USPA Prompts Virginia Liability Action (01/22/04)
D3331
At USPA’s urging, a bill has been introduced to the Virginia General Assembly
that would limit the liability of drop zones and their staff. House Bill 504
would designate skydiving as an “inherently dangerous” activity, which
should deter lawsuits against skydiving schools, clubs, and centers, as well as
their instructors and staff. At the appropriate time, USPA may suggest that
Virginia skydivers contact their state representatives to voice their opinions.
USPA’s bill is in concert with larger efforts by lawmakers to enact tort
reform in the Commonwealth of Virginia.
ynotssor
news:20040127183236...@mb-m29.aol.com
It seems like the idea of tort reform would be better served by a law which
addresses and supports the validity of the waiver, rather than stating the
obvious "inherently dangerous" label.
One would think that such a label by law would make any sort of insurance
coverage for either liability or personal injury much more difficult and
expensive to get, if it would even be possible.
tony
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LORD OF THE SKY
Steve,
can you provide a link or a copy of the actual bill before the Va
legislature?
"Treetop" a.k.a. LORD OF THE SKY
LORD OF THE SKY
"ynotssor" <"ynotssor"> wrote in message
news:40171...@corp.newsgroups.com...
> "D3331" <d3...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040127183236...@mb-m29.aol.com
>
> > (from the USPA web site) http://www.uspa.org/
> > At USPA's urging, a bill has been introduced to the Virginia General
> > Assembly that would limit the liability of drop zones and their
> > staff. House Bill 504 would designate skydiving as an "inherently
> > dangerous" activity, which
> > should deter lawsuits against skydiving schools, clubs, and centers,
> > as well as their instructors and staff. At the appropriate time, USPA
> > may suggest that Virginia skydivers contact their state
> > representatives to voice their opinions. USPA's bill is in concert
> > with larger efforts by lawmakers to enact tort reform in the
> > Commonwealth of Virginia.
>
> It seems like the idea of tort reform would be better served by a law
which
> addresses and supports the validity of the waiver, rather than stating the
> obvious "inherently dangerous" label.
>
> One would think that such a label by law would make any sort of insurance
> coverage for either liability or personal injury much more difficult and
> expensive to get, if it would even be possible.
Good point , Tony.
Something else which has probably not even been considered ,
The bill more than likely won't prohibit lawsuits claiming * gross
negligence* by the training staff or center.
And as we all know, it's not the validity of the lawsuit, but rather
the time and money necessary to defend against it which pulls down so many
in the skydiving "industry".
So.. this bill in Va. benefits the fun jumper how?.. anybody?
Seems to me it may have benefits for the DZO ,but more than likely
not,lawyers will continue to sue DZO's under the "gross negligence " clause.
Chris Martin
> > coverage for either liability or personal injury much more difficult and
> > expensive to get, if it would even be possible.
>
> Good point , Tony.
> Something else which has probably not even been considered ,
> The bill more than likely won't prohibit lawsuits claiming * gross
> negligence* by the training staff or center.
the time and money necessary to defend against it which pulls down so many
in the skydiving "industry".
Rev Jim
Close. It's bill 584.
Here:
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?041+ful+HB584
I'm reading it more closely now.
Rev Jim
Rev Jim
Right off the top of the bill:
"A BILL to amend the Code of Virginia by adding a section numbered
8.01-226.8, relating to immunity for skydive operators and professionals."
Doesn't sound like a fun jumper bill to me.
MO SKYPIGS
>Assembly
>> that would limit the liability of drop zones and their staff. House Bill
>504
>> would designate skydiving as an "inherently dangerous" activity, which
>> should deter lawsuits against skydiving schools, clubs, and centers, as
>well as
>> their instructors and staff. At the appropriate time, USPA may suggest
>that
>> Virginia skydivers contact their state representatives to voice their
>opinions.
>> USPA's bill is in concert with larger efforts by lawmakers to enact tort
>> reform in the Commonwealth of Virginia.
>
>Right off the top of the bill:
>"A BILL to amend the Code of Virginia by adding a section numbered
>8.01-226.8, relating to immunity for skydive operators and professionals."
>
>Doesn't sound like a fun jumper bill to me.
HUMMMMM! Let me think? This bill reduces risk or liability to DZO's and working
staff (part time fun jumpers or fun jumpers paying for their jumps by
coaching). As I read the proposed bill it will support the waiver and make it
stronger when presented to a judge for consideration of a possible court trial.
This reduces risk to the DZO and can lowers his operating cost, which allows
him to provide more services and larger or better aircraft to his clients, or
helps hold down the possible increase of lift ticket costs with this possible
reduction of cost or risk.
But it "Doesn't sound like a fun jumper bill to me"? Glade I didn't hire you to
make any business decisions for my DZ.
Like it or not, In todays DZ operation environment, ANY reduction of possible
risk, or liabilty, benefits "ALL" jumpers!
Tom Dolphin, D6919
skydiving rec
LORD OF THE SKY
"MO SKYPIGS" <mosk...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040128141206...@mb-m12.aol.com...
> >Doesn't sound like a fun jumper bill to me.
