Mormonism And The Elizabeth Smart Kidnapping
Victor LeNettoyeur©
newsgroup ("ex" Mormons included) though anyone is welcome to respond.
Like the rest of the world, I was very happy to hear that this little
teenage kid had bucked the trend and made it home safely after a long ordeal
that included an alleged kidnapping and repeated sexual abuse at the hands
of some filthy deranged religious nut.
I'm just curious as to the historical relevancy here. Has the Mormon
community begun to ponder the significance of a disgusting old fart who
nabbed a young girl and forcibly made her his "second wife"? I ask this in
light of the fact that Joseph Smith, the mormon "prophet", reportedly
"married" a girl only fourteen years old (Helen Mar Whitney). Brigham young
also married prepubescent little girls (the youngest was a woman named
Fannie Clayton) and forced them into his harems. (Young actually had two
harems, one in Salt Lake City; and one in the southern outpost of Saint
George).
I don't mean any disrespect to this kid, or her father or mother; and
certainly I don't think anyone is to blame for what she's been put through
(except of course the perpetrators). It does raise some interesting
questions about the society she calls home, however; that she was willing to
stay with these people and live in this arrangement without attempting to
escape. It makes me wonder about all the indoctrination and hero worship
that goes on in this organization directed toward honoring people who (in
plain language) can only be described as a group of philanderers and pedophiles.
Cheers,
Victor
--
"I KNOW Saddam Hussein has the flame, he's a JUST man, a GOOD man and that
IS BABYLON - our SECOND home. (Meru was the name of the first one...) I
don't care what the brainwashing newsmedia has to say and I don't listen."
-Saddam Hussein, a pretty swell guy, by Durga Phyllis Rose
in message <uc93ucf...@corp.supernews.com>
John
It would be interesting to know how much Mitchell preached from actual
LDS material along with his bastardized doctrines.. Did he read
passages from the Journal of Discourses? Did he make ES memorize
Doctrine and Covenants 132? Did he convince Elizabeth that the church
today is in apostacy and he teaches the true gospel according to
Joseph Smith and Brigham Young? We'll probably never know but I could
imagine a 14 year old LDS girls going along with what Brother Joseph
and Brigham Young taught.
father of peace
>Brigham young
>also married prepubescent little girls
prebuescent would imply about 11 or 12 years old.
I don't know any mormon fundamentalists that
advocate marriage to girls who are
prepubescent. And the orthodox LdS certainly
don't.
Love,
Absalom
>It does raise some interesting
>questions about the society she calls home, however; that she was willing to
>stay with these people and live in this arrangement without attempting to
>escape.
I think that has a lot to do with the teachings of the LdS church
to "follow the prophet" "Follow The Prophet" "FOLLOW THE PROPHET"
And to obey authority figures whether church or civil, and that even
if the authority figure asks us to do something wrong that God will
bless us for it.... So once Emmanuel claimed to be the prophet
and was in a position of authority, it was impossible to run
away and still be a good little LdS girl.
Love,
Absalom
--
Absalom's Iconoclastic Collection
http://www.absalom.com/mormon
Roy Stogner
> I'm just curious as to the historical relevancy here. Has the Mormon
> community begun to ponder the significance of a disgusting old fart who
> nabbed a young girl and forcibly made her his "second wife"? I ask this in
> light of the fact that Joseph Smith, the mormon "prophet", reportedly
> "married" a girl only fourteen years old (Helen Mar Whitney). Brigham young
> also married prepubescent little girls (the youngest was a woman named
> Fannie Clayton) and forced them into his harems.
What "force"? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to excuse the kinds of
manipulation that Joseph Smith used, but they're not quite in the same
league. "Marry me and your family can go to heaven" is pretty bad, and
"Marry me or God will kill me" is too, but the "Marry me or I will kill
you" line that Elizabeth Smart probably heard is in a class by itself. I
haven't read much about Brigham Young's relationships; did he do anything
that bad?
---
Roy Stogner
Victor LeNettoyeur©
"Roy Stogner" <royst...@SPAMticam.utexas.edu> wrote in
news:ug5ea.43911$fa.20...@twister.austin.rr.com:
> On Wed, 19 Mar 2003 09:06:42 -0800, Victor LeNettoyeur© wrote:
>
>> I'm just curious as to the historical relevancy here. Has the Mormon
>> community begun to ponder the significance of a disgusting old fart
>> who nabbed a young girl and forcibly made her his "second wife"? I
>> ask this in light of the fact that Joseph Smith, the mormon
>> "prophet", reportedly "married" a girl only fourteen years old (Helen
>> Mar Whitney). Brigham young also married prepubescent little girls
>> (the youngest was a woman named Fannie Clayton) and forced them into
>> his harems.
>
> What "force"? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to excuse the kinds
> of manipulation that Joseph Smith used, but they're not quite in the
> same league. "Marry me and your family can go to heaven" is pretty
> bad, and "Marry me or God will kill me" is too,
Joseph Smith did far worse than that. On a couple of occasions he appeared
at the doorstep of a child bride's father with a fully armed and uniformed
detatchment of his "Nauvoo Militia". Fanny Alger's relatives were reported
to get such a visit when they raised some minimal objections to his
sexualizing their sixteen year old niece.
but the "Marry me or I
> will kill you" line that Elizabeth Smart probably heard is in a class
> by itself.
Actually, it's precisely the type of behavior that was the norm in 19th
century Deseret territory.
I haven't read much about Brigham Young's relationships;
> did he do anything that bad?
The record clearly shows that Young was infinitely more coercive, abusive
and underhanded than Joseph Smith ever was. Not only did he use death
threats to procure sexual slaves, he allowed the practice to become so
widespread throughout his church heirarchy that it remains something of a
cultural holdover today (judging from the Smart example).
Here's a little tidbit from Linn's _Story Of The Mormons_:
Bishop Warren Snow of Manti, San Pete County, although the husband of
several wives, desired to add to his list a good-looking young woman
in that town. When he proposed to her, she declined the honor,
informing him that she was engaged to a younger man. The Bishop argued
with her on the ground of her duty, offering to
have her lover sent on a mission, but in vain. When even the girl's
parents
failed to gain her consent, Snow directed the local Church authorities
to
command the young man to give her up. Finding him equally obstinate, he
was one evening summoned to attend a meeting where only trusted members
were present. Suddenly the lights were put out, he was beaten and tied
to a bench, and Bishop Snow himself castrated him with a bowie knife.
In this condition, he was left to crawl to some haystacks, where he
lay until discovered…[he] regained his health but has been an idiot
or quiet lunatic ever since… And the Bishop married the girl.
Stenhouse quotes the following as showing that the San Pete outrage was
scarcely concealed by the Mormon authorities: I was at a Sunday meeting,
in the spring of 1857, in Provo, when
the news of the San Pete incident was referred to by the presiding
Bishop,
Blackburn. Some men in Provo had rebelled against authority in some
trivial
matter, and Blackburn shouted in his Sunday meeting -- a mixed
congregation
of all ages and both sexes: 'I want the people of Provo to understand
that
the boys in Provo can use the knife as well as the boys in San Pete.
Boys, get your knives ready.
Bear in mind that this was not Young nor any of his immediate lieutenants
who was able to get away from this. It's just some irrelevant bishop from
Sanpete County (way out in the boondocks).
Like it or not, pedophilia and harem-taking was a part of the culture, and
apparently still is today to some extent.
> ---
> Roy Stogner
Victor LeNettoyeur©
> >Brigham young
> >also married prepubescent little girls
>
> prebuescent would imply about 11 or 12 years old.
Actually, in the 19th century America of Brigham Young, menarche occurred
around 14.5 years of age. (my notes say that came from Frisch and Tanner --
though I'll retract if I get a better source). By that standard, chances
are at least one (and possibly several) of Young's wives were prepubescent
at the time of their "marriages". (And I use that term loosely, hehe).
> I don't know any mormon fundamentalists that
> advocate marriage to girls who are
> prepubescent. And the orthodox LdS certainly
> don't.
The implication was never made that the general LDS community approves of
or condones the crimes against the Smart family. Certainly I don't think
they do. What I'm wondering is how the overall cultural nuances related to
honoring men like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young played into Smart's
mindset -- particularly early on. Apparently it was only a few weeks later
that she was spotted in a park with her captors. Apparently there was, at
some level, a conscious acceptance of her situation. This is what is, to
me, inexplicable.
>
>
> >It does raise some interesting
> >questions about the society she calls home, however; that she was
willing to
> >stay with these people and live in this arrangement without attempting to
> >escape.
>
> I think that has a lot to do with the teachings of the LdS church
> to "follow the prophet" "Follow The Prophet" "FOLLOW THE PROPHET"
> And to obey authority figures whether church or civil, and that even
> if the authority figure asks us to do something wrong that God will
> bless us for it.... So once Emmanuel claimed to be the prophet
> and was in a position of authority, it was impossible to run
> away and still be a good little LdS girl.
This is actually a very insightful response. I've always been fascinated by
Mormon history, though I'm not too current with the specifics of the
doctrines today. Is this slogan "Follow the prophet" a widespread tenet of
modern Mormonism, or is it just a synopsis of your own opinion? (I honestly
don't know the answer and I'm not being snide).
