Poor prose and plot of published porn
Xiphias Gladius
So, Lis has been buying BDSM porn to see if she can't get in touch with
her inner horny person, and it just hasn't been working.
The first problem is that, apparently, BDSM porn books are more expensive
than other paperbacks of the same length. So, she's justafiably wary of
buying too many of the damng things.
The second problem is that, well, so far at least, everything she's found
has been crap.
It's real simple. Lis likes stories about women who either are bondange
sluts, or become bondage sluts. She likes mind-control stories where the
victim ends up enjoying her predicament. And, it seems to me, this
shouldn't be too difficult a type of story to find.
But it is. She found one story which was fine, until, in slave training,
the poor slave was instructed to call her breasts "bubbies". This is
quite possibly the least erotic word possible; it ruined the whole book
for her. Sometimes, the dialog is just terrible; usually, the editing
makes the book unreadable. (This, incidentally, isn't a problem
restricted to porn -- apparently, five years ago, every copy editor in
the world decided to spontaneously migrate to some other planet. As
soon as I figure out where they all went, I'm moving there, too, or
at least importing their books. I blame it on the expansion of Usenet.)
Most recently, she was reading her new purchase, a story about a young
bondage slut and her husband, and things were going fine -- and her
husband ties her up and leaves for work.
This killed the mood for Lis. She never read porn growing up, so her
only experience is reality -- and when the porn sets up unrealistic
situations in a supposedly realistic story, it just kills it.
MissJudi
i...@pentagon.io.com (Xiphias Gladius) wrote:
>The second problem is that, well, so far at least, everything she's found
>has been crap.
Quantity and not quality seems to be the key phrase for most
pornography, even the mild stuff.
----------------
Mistress Judi
----------------
Pervhome Keeper
A new religion that'll bring ya to your knees... black velvet, if you please.
remove spambuster to reply in email.
Steven Jones
On 21 Jan 98 19:34:33 GMT, i...@pentagon.io.com (Xiphias Gladius)
wrote:
snip
>The second problem is that, well, so far at least, everything she's found
>has been crap.
>
snip
>
>There are some fine stories tho. Try to find "The Capture of Caroline" it has a great plot, and many other things you are looking for.
Don't know who the author is but I wish he would write more like
it.Better yet pick up on the story after a couple of years........
Master Steven
Conrad Hodson
On 21 Jan 1998, Xiphias Gladius wrote:
> So, Lis has been buying BDSM porn to see if she can't get in touch with
> her inner horny person, and it just hasn't been working.
> <snip>
> The second problem is that, well, so far at least, everything she's found
> has been crap.
><snip>
> This killed the mood for Lis. She never read porn growing up, so her
> only experience is reality -- and when the porn sets up unrealistic
> situations in a supposedly realistic story, it just kills it.
>
I have had the same problem. First of all, Sturgeon's Law applies (90% of
everything is crap). Also Barnum's Law (Nobody _ever_ lost money by
underestimating the taste of the American public.)
Neither of these are unique to bdsm porn. However, on top of these we
have the problem that most of it is made and published "by non-players,
for an audience they do not understand". (Forget who said that, but it's
right on.)
It's gotten a little better in recent years--there are a few of us writing
from experience as opposed to fantasy, and even getting published
occasionally! Laura Antoniou, who posts here, has written three good
novels and two collections, all published by Masquerade. For that matter,
she bought my own first sale, and published it in _By Her Subdued_. John
Warren, who posts here, did a wonderful police procedural mystery novel,
set in the New York bdsm scene--_The Torquemada Killer_. Tammy Jo
Eckhart, Cecilia Tan...this newsgroup includes a number of talented
writers who actually have clues!
Check out Masquerade Books, Circlet Press, _Black Sheets_ magazine,
_Diversity_ magazine...they have fantasy-based stuff too, but also print
material with a reasonable reality quotient, by authors with IQ's above
room temperature. It may take a bit of looking to find stories that turn
her particular crank, but this should be a start. Also, remember that the
average porn shop avoids quality like the plague--in favor of "Bored
Bimbos in Bondage" and the like. She may do better looking in alternative
bookstores' adult sections, rather than porno palaces.
Conrad Hodson
John
Xiphias Gladius wrote:
>
> So, Lis has been buying BDSM porn to see if she can't get in touch with
> her inner horny person, and it just hasn't been working.
> <snip>
> only experience is reality -- and when the porn sets up unrealistic
> situations in a supposedly realistic story, it just kills it.
This is just a reflection of most porn's vapid, teenage phalocentric
view of sex in general. Right now they're filming more of the same
McPorn McNuggets out in the San Fernando Valley. I also just don't see
many English majors attracted the the porn writing field, excpect under
a pseudonum until they become real writers and graduate from obscene sex
to normal subjects like vampires drinking the blood of their victims.
Part of it is the deterioration of writing and editing skills due to the
influence TV and the internet,yes. But most of it revolves around the
furtive, repressed nature of the porn consumer's buying environment.
What is it- perhaps the glaring neon and garish wall of siliconized
flesh, as well as the roar of Times Square and the moaning from the
booths out back, that makes it so little like Barnes and Noble ? It's
not an environment that encourages plot browsing. In Phoenix I visited a
sex mini mall with a leather section a block long ("Shoppers! In Aisle
13- For the next 10 minutes all suspension gear is 25% off!") and that
was a better environment. But for all the size and selection the price
was higher and quality as low as ever.
I think sexual repression is the principal engine of the American
economy after the need to keep warm. Imagine how many fewer video games
and jet skis everyone would buy if they were getting some (I mean really
getting).
I've taken to writing the porn myself.
J.
Xiphias Gladius
Conrad Hodson <con...@efn.org> writes:
>It's gotten a little better in recent years--there are a few of us writing
>from experience as opposed to fantasy, and even getting published
>occasionally! Laura Antoniou, who posts here, has written three good
>novels and two collections, all published by Masquerade. For that matter,
>she bought my own first sale, and published it in _By Her Subdued_. John
>Warren, who posts here, did a wonderful police procedural mystery novel,
>set in the New York bdsm scene--_The Torquemada Killer_. Tammy Jo
>Eckhart, Cecilia Tan...this newsgroup includes a number of talented
>writers who actually have clues!
Lis got a book edited by Cecelia Tan - SM Futures. The problem with it is
that, well, it's good SF short stories. This means that the authors set
up a beliveable society and a plot. This doesn't leave much time to jack
off. There's just not enough *time* in a short story.
- Ian
T. Eckhart
On Fri, 23 Jan 1998 05:40:50 -0800, Conrad Hodson <con...@efn.org> wrote:
>It's gotten a little better in recent years--there are a few of us writing
>from experience as opposed to fantasy, and even getting published
>occasionally! Laura Antoniou, who posts here, has written three good
>novels and two collections, all published by Masquerade. For that matter,
>she bought my own first sale, and published it in _By Her Subdued_. John
>Warren, who posts here, did a wonderful police procedural mystery novel,
>set in the New York bdsm scene--_The Torquemada Killer_. Tammy Jo
>Eckhart, Cecilia Tan...this newsgroup includes a number of talented
>writers who actually have clues!
Why, thank you for including me in this wonderful collection of
talented folks. I'm honored, highly honored to be included in this group.
Unfortunately, the type of books that were being bemoaned over,
get published more easily than bdsm books without sex on every other page.
