Aranym
SF0218
I'd like to read the thoughts of any persons who've been using Aranym. I'm
contemplating selling my Falcon and going with Aranym on my athlon based
system.
Thanks,
SamF
Mark D
I like Aranym, It has great use for me coding at work. Would I ever
replace my CT60 falcon with it? Never. It's a good help for me, never a
replacement. Just as well, I can provide a good home for that falcon if
need be ;-)
Standa Opichal
Matthias Alles
> I'd like to read the thoughts of any persons who've been using Aranym. I'm
> contemplating selling my Falcon and going with Aranym on my athlon based
> system.
Aranym is nice, if you want to compile things with MiNT for example. But
it never can give you the feeling you have when sitting in front of a
real Falcon. Sitting in front of a PC running an emulator (or virtual
machine if you prefer this) isn´t just as nice as sitting in front of an
Atari. That is why Aranym is not THE alternative for me.
Matthias
Janez Valant
> I'm contemplating selling my Falcon and going with Aranym on my athlon
> based system.
Thank you, ARANYM dudes....
Bruce
"SF0218" <sf0...@aol.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:20040113152223...@mb-m04.aol.com...
mis...@sezampro.yu
My second machine is Aranym system runung on AMD (Mandrake 9.1+Aranym+NAES
2.0+Thing )
Aranym is future for all Atarians !!!
Regards Misha !!!
Janez Valant
> Aranym is future for all Atarians !!!
Mac"ininan"? Blah.
mis...@sezampro.yu
(anyway I have also atari Falcon and Ste !!!) ;-)
regards ,Misha
Jo Even Skarstein
>> Aranym is future for all Atarians !!!
>
> User running aranym, is not Atarian. I have few emus, so am i Amigian,
I only have two "Ataris" running now. One Milan running MiNT/N.AES, and
one ancient Mac (Performa 475) running MagiCMac. I guess I'm no Atarian
then...
--
/*
** Jo Even Skarstein http://joska.nvg.org/
*/
o...@atari-rules.org
> Janez Valant <s...@atari.org> wrote:
>
> >> Aranym is future for all Atarians !!!
> >
> > User running aranym, is not Atarian. I have few emus, so am i Amigian,
>
> I only have two "Ataris" running now. One Milan running MiNT/N.AES, and
> one ancient Mac (Performa 475) running MagiCMac. I guess I'm no Atarian
> then...
When you use the Milan, you are an Atarian, cause then you use hardware
designed to be a TOS machine. When you use the ancient Mac, you are not an
Atarian, cause it was not designed to be a TOS machine ;-)
--
Regards,
Odd Skancke - <ozk AT atari DOT org> - http://assemsoft.atari.org
To reply, remove -RULES from the Reply-To: address.
SWE/YesCREW
> On Thu, 22 Jan 2004, Jo Even Skarstein wrote:
>
> > Janez Valant <s...@atari.org> wrote:
> >
> > >> Aranym is future for all Atarians !!!
> > >
> > > User running aranym, is not Atarian. I have few emus, so am i Amigian,
> >
> > I only have two "Ataris" running now. One Milan running MiNT/N.AES, and
> > one ancient Mac (Performa 475) running MagiCMac. I guess I'm no Atarian
> > then...
>
> When you use the Milan, you are an Atarian, cause then you use hardware
> designed to be a TOS machine. When you use the ancient Mac, you are not an
> Atarian, cause it was not designed to be a TOS machine ;-)
And u dont yell arround how Aranym is Atari future, how new HW in work
is crap and so on... I like Ataris because of nice hardware they
introduced at time, diferent hardware and software we use.. And i love it
with good or bad points.. So what if i cant watch DVDs? Aranym pages make
ppl believe that now playing mp3 at 9% (7% here on falcon) and DVD/AVIs is
all we need..
Janez
P.S. I dont judge anyone using Aranym. It may be usefull tool, coding
envoirment, but its not Atari future... I speak for myself: at the moment
no new hw will came out, no old one will be possible to acquire etc, ill
switch platform.. but hopefully that wont make some time yet :))
Jo Even Skarstein
> When you use the Milan, you are an Atarian, cause then you use hardware
> designed to be a TOS machine. When you use the ancient Mac, you are not an
> Atarian, cause it was not designed to be a TOS machine ;-)
Both machines are mounted to the underside of my desk. I can't see the
hardware, and when they're running, I really can't tell if it's the
"real" hardware or not (except for the speed of course). So to me the
labels on the PCB's and chips doesn't matter.
Janez Valant
Okay, but for me they dont run a lot of Atari software. I dont expect
100% compatbility but let say some 30-40% maybe, to call machine "Atari" as
we meant it, ST>TT>F030 line of machines...
Janez
mis...@sezampro.yu
When you run on linux you can enable JIT and you can work
like never before on real Atari !!!
Jo Even Skarstein
> Okay, but for me they dont run a lot of Atari software. I dont expect
> 100% compatbility but let say some 30-40% maybe, to call machine "Atari" as
> we meant it, ST>TT>F030 line of machines...
I would be very surprised if Aranym was less "compatible" than my
Milan. There are many good ST-emulators that are almost 100% compatible
(but also limited, as they're only ST's ofcourse), my Milan will only run
clean GEM-apps.
Janez Valant
I have tried Aranym, u dont need to explain me anything. Most apps i
regulary use, dont work. Im not pure GEM user, there are non GEM apps which
are better as GEM ones, and i use them often, and i definately dont give a
shit if i cant watch DVDs on Ataris i own. Please spare me such remarks...
For Aranym, as new Atari hope i need to fullfill 2 things actualy, one is
to get a PC and 2nd is to instal Linux (since only really usable version is
Linux one). Interesting indeed.
Janez
Janez Valant
> I would be very surprised if Aranym was less "compatible" than my
> Milan. There are many good ST-emulators that are almost 100% compatible
> (but also limited, as they're only ST's ofcourse), my Milan will only run
> clean GEM-apps.
Yes and Aranym does run few apps more.. Still no trackers, non gem
painters, games... Those are "Atari apps" as well. And u know what im
against. Im not against Aranym, or users of it, im against calling it new
Atari, or best Atari, or Atari future... Aranym is an emu (or virtual
machine) and Milan is GEM compatible machine. Thats is not a word to
declare it bad, its just truth what it is. Same as for example new VW
beetle is not the real VW beetle. Its faster, more comfortable and still
any serius VW fan will say it has 0% feeling of original. My friend has
Milan, use it a lot, he never call it best Atari he has.. And we dont have
any squarrel bout it... As u have all rights to use Aranym, like it etc, i
have same right to call it non Atari, emu or vitual machine, i dont offend
anyone with that...
Janez
o...@atari-rules.org
Well, to me the hardware plays a vital role. I point out that this might
be just me, but lets take oVDI which I'm working on. Do you think you can
use the driver written for ARAnyM on a PC with Radeon on a Hades with a
Radeon? The want us to think of ARAnyM as new hardware... well, lets
see...
Misha
Janez Valant
> The best and most popular Atari app's are GEM application !!! :-)
Ok, u didnt run many nongem apps i see....
Janez
Misha
On 24-Jan-2004, Janez Valant <s...@atari.org> wrote:
> NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 11:07:35 MET
> Xref: EUnet.yu comp.sys.atari.st:119689
>
> Misha wrote:
>
> > The best and most popular Atari app's are GEM application !!! :-)
>
> Ok, u didn't run many nongem apps i see....
>
>
>
Very funny......;-)
Johan Klockars
<o...@atari-RULES.org> wrote:
>On Fri, 23 Jan 2004, Jo Even Skarstein wrote:
>
>> o...@atari-rules.org wrote:
>>
>> > When you use the Milan, you are an Atarian, cause then you use hardware
>> > designed to be a TOS machine. When you use the ancient Mac, you are not an
>> > Atarian, cause it was not designed to be a TOS machine ;-)
If I were to have a definition of 'an Atarian', it would be a person
that uses Atari software. Not that I care one way or the other.
>> "real" hardware or not (except for the speed of course). So to me the
>> labels on the PCB's and chips doesn't matter.
>
> Well, to me the hardware plays a vital role. I point out that this might
>be just me, but lets take oVDI which I'm working on. Do you think you can
>use the driver written for ARAnyM on a PC with Radeon on a Hades with a
>Radeon?
So, you have access to Radeon documentation so you can write an actual
AGP/PCI driver for oVDI? If so, I'd be very interested in getting hold
of that (but not for the purpose of writing an ARAnyM driver, see below).
As it is, the only halfway modern cards I have documentation for are the
Voodoo cards.
Anyway, assuming you ported ARAnyM to run on the Hades, the fVDI ARAnyM
driver should work perfectly well there.
This is because the driver (well, the ARAnyM native part of it, the
68k part does not do much at all) does not attempt to use the graphics
card of the PC directly. That is often impossible due to lack of
documentation, locks you into a (or a couple of) specific card, and is
mostly pointless in any case since the API overhead when running on
modern hardware is not worth worrying about.
In the specific case of the current fVDI ARAnyM driver, it is very
much slower for many operations than it could be, since it uses the
SDL library for screen access rather than something like Xlib or OpenGL
(there are plans to develop one or both of these, though). But it can
still beat current hardware accelerated graphics on 68k Atari
compatibles (not necessarily for all operations or for all combinations
of hardware and software).
> The want us to think of ARAnyM as new hardware... well, lets see...
Well, any Atari software that does not access any hardware directly,
and is OK on a modern 68k cpu, should run under ARAnyM.
Just as would be the case for an actual machine built to run (a modified)
TOS on a modern 68k cpu but without supporting any of the 'legacy' chips.
--
Chalmers University | Why are these | e-mail: ra...@cd.chalmers.se
of Technology | .signatures |
| so hard to do | WWW: http://www.klockars.net
Gothenburg, Sweden | well? | (fVDI, MGIFv5, QLem)
Misha
On 24-Jan-2004, ra...@cd.chalmers.se (Johan Klockars) wrote:
> If I were to have a definition of 'an Atarian', it would be a person
> that uses Atari software. Not that I care one way or the other.
Bravo !!!
Thats right !!!I
> >> "real" hardware or not (except for the speed of course). So to me the
> >> labels on the PCB's and chips doesn't matter.
For me also !!!
Everyone who run Atari software,need :speed,high color graphics,16bit sounds
network,and with Aranym you have everything !!!Also invest in one Aranym
system is
not expensive !!! (AMD 2600+ for example )
Janez Valant
I guess im not EVERYONE then. Go propagate buying cheap computers (PC)
somewhere else please. Excuse, that chip label dont count, is not the right
one. Aranym is not an Atari, esp since it lies on alien OS regardless if
run on Mac or PC (intel/motorola). No Linux/Windows equals No Aranym, so
please stop talking about Atari system. It is Windows/Linux system running
Atari emulator.
Speed is relative, Ct60 costed 200E, high color graphics we can have
already , better one with video cards, network we have already, and 16bit
sound: dont make me laugh, Falcon can blow Aranyms sound abilities away
anytime.
