Finds from my Diary, 12-2-95
Dr. Demento
a guy from Stockton. In talking to the guy initially, we found out
he was a collector, and had a prototype of a game he could not
identify. He said he thought it was "Alligator People."
He arrived with two boxes of stuff, his wife, and 2-year-old
child named Barbara. Anyway, I went through the boxes and found a
few cartridges I needed. He also had a Bally Astrocade, an Atari
XE light gun, and a plethora of Sega Master System Games.
He looked through my cartridges for trade and didn't need
anything--he seemed quite biased against my Intellivision collection.
We decided $15 was fair for the four cartridges I had set aside.
They were:
------
Atari 2600 Crossbow |
Atari 2600 Super Cobra |
|--- $15(trade)
MPF MP1000 Boxing |
MPF MP1000 Bowling/Micro Match |
------
I was still broke, but my friend bought them for me. I
ended up trading him about 10 loose common Intellivision cartridges
for them.
At the end of our meeting, we decided to look at this game.
It was in a 20th Century Fox case(which I had incorrectly thought
was identical to an Activision case originally), but otherwise
nondescript. Inserting the cartridge, the playfield looked like a
forest. You were running around little passageways, avoiding these
green guys, some large, some small. You could fire at them, but
only in the direction you were moving, and only left-and-right.
The object seemed to move as far to the bottom of the
screen as you could, at which point the entire landscape would scroll
back again, in rainbow-mode, and you would get 1000 bonus points.
The guy who owned the cartridge said he had seen the 20th
Century Fox movie "Alligator People", and said that the main
character avoided these people while shooting arrows at them to
slow them down. This leads me to agree with him that this game
is the unreleased Alligator People.
I mentioned to him our group of people in the bay area who
got together every month(interesting I consider myself part of the
group, since I only attended one meeting out of about 6). He told
me he knew Larry Anderson, which was cool. I mentioned to him that
he would do the collecting community as a whole a good favor by
allowing us to make an EPROM copy of it.
This did not sit too well with him. He hummed and hoed over
it and said various people had suggested it to him. He seemed to
feel the value of the cartridge would go down if he let people
copy it, although he did not expressly say so. I tried to assure
him that a copy would allow us to run it on the Activision
emulator, and possibly distribute it on future 128-in-1 cartridges,
but he still felt it wasn't a good idea.
Still, when we played, I videotaped the game. Also, he
has a Quicktime movie of the game on his web page. To access
his Alligator People page, use the URL:
http://www.stocko.sonnet.com/Fujidom/Alligator.html
Unfortunately, it is in the Mac "stuffit" format with the .sit
extension. To make matters worse, even if you unstuff the file
under a Macintosh, its default tool is a text reader. Worse
still, it is still saved as Macbinary. Not good news for
users on any platform other than Macintosh.
At least he included two GIF shots of the game itself.
We videotaped the play, so if anybody wants copies of it, just
ask me via email, and I'll try to send a copy to you(I request
the cost of a blank videotape and shipping).
At 1pm, I was to meet his little brother to look through
his collection of 2600 cartridges he wanted to sell. After a few
minutes, I found 6 cartridges with 3 manuals and one Activision
catalog, and asked him how much he wanted. He said, "$.50 or
$1 each?" so I said, "$1 sounds good." The cartridges I got
from him were:
Atari 2600 Crystal Castles(with manual) $1
Atari 2600 Kung-Fu Master $1
Atari 2600 Midnight Magic $1
Atari 2600 Q*Bert(Atari version, with manual) $1
Atari 2600 Skate Boardin'(with manual) $1
Atari 2600 Snoopy and the Red Baron $1
---
$6
Some of those were pretty cool titles! So all in all, it only
cost $6 and 10 loose, common Intellivision cartridges! Needless to say,
I am very happy.
By the way, I would have posted this the very day I experienced
it, except my roommate refuses to give up the telephone for me to log
on. What time is it? 1:30am.
Tomorrow I will be going to the Roseville Auction(Denio's for
those who don't have a clue what I was talking about). Will I find
something good, or will I find crap? Only time will tell...
