Baseball Substitution Question
Michael Noschese
in 1986. In a Mets-Reds extra inning game, there was a bench clearing
brawl. After the various ejections the Mets were left with only 8
positional players. Davey Johnson inserted Roger McDowell and Jesse Orosco
into the game. I believe that one would play an inning at Right Field and
the other would pitch. This is the only time I recall it. Others may know
more.
Ryan Robbins
Mike Myers wrote in message <37168735...@home.com>...
>I have a question concerning the substitution rules of major league
>baseball. A friend and I had a heated debate over this issue.
>
>...I then move my pitcher to
>the DH position, substituting out the actual DH, and bring in my new
>pitcher from the opposite side to pitch. If the opposition counters
>again, in the next at-bat, with a pinch-hitter from the opposite side, I
>simply move my current pitcher to the DH position and my previous
>pitcher back to the mound. This is particularly effective if you have
>two fireballers in the same game. Hitters are just neutered.
You can't technically move the pitcher to the DH position. What you're
really doing is terminating the role of DH for the game.
It sounds like you have the following scenario:
Smith is pitching, Stewart is the DH, Stanley is in the bullpen. You want to
remove Smith from the mound and have him replace Stewart in the lineup. OK.
But you also bring Stanley in to pitch. That's not OK. Stanley must now bat
for himself; the DH is gone.
>All this appears to be saying is that a pitcher cannot assume more than
>one non-pitcher position during the same inning, which does not address
>my original question. Can pitchers ever return to the mound when
>re-positioned in the field?
A pitcher can move to another position on the field, but when he does so the
DH is terminated. The old pitcher must bat in the former DH's slot and the
new pitcher must bat in the slot formerly occupied by the player the old
pitcher replaced in the field.
Mike Myers
baseball. A friend and I had a heated debate over this issue.
We all know that a player, once removed from a game, cannot return later
in the game. In particular, a pitcher, removed from the game in favour
of a relief pitcher, cannot return to action later in the same game.
What about position adjustments, however, among players already in the
lineup? I contend that positional adjustments, including all infielders
and outfielders is completely legal. A pitcher is an infielder and he
may be called upon at any time to play another position without
forfeiting his right to return later as pitcher. I have found this
strategy to be particularly effective in video games when pitching in
close games in later innings. Why? Because righty vs lefty matchups
can be completely monopolized by the pitching team. Playing Earl Weaver
Baseball, if I have a small lead in the eighth, and the opposition
pinches in a hitter from the opposite side, I then move my pitcher to
the DH position, substituting out the actual DH, and bring in my new
pitcher from the opposite side to pitch. If the opposition counters
again, in the next at-bat, with a pinch-hitter from the opposite side, I
simply move my current pitcher to the DH position and my previous
pitcher back to the mound. This is particularly effective if you have
two fireballers in the same game. Hitters are just neutered.
Granted, a little meat is cut out of the lineup because a good hitting
DH has effectively disappeared, but who cares if he's not close to
coming to the plate and you have the lead in any case. In the worst
case, you could always substitute out one of your pitchers in favour of
a good hitter.
My friend argued that, although the video game permits this, actual
rules of major league baseball do not. I consulted the "1998 Official
Rules of Major League Baseball". In here, the only reference I could
find to resolve this dispute was a vague paragraph under game
preliminaries. Rule 3.03 states: "A pitcher may change to another
position only once during the same inning; e.g. the pitcher will not be
allowed to assume a position other than a pitcher more than once in the
same inning."
All this appears to be saying is that a pitcher cannot assume more than
one non-pitcher position during the same inning, which does not address
my original question. Can pitchers ever return to the mound when
re-positioned in the field? The official rules only indicate that
substitutes must be clearly announced and the batting order cannot
change with the exception of an inserted substitute.
Admitteldy, I have never seen this tactic employed in the major leagues,
but baseball software permits it. Are managers just not looking closely
enough at the rules and avoiding good strategy?
Any feedback would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Mike
rpear...@hotmail.com
it. On June 6, 1989, to begin the bottom of the ninth, Chuck Crim entered
the game against Toronto at Skydome. He faced Fred McGriff (Double to
right), Rance Mulliniks (PH for Pat Borders, single to left, moving McGriff
to third), Lloyd Moseby (strike-out, swinging), and Ernie Whitt (PH for Bob
Brenly, base on balls to load the bases). Crim was moved to first base,
taking Brock out of the game, and forfeiting the DH position for Milwaukee).