I've heard Benson (?) calls himself a "prophet". I wonder if this entails
fortelling the future or ferreting out hidden conspiracies? If so, it
definitely makes you wonder why he didn't just have a "prophecy" about
Smart's location. };-)
O well, we can all be happy the poor kid is home I guess.
>
> Love,
Right back atcha slick.
> Absalom
Roy Stogner
> "Roy Stogner" <royst...@SPAMticam.utexas.edu> wrote in
> news:ug5ea.43911$fa.20...@twister.austin.rr.com:
>
>> What "force"? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to excuse the kinds
>> of manipulation that Joseph Smith used, but they're not quite in the
>> same league. "Marry me and your family can go to heaven" is pretty
>> bad, and "Marry me or God will kill me" is too,
>
> Joseph Smith did far worse than that. On a couple of occasions he appeared
> at the doorstep of a child bride's father with a fully armed and uniformed
> detatchment of his "Nauvoo Militia". Fanny Alger's relatives were reported
> to get such a visit when they raised some minimal objections to his
> sexualizing their sixteen year old niece.
Do you have any reference for this? It sounds like you've got something
mixed up; Fanny Alger was before the move to Nauvoo.
>> but the "Marry me or I
>> will kill you" line that Elizabeth Smart probably heard is in a class
>> by itself.
>
> Actually, it's precisely the type of behavior that was the norm in 19th
> century Deseret territory.
Again, this is the sort of claim that you want to substantiate.
> Bear in mind that this was not Young nor any of his immediate lieutenants
> who was able to get away from this. It's just some irrelevant bishop from
> Sanpete County (way out in the boondocks).
Do you have any specifics on what Brigham Young himself did?
---
Roy Stogner
Victor LeNettoyeur©
> On Wed, 19 Mar 2003 19:14:40 -0800, Victor LeNettoyeurŠ wrote:
>
> > "Roy Stogner" <royst...@SPAMticam.utexas.edu> wrote in
> > news:ug5ea.43911$fa.20...@twister.austin.rr.com:
> >
> >> What "force"? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to excuse the kinds
> >> of manipulation that Joseph Smith used, but they're not quite in the
> >> same league. "Marry me and your family can go to heaven" is pretty
> >> bad, and "Marry me or God will kill me" is too,
> >
> > Joseph Smith did far worse than that. On a couple of occasions he
appeared
> > at the doorstep of a child bride's father with a fully armed and
uniformed
> > detatchment of his "Nauvoo Militia". Fanny Alger's relatives were
reported
> > to get such a visit when they raised some minimal objections to his
> > sexualizing their sixteen year old niece.
>
> Do you have any reference for this? It sounds like you've got something
> mixed up; Fanny Alger was before the move to Nauvoo.
>
Mosiah Hancock, Fanny Alger's cousin gave an account of the trouble between
his family and Smith after the love affair became common knowledge. His
source is used both by the Tanners (Shadow Or Reality) and by Compton (In
Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives Of Joseph Smith). I'll admit to never
having perused a facsimile of the original manuscript.
> >> but the "Marry me or I
> >> will kill you" line that Elizabeth Smart probably heard is in a class
> >> by itself.
> >
> > Actually, it's precisely the type of behavior that was the norm in 19th
> > century Deseret territory.
>
> Again, this is the sort of claim that you want to substantiate.
Polygamy is substantiated all through the genealogical records of the
original pioneers and colonists throughout Utah. If you're not aware of the
near universal nature of the practice, feel free to peruse the genealogical
records at your local Mormon stake center. I'm sure you get my point.
>
> > Bear in mind that this was not Young nor any of his immediate
lieutenants
> > who was able to get away from this. It's just some irrelevant bishop
from
> > Sanpete County (way out in the boondocks).
>
> Do you have any specifics on what Brigham Young himself did?
Sure. We can start with the fact that he implicitly encouraged his bishops
to prey upon young girls, castrating and sexually mutilating any who
interfered in their sexual pursuits.
I can't help but notice that you snipped the example I already gave you.
I'll repost it.
Here's a little tidbit from Linn's _Story Of The Mormons_:
Bishop Warren Snow of Manti, San Pete County, although the husband of
several wives, desired to add to his list a good-looking young woman
in that town. When he proposed to her, she declined the honor,
informing him that she was engaged to a younger man. The Bishop argued
with her on the ground of her duty, offering to
have her lover sent on a mission, but in vain. When even the girl's
parents
failed to gain her consent, Snow directed the local Church authorities
to
command the young man to give her up. Finding him equally obstinate, he
was one evening summoned to attend a meeting where only trusted members
were present. Suddenly the lights were put out, he was beaten and tied
to a bench, and Bishop Snow himself castrated him with a bowie knife.
In this condition, he was left to crawl to some haystacks, where he
lay until discovered.[he] regained his health but has been an idiot
or quiet lunatic ever since. And the Bishop married the girl.
Stenhouse quotes the following as showing that the San Pete outrage was
scarcely concealed by the Mormon authorities: I was at a Sunday meeting,
in the spring of 1857, in Provo, when
the news of the San Pete incident was referred to by the presiding
Bishop,
Blackburn. Some men in Provo had rebelled against authority in some
trivial
matter, and Blackburn shouted in his Sunday meeting -- a mixed
congregation
of all ages and both sexes: 'I want the people of Provo to understand
that
the boys in Provo can use the knife as well as the boys in San Pete.
Boys, get your knives ready.
Hope that helps,
RyanS2
> father of peace wrote:
>
> > >Brigham young
> > >also married prepubescent little girls
> >
> > prebuescent would imply about 11 or 12 years old.
>
> Actually, in the 19th century America of Brigham Young, menarche occurred
> around 14.5 years of age. (my notes say that came from Frisch and Tanner --
> though I'll retract if I get a better source).
If you want a more medical support of that thesis, try
Journal of the Medical Association of Thailand, November 2002,
"Earlier onset of pubertal maturation in Thai girls." Article by
Mahachoklertwattana, Suthutvoravut, Charoenkiatkul, Chongviriyaphan,
Rojroongwasinkul, Thakkinstian, and Rajatanavin. No, I'm not making
that article up:
http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:V5SoHbQW5AQC:www.ramacme.org/activities/program-exam/3-21-207-2101-0206-01/3-21-207-2101-0206-01-0011.html+Earlier+onset+of+pubertal+maturation+in+Thai+girls&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
The article starts off by talking about how the U.S. has been having
younger and younger menstruation ages, and then examines Thai girls
and finds the same.
>What I'm wondering is how the overall cultural nuances related to
> honoring men like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young played into Smart's
> mindset -- particularly early on.
Good question, but don't think anyone is going to explore it. Here's
what the literature says so far:
Journal of Counseling & Development, Sep/Oct93, article by Mary
Almsworth, "The Effects of Psychological Trauma on Children and
Adolescents".
"The defenses of internalization of anger and identification with
aggressors have been noted in traumatized boys; girls have been
observed to internalize hopelessness and helplessness and identify
with victims (Green, 1985; Terr, 1985; Wohl &Kaufman, 1985)"
"Several authors have reported changes in the child's or adolescent's
view of the future, a condition that Terr (1988) has called a state of
"futurelessness. " Terr reported that the kidnapped Chowchilla
children sounded like "disillusioned elderly" who had developed a
pessimistic outlook on life, had little hope or confidence, predicted
that they would die at young ages, and were unable to see themselves
getting married or having children of their own (Terr, 1984, p. 309)."
Distress, helplessness, and powerlessness. In analyzing drawings by
traumatized children, Wohl and Kaufman (1985) found the drawings to
"mirror feelings of helplessness, powerlessness, fragmentation,
depression, anger, and anxiety . . . [with] indications of social
isolation, a lack of trust, and a general fearfulness of interpersonal
contact" (p. 135). Other researchers (Milgram et al., 1988; Pynoos et
al., 1987; Zimrin, 1986) have found that frightening thoughts of the
event may elicit immediate feelings of anxiety, inability to relax,
helplessness, hopelessness, and fear. Holaday et al. (1992) noted that
passivity in decision making may result from traumatized children's
sense of powerlessness to affect their lives."
"Self-perceptions. Many studies have documented alternations in
self-perceptions, or feelings toward the self, among traumatized
children and adolescents. These include low self-esteem, poor
self-concept, and negative body image (Kinard, 1980; Oates, Forrest, &
Peacock, 1985; Tong, Oates, & McDowell, 1987). Lack of self-confidence
has also been documented in various trauma groups (Armsworth &
Turboff, 1990; Holaday et al., 1992). Other studies have found that
traumatized children may become extremely critical of themselves or
their behavior, judging themselves to be worthless and deserving of
their fate (Doyle & Bauer, 1988; Terr, 1988; Zimrin, 1986).
Omens and fears. A year after the Chowchilla incident, several of the
kidnapped children had associated unrelated events with the kidnapping
and believed those events had been omens, warnings, or forecasts of
the disaster (Terr, 1984). All children involved continued to express
fears of further trauma 4 years later and had developed phobic-like or
generalized fears, such as fear of the dark, being left alone,
vehicles (including school busses), strangers, or confined spaces
(Terr, 1984).