>
> HUMMMMM! Let me think? This bill reduces risk or liability to DZO's and
working
> staff (part time fun jumpers or fun jumpers paying for their jumps by
> coaching).
Uhm ..Pig
the generally accepted definition of "fun jumper " does not include those
who profit monetarily from the sport.
Now before you get all huffy and pissy, let me tell you how this bill
came about .
See Sky Pig, at the last BOD meeting ,DZO Larry Pennington(and I hope I
spelled that correctly), had placed on the Group Member committee agenda a
discussion of the merits of hiring a lobbyist to attempt to bring before the
Virginia legislatior , a bill which would designate skydiving as an extreme
sport ,as is skiing , and thus make skydiving operators more immune to
liability lawsuits.
Sounds like a good idea, doesn't it?
I thought it was also and Larry should be patted on the back for his
great idea which could potentialy save DZOs across America "boat loads" of
cash!
The thing is that Larry's idea was going to cost about $15,000.00 to
implement and there are no guarantees that the Va legislator will even pass
the bill or that if passed the governor would sign it.
So here we are in the Group Member Committee meeting.
Larry has this great idea to save DZOs bocoodles of dollars , but the idea
needs funding.
Tell me , Sky pig, from what funds do you think the group member
committee first thought to finance this gamble?
Do you think they proposed to raise Group Member dues the $50.00 per
Group Member this Group Member benefiting action would cost?
If you do you are a fool!
I was there !
Infact I was the only Individual Member there who was neither a BOD
member or a GM.
No , the Group Members never considered *anteing* up to fund this action
which could in the long run save their businesses thousands or even millions
of dollars, no, their thought was to increase the Individual Members dues to
pay for this gamble.
Not to blow my own horn or anything (Cue the "Treetop Trumpeteers"!!!)
But Individual member dues would have been the way they financed their
lobbying efforts if no *watchdog* was on their ass.
Sure I could see that Larry was pissed when I spoke up, and I noticed that
he is a fuckin' big guy!
So I was glad that we compromised at that meeting,(kudos again to Jess
Rodriques , the most fair minded man I have ever met) and given that we all
believed the lobbying effort to be worthwhile , we decided to request the
BOD approve the lobbying effort and fund it with monies from the Airport
Access Defence fund.
Now you know the rest of the story.
"Treetop" the man who saved each Individual Member about fifty
cent.a.k.a. LORD OF THE SKY
Airman1270
> ...DZO Larry Pennington(and I hope I spelled that correctly)...
Yes, Tree, I believe you did: L-A-R-R-Y. By the way, I can't help
noticing the dearth of misspellings & grammatical errors in your
posts. We're about the same age, and must have had similar education
experiences, I.E. heavy on the basic stuff such as math, spelling,
grammar, etc., instead of two weeks studying evolution, six weeks on
drug education (I'm talking classroom lessons here), frequent mindless
assemblies & programs gushing over other cultures, regular sessions
with "counselors" talking about our feelings, 2nd grade homework
assignments which emphasize coloring skills, etc. And, of course, we
were not trained to accept random drug "sweeps", locker searches,
automobile searches, and constatnt police scrutiny ("school resource
officers") as a normal part of life in a "free" country.
God bless home schoolers!
Long live Dodge Ball & spelling bees!
Jon
A-9459
FL #28
Gary Peek
At USPA BOD meetings (and at other times I recall) I often
hear a statement used by BOD members and others present.
"What is good for drop zones is good for skydivers".
(I take this to mean individual USPA members and other skydivers
not neccesarily involved in the business of skydiving.)
I would like the opinions of anyone wishing to comment.
Do you agree or disagree?
--
Gary Peek mailto:mylas...@mycompanyname.com
Industrologic, Inc. http://www.industrologic.com
Phone: (636) 723-4000 Fax: (636) 724-2288
David Ferree
masturbating and doesn't mean anything he says.
In other words, there's no reason to believe a word of what is written
by him. For all we know, Larry Pennington never placed anything
before the board, etc., etc., etc.
Get it?
MO SKYPIGS
> the generally accepted definition of >"fun jumper " does not include those
>who profit monetarily from the sport.
Load of blue sky.... Why do you continually "Bitch" about every dollar USPA
spends that does not benefit you or your chosen cause directly?
Yes! any changes in the law or rules will cost money! That is a fact. We are
all members of this organization, and as such, these changes will cost "all"
members, which includes DZO's, working staff, and "fun jumpers". They all
benefit in the end.
Do you wish to see these changes in the Laws occur?
We all have our own personal needs from the organization, but as fair and equal
members, the monies the we pay are owned and used to benefit the skydiving
organization and sport as one.
The freedom of where we live and the sport we pursue, has a price (get a clue
nothing is free!) USPA is the only organization who is working to allow us to
continue to have this freedom. Not that I agree with all that is done and
decided at HQ.
So in a word what I'am trying to say is "Shut the Fuck Up and Buy the Beer!
> Now before you get all huffy and pissy, >let me tell you how this bill
>came about .
Not Huffy or Pissy! Just exercising the freedom to speak my mind! HEY! I'm up
there now with the likes of "LOAD OF BLUE SKY" Damn I feel special!!!
