run out of health before spirit. Many people who heal
me complain that I sap their health like nothing else. I have heard
nobody complain about spirit problems.
> I am pretty sure it does more damage too.
This may be. I've been treating it as a flat faustus/respia bonus, in
which case the total ammount of damage/healing doesn't change, just the
rate at which it happens. This may be an incorrect assumption. Methinks
it would be difficult to test.
Warren J. Dew
DT has said repeatedly that if anyone can make an interactive
NPC as interesting, entertaining and unique as Algernon that
they would be allowed to exist too.
Not true.
When I discussed such possibilities with AnnGM here about a year ago, she had
some other concerns. Some were 'fairness' concerns that I never really got a
handle on, as she and I have slightly different ideas of 'fairness'.
HelpfulGM has in the past emphasized that Algernon was an exception to the
'bots discouraged' rule, not an example of a 'bots that contribute to the
community are encouraged' rule.
Joe has said nothing specific.
Michael Welsh (AKA Monolith)
20030223090422...@mb-cg.aol.com, the "profound" and "prolific"
Warren J. Dew of psych...@aol.com articulated:
> HelpfulGM has in the past emphasized that Algernon was an exception to the
> 'bots discouraged' rule, not an example of a 'bots that contribute to the
> community are encouraged' rule.
>
> Joe has said nothing specific.
<
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+Algernon+group:comp.sys.mac.games.adventu
re&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&selm=HelpfulGM-781D44.21372328032002%40ca.new
s.verio.net&rnum=22 >
<
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl269443970d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&saf
e=off&selm=HelpfulGM-A40D00.16183629032002%40ca.news.verio.net >
And finally, here is the quote from Chum and the link to it as well.
"
Debatable. Basically, it boils down to this: Algernon adds to the
CL world, to the Puddleby community in big, important ways.
Rat-scripts don't.
It's 100% subjective, 100% at Joe's discretion, and 100% "not fair"
Oh well. Life isn't fair. Start a company, write a game, allow/
don't-allow scripts at your discression. etc., blah, blah, blah.
As you note, it helps that Algie is widely loved, that he's not
"a cheat" for someone to gain ranks while they sleep and then
wake-up to a super-char... He GIVES to the community, rather than
TAKES for himself. These are things considered when we decided
to except the rule for Algernon.
If you make a script that adds as much to the world as Algie,
then you can argue with Joe about how it ought to be allowed.
Don't get your hopes up, though -- a lot of "cute/neat" things
aren't as beneficial as some might think. There was a time,
fwiw, when Algernon's future was in question, but I think it's
pretty much agreed that he makes CL substantially better.
It turns out that it's only "a sticky issue" if you try to make
the world Black And White, if you try to make a hard and fast
set of rules that apply to everything. If you're willing to
excersize judgement, and think problems through, this one's
pretty cut & dried."
<
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&selm=Chum-031199
1145460001%40olie.apple.com&rnum=24 >
Helpful GM
"Michael Welsh (AKA Monolith)" <monolith@REMOVE*THISneo.rr.com> wrote:
> On 2/23/03 9:04 AM, in the "great" literary work,
> 20030223090422...@mb-cg.aol.com, the "profound" and "prolific"
> Warren J. Dew of psych...@aol.com articulated:
>
> > HelpfulGM has in the past emphasized that Algernon was an exception to the
> > 'bots discouraged' rule, not an example of a 'bots that contribute to the
> > community are encouraged' rule.
> >
> > Joe has said nothing specific.
[snip]
> And finally, here is the quote from Chum and the link to it as well.
>
> " Debatable. Basically, it boils down to this: Algernon adds to the
> CL world, to the Puddleby community in big, important ways.
>
> Rat-scripts don't.
>
> It's 100% subjective, 100% at Joe's discretion, and 100% "not fair"
> Oh well. Life isn't fair. Start a company, write a game, allow/
> don't-allow scripts at your discression. etc., blah, blah, blah.
>
> As you note, it helps that Algie is widely loved, that he's not
> "a cheat" for someone to gain ranks while they sleep and then
> wake-up to a super-char... He GIVES to the community, rather than
> TAKES for himself. These are things considered when we decided
> to except the rule for Algernon.
>
> If you make a script that adds as much to the world as Algie,
> then you can argue with Joe about how it ought to be allowed.
> Don't get your hopes up, though -- a lot of "cute/neat" things
> aren't as beneficial as some might think."
[snip]
> http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&selm=Chum-031199
> 1145460001%40olie.apple.com&rnum=24 >
I just want to add, here, that I was *NOT* saying "bots that contribute
to the community are encouraged" in the quoted article. What I said was
that Algy is the exception to the "bots discouraged" rule, and that the
reasons included the fact that, in the judgement of the GMs, he adds to
the CL world.
One should *NOT* infer from this that they are encouraged in any way to
try to design a bot that improves the CL world. Bots are discouraged,
priod. Algernon is the exception, period. You making another bot and
trying to become the other exception is almost certainly a waste of your
time, as you will be "discouraged", strongly.
To repeat from the quoted article: "It's 100% subjective, 100% at Joe's
discretion, and 100% 'not fair'. Oh well. Life isn't fair."