Traumatized children have been observed to show a heightened sense of
vulnerability and sensitivity to environmental threat with a tendency
to re-experience the events emotionally both in the presence of
physical reminders and from intrusive thoughts and images (Rosenheck &
Nathan, 1985; van der Kolk, 1987b). Feelings of apathy, withdrawal,
and decreased motivation also have been reported and may be evidence
of resignation to the perception of being unable to control events
(Eth & Pynoos, 1984; Mowbray, 1988). Fears and feelings of
vulnerability are not limited to the children's personal safety.
Excessive fear and worry about the safety of family members were
documented by Pynoos et al. (1987) after a sniper shooting at school."
Next article:
"Psychological first aid for children exposed to sexual violence." by
Michael Mufson, et al, "School Counselor", September 1994:
'The process of traumatic sexualization occurs when sexual abuse
shapes a child's sexuality in "developmentally inappropriate and
interpersonally dysfunctional ways" (Finkelhor, 1987, p. 355). The
theme of betrayal refers to the realization that an adult upon whom
the children depended either harmed them or failed in his or her duty
to protect. Stigmatization refers to the negative meanings associated
with abuse that can become internalized by victims. For example, a
victim may experience guilt, shame, and badness because of the
attitudes and behaviors of the offender or the victim's family or
community. Powerlessness is described by Finkelhor (1987) as having
two dimensions: " . . . (a) a child's will, wishes, and sense of
efficacy are repeatedly overruled and frustrated and (b) a child
experiences the threat of injury or annihilation." (p. 357)'
'4. Powerlessness. Isely (1992a) wrote that "the sex offender always
commits at least two crimes: first he steals the body; then he steals
the voice" (p. 1). Through their identification with the victim, these
secondary victims also experienced a sense of "disempowerment." Their
normative sense of invulnerability and complimentary sense of basic
trust were challenged. The children vividly expressed generalized fear
and helplessness. Attempts to regain a sense of mastery were explicit
in detailed revenge fantasies expressed verbally and in drawings.'
"By impersonating the aggressor, assuming his attitudes or imitating
his aggression, the child transforms himself from the person who is
threatened into the person who makes the threat". (Uunberg, Herman,
Allgemeine. Neurosenlehre, Bern, Berlin, 1932)
I think you've gotten the point. If I can predict psychologists, I can
guess their response is going to be something like this. The teen
gave up any feelings of hope, became powerless, assumed futility
towards the future, probably blamed herself for what happened, then
authority figures, and started to identify with her kidnapper. As
time passed, she became more and more dependant upon her kidnapper.
>Apparently it was only a few weeks later
> that she was spotted in a park with her captors. Apparently there was, at
> some level, a conscious acceptance of her situation. This is what is, to
> me, inexplicable.
There was an interesting, (I say that purely from a scientific
viewpoint), study on dogs that involved electrocution. In one cage,
the dogs were given the ability to jump out of the cage when shocked,
thus ending the shock. In cage two, the dogs could not leave. The
dogs in cage two, after being shocked, were then put into cage one.
When they were shocked again, the dogs didn't even try to jump out of
the cage. They apparently had accepted their fate to be shocked no
matter what. The psychologist Victor Frankl talks about that as well
during his account of being a survivor at German torture camps. He's
probably the most qualified person to talk about this subject, so
here's what he says:
"After the first shock, the prisoner glides into the second stage,
that of relative apathy. He begins to kill his feelings, such as the
burning longing for his home, the disgust of dirt... soon one can look
on quietly while others are beaten; the suffering, the sick, the dying
don't touch the heart any more" (p. 30). A fellow-prisoner advised
Wiechert, "You must not see nor hear... you must go through this like
a stone... here one who suffers with the rest must break" (p. 78).
Another holocaust survivor remembers it as such:
On the transportation to the camp, when the whole arsenal of
"initiation-techniques" was practiced on the prisoners, Bettelheim
noticed that his emotions became "extremely detached." He started to
"watch" things. So did his comrades. They felt: "It cannot be true.
Such things don't happen."
Protective blocking mechanisms thus finally established a sort of
"mental emergency regime" under which the ego was able to function
without breaking down. It was characterized by feelings of
estrangement, especially lack of emotions, and by a strong tendency
toward self-observation. This syndrome resembles a state of mind which
we know as depersonalization. In the state of depersonalization,
Nunberg points out, the ego perceives, but the reality of the
perception is not recognized by another part of the ego. ("It cannot
be true, such things don't happen.")
Much like in other cases communicated in analytical literature, the
ego of the prisoners refused to accept the estrangement it was
subjected to. It, therefore, turned the experiences connected with the
loss of its feelings into an object of its intellectual interests. As
a secondary symptom, depersonalization thus produced the urge for
self-observation. By turning its inner development into an object of
investigation, the ego makes the first attempt to restore its contact
with the world of objects from which it had withdrawn under the impact
of the initial trauma. This interpretation is all the more
intelligible, as self-observation always includes also the tendency to
observe others. We can understand ourselves only if we understand
others and vice versa.
The wish for identification with the aggressor has been observed also
in adults. In some illustrative case reports, Clara Thompson stresses
the vicious circle put in motion by this defense-mechanism. The
stronger the need for identification, the more a person loses himself
in his omnipotent enemy--the more helpless he becomes. The more
helpless he feels, the stronger the identification, and--we may
add--the more likely it is that he tries even to surpass the
aggressiveness of his aggressor. This may explain the almost
unbelievable phenomenon that prisoner-superiors sometimes acted more
brutally than did members of the SS.
Kautsky holds that most of the prominents (and even of the SS-men)
committed their brutalities with a distinctly bad conscience. The old
ego-ideals and their underlying identifications apparently were still
in existence. They conflicted with the attempts of the regressed part
of the ego to make new identifications which were strictly opposed to
those of the past. It seems that not seldom the prominents tried to
overcome ensuing guilt-feelings by a very common reaction: they
projected the guilt they felt onto the objects of their aggression,
and fell upon them in the resulting fits of rage. These were, of
course, followed by increased guilt feelings which promoted new
projections and more aggression--another vicious circle, sometimes
broken only by the death of the tormented tormentors, inflicted upon
them by the hands of their victims.
Identification with the aggressor represented the final stage of
passive adaptation. It was a means of defense of a rather paradoxical
nature: survival through surrender; protection against the fear of the
enemy--by becoming part of him; overcoming helplessness--by regressing
to childish dependence.
Taken from a great article in the American Journal of Psychotherapy,
Winter 1999, "How Did They Survive? Mechanisms of Defense in Nazi
Concentration Camps" by Hilde Bluhm. Anyway, hope that answered your
questions. (Outside from the one of which I know of no research.)
Lee Paulson
news:7fa9b259.03032...@posting.google.com...
> "Victor LeNettoyeur©" <exponent_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<YWVvbg==.c1c3d926d31080c1...@1048131843.cotse.net>...
> > father of peace wrote:
> >
> > > >Brigham young
> > > >also married prepubescent little girls
> > >
> > > prebuescent would imply about 11 or 12 years old.
> >
> > Actually, in the 19th century America of Brigham Young, menarche
occurred
> > around 14.5 years of age. (my notes say that came from Frisch and
Tanner --
> > though I'll retract if I get a better source).
>
> If you want a more medical support of that thesis, try
>
> Journal of the Medical Association of Thailand, November 2002,
> "Earlier onset of pubertal maturation in Thai girls." Article by
> Mahachoklertwattana, Suthutvoravut, Charoenkiatkul, Chongviriyaphan,
> Rojroongwasinkul, Thakkinstian, and Rajatanavin. No, I'm not making
> that article up:
>
>
http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:V5SoHbQW5AQC:www.ramacme.org/activities
/program-exam/3-21-207-2101-0206-01/3-21-207-2101-0206-01-0011.html+Earlier+
onset+of+pubertal+maturation+in+Thai+girls&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
>
> The article starts off by talking about how the U.S. has been having
> younger and younger menstruation ages, and then examines Thai girls
> and finds the same.
>
Earlier menarche is generally believed to be related to better nutrition and
disease control worldwide. There is a corollary to this as well--the onset
of menopause (and hence childbearing years) also has been increasing
significantly.
snip
--
Regards,
Lee, The James, uM & GW
Fool Speck
Excellent post!
From this I think it is safe to conclude that her reaction to the
kidnapping had little to do with her Mormon background and more to do
with being a young human.
Steve Lowther
Roy Stogner
> Roy Stogner wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 19 Mar 2003 19:14:40 -0800, Victor LeNettoyeur© wrote:
>>
>> > "Roy Stogner" <royst...@SPAMticam.utexas.edu> wrote in
>> > news:ug5ea.43911$fa.20...@twister.austin.rr.com:
>> >
>> >> What "force"? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to excuse the
>> >> kinds of manipulation that Joseph Smith used, but they're not quite
>> >> in the same league. "Marry me and your family can go to heaven" is
>> >> pretty bad, and "Marry me or God will kill me" is too,
>> >
>> > Joseph Smith did far worse than that. On a couple of occasions he
> appeared
>> > at the doorstep of a child bride's father with a fully armed and
> uniformed
>> > detatchment of his "Nauvoo Militia". Fanny Alger's relatives were
> reported
>> > to get such a visit when they raised some minimal objections to his
>> > sexualizing their sixteen year old niece.