Airman1270
> ...and constatnt police scrutiny...
Can't miss the irony, eh? I know, it's "constant." Never said I could type...
Chagrined Jon
FL #28
David Ferree
your questions will be answered.
me
> posted to rec.skydiving and dropzone.com forum
>
> At USPA BOD meetings (and at other times I recall) I often
> hear a statement used by BOD members and others present.
>
> "What is good for drop zones is good for skydivers".
>
> (I take this to mean individual USPA members and other skydivers
> not neccesarily involved in the business of skydiving.)
>
> I would like the opinions of anyone wishing to comment.
> Do you agree or disagree?
Higher jump prices are not good for skydivers. Monopolies are
not good for skydivers. There are all manner of things that
could be "good" for DZ's and not for fun jumpers. That of course
does not exclude that some things CAN be good for both.
Kevin O'Connell
JimBo
>From: Gary Peek mylas...@mycompanyname.com
>At USPA BOD meetings (and at other times I recall) I often
>hear a statement used by BOD members and others present.
>
>"What is good for drop zones is good for skydivers".
>I would like the opinions of anyone wishing to comment.
>Do you agree or disagree?
Too much gray area there Gary.
Lets use Michael Hawkes' Skydive Las Vegas for an example.....the regular
skydiver that wasnt trained there cannot jump there...which is like 99.99% of
the USPA membership. What , if anything, that our USPA dollars do to support
that particular DZ benefits any of us?
Jim D-10154
Man small... why fall ? Skies call... thats all.
Gary Peek
>>"What is good for drop zones is good for skydivers".
Jimbo:
> Too much gray area there Gary.
> Lets use Michael Hawkes' Skydive Las Vegas for an example.....the regular
> skydiver that wasnt trained there cannot jump there...which is like 99.99% of
> the USPA membership. What , if anything, that our USPA dollars do to support
> that particular DZ benefits any of us?
That's why I'm asking. When things like that are said at meetings
I need some better responses.
LORD OF THE SKY
> > Uhm ..Pig
> > the generally accepted definition of >"fun jumper " does not include
those
> >who profit monetarily from the sport.
>
> Load of blue sky.... Why do you continually "Bitch" about every dollar
USPA
> spends that does not benefit you or your chosen cause directly?
Nice try Sky Pig. The question was "how does this bill benefit the fun
jumper?" It wasn't what do I "bitch about".
Let me guess... you are a GM DZO , aren't you?
Tell me SkyPig, why do you believe that I and the other Individual Members
should subsidize your business?
Rationalize for us the fact that you pull more monetary resources out of
USPA than you put in.
You do realize that the cost of the GM program is about 40% higher
than the dues collected from Group Members , don't you?
Hey Mr.USPA GM DZO, why don't you pay your own way?
You remind me of the welfare queens clogging up the checkout lines at the
local grocery store spending my money(gov't issued food stamps) on lobster
tails and Black Angus Newy York Strip.
I believe those utilizing food stamps should be required by law to thank
everyone in line for the food we have donated to them. There should be a
similar requirement of you welfare GM DZO's.
Sucking off the masses is what you are doing.
I just wonder how you could possibly enjoy the swallowing so much!
Have you no dignity?
Have you know ethics?
Have you no shame????
Did your father not teach you that in order to be a Man one needs
to stand on his own two feet?
So why are your hands in my pocket ,taking my change, and rubbing my
member?
Pay your own way .
Take care of your own business.
Don't expect me to *donate* in order to keep your business afloat.
"Treetop" a.k.a. LORD OF THE SKY
David Ferree
MO, keep in mind that nothing fleatop says means a thing, and all of
your questions will be answered.
LORD OF THE SKY
>
> At USPA BOD meetings (and at other times I recall) I often
> hear a statement used by BOD members and others present.
>
> "What is good for drop zones is good for skydivers".
>
> (I take this to mean individual USPA members and other skydivers
> not neccesarily involved in the business of skydiving.)
>
> I would like the opinions of anyone wishing to comment.
> Do you agree or disagree?
Well Gary, one only need to look as far as the requirement that non -USPA
drop zones pay a fee equal to the class three Group Member annual dues
,inorder to hold an aff certification course .
I mean, obviously , and this is something Mr. Mc' Mike and myself worked
on with some success over the years(we were able to negotiate it down from a
fee everytime a non GM dz held the course to one annual fee), this
particular fee requirement may prove cost prohibitive to non USPA GM DZs
who would have hosted an AFF certification course as a service to the local
jumper population.
What I'm saying is that Instructional courses should be held at the
convenience of the Individual Members.
This fee (and clearly it's sole purpose is
to give an advantage to GM DZs over non GMs ) is detrimental to the
Individual Jumper seeking a rating.
David Ferree
Gary, just keep in mind that nothing Fleatop says means a thing, to
anyone, and all of your questions about what's wrong with him will be
answered.
RIPOLLAK
>Yes! any changes in the law or rules will cost money! That is a fact. We
>are
>> all members of this organization, and as such, these changes will cost
>"all"
>> members, which includes DZO's, working staff, and "fun jumpers".