Helpful "look, I don't want to argue about it, I'm just trying to
explain how things are. You do what you want with that information" GM
--
You have to remove stuff from my e-mail to reply, it's not difficult.
Everything here is my personal opinion, do with it what you will.
"[T]he idea of a game with people nicer than in CL makes me wanna puke."
-Michael
Jazz
Thanks all for the replies, I learned a lot! :-)
> Because the histia in rodnus makes you a stronger, more capable party
> member
I've already got a few Histia so it probably doesn't make sense for me
to get some more from Rodnus when I'll get some from Evus anyway. And
as you well know Althea from Hell (tsk tsk) the capability of a party
member is mostly common sense and a little smarts with ranks like the
icing on the cake. Ask me on a hunt anyday and I'll show you I can be
a capable party member even with less ranks than most. Hehe. :-p
The only reason I ever hunt alone is that nobody invites me along
anywhere or I don't have OOC time... the latter contributing greatly
to the reason for the former.
> It doesn't take away any of your other stats. You are confusing rodnus
> with the folks he hangs out with, Knox and Angilsa.
Didn't know this, thanks!
Axell (Nath J)
> I just want to add, here, that I was *NOT* saying "bots that contribute
> to the community are encouraged" in the quoted article. What I said was
> that Algy is the exception to the "bots discouraged" rule, and that the
> reasons included the fact that, in the judgement of the GMs, he adds to
> the CL world.
>
> One should *NOT* infer from this that they are encouraged in any way to
> try to design a bot that improves the CL world. Bots are discouraged,
> priod. Algernon is the exception, period. You making another bot and
> trying to become the other exception is almost certainly a waste of your
> time, as you will be "discouraged", strongly.
What about Census ?
--
Axell
Axell (Nath J)
> > I think both of you are incorrect. Rodnus (as does Spirtus) training
> > eats up a bit more Spirit than usual;
>
> I am almost entirely sure this is not true. I have 800 spirtus. Newbies,
> when healing me, run out of health before spirit. Many people who heal
> me complain that I sap their health like nothing else. I have heard
> nobody complain about spirit problems.
I agree with Haenk.
It seems that the "spirit link" is stronger while healing a high Spritus
healer and then the Spirit use is greater.
But, maybe others factors need to be taken in to account (faustus and
the amount of Spritus of the other healer )
--
Axell
Slyph
> him so much. That makes him better than the other NPCs. I wish other NPCs
> were as interactive as Algy.
I doubt anyone has an issue at all with the fact that Algernon is
an interactive bot. At least I do not. But merely suggesting that
people ignore the bot dimisses other valid issues people have with
Algernon.
> With all the snerts I've seen in this game over the years. It's really sad
> that something as fun and benign as Algernon can interfere with someone's
> fun.
Yes, I have to fully agree, here, Mono. It's very sad.
-Slyph
--
"Have I ever mentioned how much PF blows? The only way it could suck
more is if the paths sometimes made you PND when you couldnt open them
instead of just not working from week to week."
-Michael
Hidden
Slyph <sl...@fake.address> wrote:
> But merely suggesting that people ignore the bot dimisses other valid
> issues people have with Algernon.
Essentially that some people are insecure enough as healers that they're
jealous of the skills of a retarded robot? That they're so afraid of the
fact that his massive l33t skillz in moving on command dwarf the fact
that they'd rather lie around and chat with their friends than take 5
seconds out of their life to heal a waiting injured person?
That combined with a decent chainer, Algy is the best rescue healer in
Puddleby because all of the others are too damnably lazy and incompetent?
You know, I just don't see the "real" problem.
Pernille Jensen
> I think both of you are incorrect. Rodnus (as does Spirtus) training
> eats up a bit more Spirit than usual; I am pretty sure it does more
> damage too. The latter is hard to prove, since you would have to do an
> A-B comparision; the first is easy to prove though. Since I have
> trained to keep my Spirit in balance while healing "normal" people, it
> will decrease while healing Rodnus/Spirtus-trained people. If you have
> a plus of Respia, you won't notice, but the effect is there (its not
> huge though).
Well, I just tested it. The test healer, a 2nd circle healer, just
barely loses spirit when healing.
Subject A: 400 Spirtus healer.
Healing time: 25 sec (100 frames)
Health healed: ~180 Higgy
Spirit loss: 9 pixels
Health loss: 112 of 125 pix (89.6%)
Subject B: 0 Spirtus fighter.
Healing time: 25 sec (100 frames)
Health healed: ~45 Higgy
Spirit loss: 9 pixels
Health loss: 29 of 125 pix (23.2%)
I must conclude that relative spirit loss/gain is exactly the same, no
matter how much Spirtus or Rodnus the injured one has.
If you self heal while healing, you *will* notice your Spirit drop
faster when healing someone with high Spirtus. This is because you lose
health faster, and thus have to spend more resources on self heal.
- Pernille
Michael Welsh (AKA Monolith)
hidden-AD18F3....@news.stanford.edu, the "profound" and
"prolific" Hidden of hid...@no-op.com articulated:
> In article <slyph-91B4D7....@news.spiralweb.com>,
> Slyph <sl...@fake.address> wrote:
>
>> But merely suggesting that people ignore the bot dimisses other valid
>> issues people have with Algernon.
