Amish

JMorngstar

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Nov 22, 2002, 1:56:15 PM11/22/02

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Did anyone happen to catch Oprah yesterday about the Amish and rumspringa.
This is something that I have never heard of before and was very interesting.
For those likewise uninformed. Amish do not believe in baptising children. At
the age of 16 Amish children are allowed to "run free" for a period of one day
to 1+ year. They are allowed to smoke, drink, sleep with their boyfriends,
either at home in their community or in an apartment away from the watchful eye
of the community. In the community a blind eye is turned to these goings on and
are an accepted part. They are allowed to wear American clothing, listen to
music, etc. It was totally fascinating.

The deal is that after this sabatical, however long it is (varies by different
Amish communities) the children decide if they want to be baptised and become
Amish. They are not Amish until that point.

If you saw some of the things these kids did on their rumsringa, you would
think regular American teenagers were saints.

Janice

Susan Mitchell

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Nov 22, 2002, 2:22:23 PM11/22/02

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I saw that and was likewise shocked! Interesting concept by the Amish!!

--
Sue -- UW Mom -- Rabid Dawg Fan!
(to reply send to medla...@attbi.com)
"JMorngstar" <jmorn...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
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RaeMorrill

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Nov 22, 2002, 2:33:27 PM11/22/02

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Never heard that before. Interesting, indeed.

Rae Morrill in Maine
"Ya can't get theyuh from heeah"
_______________________________
Spam mailers WILL be reported to their respective postmasters and AOL TOSSPAM!

CyberCafe

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Nov 22, 2002, 3:11:31 PM11/22/02

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JMorngstar wrote:

We live in a community with many Amish families (our neighbors across the road are
Amish), and we've never seen or heard of the Amish kids doing this rumsringa
thing. Maybe they just keep it quiet or something. Around here, there is no place
for them to misbehave anyway.

Barb

>
>
> Janice

Jay Vance

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Nov 22, 2002, 3:27:58 PM11/22/02

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> The deal is that after this sabatical, however long it is (varies by
different
> Amish communities) the children decide if they want to be baptised and
become
> Amish. They are not Amish until that point.

While I may not be comfortable with some of the things that might happen
during this period, in principle I think it's a very valid idea. People
should do what they do because they believe it for themselves and choose to
live a certain way. It's very tempting for parents to want to scare or
bully or brainwash their kids into following in the family traditions, but
the fact of the matter is that sooner or later they're going to get a taste
of "the world" anyway. I think it makes a lot more sense to give kids a
certain amount of freedom to experience life (within reason) and expose them
to different ways of thinking so that when they do get out on their own
they're equipped to make good choices. Right now of the two teenagers we
still have at home, one will go to church with us while the other one isn't
sure he believes there is a God. We're not forcing anything on either one
of them at this age (15 and 16). That's not to say that when they were
younger we didn't make them do things regardless of their own inclinations,
but at some point they have to decide for themselves. If we haven't lived
what we profess to believe in front of them, then I wouldn't blame them for
not wanting to follow in our footsteps. I've never understood parents who
use the "Do as I say, not as I do" philosophy of child-rearing.

Jay

JMorngstar

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Nov 22, 2002, 3:34:11 PM11/22/02

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>
>We live in a community with many Amish families (our neighbors across the
>road are
>Amish), and we've never seen or heard of the Amish kids doing this rumsringa

Barb,

Keeping it quiet was some of the things that they touched on. You couldn't
necessarily know that this is going on. There was one party where they quit
counting at 1500 Amish boys and girls smoking and drinking. Seeing the girls
with their white bonnets and long dresses with a cigarette hanging out of their
mouths was almost unbelievable. Also showed several girls in bikinis.

I sure wish that this documentary would make it to KCET or main stream TV.
Going to Oprah's site is well worth if it you want to see more of what was
said.

The end result was that no matter what these kids so, that a high percentage
(like 85-95%) return and get baptized. I do not remember exactly but I
couldn't wait to hear the answer. The director went on to say that even more
kids are returning in the 2000s than they did in the 1970s.

