Heriot-Watt University
Peter Glaeser
Hey folks,
I've been watching this huge discussion about Heriot-Watt University and I
don't think it'll come to an end any time soon. I am considering buying my
first course some time soon after the summer. To my mind, their MBA degree
is definitely worth the time, effort and money.
True, they don't require a Bachelor's or work experience or anything like
that. I am a 1st-semester law student from Germany (20 years young, just got
out of the military, we still have the draft). I took the GRE Revised
Political Science subject test in April and scored a 500 (on a 200-900
scale). Regents College (SUNY) would give me up to 24 semester credits for
that. I have neither taken Political Science courses before nor studied for
the test. I just have gained enough experience. See, the point is that it
doesn't matter how you learn it. Important is that you know it. That's the
concept of getting degrees nontraditionally, for example by distance
learning.
True, it's not a U.S. school so the question of accreditation is a little
harder to answer. But see, the private Heriot-Watt University was founded in
the 19th century. Many people know Edinburgh School of Business. This is not
a phony degree mill or anything. You have to work hard, pass hard tests, and
if you fail any of the compulsory courses twice you're out.
I encourage everybody who wants to get an MBA by distance learning to think
about Heriot-Watt. It's one of the most inexpensive programs (except for the
phony ones), it requires hard work (which means you actually learn a lot)
and you have to pass hard tests (which means you have to present your
abilities).
I really don't know what's wrong with HW. So please, anyone who is not as
excited about their program as me, please reply to this message and show me
all the evil sides of Heriot-Watt.
Peter
Wes & Linda Grady
I am totally amazed. A 20 year old individual, without any prior course
work scores a 500 on the Graduate Record Exam, multiple choice exam, and
the Regents College is prepared to give him 24 credits for it. That is
the equivalent of 8 courses in the subject area and in most schools,
equal to the number of courses that are required to complete a major.
In my opinion, that not only seems excessive, it reflects poorly upon
the degree that might be awarded. One multiple choice exam, with no
prior course work and no preparation is not worth 24 credits in any
program.
Wes
Chip White
In article <356C7C...@mailzone.com>,
Here we go again.
Regulars will remember that Wes has already stated that he doesn't believe
that Regents or TESC offer anything other than "degrees for people who can't
cut it at a real school" (paraphrasing mine), and that "any school that
grants a degree for work solely done elsewhere has no academic integrity"
(paraphrasing again mine), so his bias against non-traditional education has
already been shown.
I personally know of a number of 18 to 20 year olds that can run circles
around older folks, because they have been intellectually curious since
their early youth, have engaged themselves in many varied activities, and
have learned a great deal. (I live in a college town surrounding a small,
highly respected liberal arts college.)
Age alone has little or no bearing on intellectual pursuit, knowledge, or
ability. *Experience* makes a difference, but experience and knowledge can
be gained from a variety of sources.
As has often been stated, there are plenty of "rigor-challenged" schools
that are regionally accredited... and I certainly wouldn't hold the academic
knowledge represented by a degree from the least rigorous regionally
accredited school against a Harvard or Yale or Brown degree... but both are
nonetheless accredited, and represent a significant degree of effort.
If the test in question accurately represents knowledge that would be gained
by someone taking six to eight courses at a non-rigorous school (which, I
think, is entirely possible), then the credits awarded are indeed valid and
reasonable.
TO be sure, the knowledge gained from a course taken at University of the
Intelligence Challenged and the same course taken at Harvard will in all
liklihood be significantly different, both in content and in knowledge
gained, but if both schools have been judged by their respective regional
accreditors to have programs worthy of college credits, then who are we to
sit in judgement?
Chip White
Wes & Linda Grady
Chip that is plain BS and you know it. Eight courses at any college or
university will require the writing of papers, extensive reading and
discussion of complex idea in the subject area. Because someone is able
to pass a single multiple choice exam does not suggest that he or she
has reached the level of expertise in that subject to be awarded 24
credits and if you think otherwise then I have to believe that you are
not seeking an education, but only to accumulate credits and obtain a
degree. The first time this wonder-boy gets into a real discussion with
someone familiar with political science, I suspect he will come off
looking rather poorly.
Wes
Daniel R. Henderson
I didn't realize my associates degree from the Community College of the Air
Force [CCAF] (regionally accredited by SACS) was worthless because they
don't offer any courses. Wow, I guess when I was considering Regents as an
alternative, I must have been really stupid! You see, my military service
has taken me all over the world, and with 12 years and six colleges, still
no degree, and opportunity like Regents looked like a decent opportunity. I
suppose since Park College (because of their military clients) only requires
24 semester hours for residency, the degrees they offer must somehow be less
than real "traditional universities". I suppose if I told you I did my
Advanced Accounting homework in a foxhole while holding a flashlight, you
will tell me the professor was too easy on me. I'm sure working 12 hour
shifts, deploying to Saudi and Kuwait, AND earning AAS, BS and an MBA is
sooo much easier than sitting on your fat <deleted> in an air conditioned
traditional {holier than thou} program.