I've often found myself in a limbo between not being porny enough for
erotica publishers and being too porny for the mainstream.
So I just write what I want, keep trying to get things published,
and focus on school, marriage, my fine new slave, and the possibly to
start training another person I find very attractive on all levels.
Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,
--
TammyJo Eckhart (teck...@kiva.net)
http://www.kiva.net/~teckhart/
Boris Ludmemkov
Umm, well what can I say but....
1) Different strokes for different folks. The humiliation of the childish
'bubbies' may work for some people and not for others. And I've read stories
in which a sub is left alone while tied up and not been outraged by them.
(It's not a safe idea: kiddies do not try this at home.) It happens in real
life I'm sure.
2) Yes, the production standards of all kinds of porn are low to appalling.
(Remember Woody Allen's line: "And those films are so poorly lit!") On the
net at least we have the excuse that most of the stuff is produced by amateurs
and is essentially free. I don't know what excuse people who expect you to
pay for crap make to themselves: especially the morons who have taken the
introduction of cheap video technology as an excuse to drive out of the market
all decent movie porn.
Tell you one area which is of very high quality: comic book erotica. I just
wish we could get it more easily in the UK.
3) If she likes Mind Control I hope she has found the Mind Control Archive
(www.mcstories.com).
4) Has she tried writing porn? Sometimes the only way to get an ideal sexual
fantasy is to create it oneself.
--
Boris Ludmenkov
Pervert and Pornographer
There was a young lady from Ealing,
Who claimed she'd no sexual feeling.
But a cynic called Boris
Just touched her clitoris
And she had to be scraped from the ceiling.
May Censors everywhere have their rectal orifices clogged with Brillo Pads
Xiphias Gladius
bor...@room3b.demon.co.uk (Boris Ludmemkov) writes:
>3) If she likes Mind Control I hope she has found the Mind Control Archive
>(www.mcstories.com).
Yes.
>4) Has she tried writing porn? Sometimes the only way to get an ideal sexual
>fantasy is to create it oneself.
Unfortunately, she had a traumatic experience in college having to do with
a Creative Writing major and a thesis, and hasn't been able to write
anything since.
(No, I'm serious.)
- Ian
Cheryl Trooskin
Joy asked, in response to Conrad:
>>John
>>Warren, who posts here, did a wonderful police procedural mystery novel,
>>set in the New York bdsm scene--_The Torquemada Killer_.
>Never mind that, tell me who published it, and whether it was under his
>own name.
Amazon.com tells me that it was published in late 1995 by
Masquerade, and yes, under his own name. (ISBN 1563333678)
Unsurprisingly, it appears that one can order it from
Diversified Services (http://www.bdsbbs.com/books).
sev
--
s...@byz.org | studly femme & amiable kook | http://www.byz.org/~sev/
"You know, there's nothing sexier than |"MASTURBATION is the radical notion
a girl geek on a big coding run." | that WOMEN can take their sexuality
-- Garry Trudeau's "Doonsebury" | into their own hands" - Miki
Joy Hilbert
Conrad Hodson writes
>John
>Warren, who posts here, did a wonderful police procedural mystery novel,
>set in the New York bdsm scene--_The Torquemada Killer_.
Never mind that, tell me who published it, and whether it was under his
own name.
LadyGold, I think I know what I want with some of the money you owe me
(g)
--
Joy Hilbert
Joy Hilbert
Xiphias Gladius <i...@bermuda.io.com> writes
>Unfortunately, she had a traumatic experience in college having to do with
>a Creative Writing major and a thesis, and hasn't been able to write
>anything since.
>
>(No, I'm serious.)
Us perverts should be able to think of some comparatively gentle way of
desensitising her.
But not without more detail, which you'll probably not want to share )-:
--
Joy Hilbert
Spectrum
{P&M}
In article <1ZX0bODd...@hilbert.demon.co.uk>,
Joy Hilbert <hil...@hilbert.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Conrad Hodson writes
>>John
>>Warren, who posts here, did a wonderful police procedural mystery novel,
>>set in the New York bdsm scene--_The Torquemada Killer_.
>
>Never mind that, tell me who published it, and whether it was under his
>own name.
Masquerade, ISBN 1-56333-367-8, yes. And it's well worth getting. When
ya gonna do another, John?
I found this recently at my own Bible Belt Borders Bookstore. Dunno about
the UK, but it's out there. Interestingly, it was difficult to find
anything kinky in the local chain bookstore, until a number of others
opened up in town, and then suddenly there are numerous kinky ones
available.
y
And the local gay bookstore has still not stocked anything kinky: it
"oppresses womyn".
-^-^spectrum-^^- domain magenta.com user spectrum Cupcake #697
Tales of the ASBWorld: http://magenta.com/lmnop/users/spectrum/index.html
The description of Pervhome and the Guestbook are there also.
"You have to remember that American publishers believe that their
readers are Spam-sucking trailer trash who'll buy whatever's
shoved on the stand at the local store, and it embarrasses them
when they take an interest." - Terry Pratchett
Conrad Hodson
On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, Joy Hilbert wrote:
> Conrad Hodson writes
> >John
> >Warren, who posts here, did a wonderful police procedural mystery novel,
> >set in the New York bdsm scene--_The Torquemada Killer_.
>
> Never mind that, tell me who published it, and whether it was under his
> own name.
Yes, he did, and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. The two "threads"
of the ending show a particularly fine sense of justice....
_The Torquemada Killer_, John Warren, Masquerade Books, New York, 1995.
Conrad Hodson
Pat Powers
In article <ian.88...@xanadu.io.com>, i...@pentagon.io.com (Xiphias
Gladius) wrote:
> So, Lis has been buying BDSM porn to see if she can't get in touch with
> her inner horny person, and it just hasn't been working.
>
With very few exceptions, the best erotica being written is being written
on the Net, often by amateurs. The traditional print media suck at writing
good porn.
If Lis has some patience, try "A Pirate's Love" by Johanna Lindsey. It's
mild BDSM porn. And it's a romance. Romances are moving in this direction,
slowly but perceptibly. Mostly it's domination, but there is a bit of
bondage.
--
Visit www.islandford.w1.com and know the beauty and terror of Karg, enjoy
the Fauxtoons and the Celebrity Clones, and generally have a good time --
mostly for free.
RJ-
bor...@room3b.demon.co.uk (Boris Ludmemkov) writes:
>3) If she likes Mind Control I hope she has found the Mind Control Archive
>(www.mcstories.com).
A very nice site, indeed. Not only for mind-control fans, but because the
overall writing quality is pretty darn good.
Nothing worse than hitting a dangling participle during one-handed
reading. :)
RJ
RJ-
i...@bermuda.io.com (Xiphias Gladius) writes:
>Unfortunately, she had a traumatic experience in college having to do with
>a Creative Writing major and a thesis, and hasn't been able to write
>anything since.
>(No, I'm serious.)
OK, Ian, I gotta ask for the explanation on this one. Not to make light
of your lady's dilemma, but I'm curious.
Oh, btw, "Hi." It's been awhile.
RJ
JWarrenZ
>>Never mind that, tell me who published it, and whether it was under his
>>own name.
>
>ya gonna do another, John?
Thanks for the compliment. I doubt if I will be doing any more books. I
simply can't afford it any more. I've got a vanilla action adventure
completed, but have gotten exactly zero interest from the agents and a BDSM
locked room mystery about half finished.