Djordje Vukovic
> When you use the Milan, you are an Atarian, cause then you use hardware
>designed to be a TOS machine. When you use the ancient Mac, you are not an
>Atarian, cause it was not designed to be a TOS machine ;-)
Why so rigidly prescribing what is ortodox and what is not ;) What is
wrong with running TOS-compatible OS on a machine which is designed to
run any operating system?
cu;
Djordje Vukovic
Sort of a Turing test, he he :)
Btw. I know that it has been ben stated long ago by a member of the
Aranym team that one of the long-term but low-priority targets would be
to create a cut-down configuration of the host operating system (which
could be installed from a couple of floppy disks) which would boot Aranym
immediately. I think that it would help promote Aranym's cause greatly
if that target was given a higher priority, so tht one can start from
a "clean" machine and simply arrive to an Aranym-only system. For the
purists, one need not call that software "host operating system" at all,
it can be "console firmware system" or something like that, similar to
which exists on some more powerfull machinws which boot a quite
sophisticated "console" before booting the "real" OS.
cu;
o...@atari-rules.org
Nothing, just dont call it a TOS clone, or new TOS hardware.
Misha
On 24-Jan-2004, Janez Valant <s...@atari.org> wrote:
> I guess im not EVERYONE then. Go propagate buying cheap computers (PC)
Sory You are not Everyone,You are Atarian !
and dont speak me about Falcon and Atari !!
I know wery well what can you do with Falcon in 2004 !!!
You can take all acelerator and what you want ,and dont speak me about
motoroala 030,040,060 ! in 2004 !!!
And also you have to know Falcon is far from good sound !!! (motorola DSP
old one ) !!!
And tell me can you go to shop and take new Atari ?
And Linux is damn good OS,far from TOS !!! is not the shame to boot Aranym
with Linux !!!
And you can go to propagate story's about Falcon and something like that
somewhere else !!!
Real Atarians need good and fast machine,not 16,......100Mhz c'mon !!!
Regards Misha !!!
Janez Valant
> Sory You are not Everyone,You are Atarian !
> and dont speak me about Falcon and Atari !!
> I know wery well what can you do with Falcon in 2004 !!!
No u dont.
> You can take all acelerator and what you want ,and dont speak me about
> motoroala 030,040,060 ! in 2004 !!!
And why not? they ARE the heart of Ataris. I run website (apache), ftp
server, unix os, and use daily the 030 based machine. And it does all
nicely. The only thing i use PC for and not Atari are newsgroups infact. No
realy good reader for news, and i dont like pine for newsgroups. Knews is
nice, but have issues with sending posts...
> And also you have to know Falcon is far from good sound !!! (motorola DSP
> old one ) !!!
Please dont make fool of your self. Falcon can drive 8 16bit 50khz
channels at same time, with realtime effects, even with "old DSP". It can
play SNDH files, it can play a LOT of trackers, it can play Falcamp, on
CT60 with 2-3% CPU usage, it can play Aniplayer with 6-7% CPU usage (with
ct60), it can play cool ACE softsynth, it cam play FlaySID, it can play
GTracker mods,and so on... Apart from Aniplayer, what of those apps u can
run on Aranym. Also it can use digital out, so u dont need to use bad
quality headphone/mic output. Now name me ONE application from above,
except Aniplayer, which use any of features today good PC cards offer, to
beat Falcon?
> And tell me can you go to shop and take new Atari ?
No u cant sadly. U can't at all. Even if u buy PC, u will not get new
Atari.
> And Linux is damn good OS,far from TOS !!! is not the shame to boot Aranym
> with Linux !!!
Who said Linux is bad or shame? And what TOS has to do with it? Fact is,
if u need to use Linux or Windows as NATIVE OS to run Atari EMULATOR, then
machine is NOT ATARI. And we mainly not use TOS, but Magic or MiNT, which
is btw, nice Unix like os, with comand line unix, ext2, unix networking and
GEM GUI.... And even if u hate TOS, it is ESSENTIAL for booting aranym...
> And you can go to propagate story's about Falcon and something like that
> somewhere else !!!
Realy!? Where, in Amiga group? PC group? Acorm group? Mind u, this IS
Atari group.... U want anyone that not think like you to go away?
> Real Atarians need good and fast machine,not 16,......100Mhz c'mon !!!
Real Atarian uses real Ataris. Even if they have bad points, or not 10GHz
processors. Real Atarian for sure dont yell real Ataris are crap. Real
Atarians dont push ppl to propagate Atari "somewhere else". Real atarian
dont cry and moan if dont have 10ghz, they just use what they have, and
seeing Atari software, they doing it WELL!
But tell me this: what new Aranym brings to scene, apart from speed?
TT/MSTE/Falcon can have GFX cards. Each machine, when introduced, allows
and trigger users to make new and beter apps, using new features those
machine brought... Last year we got ACE, totaly new type of application for
Ataris etc. What NEW Aranym bring us? Its some 30-40% compatible, dont
offer anything new to Atari except speed, which is not something i call
essential. Tell me one Atari application, developed on Aranym, which uses
NEW resources Aranym (not) have, so we can have something new and
revolutionary? Aranym can only run Papillon etc faster, not too good, if u
know ESCPaint or Apex are way better anyway. Does NeoN use any of 3d gfx
power on Aranym? Does Cubase use resources of modern PC Sound cards? Does
new, better software for GEM to use those good resources exist? Can u tell
me one thing Aranym can do and Falcon can not? (mind u, Falcon CAN play
AVi, divx etc, just very slow) I can name u a LOT of Falcon apps which can
NOT run on aranym. I can name u also a LOT of apps which runs on ST/TT and
Falcon (so u cant blame Falcon specifics) which dont run on aranym, and so
on...
Janez
P.S.: to other aranym users: Even if it sound so, im not against aranym, i
realise it may be nice tool, it is very usable and it did start as nice
aproach, it is imho way nicer as MagicPC/Mac and others.. I just dont see
it as Atari machine/hardware. That is all. It is a virtual machine or emu
or simply aranym (altough it only work ok on PC) same as Milan is not
Atari, but GEM compatible. Good one if i may say... And word "GEM
compatible" is not something bad or meant to be bad... its just a fact.
o...@atari-rules.org
You are clearly posting to the wrong newsgroup here. I know perfectly
well, as other also know, what one can do with Atari in 2004. This groups
is about Atari and its OS, not how fast emulation of our OS runs on other
platforms. I think most of us in here are aware of that fact as well.
Misha
On 25-Jan-2004, Janez Valant <s...@atari.org> wrote:
> he only thing i use PC for and not Atari are newsgroups infact. No
> realy good reader for news, and i dont like pine for newsgroups. Knews is
> nice, but have issues with sending posts...
Try Emailer 2.3 !!! :-) is not bad !
>it can play cool ACE softsynth,
ACE is cool !!!
> And even if u hate TOS, it is ESSENTIAL for booting aranym.
I like TOS so much !!! :)
> Realy!? Where, in Amiga group? PC group? Acorm group? Mind u, this IS
> Atari group.... U want anyone that not think like you to go away?
Sorry !!!
> Real Atarian uses real Ataris. Even if they have bad points, or not 10GHz
> processors. Real Atarian for sure dont yell real Ataris are crap. Real
> Atarians dont push ppl to propagate Atari "somewhere else". Real atarian
> dont cry and moan if dont have 10ghz, they just use what they have, and
> seeing Atari software, they doing it WELL!
For atari is O.K. 16MHz !!! :)
> P.S.: to other aranym users: Even if it sound so, im not against aranym, i
> realise it may be nice tool, it is very usable and it did start as nice
> aproach, it is imho way nicer as MagicPC/Mac and others.. I just dont see
> it as Atari machine/hardware. That is all. It is a virtual machine or emu
> or simply aranym (altough it only work ok on PC) same as Milan is not
> Atari, but GEM compatible. Good one if i may say... And word "GEM
> compatible" is not something bad or meant to be bad... its just a fact.
This is nice ;)
Regards Misha !!!
Didier Méquignon
Humm there are just a big problem with Aranym, a good speed is just for
PC, no JIT for Mac (PPC).
And I hate X86...
I haven't tried Aranym since I have my CT60, I have an Imac G3 500 Mhz
(<=> CT2 under Aranym). With this machine I can compare the speed of the
CT60 to MagiCMac (OS9), same results with DivX movies.
My CT60 with the old DSP has better results with MP3 than Aranym PC ;-)
Regards,
Didier.
--
Didier MEQUIGNON Aniplayer download: http://aniplay.atari.org
Address: 25,rue de l'Ascenseur 62510 Arques FRANCE
Atari FALCON 030/CT 60 10 5 MHz 270Mb/13Gb ~ iMac 500Mhz 320Mb/20Gb
Kenneth Medin
Janez Valant wrote on Sun 25-01-2004 09:58 (+0100):
>nicely. The only thing i use PC for and not Atari are newsgroups infact. No
>realy good reader for news, and i dont like pine for newsgroups. Knews is
>nice, but have issues with sending posts...
>> And Linux is damn good OS,far from TOS !!! is not the shame to boot Aranym
>> with Linux !!!
>
> Who said Linux is bad or shame? And what TOS has to do with it? Fact is,
>if u need to use Linux or Windows as NATIVE OS to run Atari EMULATOR, then
>machine is NOT ATARI. And we mainly not use TOS, but Magic or MiNT, which
>is btw, nice Unix like os, with comand line unix, ext2, unix networking and
>GEM GUI.... And even if u hate TOS, it is ESSENTIAL for booting aranym...
Remember that Linux can run on genuine Atari hardware as well! And, as
you actually need TOS to boot Debian m68k things get a bit complicated...
Is Linux just an emulator running on top of TOS. Is BIOS/XBIOS part of
TOS? etc... I suppose Linux accesses Atari hardware direct, though.
And now comes the funny part... Aranym is present on Debian m68k so in
fact you could perhaps run Aranym on real Atari hardware as well!
There was a discussion if "emulators" should be permitted at the Nordic
Atari Show and I tried to actually run Aranym on my TT :-)
Aranym is available via APT (Advanced Packaging Tool) in m68k and it
installed just fine but exited with errors when I tried to run it...
On the other hand I never got X running in the first place on Woddy but
might give that a try again some time. I have discovered I used wrong
addresses for my video card (et4000) in BOOTARGS:
-s -k linux.bin root=/dev/sdd5 video=external:1024;768;1;n;0xfec00000;;0xfed80300;6;vga;1024
When it (for monochrome) should be?:
-s -k linux.bin root=/dev/sdd5 video=external:1024;768;1;n;0xfec00000;;0xfed00000;6;vga;1024
I would really love to se Aranym running on my TT just for fun... Who
knows, it might be usable as JIT should not be needed :-)
> Real Atarian uses real Ataris. Even if they have bad points, or not 10GHz
>processors. Real Atarian for sure dont yell real Ataris are crap. Real
>Atarians dont push ppl to propagate Atari "somewhere else". Real atarian
>dont cry and moan if dont have 10ghz, they just use what they have, and
>seeing Atari software, they doing it WELL!
From a purist or collectors point of view this is perfectly true. As a
comparison I tend to drive my old DAF car in summer because it is more
fun etc... I would never even dream of building a V8 hot rod that looked
like a Marathon Coupé but is in fact just an external replica...
> But tell me this: what new Aranym brings to scene, apart from speed?
It brings the possibility to get a TOS compatible computer without the
need to search around for old second hand stuff. Eventually all genuine
computers with the Atari label on them will come to a halt. At that time
maybe it will be possible to run Aranym on an IBM compatible emulator or
other kind of virtual machine, who knows...