>>
>> Do you have any reference for this? It sounds like you've got
>> something mixed up; Fanny Alger was before the move to Nauvoo.
>
> Mosiah Hancock, Fanny Alger's cousin gave an account of the trouble
> between his family and Smith after the love affair became common
> knowledge. His source is used both by the Tanners (Shadow Or Reality)
> and by Compton (In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives Of Joseph Smith).
> I'll admit to never having perused a facsimile of the original
> manuscript.
I have a copy of Compton's book, but I don't recall reading that. Is it
in Chapter 1? Do you have a page number? On page 32 Compton prints a
statement by Mosiah Hancock claiming that Fanny Alger's father was asked
about the marriage before a ceremony was performed.
>> >> but the "Marry me or I
>> >> will kill you" line that Elizabeth Smart probably heard is in a
>> >> class by itself.
>> >
>> > Actually, it's precisely the type of behavior that was the norm in
>> > 19th century Deseret territory.
>>
>> Again, this is the sort of claim that you want to substantiate.
>
> Polygamy is substantiated all through the genealogical records of the
> original pioneers and colonists throughout Utah. If you're not aware of
> the near universal nature of the practice, feel free to peruse the
> genealogical records at your local Mormon stake center. I'm sure you get
> my point.
Genealogical records include the phrase "Marry me or I will kill you"?
That's a new one to me.
You're not assuming that every polygamous marriage was made under the
threat of force, are you?
>> > Bear in mind that this was not Young nor any of his immediate
> lieutenants
>> > who was able to get away from this. It's just some irrelevant bishop
> from
>> > Sanpete County (way out in the boondocks).
>>
>> Do you have any specifics on what Brigham Young himself did?
>
> Sure. We can start with the fact that he implicitly encouraged his
> bishops to prey upon young girls, castrating and sexually mutilating any
> who interfered in their sexual pursuits.
Is there evidence that he encouraged it other than the fact that it
happened once?
> I can't help but notice that you snipped the example I already gave you.
> I'll repost it.
I did read it the first time; I was just wondering if you had something
where Young was more directly involved.
---
Roy Stogner
father of peace
>Is this slogan "Follow the prophet" a widespread tenet of
>modern Mormonism, or is it just a synopsis of your own opinion? (I honestly
>don't know the answer and I'm not being snide).
It seems to me that "Follow the prophet" is the ONLY tenent
of modern LdSism. All other doctrines and practices are
subject to abandonment on the whim of the prophet.
The whole history of the modern LdS church is one
concession after another to orthodox Christianity.
Those concessions are driven by the prophet who
can blithely proclaim any doctrine, even if it is
directly in opposition to the revelations recorded
in the standard works.
There are only about three excommunicable offenses in
the church. Murder; Having sex outside of marriage;
and not doing what church leaders tell you to do.
>I've heard Benson (?) calls himself a "prophet". I wonder if this entails
>fortelling the future or ferreting out hidden conspiracies? If so, it
>definitely makes you wonder why he didn't just have a "prophecy" about
>Smart's location. };-)
Current LdS leadership claims to be prophets, seers, and revelators,
but to the best of my knowledge no LdS church leader in my lifetime,
nor in the lifetime of my grandfather (who lived an exceedingly long
life and died decades ago), has ever publically prophecied, or told
us about the details of a revelation that they personally experienced.
Blessed Be,
Absalom
Victor LeNettoyeur©
Joseph Smith: Mr. Hancock, your fourteen year old niece, who is my employee,
has been my fuckpig for some time. My wife recently caught us in a
compromising position.
Pa Hancock [with raised left eyebrow]: O? This is interesting.
Joseph Smith: Quite. My wife was angry with me, but I channelled the speerit
of the lawrd who told her to shut her fucking mouth. God told me that I
could make your little niece my "second wife", and if my first one continues
to cause trouble, something horrible might happen to her. If she dares to
divorce me, Gawd (or his messengers) might arrange a "smiting" (horrible
accident).
Pa Hancock [overjoyed]: Welcome to the family my boy!
Sure. That's all very plausible.
> >> >> but the "Marry me or I
> >> >> will kill you" line that Elizabeth Smart probably heard is in a
> >> >> class by itself.
> >> >
> >> > Actually, it's precisely the type of behavior that was the norm in
> >> > 19th century Deseret territory.
> >>
> >> Again, this is the sort of claim that you want to substantiate.
> >
> > Polygamy is substantiated all through the genealogical records of the
> > original pioneers and colonists throughout Utah. If you're not aware of
> > the near universal nature of the practice, feel free to peruse the
> > genealogical records at your local Mormon stake center. I'm sure you get
> > my point.
>
> Genealogical records include the phrase "Marry me or I will kill you"?
> That's a new one to me.
>
About every other nineteenth century marriage details a forty or fifty year
old man being wedded to women ranging from eleven to sixteen years of age I
don't know how such a situation could reasonably exist *without* an implied
threat of death (by a knife across the throat or starvation -- it's pretty
much the same).
> You're not assuming that every polygamous marriage was made under the
> threat of force, are you?
>
I'm assuming (at least an implied) threat when dealing with eleven, twelve,
thirteen and fourteen year old females marrying some smelly, toothless forty
or fifty year-old pervert. Yes.
Your argument is starting to resemble one that would assume this is
something of the natural order of things. See any young girls slobbering all
over fifty year-old janitors lately? For that matter, do you see any
self-respecting forty year old man who would be attracted to a thirteen or
fourteen year-old girl?
> >> > Bear in mind that this was not Young nor any of his immediate
> > lieutenants
> >> > who was able to get away from this. It's just some irrelevant bishop
> > from
> >> > Sanpete County (way out in the boondocks).
> >>
> >> Do you have any specifics on what Brigham Young himself did?
> >
> > Sure. We can start with the fact that he implicitly encouraged his
> > bishops to prey upon young girls, castrating and sexually mutilating any
> > who interfered in their sexual pursuits.
>
> Is there evidence that he encouraged it other than the fact that it
> happened once?
>
He necessarily encouraged this simply due to his position and the fact that
he did not deal with the pervert in question.
Brigham Young was both religious and secular leader of all he surveyed -- a
law unto himself. He had his own private death squad which routinely hunted
down "apostates" and other undesireables and murdered them on his orders. If
he didn't implicitly approve of that little order of business, why do you
suppose he didn't deal with it? Compared to the little kids he butchered at
Mountain Meadows, the bishop's untimely departure would hardly have raised
an eyebrow.
> > I can't help but notice that you snipped the example I already gave you.
> > I'll repost it.
>
> I did read it the first time; I was just wondering if you had something
> where Young was more directly involved.
Well, we're back to the original point of contention. Do you suppose that
Smart's conscious acceptance of her own fate was influenced by the long and
egregious cultural tradition of child sex-slavery in her church's history?
If so, how much of a role did this play in her acceptance of her fate as
21st century child sex-slave? How do you suppose her behavior might have
differed compared to a child brought up in a more normal environment?
> ---
> Roy Stogner
Roy Stogner
> Roy Stogner wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 19 Mar 2003 22:36:25 -0800, Victor LeNettoyeur© wrote:
>>
>> > Mosiah Hancock, Fanny Alger's cousin gave an account of the trouble
>> > between his family and Smith after the love affair became common
>> > knowledge. His source is used both by the Tanners (Shadow Or Reality)
>> > and by Compton (In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives Of Joseph
>> > Smith). I'll admit to never having perused a facsimile of the
>> > original manuscript.
>>
>> I have a copy of Compton's book, but I don't recall reading that. Is
>> it in Chapter 1? Do you have a page number? On page 32 Compton prints
>> a statement by Mosiah Hancock claiming that Fanny Alger's father was
>> asked about the marriage before a ceremony was performed.
I would have appreciated it if you would have answered my question before
(or even instead of) beginning a sarcastic parody. Does Mosiah Hancock
claim that Fanny Alger's relatives were threatened (with a "fully armed
and uniformed detachment of the Nauvoo Militia") or not?
> Joseph Smith: Mr. Hancock, your fourteen year old niece, who is my
> employee, has been my fuckpig for some time.
Obviously he didn't say anything like this. What do you find implausible
about the account that Mosiah Hancock gives, rather than the one you've
made up yourself?
> My wife recently caught us in a compromising position.
Do the dates even allow this? Mosiah Hancock's account places the
marriage between Fanny Alger and Joseph Smith in the spring of 1833. Fanny
Alger didn't leave the city until at least two years later. It seems
unlikely that Emma's discovery preceded the marriage ceremony.
> Joseph Smith: Quite. My wife was angry with me, but I channelled the
> speerit of the lawrd who told her to shut her fucking mouth.
Are you referring to something other than the Section 132 "revelation"?
Because I thought that wasn't given to Emma until 1842.
> Sure. That's all very plausible.
Of course it isn't plausible. Wording like Mosiah suggests, something
like, "Samuel, the Prophet Joseph loves your daughter Fanny and wishes her
for a wife; what say you?", would be much more plausible.
>> >> >> but the "Marry me or I
>> >> >> will kill you" line that Elizabeth Smart probably heard is in a
>> >> >> class by itself.