I started writing when I had enough savings to support me while I wrote full
time (really the only way I can keep track of all the strings in a complex
plot). Now I'm considerably poorer and can't afford to take the kind of time
off that I'd need to write another book. Five percent of a $6.95 book does not
buy a lot of hamberger.
copied and emailed
John Warren (mentor)
Boston Dungeon Society BBS Diversified Services
Web: http://www.bdsbbs.com Toys & Books for the Scene
Telnet: bdsbbs.com Email: Men...@bdsbbs.com
Logon: 617-397-8844
JWarrenZ
>Unsurprisingly, it appears that one can order it from
>Diversified Services (http://www.bdsbbs.com/books).
Many thanks.
I don't even know the URL for the books section but the Diversified Services
page can always be entered from the main Boston Dungon Society page at
www.bdsbbs.com
Anthony Hilbert
"T. Eckhart" writes
> Unfortunately, the type of books that were being bemoaned over,
>get published more easily than bdsm books without sex on every other page.
>I've often found myself in a limbo between not being porny enough for
>erotica publishers and being too porny for the mainstream.
>
When I finished my trunk novel I sent it round the mainstream publishers
and was told "this is pornography, we can't touch it." (Seeing some of
their published stuff, I think they should have more honestly said "this
is =kinky= pornography.")
So I sent it to the porn people. Two of them so far have accepted it,
sat on it, hummed and hahed and suggested rewrites, and finally told me
it isn't hot enough, meaning that all that uncommercial plot and
character and stuff gets in the way of the flog-and-fuck.
Given that there are so many of us writing books like this and so many
of us wanting to read them, can't anyone get it together to start
printing the furshlinger things? Or should I just give up and find
someone to put it on the Web?
--
Anthony Hilbert
"I don't much mind where -"
"Then it doen't much matter which way you go."
"So long as I get =somewhere=," said Alice, trying to make it clear.
"Oh, you're sure to do that," said the Cat, "if you only walk long enough."
Nightwind
Anthony Hilbert <hil...@hilbert.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<A6PJTcA9...@hilbert.demon.co.uk>...
> Given that there are so many of us writing books like this and so many
> of us wanting to read them, can't anyone get it together to start
> printing the furshlinger things? Or should I just give up and find
> someone to put it on the Web?
> --
> Anthony Hilbert
>
It seems some how unfair to some one trying to make a living writing to
just "give up" and post his/her work for nothing (no offence to the
WONDERFUL folks who do post to the story newsgroups). What we need is an
enterprising some one (or some ones) to try a "home publishing" biz, then
authors who have LARGE works could tell there friends/fans where to get
copies for, oh say half what the "Flog & Fuck" publishers are charging for
there dreck.
--
Shade & Sweet Water. . . . . .
Nightwind
Lawless
Xiphias Gladius :
> Lis got a book edited by Cecelia Tan - SM Futures. The problem with it is
> that, well, it's good SF short stories. This means that the authors set
> up a beliveable society and a plot. This doesn't leave much time to jack
> off. There's just not enough *time* in a short story.
*nod* That's one reason, I think, that "SM Pasts", I think it was, worked
a bit better. Using historical settings fills the societal atmosphere
from the reader's mind, leaving more space for good stuff. I especially
remember one set in the old West : a cowboy who meets a stranger, lets
himself be bound over a saddle and tormented : only to find out that the
strange cowboy rancher is, well, I don't want to spoil it. Was fairly
hot for me, and I rarely find male/male things hot.
Oh - for -good- hot short stories, three of the best I can think of are
the two Leatherwomen books (editted by L. Antoniou) and of course, Pat
Califia's "Macho Sluts" : possibly the hottest, best written BDSM ever
read (at least by me <g>)
Sadly, I've been unable to find "The Torquemada Killer" or TJE's books
as yet, but I'm looking.
-- | In your head, no car is fast enough,
-- \_awless is : Chase Vogelsberg | In your heart, no love is true.
-- | Will it ruin all your solitary fancies
-- | If I tell you that it isn't only you?
-- A wolf by any other flame.... | -- Emma Bull
T. Eckhart
On 26 Jan 1998 10:32:21 -0500, Lawless <law...@howling.com> wrote:
>Sadly, I've been unable to find "The Torquemada Killer" or TJE's books
>as yet, but I'm looking.
You can get my books and the novel from Dr. Warren from Masquerade
Books couple of different ways.
1-800-375-2356
FAX 212-986-7355
email: mas...@aol.com
or write to Masquerade Direct dept BMRH97 801 2nd Ave, NY NY
10017.
Also on my web page, I've links to places where I know you can get
my books.
Sadly, I don't think I'll have more books coming from Masquerade
after this. They seem to want more blantant sexual action while my books
tend to focus on characters, plots, power exchange and pyschology. Oh,
there is still blantant sexul action which tends toward the more intense
and hardcore SM, just not on every other page.
And thanks again to everyone who has read my work and told me they
like it. Gives me energy to keep writing, even if publishers are rare and
even if I'm hyper-protective of my work.
Xiphias Gladius
Joy Hilbert <hil...@hilbert.demon.co.uk> writes:
>Xiphias Gladius <i...@bermuda.io.com> writes
>>Unfortunately, she had a traumatic experience in college having to do with
>>a Creative Writing major and a thesis, and hasn't been able to write
>>anything since.
>>
>>(No, I'm serious.)
>Us perverts should be able to think of some comparatively gentle way of
>desensitising her.
>But not without more detail, which you'll probably not want to share )-:
Not much to the story. She, in college, was a creative writing major, and
she was required to turn out a couple hundred pages of original fiction.
She couldn't do it, panicked for several weeks, and burned out on creative
writing entirely. That's all.
- Ian
JWarrenZ
>They seem to want more blantant sexual action while my books
>tend to focus on characters, plots, power exchange and pyschology.
Damn, you mean I embarrassed myself reading your book on that nude beach and
they want MORE blatant sexual action?
emailed and posted
Joe Zeff
i...@pentagon.io.com (Xiphias Gladius) wrote:
>Not much to the story. She, in college, was a creative writing major, and
>she was required to turn out a couple hundred pages of original fiction.
>She couldn't do it, panicked for several weeks, and burned out on creative
>writing entirely. That's all.
>
Have her try to write one page, no more, no less. If she *can* do
that[1], have her try for two pages. Continue until either she can't
or panics. Drop back a few pages, to give some margin and have her
write more. Then, when she's comfortable with that, bring her up
again slowly. If she really wants to work through her block, this may
help. Just knowing that she can write a little can be a big help.
[1]If she's really badly blocked, even this may be too much, but one
can hope.
---
Joe Zeff
The Guy With the Sideburns
If you can't play with words, what good are they?
http://www.lasfs.org
T. Eckhart
On 26 Jan 1998 16:43:12 GMT, JWarrenZ <jwar...@aol.com> wrote:
>>They seem to want more blantant sexual action while my books
>>tend to focus on characters, plots, power exchange and pyschology.
>
>Damn, you mean I embarrassed myself reading your book on that nude beach and
>they want MORE blatant sexual action?
Apparently my writing makes people think more than it makes then
hard/wet, at least that is the strong impression I got from the "erotica"
publishers currently. Mainstreamers say "too much sex" which often seems
to mean it isn't negative enough sex.