It took me from 1979 to 1996 to get from HS to MBA, it would not have been
possible without help (in the form of student centered administrators and
teachers) for me to accomplish that while on active military duty (not your
ordinary 9-5 job). It took some non traditional thinkers to get me from
point A to point B. I could not have done it on my own.
Chip White wrote in message <6ki0a3$r...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>...
:In article <356C7C...@mailzone.com>,
Wes & Linda Grady
I guess I should stand up and salute because you chose to enter the
military rather than go to school or get a civilian job. Sorry, pal,
been there and done that and it doesn't cut you any slack here. You
want a BS degree then show me that you have done equivalent work as
someone who spent four years in a traditional program, earning credits
one course at a time, meeting deadline, writing papers and reading long
assignments and, yes, taking tests. I stand by my original post, 24
credits for passing a GRE is ludicrous and if that is the manner of
distance education you are seeking then are shortchanging yourself as
well as the program you seek. And the first time you get yourself into
a discussion with someone who worked his way through a traditional
program and took those 8 courses, you will wish the hell you had taken
them as well.
And, for your information I graduated from High School in 1963 and spent
my time in funny little places like Vietnam and Thailand. Saudi Arabia
and Kuwait my great aunt Matilda. Step up and get shot at by people who
know what they are doing. I have 40 friends' names carved on a black
wall in Washington and nearly ended up there myself, so if you are
looking for credit for camping out in the desert for a few months, look
elsewhere, I am not impressed. I started my college experience in 1969
and didn't finish until 1979. I managed to support myself and my family
while earning three degrees in the traditional manner and I am tired of
listing to the whiners and complainers and those who don't want to do
the work but want the credit. You want 24 credits for passing one
fucking multiple choice exam and then have the nerve to start throwing
insults at me? Grow up, pal.
Wes
Lawrie Miller
Wes & Linda Grady wrote:
> Chip that is plain BS and you know it. Eight courses at any college or
> university will require the writing of papers, extensive reading and
> discussion of complex idea in the subject area. Because someone is able
> to pass a single multiple choice exam does not suggest that he or she
> has reached the level of expertise in that subject to be awarded 24
> credits and if you think otherwise then I have to believe that you are
> not seeking an education, but only to accumulate credits and obtain a
> degree. The first time this wonder-boy gets into a real discussion with
> someone familiar with political science, I suspect he will come off
> looking rather poorly.
>
> Wes
>
And those (presumably mainly politics/government majors) who did
less well than our young friend in the GRE political science advanced
subject examination; how might they perform in the same "real
discussion"? The only empirical data we have suggest the kid may
well clean their clocks!
One note however, the young man took the *revised* political
science subject exam. The percentile rankings for this exam differ
markedly from the older test in terms of scaled score. A score
of 500 yields a percentile rank of 56 and not 70 as it would on
the old test and should properly yield 15 semester hour credits
from Regents of which 3 would be upper division. Since Regents
publishes scaled score requirements for credit on a yearly basis,
it may be that he will still be awarded 24 credits of which 12
will be upper division. Anyway, his was nevertheless a very
creditable performance. This puts him in the upper half of all
those who sat the exam.
The GRE advanced subject exams are normally taken by people
who have graduated or are about to graduate with a major in the
tested subject or closely allied discipline.
With all the advantages of a traditional education, all those papers
written, all that extensive reading, all those discussions with tutors
and peers of complex ideas within the subject area, how could the
kid beat possibly 'em, Wes? How could he, walking in off the
street, do better in the exam, regardless if it is multiple choice or
otherwise, than those who have studied that subject traditionally?
Is it possible there are other more efficient methods, in terms of
learning outcomes, of pursuing an education than chasing the
traditional route?
The boy must be fairly well read to have "passed" the exam. It
requires a solid grounding in American government, political
philosophy and history, international relations and international
law if you are to do at all well in this test. As far as debate and
discussion go, in Europe there are plenty of quality media
outlets, TV, radio, newspapers and periodicals; and how
difficult is it to spark a political debate at home, at
work, or even on a bus! In the US, well, we always have
CSPAN I and II, don't we :-)
Lawrie Miller (inveterate credit accumulator)
BS with concentration in Political Science USNY/Regents,
courtesy of CLEP, RCE, GRE and in particular, 30 credits
from the GRE PolSci subject exam :-)
Some1
Granting a person 24 units of credit for a satisfactory GRE score may or
may not be excessive.
But keep in mind that most universities offer their students the option
of credit by examination. This is not a practice restricted to distance
education. While it can be criticized, it is criticism that most schools
will be subject to.