>
> Essentially that some people are insecure enough as healers that they're
> jealous of the skills of a retarded robot? That they're so afraid of the
> fact that his massive l33t skillz in moving on command dwarf the fact
> that they'd rather lie around and chat with their friends than take 5
> seconds out of their life to heal a waiting injured person?
>
> That combined with a decent chainer, Algy is the best rescue healer in
> Puddleby because all of the others are too damnably lazy and incompetent?
>
> You know, I just don't see the "real" problem.
Oh man, that made me laugh! Thanks! That is true of some, very true.
This really reminds me of my good old school days in gym class when the
jocks would bitch because they had to put a geek on their team after making
the geek wait to the very end to be picked. Folks, you don't even have to
pick Algernon, so take a deep breath and keep playing the game.
--
Michael - HWC for Monolith
"I don't want PK and I can kill the majority of fighters in Clan Lord." -
Noah
Lex
> matter how much Spirtus or Rodnus the injured one has.
That's pretty much what I've seen. Spirit drain is the same but health
drain is a lot faster, supposedly the same as if you had trained that much
Faustus.
Lex
Lex
> Puddleby because all of the others are too damnably lazy and incompetent?
With the exception of Kalle' who are you talking about? Usually if I walk
into town injured I get swarmed by every healer there. And choosing to have
a conversation with someone in TC is not the same as being too lazy or
incompetent to go rescue someone. A fallen exile doesn't have a right to a
rescue.
Lex
Michael Welsh (AKA Monolith)
b3dilg$5njt$1...@netnews.upenn.edu, the "profound" and "prolific" Lex of
co...@mac.com articulated:
> With the exception of Kalle' who are you talking about? Usually if I walk
> into town injured I get swarmed by every healer there. And choosing to have
> a conversation with someone in TC is not the same as being too lazy or
> incompetent to go rescue someone. A fallen exile doesn't have a right to a
> rescue.
There are times when I've found fallens on KB or East Field and ended up
threatening to go visit resetus to become a healer before whoever was
sitting on their butts in town would make the 1 minute trip to help them.
These times are rare, but they do happen.
A fallen exile doesn't have the right to a rescue, true, but when I've
played healers, I've never been able to ignore cries for help. Oh well.
--
Michael - HWC for Mono
Merlisk thinks, "I'm a member of the NRA - Nude Ranger Axewielders"
Hidden
wrote:
> And choosing to have a conversation with someone in TC is not the
> same as being too lazy or incompetent to go rescue someone. A fallen
> exile doesn't have a right to a rescue.
Nor does J. Random Townie have a right to complain if someone decides
it'd be quicker to chain the fallen to Algy than to wait for them to
move their ass. You wouldn't believe how slow rescues can be these days
when the would-be rescuer has no clue where the fuck anything is. The
last time I fell as a fighter I had a strong urge after about the 50
minute mark to depart and show the fucker (a 3rd or 4th circle healer, I
forget which) exactly where NBC is.
I think the other complaint I've heard is the "newbies learn to depend
on him" thing, which is REALLY funny, because any healer who's even
half-awake can always get them before Algy does. Therefore I've been
forced to the conclusion that anyone that complains about this is just
too lazy or stupid to outperform a bot.
Polerand
As long as said healer doesn't bitch and moan about Algernon taking
their job, or anything else about healers being "underappreciated"
they can do whatever they want. But when they start whining while all
they do is sit on their ass (nothing wrong with it; I find it fun to
sit and chat) then they'll see the pretty end of my STFU club.
-Polerand
P.S. Exiles don't really have any rights. So ...
Lauri Fried-Lee
>
> So far as I know, Rodnus is just Rodnus. Don't know how much Evus he
> takes away (and I wonder if it's Rodnus the trainer who does that, or
> if training Spirtus also reduces Evus or, more importantly for healers,
> Bodrus/Hardia).
>
> --
> HWC for Sunoril
Rodnus doesn't take away any Evus. I understand, however, he does give some
Histia too. Training Spirtus as far as I know, doesn't take away anything
from healers. Training 100 Spirtus, from what I have heard, takes away a
fighter's chance to train Rodnus.
I could tell you Faustus is highly overrated, but in fact it depend on what
kind of healer you want to be. I'm pretty happy with my high Respia, low
Faustus mix as it stands now, but being able to burst made me not quite as
slow as I used to be. Train however it seems to be fun ;)
Lorikeet
Sunoril
<frie...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> Rodnus doesn't take away any Evus. I understand, however, he does give some
> Histia too. Training Spirtus as far as I know, doesn't take away anything
> from healers. Training 100 Spirtus, from what I have heard, takes away a
> fighter's chance to train Rodnus.
Hm. Interesting. If a fighter trains Rodnus directly (and never
Spirtus) is the Rodnus capped?
> I could tell you Faustus is highly overrated, but in fact it depend on what
> kind of healer you want to be. I'm pretty happy with my high Respia, low
> Faustus mix as it stands now, but being able to burst made me not quite as
> slow as I used to be. Train however it seems to be fun ;)
Oh, I do. :-)
--
HWC for Sunoril
Lex
some
> > Histia too. Training Spirtus as far as I know, doesn't take away
anything
> > from healers. Training 100 Spirtus, from what I have heard, takes away a
> > fighter's chance to train Rodnus.