It was truly fascinating and something I may have to do some reading on.

Janice

JMorngstar

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Nov 22, 2002, 3:51:10 PM11/22/02

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www.reporterinteractive.org/news/052202/tv052202.htm

This is the site if you are interested in reading more about this docummentary.

Janice

MizGriz

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Nov 22, 2002, 5:20:21 PM11/22/02

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Living among the Amish neighborhoods, I can attest that the kids are often
wild, rude, unruly, disrespectful, and just as much a horror as any
"regular" religion person would be. There is rampant drug use among many of
the communities in my area. Fewer and fewer young people are choosing to
"become" Amish and instead continuing in a life of debauchery. Whether this
is because they were sheltered or not for so long, I don't know. I know
that some of the things I've seen, and many that I've heard, are as far from
any "religious" experience as one can get.

--
Bambi Geist
_____________
Let us never be fearful of life's passages, for change is a remarkable gift
filled with hidden surprises.

Check out the best band you never heard of, Grey Eye Glances, at
www.greyeyeglances.com

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MizGriz

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Nov 22, 2002, 5:25:07 PM11/22/02

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Barb, pay close attention around October of each year and then early spring.
We actually have Amish "gangs" around here, no kidding. I live in a very
rural area. You'd think there was nothing to do here either, but there are
some pretty wild parties going on in some corn fields not too far off...I
kid you not. I became aware of this "ritual" about 12 years ago when I was
awakened at 2 a.m. by noisy Amish teens overcrowding several buggies.... and
then saw evidence of the property damage they'd been inflicting.

--
Bambi Geist
_____________
Let us never be fearful of life's passages, for change is a remarkable gift
filled with hidden surprises.

Check out the best band you never heard of, Grey Eye Glances, at
www.greyeyeglances.com

"CyberCafe" <pk...@badger.tds.net> wrote in message
news:3DDE8F78...@badger.tds.net...

Jay Vance

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Nov 22, 2002, 5:28:25 PM11/22/02

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> The end result was that no matter what these kids so, that a high
percentage
> (like 85-95%) return and get baptized. I do not remember exactly but I
> couldn't wait to hear the answer. The director went on to say that even
more
> kids are returning in the 2000s than they did in the 1970s.

The story at the link you posted says 90%, which is phenomenal.

Something else that struck me is that this puts a little different
perspective on the practice of "shunning" that the Amish and Mennonites
practice, with people who are baptized but then "leave the fold". To most
people that sounds really harsh, but you have to stop and think that every
single one of these people have had a chance to experience the "other world"
with all its allures, and still made the decision to commit to their
religion. To me that makes sense. The idea is to preserve the integrity of
their religion and way of life, which is certainly a valid goal, but at the
same time they're giving each person an opportunity to make sure it's THEIR
decision, after weighing all the pros and cons. You can't ask for anything
more fair than that. That makes more sense to me than some of the
fundamentalist religons that I'm familiar with that never allow their
children to have contact with the outside world, but then when they ARE
exposed to it as adults and choose the taste some of the "forbidden fruit",
the religious leaders go berserk and condemn them to hellfire.

Very thought-provoking....

Jay

RaeMorrill

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Nov 23, 2002, 12:30:54 AM11/23/02

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Right now of the two teenagers we
still have at home, one will go to church with us while the other one isn't
sure he believes there is a God. We're not forcing anything on either one
of them at this age (15 and 16). That's not to say that when they were>>

One day at probably over 18 I decided firmly I was NOT going to church this
week. I was shocked when I wasn't forced. Very rarely went back after that, and
usually only for occasions mandated by other occasions.

I hated going to church.

RaeMorrill

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Nov 23, 2002, 12:32:07 AM11/23/02

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Whether this
is because they were sheltered or not for so long, I don't know. I know>

Basic laws of physics so to speak. For every action there is an equal and
opposite reaction. FORCE kids to go to church, blah blah, and when they have
the choice the rubberband breaks.