How good an indicator of subject matter competence is the GRE? If it is
a poor indicator of what one has learned while an undergraduate, why do
so many graduate schools require it for admission? If it is a reasonably
good indicator, why not grant some amount of undergraduate credit for
doing well?
I think that the only real issue here is how much credit is appropriate.
Bill
Daniel R. Henderson
Ooops, I forgot, Desert Storm wasn't a 'real' war!
But seriously, I have the utmost respect for our Vietnam vets. For what you
and others did and went through during that time I can never match or repay.
Your opinion on distance learning is another matter altogether.
No saluting necessary, save it for the for officer's. I thought about what
I might say to you but there really is nothing to say. You seem to have your
mind made up.
As for debate, I take a small portfolio with me to every staff meeting. I
call it my "bag of tricks." I don't like to brag (that's a lie, I do) but
I've sent more than one snot-nosed lieutenant with their "superior"
education and knowledge packing. If I ever actually lose a debate or fail
to get my proposal accepted, I'll let you know and we can compare notes on
the experience. As of now, I have no experiences with which I can compare
with you.
D.R. Henderson
drhe...@bellsouth.net
Tom Burke
If I can add here, please:
The idea of taking classes from a traditional school to certify one's
competencies to understand a subject matter or to discuss a subject
matter is narrow thinking at best. It is not relevant that time tables
are met, papers are written, or time-in-chair is endured. There is
nothing inherently beneficial to the learning process which requires
time-in-chair. In fact, to those whose learning modalities are stifled
by the time-in-chair model, it may be counter productive. The benefit
of a degree is to evidence that one knows a particular body of
knowledge, at least at a particular level. For one to learn and
understand, does not require the professor's tutelage. The Prof. may be
beneficial, but that is not necessarily a requirement.
While in Viet Nam, as a Marine in I Corps, during the Tet Offensive, I
completed history courses via correspondence from the University of
Wisconsin. I did, in fact study by flashlight in foxholes.
Subsequently, I have taken on-line course work from Eastern Michigan
University. My Prof. was a Fulbright Scholar in London. My classmates
were officers of major corporations. I completed my JD at night
school. I completed my MBA at night, working full time, raising a
family, finding time to discuss and debate with some of our country's
best and brightest. I didn't need the Prof. to find my education or my
understanding. Much of it came through hard work, deadlines, strong
discipline, and a desire to know my world.
I don't brag about my degrees nor how I got them. Any truly educated
man/women is going to listen to the individual, not the degree they
proffer. I have met far too many Harvard/MIT/USC grads who couldn't
understand the relationship between leaving early enough from home to
arrive at work regularly and the normal distribution curve.
It's not in the resource that education and understanding lies. It's
not in the medium! Accreditation Associations in this country just
means of market barriers.
Enjoy,
BLang56
On Wed, May 27, 1998, Wes wrote, in relevant part:
> I am tired of
>listing to the whiners and complainers and those who don't want to do
>the work but want the credit.
Wes, you always have the option of NOT reading the newsgroup. If you choose to
read, why bitch about what is posted there?
Wes & Linda Grady
Best suggestion yet. This isn't about non-traditional education
programs, it is about finding ways to obtain degrees without working for
them. Sorry, I thought I would find more here. Go back to the debate
over which school is accredited by which non-recognized agency and how
many credits you can be awarded for being a waiter for a month.
Wes
Chip White
In article <356C94...@mailzone.com>,
Wes & Linda Grady <gr...@mailzone.com> wrote:
>Chip that is plain BS and you know it. Eight courses at any college or
>university will require the writing of papers, extensive reading and
>discussion of complex idea in the subject area.
And who is to say that someone who has read, discussed, had mentors,
traveled, and been around intelligent discourse during his or her life
hasn't had similar experience?
Because someone is able
>to pass a single multiple choice exam does not suggest that he or she
>has reached the level of expertise in that subject to be awarded 24
>credits and if you think otherwise then I have to believe that you are
>not seeking an education, but only to accumulate credits and obtain a
>degree. The first time this wonder-boy gets into a real discussion with
>someone familiar with political science, I suspect he will come off
>looking rather poorly.
>
As I said in my previous post, you've already made your position clear.
Education is not something solely limited to a classroom, or to a
traditional relationship between a teacher and a student where the
information flow is unidirectional. Many, many highly respected schools
offer nontraditional, semester-long experiential programs, including
semesters at sea, semesters in the remote tundra of Alaska, cooperative
work/internship programs, and many, many other ways of gaining knowledge and
experience for which up to thirty, and sometimes more, credits are granted.
The whole nature of distance learning is "going outside the box", not
restricting oneself to traditional learning paradigms. You seem utterly
unable to divorce yourself from the notion that the test equals the
learning. No, a 3 hour test certainly does not equal 24 credits of learning.
The LEARNING happens through life experience. the TEST (in whatever form)
serves only to proctor that the learning has occurred.