>
> Hm. Interesting. If a fighter trains Rodnus directly (and never
> Spirtus) is the Rodnus capped?
Yes, Rodnus is capped at 50 ranks. 1 Spiritus has 0.5 Rodnus, so 100
Spiritus would mean you've already surpassed what Rodnus can give you.
Bodrus is the same way. I never trained it directly - but can't now, since
what I've gotten from Evus adds up to over 100 Bodrus.
Lex
Brune
It is interesting that the ratio of (health loss)/(health healed) is
the same between subjects A and B. I guess one conclusion is that 1
histia = 1 higgrus...which I was not sure of.
If 100 spirtus by the target "acts like" 80 faustus, this means that
the 400 spirtus healer (above) is being healed with 320 extra
faustus...I'd sure like to know what the base faustus for the 2nd
circle test healer was. Subject B was healed at 1.8 higgrus per
second, while Subject A was healed at 7.2 higgrus per second, a 4X
difference.
What effect does this difference in spirtus have on burst healing?
Brune
Lex
> the 400 spirtus healer (above) is being healed with 320 extra
> faustus...I'd sure like to know what the base faustus for the 2nd
> circle test healer was. Subject B was healed at 1.8 higgrus per
> second, while Subject A was healed at 7.2 higgrus per second, a 4X
> difference.
At first, it looked like healing 100 Spiritus had the effect of doubling
your Faustus, and each additional 100 would add one base of Faustus. But it
could be a coincidence that this healer had ~80 Faustus. Or it could be
that the number 80 is not correct for 100 Spiritus. Does anyone know how
this amount of 80 extra Faustus per 100 Spiritus was learned?
Lex
Jeff Ray
> The robot is a cheat created by a hacker.
Neo eXo wrote:
> oh please explain these two facts for us, how is alger a cheat? and how
> is this person a "hacker"
Zyzyz wrote:
> He's a bot and bots aren't allowed. Algy interacts with the CL world
> and gains strength while his player is AFK.
Neo eXo wrote:
> shhh you werent saposed to answer for him! ;-) and Mono is right about
> the cheating bit :-P
Why? Is Zyzyz's answer, or HGM's refutation of Mono, any less valid
because it didn't come from me? If you aren't really interested in this
topic, and are just trying to pick a fight with me personally, I'm not
interested.
Hidden wrote:
> Some of us actually LIKE having an extra 300 faustus when we want it.
So you're defending the robot, not because if it's personality, but
because it gives you extra ranks to use?
Slyph wrote:
> But merely suggesting that people ignore the bot dimisses other valid
> issues people have with Algernon.
Hidden wrote:
> Essentially that some people are insecure enough as healers that they're
> jealous of the skills of a retarded robot? That they're so afraid of the
> fact that his massive l33t skillz in moving on command dwarf the fact
> that they'd rather lie around and chat with their friends than take 5
> seconds out of their life to heal a waiting injured person?
>
> That combined with a decent chainer, Algy is the best rescue healer in
> Puddleby because all of the others are too damnably lazy and incompetent?
>
> You know, I just don't see the "real" problem.
"Lazy and incompetent" are not the only reasons to not heal someone.
There are many perfectly valid reasons for a healer to be slow or
reluctant or to just say flat no, but the robot knows none of them; the
robot never says no.
Clan Lord is a game of relationships and dependencies. Maintaining
relationships generally requires time and effort, sometimes quite a lot
of it, and our dependencies generally involve a cost of some kind, but
the robot gives players a way to avoid some or all of that. You never
have to give it coins, or shares, or take it on a hunt, or support
something it wants to do, or spend an evening letting it cry on your
shoulder because it lost it's job or it's marriage is breaking up. It
has complex, high level healing skills, but all the social complexity of
a toaster. It has no emotions, so you don't have to worry about hurting
it's feelings or making it mad; you can do anything you want to it, and
it won't say no.
And because it won't say no, it takes away opportunities for other
healers to say no: Snerts get chained directly to the robot, stingy
coinwhores get free heals, and if your worse enemy gets chained in while
you and the robot are the only healers in town, the robot will have them
up before you have time to gloat.
Lex wrote:
> And choosing to have a conversation with someone in TC is not the
> same as being too lazy or incompetent to go rescue someone. A fallen
> exile doesn't have a right to a rescue.
Hidden wrote:
> Nor does J. Random Townie have a right to complain if someone decides
> it'd be quicker to chain the fallen to Algy than to wait for them to
> move their ass.
If it were another player who wouldn't say no, that would be fine.
Other healers could interact with them, try to convince them to charge
more or exercise some judgement about healing certain exiles;
inter-player interaction and conflict is good. But the robot can't be
reasoned with in this way; it's just a machine, it's doing it's thing
24/7, and players do have a right to complain about that.
Nearly every problem with the robot derives from the fact that it is not
just a simulation of a village idiot, but is also a powerful, high level
healer. If it's healer status were taken away, then it would be nearly
harmless.
-jrr
Helpful GM
Jeff Ray <jeff...@dfrc.nasa.gov> wrote:
> "Lazy and incompetent" are not the only reasons to not heal someone.