Susan Mitchell

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Nov 23, 2002, 1:29:52 AM11/23/02

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I have to say that is when I started hating church when I was forced to go.
Also my piece '0 crap baby sister was "so good" and went to all the bible
studies and church and choir, and was the town pump!!! Pregnant at 17, oh,
and an abortion!! My mother still says she wants her sweet Kim back. I
finally told her her sweet Kim was a liar and a damn good actress but was
never sweet Kim!!

--
Sue -- UW Mom -- Rabid Dawg Fan!
(to reply send to medla...@attbi.com)

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Becky Young

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Nov 23, 2002, 9:01:49 AM11/23/02

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In article <20021123003054...@mb-fd.aol.com>,
raemo...@aol.com.com (RaeMorrill) writes:

>
>One day at probably over 18 I decided firmly I was NOT going to church this
>week. I was shocked when I wasn't forced. Very rarely went back after that,
>and
>usually only for occasions mandated by other occasions.
>
>I hated going to church.
>

I hated to go to church too, and I *was* forced. There I was, leader of my
youth group, into everything they had going, all because I was forced to be
there. What a hypocrite!

Now I love going. I love Bible study and I love the fellowship. Our church is
almost all elderly people, and only about a dozen little kids. I like the old
people a lot,and these are the same people who used to be the young parents.
We joined this church in 1962, when that area of town was teeming with young
families. Over the years, those housing developments shifted to rent houses
and the neighborhoods are a little bit bad. The only ones left are the people
who still live there, or people like me and my mom and dad, who drive from
other areas to attend there.

I'm hardly the poster child for Methodism, but I do like church.

Becky Young

....Though nothing can bring back the hour of splendour in the grass, of glory
in the flower, We will grieve not; rather find strength in what remains behind
-- William Wordsworth

Margie Kahn

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Nov 23, 2002, 12:38:25 PM11/23/02

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Nov 24, 2002, 2:01:47 PM11/24/02

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>Which faiths don't allow fun?

Well, for instance, some Baptists frown on drinking, smoking, dancing, movies
or popular music. Some people would feel without those things they would have
trouble having fun.

I see it from both sides; smoking is bad for everybody, and shouldn't be
encouraged. However, telling young people not to do it may only encourage it.
Some of the same Baptists who claim to be against drinking are alcoholics.
They have been taught that drinking is wrong, but somehow fell into the trap of
alcoholism anyway. To label all dancing as wrong is rather shocking to me, but
maybe because I wasn't brought up to think that. My husband and his sisters
went to some very strict Baptist schools. They signed papers promising not to
do all of these evil things. Then they would get together with their friends
and plan which "evil" movie they would see. That's as far as DH's sisters
needed to go to feel they were rebelling (the goal of most teenagers). So I
have mixed feelings about it. Telling them not to do it and having them
promise didn't stop them from doing it, but then again, the rebelling they did
was much more innocent than teenagers who have to go further to rebel.

Laura of NC
If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.
-Catherine Aird-

Woodfordbc

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Nov 24, 2002, 2:36:04 PM11/24/02

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I was raised Catholic, but after a long absence from going to church I've been
attending a Methodist church because my personal feelings and beliefs are a
better match here than with Catholicism. I have to admit I find the Methodist
services kinda boring, though, and really miss the ritual and the music of the
Catholic mass. I always joke that WASP music stinks. <G> Becky Y., I know you
love your hymns, though. I guess it's all in what's familiar to us, huh?

In article <3DE11AF7...@toltbbs.com>, Phyllis Nilsson <wc...@toltbbs.com>
writes:

>Which faiths don't allow fun?
>
>RaeMorrill wrote:

>>
>> At least Catholics are allowed to have some fun.

Becky in Maine

Robins Mom

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Nov 24, 2002, 3:04:01 PM11/24/02

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RE; What religions don't allow fun?