--
Check out my web page - http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~gchance/index.html -
The Classic Videogames Homepage! And coming soon, The History of Video Games
Homepage! Do you IRC? JOIN US...#classic wants *you*. We'll leave the light
on for ya. 211 2600 carts and counting...only 799 left! :)
Bruce Tomlin
> This did not sit too well with him. He hummed and hoed over
>it and said various people had suggested it to him. He seemed to
>feel the value of the cartridge would go down if he let people
>copy it, although he did not expressly say so. I tried to assure
You should have tried harder. Firstly, if he had the only one and didn't
want to sell it, what does it matter what it's worth? You should also
have told him that copies have NO collecting value, and that collectors
are looking for the actual cartridges themselves. To not allow it to be
copied is not only selfish, but since a prototype that rare is probably on
EPROM, it will eventually go bad, and it won't be worth anything then.
Need I say it? "Phillistine." What if one guy had the Mona Lisa hanging
in his basement, but was convinced that putting a photo of it in a
magazine would somehow make it worth less? And instead, he would only
let out a badly digitized closeup of the lips?
If anything, copies would bring more interest, and he might start to get
offers to buy it for ridiculous amounts of money in his mailbox. Again,
not that it matters if he's not going to sell it, of course.
CudaBert
gch...@ecst.csuchico.edu (Dr. Demento) gushed gleefully:
> This morning, my friend had it set to sell his PowerBook to
>a guy from Stockton. In talking to the guy initially, we found out
>he was a collector, and had a prototype of a game he could not
>identify. He said he thought it was "Alligator People."
Greg, is this the same guy who was asking about that prototype a couple
months ago? Just curious....I think it's sad that he wouldn't allow you to
copy the EPROM. Now it's just a matter of time until something happens to
it and it'll be lost forever!
Marlin Bates, IV
about it, eh?
First: This entire post from Mr. Chance was without my knowledge or
approval. He has since apologized. I do not trash people or post my
thought son how their deals go and I would expect the same.
Second: Why should I trade/sell copies of a game? Should the person who
has the Honus Wagner baseball card make copies of it simply becuase it is
rare? 'Philistine'? C'mon now this is rather ridiculous. From what you
are saying I should make copies of it and distribute them as freely as
water. Should the owners of CubiColor or Coke Wins or Chase the
Chuckwagon freely make copies of them and distribute them simply because
you want a copy? No? Then why should I be labelled otherwise?
My exact words to Mr. Chance were NOT that the 'price' would go down if I
made copies but that it would be less 'unique.' I have something that
probably no one else has. For the true collector this is the ultimate.
It would be like having the only Buffalo Nickel in the world. I have been
collecting for 8 years now and I have always tried to make good trades and
sell at decent prices when I have doubles. Now you guys come along and
want to embarass me into making you copies?
After my conversation with Mr. Chance, though, I was actually considering
making copies and trading them for some carts I did not have but then not
more than HOURS after the meeting I get this public flogging. No thanks.
Third: The last time I let some one make a copy of a cart I, and I alone,
had the person made a copy and then sold copies of his copy for $70 and he
continues to this day to do so. That is fine since the ground rules were
not specifically laid out and I was a little naive back then. Now you are
asking me to do the same thing again? rigggghhht.
I may never get a trade again but damnit I put a lot of hard work into
finding my carts and I think I have made a few good friends in doing so
but this really takes the cake and chaps my hide.
-Marlin
>
> In article <4a3cbo$k...@crl3.crl.com>, bto...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > Dr. Demento (gch...@ecst.csuchico.edu) wrote in rec.games.video.classic:
> > > This did not sit too well with him. He hummed and hoed over
> > >it and said various people had suggested it to him. He seemed to
> > >feel the value of the cartridge would go down if he let people
> > >copy it, although he did not expressly say so. I tried to assure
> >
> > You should have tried harder. Firstly, if he had the only one and didn't
> > want to sell it, what does it matter what it's worth? You should also
> > have told him that copies have NO collecting value, and that collectors
> > are looking for the actual cartridges themselves. To not allow it to be
> > copied is not only selfish, but since a prototype that rare is probably on
> > EPROM, it will eventually go bad, and it won't be worth anything then.