> There are many perfectly valid reasons for a healer to be slow or
> reluctant or to just say flat no, but the robot knows none of them; the
> robot never says no.
Weren't you recently complaining that the robot didn't do what you
wanted him to -- that he did, in fact, "say no" to you?
Slyph
> Nearly every problem with the robot derives from the fact that it is not
> just a simulation of a village idiot, but is also a powerful, high level
> healer. If it's healer status were taken away, then it would be nearly
> harmless.
This is the only problem I've ever had with the bot. If it did not
possess healer items, I would think it cute and wonderful.
Slyph
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> In article <jeff.ray-33718F...@ftp2.dfrc.nasa.gov>,
> Jeff Ray <jeff...@dfrc.nasa.gov> wrote:
>
> > "Lazy and incompetent" are not the only reasons to not heal someone.
> > There are many perfectly valid reasons for a healer to be slow or
> > reluctant or to just say flat no, but the robot knows none of them; the
> > robot never says no.
>
> Weren't you recently complaining that the robot didn't do what you
> wanted him to -- that he did, in fact, "say no" to you?
The bot did not, in fact, say no to him. PWC Algernon, sick of the fact
that a bot in the game suffers consequences from players that do not
like bots, has scripted the bot to ignore certain players. It's a
perfectly valid in-character response for anyone, of course, but this is
also an out-of-character issue; PWC Algernon does not care for the
consequences of running a bot in Clan Lord.
I can only imagine the difficulty I'd face, not only running a bot in
the game, but purposely trying to circumvent the negative aspects my bot
would face. Truly, Algernon is the exception, as you said perviously.
Hidden
> There are many perfectly valid reasons for a healer to be slow or
> reluctant or to just say flat no, but the robot knows none of them; the
> robot never says no.
Wasn't one of the reasons you started this thread because Algy stopped
listening to his tormentors and thus learned to say "no"? I sense
contradiction.
[localhost:~] hidden% telnet jeffray.local
Login: ******
Enter password:
Access confirmed.
[jeffray:~] hidden% cd /ass/
[jeffray:~] hidden% rm broom
Override rwx-r-xr-- for /ass/broom? y
[jeffray:~] hidden% exit
[localhoust:~] logout
Goodbye.
Hidden
Slyph <sl...@fake.address> wrote:
> PWC Algernon, sick of the fact that a bot in the game suffers
> consequences from players that do not like bots, has scripted the bot
> to ignore certain players.
I could say, with equal validity, that PWC Slyph, sick of the fact that
the village idiot outsmarted their character yet again, has decided to
sit on the ground and fart a lot, then have sex with monkies. This would
be roughly as true as what you write above. (i.e. not at all)
PWC Algernon is well known to periodically put Algy into a sort of
"lucid stage" (IE, with a human player). While remaining IC, Algernon
becomes receptive to learning. This was the direct result of actions of
other characters, not something the PWC suddenly decided to do out of
spite because a script he wrote that does not benefit him in any way was
being mistreated by pedantic freaks.
Pernille Jensen
> If 100 spirtus by the target "acts like" 80 faustus, this means that
> the 400 spirtus healer (above) is being healed with 320 extra
> faustus...I'd sure like to know what the base faustus for the 2nd
> circle test healer was. Subject B was healed at 1.8 higgrus per
> second, while Subject A was healed at 7.2 higgrus per second, a 4X
> difference.
I estimate the healer's Faustus to 100-105, including what a newbie
starts with.
> What effect does this difference in spirtus have on burst healing?
There is a very noticeable improvement of burst efficiency, but I
haven't measured it.
- Pernille
Pernille Jensen
> At first, it looked like healing 100 Spiritus had the effect of doubling
> your Faustus, and each additional 100 would add one base of Faustus. But it
> could be a coincidence that this healer had ~80 Faustus. Or it could be
> that the number 80 is not correct for 100 Spiritus. Does anyone know how
> this amount of 80 extra Faustus per 100 Spiritus was learned?
The number I got was actually closer to 75.
It was learned by first measuring the health drain of a newbie Fen
healer while healing a 100 Spirtus healer, (and a 50 Rodnus fighter,
discovering that the result was the same).
Then the newbie trained Faustus until the health drain was the same on a
0 Spirtus exile.
She tried healing people with more Spirtus, too. As far as I remember,
the approximate results were these:
Spirtus Time to zero health
100 25 seconds
200 13 seconds
300 9 seconds
- Pernille
Neo eXo
Chum <Chum@*YOUR-CLOTHES*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> This is not a complicated problem, folks! It's not as if he's another
> Atomical, who will actively follow you around just to be annoying...
oh yes that one took an account revocation and who knows what elese to
remove from CL.
-Neo eXo
Neo eXo
> Why? Is Zyzyz's answer, or HGM's refutation of Mono, any less valid
> because it didn't come from me? If you aren't really interested in this
> topic, and are just trying to pick a fight with me personally, I'm not
> interested.
No, I wanted YOUR response, not his not anyone elses. His are valid yes,
but the cheat part doesnt fit because DT/GMs do not fight algernon nor
call him bad, so how can he be cheating? not interested in the topic...
Well you could say im interested, wanna see my algy clone? does
everything he does!