>> >> >
>> >> > Actually, it's precisely the type of behavior that was the norm in
>> >> > 19th century Deseret territory.
>> >>
>> >> Again, this is the sort of claim that you want to substantiate.
>> >
>> > Polygamy is substantiated all through the genealogical records of the
>> > original pioneers and colonists throughout Utah. If you're not aware
>> > of the near universal nature of the practice, feel free to peruse the
>> > genealogical records at your local Mormon stake center. I'm sure you
>> > get my point.
>>
>> Genealogical records include the phrase "Marry me or I will kill you"?
>> That's a new one to me.
>
> About every other nineteenth century marriage details a forty or fifty
> year old man being wedded to women ranging from eleven to sixteen years
> of age.
Brigham Young's wives (as listed by the Tanners) include one 16 year old.
Joseph Smith's include two 16 year olds and a 14 year old. When did the
demographic change from 1 in 20 to 1 in 2?
> I don't know how such a situation could reasonably exist *without* an
> implied threat of death (by a knife across the throat or starvation --
> it's pretty much the same).
Girls could be raised from youngest childhood to believe that their
"priesthood leaders" had direct inspiration from God and would tell them
what was best for them, including when and whom to marry. Read Compton's
chapter on Helen Mar Kimball if you want an example: even girls who hated
their marriages could be persuaded with promises like "it will ensure your
eternal salvation and exaltation and that of your father's household and
all of your kindred".
>> >> Do you have any specifics on what Brigham Young himself did?
>> >
>> > Sure. We can start with the fact that he implicitly encouraged his
>> > bishops to prey upon young girls, castrating and sexually mutilating
>> > any who interfered in their sexual pursuits.
>>
>> Is there evidence that he encouraged it other than the fact that it
>> happened once?
>
> He necessarily encouraged this simply due to his position and the fact
> that he did not deal with the pervert in question.
Okay. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you here, just asking if you
had anything less implicit and more direct that you were thinking of.
> Well, we're back to the original point of contention. Do you suppose
> that Smart's conscious acceptance of her own fate was influenced by the
> long and egregious cultural tradition of child sex-slavery in her
> church's history?
I doubt it. Take a look at the Brigham Young manual that the LDS church
put out a few years ago: they managed to systematically edit out every
mention of polygamy and barely raised a murmur! There are Mormons today
(particulary youths) who don't even know that Joseph Smith was a
polygamist! I think it was just last year that an BYU history professor
repeated the lie that polygamy was just something invented to take care of
all the old women widowed by anti-Mormon violence, and Hinckley once
called it a "very limited practice; carefully safeguarded" on national TV
without raising members' eyebrows.
I wouldn't be surprised if Elizabeth had never heard about Mormon child
brides before she was abducted.
> How do you suppose her behavior might have differed compared to a child
> brought up in a more normal environment?
I have no idea. I can't imagine what the "normal" behavior for a teenage
girl being taken at knifepoint is, much less guess how her upbringing
changed hers.
---
Roy Stogner
Victor LeNettoyeur©
> On Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:17:03 -0800, Victor LeNettoyeurŠ wrote:
>
> > Roy Stogner wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, 19 Mar 2003 22:36:25 -0800, Victor LeNettoyeurŠ wrote:
> >>
> >> > Mosiah Hancock, Fanny Alger's cousin gave an account of the trouble
> >> > between his family and Smith after the love affair became common
> >> > knowledge. His source is used both by the Tanners (Shadow Or Reality)
> >> > and by Compton (In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives Of Joseph
> >> > Smith). I'll admit to never having perused a facsimile of the
> >> > original manuscript.
> >>
> >> I have a copy of Compton's book, but I don't recall reading that. Is
> >> it in Chapter 1? Do you have a page number? On page 32 Compton prints
> >> a statement by Mosiah Hancock claiming that Fanny Alger's father was
> >> asked about the marriage before a ceremony was performed.
>
> I would have appreciated it if you would have answered my question before
> (or even instead of) beginning a sarcastic parody.
Ahh, come on. I thought it was funny. You religious types really need to
learn how to chuckle once in a while.
> Does Mosiah Hancock
> claim that Fanny Alger's relatives were threatened (with a "fully armed
> and uniformed detachment of the Nauvoo Militia") or not?
>
I never specifically said that Fanny Alger's uncle was threatened with the
Nauvoo Militia. I said that this was a case where ol' Joe brought some
amazing pressure to bear on the poor fellow.
I stand by my other statement. I've come across a couple of accounts
describing "midnight proposals" with Smith's militia detachments in tow to
gently persuade the father of one young girl or another to hop in his sack.
No I don't have any references handy, and I prolly will not find any, so
make of it what you may.
> > Joseph Smith: Mr. Hancock, your fourteen year old niece, who is my
> > employee, has been my fuckpig for some time.
>
> Obviously he didn't say anything like this. What do you find implausible
> about the account that Mosiah Hancock gives, rather than the one you've
> made up yourself?
>
> > My wife recently caught us in a compromising position.
>
> Do the dates even allow this? Mosiah Hancock's account places the
> marriage between Fanny Alger and Joseph Smith in the spring of 1833. Fanny
> Alger didn't leave the city until at least two years later. It seems
> unlikely that Emma's discovery preceded the marriage ceremony.
That was my understanding of the motivation for that convenient "revelation"
that ol Uncle Joe got (reportedly right after he was caught in flagrante by
wifey).
"And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my
servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this
commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy
God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.
But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph
do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and
multiply him and give unto him an hundredfold in this world, of fathers
and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children,
and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds. (D&C 132:54,55)"
(for the alt.satanism peanut gallery, this bizarre collection of claptrap
known as "Doctrine And Covenants" purports to be a record of modern
revelation from Duh Lawrd hisself to the "Latter-Day Prophet" Joseph Smith.
It's mostly boring drudgery, though there are several entertaining
highlights that make it worth a rapid run-through.)
>
> > Joseph Smith: Quite. My wife was angry with me, but I channelled the
> > speerit of the lawrd who told her to shut her fucking mouth.
>
> Are you referring to something other than the Section 132 "revelation"?
> Because I thought that wasn't given to Emma until 1842.
>
> > Sure. That's all very plausible.
>
> Of course it isn't plausible. Wording like Mosiah suggests, something
> like, "Samuel, the Prophet Joseph loves your daughter Fanny and wishes her
> for a wife; what say you?", would be much more plausible.
>
For argument's sake let's assume that all was very hunky-dory and Uncle
Hancock eagerly agreed to let his niece go off in white-slavery with good
ol' Uncle Joe. Wouldn't that prove my original point regarding the universal
acceptance of such depravity among the original "saints"?
Just curious: suppose one of your best friends, who you thought was above
reproach, approached you with a similar proposal. How would you react if
your niece, cousin, daughter or what-not was about to be made somebody's
"second wife"? I dunno about you, but I'd probably go out to the garage and
get the AK-47. };-)
> >> >> >> but the "Marry me or I
> >> >> >> will kill you" line that Elizabeth Smart probably heard is in a
> >> >> >> class by itself.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Actually, it's precisely the type of behavior that was the norm in
> >> >> > 19th century Deseret territory.
> >> >>
> >> >> Again, this is the sort of claim that you want to substantiate.
> >> >
> >> > Polygamy is substantiated all through the genealogical records of the
> >> > original pioneers and colonists throughout Utah. If you're not aware
> >> > of the near universal nature of the practice, feel free to peruse the
> >> > genealogical records at your local Mormon stake center. I'm sure you
> >> > get my point.
> >>
> >> Genealogical records include the phrase "Marry me or I will kill you"?
> >> That's a new one to me.
> >
> > About every other nineteenth century marriage details a forty or fifty
> > year old man being wedded to women ranging from eleven to sixteen years
> > of age.
>
> Brigham Young's wives (as listed by the Tanners) include one 16 year old.
> Joseph Smith's include two 16 year olds and a 14 year old. When did the
> demographic change from 1 in 20 to 1 in 2?
>
That has certainly been my experience at the local stake center.
Hey: don't take my word for it. The LDS church itself operates "genealogy
libraries" that run free of charge and can be perused by the public. Check
your local yellow pages and go down for a visit. Anyone in the peanut
gallery can browse the CD-ROM database at their leisure and cross-reference
the number of 19th century dudes with their many spouses -- far too many
under age. Dates of birth, death and marriage conveniently included.
Quite an indictment, that.
> > I don't know how such a situation could reasonably exist *without* an
> > implied threat of death (by a knife across the throat or starvation --
> > it's pretty much the same).
>
> Girls could be raised from youngest childhood to believe that their
> "priesthood leaders" had direct inspiration from God and would tell them
> what was best for them, including when and whom to marry. Read Compton's
> chapter on Helen Mar Kimball if you want an example: even girls who hated
> their marriages could be persuaded with promises like "it will ensure your
> eternal salvation and exaltation and that of your father's household and
> all of your kindred".
>
> >> >> Do you have any specifics on what Brigham Young himself did?
> >> >
> >> > Sure. We can start with the fact that he implicitly encouraged his
> >> > bishops to prey upon young girls, castrating and sexually mutilating
> >> > any who interfered in their sexual pursuits.