>P.S.: to other aranym users: Even if it sound so, im not against aranym, i
>realise it may be nice tool, it is very usable and it did start as nice
>aproach, it is imho way nicer as MagicPC/Mac and others.. I just dont see
>it as Atari machine/hardware. That is all. It is a virtual machine or emu
>or simply aranym (altough it only work ok on PC) same as Milan is not
>Atari, but GEM compatible. Good one if i may say... And word "GEM
>compatible" is not something bad or meant to be bad... its just a fact.
This is all true but the distinction between hardware and software is not
at all clear any more! Just think of CT60 that is actually running on
"programmable hardware" whatever that means...
--
Kenneth Medin <kenn...@tripnet.se>
Atari TT at home: http://atari.mine.nu/
<<Produced with 100% pure Atari equipment>>
Peter Slegg
>
>Sort of a Turing test, he he :)
>
>Btw. I know that it has been ben stated long ago by a member of the
>Aranym team that one of the long-term but low-priority targets would be
>to create a cut-down configuration of the host operating system (which
>could be installed from a couple of floppy disks) which would boot Aranym
>immediately. I think that it would help promote Aranym's cause greatly
>if that target was given a higher priority, so tht one can start from
>a "clean" machine and simply arrive to an Aranym-only system. For the
>purists, one need not call that software "host operating system" at all,
>it can be "console firmware system" or something like that, similar to
>which exists on some more powerfull machinws which boot a quite
>sophisticated "console" before booting the "real" OS.
>
>cu;
When I first heard about Aranym I misunderstood what the aim was.
I thought it was going to be a system that provided a method to
boot into a TOS (Mint, Magic etc) system on any hardware without
using an existing, underlying OS.
I am not against Aranym, I just prefer not to have to maintain
two very different OS on the same box.
If the machine boots without ever having to see, understand
or maintain anything about the OS that is bootstrapping the
TOS OS then I might be converted.
Regards,
Peter
Frank Szymanski
>No realy good reader for news, and i dont like pine for newsgroups. Knews is
>nice, but have issues with sending posts...
You should try CAT (freeware) as your newsreader. To be honest CAT was the
main reason why I stayed with my ATARI during the hard years.
So today I am using my ATARIs again for mainly every task not only
newsreading. :-)
BTW, I just released an MP3 Tag editor (http://mpti.factorynews.de) but only
in German language. Are there any volunteers that can translate the .RSC file?
Regards,
Frank
Henk Robbers
Words of wisdom :-)
You can put anything you want in ROM chips.
I have read about a project to flash a Linux kernel into a x86's bios chip.
So is x86 designed to run MS Windows?
Certainly not, as 68K, x86 is a general purpose CPU.
The Atari ST happened to have a OS in its ROM that was written for
x86 in the first place. We have ran x86 software in our precious ataris
for almost 20 years now. ;-)
x86 assembly is nowadays executed by a microcode in the CPU's
Put another microcode (aranym) on top of it and you turn a modern fast
computer into a atari. Or a atari compatible if you wish.
In the early 70's I already worked on a mainframe that could run 2 different
platforms by microcode at the same time. Nobody complained that they
were not genuine.
Quite the opposite, it was generally considered a giant leap forward in
computer technological achievement.
This is true for aranym as well.
All this 'real atari' talk is conservatism that doesnt contribute anything
usefull. Its basically people growing old and remembering the toys of their
youth, forgetting all the harshness and limitations of that time.
--
Groeten; Regards.
Henk Robbers. mailto:h.ro...@chello.nl
http://members.ams.chello.nl/h.robbers/Home.html
Interactive disassembler: TT-Digger; http://digger.atari.org
A Home Cooked teXt editor: AHCX
Brian Roland
If you need a computer for mission critical functions, hire a consulting team
and get out of the way!
If they mess it up, fire'um and try someone new ;)
Don't wanna buy the bloat?
Then stop trying to replace all your people with computers....then everyone and
their brother will not be edging into the markets trying to make some sort of a
living on asthetics and nifty factors.
If you just want something to play with and learn on, does it really matter?
If your choice fits your wants and needs....who really cares?
I've enjoyed Atari lore and products most of my life, and will continue to do
so, but lets face it. It's just a BRAND, a symbol, a marketing tool. It's not
a nation. The minds and hearts behind Atari have moved on, and I doubt many of
the lost much sleep over the gradual desentigration of the Fuji brand. So why
should we?
I guess I'm just one of those insane people who doesn't care if Pepsi and Coke
are in the same fridge. Gasp, I've even owned a GM, Ford, Crysler, and Toyota
all at the same time! Have I no loyalties? *last time I checked, all the
companies had great people working for them, some of them living in my own
neighborhood*.
If there's gonna be a civil war....
At least find something worth fighting for, and fighting about.
Brian
Galen
> I haven't tried Aranym since I have my CT60, I have an Imac G3 500 Mhz
> (<=> CT2 under Aranym). With this machine I can compare the speed of the
> CT60 to MagiCMac (OS9), same results with DivX movies.
> My CT60 with the old DSP has better results with MP3 than Aranym PC ;-)
>
Hmmm, more to worry about then. My stock Falcon (with a 44.1KHz clock
added) plays the few test MP3s I have here at 90-120%. My CT60 needs
50-70%. My son's 600Mhz G3 uses about 12% for the same file. Do you
have a sample MP3 file I could download for comparison tests?
Galen (who will eventually take his Linux box out of the closet)
Adam Klobukowski
50-70% for MP3 under CT60? Check if you have DSP activated!
--
Semper Fidelis
Adam Klobukowski
at...@gabo.pl
Petr Stehlik
> Btw. I know that it has been ben stated long ago by a member of the
> Aranym team that one of the long-term but low-priority targets would be
> to create a cut-down configuration of the host operating system (which
> could be installed from a couple of floppy disks) which would boot Aranym
> immediately.
it's not low-priority. It's the final goal. But in order to get there
the ARAnyM itself needs to be improved a bit, I think.
> I think that it would help promote Aranym's cause greatly if that target
> was given a higher priority, so tht one can start from a "clean" machine
> and simply arrive to an Aranym-only system.
It's possible for quite some time already. You must have missed the
release of ARAnyM/AFROS Live CD. Please find more information at
http://aranym.atari.org/livecd.html
Petr
Petr Stehlik
> When I first heard about Aranym I misunderstood what the aim was.
> I thought it was going to be a system that provided a method to
> boot into a TOS (Mint, Magic etc) system on any hardware without
> using an existing, underlying OS.
That's one of the goals, right.
> If the machine boots without ever having to see, understand
> or maintain anything about the OS that is bootstrapping the
> TOS OS then I might be converted.
The current ARAnyM/AFROS Live CD does not hide the underlying Linux kernel
perfectly yet but I believe that it's just a matter of few tweaks to get
it hidden so well that you wouldn't even notice it. Give it a try and be
tolerant to the questions about your mouse and resolution - some things
are not easy to detect automatically.
http://aranym.atari.org/livecd.html
Petr
Petr Stehlik
> And I hate X86...
I used to hate that architecture as well. But later I found out that AMD
was actually doing great CPUs that happened to be compatible with the old
x86 instructions in order to run all existing x86 software - but
internally these Athlon CPUs are completely different than the stuff Intel
produces. Thus I changed my mind and now I favour AMD over Intel. I don't
like Intel, I don't like the old x86 architecture, I hate their assembler
- but I do like the chips the AMD produces and I like to have AMD powered
ARAnyM.
As you can see, even with ARAnyM I am still in the "Intel Outside" camp :)
> My CT60 with the old DSP has better results with MP3 than Aranym PC ;-)
Excuse me but this is a very inaccurate statement. While CT60 is more or
less the same (60-120 MHz), "ARAnyM PC" is completely unknown thing unless
you define the speed of the host PC.
In other words: I can prove that my ARAnyM running on K7@2300 can beat
your CT60 in everything. At the same time, I am sure that my other ARAnyM
running on K5@75 is slower than stock Falcon.
Can you see the difference?
Petr
Petr Stehlik
> Who said Linux is bad or shame? And what TOS has to do with it? Fact is,
> if u need to use Linux or Windows as NATIVE OS to run Atari EMULATOR, then
> machine is NOT ATARI.
you actually don't need windows or linux. You can adapt EmuTOS or FreeMiNT
to boot on any hardware directly. It would only take hudred thousands of
manhours to do that. Do you have the manpower handy? Working for free?
Do you guys understand the problems we had to decide how to solve them
best when we were designing the ARAnyM? I don't think so.
> And even if u hate TOS, it is ESSENTIAL for booting aranym...
this is not true. AFROS does not use TOS and boots. Also, FreeMiNT can be
extended to boot directly but noone seems to be interested in that.
> But tell me this: what new Aranym brings to scene, apart from speed?
> TT/MSTE/Falcon can have GFX cards. Each machine, when introduced, allows
> and trigger users to make new and beter apps, using new features those
> machine brought... Last year we got ACE, totaly new type of application
> for Ataris etc. What NEW Aranym bring us? Its some 30-40% compatible,
> dont offer anything new to Atari except speed, which is not something i
> call essential. Tell me one Atari application, developed on Aranym,
> which uses NEW resources Aranym (not) have, so we can have something new
> and revolutionary?
Well. I don't want programmers to create applications that would run on
ARAnyM only (as you call it 'revolutional'). This would not help anyone.
There are few remaining software authors left and the only way of
keeping the whole atari scene alive is to produce 100% compatible
software running on most reasonable configurations (ranging probably from
stock Falcon up to the 060 based machines).
> Does NeoN use
> any of 3d gfx power on Aranym? Does Cubase use resources of modern PC
> Sound cards?
I could say "not yet" but judging from the discussion going on here I
think I can safely say "it never will". There doesn't seem to be any
interest from the regular users and without that nothing will happen.
> resources exist? Can u tell me one thing Aranym can do and Falcon can
> not? (mind u, Falcon CAN play AVi, divx etc, just very slow)
this is actually a funny point. You can watch movie on Falcon and you
don't mind that 2 hours movie will take 15 hours to watch :-)
> I can name
> u a LOT of Falcon apps which can NOT run on aranym. I can name u also a
> LOT of apps which runs on ST/TT and Falcon (so u cant blame Falcon
> specifics) which dont run on aranym, and so on...
This is also funny - you measure the power of a particular machine by
counting the applications that are specific for this machine. So Falcon
has about 800 specific applications, compared to ARAnyM, which doesn't
have any app that would be ARAnyM only (since ARAnyM runs all clean
software) - the result is that Falcon is the king while ARAnyM is the
loser.
Frankly, I never thought like that. Maybe I should design a special
application that would run on ARAnyM only. Hmm. Maybe we could hire some
demo group? :-) LOL
Petr
Petr Stehlik
> Remember that Linux can run on genuine Atari hardware as well! And, as
> you actually need TOS to boot Debian m68k things get a bit complicated...
This is not true. LILO was developed long time ago.
> Is Linux just an emulator running on top of TOS.
you are making it even more confusing than it was :)
> And now comes the funny part... Aranym is present on Debian m68k so in
> fact you could perhaps run Aranym on real Atari hardware as well!
sure. The source code is even partially prepared for running on m68k based
machines at full speed of the host CPU (similar to VMware). But there is
noone working on finishing it. Maybe you could join the team and make
ARAnyM running on your TT030 at full speed for the NAS?