> >
> > Need I say it? "Phillistine." What if one guy had the Mona Lisa hanging
> > in his basement, but was convinced that putting a photo of it in a
> > magazine would somehow make it worth less? And instead, he would only
> > let out a badly digitized closeup of the lips?
> >
> > If anything, copies would bring more interest, and he might start to get
> > offers to buy it for ridiculous amounts of money in his mailbox. Again,
> > not that it matters if he's not going to sell it, of course.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---*** All hail the Fuji! PLUG IN THE WIRE! http://www.atari.com
> ---*** Marlin Bates / Canon Color / Taylor Made Office Systems
> ---*** 2600: 420 / 7800: 56 / XL/XE: 169 / Lynx: 74 / Jaguar: 31
> --*-*-* Duo: 158 / TI: 142 / SMS: 35 / Genesis: 30/ MicroVisn: ALL
> -*--*--* For my current list of Classic Home Video Games I own and
> *---*---* trade check out: http://www.stocko.sonnet.com/Fujidom/
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
---*** All hail the Fuji! PLUG IN THE WIRE! http://www.atari.com
---*** Marlin Bates / Canon Color / Taylor Made Office Systems
---*** 2600: 420 / 7800: 56 / XL/XE: 169 / Lynx: 74 / Jaguar: 31
--*-*-* Duo: 158 / TI: 142 / SMS: 35 / Genesis: 30/ MicroVisn: ALL
-*--*--* For my current list of Classic Home Video Games I own and
*---*---* trade check out: http://www.stocko.sonnet.com/Fujidom/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
6500...@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu
>You should have tried harder. Firstly, if he had the only one and didn't
>want to sell it, what does it matter what it's worth? You should also
>have told him that copies have NO collecting value, and that collectors
>are looking for the actual cartridges themselves. To not allow it to be
>copied is not only selfish, but since a prototype that rare is probably on
>EPROM, it will eventually go bad, and it won't be worth anything then.
This seems out of line to me. It is his business what he does with that
cartridge, and no one else's. And it is especially his business if he
decides to wait and eventually make copies himself, or hold on to it for
the meantime. The presumption here borders on arrogance. Have you
spoken to Marlin Bates about this cartridge yourself? Or are you relying
on second-hand information that Dr. Demento posted to the USENET without
consulting with Bates first? Dr. Demento's subsequent apology speaks
volumes about this matter.
>Need I say it? "Phillistine." What if one guy had the Mona Lisa hanging
>in his basement, but was convinced that putting a photo of it in a
>magazine would somehow make it worth less? And instead, he would only
>let out a badly digitized closeup of the lips?
First of all, Alligator People is NOT the Mona Lisa. Let's put this in
context before we start calling people philistines. Second, it seems to
me that it is entirely up to Bates to decide what to do with his
cartridge. Your name-calling here sounds more like sour grapes than a
reasoned response.
Marlin Bates showed his cartridge to Dr. Demento with nothing other than
best intentions, and because he did not immediately turn the cartridge
over to the proper authorities for copying, he gets torched on the
USENET as a "philistine"? It seems to me that I would think twice about
showing Dr. Demento or Mr. Tomlin any unusual cartridges I find.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------
6500...@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu David Tipton
Bruce Tomlin
>newsgroup or just keep you damned mouth shut. Mr. Tomlin, I
>seriously doubt you'd be offering copies of rare prototypes to
>the general public so why the hell should this guy give you one
>of his? Maybe if everyone threatened not to trade with you or
If I had anything that rare, you damn bet I would make sure others had a
copy of it. I would probably even upload the uuencoded binary to rgvc
after finding it. Have you ever heard of the Hacker Ethic? "Information
should be free." Greg understands it or he wouldn't maintain his
instructions archive, and I hope he's every damn bit as proud of it as he
deserves to be.
I don't really care if I ever get to see Alligator People, as long as
there is a copy or three somewhere on a less fragile medium. It's called
a "backup".