IMO this is exactly why the present system won't work.
DZO's & working jumpers need to establish their own organization. Just like the
PIA did.
But we all know that won't happen, as long as the GMDZO's band together and
require that all jumpers at their DZ's belong to USPA. The fun jumpers will
continue to pay their USPA dues and jump.
Are there any adverse impacts to the fun jumpers if this legislation is passed?
Could be. So what? Bend over ooops excuse me shut up and jump!
Every time the GMDZO's/USPA comes up with this off the wall crap, ooops excuse
me want to make some minor changes to help the "skydiving family" some folks
want to confuse the issue with the facts and complain about a conflict of
interests and who pays/benifits.
Don't like it quit USPA and drive the extra miles to a non USPA DZO the choice
is yours.
R.I.P.
SCR 2719
B-7881
He's back for now
Tandmterry
> Let me guess... you are a GM DZO , aren't you?
Yes he is!
Terry
MO SKYPIGS
> Nice try Sky Pig. The question was "how does this bill benefit the fun
>jumper?" It wasn't what do I "bitch about".
Well, the last time I checked, jumpers have been known to sue, or attempt to
hold a DZO responsible, or staff for their actions, when they injure, or kill
themselves by their own actions.
> Let me guess... you are a GM DZO , aren't you?
Yes! 20 plus years, and I have had the pleasure of watching the sport
deteriorate with the advent of full on assholes such as yourself.
> Tell me SkyPig, why do you believe that I and the other Individual Members
>should subsidize your business?
You are not subsidizing my business, if you wish to subsidize my operation
please send me cash!
> Rationalize for us the fact that you pull more monetary resources out of
>USPA than you put in.
Now, this is where you need to rationalize to ME! What resources is it that I
receive? USPA has rules and regulations that I must abid to as a group member,
These regulations DO NOT benefit my operation in a monetary fashion, they cost
me time and money to adhere to! They require training and licensing
requirements, that again cost money, training, and equipment. So persons such
as yourself can come to train and skydive. They don't subsidize my operation
they set standards that are in place, to benefit jumper students and fun
jumpers alike.
> You do realize that the cost of the GM program is about 40% higher
>than the dues collected from Group Members , don't you?
Its called business! everything that you want has a cost. You want standards
and safety, they cost money and the persons whom benefit from these standards
and safety is you! Students and fun jumpers.
Sure you could force GMs to burden all the costs of the programs, and safety
that you ask for, than you would be forced to pay for it at the other end every
time you come to the DZ, either way you pay! You are the customer.
If you believe that all you need to jump is a location, a pilot and an aircraft
you are sadly behind the power curve. It a new world with new rules, and
requirements.
> Hey Mr.USPA GM DZO, why don't you pay your own way?
I always have! USPA has "NEVER" sent me a check or lowered my requirements or
cost of operation.
> You remind me of the welfare queens clogging up the checkout lines at the
>local grocery store spending my money (gov't issued food stamps) on lobster
>tails and Black Angus Newy York Strip.
I can state the same! you bitch about your taxes, and how they are spent, then
do everything possible, to abuse the same system that is in place to give you
what you ask for.
> I believe those utilizing food stamps should be required by law to thank
>everyone in line for the food we have donated to them. There should be a
>similar requirement of you welfare GM DZO's.
You are thanked! every time you ride the aircraft and make a jump that shows
the DZ operation no profit! Every time you pack in the carpeted, heated and
sometimes airconditioned area that your lift ticket cost doesn't cover!
Everytime the DZO pops for the free beer on Saturday night. Everytime a boggie
or event is organized to allow you to have more fun and make more jumps at a
cost absorbed by the DZ. Everytime you ask for the rules to be bent or
overlooked so you can go and do as you wish. I could go on and on, but
unfortunately you are not aware enough to realize how much and how often you
are thanked.
> Sucking off the masses is what you are doing.
> I just wonder how you could possibly enjoy the swallowing so much!
We are "all" dues paying members of this organization and jumpers first, the
money spent by USPA is to support the needs of the sport and its jumping
members. Again I assume all costs of my operation, and most and many times Lose
money to offer jumps to some of my customers, I don't go to USPA and ask for
funds to cover my loss to provide service to its members.
>Have you no dignity?
Yes! I run and offer the very best training, aircraft, and services that my
customers can afford.
>Have you know ethics?
Yes! I follow the BSRs, all training programs, and group membership pledge
requirements, that USPA set forward. and do not look the other way when jumpers
ask for these rules and regulations to be altered to benefit their personal
needs.
>Have you no shame????
Only, that I find myself wasting precious time responding to such an arrogant,
and ignorant asshole as yourself.
> Did your father not teach you that in order to be a Man one needs
>to stand on his own two feet?
I have always, and will always, I do not cut corners, I pay my own way, even
when that cost is sometimes increased to benefit some whiner like you, and I
will not be degraded or allow myself to be taken adavantage of, even by the
efforts of some ass like yourself.
> So why are your hands in my pocket ,taking my change, and rubbing my
>member?
If I wanted your change, I would walk up and take it from you! "Bitch"
Member? Ha! you would need to be shoved back in the hole and reprocessed to
grow a member! once again "Bitch"
> Pay your own way .