You know, John, every time I remember this wonderful compliment
about my first book, it makes me smile. It makes it worth my effort and
assures me that I do write well and that I'm not completely weird in terms
of what comes into my head.
Ah, well, this is publishing folks. Ups and downs, changes
constantly. I just need to write for my own happiness. I'm glad it
touches some folks.
(and thanks, John, for the compliment again)
L Antoniou
John Warren wrote:
>I started writing when I had enough savings to support me while I wrote >full
time (really the only way I can keep track of all the strings in a >complex
plot). Now I'm considerably poorer and can't afford to take the >kind of time
off that I'd need to write another book. Five percent of a >$6.95 book does
not buy a lot of hamberger.
That's why you have to write 16 or 17 of them, John! Or at least edit a half a
dozen anthologies and write the same number of novels. (Grin)
Hm. Come to think of it, even when you do put out that much, it still
doesn't seem to be able to do more than be a nice addition to what would be a
normal living wage.
Fact is, porn publishing as a career sucks, big time. And I say that as
one of the successful ones, with probably 90-100 thousand books in print right
now. Sure, pile up all my royalties and it looks like a pretty penny. But
when you stretch it out over seven or eight years, you get kind of surprised.
That's why when I considered myself a full time writer, I was also editing two
magazines and selling "true stories" to porn magazines the variety of which
would make me the most polymorphous of perverts, at $100 a shot.
Regarding the "sex every other page" issue, though, there's plenty of
room for disagreement there. When I reach for porn to jerk off to, I must
admit that lengthy depictions of *exactly the kinds of perverted activities I
like to get off to* - (note the emphasis) - is what I look for. Plot be
damned. Character development? Pshaw. Get to the point, I'm wearing down the
batteries here. . .
On the other hand, I'm an absolute *failure* at writing that sort of
thing! My editors used to constantly send my
naughty-letters-of-real-life-sexual-exploits back with notes attached saying
"start the sex on page two!", or "add more details about the size of her tits!"
(or "his dick", as the case might be.)
Instead, I write entire fucking novels of plot and character and situation
and every bloody detail I can remember to write about, with two pages of sex
now and then. The most common complaint I get from readers is "not enough
stuff to jerk off to". What can I say? I don't read my own stuff to jerk off
to, so I agree.
But of course, I have a whole case of badly written, straight to the
point, "what Laura likes to read for J/O" books, and less than one shelf of
books about people who do SM which I read for non-genital enjoyment. I once
had so many trashy porn books, I gave half of them away and never missed them -
after all, it was mostly the same stuff anyway.
But thoughtful novels containing characters I can appreciate in situations
I am interested in? *sigh* My tastes are so narrow already, what's left is
not very encouraging.
So, I don't know whether I can recommend trying to write your own porn -
it's not something everyone wants to or can do. And even if you want to, and
have the patience, talent, typing speed or whatever - you can't guarantee that
what comes out of your mind will get what's between your legs to that happy
state. On the other hand - if it stimulates that huge sex organ between your
ears, you just might have something that I'd like. . .(Grin)
Laura
=======================================================
LW III - Feb. 1998 * Tales of the Marketplace, Autumn 1998
The Marketplace & The Slave & Leatherwomen all have new covers!
WhyNot789
Lawless <law...@howling.com> wrote:
>Oh - for -good- hot short stories, three of the best I can think of
>are the two Leatherwomen books (editted by L. Antoniou) and
>of course, Pat Califia's "Macho Sluts" : possibly the hottest, best
>written BDSM ever read (at least by me <g>)
Yeah, the two "Leatherwomen" books are excellent. Another
very nice collection is Laura Antoniou's "Some Women".
Highly recommended. Other books we really like are "Coming
to Power" and "The second Coming". Pat Califia's "Melting Point"
has one truly excellent story as well (it's the first story called
"Big Girls").
Pity we haven't been able to find John Warren's and Tammy Jo
Eckhart's books over here. <Sigh>
BTW, is it just coincidence that most of the really good BDSM
stories and novels have been written by women? Does anyone
have any thoughts on this?
Hans+Cora
Gorgik
Hans+Cora (whyn...@aol.com) wrote:
>BTW, is it just coincidence that most of the really good BDSM
>stories and novels have been written by women? Does anyone
>have any thoughts on this?
It depends a lot on what you mean by "really good." i know
gay erotica best, and there are plenty of BDSM stories and novels
written by men for men that i consider "really good." And a few
written by women for gay men! Some names: David May, Aaron
Travis, John Preston (with reservations; i like his early stories
the best, not the famous novels), Clay Caldwell, Victor Terry,
Jay Schaffer, Max Exander, Paul Martin, Hoddy Allen, Larry
Townsend (the recent mystery novels are his best writing), Kyle
Stone, Mason Powell, . . . . Everyone's work is more or less
uneven, but each of these has at times reached the level of the
best stories in Califia's "Macho Sluts," which i agree is something
like a gold standard for BDSM erotica. Then again, Califia
doesn't always write at the top of her form, either.
Nonetheless, i think there's a nubbin of truth in what you say,
if by "really good" one means in part, "persuasively conveys
the feelings of characters who are enjoying what they're doing."
Male writers in the erotic field often get so hung up on the
mechanics of which organ is plugging which orifice that they
forget to create believable characters with feelings readers
can identify with. It may be a sexist stereotype, but it's also often
true that men tend to begin with sex and deal with feelings later,
if at all, while women tend to begin with feelings and only reach
sexual connections through emotive relationships.
Here's an example: i stumbled across a gay BDSM serial in a
newsgroup recently that was so dense with character and
sensitive to feelings that it blew me away. i'd never read
anything like it before -- except the novel i'm writing myself!
So i sent a fan letter to the author, who turned out to be a
submissive leatherdyke!
Gee, maybe that means i'm a lesbian in disguise myself? <g>
Anyway, to throw in my two cents on the original question of
this thread, why is so much published porn so bad, there are
at least two reasons: (1) the pay stinks, so it's not worth it for
a good writer to do it unless it's a labor of love, and (2) in an
increasingly aliterate culture, fewer and fewer readers care -- most are
either watching videos or flipping the pages of picture
magazines.
And as for editing, forget it! Even respectable mainstream
fiction is published these days with little or no copy editing.
See (2) above.
david stein
(two of my pieces are in the anthology "Horsemen: Leathersex
Short Fiction" edited by Joseph Bean and published last fall by
Leyland)
nayat
I've followed this thread for a while and would like to propose a
solution. The first porn, as with most literature, was virtually self
published. The writer would pay for the materials and the printer would
then print the book and sell it. We now have a method of printing which
doesn't require material, the Internet. There is a site, Xlibris
(www.Xlibris.com) which will publish virtually anything on line, then
publishes a hard copy book of it. The Author pays a fee and gets
royalties back as the book sells. As we write and publish good porn maybe
the more mainstream markets will be more accepting of it as we can prove
there is a market.
There is another, more iffy proposition. Some of the writers on this list
should take the time and effort to see if they can write a mainstream
novel, no porn, or incidental porn, and enter the lottery to see if they
can get it published. If they win that lottery and the book goes big then
they could write a more kinky book, the publisher would accept it since
you've already made them a pile and have a certain audience and maybe that
would set off the market sources for a more artistic form of porn.