I really don't understand why closed-minded people even bother to contribute
to forums like this that exist to facilitate and encourage openmindedness,
non-traditional approaches, and ways of honoring and validating the learning
that people have gained through their own experience.
For many, the undergrad degree LEARNING has already been earned through life
and work experience. TESTING and PORTFOLIO serve as valuable, accepted, and
worthwhile ways of documenting the education that has already been received.
For many, the undergrad degree achievied through a combination of testing,
portfolio, and new coursework is a stepping stone to a higher degree
involving more conventional study, research, and learning.
It's all in the name of helping people to grow and improve themselves. But
since you have obviously already made up your mind that it's a crock, I
suppose that nothing else I or anyone else can say will serve any purpose.
It's too bad that you can't be flexible enough to consider that which you
apparently know little about.
Chip
(and most of the other folks here who have
Chip White
Ah!
The truth comes out!!
In article <356CA7...@mailzone.com>,
Wes & Linda Grady <gr...@mailzone.com> wrote:
>I started my college experience in 1969
>and didn't finish until 1979. I managed to support myself and my family
>while earning three degrees in the traditional manner
So what we have here is a case of sour grapes. Wes did his schooling the
hard way, and doesn't think that anyone else deserves to have it any easier
than he did.
That's the bottom line.
Chip White
In article <356CEB...@mailzone.com>,
Wes & Linda Grady <gr...@mailzone.com> wrote:
>BLang56 wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, May 27, 1998, Wes wrote, in relevant part:
>>
>> > I am tired of
>> >listing to the whiners and complainers and those who don't want to do
>> >the work but want the credit.
>>
>> Wes, you always have the option of NOT reading the newsgroup. If you
choose to
>> read, why bitch about what is posted there?
>
>
>Best suggestion yet.
So, is that a promise that you'll take the suggestion?
>This isn't about non-traditional education
>programs, it is about finding ways to obtain degrees without working for
>them.
No, it's about helping people earn their degree by applying knowledge
they already have along with new work, where necessary, and combining it all
into a legitimate, regionally accredited degree that will be recognized and
respected by everyone (except you).
>Go back to the debate
>over which school is accredited by which non-recognized agency
A clear illustration of your lack of understanding of much of the discussion
here. People on this NG discuss bogus accreditation agencies so that those
(such as yourself) who don't have the information can learn about them, so
they can steer clear of fraudulent schools with bogus accreditation.
>and how
>many credits you can be awarded for being a waiter for a month.
Actually, if a regionally accredited school offered a program in restaurant
management, and had a course on guest services and kitchen operations,
someone who had been a waiter or cook (albeit, it would require more than a
month's experience to gain all of the necessary knowledge) could probably
demonstrate command of the knowledge offered in such a course, and would
therefore be entitled to receive credit for it. For being a waiter alone, no
credit. But for demonstrating the knowledge equivalency to a course offered
by an accredited program, yes.
I hope you find better acceptance in whatever newsgroup is fortunate enough
to be the next beneficiary of your contributions, Wes.
pkon...@bellatlantic.net
In article <356CA7...@mailzone.com>,
gr...@mailzone.com wrote:
>
> I guess I should stand up and salute because you chose to enter the
> military rather than go to school or get a civilian job. Sorry, pal,
> been there and done that and it doesn't cut you any slack here. You
> want a BS degree then show me that you have done equivalent work as
> someone who spent four years in a traditional program, earning credits
> one course at a time, meeting deadline, writing papers and reading long
> assignments and, yes, taking tests. I stand by my original post, 24
> credits for passing a GRE is ludicrous and if that is the manner of
> distance education you are seeking then are shortchanging yourself as
> well as the program you seek. And the first time you get yourself into
> a discussion with someone who worked his way through a traditional
> program and took those 8 courses, you will wish the hell you had taken
> them as well.
>
> And, for your information I graduated from High School in 1963 and spent
> my time in funny little places like Vietnam and Thailand. Saudi Arabia
> and Kuwait my great aunt Matilda. Step up and get shot at by people who
> know what they are doing. I have 40 friends' names carved on a black
> wall in Washington and nearly ended up there myself, so if you are
> looking for credit for camping out in the desert for a few months, look
> and didn't finish until 1979. I managed to support myself and my family
> listing to the whiners and complainers and those who don't want to do
> fucking multiple choice exam and then have the nerve to start throwing
> insults at me? Grow up, pal.
>
> Wes
>
this newsgroup? Open your mind instead of your mouth and give credit to
people who have the intelligence to pursue other avenues to better themselves.
Paul K.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Charles van Duren
Wes & Linda Grady <gr...@mailzone.com> writes:
#I guess I should stand up and salute because you chose to enter the
#military rather than go to school or get a civilian job. Sorry, pal,
#been there and done that and it doesn't cut you any slack here. You
#want a BS degree then show me that you have done equivalent work as
#someone who spent four years in a traditional program, earning credits
#one course at a time, meeting deadline, writing papers and reading long
#assignments and, yes, taking tests.