I will continue to do so!
> Take care of your own business.
I will continue to do so!
> Don't expect me to *donate* in order to keep your business afloat.
If the future of the sport depends on donations offered by persons like you! we
are doomed to failure!
The only donations I have seen from you is pitiful drivel posted on rec. for
the third time
"Bitch"
David Ferree
(snip wasted arguing with fleatop)
>If the future of the sport depends on donations offered by persons like you! we
>are doomed to failure!
>The only donations I have seen from you is pitiful drivel posted on rec. for
>the third time
>"Bitch"
>
>Tom Dolphin, D6919
Tom, keep in mind that Fleatop enjoys telling lies, bragging about
what a good liar he is, soliciting the support of like minded liars,
then getting very upset when someone calls him a liar to the point
that he retaliates by telling more lies.
In other words, I wouldn't worry too much about anything he has to
say, about anything.
David Ferree
MO SKYPIGS
>what a good liar he is, soliciting the support of like minded liars,
>then getting very upset when someone calls him a liar to the point
>that he retaliates by telling more lies.
>
>In other words, I wouldn't worry too much about anything he has to
>say, about anything.
I Know, I Know It's just that when he and the other girls get together he
becomes such a "Bitch"
LORD OF THE SKY
> Reply to the "Load of Blue Sky"
>
> > Nice try Sky Pig. The question was "how does this bill benefit the fun
> >jumper?" It wasn't what do I "bitch about".
>
> Well, the last time I checked, jumpers have been known to sue, or attempt
to
> hold a DZO responsible, or staff for their actions, when they injure, or
kill
> themselves by their own actions.
So again , "how does this bill benefit the fun jumper?"
>
> > Let me guess... you are a GM DZO , aren't you?
>
> Yes! 20 plus years, and I have had the pleasure of watching the sport
> deteriorate with the advent of full on assholes such as yourself.
A GM DZO for 20 plus continuous years? Is that what you are wanting us
to believe?
Because I have reason to doubt that .
Perhaps you meant to say that you have been jumping for 20+ years.
If that is the case you were more than likely one of the full-of-
himself 100 jump wonders when I started jumping.
I see all that's changed is the jump numbers.
>
> > Tell me SkyPig, why do you believe that I and the other Individual
Members
> >should subsidize your business?
>
> You are not subsidizing my business, if you wish to subsidize my operation
> please send me cash!
Let me explain this subsidy thing again. I'll try to go slower this time
so you can follow along.
See Skypig, a portion of every dues dollar I send to USPA goes toward
the cost of the Group Member program.
Yes, that is very true. See ,SP, (and let me know if I'm going too fast
here so that I can slow down and let you read it again) the dues the Group
Members pay doesn't even come close to covering the expenses of the Group
Member program. As a matter of fact , the last time I got a straight answer
on the subject out of HQ ,the Group Members' dues only covered about %60
percent of the costs. The shortfall was taken out of the Individual
Members(I'm one of those) pockets.
Have you wrapped your brain around those concepts yet?
I'll give you a brief revue and then you can take a quick break
before I continue.
The GM program costs more money than the GMs pay in.
The shortfall is taken out of the pockets of the Individual
Members.
Very good! Now take a short break and when you get back we'll discuss
the many benefits the Group Members enjoy!
Oh! You're back,
Did you remember to wash your hands?
Let's get back to work
We are going to discuss the myriad of benefits USPA Group Members enjoy
on the Individual Members dime.
Follow along now ,this program provides GM DZOs with such items as :
DZO Incoming and Safety & Training Newsletters which are USPA reports
on issues important to Group Members and their staffs .
Monthly advertisment in a five color magazine which is one of the
most circulated skydiving periodicals in the world .
Eligibility to sell the USPA 45-Day Temporary Individual Membership. This
membership is a low-cost alternative to the annual membership and allows the
DZ to offer the third-party liability insurance that comes with membership
to all its jumpers, especially students and foreign visitors to ensure that
the DZO's ass is covered in the event one of his students or other
customers causes damage to a third party while utilizing the DZO's
facilities .
Eligibility to participate in the Voluntary Courtesy Inspection Program
(VCIP). Participating DZs receive a complete on-site inspection by a
USPA-contracted DZ inspector. DZs are expected to pay the inspection costs.
( *** Have you had your DZ USPA inspected , Skypig??*** )
Group Members receive a certificate of membership signifying their
pledge to comply with USPA's Basic Safety Requirements (BSRs), which include
compliance with the Federal Aviation Regulations (FARs). This credential is
meaningful to experienced and new jumpers alike.
( * OK, only those cash cow students can be led to believe the USPA
banner means anything by itself.*)
More advertising in the form of the Drop Zone Directory Listing. Group
Members are provided a complete listing in USPA’s online Drop Zone
Directory. The listing provides detailed information about the DZ as well as
contact information and web links to the DZ. The information can be quickly
updated.
USPA Logo Use. Group Members may use the USPA Group Member logo with the
phrase "USPA Group Member" on any of their own advertising.