I think the Seventh Day Adventists frown on almost everything.

Susan>

CyberCafe

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Nov 24, 2002, 3:15:07 PM11/24/02

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Jay Vance wrote:

There have been a couple of shunning incidents that I can think of, and there
was even one desertion where an Amish man abandoned is wife and children and
just took off. We also have Mennonites around here, but it is hard to tell the
difference between them and the "English" since they drive, have phones, use
electricity, etc. The last Mennonite I talked with really wasn't gung-ho for
the Amish. This conversation took place shortly after three little Amish girls
(2, 4, 6 years) suffocated after being trapped in a storage trunk. When those
goofy accidents happen around here, it is usually in the Amish community.

Back to the shunning indicents, one in particular was a young man leaving his
parents household, and his family had no further contact with him. Basically,
the elder (the regional church leader) sets the rules and his rule was to ignore
this young man forever. Some of this stuff doesn't make any sense to me since
the Amish will talk to us, use our phone, ask for rides, etc. If they can talk
to us, why can't they talk to their own son.

One of these young men who left the fold didn't do it so he could go live in a
city. He just wanted to be able to farm using more modern technology like a
tractor (all the Amish around here use horses for field work).

Barb

>
>
> Very thought-provoking....
>
> Jay

CyberCafe

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Nov 24, 2002, 3:19:34 PM11/24/02

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Margie Kahn wrote:

> It's interesting that the kids quit school after 8th grade. That's kinda sad,
> to me.

It's even sadder when the teacher is only 16 or 17 years old.

Barb

14tonks

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Nov 24, 2002, 3:27:39 PM11/24/02

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As I recall from my childhood, Methodist churches were renowned for their
poor choirs. I think it used to be a point of pride with some of them.

For great Protestant church music, you need to go to a black church. My
best friend here in the city used to go to Abyssinian Baptist in Harlem
every Sunday to sing in the choir. She's half Jewish and half
Irish-Catholic by parentage, but wasn't raised in either religion. She
wasn't interested in turning Baptist either; she was just a very good
amateur musician who wanted to do her singing where the good music was. She
says she'd feel uncomfortable going back there now, but in the 50's and
early 60's the fact she had a lovely voice and sang great gospel was all
that was needed for them to welcome a white kid come down on the subway from
the Bronx, and make her feel right at home.

"Woodfordbc" <woodf...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20021124143604...@mb-mc.aol.com...

Melinda Meahan

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Nov 24, 2002, 4:58:24 PM11/24/02

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14tonks wrote:

>As I recall from my childhood, Methodist churches were renowned for their poor choirs. I think it used to be a point of pride with some of them.
>

Poor choirs? An excellent choir is what I miss most from the Methodist
Church. I haven't hit a Baptist church yet that has had a choir that
can handle all the complex things we did in the Methodist choir.

>She says she'd feel uncomfortable going back there now, but in the 50's and early 60's the fact she had a lovely voice and sang great gospel was all that was needed for them to welcome a white kid come down on the subway from the Bronx, and make her feel right at home.
>

What a neat story!

--
I know God will not give me anything I can't handle.
I just wish that He didn't trust me so much. - Mother Teresa

RaeMorrill

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Nov 24, 2002, 5:10:29 PM11/24/02

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In article <20021124143604...@mb-mc.aol.com>,
woodf...@aol.comnojunk (Woodfordbc) writes:

>
>I was raised Catholic, but after a long absence from going to church I've
>been
>attending a Methodist church because my personal feelings and beliefs are a
>better match here than with Catholicism.