Now there's a definition of education! Would you care to provide proof
that your way is the only way to learn?
I guess learning only happens in the traditional environment. Damn, I
guess I better let my students know that they're wasting their time!
CvD (Assistant Prof., Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca. U.)
SA
On Thu, 28 May 1998 05:36:15 GMT, Chip White <ch...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
>I really don't understand why closed-minded people even bother to contribute
>to forums like this that exist to facilitate and encourage openmindedness,
>non-traditional approaches, and ways of honoring and validating the learning
>that people have gained through their own experience.
>
Nowhere in the FAQ does it say you must <or must not> be in support of
distance education to post. Right or wrong he is entitled to his
opinion. Closed-minded people (in my opinion) are the ones who want
only their side of the argument presented. If you don't like what he
says...then debate...otherwise use a kill filter.
SA
SA
>
>
>
>One note however, the young man took the *revised* political
>science subject exam. The percentile rankings for this exam differ
>markedly from the older test in terms of scaled score. A score
>of 500 yields a percentile rank of 56 and not 70 as it would on
>the old test and should properly yield 15 semester hour credits
>from Regents of which 3 would be upper division. Since Regents
>publishes scaled score requirements for credit on a yearly basis,
>it may be that he will still be awarded 24 credits of which 12
>will be upper division. Anyway, his was nevertheless a very
>creditable performance. This puts him in the upper half of all
>those who sat the exam.
>
Wow, a percentile rank of 56...on a multiple-choice exam a monkey, in
all probability, will yield a percentile rank in the bottom 25. A
lucky person on a good day.....
Had the student challenged the individual exams I would have less
problem accepting the credits. The inherent problem here is that we
may be encouraging students to study to only pass exams...thereby
missing a complete and thorough education.
Flame on,
SA
Chip White
In article <356f7b51...@enews.newsguy.com>,
S...@SA.COM (SA) wrote:
>Nowhere in the FAQ does it say you must <or must not> be in support of
>distance education to post.
True, but it's fairly pointless to go into a group of people looking to help
one another and tell them that accepted means of earning credits or degrees
are full of shit, or that respected, regionally accredited programs are only
for people who "can't hack a real college program".
>Right or wrong he is entitled to his
>opinion. Closed-minded people (in my opinion) are the ones who want
>only their side of the argument presented.
I agree. THe problem is when people present an argument based not on facts,
but on their assumptions and ignorance. That doesn't further learning
(unless one wants to learn how ignorant some people can be...)
>If you don't like what he
>says...then debate...otherwise use a kill filter.
Don't forget that *he* is the one who said he was leaving... I just
encouraged him to do what he'd already expressed interest in doing.
Emir A. Mohammed
es & Linda Grady wrote:
> Chip that is plain BS and you know it. Eight courses at any college or
> university will require the writing of papers, extensive reading and
> discussion of complex idea in the subject area.
Just so I am not confused... we were talking about "24 credits" right?... is that
not equivalent to 8 HALF-courses?... please do not equivocate...
Laters,
Emir...
Lawrie Miller
SA wrote:
>
>
> Wow, a percentile rank of 56...on a multiple-choice exam a monkey, in
> all probability, will yield a percentile rank in the bottom 25. A
> lucky person on a good day.....
What evidence can you present that will substantiate this? At the twoGRE
subject exam administrations I was involved in, I saw no monkeys,
only young men and women doing there best to achieve the score
necessary for entry into grad school. Most appeared to be in their
early twenties and none were excessively hairy.
And our young friend was a "lucky person on a good day"? That is a
ludicrous assertion.
>
>
> Had the student challenged the individual exams I would have less
> problem accepting the credits.
I have taken the GRE psychology subject exam and additionallyseveral
3-credit psychology challenge exams and can compare
the two approaches. Accumulating the credits in 3 semester hour
bites is *much* the easier path. I felt very confident going into
and coming out of each 3-credit challenge exam. The same could
not said be upon exiting either the GRE psychology exam or, for
that matter, the GRE political science exam.
> The inherent problem here is that we
> may be encouraging students to study to only pass
> exams...thereby
> missing a complete and thorough education.
Well, excuse me, but your doing it again. This is bunk.
How do we assess their knowledge of a subject other
than by some sort of examination? How, other than
by testing, will you know whether or not they
have had "a complete and thorough education"?
If an exam is rigorous enough and comprehensive
it *will* reveal that (within subject). By passing the
exam, the student demonstrates proficiency. All the
talk of "a complete and thorough education" that
is not open to testing in the real world is meaningless
drivel.
c...@aol.com
I agree, sounds like Wes is a narrow-minded, shell-shocked, braggart.
cryaah
Wes & Linda Grady wrote:
>
> credits for passing a GRE is ludicrous and if that is the manner of
> distance education you are seeking then are shortchanging yourself as
> well as the program you seek. And the first time you get yourself into
> a discussion with someone who worked his way through a traditional
> program and took those 8 courses, you will wish the hell you had taken
> them as well.