> >>
> >> Is there evidence that he encouraged it other than the fact that it
> >> happened once?
> >
> > He necessarily encouraged this simply due to his position and the fact
> > that he did not deal with the pervert in question.
>
> Okay. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you here, just asking if you
> had anything less implicit and more direct that you were thinking of.
>
Juh-heezus. Ain't that enough?
At this very hour all the armies of the west are concentrating their efforts
on some joker who allows his underlings similar liberties with the common
folk in his country. I think the show is a bit self-righteous and
propagandic, but on the whole I don't disagree with the removal of this 21st
century Iraqi Brigham. Sort of a shame the 19th century United States
appeased Young rather than rout him.
> > Well, we're back to the original point of contention. Do you suppose
> > that Smart's conscious acceptance of her own fate was influenced by the
> > long and egregious cultural tradition of child sex-slavery in her
> > church's history?
>
> I doubt it. Take a look at the Brigham Young manual that the LDS church
> put out a few years ago: they managed to systematically edit out every
> mention of polygamy and barely raised a murmur! There are Mormons today
> (particulary youths) who don't even know that Joseph Smith was a
> polygamist!
OK, now this is sorta relevant. I had no idea about this development. If
it's generally true, then I suppose the case is somewhat blown.
Years ago I studied LDS history relatively extensively, though I've never
been a member. Most Mormons I know personally aren't polygamous (to my
knowledge) and I doubt they approve of it. In every case I've conversed with
them though, they've all had a rough understanding of Smith's novel ideas
concerning marriage.
I think it was just last year that an BYU history professor
> repeated the lie that polygamy was just something invented to take care of
> all the old women widowed by anti-Mormon violence, and Hinckley once
> called it a "very limited practice; carefully safeguarded" on national TV
> without raising members' eyebrows.
>
> I wouldn't be surprised if Elizabeth had never heard about Mormon child
> brides before she was abducted.
>
That really is interesting. I suppose it's impossible to keep it covered up
for ever, the genie being out of the bottle by now and all, but if the
members agree to keep the truth hidden. I'm not in any position to disagree
with this, and wouldn't doubt it to be true.
> > How do you suppose her behavior might have differed compared to a child
> > brought up in a more normal environment?
>
> I have no idea. I can't imagine what the "normal" behavior for a teenage
> girl being taken at knifepoint is, much less guess how her upbringing
> changed hers.
Well, I'm judging "normal" by the fourteen and fifteen year olds I hung out
with, grew up with, and see in my neighborhood. The type of scenario would
probably be perfectly understandable with a victim of six, seven or eight
years old. A teenager is something else.
Let's get real: Most kids at this age (15) can't even be forced to clean
their rooms by their own parents who love them; much less take orders from a
scuzzy old geezer who smells like his own piss, holds them at knifepoint,
and wants to use them for sex.
Kyle Ivan Blake
christian by hiding behind some gimpy church that doesnt even enforce the
Word of God and his Commandments.
Which laws are Mormons forced to obey that can be explained through
Prophecy, Prayer, and Scripture?
If your refering to plural marriage, this is the situation. Right now on
earth there is an = number of worthy men to worthy women, god has commanded
Mormons to abstain from plural marriage, he may command differntly if this
balance is offset.
Please allow me speak in hypothetcial example:
A great war is underway on Earth. Men from every continent are called to
fight this Evil War/Last Days. The Ignorant volenteer (thus making them
murders, and "unworthy") The innocent and worthy women must then undertake
the duty of repopulating the world once again; there isnt very many men
around, what are they to do?
"Victor LeNettoyeur©" <exponent_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:YWVvbg==.ceba56d0eef31082427f5bc12523a212@1048233152.cotse.net...
> Roy Stogner wrote:
tim jordan
One of the problems with Mormons, like any religious fanatics, is that you
can confront them with the truth and they find some way to deny it. Take for
example the case of John D. Lee who lead the Mountain Meadow Massacre and
was the adopted son of Brigham Young. I found a pretty good book review of
Lee's life by Judith Freeman, Red Water, in the Salt Lake City Tribune,
http://www.sltrib.com/2002/jan/01272002/arts/170754.htm
The reason I post this is that it documents the process the author went
through (a Mormon herself) in discovering the oftentimes shady past of the
LDS church and how the church leadership denies and tries to cover-up
historical fact. Personally, as a self-excommunicated Mormon, I find it very
heroic for someone to critically examine their faith and seek the truth.
Regards,
Harry
tim jordan
And God supposedly commanded the church's Profit to let blacks and other
"children of Cain" into the priesthood when BYU's tax exempt status was
called into question by the feds? How convenient.
Regards,
Harry
"Kyle Ivan Blake" <Kyleiv...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:l0Iea.11$Dd4....@news.alltel.net...
Kyle Ivan Blake
Im new, I need more histroy. I believe there has been a "Prophet" speaking
for the church out of God's Grace.
Kyle
"tim jordan" <timjo...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:n3Jea.164761$F1.5862@sccrnsc04...
Kyle Ivan Blake
I for one sold drugs for 15 years and lived a horrid life, I have since
repent, and my life is blossuming. I suspect your a misrible contemptious
soul that feels "burned" by the church becasue you were excommunicated for
not obeying properly; am I correct?
Kyle Blake
"tim jordan" <timjo...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:VZIea.195093$sf5.1...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
tim jordan
Here's a link to a pro-LDS site that details the controversy:
http://www.ldshistory.net/1990/embry.htm
This site tells about 1/3rd of the truth. Your Profit, Seer, and
Revulsionator Spencer Kimball, was the person that allegedly had the
"revelation" to admit African Americans to the priesthood shortly before the
Feds were going to take away the tax exempt status of BYU, then the church.
Up until this point the LDS church had pretty similar ideas to what the
Aryan Nations believed about Blacks.
For your consideration, here are some of the more asinine quotes by Mormon
leaders regarding Blacks:
"Now WE ARE GENEROUS WITH THE NEGRO. WE ARE WILLING that the Negro have the
highest kind of education. I WOULD BE WILLING to LET every Negro DRIVE A
CADILLAC IF THEY COULD AFFORD IT. I WOULD BE WILLING that they have all the
advantages they can get out of life in the world. BUT LET THEM ENJOY THESE
THINGS AMONG THEMSELVES." LDS "Apostle" Mark E. Petersen, "Race Problems -
As They Affect The Church," Address delivered at Brigham Young University,
August 27, 1954, as quoted in Jerald and Sandra Tanner's book entitled, "The
Changing World of Mormonism," p. 307, emphasis added.
"Those who were LESS VALIANT IN PRE-EXISTENCE and who thereby had certain
spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as
the NEGROES." LDS "Apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 527, 1966
edition, emphasis added.
"You see some classes of the human family that are BLACK, UNCOUTH, UNCOMELY,
DISAGREEABLE and LOW in their habits, WILD, and seemingly DEPRIVED OF NEARLY
ALL THE BLESSINGS OF THE INTELLIGENCE that is generally bestowed upon
mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his
brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain
slew his brother. Cain might have been KILLED, and THAT WOULD HAVE PUT A
TERMINATION TO THAT LINE OF HUMAN BEINGS. This was not to be, and the Lord
put A MARK upon him, which is THE FLAT NOSE AND BLACK SKIN. Trace mankind
down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same
race -- that they should be the "servants of servants;" and they will be,
until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in
the least alter that decree." LDS "Prophet" Brigham Young, Journal of
Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 290, 1859, emphasis added.
"...[F]rom Ham sprang the race which preserved the curse in the land." LDS
Pearl of Great Price, Abraham 1:24.
Regards,
Harry Lime
http://www.harrylimetv.com/
tim jordan
Please see inside text:
> We are all human Harry, do you claim perfection?
Well as a matter-of-fact, I do. Just like old Joe Smith claimed to be
visited the angel Moroni, wore holy glasses that allowed him to decifer
"ancient Egyptian", and that camels, lions, tigers, and steel existed in
pre-Columbian America.
> I for one sold drugs for 15 years and lived a horrid life, I have since
> repent, and my life is blossuming. I suspect your a misrible contemptious
> soul that feels "burned" by the church becasue you were excommunicated for
> not obeying properly; am I correct?
I "suspect" as well that you haven't learned how to use a spell checker,
either (you misspelled "blossuming," and "misrible"). Perhaps you're a bit
dyslexic as well: I noted in my previous post that I was
*self*-excommunicated. In fact, the Bishop I met with literally begged me to
stay considering I come from a Pioneer family.
Regards,
Harry Lime
http://www.harrylimetv.com/
>
>
> Kyle Blake
>
Kyle Ivan Blake
scripture, and also too stupid to read past typos and simple spelling
errors. Who is the angel Moroni? Can you cite scripture that speaks of
him? Im kinda new and any help that you Satanists can give me will be
helpful in understanding where your coming from.
Kyle Ivan Blake
Im laughing our loud right now at your post boy. You have a long way to go
to make it into the Book of Life, this I can assure you.
"tim jordan" <timjo...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:iFNea.169549$3D1.26038@sccrnsc01...
Kyle Ivan Blake
recruit from ARM, I'm amused, you are hopeless heathen. What is your plan?
Sell enough porn that you may someday buy yourself a night or two with a
whore?