Tony Fossas was brought in to face Nelson Liriano, who singles to centre,
scoring McGriff. Fossas was then removed from the game to face Tom Lawless
(PH for Rob Ducey, Fly out to centre) and then Tony Fernandez, who stuck out
swinging to end the game. Crim was credited with the save. (No, I didn't
remember all of these details off hand - I remembered the game, and went to
my scorebook for the details.)
This type of move is unusual, but not illegal. In fact, a few days earlier,
I believe against Houston, Tommy Lasorda had done a similar move with
Fernando Valenzuela, although, of course, losing the DH did not enter into
that equation.
I hope that this answers your question.
Reva Pearlston
Toronto
In article <37168735...@home.com>,
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Wwwmaawww
>From: Mike Myers
>if I have a small lead in the eighth, and the opposition
>pinches in a hitter from the opposite side, I then move my pitcher to
>the DH position, substituting out the actual DH, and bring in my new
>pitcher from the opposite side to pitch.
You can move a pitcher to another position (as Davey Johnson did with Roger
McDowell and Jesse Orosco), but you can't move him to DH and allow him to pitch
again. In fact, I'm not sure any fielder is allowed to replace the DH. And if
the DH plays the field, his team forfeits use of a DH for the remainder of the
game.
Someone will respond with a firmer answer from the rulebook.
rcad...@my-dejanews.com
Mike Myers <mmy...@home.com> wrote:
> I have a question concerning the substitution rules of major league
> baseball. A friend and I had a heated debate over this issue.
>
> We all know that a player, once removed from a game, cannot return later
> in the game. In particular, a pitcher, removed from the game in favour
> of a relief pitcher, cannot return to action later in the same game.
> What about position adjustments, however, among players already in the
> lineup? I contend that positional adjustments, including all infielders
> and outfielders is completely legal. A pitcher is an infielder and he
> may be called upon at any time to play another position without
> forfeiting his right to return later as pitcher. I have found this
> strategy to be particularly effective in video games when pitching in
> close games in later innings. Why? Because righty vs lefty matchups
> can be completely monopolized by the pitching team. Playing Earl Weaver
> pinches in a hitter from the opposite side, I then move my pitcher to
> the DH position, substituting out the actual DH, and bring in my new
You can't move the pitcher to DH. You can move the DH to the game, but then
you no longer have a DH, and the pitcher enters the batting order in place of
the player taken off the field when the DH enters the game.
Earl Weaver for a while used to put the next day's starting pitcher in the
lineup at DH. He would then pinch hit the first at bat, and would put
whoever was best for that situation at DH, and keep the other team in the
dark about who would DH first. The rules were changed to make that illegal
however.
Rich Cadieux
Comish4lif
I also recall that Reds Manager, Pete Rose, protested the game and should have
won based on the validity of his protest. After returning from his OF post, one
of the Mets pitchers (I don't recall whether it was Orosco or McDoweel) was
given warmup pitches for the second time in the inning. Each time the Mets
swapped these guys in, they took ~8 warmup pitches. This is not allowed under
therules. The warmups are for players entering the game (not swapping in from
the OF).
One more note on this game. The Mets other OF was a very old, barely mobile
Rusty Staub. The Mets were using the pitchers (Orosco/McDowell) in the pull
outfiled slot (Right field for a lefty batter and vice versa) and Staub in the
other side. Using the pitcher as the more effective OF Oddly enough, Staub
ended up making a diving/linging grab late in the game!
>>>>----------------------------------------|>
Mark Wolven --- -comis...@aol.com
Beloved Commissioner-for-Life
HUB CITY ROTISSERIE LEAGUE
http://members.aol.com/comish4lif/hcrl.htm
David Brazeal
>baseball. A friend and I had a heated debate over this issue.
>
>We all know that a player, once removed from a game, cannot return later
>in the game. In particular, a pitcher, removed from the game in favour
>of a relief pitcher, cannot return to action later in the same game.
>What about position adjustments, however, among players already in the
>lineup
Whitey Herzog did this several times in 1985, when he had the
bullpen-by-committee, before Todd Worrell was called up late in the season.
He used Ken Dayley (left-handed) and Jeff Lahti (right-handed), and he'd
usually start the inning with Lahti against a right-hander... then bring in
Dayley against a lefty, shifting Lahti to right field, I believe. Then
Lahti would come back in to finish the inning. I vaguely recall Lahti
actually getting a putout in the outfield, but that could be a lingering
memory from a nightmare during that pennant race.
davidb
Ryan Robbins
Comish4lif wrote in message <19990416104546...@ng26.aol.com>...
>>You are right in this argument.