>
compared to my fellow classmates who got there degrees through
correspondance coures( not distance learning...Correspondance Courses!),
I busted my but on campus...working 2 jobs to come out with a B -
average, my classmates turned in course work at their convenience. Not
one served during "wartime" and I with a mere B- average was treated
like a second rate citizen compared to my peers with solid A's from
correspondance school.
Lawrie Miller
>
>
> Because on a multiple-choice exam you generally have a one-in-four
> chance of being correct. By random choice a monkey could very easily
> score 25% or better without ever knowing anything about the subject
> being tested.
Well, the devil is in the detail and it is important that you do yourhomework
before equating anyone's performance with that of a
lower primate.
The GRE subject tests offer five alternative answers to each question.
For each question answered incorrectly one quarter point is deducted.
Therefore, random guessing would likely produce an overall raw score
of zero. A raw score of 0 to 6 on the political science GRE exam
would yield a scaled score of 260 to 270, which would is in the
0 (zero) percentile range. Our monkey would require a raw score of
47-50 for a scaled score of 400 and consequent percentile score of
25. These data relate to the GRE advance subject exam in political
science only.
> This is why graduate schools only consider the GRE in addition to good
> grades and academic background. The GRE is but one indicator of a
> students ability to do well in a graduate program. A poor GRE score
> does not necessarily indicate a lack of knowledge in a subject
> area...either.
But the point is that this is a GRE subject exams and your scoredoes say
something about your knowledge of the subject. I found
that performance in the in the GRE subject exam in psychology
did indeed parallel scores in other 3 credit psychology exams. It
was just a lot tougher to cover that amount of ground in one
exam. And again, our young friend did better than over half of
those who sat the GRE political science exam. You wrote that
he did no better than a monkey would do, and/or that he just
got lucky. One more time, what evidence can you present that
to support such idiotic assertions?
> I am NOT saying don't test. What I am saying is knowledge must be
> tested through essays, presentations, and written exams. Not only
> multiple-choice exams...which are suspect due to the high degree of
> random guessing that can be involved.
>
But that is not what you said. You said that encouraging studentsonly to pass
exams may result in them missing a complete and
thorough education.
You have now changed tack and argue that your beef is with the
use of multiple choice examinations. Well, this is certainly a more
reasonable position. However, as detailed earlier in this note,
in the case of the GRE advanced subject examinations, random
guessing will result in a raw score of zero on average and will
ALMOST WITH COMPLETE CERTAINTY result in a
percentile ranking of zero. In any case, even in exams
where there is no guessing penalty, the use of standard
scores and percentile ranking to set a passing mark should
eliminate the problem. Every challenge/proficiency exam I've
taken uses these methods to set the passing score.
> An education must be more than the sum of all its parts !
Eh, right. Now explain what exactly you mean by that.
>
>
> >If an exam is rigorous enough and comprehensive
> >it *will* reveal that (within subject). By passing the
> >exam, the student demonstrates proficiency. All the
> >talk of "a complete and thorough education" that
> >is not open to testing in the real world is meaningless
> >drivel.
>
> So you are telling me the only fair assessment of a student's ability
> is a multiple choice exam. God...I hope our teachers and doctors never
> fall for this rhetoric.
Nope. Never mentioned multiple choice anywhere in thethe paragraph and I
thought it's meaning was pretty clear.
kg...@my-dejanews.com
In article <356d76d1...@enews.newsguy.com>,
S...@SA.COM (SA) wrote:
>
> On Wed, 27 May 1998 19:26:47 -0700, Lawrie Miller
> <LA...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
>
> >
> >One note however, the young man took the *revised* political
> >science subject exam. The percentile rankings for this exam differ
> >markedly from the older test in terms of scaled score. A score
> >of 500 yields a percentile rank of 56 and not 70 as it would on
> >the old test and should properly yield 15 semester hour credits
> >from Regents of which 3 would be upper division. Since Regents
> >publishes scaled score requirements for credit on a yearly basis,
> >it may be that he will still be awarded 24 credits of which 12
> >will be upper division. Anyway, his was nevertheless a very
> >creditable performance. This puts him in the upper half of all
> >those who sat the exam.
> >
>
> all probability, will yield a percentile rank in the bottom 25. A
> lucky person on a good day.....
>
> may be encouraging students to study to only pass exams...thereby
>
>
> SA
>
Since the population who typically sits for a GRE subject exam is composed of
college juniors and seniors who major in the subject area and are considering
graduate study in it, I'd say a 56th percentile ranking is pretty good.