Online Database Access. Group Members may access USPA's online database
of member credentials through the USPA website. This enables DZs to
instantly check the status of jumpers' memberships, licenses, and ratings .
USPA assists Group Members threatened with government interference. In
cases of regional or state challenges, USPA will provide on-site assistance,
as resources permit. USPA maintains reference and legal case files relevant
to DZ operations.
AAD Fund Use. Group Member DZs are eligible to apply for legal assistance
with access issues through the USPA Airport Access Defense Fund.
Participation in the DZO Conference. Normally held annually, the USPA
Drop Zone Owners Conference provides an opportunity for DZOs to participate
in sessions and seminars relevant to DZ operations.
Group Members receive a copy of the Flying for Skydiving Operations video
jointly produced by USPA and the FAA, and useful for guiding prospective
jump pilots.
Group Members receive a copy of the Skydiving and Parachute Operations
video jointly produced by USPA and the FAA, and useful in educating local
pilots and airport management about safe DZ procedures.
In addition to their normal monthly advertisement in a five color major
skydiving periodical,Group Member DZ events and boogies are listed free in
the "Main Events" department of Parachutist Magazine.
In return for these benefits, each Group Member will pledge to comply with
the BSRs, including FARs; require USPA individual membership (45-Day or
annual) for all licensed skydivers; ensure all its employees and staff are
appropriately qualified and rated in accordance with the Skydivers
Information Manual (SIM) and (where applicable) hold USPA ratings and/or FAA
licenses and certifications commensurate with their duties; and require that
every skydiver sign a hold harmless release on behalf of USPA, consistent
with state laws. Group Members also agree to support USPA promotional
programs.
>
> > Rationalize for us the fact that you pull more monetary resources out of
> >USPA than you put in.
>
> Now, this is where you need to rationalize to ME! What resources is it
that I
> receive?
Oh! I'm sorry, maybe I went too fast! Scroll back to the top and this
time read of all the GM benefits at your own pace. This time go 'round take
as much time as you need . I'll wait on you.
>USPA has rules and regulations that I must abid to as a group member,
Well, there is that "pledge" but, you wouldn't be the first GM DZO
who didn't abide by it.
> These regulations DO NOT benefit my operation in a monetary fashion, they
cost
> me time and money to adhere to! They require training and licensing
> requirements, that again cost money, training, and equipment. So persons
such
> as yourself can come to train and skydive. They don't subsidize my
operation
> they set standards that are in place, to benefit jumper students and fun
> jumpers alike.
>
> > You do realize that the cost of the GM program is about 40%
higher
> >than the dues collected from Group Members , don't you?
>
> Its called business! everything that you want has a cost.
And you want these GM benefits. The question is ; "who is paying the
cost?"
The last word I got from HQ was that the individual Members were
paying a large percentage of the cost for the benefits the GMs wanted.
>You want standards
> and safety, they cost money and the persons whom benefit from these
standards
> and safety is you!
I'm not clear on how I benefit from all that advertisment you get in this
periodical which is distributed world-wide, especially as I don't have any
desire to ever jump at your DZ. Could you explain that to me?
> Sure you could force GMs to burden all the costs of the programs, and
safety
> that you ask for,
First off, I'm not asking any DZO to be a USPA Group Member nor am I
forcing any "burden " on them . If they elect to become an USPA Group
Member I would expect them to pay for the cost of that program.
>than you would be forced to pay for it at the other end every
> time you come to the DZ, either way you pay! You are the customer.
But I'm not *your* customer and I don't want to subsidize *your business*.
I have no problem paying the fees any DZO charges me if I elect to do
business with him/her. My objection is in that even though you and I have
no business relationship, you expect to gain profit from my USPA dues.
> If you believe that all you need to jump is a location, a pilot and an
aircraft
> you are sadly behind the power curve.
Certainly I can jump with only those items. To safely land I'll also
require a rig.
Don't tell me I can't because I do it quite often.Infact often people pay
me to do just that.
>It a new world
2.5 billion yrs plus.
>with new rules, and
> requirements.
The new rules were instigated by USPA , the very organization which is
taking money from me to subsidize your business.
> > Hey Mr.USPA GM DZO, why don't you pay your own way?
>
> I always have! USPA has "NEVER" sent me a check or lowered my requirements
or
> cost of operation.
Again, the cost of the benefits you gain as a Group Member are
%40 more than what you pay to be a Group Member.
Should we take another break so that you can re-read from the top?
> > You remind me of the welfare queens clogging up the checkout lines at
the
> >local grocery store spending my money (gov't issued food stamps) on
lobster
> >tails and Black Angus Newy York Strip.
>
> I can state the same! you bitch about your taxes, and how they are spent,
then
> do everything possible, to abuse the same system that is in place to give
you
> what you ask for.
Totally different subject you are introducing here but for the
record, all I ask of government is to leave me alone and stay out of my
business. Stay off my land and out of my pocket. I'm perfectly capable of
taking care of myself and mine thank you!I really don't need government to
protect me in anyway.
> > I believe those utilizing food stamps should be required by law to thank
> >everyone in line for the food we have donated to them. There should be a
> >similar requirement of you welfare GM DZO's.