As I recall, the original poster's question dealt with moving the pitcher to
designated hitter -- you can't do that.
>I also recall that Reds Manager, Pete Rose, protested the game and should
have
>won based on the validity of his protest. After returning from his OF post,
one
>of the Mets pitchers (I don't recall whether it was Orosco or McDoweel) was
>given warmup pitches for the second time in the inning. Each time the Mets
>swapped these guys in, they took ~8 warmup pitches. This is not allowed
under
>therules. The warmups are for players entering the game (not swapping in
from
>the OF).
This is not true. The rulebook specifically states pitchers receive eight
warm-ups when relieving another pitcher. It does not distinguish whether the
new pitcher has already pitched in the game.
Under the Rule 8.03 provision "a league by its own action may limit the
number of preparatory pitches to less than eight," the American League has
adopted a rule allowing pitchers who have already been in the game as
pitcher to have five warm-ups. The National League is silent on this.
Note: Even if Rose had been right (he was not), he would not have
necessarily won the protest. Protests are not upheld if the outcome of the
game was not affected by the violation.
Arthur Wohlwill
>From: Mike Myers <mmy...@home.com>
>Subject: Baseball Substitution Question
>Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 00:44:00 GMT
>same inning."
>All this appears to be saying is that a pitcher cannot assume more than
>one non-pitcher position during the same inning, which does not address
>my original question. Can pitchers ever return to the mound when
>re-positioned in the field? The official rules only indicate that
>substitutes must be clearly announced and the batting order cannot
>change with the exception of an inserted substitute.
>Admitteldy, I have never seen this tactic employed in the major leagues,
>but baseball software permits it. Are managers just not looking closely
>enough at the rules and avoiding good strategy?
I have seen a game in which a pitcher moved from pitcher to
outfield and then back to pitcher in the same inning. I cant recall the
specifics, but I think it was in the 70's or early 80's.
Arthur Wohlwill adwo...@UIC.EDU
Wwwmaawww
>From: comis...@aol.com (Comish4lif)
>One more note on this game. The Mets other OF was a very old, barely mobile
>Rusty Staub. The Mets were using the pitchers (Orosco/McDowell) in the pull
>outfiled slot (Right field for a lefty batter and vice versa) and Staub in
>the
>other side. Using the pitcher as the more effective OF Oddly enough, Staub
>ended up making a diving/linging grab late in the game!
Believe it or not, I think you are confusing two different games. So, let's
test my memory.
The Orosco/McDowell game was in 1985 or 1986 against the Reds. It went about
15 innings, because Dave Parker dropped what would have been a game-ending fly
ball in the 9th.
The Staub incident was in 1984 against the Pirates. It was a crazy game. (For
example, Jose DeLeon gave up four runs on two hits, one a Strawberry grand
slam, in the first inning, then pitched nine no-hit innings!) What the Mets
did with Staub late in the game was shift him between leftfield and rightfield,
moving him away from the hitter's pull field. But, some righthanded batter
blooped a popup down the rightfield line, and Staub made a great diving/sliding
catch!
Can anyone check my facts?
Dale Hicks
Mike Myers <mmy...@home.com> wrote in article <37168735...@home.com>...
>
> Playing Earl Weaver
> Baseball, if I have a small lead in the eighth, and the opposition
> pinches in a hitter from the opposite side, I then move my pitcher to
> the DH position, substituting out the actual DH, and bring in my new
> pitcher from the opposite side to pitch.
>
That Earl. Always looking for a loophole.
He is the one that required all DH's to take at least one AB, right?
By switching his DH in his first AB depending on who the pitcher was?
--
Cranial Crusader dhi...@gibralter.net
No9325976
>test my memory.
>
>The Orosco/McDowell game was in 1985 or 1986 against the Reds. It went about
>15 innings, because Dave Parker dropped what would have been a game-ending
>fly
>ball in the 9th.
>
I remembered Gary Carter talking about this game in his autobiography, so I
looked it up. It was in July 1986.
The brawl occured in the top of the 9th inning with a 3-3 tie. Eric Davis stole
third and got into a shoving match with 3B Ray Knight, which escalated into a
bench clearing brawl. When things were finally settled, Davis, Knight, and
Kevin Mitchell were thrown out of the game, leaving the Mets with no third
baseman (HoJo was playing SS). So Davey plays Carter at third (!), Ed Hearn at
catcher, and brings in Roger McDowell to play RF.
In the 10th, Jesse Orosco is brought in to start the inning, and that's when
the McDowell/Orosco P-LF-RF (with Mookie Wilson as the other corner outfielder)
rotation begins. The Mets won the game in the 14th by a homerun from HoJo.