Michael Welsh
> Nearly every problem with the robot derives from the fact that it is not
> just a simulation of a village idiot, but is also a powerful, high level
> healer. If it's healer status were taken away, then it would be nearly
> harmless.
And every bit as boring and un-interactive as the other NPCs.
Here's my favorite thing about Algy.
He's killable.
There is little I hate more than running through town during an invasion
and seeing all the NPCs unharmed and oblivious to what is going on. They
really need some kind of invasion script and they need the ability to
fall.
Just be glad that he isn't a regular NPC, then there would be no way to
retaliate against him.
Michael HWC for Mono
Michael
> in article jeff.ray-8E71FE...@ftp2.dfrc.nasa.gov, Jeff Ray at
> jeff...@dfrc.nasa.gov wrote on 2/20/03 10:55 AM:
>
> > We haven't had a flamefest over Algerbot in a while, so we're probably
> > overdue.
> >
> > I thought the deal was, the GM's weren't allowed to do anything about
> > the robot, but the players were free to do anything they liked to him,
> > whether good or bad. This has never been entirely true, since the robot
> > refuses to allow itself to be reset, but at least it made for a
> > reasonably stable compromise.
> >
> > Now I have been told that the robot has been modified to defeat this, by
> > intentionally disregarding commands from players who are known to object
> > to it's existance.
> >
> > Since those of us who oppose the robot can no longer take action against
> > it, will the GM's finally relent and take action where we no longer can?
> >
> > -jrr
>
>
> You can do anything you like to algy - you just can't expect algy to do what
> you want 8D
>
> -Gurgi
LOL. Well said.
And all you algy haters please get fucking lives.
Michael
Michael
> > He doesn't interfere with your fun.
>
> The robot is a cheat created by a hacker. The fact it even exists
> impacts my fun. The fact it won't leave me alone impacts my fun much
> more, since I do not want to participate in or benefit from a cheat.
> But I can't be chained into town without some helpful jerk telling the
> robot to heal me. If I protest, that signals all the malicious jerks to
> make sure the robot harasses me as much as possible, by telling it to
> share me when I am far from town and can't make it stop.
There are lots of exiles that exist who ruin my fun. Can I get them
removed too?
Michael
Phelps
"Michael Welsh (AKA Monolith)" <monolith@REMOVE*THISneo.rr.com> wrote:
> On 2/22/03 1:27 PM, in the "great" literary work,
> zyzyz-FF9CAA....@netnews.attbi.com, the "profound" and "prolific"
> Zyzyz of zy...@orderofthemini.org articulated:
> > Obviously, Delta Tao tolerates Algernon. It doesn't make him less of a
> > cheat, that DT has chosen not to enforce their rule in his case.
>
> Wrong, you can only cheat by breaking the rules. DT makes the rules and
> allows Algernon. You do the math.
No, we make the rules. DT makes the consequences of the game world.
DT decides that bad things should happen to bots; we are the ones who
decide that they are cheaters.
HWC for Phelps
obPhelpses of the World
obBalanceTaxSDB
--
"The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive and usually
idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of
us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched.
He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to
despair." -- H.L. Mencken
Phelps
Hidden <hid...@no-op.com> wrote:
> PWC Algernon is well known to periodically put Algy into a sort of
> "lucid stage" (IE, with a human player).
So it isn't a true bot, and is instead being used to gain ranks and
fame so that the clicker can wake up to a highly ranked and famous
character.
Sounds like a cheat to me.
Hidden
Phelps <phe...@attbi.com> wrote:
> So it isn't a true bot, and is instead being used to gain ranks and
> fame so that the clicker can wake up to a highly ranked and famous
> character.
Quiet, library cheater. You've been using the library and posting to the
newsgroup to gain ranks and fame so that you can wake up to a highly
ranked and famous character.
The only thing Keeper ever does while clicking Algy is improve the
scripts in response to what Algy sees around him. Hardly sounds like a
"ranks and fame" thing to me. Algy is only a healer because the players
made him a healer, not because Keeper wanted an overnight superhealer
without any effort.
Neo eXo
Phelps <phe...@attbi.com> wrote:
> No, we make the rules. DT makes the consequences of the game world.
> DT decides that bad things should happen to bots; we are the ones who
> decide that they are cheaters.
yes we have the court for that, and oh we see how so well this system
works.
-Neo eXo
Baff
>
> The only thing Keeper ever does while clicking Algy is improve the
> scripts in response to what Algy sees around him. Hardly sounds like a
> "ranks and fame" thing to me. Algy is only a healer because the players
> made him a healer, not because Keeper wanted an overnight superhealer
> without any effort.
I did see Algy running though TW once a couple years back, no idea what he
was doing there, but it did just happen to coincide with a bunch of poeple
being fallen in OC shortly before. As soon as he saw me he stopped and
played dumb. Haven't seen him active outside of TC since then.
I have been curious about all the money he gets. Does Keeper take it?
Does algy have a bank account? Or does he lose his massive piles of money
during spriggin invasions?
Personally I don't care much one way or another about Algy, but when he is
the only healer on at 3am, I would imagine the fighters appreciate him.
Baff
Helpful GM
Baff <ba...@gemmary.JUNK.com> wrote:
> I have been curious about all the money he gets. Does Keeper take it?