> Aranym is available via APT (Advanced Packaging Tool) in m68k and it
> installed just fine but exited with errors when I tried to run it...
what version on what OS? Have you reported an error to Debian BTS? Is
anybody working on fixing it?
> I would really love to se Aranym running on my TT just for fun... Who
> knows, it might be usable as JIT should not be needed :-)
See above. Everything is possible if interested guys start working on it.
> It brings the possibility to get a TOS compatible computer without the
> need to search around for old second hand stuff. Eventually all genuine
> computers with the Atari label on them will come to a halt.
Most folks either don't realize that or are willing to stop using their
favourite OS at that time.
Petr
Petr Stehlik
> Perhaps you'd like to move your aranym praise to the aranym mailing list?
> I can't get it to run here on equipment I already own
I am actually glad that people that can't run ARAnyM complain here in this
newsgroup (which I don't follow) and not in the mailing list we've created
for the purpose - simply because there is so quiet in the mailing list and
thus I have a good feeling that ARAnyM runs for everyone without problems ;-))
> It's marketed > as "free" but that's misleading if you don't already
> have a linux box.
Excuse me but this is a complete BS. You never paid us a dime but you
downloaded and tried aranym. If it wasn't free ("free-as-beer") you
wouldn't able to do that.
Besides, ARAnyM and the complete AFROS are way more free that you could
ever imagine ("free as in freedom") but I am not going to bother you with
that 'philosophy'.
Petr
Petr Stehlik
> I still can't get the latest windows port to work. My future is not looking
> so bright. ;-)
Konrad reported to me soon after the 0.8.5beta release that this was the
worst windows version ever and that he went back to 0.8.2 or even 0.8.0.
So it is quite possible that your future is actually bright - the only
thing we need is a developer testing and fixing the future windows
versions of ARAnyM.
In this free world of OpenSource it's all based on interest. Interest
generates results. It's all sort of DYI but not really since the results
are shared. But if there are no windows developers so far it's not as good
as it is on Linux.
Petr
P.S. Wondering if coLinux is helpful for ARAnyM on Windows or not :)
Petr Stehlik
> Aranym pages make
> ppl believe that now playing mp3 at 9% (7% here on falcon) and DVD/AVIs
> is all we need..
I designed the pages so blame me. I am a poor web designer and I don't run
any exciting "Atari" applications so I didn't know how to present the
ARAnyM best. Feel free to contribute better screenshots. Or follow the
link to Standa's pages - you'll see there Calamus and more.
> P.S. I dont judge anyone using Aranym. It may be usefull tool, coding
> envoirment, but its not Atari future... I speak for myself: at the
> moment no new hw will came out, no old one will be possible to acquire
> etc, ill switch platform.. but hopefully that wont make some time yet
> :))
This is it. Everyone should reread that paragraph. All "hardcore Atarians"
are actually ready to switch the platform. Isn't this ironic...
Now compare this with the few lunatics that are trying to keep the
platform alive by developing either hardware (ACP?) or software solutions
for letting the applications run even after the last original atari halts.
I think these guys are likely to fail since the community support is far
from what was expected.
BTW, this year we are going to 'celebrate' 10 years since last original
Atari 32bit computer was sold, I am afraid.
Petr
Adam Klobukowski
> In other words: I can prove that my ARAnyM running on K7@2300 can beat
> your CT60 in everything.
Yep, esp. in heat ouput ;)
Petr Stehlik
> On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 11:06:00 +0100, Petr Stehlik <pste...@sophics.cz> had a noticeable pleasure while writting:
>> In other words: I can prove that my ARAnyM running on K7@2300 can beat
>> your CT60 in everything.
>
> Yep, esp. in heat ouput ;)
confirming that. I don't need heating in my small computer room, the
hungry CPU powered by 300W PSU produces enough heat :-)
However it's good to notice that both latest FreeMiNT and EmuTOS support
"CPU idle calls" which saves power considerably. The temperature of the
CPU goes 10 Celsius degrees down when the FreeMiNT is not doing anything.
Petr
Janez Valant
> Excuse me but this is a very inaccurate statement. While CT60 is more or
> less the same (60-120 MHz), "ARAnyM PC" is completely unknown thing unless
> you define the speed of the host PC.
Excuse me, this is also inacurate. With DSP on MP3 replay with aniplayer
take 7-9% CPU, less with Falcamp.
>
> In other words: I can prove that my ARAnyM running on K7@2300 can beat
> your CT60 in everything. At the same time, I am sure that my other ARAnyM
> running on K5@75 is slower than stock Falcon.
>
> Can you see the difference?
No I cant. U can beat CT60 in everything as long its pure CPU, pure GEM,
dont acces hardware, its not a game, a tracker and so on... in a word, IF
it happens to run on Aranym. I dont realy care if Aranym is faster in CPU
tasks, if there are tasks i regulary use and they dont work in Aranym at
all. And i do use those tasks... I dont like my Falcon and Ataris because
of GEM apps ONLY, i love the whole package...
Janez
Janez Valant
> The current ARAnyM/AFROS Live CD does not hide the underlying Linux kernel
> perfectly yet but I believe that it's just a matter of few tweaks to get
> it hidden so well that you wouldn't even notice it. Give it a try and be
> tolerant to the questions about your mouse and resolution - some things
> are not easy to detect automatically.
>
> http://aranym.atari.org/livecd.html
Hard to be tolerant, even if
Joakim H?gberg
> On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 22:44:07 -0500, lp wrote:
> > It's marketed > as "free" but that's misleading if you don't already
> > have a linux box.
>
> Excuse me but this is a complete BS. You never paid us a dime but you
> downloaded and tried aranym. If it wasn't free ("free-as-beer") you
> wouldn't able to do that.
I think he was refering to that you must first own hardware capable of
running linux. Not questioning whether or not the distribution of
related host OS, emulating layer, the Atari OS FreeMiNT, etc are free
or not.
IMO a very valid point.
Regards,
Joakim
Janez Valant
> 50-70% for MP3 under CT60? Check if you have DSP activated!
Indeed, i get 5-7% with Ct60/100..
Janez
Petr Stehlik
>> Excuse me but this is a very inaccurate statement. While CT60 is more or
>> less the same (60-120 MHz), "ARAnyM PC" is completely unknown thing unless
>> you define the speed of the host PC.
>
> Excuse me, this is also inacurate. With DSP on MP3 replay with aniplayer
> take 7-9% CPU, less with Falcamp.
You misquoted and misreplied. I don't care about percents and wasn't
arguing if something takes 7 or 77%. I just wanted to correct Didier in
his "CT60 is faster than ARAnyM" statement which was simply incorrect
without adding more info about his PC speed.
>> In other words: I can prove that my ARAnyM running on K7@2300 can beat
>> your CT60 in everything. At the same time, I am sure that my other
>> ARAnyM running on K5@75 is slower than stock Falcon.
>>
>> Can you see the difference?
>
> No I cant. U can beat CT60 in everything as long its pure CPU
you misread again. I have been still trying to explain that speed of
ARAnyM depends on speed of the host so without telling the host speed you
can't really compare ARAnyM with other hardware.
That's the difference I was referring to: difference between two ARAnyM
machines where one is faster than CT60 while the other is slower than
stock Falcon.
Do you get it now or am I wasting time because you don't want to
read what I write?
Petr
Petr Stehlik
>> > It's marketed > as "free" but that's misleading if you don't already
>> > have a linux box.
>>
>> Excuse me but this is a complete BS. You never paid us a dime but you
>> downloaded and tried aranym. If it wasn't free ("free-as-beer") you
>> wouldn't able to do that.
>
> I think he was refering to that you must first own hardware capable of
> running linux.
> IMO a very valid point.
Does that mean that Free software solution for any (and also the cheapest
available) hardware is still not good enough for the remaining few Atari
users?
Does it mean that we were expected to actually GIVE AWAY new Athlon
powered machines with preinstalled ARAnyM/AFROS for _FREE_?
Are you guys serious or are you living on another planet?
Maybe we should start selling the ARAnyM right now, say for $400
(that would actually be underpriced, but we must have a competitive price
to sell large amounts, right?). Maybe it would be accepted better then.
And I must not forget to create the killer ARAnyM-only application :)
Petr
Janez Valant
Yes i get now, that u waste time. Stop waisting it and explaining us
things we dont get, or misread, or simply understand english correctly. U
stated your superiority, now leave us plabeians in peace...
Janez
Alexander Beuscher
Hi, Petr!
PS> Does that mean that [...]
Don't feel offended by the people.
There are just two extremely contrary parties (one of whom you belong to)
that probably never will find a consens about what to call Atari
(Hardware, Clones, Emulators, OSes, ...).
Keep in mind that ArAnyM is appreciated by many users and that your team's
striving for an open source "Atari OS" really did push and lead together
several formerly single projects.
You (your team) are doing a great job. People working on Atari hardware
are doing so also. It's a pity that some people in the Atari community
tend to offend each other instead of working hand in hand with each other.
Just my 2 cents
Alexander
Petr Stehlik
> Yes i get now, that u waste time. Stop waisting it and explaining us
> things we dont get, or misread, or simply understand english correctly. U
> stated your superiority, now leave us plabeians in peace...
I have tried to be as technical as possible in this sub-thread started by
Didier. There wasn't any personal attack from me, no superiority or
anything like that. I have just tried to explain that while most emulators
of existing machines try to keep the speed of emulated environment same as
the original machine, ARAnyM is different - it doesn't emulate any
existing machine and so it can run as fast as possible :) Thus comparing
CT60 with ARAnyM on "a PC" is like comparing apples and pears simply
because the speed of pears is unknown ;-)
It's unfortunate that people from the 'other camp' are so allergic on
the ARAnyM word that they don't follow even simplest technical
explanations in plain english. I know it might be partially my fault since
in the beginning I was so surprised that the ARAnyM project was not hailed
like the Atari users lifesaver that I had some stronger discussions that
perhaps polarized the 'scene'. But since then I (or rather we, as many
people is involved in the project directly or indirectly) realized that
users are not gonna switch to ARAnyM suddenly and that ARAnyM will likely
coexist with other TOS compatible computers for years. So we keep
explaining in the hope that people will realize some facts and help the
TOS/GEM world survive (a bit longer).
You may not know that the ARAnyM and AFROS projects (the latter
includes fruits of other well known open source projects like
FreeMiNT, XaAES, fVDI, Teradesk and more) need interested and supporting
users together with active developers, otherwise they'll fail. I think
that all commercial software for TOS/GEM has ceased developing and
distribution and disappeared. There are not enough paying customers. The
platform is long time dead from commercial point of view. The last hope
for remaining users is IMHO in supporting the development of open source
OS and applications. You may disagree with me but I have been using Atari
computers for last 16 years and I remember having hundreds of Atari
friends just in our 100,000 city. Then there were tenths, then there were
three guys and now I am alone with the Falcon in the whole city and I
happen to know _personally_ everybody in 10,000,000 Czech Republic that is
still using an Atari computer - simply because there might be only about
40 users left. If there isn't enough good new applications soon these 40
remaining users switch to another platform. Most of them do have a PC
already, anyway, and are using it for this or that, accessing internet,
and replaying some stuff, and doing school work, or writing documents etc.