And my analogy was wrong. It's not like the Mona Lisa. It's like an old
film from the '20s on nitrite film stock sitting in a can in someone's
basement. Only we don't have rich Hollywood stars to make a case for
rescuing them onto safety film. Someone wrote that game to be played, not
to be hidden away in some dragon's nest. Someday it'll be a can full of
dust, except that the loss of even one bit can ruin it. (And that applies
to Orange Ranger and those 2600 and 5200 Tempest prototypes I've heard
exist out there, too.)
>of his? Maybe if everyone threatened not to trade with you or
>to come down to San Antonio and buy everything out you'd change
>your tune, I don't know. This is a freaking hobby, and it's
This proves that you're clueless if you think it's possible to "buy out"
a town. And this may be a hobby, but writing games is a freaking art.
Can =you= do it?
>childhood. I'm not in this for the freaking money and neither
>are most of the people. Hell, if you had the damn cart you'd
>be pushing copies on here for $75 a piece in a heartbeat.
Now =that= demands an apology. Where did I =ever= mention charging money
for copies of a prototype? In fact, I even said that copies are worth
nothing in collector value.
Why don't =you= stop being so pompous as to presume what someone else
would do?
be...@netcom.com
>Well, nothing like your name being publicly trashed without you knowing
>about it, eh?
>
>First: This entire post from Mr. Chance was without my knowledge or
>approval. He has since apologized.
>
>making copies and trading them for some carts I did not have but then not
>more than HOURS after the meeting I get this public flogging. No thanks.
>
Nobody here blames you a bit for feeling like you do Mr. Bates.
And I for one am sick and tired of pompous asses like Mr.
Tomlin spouting off like this. It's hoarding selfish jerks
like him that give this hobby a bad name. And it's not the
first time he's shot his mouth off like this either. Why don't
you just do us all a favor and either get the hell off of this
newsgroup or just keep you damned mouth shut. Mr. Tomlin, I
seriously doubt you'd be offering copies of rare prototypes to
the general public so why the hell should this guy give you one
of his? Maybe if everyone threatened not to trade with you or
to come down to San Antonio and buy everything out you'd change
your tune, I don't know. This is a freaking hobby, and it's
something fun, something that brings back good memories of my
childhood. I'm not in this for the freaking money and neither
are most of the people. Hell, if you had the damn cart you'd
be pushing copies on here for $75 a piece in a heartbeat.
Selfish, so selfish, me, me, me....
Christopher Daniello
>My exact words to Mr. Chance were NOT that the 'price' would go down if I
>made copies but that it would be less 'unique.' I have something that
>probably no one else has. For the true collector this is the ultimate.
>It would be like having the only Buffalo Nickel in the world. I have been
>collecting for 8 years now and I have always tried to make good trades and
>sell at decent prices when I have doubles. Now you guys come along and
>want to embarass me into making you copies?
>
>After my conversation with Mr. Chance, though, I was actually considering
>making copies and trading them for some carts I did not have but then not
>more than HOURS after the meeting I get this public flogging. No thanks.
If the prototype is on such an unstable medium as the other
posts have suggested, you should probably make yourself a
copy at least.
It would be nice if the game was documented on the lists,
Digital Press guide, etc... too.
William Ruffin Bailey
:
: Well, at least dump the EPROM to a file on disk, even if you never give a
: copy to anyone! That way if something does happen to it, the thing won't
: be lost forever.
Bingo! Exactly. Have to say, putting the image on the net _is_ a little
excessive, ane _would_ bring down the value. Or, rather, eliminate his
potential to sell copies of it, like he says in his post.
:
: Or, send it to the Cartridge Conservatory! :-) We'll take good care of it.
What is this Cart Conservatory? Should I send my Pac-Man collection
there when I die? I mean, if there's anything that should be kept in
good condition for later generations... ;)
Ruffin Bailey
wrba...@unity.ncsu.edu
--
CudaBert
mba...@s3.sonnet.com (Marlin Bates, IV) writes:
> C'mon now this is rather ridiculous. From what you
>are saying I should make copies of it and distribute them as freely as
>water.