I will easily strike you down in your desperation in the End Days, you
are over weight and worthless to humanity with your severe moral degradation
and lack of obedience. I predict this, in the End Times, when the food
supply chain that disgusting humans like yourself dies off, you will come to
the Church for help, you will be rejected, as a record of your previous
actions have been noted.
Do you honestly think that being a decendant of a poineer family will
help you when you are Judged? You are as foolish in that though as you were
by gluttonizing yourself to the point of little chance for return. After
seeing your site it is easy for me to see why you have so little will over
Satan, you are one of his darkest minions, I long to destroy your "faith",
as I will so easily do so in the end days.
You still have time to repent, take your site down now, change your
ways, or face The Lords wraith.
Want to come to my house and talk about it? Gimmie a call and Ill lead you
here. 8143332569
Kyle Ivan Blake
"tim jordan" <timjo...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:iFNea.169549$3D1.26038@sccrnsc01...
Victor LeNettoyeur©
> Wow, your site is a real hoot, organized Satanism, and your attempting to
> recruit from ARM, I'm amused, you are hopeless heathen. What is your plan?
> Sell enough porn that you may someday buy yourself a night or two with a
> whore?
Harry Lime is a very special spirit, ain't he?
A couple of things:
*Nobody wants to recruit from ARM. You don't see any Satanist "missionaries"
do you?
*Most Satanists (such as myself) are perfectly willing to live-and-let-live.
My philosophy is not any more or less valid than yours, and I respect your
own religious inclination.
> I will easily strike you down in your desperation in the End Days, you
> are over weight and worthless to humanity
OK, the over weight part is prolly right (I've seen his picture too). I
don't think that makes him (or anyone) worthless to humanity though.
with your severe moral degradation
> and lack of obedience. I predict this, in the End Times, when the food
> supply chain that disgusting humans like yourself dies off, you will come to
> the Church for help, you will be rejected, as a record of your previous
> actions have been noted.
Oh geez. You are really a loving and compassionate example of the best of
Mormonism aren't you? *LMAO*
> Do you honestly think that being a decendant of a poineer family will
> help you when you are Judged? You are as foolish in that though as you were
> by gluttonizing yourself to the point of little chance for return. After
> seeing your site it is easy for me to see why you have so little will over
> Satan, you are one of his darkest minions, I long to destroy your "faith",
> as I will so easily do so in the end days.
Blah, blah, blah. You'd make a wonderful candidate for lobotomy. We can all
be grateful you've been controlled by your nutty religious beliefs.
Otherwise you might be dangerous.
> You still have time to repent, take your site down now, change your
> ways, or face The Lords wraith.
>
> Want to come to my house and talk about it? Gimmie a call and Ill lead you
> here. 8143332569
>
> Kyle Ivan Blake
You have to be a troll. No one could be this stupid. Thanks for the laughs.
Bishop Victor LeNettoyeur, Church of the Latter-Day Satanists
Victor LeNettoyeur©
> Dear Vic:
>
> One of the problems with Mormons, like any religious fanatics, is that you
> can confront them with the truth and they find some way to deny it. Take for
> example the case of John D. Lee who lead the Mountain Meadow Massacre and
> was the adopted son of Brigham Young. I found a pretty good book review of
> Lee's life by Judith Freeman, Red Water, in the Salt Lake City Tribune,
> http://www.sltrib.com/2002/jan/01272002/arts/170754.htm
This looks fantastic. Thanks!
I didn't know Lee had a 13 year old "wife" among his others, but it doesn't
surprise me.
>
> The reason I post this is that it documents the process the author went
> through (a Mormon herself) in discovering the oftentimes shady past of the
> LDS church and how the church leadership denies and tries to cover-up
> historical fact. Personally, as a self-excommunicated Mormon, I find it very
> heroic for someone to critically examine their faith and seek the truth.
I feel pretty similar. There's a tremendous amount of psychological pressure
on many Mormons to give up their own autonomy. Under the circumstances, I
can't help but admire one who would give up on such a support system in
order to search for a less repressive mindset.
Victor
tim jordan
> Wow, a Bishop that would beg for you to stay, and you are ignorant of
> scripture, and also too stupid to read past typos and simple spelling
> errors.
Despite what you may think, this is exactly what happened. By the way, how
do explain *your* ignorance of how the church relented on having blacks and
other people of color in the priesthood?
You call me a dunce, yet you don't answer the questions I've asked or
explained the quotes that I have from LDS leaders spouting racist epithets
against blacks and others -- how predictable.
> Who is the angel Moroni? Can you cite scripture that speaks of
> him? Im kinda new and any help that you Satanists can give me will be
> helpful in understanding where your coming from.
The angel Moroni is a figment of your imagination. Being an Atheist, I don't
believe *any* of the LDS scribblings are scripture (The BM -- appropriate I
think, D&C, or anything else you care to cite). If you want to be overly
technical, Moroni was referred first to as a "messenger" (JSH 1:44, 46, 47,
49, 50, 52, 53, 54, 59, 60). Oddly, later Jumpin' Joe did refer to Moroni as
an angel described as a "messenger of God" (D&C 128:20). We don't want to
get into inconsistencies in the LDS religion do we? And, yes, I'm fully
aware of the fact that LDSers refer to Moroni as the "angel Moroni" because
of his role as a messenger from God to Joseph Smith, not necessarily as an
"angel".
Just to indulge you: "After I had retired to my bed for the night, I betook
myself to prayer and supplication to Almighty God for forgiveness of all my
sins and follies, and also for a manifestation to me, that I might know of
my state and standing before him.. While I was thus in the act of calling
upon God, I discovered a light appearing in my room, which continued to
increase until the room was lighter than at noonday, when immediately a
personage appeared at my bedside, standing in the air.. He had on a loose
robe of most exquisite whiteness. It was a whiteness beyond anything earthly
I had ever seen.. His hands were naked, and his arms also, a little above
the wrist; so, also, were his feet naked, as were his legs, a little above
the ankles. His head and neck were also bare.. His whole person was glorious
beyond description, and his countenance truly like lightning [JS-H 1:29-32].
So before you try little silly tricks, you might want to study your religion
a bit more fully. I guess due to the fact that you're an obvious neophyte in
LDS circles, you can't answer the questions I've presented here.
> Im laughing our loud right now at your post boy. You have a long way to
go
> to make it into the Book of Life, this I can assure you.
And you'll never make it to Kolob either, Sparky, because it simply doesn't
exist.
tim jordan
Please see inside text:
>> Wow, your site is a real hoot, organized Satanism, and your attempting to
recruit from ARM, I'm amused, you are hopeless heathen. What is your plan?
Sell enough porn that you may someday buy yourself a night or two with a
whore?<<
No, I'm not trying to recruit anybody. This was crossposted to alt.satanism
so I responded. The reason I sell porno is so that I can afford to give your
mom and sister a facial and post it as a pay-per-view on my website.
>> I will easily strike you down in your desperation in the End Days, you
are over weight and worthless to humanity with your severe moral degradation
and lack of obedience. I predict this, in the End Times, when the food
supply chain that disgusting humans like yourself dies off, you will come to
the Church for help, you will be rejected, as a record of your previous
actions have been noted.<<
Whoa, cowboy. Ever consider that due to the fact that I'm so fat I'll
survive much longer than any six month supply of food you've got hunkered
away?
> >Do you honestly think that being a decendant of a poineer family will
help you when you are Judged?<<
Being an Atheist, I don't worry about being "Judged." By the way, it's
spelled "pioneer."
>>You are as foolish in that though as you were by gluttonizing yourself to
the point of little chance for return. After seeing your site it is easy
for me to see why you have so little will over Satan, you are one of his
darkest minions, I long to destroy your "faith", as I will so easily do so
in the end days.<<
Cool. As being one of the darkest minions do I get any special type of
garments to wear?
>>You still have time to repent, take your site down now, change your ways,
or face The Lords wraith.<<
I think you meant "wrath."
>>Want to come to my house and talk about it? Gimmie a call and Ill lead you
here.8143332569<<
Okay, just let me know where and when.
tim jordan
Forgot to ask you why the hell do you think I'd ever go to Meadville,
Pennsylvania?
Regards,
Harry
Cat Asstrophy
> Who is the angel Moroni?
Actually, I thought the angel was a SHE.
See Karen Back in Plan 10 from Outer Space (1969)!
The movie has nothing to do with "Plan 9" by Ed Wood. It is Science Fiction
satire of Mormon theology. If you don't know much about Mormon theology and
the culture of the Mormon church, the movie is not going to make a whole lot
of sense to you.
If you know "something" about Moronism culture and theology, the movie is
such a hoot, you will be rolling on the floor in hysteria. It even has the
"magic underwear" in it, worn by a gay guy.
The movie is about how Brigham Young's 26th wife was actually an alien
(Played by Karen Black) and how she takes her revenge on the inhabitants of
Utah as told by a young woman writer, described in the "Plaque of Nehor".
It's difficult to find, but worth seeking out.
Any ex-moron will want to own it.
Cat Asstrophy
This guy is really a nut.
Did you call him?
LOL
Sir Chaos
contribution to your site!
"After seeing your site it is easy for me to see why you have so
little will over Satan, you are one of his darkest minions..."