I know it. Everybody knows it. Also most of you in the hardcore camp do
have a PC or a Mac, get real, it's not a shame simply because the alien
hardware can be turned into something familiar and useful (you know what I
mean).
This is getting long so chances are nobody reads it up to this point but
anyway: if we don't unite soon, don't start strongly supporting the
remaining choices (FreeMiNT and the rest of AFROS, HighWire, Aniplayer,
good desktop, <fill in the applications that are being slowly developed or
were expected but abandoned>) and strongly support and encourage the
remaining active developers then we are dead no matter how much you like
your genuine Atari hardware made in China 10-20 years ago for a company
that always did care about their game consoles only - and even those was
supporting so badly that they failed (Jaguar). Yes, it's true, closing
your eyes doesn't change that, only real activity can.
To get back to the original question ("should I sell falcon and buy a
PC for ARAnyM") that started this long thread:
No, don't sell your Falcon. You can't sell it for any reasonable price,
anyway, so keep it, it may be handy for some nostalgic demoing or gaming
(I too play Willie's Adventures demo sometimes on my Falcon040 and have
been asking the authors to release full versions regularly for last five
years - BTW they refuse for some weird reason).
BUT! If you happen to get some real cheap PC hardware don't
hesitate to buy it (say Athlon 2GHz for $299) and be assured that thanks
to ARAnyM you'll be able to turn that box into FreeMiNT/GEM workstation
that will run most software you are familiar with better than you expected
and that will allow you to do more things easier than you were used to on
the old Falcon.
Petr
Janez Valant
> I have tried to be as technical as possible in this sub-thread started by
> Didier. There wasn't any personal attack from me, no superiority or
> anything like that. I have just tried to explain that while most emulators
> of existing machines try to keep the speed of emulated environment same as
> the original machine, ARAnyM is different - it doesn't emulate any
> existing machine and so it can run as fast as possible :) Thus comparing
> CT60 with ARAnyM on "a PC" is like comparing apples and pears simply
> because the speed of pears is unknown ;-)
But the speed of pear is not unknown. On Aranym page it nicely say, AMD
Athlon 1800+. Voila, fixed speed. And all we said is that 60-80% CPU speed
is not accurate, since its actualy from 4-9%, depending on CT60 speed (60,
66, 72 or 100mhz + different bus speeds). Or CPU only values, which will
differ as well. But u are right in one thing, pear speed is odd incase u
use anything except Linux.. no JIT, probs on Macs etc, altough aranym said
"on any machine" Those are some of probs, which actualy noone want to admit
loudly... And using lowest possible values instead of highest, its little
psychological rochade, to impress ppl. Now i guess the correct ratio in
this case is> 9% on athlon 1800+ vs 5-7% on ct60 66mhz with DSP and 60-80%
without DSP. If u want to correct us and educate us, please do it honestly.
And i repeat, i have NO problem with Aranym. I do have a prob with Aranym
team to be honest. If we say that Aranym is not new Atari, or show ANY
difference in opinion as Aranym team, this happens... Simply no room for
any diference there.. After last burst of expresisons etc in MiNT list, i
simply deleted Aranym from hdd... And on end, calling Aranym virtual
machine, or just Aranym, and/or Milan GEM compatible instead new Atari is
NOTHING bad! I dont mean they are inferior because of that name, its just a
fact. Like pear is pear, and apple is apple. Teste decide which is better
on end.
Joakim H?gberg
> > I think he was refering to that you must first own hardware capable of
> > running linux.
> > IMO a very valid point.
>
> Does that mean that Free software solution for any (and also the cheapest
> available) hardware is still not good enough for the remaining few Atari
> users?
It means that those who haven't yet got an appropriate machine to run
aranym needs to get one in order to benefit from this deal. That is
what I think Lp was suggesting.
> Does it mean that we were expected to actually GIVE AWAY new Athlon
> powered machines with preinstalled ARAnyM/AFROS for _FREE_?
What even gave you that idea?
> Are you guys serious or are you living on another planet?
Please read my reply one more time. I tried to clarify what I think Lp
meant, I don't think I deserve this kind of response.
Regards,
Joakim
Kenneth Medin
> On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 14:43:11 +0000, Kenneth Medin wrote:
>
>>Remember that Linux can run on genuine Atari hardware as well! And, as
>>you actually need TOS to boot Debian m68k things get a bit complicated...
>
>
> This is not true. LILO was developed long time ago.
Hm, does that mean I can get a genuine Linux boot by just instructing
HDDriver to boot from the Linux partion?
On the other hand HDDriver sure is a TOS program, anyway...?
On the third hand (Shiva??) afaIk you can't set videomode for my et4000
from within Linux. So it's best to use bootstrap anyway.
>>Is Linux just an emulator running on top of TOS.
>
>
> you are making it even more confusing than it was :)
Think what would have happend if Atari made computers with Power-PC
processor... :-) emulators all over the place...
>>And now comes the funny part... Aranym is present on Debian m68k so in
>>fact you could perhaps run Aranym on real Atari hardware as well!
>
>
> sure. The source code is even partially prepared for running on m68k based
> machines at full speed of the host CPU (similar to VMware). But there is
> noone working on finishing it. Maybe you could join the team and make
> ARAnyM running on your TT030 at full speed for the NAS?
Cool... I don't think I'm up to the task but actually all this stupid
nonsens about what is an emulator or not makes it tempting to really get
Aranym working on genuine Atari hardware... :-)
>>Aranym is available via APT (Advanced Packaging Tool) in m68k and it
>>installed just fine but exited with errors when I tried to run it...
> what version on what OS? Have you reported an error to Debian BTS? Is
> anybody working on fixing it?
Debian Sarge m68k on the TT. I'm right now doing a dist-upgrade on it
that has been going on for more than 24 hours... First 150 MB data via
APT on nullmodem and since this morning it's truggling hard to unpack
and install. Right now "Unpacking replacement wenglish ...".
>>I would really love to se Aranym running on my TT just for fun... Who
>>knows, it might be usable as JIT should not be needed :-)
>
>
> See above. Everything is possible if interested guys start working on it.
That would be some sort of Falcon emulator where normal tasks would run
at descent speed?
>>It brings the possibility to get a TOS compatible computer without the
>>need to search around for old second hand stuff. Eventually all genuine
>>computers with the Atari label on them will come to a halt.
>
>
> Most folks either don't realize that or are willing to stop using their
> favourite OS at that time.
And lose there old data as well!
--
Kenneth Medin
Henk Robbers
Petr is completely right.
Has there ever been hardware that was free? (please dont mention cellphones)
LP could as well blame all free atari software that you had
to buy a atari computer to run it.
BTW.
I spent a few hours on installing the afros on a laptop
and on a desktop.
I am very happy that I can go on writing for my favourate
platform, even when all my ataris crumble to dust.
--
Groeten; Regards.
Henk Robbers. mailto:h.ro...@chello.nl
http://members.ams.chello.nl/h.robbers/Home.html
Interactive disassembler: TT-Digger; http://digger.atari.org
A Home Cooked teXt editor: AHCX
Petr Stehlik
>> This is not true. LILO was developed long time ago.
>
> Hm, does that mean I can get a genuine Linux boot by just instructing
> HDDriver to boot from the Linux partion?
No, no HDDriver is necessary. LILO boots directly from the boot sector of
your HDD, just like on other (ia32) machines.
> afaIk you can't set videomode for my et4000
> from within Linux. So it's best to use bootstrap anyway.
I agree that bootstrap.ttp is better than LILO but I wanted to point out
that LILO is actually available for Atari machines. I know it was a lot of
work to develop it and it's a bit sad that nobody uses it.
> Think what would have happend if Atari made computers with Power-PC
> processor... :-) emulators all over the place...
very true. But since it would be made by Atari nobody would complain ;-)))
>>>I would really love to se Aranym running on my TT just for fun... Who
>>>knows, it might be usable as JIT should not be needed :-)
> That would be some sort of Falcon emulator where normal tasks would run
> at descent speed?
well, I hate to hear "Falcon emulator" when we talk about aranym but it's
all my fault so I need to cope with that. Anyway, current aranym, if it
worked on TT, would probably give you an emulation of VIDEL and DSP but I
don't think you'd be able to actually run something using those chips at a
decent speed. Access to all hardware registers would have to be emulated
and so any program accessing them often (like e.g. operating system) would
be slow as hell. This is a general problem of all virtual machines, BTW.
That's why I suggest to buy a FAST host machine for ARAnyM :))
Petr
Misha
On 27-Jan-2004, Petr Stehlik <pste...@sophics.cz> wrote:
> BUT! If you happen to get some real cheap PC hardware don't
> hesitate to buy it (say Athlon 2GHz for $299) and be assured that thanks
> to ARAnyM you'll be able to turn that box into FreeMiNT/GEM workstation
> that will run most software you are familiar with better than you expected
> and that will allow you to do more things easier than you were used to on
> the old Falcon.
Bravo Petr !!!
I realy enjoy to use Aranym !!!
Regards Misha !!!
Petr Stehlik
>> CT60 with ARAnyM on "a PC" is like comparing apples and pears simply
>> because the speed of pears is unknown ;-)
>
> But the speed of pear is not unknown. On Aranym page it nicely say,
> AMD
> Athlon 1800+. Voila, fixed speed.
well. When I started working on ARAnyM I had a Duron @ 600. Now I have a
Thunderbird (IIRC, simply an Athlon XP family) @ 2300 and I am looking for
a cheap upgrade to Barton @ 3200 (still Athlon XP family, but running at
400 MHz bus speed). So there is no fixed speed at all. My personal ARAnyM
increases speed every couple of months for a few bucks (I always sell the
previous CPU to somebody else :-).
> is not accurate, since its actualy from 4-9%, depending on CT60
Aha, now I get you. Your point is that CT60 with Falcon's DSP can replay
MP3 with lower CPU load than ARAnyM @ 1800. Well, this is quite possible!
Yes, I don't have a problem with that. Simply because when it's 7% or 9%
the difference is close to none - I remember when the MP3 replay load
dropped under 30% the machine was normally usable and that's the key.
But I admit again that it's perfectly possible for CT60 with DSP to beat
ARAnyM @ 1800 in MP3 replay. I hope you all are happier now :-)
> aranym said "on any machine" Those are some of probs, which actualy
> noone want to admit loudly...
Hehe. The ARAnyM is designed to run everywhere. But _I_ happen to use
linux and so _I_ make it running on Linux (same for Standa and Milan,
BTW). Other guys (like Francois and Stefan) with Mac make it running on
Mac. It also happens to run on Cygwin for Windows, FreeBSD and perhaps on
more systems, but there are no active hackers for these platforms, AFAIK.
BTW, you might be missing the point - this is not commercial software and
it is not sold with a guarantee that it works on any machine - this is an
open source project and volunteers making it running on other platforms
than those the main developers use are very welcome. I repeat - it's
easily possible to make it running on just about anything - but not if
there is no interest and no developer.
Same message I tried to send for all the other open source projects out
there - HighWire, TeraDesk, XaAES, FreeMiNT, [fo]VDI, EasyMiNT,
SpareMiNT and god knows what else is being done for the remaining atarians
for free - they all deserve your attention and interest and a helping
hand. Think about it.
> of highest, its little psychological rochade, to impress ppl.