Well, at least dump the EPROM to a file on disk, even if you never give a
copy to anyone! That way if something does happen to it, the thing won't
be lost forever.
Or, send it to the Cartridge Conservatory! :-) We'll take good care of it.
Bruce Tomlin
>Marlin Bates showed his cartridge to Dr. Demento with nothing other than
>best intentions, and because he did not immediately turn the cartridge
>over to the proper authorities for copying, he gets torched on the
FYI, If he had actually used the words "Marlin Bates" in his message, in a
context where I could figure out what he was apologizing for, I would
have cancelled my own message. However, his apology made a reference
that I couldn't figure out, since the person's name was never mentioned
in the original message. So I couldn't figure out what he wasn't
supposed to talk about in the first place.
I shall cancel it now. Happy?
Bruce Tomlin
>I shall cancel it now. Happy?
And by the way, consider this an apology. Again, I had no way to know
exactly what Greg was apoligizing for, because he only refered to the
person's name, when it wasn't in the original message.
My reply went out before his apology came in, but I would have cancelled
it if I had known. I did in fact scrutinize his message after seeing his
apology, but since I was unable to add x + 2 and get 4, I took no action.
I guess this was kind of a hot button for me after the Orange Ranger affair.
Matt Pritchard
: I do agree calling someone Philistine is harsh. I don't resort to calling
: people names, I don't expect others to do the same.
I have a fairly good understanding of Mr Tomlin, and it looks like other
are taking him more seriously than he takes himself. I'm _Sure_ there
was some tounge-in-cheek in there.
: Let this thread die! PLEASE.
Oops!
--
-Matt P
_______________________________________________________________________________
Matt Pritchard | Antique Computer & Game System Collector
matt...@netcom.com | Assembly Language Programming Guru
via Dallas, Tx dialup | Article Writer/Repressed Game Programmer
Dr. Demento
>In article <4a3cbo$k...@crl3.crl.com> bto...@crl.com (Bruce Tomlin) writes:
>
>This seems out of line to me. It is his business what he does with that
>cartridge, and no one else's. And it is especially his business if he
>decides to wait and eventually make copies himself, or hold on to it for
>the meantime. The presumption here borders on arrogance. Have you
>spoken to Marlin Bates about this cartridge yourself? Or are you relying
>on second-hand information that Dr. Demento posted to the USENET without
>consulting with Bates first? Dr. Demento's subsequent apology speaks
>volumes about this matter.
>
feelings on the matter. It has to do with trying to calm the feelings of
Mr. Bates, which I still can't figure out. I do enjoy having every message
that appears on the newgroup in response to this thread being forwarded to
me in email, though.
>First of all, Alligator People is NOT the Mona Lisa. Let's put this in
>context before we start calling people philistines. Second, it seems to
>me that it is entirely up to Bates to decide what to do with his
>cartridge. Your name-calling here sounds more like sour grapes than a
>reasoned response.
>
I do agree calling someone Philistine is harsh. I don't resort to calling
people names, I don't expect others to do the same.
>Marlin Bates showed his cartridge to Dr. Demento with nothing other than
>best intentions, and because he did not immediately turn the cartridge
>over to the proper authorities for copying, he gets torched on the
>USENET as a "philistine"? It seems to me that I would think twice about
>showing Dr. Demento or Mr. Tomlin any unusual cartridges I find.
>
If that's how you feel. But as I stated before, we never made an agreement
for me to not discuss it with anyone else; in fact, we finished our meeting
with "ok see you on the net" or something to that effect. If he had stated
not to talk about it I wouldn't have. But just the simple fact that not only
are pictures of the game on the net, but his EMAIL ADDRESS IS ON THE WEB
PAGE, means that he didn't mind having his name mentioned. Which is simply
what I did--I MENTIONED his name in the context of "does not want to give
out copies". I could do this with several things, including Tempest,
except for the fact that I was specifically requested NOT to mention
that person's name, and I have not done so.