Umpire Doug Harvey told Rose that there was nothing he could do about the 8
warm-up tosses that Orosco and McDowell were throwing almost everytime they
came in; the rules state that a pitcher is allowed to use them every time he
enters the game. Rose protested the game but lost.
-- --
Tim
rpear...@hotmail.com
Note: Protests are very,very rarely upheld no matter what the circumstances.
In fact, the last protest that I remember being upheld was the Pine Tar game
(George Brett's bat, at Yankee Stadium, about 15 or so years ago), although
someone may remember a more recent protest that has been upheld. In fact,
though, if the protesting team wims the game, the protest is automatically
disregarded.
Wwwmaawww
>The brawl occured in the top of the 9th inning with a 3-3 tie. Eric Davis
>stole
>third and got into a shoving match with 3B Ray Knight, which escalated into a
>bench clearing brawl. When things were finally settled, Davis, Knight, and
>Kevin Mitchell were thrown out of the game, leaving the Mets with no third
>baseman
You know, I THOUGHT that was the game with the famous Ray Knight - Erci Davis
brawl, but I didn't add it to my description because I thought I might be
mixing up two different games. Makes sense, though. Here in New York, this
was the reason for Ray Knight being perceived as a sparkplug, providing veteran
leadership, which carried through to the World Series, when he won the Series
MVP Award.
Eric Smith
>Earl Weaver for a while used to put the next day's starting pitcher in the
>lineup at DH. He would then pinch hit the first at bat, and would put
>whoever was best for that situation at DH, and keep the other team in the
>dark about who would DH first. The rules were changed to make that illegal
>however.
It wasn't to keep the other team in the dark about who would DH. The reason
was that there was a slim possibility the opposing pitcher might get knocked
out in the first inning, before his DH came to bat. For example, if the
other team starts a righthander and Weaver used a lefthander as DH, the
pitcher might get knocked out and replaced by a lefthander. Then Weaver
would be forced to pinch hit for his DH in his first at-bat, and lose a
position player. By first listing his next day's starting pitcher as DH,
he was sure not to lose an available player in that low probability
situation.
Weaver complained that the rule was changed only because what he was doing
was screwing up batting stats, according to the league. Every first AB by
his DH then became officially a pinch hitting AB, and the league said it
skewed the pinch hitting stats. Weaver didn't see that as a reason for
them to take a strategic move away form him.
-----
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rpear...@hotmail.com
> >pinches in a hitter from the opposite side, I then move my pitcher to
> >the DH position, substituting out the actual DH, and bring in my new
> >pitcher from the opposite side to pitch.
>
Roger
> McDowell and Jesse Orosco), but you can't move him to DH and allow
him to pitch
> again. In fact, I'm not sure any fielder is allowed to replace the
DH.
I can add this much without even checking the book - a fielder cannot
move into the DH spot, and if the DH replaces someone in the field, the
pitcher bats in the spot that had been taken by the player being
replaced.
Reva
And if
> the DH plays the field, his team forfeits use of a DH for the
remainder of the
> game.
>
> Someone will respond with a firmer answer from the rulebook.
>
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Ryan Robbins
TT <tre...@removethis.aol.com> wrote in message
news:37234d2c...@news.cwix.com...
> Yes, if he starts the inning, you can move him off the mound to
> another position, then bring him back as the pitcher. He must then
> either finish the inning on the mound, or you must remove him from the
> game.
The rulebook is silent on whether the pitcher must leave the game as a
player. The American League allows the pitcher to assume another position,
but he cannot pitch again in the game.
Eric Smith
>TT <tre...@removethis.aol.com> wrote
>>Yes, if he starts the inning, you can move him off the mound to
>>another position, then bring him back as the pitcher. He must then
>>either finish the inning on the mound, or you must remove him from the
>>game.
>The rulebook is silent on whether the pitcher must leave the game as a
>player. The American League allows the pitcher to assume another position,
>but he cannot pitch again in the game.
Are you sure about that? Rule 3.03 says:
A pitcher may change to another position only once during the same
inning; e.g. the pitcher *will not be allowed to assume a position
other than a pitcher* more than once in the same inning.
[emphasis added]
That would say to me that you just can't move a pitcher to another
position more than once in an inning. If the argument is that once
he moves to another position he's no longer a pitcher, it seems that
would also apply the first time he's moved and the rule would make
no sense at all. To be consistent, once a player is a pitcher he has
to still be considered a pitcher no matter what other position he
goes to.