>
> You are thanked! every time you ride the aircraft and make a jump that
shows
> the DZ operation no profit! Every time you pack in the carpeted, heated
and
> sometimes airconditioned area that your lift ticket cost doesn't cover!
> Everytime the DZO pops for the free beer on Saturday night. Everytime a
boggie
> or event is organized to allow you to have more fun and make more jumps at
a
> cost absorbed by the DZ. Everytime you ask for the rules to be bent or
> overlooked so you can go and do as you wish. I could go on and on, but
> unfortunately you are not aware enough to realize how much and how often
you
> are thanked.
You're welcome, now get your measly lunch grabbers out of my pocket and pay
your own way!
Riddle me this , SkyPig ...
all newsgroup banter aside,
If you see no benefit to your business from the Group Member Program
,why are you so anxious to pay to be a Group Member?
Tom B
> hear a statement used by BOD members and others present.
> "What is good for drop zones is good for skydivers".
> (I take this to mean individual USPA members and other skydivers
> not neccesarily involved in the business of skydiving.)
> I would like the opinions of anyone wishing to comment.
> Do you agree or disagree?
>
There is clearly overlap out there, but it is not always so. I don't believe
it is in the general skydiver's interest for USPA to devise programs in
partnership with group member DZ's that make it nearly impossible for many
to jump without becoming members of USPA. To the extent that membership
money is used to promote the sport and specifically promote group member
dropzones, I can't see that passing the test anyway.
But stretch it a bit further. How is it in the memberships interest to hide
our organization's employees salaries, not just from the membership that
pays the bills, but from our board representatives as well, as has been done
in the past.
How is it in members' interest to restrict training to GM DZ's instead of
providing them wherever members assemble?
As one with a Coach rating, I don't think that program has delivered results
that justify its costs to the membership, but it took little time for the
coached jumps to make it into many DZ's structured programs, and income
stream. Bluntly it just extended the number of high cost jumps. It put a
hell of a dent in friendly nurturing of new jumpers by casual older ones.
I don't particularly like the GM program at all in USPA, but I damn sure
don't want to subsidize it with membership dues. How does this help me
again?
Tom B
David Ferree
<lord...@ellijay.com> wrote:
>
>"MO SKYPIGS" <mosk...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20040201121717...@mb-m26.aol.com...
>> Reply to the "Load of Blue Sky"
>> > Let me guess... you are a GM DZO , aren't you?
>>
>> Yes! 20 plus years, and I have had the pleasure of watching the sport
>> deteriorate with the advent of full on assholes such as yourself.
>
> A GM DZO for 20 plus continuous years? Is that what you are wanting us
>to believe?
Still more than one monkey, are you flea? LOL
me
Unfortunately, from what I can make out of this bill, one of the potential
down sides is that many of us might find out that our various forms
of insurance would no longer cover us for skydiving related activities.
It could close down clubs at colleges. It could void the insurance
on private or rental aircraft used for skydiving. So it might be
a great bill for the DZO but a mixed bag for individual fun jumpers
and their nonprofit clubs.
Kevin O'Connell
Tandmterry
>Yes! 20 plus years, and I have had the pleasure of watching the sport
>deteriorate with the advent of full on assholes such as yourself.
>
Your attitude and reputation is why I havent, and will not visit your dz Tom.
Your your own worst enemry.
Terry
JimBo
>From: tandm...@aol.com
>>Yes! 20 plus years, and I have had the pleasure of watching the sport
>>deteriorate with the advent of full on assholes such as yourself.
>>
darn it Terry...who found out about that ?
Tandmterry
>darn it Terry...who found out about that ?
I think if Tom was refering to me he would've at least said Mr. Asshole? I
guess he has no respect for experience jumpers?
Terry
MO SKYPIGS
>
>Your your own worst enemry.
>
>Terry
Your attitude and reputation is why you haven't, and will not visit my dz
Terry.
Your your own worst enemy.
Tom Dolphin, D-6919
skydiving rec
Tandmterry
>Your attitude and reputation is why you haven't, and will not visit my dz
>Terry.
Are you saying I would NOT be allowed to jump there if I were to show up?
Terry
JimBo
>Your attitude and reputation is why you haven't, and will not visit my dz
>Terry.
>
>Your your own worst enemy.
>
>Tom Dolphin, D-6919
>skydiving rec
hmmmm that sounds like Hawkes talking about somebody I know :o)
MO SKYPIGS
>
>Terry
No Terry! That decision was made by YOU
in your post and e-mail, I have no concern or vested interest in your jumping
activities, nor do I wish to inter into any type of pissing contest about the
USPA Liability Action. We agree to disagree.
Tom
skydiving rec
LORD OF THE SKY
> I have no concern or vested interest in your jumping
> activities, nor do I wish to inter into any type of pissing contest about
the
> USPA Liability Action.
>We agree to disagree.
I didn't see Terry agree to that!
And what kind of attitude is that anyway?
Where is the "Kind and loving spirit" of the newsgroup here?
I thought this was a place where we could discuss the issues and come to
an agreement that "Treetop" is always right.