No. (That would be cheating :)
> Does algy have a bank account?
No. (Hasn't learned to use the bank.)
> Or does he lose his massive piles of money
> during spriggin invasions?
Yup.
Lex
> No, we make the rules. DT makes the consequences of the game world.
> DT decides that bad things should happen to bots; we are the ones who
> decide that they are cheaters.
DT doesn't have the means to deal with bots. Algy isn't the only one, he's
just the only one who can get away with it 24/7 in town center. I've seen a
couple people run bots that respond to commands and follow the "real" person
around. And players don't seem to mind. So if players don't care, and DT
can't pay enough attention to catch them, you might as well get away with as
much as you can. I mean, you wouldn't want to go an entire OOC day without
getting a rank - what a fucking nightmare that would be.
Lex
Chum
wrote:
> So if players don't care, and DT
> can't pay enough attention to catch them, you might as well get away with as
> much as you can.
Lame statement of the year award.
--
You have to remove your clothes if you want me to read your e-mail.
I will not, no matter how "good" the deal, ever purchase any product from
any company which gathers addresses from the usenet; period.
Lex
> > can't pay enough attention to catch them, you might as well get away
with as
> > much as you can.
>
> Lame statement of the year award.
And yet, an accurate description of the atmosphere in CL.
Lex
Slyph
Chum <Chum@*YOUR-CLOTHES*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> In article <b42jnt$3o22$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>, "Lex" <co...@mac.com>
> wrote:
>
> > So if players don't care, and DT
> > can't pay enough attention to catch them, you might as well get away with as
> > much as you can.
>
> Lame statement of the year award.
I tink you might be missing Lex's ironic tone.
-Slyph
--
Slyph's scrolls: http://slyph.puddleby.info/
PWC's Journal: http://www.cheap-date.org/journal/
Sunoril
<VelPC@velaru*SPAMME*.net> wrote:
> yes we have the court for that, and oh we see how so well this system
> works.
The court system doesn't work because the jurors fail to do their job.
--
HWC for Sunoril
Sunoril
> So it isn't a true bot, and is instead being used to gain ranks and
> fame so that the clicker can wake up to a highly ranked and famous
> character.
>
> Sounds like a cheat to me.
If the clicker were doing it *with* *the* *goal* of ending with a
highly ranked and famous character, I'd agree. But I don't think he (or
she) is, based on what I've seen of Algy.
--
HWC for Sunoril
Hidden
Sunoril <sun...@rochester.rr.invalid> wrote:
What are you talking about? The court system works almost perfectly. I
can't think of more than one or two cases in which the verdict wasn't
pretty much spot on. The only people who have reason to complain about
the court system are the ones widely hated enough to fall victim to it,
and that's what it's designed to do.
Sunoril
<hid...@no-op.com> wrote:
> What are you talking about? The court system works almost perfectly. I
> can't think of more than one or two cases in which the verdict wasn't
> pretty much spot on. The only people who have reason to complain about
> the court system are the ones widely hated enough to fall victim to it,
> and that's what it's designed to do.
In most of the cases I've seen, the verdict was *not* based on the
evidence presented, but on the personal feelings of the jurors. In many
of the cases I've seen, the charges were ridiculous, yet the defendant
was convicted.
So far as I know, I am not "widely hated", nor have I ever been in
court, save as a spectator or a juror. As for "complain", well, as I
said, I don't think it works properly, for the reason I stated (and, I
would add, that plaintiffs make silly charges, and have not prepared
their case properly). That's not a complaint, it's a statement of
opinion. I doubt very much complaining would do any good, so why would
I bother?
--
HWC for Sunoril
Hidden
Sunoril <sun...@rochester.rr.invalid> wrote:
> In most of the cases I've seen, the verdict was *not* based on the
> evidence presented, but on the personal feelings of the jurors. In many
> of the cases I've seen, the charges were ridiculous, yet the defendant
> was convicted.
This is exactly what it is designed to do.
"Court" is just a metaphor, nothing more.
Lex
> evidence presented, but on the personal feelings of the jurors.
And why should it NOT be this way? Remember, it's not real life, it's not a
"big" place (pick 10 characters randomly there's a good chance I've met 1/2
of them), and much like RL, people are not automatons. They may look at the
evidence but will ultimately go with their instincts.
> As for "complain", well, as I
> said, I don't think it works properly, for the reason I stated (and, I
> would add, that plaintiffs make silly charges, and have not prepared
> their case properly).
Properly? Hmm. We don't have 24/7 lawyers, you know.
Lex
Althea
wrote:
then yer hanging with the wrong crowd?
SWC
Simsu
> In article <040320032144224859%sun...@rochester.rr.invalid>,
> Sunoril <sun...@rochester.rr.invalid> wrote:
>
>
>>In article <VelPC-7E34EC....@netnews.attbi.com>, Neo eXo
>><VelPC@velaru*SPAMME*.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>yes we have the court for that, and oh we see how so well this system
>>>works.
>>
>>The court system doesn't work because the jurors fail to do their job.
>
>
> What are you talking about? The court system works almost perfectly. I
> can't think of more than one or two cases in which the verdict wasn't
> pretty much spot on. The only people who have reason to complain about
> the court system are the ones widely hated enough to fall victim to it,
> and that's what it's designed to do.