Incidentally, when I found Chase the Chuck Wagon I was asked for EPROM
copies...I did not give it out, not because I didn't want to, but because
I didn't want to let the cartridge out of my hands. Someone who lives
across the United States wanted me to ship it to them so they could
copy it, then ship it back. That is the only reason I would have denied
the reqeust; if he lived closeby I would have brought the cartridge with
me and made the copy.
Let this thread die! PLEASE.
--
Bruce Tomlin
>Third: The last time I let some one make a copy of a cart I, and I alone,
>had the person made a copy and then sold copies of his copy for $70 and he
>continues to this day to do so. That is fine since the ground rules were
>not specifically laid out and I was a little naive back then. Now you are
>asking me to do the same thing again? rigggghhht.
I was rereading your message and was there a missing "he" where I put the
mark? If you really don't like someone selling copy carts for $70 (which
IMHO is a ripoff), then get someone else to read your cart and post the
binary on the newsgroup where anyone with a little skill can run it on an
Activision emulator. That should put a stop to such nonsense real quick.
Copy carts are only worth parts and labor. In fact, to sell them for more
than that is a copyright violation and technically illegal. (This doesn't
apply to original code, including multi-cart menus, of course.)
But I haven't heard anything about this before, so obviously he's not
trying all that hard to sell them. Also, FYI, I think that the "Pancho"
who tried to sell Orange Ranger copies was NOT the same person as the
"Pancho" who bought the cart in the first place, but was just some
shithead flamebaiter.
Bruce Tomlin
>copies...I did not give it out, not because I didn't want to, but because
>I didn't want to let the cartridge out of my hands. Someone who lives
I personally wouldn't trust anyone but Sean Kelly. Besides, if someone
wants an EPROM copy of a game that's not one-of-a-kind, he's probably
already got a dump of it. I know I got mine off of an early multicart of
his that someone brought to my place. It was a real pain to flip all
those DIP switches to read all the games!
>across the United States wanted me to ship it to them so they could
>copy it, then ship it back. That is the only reason I would have denied
>the reqeust; if he lived closeby I would have brought the cartridge with
>me and made the copy.
Which is why having portable cart-sucking equipment is majorly cool.
I've already done it over at Matt Pritchard's place, unfortunately the
results of that are on a now-dead hard drive. :(
Chris Pepin
On Wed, 6 Dec 1995 mba...@s3.sonnet.com wrote:
> My exact words to Mr. Chance were NOT that the 'price' would go down if I
> made copies but that it would be less 'unique.' I have something that
> probably no one else has. For the true collector this is the ultimate.
> It would be like having the only Buffalo Nickel in the world. I have been
> collecting for 8 years now and I have always tried to make good trades and
> sell at decent prices when I have doubles. Now you guys come along and
> want to embarass me into making you copies?
Well, if you don't want to make copies of the game for other
people, then that's your choice. But you could at least make a few
copies of the game and keep them yourself. That way if the chips do
go bad in the original you have a back-up. I (and many others) would
hate to see such a rare game be lost.
Kevin M. Hebert
Marlin Bates, IV <mba...@s3.sonnet.com> wrote:
>Well, nothing like your name being publicly trashed without you knowing
>about it, eh?
Happens to me all the time, I'm sure.
>Second: Why should I trade/sell copies of a game? Should the person who
>has the Honus Wagner baseball card make copies of it simply becuase it is
>rare? 'Philistine'? C'mon now this is rather ridiculous. From what you
>are saying I should make copies of it and distribute them as freely as
>water. Should the owners of CubiColor or Coke Wins or Chase the
>Chuckwagon freely make copies of them and distribute them simply because
>you want a copy? No? Then why should I be labelled otherwise?
Yes, yes, yes. Or, if someone who can be trusted offers to make copies,
then yes, yes, yes. Abso-lute-ly.
>My exact words to Mr. Chance were NOT that the 'price' would go down if I
>made copies but that it would be less 'unique.' I have something that
>probably no one else has. For the true collector this is the ultimate.
>It would be like having the only Buffalo Nickel in the world. I have been
>collecting for 8 years now and I have always tried to make good trades and
>sell at decent prices when I have doubles. Now you guys come along and
>want to embarass me into making you copies?