The publishing industry has had some real shocks in the last several years
and has yet to catch up with the new technologies, but all that we require
is for one of us to get a best seller with S/m as a theme, or more
possibly, get a best selling writer to write an S/m book which appeals to
the mass audience then we'd see people running to publish our stuff, until
the audience went somewhere else. Publishing is a business now more than
ever. It, as are the movies and Broadway, is controled by accountants and
lawyers. The presence of Masquerade Books and the other publishers
mentioned is a matter of the fact that there is a market out there for
what we want to read. The fact that Mr. Kasak wants more sex than art is
a reflection of the audience wanting more to beat off to. (What turns me
on about the Marketplace books is the plot and characters but I've been in
the entertainment industry too long.) We find out how to get those forces
on our side and we get the better porn we're looking for.
Nayat
Anthony Hilbert
Nightwind writes
>It seems some how unfair to some one trying to make a living writing to
>just "give up" and post his/her work for nothing (no offence to the
>WONDERFUL folks who do post to the story newsgroups). What we need is an
>enterprising some one (or some ones) to try a "home publishing" biz, then
>authors who have LARGE works could tell there friends/fans where to get
>copies for, oh say half what the "Flog & Fuck" publishers are charging for
>there dreck.
Believe me, if I win the lottery, it's about the second thing on my
list. (I've done half the research already.) But there's no other way
it's going to happen, I'm afraid. We are talking big investment, even
with the savings represented by electronic composition.
--
Anthony Hilbert
Pagan pervert polyamorous pothead pornographer and proud of it
T. Eckhart
On Sun, 25 Jan 1998 10:27:09 +0000, Anthony Hilbert wrote:
>Given that there are so many of us writing books like this and so many
>of us wanting to read them, can't anyone get it together to start
>printing the furshlinger things? Or should I just give up and find
>someone to put it on the Web?
Well, in order to publisher you needs lots of capital up front.
So that would require someone or a group of someones with money and time
and skills. Don't look my way, I'm busy with grad school and not even
within sight of rich by any means.
As for publishing on the web or internet, this is purely my
personal opinion. I'm not confident that it could be protected out here
so I never post my fiction or essays unless they have been previously
published and copyrighted. For me, what I write in my fiction in in my
"personal" essays all contains parts of me -- and I protect myself as much
as possible.
But that would be a decision for you to make for yourself.
Another suggestion would be for all these folks who say they want
more plot and characters to start writing to the erotica publishers and
tell them that. Also to write to mainstream publishers and tell them you
want more sex positive work, stop the bdsm=violence/murder/rape stuff. As
someone said, it is money that plays a big part in this. Then its
personalities, publishers hold the cards in many many regards and when
personalities clash or new editors are brought in things can change
suddenly for everyone involved.
But its this life in general?
L Antoniou
I do not suggest that any professional writer ever "pay a fee" to have their
work published. If what you're publishing is for your own pleasure and you
have the money to burn, then go ahead. But far too maby vanity presses will
take your check and the promised "royalties" will never appear. Check with the
annual Writers Guide to Publishing Markets for a few of the more above-board
vanity presses if you really want to go that route.
Also, thanks to the volumes of material gathered online, written by
people who believe, "if it's online, it's mine", I would not make available an
original work unless I never intended to sell it later on and wouldn't get
upset if I saw someone else's name on it. It's bad enough I have to waste my
time asking people not to type in my already published work and give it away
via their web sites; it's hard to imagine what might happen if one of those
amateur copyright mavens decides to make my life even more difficult. (Or,
more likely, that someone who "just didn't know" made an error of ignorance
that ends up costing me more tsuris than I can handle.)
There have been a few "mainstream" novels about bondage/SM - "Topping
from Below" comes to mind, although I thought it was awful. "Gerald's Game" is
more of the "nightmare about bondage/SM" genre, I suppose, and not terribly
erotic. But I wouldn't count on someone selling a bestselling mainstream novel
and then talking their publisher into going off into a little porn because
their name will sell it. Editors and publishers are by nature conservative;
and unless a first book actually hits the NYT bestseller list, (I believe
that's 200,000 books, someone correct me if they've revised the figure), no
author is going to get carte blanche for a second one if the topic/subject
doesn't pass muster with the suits. First of all, they will not project
similar sales of a genre book; if the first was not sexual/SM in nature, then
why would the audience for the second book be as large? They might try
anything from convincing said author to at least tone down the erotic/SM
content, or they might drop them and go on to the next hot writer without a
single look back.
Remember that Anne Rice waited until after her father was dead *and* she
had millions in royalties before *really* coming out of the closet as an erotic
author, and she is far from what we could call "one of us" - in every interview
about the subject, she compares doing SM with being a vampire, and since she
didn't have to grow fans to write about bloodsuckers, why do people assune she
spanks people in order to write about perverts? Why indeed. But there's your
"mainstream author who has written a novel about SM" - and I don't mean the
Beauty books. I'd call "Exit to Eden" one of thebetter selling SM novels ever,
but I didn't see a rush to publish similar tales. (Unless you count the two
titles I mentioned before. . .)
We have already proven that there is a market for porn. There always has
been - now, it's just become more accessible. Look at the erotica section of
any large Borders and see the shelves packed with titles from Masquerade and
Blue Moon and those oddball presses that fill in the gaps. However, this
market doesn't buy books anywhere near the number needed to be called a
"bestseller". We're a niche market, like fantasy fiction. And if a Tracy
Hickman and Margaret Weiss duo hit the Bestseller list six times in a row, that
won't change a single thing to the publishers who know that the average swords
and dragons book will sell a modest but good 15,000 copies. (I won't even get
into the way that the books are marketed! It's one of my pet peeves that my
shelves are full of cheap paperbacks which are rich in character and story, and
glossy hard-covers whose value is "doorstopper".)
Ack, I can go on and on, and it has nothing to do with having fun while
doing SM. So, I'm going to drop out of the discussion on the realities of the
publishing industry with only one final comment:
Writers are part of the lifeblood of the entire SM world; a significant
part. How many people can trace back the first time they realized that there
was a name for the things they dreamed about, and that other people out there
had similar dreams? How many times does a word, or a turn of phrase just set
off that deep recognition, that moment of "click" wherein you realize that
*this fits me*? How many times have people used characters as models upon
which to base behavior, or roles? And certainly, how many of us have used our
writing as one of the ways to woo a partner?
I think we really need to cherish writers a little more, whether they
put their work in trashy looking paperbacks, glossy hard covers or on their web
pages, or in their 'zines. Doesn't anyone find it odd that the leather
community honors handsome men and dynamic women with stage presence, but
doesn't have an established award for "best new fiction", or "best new
non-fiction"? That you can be recognized as a "community leader" a "business
person", or even a "couple" - but we don't recognize writers unless they also
happen to be one of the above, or they are considered long-standing survivors
of the community, ie.: "forbearers"?
Just a thought.
Nightwind
L Antoniou <lant...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19980127184...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
<snip>
> We're a niche market, like fantasy fiction. And if a Tracy
> Hickman and Margaret Weiss duo hit the Bestseller list six times in a
row, that
> won't change a single thing to the publishers who know that the average
swords
> and dragons book will sell a modest but good 15,000 copies. (
Niche market?! Niche market?! Fantasy? a niche market?! Ghhhhaa! I've
been segregated to yet another minority demographic! And with Eddings
"Polgara" on the best sellers list too!
Hmm. fantasy, S/m . . . . Hmmm :-)
Thomas Covenant, professional masochist!