-Kyle Ivan Blake
That's worth making a quotes page!
-Sir Chaos
--
"I have made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord, make my
enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it."
- Voltaire
Kyle Ivan Blake
> Kyle Ivan Blake wrote:
>
> > Wow, your site is a real hoot, organized Satanism, and your attempting
to
> > recruit from ARM, I'm amused, you are hopeless heathen. What is your
plan?
> > Sell enough porn that you may someday buy yourself a night or two with a
> > whore?
>
> Harry Lime is a very special spirit, ain't he?
>
> A couple of things:
>
> *Nobody wants to recruit from ARM. You don't see any Satanist
"missionaries"
> do you?
Yes, your one, and that fat pile of satan is also. What is your purpose on
this board again?
>
> *Most Satanists (such as myself) are perfectly willing to
live-and-let-live.
> My philosophy is not any more or less valid than yours, and I respect your
> own religious inclination.
Yes, Hell does need good men like yourselves to fill its ranks, ENJOY!
>
> > I will easily strike you down in your desperation in the End Days,
you
> > are over weight and worthless to humanity
>
> OK, the over weight part is prolly right (I've seen his picture too). I
> don't think that makes him (or anyone) worthless to humanity though.
Your right, even Darth Vader (I hate to use movie refernces) had some
goodness and purpose left inside him.
>
> with your severe moral degradation
> > and lack of obedience. I predict this, in the End Times, when the food
> > supply chain that disgusting humans like yourself dies off, you will
come to
> > the Church for help, you will be rejected, as a record of your previous
> > actions have been noted.
>
> Oh geez. You are really a loving and compassionate example of the best of
> Mormonism aren't you? *LMAO*
Yes, God has commanded us to Judge Rightiously. Your also wrong in assuming
I lack compassion for him, infact, he is the type I have the most compassion
for, I have to, in order to fullfill my destiny.
>
> > Do you honestly think that being a decendant of a poineer family
will
> > help you when you are Judged? You are as foolish in that though as you
were
> > by gluttonizing yourself to the point of little chance for return.
After
> > seeing your site it is easy for me to see why you have so little will
over
> > Satan, you are one of his darkest minions, I long to destroy your
"faith",
> > as I will so easily do so in the end days.
>
> Blah, blah, blah. You'd make a wonderful candidate for lobotomy. We can
all
> be grateful you've been controlled by your nutty religious beliefs.
> Otherwise you might be dangerous.
Blah Blah Blah exactly, Im no danger, only to one who comes to me agressive,
I will strike the down with avengance!
>
> > You still have time to repent, take your site down now, change your
> > ways, or face The Lords wraith.
> >
> > Want to come to my house and talk about it? Gimmie a call and Ill lead
you
> > here. 8143332569
> >
> > Kyle Ivan Blake
>
> You have to be a troll. No one could be this stupid. Thanks for the
laughs.
Yes, I am a board troll, sent here to re-establish order to this board, and
to also represent my beliefs to the best of my ability, I will probally be
here to stay, so get used to me.
Kyle Ivan Blake
Soon to be baptised into the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-Day Saints! I
have already been invited into the priesthood also!
My region lacks good priests, I hope I can do a good job:)
Victor LeNettoyeur©
Please see inside text...
tim jordan wrote:
> Dear Kyle:
>
*snip*
> And you'll never make it to Kolob either, Sparky, because it simply doesn't
> exist.
Does this mean I don't get Europa after I die?
And here I was planning to don the magic jammies and send your porn site
ten-percent kickbacks. I feel so cheated!
Victor
--
"...small groups (from ten to fifty individuals) create the best possible
living conditions for the group as well as for the single animal; and man is
no exception in this respect."
-Carl Jung
dangerous1
You'll do fine. You seem like the perfect mormon type.
--
Cheers,
Dangerous1
Don Marchant
Dangerous1.com
I was only joking. Really.
Kyle Ivan Blake
Kyle Ivan Blake
Your names explain your intent and personality so well btw.
"Cat Asstrophy" <sata...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:KqRea.1481$Ko.78...@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
tim jordan
Please see inside:
<snip>
>> Does this mean I don't get Europa after I die?
If only that were true. Actually, I'd like an island populated with the
Swedish Bikini Team who really are into fat guys.
>>And here I was planning to don the magic jammies and send your porn site
ten-percent kickbacks. I feel so cheated!<<
You'll surely note that Kyle can't address the issues I've brought up and
resorts to silly personal attacks. Of course, I didn't expect differently.
Funny, he didn't address the issues I presented in the BM, the D&C, or any
other stuff the Mormons consider their scripture.
Cat Asstrophy
> Your names explain your intent and personality so well btw.
>
Helen
>
>
> Im laughing our loud right now at your post boy. You have a long way to
go
> to make it into the Book of Life, this I can assure you.
>
>
Who is this man??
Lee Paulson
>
> "Victor LeNettoyeur©" <exponent_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:YWVvbg==.ab45448f04cb82f84c7fdaadd37827e9@1048301332.cotse.net...
> > Kyle Ivan Blake wrote:
> >
Oh dear. Kyle, you had better hope the church cyberspies don't see your
postings. They might have a problem with your membership.
--
Regards,
Lee, The James, uM, & GW
Evolution is just a theory. So is gravity.
Lee Paulson
> What are you people doing this board again?
>
> Kyle Ivan Blake
>
> Your names explain your intent and personality so well btw.
Oh geez. God sent you to arm to post until the END TIMES. But he forgot to
tell you about cross-posting. Must have been his little joke.
Kyle Ivan Blake
"Lee Paulson" <lrpa...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:b5kg31$2b45hn$1...@ID-146277.news.dfncis.de...
You could be right, I may be forced to humble myself and retract certain
statements I have made, O NO IM SCARED! <--sarcasm
Bood_Samel
more about mormon history then the mormons themselves, who in turn
can't defend against or refute the claims other then with what amounts
to "I know you are, but what am I?"
xyibae
Kyle, don't be scared of 'sarcasm'. Just remember: sticks and stones
may break my bones but words will never hurt me. -xyibae
Kyle Ivan Blake
"Cat Asstrophy" <sata...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:DP9fa.576$5A5.53...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
Cat Asstrophy
Kyle Ivan Blake <Kyleiv...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:9gvfa.851$Dd4.2...@news.alltel.net...
Poop Dogg
>Thanks, you Satanist!
I've seen you in other groups. You think everyone is a Satanist.
Helen
"Poop Dogg" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:eYycnQokm-p...@bravo.net...
It's called projection.......
bune...@hotmail.com
> news:FTTea.346$Dd4....@news.alltel.net...
> >
> > "Victor LeNettoyeur©" <exponent_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:YWVvbg==.ab45448f04cb82f84c7fdaadd37827e9@1048301332.cotse.net...
> > > Kyle Ivan Blake wrote:
*snip*
> > > > Kyle Ivan Blake
> > >
> > > You have to be a troll. No one could be this stupid. Thanks for the
> > laughs.
> >
> > Yes, I am a board troll, sent here to re-establish order to this board,
> and
> > to also represent my beliefs to the best of my ability, I will probally be
> > here to stay, so get used to me.
> >
> > Kyle Ivan Blake
> >
> > Soon to be baptised into the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-Day Saints! I
> > have already been invited into the priesthood also!
> > My region lacks good priests, I hope I can do a good job:)
> >
> Oh dear. Kyle, you had better hope the church cyberspies don't see your
> postings. They might have a problem with your membership.
>--
>Regards,
>Lee, The James, uM, & GW
>
>Evolution is just a theory. So is gravity.
Some of us who are already members, are desperately hoping. The
thought that someone like this could get a calling to primary where he
could sit and scope out which of the CTR's are ready to marry and
which aren't, makes my skin crawl, and I want to vomit up everything
I've _ever_ eaten. The problem is that many bishops and so on want to
believe the facade the investigator adopts during their interviews,
and chalk up any strange behaviors to nerves, rather than recognizing
a pervert when they see one.
BTW, why is this thread being cross-posted to alt.satanism?
Helen
<bune...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:31d752f1.03032...@posting.google.com...
> "Lee Paulson" <lrpa...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:<b5kg31$2b45hn$1...@ID-146277.news.dfncis.de>...
> > "Kyle Ivan Blake" <Kyleiv...@msn.com> wrote in message
> > news:FTTea.346$Dd4....@news.alltel.net...
> > >
> > > "Victor LeNettoyeur©" <exponent_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:YWVvbg==.ab45448f04cb82f84c7fdaadd37827e9@1048301332.cotse.net...
Some of us who are already members, are desperately hoping. The
> thought that someone like this could get a calling to primary where he
> could sit and scope out which of the CTR's are ready to marry and
> which aren't, makes my skin crawl, and I want to vomit up everything
> I've _ever_ eaten. The problem is that many bishops and so on want to
> believe the facade the investigator adopts during their interviews,
> and chalk up any strange behaviors to nerves, rather than recognizing
> a pervert when they see one.
>
> BTW, why is this thread being cross-posted to alt.satanism?
Because I am sure that this guy is just a troll...that's why he is lurking
about these groups. Just goading people for
the fun of it. I seriously doubt that he is a member of the church...