Don't feel bad. It's what should be expected: you're hoarding something
that no one else can have. It's software. The cartridge itself is one of
a kind. Nothing, ever, will change that. But, to make copies of it so others
can play, and somehow fill the hole in their collection the only way they
can, well, why not?
>After my conversation with Mr. Chance, though, I was actually considering
>making copies and trading them for some carts I did not have but then not
>more than HOURS after the meeting I get this public flogging. No thanks.
Why not? I admit, it is a little harsh and unprovoked. But, you could probably
get a bunch of games you didn't have, just by making copies of the little
Alligator People. It's an all-win situatin for you.
>Third: The last time I let some one make a copy of a cart I, and I alone,
>had the person made a copy and then sold copies of his copy for $70 and he
>continues to this day to do so. That is fine since the ground rules were
>not specifically laid out and I was a little naive back then. Now you are
>asking me to do the same thing again? rigggghhht.
This is fair to say. I agree with you on this. I remember this myself.
But, what can you do? Again, it doesn't really diminish the value of
your cartridge, any more than a million reprints of Action #1 make
the first appearance of Superman any less valuable.
But, we won't be bitter (or, I should say, I won't be). It's your game,
it's your decision. But, I have to say, making copies can only help you.
It can't really hurt you.
-- KMH
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Kevin M. Hebert kmhe...@seas.gwu.edu http://www.seas.gwu.edu/student/kmhebert
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
6500...@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu
>My subsequent apology has nothing to do with how I felt, or a change in
>feelings on the matter. It has to do with trying to calm the feelings of
>Mr. Bates, which I still can't figure out. I do enjoy having every message
>that appears on the newgroup in response to this thread being forwarded to
>me in email, though.
Regarding calming the feelings of Mr. Bates: what I think you are not
getting is that the message you posted was (and perhaps you did not fully
realize this) most definitely critical of him. You may not have come
right out and said it, but the implication was definitely that you thought
the lesser of him because he did not immediately agree to allow it to be
copied. That was certainly the sense that I read into it, and Bates seems
to have interpreted it that way as well. Perhaps this will make it
easier to see why he was unhappy. And when Mr. Tomlin came along and
drew the conclusion which you were suggesting, well, by then the writing
was on the wall (or USENET, as it were) and Bates, who had simply shown
his cartridge to someone and said he wasn't willing to make copies at
this time, was being portrayed as "the bad guy."
>>Marlin Bates showed his cartridge to Dr. Demento with nothing other than
>>best intentions, and because he did not immediately turn the cartridge
>>over to the proper authorities for copying, he gets torched on the
>>USENET as a "philistine"? It seems to me that I would think twice about
>>showing Dr. Demento or Mr. Tomlin any unusual cartridges I find.
>If that's how you feel. But as I stated before, we never made an agreement
>for me to not discuss it with anyone else; in fact, we finished our meeting
>with "ok see you on the net" or something to that effect. If he had stated
>not to talk about it I wouldn't have. But just the simple fact that not only
>are pictures of the game on the net, but his EMAIL ADDRESS IS ON THE WEB
>PAGE, means that he didn't mind having his name mentioned. Which is simply
>what I did--I MENTIONED his name in the context of "does not want to give
>out copies". I could do this with several things, including Tempest,
>except for the fact that I was specifically requested NOT to mention
>that person's name, and I have not done so.
It would seem to me a good policy NOT to post messages about other
people's collections without getting their permission first. I'm not sure
I would be happy if I showed something to a guest or visitor and that
person then posted about what I have to the Internet.
More to the point: I don't think Bates was irritated that you mentioned
that he had the game (he freely has posted about it in the past and has a
picture of it on his web page) but that you portrayed him in a less than
flattering light. The implication in your diary post to me seemed
critical of Bates.
>Incidentally, when I found Chase the Chuck Wagon I was asked for EPROM
>copies...I did not give it out, not because I didn't want to, but because
>I didn't want to let the cartridge out of my hands. Someone who lives
>across the United States wanted me to ship it to them so they could
>copy it, then ship it back. That is the only reason I would have denied
>the reqeust; if he lived closeby I would have brought the cartridge with
>me and made the copy.