I'm not sure how most monkeys would do on the poli sci exam. The only one
I've ever taken was psychology and I know my percentile ranking was higher
than theirs.
Tommy
SA
On Thu, 28 May 1998 13:51:24 -0700, Lawrie Miller
<LA...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>
>SA wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Wow, a percentile rank of 56...on a multiple-choice exam a monkey, in
>> all probability, will yield a percentile rank in the bottom 25. A
>> lucky person on a good day.....
>
>What evidence can you present that will substantiate this? At the twoGRE
>subject exam administrations I was involved in, I saw no monkeys,
>only young men and women doing there best to achieve the score
>necessary for entry into grad school. Most appeared to be in their
>early twenties and none were excessively hairy.
>
Because on a multiple-choice exam you generally have a one-in-four
chance of being correct. By random choice a monkey could very easily
score 25% or better without ever knowing anything about the subject
being tested.
>And our young friend was a "lucky person on a good day"? That is a
>ludicrous assertion.
>
>
>>
>> Had the student challenged the individual exams I would have less
>> problem accepting the credits.
>
>I have taken the GRE psychology subject exam and additionallyseveral
>3-credit psychology challenge exams and can compare
>the two approaches. Accumulating the credits in 3 semester hour
>bites is *much* the easier path. I felt very confident going into
>and coming out of each 3-credit challenge exam. The same could
>not said be upon exiting either the GRE psychology exam or, for
>that matter, the GRE political science exam.
>
This is why graduate schools only consider the GRE in addition to good
grades and academic background. The GRE is but one indicator of a
students ability to do well in a graduate program. A poor GRE score
does not necessarily indicate a lack of knowledge in a subject
area...either.
>> The inherent problem here is that we
>> may be encouraging students to study to only pass
>
>> exams...thereby
>> missing a complete and thorough education.
>
> Well, excuse me, but your doing it again. This is bunk.
>How do we assess their knowledge of a subject other
>than by some sort of examination? How, other than
>by testing, will you know whether or not they
>have had "a complete and thorough education"?
I am NOT saying don't test. What I am saying is knowledge must be
tested through essays, presentations, and written exams. Not only
multiple-choice exams...which are suspect due to the high degree of
random guessing that can be involved.
An education must be more than the sum of all its parts !
>If an exam is rigorous enough and comprehensive
>it *will* reveal that (within subject). By passing the
>exam, the student demonstrates proficiency. All the
>talk of "a complete and thorough education" that
>is not open to testing in the real world is meaningless
>drivel.
So you are telling me the only fair assessment of a student's ability
is a multiple choice exam. God...I hope our teachers and doctors never
fall for this rhetoric.
>
>
SA
Ron Isaacs
On Wed, 27 May 1998 16:49:31 -0400, Wes & Linda Grady
<gr...@mailzone.com> wrote:
>I am totally amazed. A 20 year old individual, without any prior course
>work scores a 500 on the Graduate Record Exam, multiple choice exam, and
>the Regents College is prepared to give him 24 credits for it. That is
>the equivalent of 8 courses in the subject area and in most schools,
>equal to the number of courses that are required to complete a major.
>
>In my opinion, that not only seems excessive, it reflects poorly upon
>the degree that might be awarded. One multiple choice exam, with no
>prior course work and no preparation is not worth 24 credits in any
>program.
>
>Wes
_____________________________________________________________
Hi Wes,
One debate, taking place in the UK, is whether modular degree
programs, similar in construction to US programs, encourage lower
standards.
The assumption is that modules/short courses are assessed as each is
completed. The student, therefore, is frequently only required to
remember course material for a short period.
By contrast, in programs that are assessed at the end of each year
and, again, at the end of a 3 or 4-year period, students are required
to constantly revise the material they have learned, else they will
forget it.
Your argument would appear to be whether a single exam that assesses
knowledge of the equivalent of a whole year's work is a comparable
test to ten exams that test the same overall knowledge. For the
reasons I have outlined above, it may well be.
Over the years, I have taken a variety of long and short courses, and
a number of proficiency exams. The courses required much more effort
than any of the proficiency exams. However, I took the proficiency
exams in subjects that I had mastered informally over many years.
This informal study totaled thousands of hours. Was the credit I
gained from those proficiency exams any less valid than that I gained
from formal courses. I don't think so.
Best wishes,
Ron Isaacs <r...@educ.u-net.com>
SA
On Thu, 28 May 1998 23:18:51 GMT, pkon...@bellatlantic.net wrote:
>If you are so against non-traditional education what purpose do you serve on
>this newsgroup? Open your mind instead of your mouth and give credit to
>people who have the intelligence to pursue other avenues to better themselves.
>
>Paul K.
>
To provide balance. Nowhere in the FAQ does it state that you must be
for or against non-traditional education to serve a purpose in this
"open" forum.
Let those who are requesting information make up their own minds based
on a diversity of opinions.