Yes! I wanted to impress people and I wanted to show the ARAnyM in the
best possible light. I want users to join it and you already know why. But
the numbers aren't fake and I'd love to repeat tests with my current
@2300. And most importantly - the benchmarks are just bunch of numbers.
What's important is the portability, ease of HW upgrade, stability and
generally more modern extensions and peripherals. Simple example: Atari
(erm. GEM compatible desktop) hooked to internet via WiFi PCMCIA card...
> guess the correct ratio in this case is> 9% on athlon 1800+ vs 5-7% on
> ct60 66mhz with DSP and 60-80% without DSP. If u want to correct us and
> educate us, please do it honestly.
I love to repeat for third time that CT60 beats ARAnyM @1800 in MP3
replaying. And I congratulate to the author of the greatly optimized DSP
routines (Didier? You rule man!) since it's his credit.
BTW, Didier also developed sound support for ARAnyM and we're grateful
for that.
> I do have a prob with Aranym team to be honest.
that's perfectly OK. We are just another guys. BTW, the team is sometime
inconsistent in the press releases and everyone of us talks for himself
only - so feel free to name the one you have prob with, we are OK with
that :)
> And on end, calling Aranym virtual machine, or just Aranym, and/or Milan
> GEM compatible instead new Atari is NOTHING bad!
Well, it's actually perfectly right to call ARAnyM a virtual machine. Have
I ever said otherwise?
Ah, I just got it - you want us to remove the "Atari" word and call it
a "GEM compatible machine". Well, you're damn right. The Atari is so long
dead that using their name for a new virtual machine like ARAnyM is was
actually a bad decision from the marking point of view.
Now we can start thinking about renaming the project, right? Atari Running
on Any Machine is wrong - it's definitely not atari, and we can't fulfil
the "any machine" without volunteers so we fail. How about GREMLIN? GEM
running on LINux? (no, it's not a typo - GEMLIN would be a bit dry,
gremlin sounds cooler to me :) LOL
Petr
Petr Stehlik
> The Atari is so long
> dead that using their name for a new virtual machine like ARAnyM is was
> actually a bad decision from the marking point of view.
^^^^^^^
I wanted to say "marketing" but it's too late in night so even re-reading
twice didn't catch that typo. Sorry.
Petr
Petr Stehlik
> I have limited space, limited budget. Already 3 complete systems in one room.
> Plus an O2 not even setup. You really expect EVERYONE to run out and
> buy more boxes with yet another OS they are not familiar with?
No. That wasn't the goal. Current beta versions of ARAnyM are best for
those that already have a non-Atari machine handy. I don't want anyone to
go buying more boxes, sure not. What I say is:
- if your atari computer dies, and you can't get a replacement, ARAnyM can
get data from your harddrive and even allow you continue using it like you
were used to on the real Atari.
- if your atari computer is not fast enough, you're missing RAM,
resolution, harddisk space, network connection or anything else and you
simply decided to buy a PC because you can't get an Atari like computer -
then there is ARAnyM for you that can save you from the windows hell.
This is what I say about current ARAnyM.
And if ARAnyM was ever finished then I could say "OK, go to any shop, buy
any hardware, get this CD and it will install AFROS on it so you'll boot
to your familiar desktop". You know this is the final goal but you still
complain.
>> Does it mean that we were expected to actually GIVE AWAY new Athlon
>> powered machines with preinstalled ARAnyM/AFROS for _FREE_?
>
> That's up to you.
I started collecting money already, don't worry.
>> Are you guys serious or are you living on another planet?
>
> I'd ask the same of you. The "any" in the name is mis-leading as it
> don't run on anything but linux to where I'd deem it useable.
I can just ask you to re-read my other post about this very topic. I
think the subject is "the real situation".
I really enjoy your complaints - it sounds like I owe you something. Like
I sold you ARAnyM, you paid scary money, then unpacked it at home and
found out it didn't work on your *any* machine. Luckily I explain this in
the other post ("the real situation") as well. Please do me a favor and
don't reply here, I'd hate to repeat myself again.
> host system directly, like DVD playback. A killer app to me would be a
> real web browser. If you got time for that, go ahead and amaze me.
We are just a small part of the whole machine that produces
"atari" software for free. If we develop ARAnyM we do that to allow others
develop more applications using the ARAnyM. You know it. I told it so many
times. So I believe our work on ARAnyM actually helps bringing you a real
web browser, even if the help is indirect.
> I would focus more on bug squashing, and making it work on "any" system.
I am glad you volunteer.
> I have macosx and I will not buy a linux box to tinker with an emulator.
I remember your arguments from MiNT list and from here last time we
discussed it. I apologized to you several times already. I really don't
want you to buy a linux box, I swear! :)
> Hatari works, they must have a mac guru in that camp.
And? Should I hire him?
Oh well. How long will it take you to understand the situation.
Petr
Joakim H?gberg
> > I think he was refering to that you must first own hardware capable of
> > running linux. Not questioning whether or not the distribution of
> > related host OS, emulating layer, the Atari OS FreeMiNT, etc are free
> > or not.
> Has there ever been hardware that was free? (please dont mention cellphones)
Indeed not, and I actually think that was the point here really.
I can understand this, since I have had the same thought myself, that
the system does have costs, even if the software is completely free.
Not trying to start a war here, just adding my 2 cents.
/Joakim
Petr Stehlik
>> And if ARAnyM was ever finished then I could say "OK, go to any shop,
>> buy any hardware, get this CD and it will install AFROS on it so you'll
>> boot to your familiar desktop". You know this is the final goal but you
>> still complain.
>
> I complain because your website lumps all machines and current clones
> together as useless. I'm sorry but that is how it comes off and I am
> not the only one that interprets it that way.
>
> Then people come here pushing this like I'm some how missing out cause I
> choose to use older Atari hardware. That's almost offensive.
I think you already suggested me in a private mail to reformulate the
title page of aranym website. I agree and will do it, I promise (feel free
to remind me in a week if it's not changed, I am very busy with my regular
job these days but I'll try to do something over the weekend).
>>> I would focus more on bug squashing, and making it work on "any"
>>> system.
>> I am glad you volunteer.
> That was a suggestion, I was not volunteering.
My mailbox is full of suggestions. I myself create suggestions for ARAnyM,
too. I even put some of my own suggestions to the TODO file. Note that
ARAnyM does not make any money, we even pay for it by our time, so you can
keep suggesting but can't expect anything. Same goes for other projects.
That's why I called for an active support and help for all free projects
on our platform.
> I pointed a friend to the site, who don't even have any Atari's and said
> simply, go here and come back and give me your impression. You know
> what, he came back saying the site implies to much, well he actually
> used the word "lies".
If somebody is not familiar with the situation in the "Atari" world it's
hard for them to understand.
>>> Hatari works, they must have a mac guru in that camp.
>> And? Should I hire him?
> Maybe ask him for some help?
Hell! Why should _I_ ask him for some help? I don't own Mac! I think that
_you_ should ask him for some help, or basically those that want ARAnyM
running on Mac should do that. Do you get it? I don't owe you ARAnyM for
Mac OS X, remember that please.
BTW, we have at least three guys working actively on the Mac OS X version
of ARAnyM now. Actually ARAnyM always worked there but the state of the
build tools don't allow easy building of it, it seems to me (judging from
the aranym-dev mailing list).
>> Oh well. How long will it take you to understand the situation.
>
> I understand the situation completely.
No, you don't. This is not about words "emulator" vs "virtual machine",
"Atari" vs "TOS" vs "GEM". This is about Free software in general. You ask
the authors to do something they have neither resources nor direct
interest in, you blame them for unfulfilled promises but you're just
sitting there. This does not work in Free software world, I am afraid.
> Needless to say, I don't deem it worthless and realize it can be or is
> used to benefit the platform. I however won't view it as TOS hardware
> or the future, or if it is the future, in it's present form it's still
> an emulator to me. So every time someone comes here trying to pass it
> off as TOS hardware you can expect this sort of response from various
> people.
I am OK with people that call it Emulator. I am OK with guys that don't
want to run it. But I hate to hear that it's our fault that ARAnyM does
not run on your machine and that we failed completely since "ANY" does not
work. BTW, have you tried running ARAnyM on Linux for Mac? Just asking,
not suggesting anything...
Also, I explained many times very clearly why ARAnyM runs on top of
another kernel instead of driving the hardware by its own. It's all about
the amount of work required to get it running and to support the broad
range of available hardware. Those that blame us for using an underlying
kernel and its HW drivers must be complete ignorants - either in technical
computer background or in listening to what others say in discussion, or
even in both.
Petr
Janez Valant
> Aha, now I get you. Your point is that CT60 with Falcon's DSP can replay
> MP3 with lower CPU load than ARAnyM @ 1800. Well, this is quite possible!
> Yes, I don't have a problem with that. Simply because when it's 7% or 9%
> the difference is close to none - I remember when the MP3 replay load
> dropped under 30% the machine was normally usable and that's the key.
>
> But I admit again that it's perfectly possible for CT60 with DSP to beat
> ARAnyM @ 1800 in MP3 replay. I hope you all are happier now :-)
Its not a matter of u admitting that, i dont wanna now impose mine
superiority or that im absolute right thingie... As i already said, id only
wish, that when u state Aranym's specs on XXX CPU, as counter part u can
notice that Falcon can do some tasks quite satisfactory. V may now see that
not only I have probs with Aranym team (not u personaly) attitude toward
older Ataris and NEW hardware projects on them. Aranym team member, in
public, said some time ago, CT60 is useless project, so is ACP since Aranym
is so much better and faster... and so on, i explained myself in mail...
>> of highest, its little psychological rochade, to impress ppl.
>
> Yes! I wanted to impress people and I wanted to show the ARAnyM in the
> best possible light. I want users to join it and you already know why. But
> the numbers aren't fake and I'd love to repeat tests with my current
> @2300. And most importantly - the benchmarks are just bunch of numbers.
> What's important is the portability, ease of HW upgrade, stability and
> generally more modern extensions and peripherals. Simple example: Atari
> (erm. GEM compatible desktop) hooked to internet via WiFi PCMCIA card...
What all that helps us, if no new software? As i said, when any of real
Atari machines were introduced, new software emerged... in 2003, ACE was
created, and its breakthru in Atari world, we didnt have similar software
so far, and again, it was done on Falcon. Same as Papyurs etc, no need to
list those, were started etc on TT, ST, Falcon... When Hades emerged, and
Milan emerged what realy new things we got? Apart from Startrack i realy
dont see something new... We got speed etc with them, but apps used were
the same... CT60 is not as useless as Aranym team would like to show, and
ACP for me, is interesting because it will be diferent... well if it
happens, of course. Same as all living beigns need rich and various genetic
pool, so we do as well.. Same as for some pro user Aranym may make a lot
of diference wihth Calamus for example. Amd i realy welcome that and im
glad he has that choice.. On other hand id like same freedom with choosing
slower, older, dead machine, and its new addition if that suits me.. There
Aranym ppl fails miserably...
> Ah, I just got it - you want us to remove the "Atari" word and call it
> a "GEM compatible machine". Well, you're damn right. The Atari is so long
> dead that using their name for a new virtual machine like ARAnyM is was
> actually a bad decision from the marking point of view.