Is this really so different from Bates' reasons? His seem equally valid
to me.
>Let this thread die! PLEASE.
I agree. I think this has been blown out of proportion.
Mr. Tomlin graciously apologized (and I in fact understand his response
quite clearly in the context of the Orange Ranger disaster a while back.)
Regarding the Orange Ranger affair: if memory serves, it was supposedly
an M Network cartridge, and there were some who were more or less
convinced that the whole thing may have been a hoax. Has anyone ever
contected the Blue Sky Rangers (who developed the Mattel games) to see if
Orange Ranger was a genuine cartridge in development?
Ken Arromdee
>Copy carts are only worth parts and labor. In fact, to sell them for more
>than that is a copyright violation and technically illegal. (This doesn't
>apply to original code, including multi-cart menus, of course.)
Selling copies only for parts and labor is equally illegal. In fact, giving
them away is likewise illegal.
Whether it is illegal to give away or sell a copy doesn't depend on how much
money you make, or whether you're making money at all.
--
Ken Arromdee (arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, karr...@nyx.cs.du.edu;
http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~arromdee)
"Any creature who would disguise itself as a bone, obviously has no sense of
fair play!" -- Superboy Annual #1
Bruce Tomlin
>EPROMs usually hold their data without error for 10-15 years. After that,
>you'll start to see single-bit errors, then hundreds of single-bit
>errors. There's no way to prevent it; it's the way EPROMs are designed.
>The point where you see single-bit errors then hundreds of failures
>ususally is about 4-8 months.
You know what I think is a disturbing trend? I opened up the Genesis Pro
Action Replay code cart that I got for four bucks at a thrift store
recently. It had three surface-mount chips on the board. One was the
gate array, of course. The other two were windowless, surface-mount
27C256 EPROM chips.
Guess, what, guys? People are using windowless EPROMs as a cheap solution
to the cost of a run of mask-programmed chips. I've seen 'em used a few
times as BIOS chips on PC's, but those are socketed full-size chips. I've
even seen 'em in USR modems (the Sportster and the later Couriers use the
quad flat-pack chips, but those are socketed, too).
But unsocketed, surface-mount EPROM chips? So it goes.* At least the
Pro Action Replay isn't a one-of-a-kind prototype, so I'm sure some kid
with the right equipment already has it sucked into an image file on his
hard drive.
*This is a Kurt Vonnegut reference. Read Breakfast of Champions to see
what I mean.
Kevin Horton
-> Kevin Horton (kho...@tech.iupui.edu) wrote in rec.games.video.classic:
[my EPROM message, deleted]
-> You know what I think is a disturbing trend? I opened up the Genesis Pro
-> Action Replay code cart that I got for four bucks at a thrift store
-> recently. It had three surface-mount chips on the board. One was the
-> gate array, of course. The other two were windowless, surface-mount
-> 27C256 EPROM chips.
-> Guess, what, guys? People are using windowless EPROMs as a cheap solution
-> to the cost of a run of mask-programmed chips. I've seen 'em used a few
-> times as BIOS chips on PC's, but those are socketed full-size chips. I've
-> even seen 'em in USR modems (the Sportster and the later Couriers use the
-> quad flat-pack chips, but those are socketed, too).
Fortunately, most mass-produced devices still use ROMs. I saw that EPROM
in my Sportster as well. (Hey, I like to look into all my electronic
devices. :-) The point where you get into EPROMs is in lower produced
devices, or where frequent changes occur. i.e. the Sportster's programming
is updated frequently, so they didn't want to commit to a large number of
chips. either that, or time-to-market was a big concern. EPROMs are
ready after you program them. Masked-programmed ROMs take a month or more
before you get units. That month can mean the diffrence between a breakthrough
product and a secondary product.
-> But unsocketed, surface-mount EPROM chips? So it goes.* At least the
That socket costs $.40. Personally, I would rather have that extra dollar
added onto the cost of my cart. But, that's the way industry works, I
guess.
(PS: Yes, all the products I develop use sockets if at all possible! :-)
--
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