<snip>
>Doesn't anyone find it odd that the leather
> community honors handsome men and dynamic women with stage presence, but
> doesn't have an established award for "best new fiction", or "best new
> non-fiction"? That you can be recognized as a "community leader" a
"business
> person", or even a "couple" - but we don't recognize writers unless they
also
> happen to be one of the above, or they are considered long-standing
survivors
> of the community, ie.: "forbearers"?
> Just a thought.
> Laura
It doesn't strike me as odd. Until the B/D/s/M community gets a HIGH
quality publication (I envision a sort of "Time" for kink), the only ones
giving out awards will be the organizations the awards are about, and how
many kinky story appreciation societies are there nowadays?
Maybe SSBB should start giving out it's own awards? Just a thought.
--
"Y'know, chips, dips, chains, whips," . . . "a typical teenage orgy!"
Nightwind
L Antoniou
teck...@sherrill.kiva.net (T. Eckhart) wrote:
>Another suggestion would be for all these folks who say they want
>more plot and characters to start writing to the erotica publishers and
>tell them that.
That's a really good idea, considering a small volume of mail that these
companies usually get. *Any* change in the amount and content is bound to be
picked up by a marketing director, if not the editor her/himself.
Conrad Hodson
On 27 Jan 1998, L Antoniou wrote:
> I think we really need to cherish writers a little more, whether they
> put their work in trashy looking paperbacks, glossy hard covers or on their web
> pages, or in their 'zines. Doesn't anyone find it odd that the leather
> community honors handsome men and dynamic women with stage presence, but
> doesn't have an established award for "best new fiction", or "best new
> non-fiction"? That you can be recognized as a "community leader" a "business
> person", or even a "couple" - but we don't recognize writers unless they also
> happen to be one of the above, or they are considered long-standing survivors
> of the community, ie.: "forbearers"?
A few months before his death, we in Eugene had the privilege of a
bookstore evening with John Preston. My favorite anecdote dealt with this
matter of reward and recognition:
He had just had his first big success as a writer; "Looking for Mr.
Benson" was running as a serial in _Drummer_ magazine. A friend tipped
him that hunky guys were actually waiting in line for the new issue; he
went down and found out it was true. Even better, one hot-looking young
man in the line was wearing a T-shirt that said "Looking for Mr. Benson".
"It was one of those moments of blinding insight in a writer's life,"
Preston told us, remembered awe still in his voice. "Suddenly, I
realized---I could get LAID from this!"
Conrad Hodson
Who thinks Laura's made a damn good point
lori ann selke
In article <19980127005...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Gorgik <gor...@aol.com> wrote:
Drifting from the main subject just a bit:
>Anyway, to throw in my two cents on the original question of
>this thread, why is so much published porn so bad, there are
>at least two reasons: (1) the pay stinks, so it's not worth it for
>a good writer to do it unless it's a labor of love...
<snip>
It's true. I recently told an interviewer who asked me about
the stereotypes I've encountered about porn writers. I told
her folks seemed to think that we were all well-payed and oversexed.
I only wish.
I also wanted to comment that another reason there's so much
bad porn out there is more or less economies of scale --
it's easier to write bad than good, so you can write bad stuff
faster, so you can scrape up enough money to make it a worthwhile
pursuit, at least monetarily speaking. In other words,
you can compensate for bad pay by much volume.
Lori
--
se...@midway.uchicago.edu
se...@io.com
"Get up, wipe the slugs off your face. You'll be ready for a new day."
-- My Own Private Idaho
lori ann selke
In article <slrn6cs8lg....@sherrill.kiva.net>,
T. Eckhart <teck...@sherrill.kiva.net> wrote:
> Another suggestion would be for all these folks who say they want
>more plot and characters to start writing to the erotica publishers and
>tell them that. Also to write to mainstream publishers and tell them you
>want more sex positive work, stop the bdsm=violence/murder/rape stuff.
Hey. My Kink is OK, too. You don't have to stop violence/murder/rape
stuff in order to make room for sex-positive work. This is not a
zero-sum game.
I want to see more, *lots* more, sex-positive fiction out there.
I'm even producing some (in fact, my writing tends to be
*relentlesly* sex-positive, at times...) But, like Laura
Antoniou, what gets me off isn't the same kind of stuff
as what I write. I like 'em both, but it's that violent
nonconsensual stuff that gets me between my legs faster.
And if it comes with bdsm trappings, so much the better.
I admit it.
Now if only some of *that* were better written. :P
lori ann selke
>There is another, more iffy proposition. Some of the writers on this list
>should take the time and effort to see if they can write a mainstream
>novel, no porn, or incidental porn, and enter the lottery to see if they
>can get it published. If they win that lottery and the book goes big then
>they could write a more kinky book, the publisher would accept it since
>you've already made them a pile and have a certain audience and maybe that
>would set off the market sources for a more artistic form of porn.
As far as I can tell, this strategy doesn't work. Publishers
prefer a book like the last one you wrote -- that's what built
the audience, that's what sold. They want consistency, not
artistic risks.
This is not 100% true, of course, and I don't mean to be cynical.
I'm just pointing out that it's not that easy, sell a big
book and then write whatever the hell you want afterwards.
Kevin Muñoz
In article <01bd2b75$504662c0$1bc5accf@oemcomputer>, "Nightwind"
<Nigh...@erols.com> wrote:
> Hmm. fantasy, S/m . . . . Hmmm :-)
>
> Thomas Covenant, professional masochist!
Heheh. Maybe that's why I liked him so much...
> It doesn't strike me as odd. Until the B/D/s/M community gets a HIGH
> quality publication (I envision a sort of "Time" for kink), the only ones
> giving out awards will be the organizations the awards are about, and how
> many kinky story appreciation societies are there nowadays?
Okay, that does it. I'm going out and creating a Time/Kink hybrid magazine.
I'll call it...
Tink.
Or maybe:
Tinkle.
--
Kevin Munoz
Kevin Muñoz
In article <19980126210...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
lant...@aol.com (L Antoniou) wrote:
> Instead, I write entire fucking novels of plot and character and
situation
> and every bloody detail I can remember to write about, with two pages of sex
> now and then. The most common complaint I get from readers is "not enough
> stuff to jerk off to". What can I say? I don't read my own stuff to jerk off
> to, so I agree.
Hah. I found this statement really, really amusing. Of your work that I
have read (_The Marketplace_ et al.), pretty much every page is something
I jerk off to.
Go figure. It's not the sex that gets me off---it really, truly is the
plot, character and situation. Page after page of sex would never interest
me. I much prefer emotion, psychology, innuendo, attitude---
Hm. I must be a pervert and a sicko. ;)
--
Kevin Munoz
T. Eckhart
On Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:42:55 GMT, lori ann selke wrote:
>In article <slrn6cs8lg....@sherrill.kiva.net>,
>T. Eckhart <teck...@sherrill.kiva.net> wrote:
>
>> Another suggestion would be for all these folks who say they want
>>more plot and characters to start writing to the erotica publishers and
>>tell them that. Also to write to mainstream publishers and tell them you
>>want more sex positive work, stop the bdsm=violence/murder/rape stuff.
>
>Hey. My Kink is OK, too. You don't have to stop violence/murder/rape
>stuff in order to make room for sex-positive work. This is not a
>zero-sum game.
>
>I want to see more, *lots* more, sex-positive fiction out there.