>
> Now we can start thinking about renaming the project, right? Atari Running
> on Any Machine is wrong - it's definitely not atari, and we can't fulfil
> the "any machine" without volunteers so we fail. How about GREMLIN? GEM
> running on LINux? (no, it's not a typo - GEMLIN would be a bit dry,
> gremlin sounds cooler to me :) LOL
Well u see, patronising again. I dont think Atari need to be removed from
name actualy. Rather remove "ONLY" from statements like ONLY future, ONLY
light, or word USELESS when refering to non Aranym.... I doubt
developers of new hardware or we buyers are particulary happy with that,
when we mention that, this thread happens....
Janez
Henk Robbers
Yeah, but I dont see any argument.
Existing atari software already runs at maximum speed on genuine atari
hardware. If you are satisfied, you dont need aranym.
If you want more you have to buy.
And then you have free software available.
If you dont have atari hardware anymore, you also have to buy
if you want to continue atari work. You cant buy atari anymore,
so you buy cheap PC and run aranym for free.
I dont see any contra indication.
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 14:43:11 GMT
Hi Kenneth,
>Remember that Linux can run on genuine Atari hardware as well!
No, not really. I think the correct expression is "crawl slowly forward".
>> But tell me this: what new Aranym brings to scene, apart from speed?
>
>It brings the possibility to get a TOS compatible computer without the
>need to search around for old second hand stuff. Eventually all genuine
>computers with the Atari label on them will come to a halt. At that time
>maybe it will be possible to run Aranym on an IBM compatible emulator or
>other kind of virtual machine, who knows...
"a TOS compatible computer" ??
Aranym is just another emulator, forget all the hype that's been created and
is surrounding it, at the end of the day you're running Atari programs on a
PC. There's nothing new under the sun really... people are doing this sort
of thing since 1994.
>This is all true but the distinction between hardware and software is not
>at all clear any more! Just think of CT60 that is actually running on
>"programmable hardware" whatever that means...
This could be food for a very long thread, but tell me what would you
prefer: a real Rolex, or a fake one ? I know what I would prefer ;-)
Cheers from Belgium
Dennis
--
____ ____ ____
/ __ \ / __ \ / __ \
/ / / / / / / / / /_/ /
/ / / / / / / / / ____/
/ /_/ / / /_/ / / /
/_____/ /_____/ /_/ Translations
der...@cix.co.uk
dennis....@gmx.net
xla...@cix.co.compulink.co.uk
http://ddp.atari.org
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 16:35:05 GMT
Hi Micha,
>Everyone who run Atari software,need :speed,high color graphics,16bit
>sounds network,and with Aranym you have everything !!!Also invest in one
>Aranym system is not expensive !!! (AMD 2600+ for example )
Just like Janez, I'm not everyone either.
You obviously like Aranym on your Linux powered PC, well, good for you. But
I don't share your views at all. I'm an emulator-user also, next to the Mac
is my trusty TT, do you know why? Simple, to run *all* the stuff which the
emulator can't cope with....
Suggesting here of all places to invest in a PC simply put is beyond words,
I don't give a toss how cheap it is, even if it was offered free to me I
wouldn't touch it with a crowbar. A PC stands for everything I dislike in
the computing world, and no, Linux powering it doesn't make one single bit
of difference, it's just as bloated as Windows.
>and with Aranym you have everything
Everything is quite a lot Micha, I'm not going to list the things which you
ain't got, because it would be a very long list. And since people here even
start making noice about an oversized sig...
But let's put it this way; you are able to run a pretty nice bunch of apps
under your emulator, if these are all you care about, then you are indeed a
happy emulator user. If on the other hand you wanna run things which don't
fit in that "nice bunch" category you've got a problem, a problem which can
only be solved by original hardware. But then I presume like most emulator
users you disregard this "little" issue...
Adam Klobukowski
> From: "Kenneth Medin" <kenn...@tripnet.se>
>>Remember that Linux can run on genuine Atari hardware as well!
>
> No, not really. I think the correct expression is "crawl slowly forward".
In fact Linux on Ataris is not so slow at all. Some things seem faster than
under other OSes.
>>This is all true but the distinction between hardware and software is not
>>at all clear any more! Just think of CT60 that is actually running on
>>"programmable hardware" whatever that means...
>
> This could be food for a very long thread, but tell me what would you
> prefer: a real Rolex, or a fake one ? I know what I would prefer ;-)
Well, if the fake Rolex would run much much faster then a real one ;)
--
Semper Fidelis
Adam Klobukowski
at...@gabo.pl
o...@atari-rules.org
Yeah, during work hours, and I could replace its osc with a much, much
slower one during my spare time ;-)
>
>
--
Regards,
Odd Skancke - <ozk AT atari DOT org> - http://assemsoft.atari.org
To reply, remove -RULES from the Reply-To: address.
Joakim H?gberg
> And then you have free software available.
> If you dont have atari hardware anymore, you also have to buy
> if you want to continue atari work. You cant buy atari anymore,
> so you buy cheap PC and run aranym for free.
Yes, that is a possibility.
And who knows, maybe there might be TOS compatible hardware produced
in the future? If new hardware will be produced (Coldfire based or
other, who knows), it would be likely to run FreeMiNT, thus also being
free in the same sense as ARAnyM is free :)
Regards,
Joakim
Misha
On 28-Jan-2004, Dennis Vermeire <dennis....@gmx.net> wrote:
> But let's put it this way; you are able to run a pretty nice bunch of apps
>
> under your emulator, if these are all you care about, then you are indeed
> a
> happy emulator user. If on the other hand you wanna run things which don't
> fit in that "nice bunch" category you've got a problem, a problem which
> can
> only be solved by original hardware. But then I presume like most emulator
> users you disregard this "little" issue...
Yeah !! But I have Falcon and STE (real) and I like it so much !!!
On the other side I like Aranym because it works well !!!
Everything is simple,use what you want and what you like !!!
Some people are happy with ZX Spectrum !!! ;)
Regards Misha !!!
Petr Stehlik
> trying to help you guys with your image. You ask why after 3 years
> people still don't accept this, so I replied to that. I am glad we can
> have a civil chat like this.
Me too. And I am thankful for the suggestions.
> If you want bench marks for certain tasks, like making a kernel, you
> only need ask. If I have the time I would help, and it would make the
> site more accurate.
OK, this is a good idea. The FreeMiNT 1.16 is still evolving but the
source code is not likely to grow much so perhaps we could measure that
one. The 1.15.12 would be a safe bet but who would be recompiling such an
old version? :)
>> BTW, we have at least three guys working actively on the Mac OS X
>> version of ARAnyM now. Actually ARAnyM always worked there but the
>> state of the build tools don't allow easy building of it, it seems to
>> me (judging from the aranym-dev mailing list).
>
> We can only hope they succeed then. Unfortunately I cannot help even
> though I have an up to date system with xcode
From what I read in the mailing list I feel like it's real hard to compile
something on macosx. There is a project builder, and now the xcode, but
paths are incorrect, and things are missing... It's unfortunate to watch
the guys trying to just produce a binary without being able to help
them (the source code is compilable, there is no problem, only the process
of actually making the final binary is not done) and receiving complaints
in discussions like this one that we run on linux only. I don't like
feeling helpless, you know.
>> interest in, you blame them for unfulfilled promises but you're just
>> sitting there. This does not work in Free software world, I am afraid.
>
> Ok, maybe my original expectation was to high. I have no skill in that
> area so I can only sit and wait.
I believe you can do much more than just sit and wait. I am talking about
one thing: if something does not work in a free project, try to support
the authors in any way so it starts working. I think I could ask google
for "how to support free software if I am not programmer" but instead I'd
give you some examples selected specially for the Atari (erm. TOS
compatible) world:
Simple example: instead of writing to an unrelated web list discussion
"MiNT sucks, MagiC is so much faster" it's IMHO way better to ask in the
MiNT mailing list: "guys, I like MiNT but can't use it on my machine cause
it's too slow, can you help me make it running faster?"
Another example: instead of trying to find out why CAB 2.8 has a problem
with bookmarks on VFAT partitions and fixing it by downgrading to CAB 2.7
I would think that joining the HighWire mailing list or their web forum
and telling them "guys, HighWire rocks, I am missing this last feature XXX
to abandon the unsupported and dead CAB and replace it with your HighWire"
would be a much better thing.
And I could go on with the examples but I am sure you know what I mean.
The key is to realize what has CAB and MagiC in common, and what's is
in common for FreeMiNT and HighWire. As soon as you find the pattern you
can go on for all the software you like to use.
> I am really happy with macosx, and I really don't want to change it over
> or dual boot. It's a valid question, no harm asking that.
I know we promised "Any Machine" without further restrictions but even
now it is possible to run ARAnyM on more hardware than some of readers
here think - thanks to the linux kernel running on almost any hardware..
Thus I could be replying "install linux on your mac" to
the "aranym doesn't run on mac" complaint but I won't do that as Stefan
and others are working on the native mac osx port of aranym.
Actually ARAnyM is much more relying on the SDL than on the underlying
kernel itself. So perhaps it would be much more accurate to say that
aranym runs on the following platforms:
http://www.libsdl.org/intro/whatplatforms.html
Although this page is obsolete since it doesn't list Patrice's work on SDL
for Atari (or TOS hardware? Or MiNT hardware.. never know how to define it
properly ;-)
> Anyway the only other comment I wish to make is that you referred to the
> mintlist discussion as "complaints". That I disagree with greatly.
It was a mixture at first (caused by different expectations, wrong
understanding due to my aranym.sf.net page, etc) but later there were
mostly valid replies with some very good points (I had a long private
discussion with Frank himself which helped me to understand some pretty
important things).
> realize some of them were not as you had hoped, but still they were
> requested after all. ;-)
And were helpful, thanks. Each reaction helps us in defining the
direction of further aranym development (just please note that while
positive reactions speed the development up the negative ones cause
developers to abandon the project completely - but I explained it earlier
that free projects live from the interest and support of their users).
Petr
Petr Stehlik
>> OK, this is a good idea. The FreeMiNT 1.16 is still evolving but the
>> source code is not likely to grow much so perhaps we could measure that
>> one. The 1.15.12 would be a safe bet but who would be recompiling such an
>> old version? :)
>
> I have not used that for ages. Don't even have a kernel suitable for
> speed testing on the Hades or TT. The newer kernel with the integrated
> socket stuff is way faster. I'm with you I don't see a point in
> using that older one.
I thought we were going to "time make" (i.e. measure the time needed for
a kernel recompile) and for that a standard source file archive would be
a good thing. You know, few years ago people liked to tell "I can compile
Linux kernel in less than two hours" and it was kind of a widely used
benchmark. But as the kernel grew in size over time it became impossible
to compare the results. Same thing could happen with the CVS
version of FreeMiNT 1.16alpha - that's what I was talking about. But it's
not likely to grow much in short time (well, unless the AES and VDI get
integrated suddenly ;-).
> I surfed the archive, and I see what you mean.
Yesterday I added a complete support for Project Builder that was
sent to me by Carlo (never heard of him before - he just appeared and
sent it - a nice surprise after months or even years of darwin
semi-support). Somebody must try it out if it really produces a working
binary or not.
>> I believe you can do much more than just sit and wait. I am talking
>> about one thing: if something does not work in a free project, try to
>> support the authors in any way so it starts working.
> All good points.
thanks.
> There are *some* others here that could benefit from that advise as well. ;-)
Frankly, in last couple mails when I was writing "you" I didn't mean you
personally but all the Atari/TOS_GEM_compatible/virtual_machine/emulator
users that wish to see new or improved applications.