The court system works nearly perfectly... That is the coding of the
system works nearly perfectly... The descisions that the jurors come up
with, however, are usually a matter of popularity. This is probably due
to the fact that Pubbleby has not 'written' laws nor anyone to actually
enforce them (If we had any) Some of the other problems are that there
is very little consistancy to which judgements are made and that the
penalties are more or less a joke....
IMHO the most effective penalty is that of banishment but, unfortunatly,
since many people think that a coin fine (That will never get paid back)
is the best (Since it gives a time in jail penalty [since everyone who
looses in court seems to have any money]) the banishment time is never
long enough to be true effective. I'd like to see a base fine for repeat
offenders put into place instead of just an increased, possible, fine.
Perhaps a 500c and 5 day banishment fine for every conviction in the
last puddleby year.
Also another thing I noticed is that the court only remembers prior
convictions that happened in the same puddleby year, not convictions
that happened within the last puddleby year. (Sorry it's been a while it
may not work like that anymore) If it does work like that I'd like to
see it changed to the latter.
salandra
Lex
>
> SWC
Possibly :)
Lots of times there are people who I like and whose company I enjoy but who
don't play CL the way I like, or do things I think are lame. Sometimes
that's okay and I just deal with it. To me, botting and healer slaves take
some of the fun out of dangerous hunts. To others, it adds to the fun. I
make my rounds with the RW crowd now and then because they're a lot of fun,
although some of the things they do seem lame to me. Maybe bordering on
cheating. In the context of Phelps' remark, a large part of the player
community has decided that botting is NOT cheating.
My point, although perhaps I didn't state it well enough, was that botting
is widespread enough that although people may frown upon it a little, a
significant part of the population will not ostracize you for it. And
therefore, it's not likely to stop. Also, the structure of CL facilitates
their existence and usefulness, even though the GMs may have taken small
steps to counteract their usefulness.
As far as Algy goes, at the very least he is there to increase the fun of
others, especially newbies who spend more time hunting in or near town,
which makes him easier to live with than some other bots. I don't really
mind having Algy in town, and I don't really mind being healed by him, but I
also think it's fun that people try to kill him :)
Lex
Michael
> I could tell you Faustus is highly overrated, but in fact it depend on what
> kind of healer you want to be.
Not really. A fast healer can keep a party alive and in action when
slower ones cant. Having a cad is even better, since moonstoners are
really worthless in battle other than keeping themselves up or raising
fallens.
Having hunted with Thuja enough I can say for sure that having a fast
healer with good prox on you can keep a party up MUCH better than
without it.
Michael
Michael
> Just thinking about the fact people are healed by Algy while they don't
> want him to. Would it be possible to have it so that you can't be
> healed by people you /ignore? I just thought that if you don't like
> someone, you might not want to be healed by that person either, so it
> would also work for Algy. Those who don't like him/it can just ignore
> him and /ignore him, and he/it will ignore them too.
>
> Just a thought,
> Drablak
Oh for fucks sake, who gives a shit? There are people in this game that
I wouldnt piss on if they were on fire, but if they walked up and
started healing me so fucking what.
"Oh god, dont raise me! You bastard!". God, if healing you is the
worst thing that someone can do you to count yourself lucky. All the
other games out there worry about PK, but in CL we worry about getting
healed against our will. Jesus christ.
Michael
Michael
> He's a bot and bots aren't allowed. Algy interacts with the CL world
> and gains strength while his player is AFK.
Algy has no player, that is why he is allowed. If DT considered him a
cheat he would have been removed long ago. You might think he is a
cheat, but the fact is you are wrong. DT gets to decide what is
cheating, not you. Get the fuck over it already. Algy is NOT going
anywhere no matter how many people whine about him.
Michael
Michael
> I think the other complaint I've heard is the "newbies learn to depend
> on him" thing, which is REALLY funny, because any healer who's even
> half-awake can always get them before Algy does. Therefore I've been
> forced to the conclusion that anyone that complains about this is just
> too lazy or stupid to outperform a bot.
I think this is the "real" issue. That lazy ass town healers want to
sit there on their ass half afk while reading mail, posting to the NG,
and jerking off but still suck up all the newbie shares around. If algy
was not around they could check on CL every few minutes to see if there
was an injured exile around that they could grace with their healing.
But algy around they exile gets healed right away, god forbid they dont
have to wait for lazy afk town healer to wake up.
And yes, I have seen plenty of injured exiles standing in town with afk
healers sitting there.
Michael
Lorikeet
> Lauri Fried-Lee <frie...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> > I could tell you Faustus is highly overrated, but in fact it depend on what
> > kind of healer you want to be.
>
> Not really. A fast healer can keep a party alive and in action when
> slower ones cant. Having a cad is even better, since moonstoners are
> really worthless in battle other than keeping themselves up or raising
> fallens.
Bullshit. You hunt one way and figure that's it. I'll take Klur over Thuja any
day.
Lorikeet
Sunoril
<hid...@no-op.com> wrote:
> This is exactly what it is designed to do.
That may be your understanding. It's not mine.
> "Court" is just a metaphor, nothing more.
A metaphor for what?
--
HWC for Sunoril