>I'm even producing some (in fact, my writing tends to be
>*relentlesly* sex-positive, at times...) But, like Laura
>Antoniou, what gets me off isn't the same kind of stuff
>as what I write. I like 'em both, but it's that violent
>nonconsensual stuff that gets me between my legs faster.
>And if it comes with bdsm trappings, so much the better.
>I admit it.
Most of what I write and have had published is non-consensual in
that it takes place in worlds where slavery exists.
The stuff I've seen that gets published though which is remotely
bdsm-like takes places in todays world and involves murder and stuff. I
won't write that, that obviously people buy it and enjoy.
And no ideally it isn't a zero-sum game. But it certainly seems
like the concept of consensual or placed in a historical connotation just
doesn't get published.
Which has raised an interesting question that has nothing to do
with bdsm but with historical slavery. Can a slave really be raped?
(oh, boy did I just ask a tough question and I'm heading out of
town for the weekend)
Forget the above question. Too philosophical at this point and I
wouldn't see any replies anyway.
(can you tell I'm in a Roman seminar this semester?)
L Antoniou
Andrew Conway
If memory serves me right, in article
<slrn6d2ceb....@sherrill.kiva.net>, T. Eckhart
<teck...@sherrill.kiva.net> says...
>
> Which has raised an interesting question that has nothing to do
> with bdsm but with historical slavery. Can a slave really be raped?
>
I would think that if somebody had sex with the slave without the
permission of the slave or the slave's owner, that would be rape.
However, I think our are asking if an owner can rape a slave, right?
There are a number of historical societies in which some form of slavery
existed. Legally, in some of those the owners had sexual rights over
their slaves and in others they did not. However, I suspect that in most
of them an owner would have sufficient control over the slave that if the
master were interested in sex, the slave's choices would be to consent or
to face extreme suffering of one sort or another. (That was a horrible
reality, but very hot for some of us in fantasy.)
As an aside on historical slavery, the feudal system was never repealed
in England, and so is presumably still the law of the land. The reason
there are no serfs any more is that serfdom descends through the
legitimate male line, and that eventually most serfs were able to get
themselves legally declared bastards (often by a payment to the lord of
the manor) and therefore be released from bondage.
The need for legitimate offspring to maintain the feudal system gave the
aristocracy a sound economic incentive for not porking the retainers, but
instead for upholding family values. Unfortunately this is not the case
with the current US Administration.
Andrew
[posted/mailed]
Nightwind
Kevin Muñoz <ke...@tesarta.com> wrote in article
<kevin-29019...@norcal56k182.netwiz.net>...
> Okay, that does it. I'm going out and creating a Time/Kink hybrid
magazine.
>
> I'll call it...
>
> Tink.
>
> Or maybe:
>
> Tinkle.
>
> Kevin Munoz
ROFLOL ;-)
(and now a few minutes with Andy Roony)
Did ya ever wonder about pierced nipples? I know I do.
do they ever come off? what do you do if you want to go swimming?
can women where them under there swimsuits without them showing?
what about the guys? is the tank top back in vogue for men?
and is there any thing other than hoops? what about a nice pair of teardrop
earrings?
are clip-ons considered tacky?
(chuckle)
--
"Y'know, chips, dips, chains, whips," . . . . "a typical teenage orgy!"
weird science.
Nightwind
KingDiaper
In article <slrn6cs8lg....@sherrill.kiva.net>,
teck...@sherrill.kiva.net (T. Eckhart) writes:
> Well, in order to publisher you needs lots of capital up front.
>So that would require someone or a group of someones with money and time
>and skills. Don't look my way, I'm busy with grad school and not even
>within sight of rich by any means.
With respect, it's not necessarily true that you need a lot of money to become
a publisher. Speaking only of my experience in the UK, "becoming a publisher"
was as simple as applying to the authorities for a block of ISBNs (minimum 10)!
The next step was to print the book (we did 1000 copies, 100 pages each - total
cost about $1000), and making sure we complied with some minor legal nicities
(like putting the ISBN on the cover and inside, and including a copyright
notice).
Finally, we had to send a couple of copies to the UK national book repository
(a legal requirement).
Et voila! We're a publisher. Selling the books is, of course, a separate
issue.
Over here, the only time you'd be looking for big bucks is if you wanted (a) a
massive publicity campaign or (b) a bribe to the Sunday Supplement Book
Reviewer.
Just my 0.02.
KD.
JWarrenZ
After two books published by Masquerade, I had my last book self published by
BookCrafters in Fredricksburg, VA. While they aren't unshockable, they had no
difficulty with Safe Sane Consensual and Fun.
Distribution is through mail order houses like QSM and some kink friendly
bookstores as well as distribution houses like Alamo Square. A collection of
erotic scenes intended to be duplicated by the reader, it is a bit too intense
for mainstream release, but it has been selling well and is now in its second
printing.
Dee-Ann
On Wed, 28 Jan 1998 01:59:24 -0800, in soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm you
wrote:
>A few months before his death, we in Eugene had the privilege of a
>bookstore evening with John Preston.
I wish more of "our" writers would do things like this (preferably
just visit, not visit then die, I hope that isn't inappropriate humor
there. :) I had the great fortune to hear in time of Guy Baldwin's
trip to Seattle and was able to attend some of his workshops/speaking
engagements.
The problem is, as Laura points out, that we are a niche market.
Harder to justify travel expenses, etc., if the sales aren't good
enough to cover them. I do feel that such engagements boost sales but
probably not enough to cover travel expenses, hotels, etc.
Dee-Ann
JWarrenZ
>The problem is, as Laura points out, that we are a niche market.
>Harder to justify travel expenses, etc., if the sales aren't good
>enough to cover them. I do feel that such engagements boost sales but
>probably not enough to cover travel expenses, hotels, etc.
Yup, let's take for example my recent booksigning in NYC, I drove down (a round
trip of 465 miles). A new friend put me up for the night and Masquerade paid
for an appetizer which served me for dinner. Thus, my total out of pocket
expenses assuming $.20 a mile which is a bit less than the niggerdly IRS allows
was $93. To recover this in royalties, my signing would have had to generate
233 sales. Since only about 50 attended, I tend to write it off as a loss.
This illustrates why I'd rather do lectures than booksignings. While I may
have tittlated the audience a bit with the reading that preceeded the signing,
a lecture on an interesting topic might have been able to provide them with
valuable information or to prevent one or more of them from making a
potentially harmful mistake in their play. For me, this would make the $93 an
investment in the scene rather than just red ink on the ledger.
T. Eckhart
On 31 Jan 1998 09:27:40 GMT, KingDiaper <kingd...@aol.com> wrote:
>In article <slrn6cs8lg....@sherrill.kiva.net>,
>teck...@sherrill.kiva.net (T. Eckhart) writes:
>
>> Well, in order to publisher you needs lots of capital up front.
>>So that would require someone or a group of someones with money and time
>>and skills. Don't look my way, I'm busy with grad school and not even
>>within sight of rich by any means.
>
>With respect, it's not necessarily true that you need a lot of money to become
>a publisher. Speaking only of my experience in the UK, "becoming a publisher"
>was as simple as applying to the authorities for a block of ISBNs (minimum 10)!
>
>
>The next step was to print the book (we did 1000 copies, 100 pages each - total
>cost about $1000), and making sure we complied with some minor legal nicities
>(like putting the ISBN on the cover and inside, and including a copyright
>notice).