Petr
Petr Stehlik
> What I meant was I can't produce compile times for the old kernel. I don't
> want to sync my local CVS dir with the old kernel sources
My point was that 1.15.12 is released as tar ball and so everybody could
have the exactly same set of source files :)
> I can produce compile times for the latest CVS kernel thought.
go ahead, I already posted my numbers for the 1.16a, but can't see them in
csast yet so I better repost: 125 seconds for full make 040 (106 user, 16
sys).
Petr
Petr Stehlik
> I thought we were going to "time make" (i.e. measure the time needed for
> a kernel recompile)
So I did just that: CVS version of FreeMiNT 1.16alpha:
rm -rf .compile_040 && time make 040
The resulting real time is 2:05 (i.e. 125 seconds), user time 106 seconds,
system time 16 seconds. This is ARAnyM @ XP 2200+
My Afterburner is currently not plugged anywhere so I can't test the
compiling on it. Perhaps somebody with say CT60 could add their number
here.
Petr
Petr Stehlik
>> go ahead, I already posted my numbers for the 1.16a, but can't see them in
>> csast yet so I better repost: 125 seconds for full make 040 (106 user, 16
>> sys).
>
> Is there a unix tool to help time it? If so that would be more accurate
> perhaps than me using a stop watch.
it sure is, please see my other post with the exact command line I used.
Or I better repost it here again:
cd freemint/sys
rm -rf .compile_040 && time make 040
Petr
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 23:39:58 GMT
Hi Misha,
>Yeah !! But I have Falcon and STE (real) and I like it so much !!!
>On the other side I like Aranym because it works well !!!
>Everything is simple,use what you want and what you like !!!
I don't doubt for one minute that it works well, but this good news show
is rather biased... tell me, in what way that for example Calamus, Tempus,
Papyrus, Texel, Phoenix etc run better under Arynym then under MagiC-PC?
>Everything is simple,use what you want and what you like !!!
Well, that's a different tune then the one you've been playing here last
week...
>Some people are happy with ZX Spectrum !!! ;)
Yes sure, but then I know people who don't have a computer and they
manage somehow to be happy as well...
Petr Stehlik
>> cd freemint/sys
>> rm -rf .compile_040 && time make 040
>
> 571.85user 75.96system 10:54.00elapsed 99%CPU (0avgtext+0avgdata
> 0maxresident)k 0inputs+0outputs (0major+0minor)pagefaults 0swaps
> 16:21:40 Fri Jan 30 Hades060 root
First thing, your 'time' is newer than mine as it shows 2 lines more
of info :) (and I use latest EasyMiNT, IIRC).
Then, the Kronos 1.50 synthetic benchmarks were really not reflecting the
real speed difference, it seems. While Kronos showed 21xfaster CPU,
15xfaster memory and 70xfaster disk (aranym@1700+ to hades60), in real
application aranym@2200+ is just 5xfaster than hades60. So I am glad we
undertook this as it is another step to a demything (just made up a new
english word :) the aranym.
Thanks.
Petr
Petr Stehlik
> This particular task is rather disk intensive. I have a brand new HD
> with a lot better access time currently not installed. I ran the test
> from a rather old slower drive.
We can redo the test anytime later. I were compiling on HostFS so I am
interested in results on real disk (image). Some guys say the HostFS is
actually slower than mint's ext2.
> If you really want a compile time with the older kernel I suppose I
> could depack it and time it, then remove it. The new kernel is in
> constant dev and the compile time will vary, which I think is what you
> were eluding to.
Yes, that's what I was talking about all the time but as long as we do the
test with CVS updated the same week the results should be perfectly
comparable. We don't want to compile something useless, do we? :-)
Petr
Misha
On 31-Jan-2004, Dennis Vermeire <dennis....@gmx.net> wrote:
> I don't doubt for one minute that it works well, but this good news show
> is rather biased... tell me, in what way that for example Calamus, Tempus,
> Papyrus, Texel, Phoenix etc run better under Arynym then under MagiC-PC?
I didn't speak about Magic PC ,but please Aranym is free and Magic not !!!
(You need Magic+NVDI+WIndows) you know.......;)
> Well, that's a different tune then the one you've been playing here last
> week...
I change only style,because some people are very sensitive
maybe they have family connection with Sam Tramiel etc....:))
> Yes sure, but then I know people who don't have a computer and they
> manage somehow to be happy as well...
Yeah that's true !!!
Regards,Misha
Chris Wilkinson
I can use Aranym on my Linux system, and its about 110 times faster for
GEM apps (with AthlonXP 2500+) than the original Falcon is, according to
GEMbench. But I still use my Falcon because MIDI and other stuff work. I
have trouble with MIDI on linux, so I use the Falcon to play MIDI and
let my Linux system take care of recording multitrack music (24 track
24-bit 96kHz). That way I get the best of both platforms, rather than
struggling to get MIDI working in linux (which is awkward to say the
least!)...
Oh, and I play Spectrum games on my linux emulator (Alien 8, Sabre Wulf,
Jet Set Willy, Underwurlde, and all the old faves!). Those games to me
are more enjoyable than Unreal Tournament 2003, and Return To Castle
Wolfenstein, which I play the linux versions of...
--
Kind regards,
Chris Wilkinson, Christchurch, New Zealand.
Remove spamblocker to send replies direct to my email...
Jean-Luc
news: 2004012518...@du3.maus.de...
> >nicely. The only thing i use PC for and not Atari are newsgroups infact.
> >No realy good reader for news, and i dont like pine for newsgroups. Knews
is
> >nice, but have issues with sending posts...
>
> You should try CAT (freeware) as your newsreader. To be honest CAT was the
> main reason why I stayed with my ATARI during the hard years.
> So today I am using my ATARIs again for mainly every task not only
> newsreading. :-)
>
Hello Frank,
I discovered that I sent the following directly to you instead of the
group - sorry.
I repost here, correctly adressed to the group :
I downloaded CAT, In2Cat and CATputz, installede and configured the
whole, but couldn't get it to retrieve anything so far.
The group list remains desperately empty, though I filled all the fields
correctly.
My Falcon is connects ADSL via EherNec, and I use MyMail with no
problem.
Did I miss something ?
Could you please help me ? or someone else in this group ?
Thanks in advance,
J.-Luc
Who'd like to use his FalCT60 again for the NGs, instead of this boring OE
;-)
--
«From» est une adresses anti-spam. Pour me répondre, lire mon
adresse en zigzagant dans la boîte ci-dessous (fonte fixe, svp).
-=oOo=-
"From" is an anti-spam adress. If you wish to contact me, read
my adress zigzaging in the box below (non-prop font, please).
+----------------------------+
|J - . c @ a . |
| e n L c C c o i w n d o f |
| a u e l a o r|
+----------------------------+
Ekkehard Flessa
JL>I downloaded CAT, In2Cat and CATputz, installede and configured the
JL>whole, but couldn't get it to retrieve anything so far. The group list
JL>remains desperately empty, though I filled all the fields correctly.
Are you sure? Did you read and follow my brief english install manual from
Dimitri Junker's site?
(http://www.dimitri-junker.de/software/cat/Cat_Engl/cat_engl.html)
JL>My Falcon is connects ADSL via EherNec, and I use MyMail with no
JL>problem.
Which Stack? STinG, MagiCNet or MiNT-Net? In any case, the internal buffer of
STinG or GlueSTiK has to be set to at least 120kB (ALLOCMEM-line in
default.cfg).
JL>Did I miss something ?
I guess so, as fo me it's working :-)
JL>Could you please help me ? or someone else in this group ?
I'll try my best :-)
The first thing is: Did you call In2Cat by selecting the menu entry
"swap/execute terminal progr." (Tausch/zum Terminalprogramm) in Cat? In2Cat
should open it's window then, and state some "connecting to host" and
associated "receiving data" messages. If it does, and fails somewhere, there
should be evidence in the in2cat.log file as of where the problem is.
The second thing is: Is request of info files (like the grouplist) enabled?
Check the "swap" (Tausch) menu entry "configure infile..." (Infile
konfigurieren), and make sure the first entry "request info-files" (Infodateien
anfordern) is active. If it is, try disabling it, quit this dialogue with okay,
re-enter, enable it, and save settings. Try getting the grouplist again.
If this fails, post the in2cat.log and the infile.txt for further analysis.
With best regards
Ekkehard
Jean-Luc
news: 200402072...@wun.maus.de...
> Hallo Jean-Luc!
Hello Ekkehard,
>
> > [...]
>
> Are you sure? Did you read and follow my brief english install manual from
> Dimitri Junker's site?
I didn't, you're right.
Now that I did, I could retrieve the groups list, I selected the ones I
wanted to read, but the groups list (Options / Groups) remains empty except
an entry named Private.
If I understood correctly, the selected groups must become checked, but they
remain crossed instead. How do I get the groups actived ?
>
>
> Which Stack? STinG, MagiCNet or MiNT-Net? In any case, the internal buffer
of
> STinG or GlueSTiK has to be set to at least 120kB (ALLOCMEM-line in
> default.cfg).
I use STinG, and the Allocmem is set to 128k - I think it would be enough,
wouldn't it ?
>
>
> JL>Did I miss something ?
>
> I guess so, as fo me it's working :-)
>
>
> JL>Could you please help me ? or someone else in this group ?
>
> I'll try my best :-)
>
> In2Cat should open it's window then, and state some "connecting to host"
and
> associated "receiving data" messages.
Done - correct.
>
> The second thing is: Is request of info files (like the grouplist)
enabled?
It is - and I could retrieve the groups list. What's next ?
J.-Luc
Ekkehard Flessa
JL>Now that I did, I could retrieve the groups list, I selected the ones
JL>I wanted to read, but the groups list (Options / Groups) remains empty
JL>except an entry named Private.
This list will be filled only once messages have arrived. The group named
Private is for mail and always there.
JL>If I understood correctly, the selected groups must become checked,
JL>but they remain crossed instead. How do I get the groups actived ?
That's okay, the plus sign indicates that the selection process is under way.
JL>I use STinG, and the Allocmem is set to 128k - I think it would be
JL>enough, wouldn't it ?
Yes, this should be sufficient.
JL>It is - and I could retrieve the groups list. What's next ?
There might be some issue with in2cat's internal group list. File
$\database\in2grup.inf. For me, it failed to init this file properly on the
first run. It should look like this:
#YGB
+de.comp.sys.atari 3493
+fido.ger.atari 411
+ger.atari 1021
+z-netz.rechner.atari.allgemein 1131
+z-netz.rechner.atari.hardware 966
+de.comm.software.mozilla.browser 15908
+de.comm.software.mozilla.misc 10617
+netscape.public.mozilla.unix 9985
+netscape.public.mozilla.calendar 6037
These are the groups in2cat will receive messages from, with the message number
it received last. Quit Cat, edit this file to contain the group names you
selected, add some really high number (65500 or so), and perform a swap. Then,
check the in2cat.log file, where in2cat will indicate the actual latest message
number for each newsgroup. Take that number (minus 50 to retrieve the latest 50
messages, if you like), and insert it at the appropriate line in the above
file. After that, everything should be okay, and in2cat should work perfectly
now.
mit freundlichem Gruß aus Bubenreuth
Ekkehard