The Bible speaks against repetitive prayers, but I can see that consistency is
something one gets used to, the same things said over and over, responses,
etc., but I don't believe it is the way to worship

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Nov 25, 2002, 9:30:47 AM11/25/02

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>I've thought of that, except that I live in Maine, the whitest state in the
>nation

LOL. I use to think that was Wisconsin. On our second trip to Wisconsin this
year, DH and I were sitting in a fast food restaurant eating. I looked around
and then said to DH, "Notice anything?" to which he said, "Yeah, everybody is
white."
Interestingly, I've been to Maine once, when I was about 9, on vacation. My
uncle had a marina, and I remember a black family arriving and a little girl
approached me. She asked if I was prejudiced, and I told her truthfully that
she was the first black person I had ever met. She was nice, but she shocked
me when she pulled her hair off. She was wearing a wig over her hair, which
I'd never heard of a kid doing before.

RaeMorrill

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Nov 25, 2002, 9:32:51 AM11/25/02

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In article <3DE162AF...@sonic.net>, Melinda Meahan <mme...@sonic.net>
writes:

>
>They use it if they have their own generator to generate it. The
>problem -- not that I agree with it but this is their reasoning -- is
>that the telephone lines and electric lines have them joined with
>gentiles/unbelievers and that is what they have a problem with.

How hypocritical then to use the phone for ANYTHING. And of course they have to
buy the tractors from the heathens.

RaeMorrill

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Nov 25, 2002, 9:32:52 AM11/25/02

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In article <20021124193839...@mb-fq.aol.com>,
woodf...@aol.comnojunk (Woodfordbc) writes:

>
>I've thought of that, except that I live in Maine, the whitest state in the
>nation (well, maybe Vermont is) so it would be a long Sunday drive. :-)

That sure is the truth. Growing up in the D.C. area, then moving to Maine, then
coming back to southern areas you notice the difference. One could go days and
not see anything but a white face, even if you went out to stores, etc.

Laura S

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Nov 25, 2002, 9:33:00 AM11/25/02

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>but I can see that consistency is
>something one gets used to, the same things said over and over, responses,
>etc., but I don't believe it is the way to worship

I left the Lutheran church because of the liturgical services. For me it was
mind-numbing, and that didn't seem like a good thing.

Laura S

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Nov 25, 2002, 9:34:47 AM11/25/02

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> I guess it's all in what's familiar to us, huh?
>>

Not necessarily. I was brought up Lutheran and enjoyed the hymns, but started
going to Baptist churches and found the hymn were incredible.

Phyllis Nilsson

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Nov 25, 2002, 2:59:51 PM11/25/02

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I certainly agree about the music in a black church. They certainly know how to
praise the Lord!

14tonks wrote:

> For great Protestant church music, you need to go to a black church.

-----------== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Uncensored Usenet News ==----------

Pwdrblu2

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Nov 26, 2002, 1:32:45 AM11/26/02

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>he funny thing is that I fully agree that Easter (i.e. Ishtar, i.e.
>Ashtoreth) has pagan origins <LOL>

Christmas also has pagan origins as well, but not many, including my mother,
knew that.

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Nov 26, 2002, 5:30:01 PM11/26/02

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In article <3DE3F13E...@sonic.net>, Melinda Meahan <mme...@sonic.net>
writes:

>Does the current ceremony still have the congregation say, "With God's

>help, we will so order our lives around the example of Christ that this
>child, as he/she grows, will become established in the faith and
>strengthened in the way that leads to life eternal," or something like
>that?

Yes, and I cry when we do it for a kid I don't know. Everyone's dreading
Zachary's upcoming christening!

RaeMorrill

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Nov 26, 2002, 6:48:20 PM11/26/02

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In article <20021126173001...@mb-fk.aol.com>,
blup...@aol.combadstuff (Becky Young) writes:

>
>Yes, and I cry when we do it for a kid I don't know. Everyone's dreading

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Nov 27, 2002, 12:53:45 AM11/27/02

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The bible also talks about believing, repenting and being baptized in order to
be saved. I baby can neither believe or repent? The household also does not
mention babies.

Melinda Meahan

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Nov 27, 2002, 1:15:09 PM11/27/02

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I'm not arguing the issue, I am just stating where people I know of get
their Scripturally-supported justification for it.

Pwdrblu2 wrote:

--