From where I'm sitting, $1000 is one fifth of my entire school
year costs -- a very large sum of money for us.
Plus I think folks who write and have other jobs (the vast
majority of us) don't have time to do all that stuff -- publishing,
selling, administrative stuff.
Anthony Hilbert
Andrew Conway writes
>As an aside on historical slavery, the feudal system was never repealed
>in England, and so is presumably still the law of the land. The reason
>there are no serfs any more is that serfdom descends through the
>legitimate male line, and that eventually most serfs were able to get
>themselves legally declared bastards (often by a payment to the lord of
>the manor) and therefore be released from bondage.
I may be wrong, which is why I'm crossposting this to where someone may
know for sure, but it was my understanding that serfdom was formally
abolished in the 16th century in England (though it persisted longer on
the Continent, and right up to the 19th century in Russia).
It is true that its abolition was largely due to serfs having become too
rare to be worth the trouble, but this had more to do with the Black
Death than bastardy; the resulting shortage of manpower put the serfs in
a position to bargain for some minimal rights, including a better chance
at freedom. Attempts to make up their numbers by curtailing the rights
of freemen were among the causes of the Peasants' Revolts.
--
Anthony Hilbert
Anthony Hilbert
Nigel Campbell writes
<snip of excellent advice on the practical details of self-publishing>
>Even in a conservative town with a pop. of ~350k, I can think of a
>talented print-aware fetish artist, a kinky journalist, several
>printers that would print this without undue persuasion and yours
>truly.
Your country may vary. Our local bdsm magazine was almost bankrupted by
a couple of printers who reneged on their contracts on "moral" grounds.
I'm sure if the owner-editor could have found friendly producers he
would have.
But as you say, with the whole wide cyber-world to wander through one
ought to be able to find someone safe.
Axel
Anthony Hilbert (hil...@hilbert.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: Andrew Conway writes
: >As an aside on historical slavery, the feudal system was never repealed
: >in England, and so is presumably still the law of the land. The reason
: >there are no serfs any more is that serfdom descends through the
: >legitimate male line, and that eventually most serfs were able to get
: >themselves legally declared bastards (often by a payment to the lord of
: >the manor) and therefore be released from bondage.
: I may be wrong, which is why I'm crossposting this to where someone may
: know for sure, but it was my understanding that serfdom was formally
: abolished in the 16th century in England (though it persisted longer on
: the Continent, and right up to the 19th century in Russia).
Feudalism is rather more evident in Scotland where it remains important
in regard to land holding. Thus the 'owner' of a piece of land may have
to pay feu duties to a feudal superior (although it is now possible to
make a lump sum payment to eliminate such duties).
It should be remembered that feudalism is essentially a method of land
holding originally based on raising military forces. Serfdom in merely
incidental to this. In England serfdom was not uniform - there were many
local variations and serfs of different status.
Nigel Campbell
: Your country may vary. Our local bdsm magazine was almost bankrupted by
: a couple of printers who reneged on their contracts on "moral" grounds.
: I'm sure if the owner-editor could have found friendly producers he
: would have.
I don't think NZ would necessarily be any different to the U.K. or
anywhere else in that regard. With a book you've also got the problem
of finding a perv-friendly print finisher to bind the things as well.
I do know of one or two people who run presses out of their garage who
would take on the printing work. The money involved wouldn't be so
significant to a commercial printer but it would be quite a nice
dollop of pocket money for a private individual. Unfortunately, people
like that are quite hard to find unless you (for example) used to work
with them.
As I said, bindery becomes more of a problem with books. It's quite
specialised. You can use committee-stapling for magazines and the like
up to about 50 pages or so but a 100 or 200-page book really wants to
be glued on the spine. This is hard to do well and next to impossible
without the right equipment.
: But as you say, with the whole wide cyber-world to wander through one
: ought to be able to find someone safe.
You would still need to print it somewhere near your punters. While I
could probably get the thing printed here in NZ, it would still need
to be shipped 12,000 miles through two sets of H.M. customs to get it
back to the U.K. Doing the editorial and pre-press through an
international effort would be more practical. Heaps of computer-geek
books - particularly of the more technical variety - get done this
way.
[posted and mailed]
--
Nigel Campbell. nigel_at_tigger ch planet gen nz (Join the dots)
~
--
Nigel Campbell. nigel_at_tigger ch planet gen nz (Join the dots)
Andrew Conway
If memory serves me right, in article <62t6b6...@mesimarja.white-
eagle.co.uk>, Axel <ax...@dialup.white-eagle.co.uk> says...
> Anthony Hilbert (hil...@hilbert.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> : Andrew Conway writes
> : >As an aside on historical slavery, the feudal system was never repealed
> : >in England, and so is presumably still the law of the land. The reason
> : >there are no serfs any more is that serfdom descends through the
> : >legitimate male line, and that eventually most serfs were able to get
> : >themselves legally declared bastards (often by a payment to the lord of
> : >the manor) and therefore be released from bondage.
>
> : I may be wrong, which is why I'm crossposting this to where someone may
> : know for sure, but it was my understanding that serfdom was formally
> : abolished in the 16th century in England (though it persisted longer on
> : the Continent, and right up to the 19th century in Russia).
>
According to the 'History Today Companion to British History' edited by
Gardiner & Wenbourn, publishers Collins & Brown, London, 1995, page 684:
"Serfdom has never been abolished in Britain."
That book was also my source for the other information quoted in the
first paragraph above.
> [...]
> It should be remembered that feudalism is essentially a method of land
> holding originally based on raising military forces. Serfdom in merely
> incidental to this. [...]
Yes, although the term 'feudalism' is not very well defined. Again,
quoting thework referenced above:
"Another problem i s that so many different - and often contradictory -
definitions of feudalism have been offered (or, much worse, assumed) at
one time or another. In these circumstances, it is not surprising that
many historians would now like to abolish the word."
Andrew
Paul Crowley
lant...@aol.com (L Antoniou) writes:
> I think we really need to cherish writers a little more, whether they
> put their work in trashy looking paperbacks, glossy hard covers or on their web
> pages, or in their 'zines. Doesn't anyone find it odd that the leather
> community honors handsome men and dynamic women with stage presence, but
> doesn't have an established award for "best new fiction", or "best new
> non-fiction"? That you can be recognized as a "community leader" a "business
> person", or even a "couple" - but we don't recognize writers unless they also
> happen to be one of the above, or they are considered long-standing survivors
> of the community, ie.: "forbearers"?
Sound. In this country we're fortunate to have the "Best Erotic
Writer" award at the Erotic Oscars.
__
\/ o\ pa...@hedonism.demon.co.uk \ /
/\__/ Paul Crowley -+- DATA IS SACRED /~\
jcn
feudalism has no legal standing in england now. richard the second was
overthrown cos he believed in it, see the peasants revolt. ever since it
hasn't really existed. the english constitution is based in part on
unwritten assupmtions, freedoms that are enshrined because they have been
around for so long. it may not have been formally abolished but it
certainly ceased to exist by the time of the reformation.
if it is still around then i'm going to fuck every newly wed bride in the
village cos thanks to my birthright i am entitled to.... oh if only i were
born 600 years ago.
Andrew Conway <con...@juggling.org> wrote in article
<MPG.f40d47c4...@news.sirius.com>...