It's the attitudes and argumentiveness of people like you ,Tom
Dolphin, who may cause me to leave the rec and log on to DZ.Com!
JimBo
> It's the attitudes and argumentiveness of people like you ,Tom
>Dolphin, who may cause me to leave the rec and log on to DZ.Com!
>
> "Treetop" a.k.a. LORD OF THE SKY
everybody here knows Sangiro banned you from dz.com LOL
LORD OF THE SKY
"JimBo" <sb...@aol.comnooospam> wrote in message
news:20040204232743...@mb-m17.aol.com...
> >Subject: Re: USPA Prompts Virginia Liability Action (01/22/04)
> >From: "LORD OF THE SKY" lord...@ellijay.com
>
> > It's the attitudes and argumentiveness of people like you ,Tom
> >Dolphin, who may cause me to leave the rec and log on to DZ.Com!
> >
> > "Treetop" a.k.a. LORD OF THE SKY
>
> everybody here knows Sangiro banned you from dz.com LOL
And all because I gave some woman going to Africa to work on the AIDS
epidemic a sage and sound piece of advise.
I counseled her to tell those people over there to stop Fuckin'
Monkeys!
Was that so wrong?
MO SKYPIGS
>
> I didn't see Terry agree to that!
>And what kind of attitude is that anyway?
>
> Where is the "Kind and loving spirit" of the newsgroup here?
> I thought this was a place where we could discuss the issues and come to
>an agreement that "Treetop" is always right.
>
> It's the attitudes and argumentiveness of people like you ,Tom
>Dolphin, who may cause me to leave the rec and log on to DZ.Com!
Ok! OK! Load of BS your correct I have lost some of the spirit necessary to
post here on this ng. So if this makes you feel better, Here We Go!
"AW GO Fuck Yourself"!!!!
Is it better now? O-Yea almost forgot! Load of BS is "Right" My Bad. :o)
LORD OF THE SKY
> >>We agree to disagree.
> >
> > I didn't see Terry agree to that!
> >And what kind of attitude is that anyway?
> >
> > Where is the "Kind and loving spirit" of the newsgroup here?
> > I thought this was a place where we could discuss the issues and come
to
> >an agreement that "Treetop" is always right.
> >
> > It's the attitudes and argumentiveness of people like you ,Tom
> >Dolphin, who may cause me to leave the rec and log on to DZ.Com!
>
> Ok! OK! Load of BS your correct I have lost some of the spirit necessary
to
> post here on this ng. So if this makes you feel better, Here We Go!
Wait .. did you mean *you are correct* because you wrote "your correct".
Just a bit of houskeeping but it does potentially alter the entire
meaning of your message .
> "AW GO Fuck Yourself"!!!!
>
> Is it better now?
Much.
>O-Yea almost forgot! Load of BS is "Right" My Bad.
See and lately many have accused me of being a *leftist liberal*. That's
the problem with rec.skydiving nowadays, way to many opinions.
I've solved that problem though and I recommend you do the same.
What I've done is killfiled every poster excepting myself.
That way you can get right to the *good stuff*.
"Treetop" a.k.a. LORD OF THE SKY
:o)
me
[snip]
> > Ok! OK! Load of BS your correct I have lost some of the spirit necessary
> to
> > post here on this ng. So if this makes you feel better, Here We Go!
>
> Wait .. did you mean *you are correct* because you wrote "your correct".
> Just a bit of houskeeping but it does potentially alter the entire
> meaning of your message .
> That's the problem with rec.skydiving nowadays, way to many opinions.
Did you mean "way too many opinions" as in an excessive amount of
opinions? Or did you mean "way to many opinions" as in "the path
towards many opinions"? "...it does potentially alter the entire
meaning of your message".
Kevin O'Connell
[Any spelling/grammar flame is guaranteed to contain more than the original]
David Ferree
Well, that, and offering up your girlfriend for free blow jobs to
anyone who would vote for you for the BOD.
Still wasn't good enough for many votes, huh? LOL
Come on, monkey boy, dance for me.
David
Tandmterry
> nor do I wish to inter into any type of pissing contest about the
>USPA Liability Action.
Why not? You seem to poke your nose in every other pissing contest, why not
this one???
Terry
Tandmterry
> I didn't see Terry agree to that!
>And what kind of attitude is that anyway?
An attitude from a greedy dzo!
Terry
Tandmterry
> Here We Go!
> "AW GO Fuck Yourself"!!!!
Is that how YOU "Spread The Love" Tom?
Terry
Tandmterry
>hmmmm that sounds like Hawkes talking about somebody I know :o)
Some DZO's don't want the reality getting out?
Terry
Tom B
"Tandmterry" <tandm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040207132329...@mb-m29.aol.com...
Found a new DZO to be the locus of your life Terry? :)
Tom B
Tandmterry
>Date: 2/7/04 6:50 PM !!!First Boot!!!
>Found a new DZO to be the locus of your life Terry? :)
If a DZO is in it strictly for the money thats his right. But when he trys tap
dance around it by using every excuse but the truth, then I have a problem with
it. Also when DZO's have little bitches like you defending them you just make
it easier for them to escape without revealing the truth.
Terry