SA
DR_WETSCH
The general point on the acceptance of distance learning should be moot.
Observe the colleges and universities that accept DL credits from
regionally accredited institutions as well as award their own credits
and degrees based on DL study. In the SACS accreditation site I
mentioned in another thread you can find a good statement on the
acceptance of DL study. Studies in DL generally show that DL
students perform at or above the same level as traditional students.
Readers may want to research the ERIC database to find some of their
own references on this subject.
The question that I understand that was posed was the acceptance of the
GRE for credit by Regents. It should be pointed out that the credit
awarded is for the GRE Subject exams. These exams are focused in on a
specific area of study, such as physics, social sciences, etc., to
assess the learning that a graduate with a bachelors degree in the
subject area has attained. Consequenlty, Regents awards credit towards
the exam on a sliding scale. A minimal acceptable score will garner
the test taker 3 sem. hrs. of lower level credit. A high pass which
would show a mastery of the material at the same level as a graduate of
the field can earn the test taker no more than 30 sem. hrs. Overall,
testing for credit has been around for a long time -- CLEP, ACP PEP,
AP are other standardized tests. Also, schools that let students
take Challenge Exams basically provide the same service on a per course
basis.
Regents College as an assessment institution has a simple philosophy
in its approach towards education. It is not where or how you gained
your knowledge the important point is that the knowledge has been gained.
Through the various assessment tools available a student must
demonstrate that they know the material in order to earn the
credit they need to earn a degree.
John R. Wetsch, Ph.D.
BS '84 Regents College
jcra...@cloud9.net
In article <356f0d05...@enews.newsguy.com>,
S...@SA.COM (SA) wrote:
>
> On Thu, 28 May 1998 13:51:24 -0700, Lawrie Miller
> <LA...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >SA wrote:
> >
>
> Because on a multiple-choice exam you generally have a one-in-four
> chance of being correct. By random choice a monkey could very easily
> score 25% or better without ever knowing anything about the subject
> being tested.
>
This is not correct. A person who guesses will have a 25% chance of guessing
correctly on a single question. The probability of guessing the correct
answer on multiple questions becomes very small. For example, an exam with
100 multiple choice questions (assuming each question has four possible
answers) would yield a probability of (.25)^100 or 6.22x10^-61 that an
individual could guess every question correctly. A slim chance...
Keep in mind that some HW exams require both multiple choice and essay
answers. Also keep in mind that every MBA program varies in the quality of
courses, professors, breadth, etc. The proof is in the management potential
such a course instills. HW is very well respected world-wide. I have met HW
grads on every continent and have worked with some in very large Financial
Service companies... I have yet to be dissapointed.
John Craparo
SA
>Well, the devil is in the detail and it is important that you do yourhomework
>before equating anyone's performance with that of a
>lower primate.
>
You're absolutely correct. I was way out of line with the cracks about
the monkey. I apologize. However, I do believe the basic premise of my
argument to be true. Read on !
>But the point is that this is a GRE subject exams and your scoredoes say
>something about your knowledge of the subject. I found
>that performance in the in the GRE subject exam in psychology
>did indeed parallel scores in other 3 credit psychology exams. It
>was just a lot tougher to cover that amount of ground in one
>exam. And again, our young friend did better than over half of
>those who sat the GRE political science exam. You wrote that
>he did no better than a monkey would do, and/or that he just
>got lucky. One more time, what evidence can you present that
>to support such idiotic assertions?
I am not convinced. Why ?...because I live in Seoul, South Korea. A
country where students study the GRE as an occupation. Korean students
do exceptionally well on the GRE subject exams, and not because they
necessarily know the material, but because they have an incredible
ability to memorize facts. The GRE can be clearly studied ! The GRE
books available today are so identical to the exams that Korean
students just have memorize the answers and regurgitate them back up.
And please don't try to tell me that the curriculum at a US university
is the same at a Korean university or that the GRE is not biased in
favor of western culture and history.
Moreover, Korean students also do extremely well on the quantitative
parts of the general GRE exam (better on average than American
students). Why ?...because rote memorization allows them to excel in
mathematics and sciences. However, they do very poor in the verbal and
analytical sections for the same reasons. It is not uncommon for
Korean students to buy several GRE vocabulary texts, memorize them,
and increase their verbal scores by 250 points...all this without ever
speaking a lick of English.
Why do they do so poorly in the analytical components ? Simple...they
are not required to use any imagination or creativity in completion of
their university course work.
Most Korean students will agree with my assessment and as a result you
will frequently see students demonstrating on campus. A student can go
through a four year degree without ever having to ask a question or
speak to another student. He/she must only pass the standardized
exams ! It is a system that also encourages an excessive amount of
cheating.
>But that is not what you said. You said that encouraging studentsonly to pass
>exams may result in them missing a complete and
>thorough education.
Take a look again at what I said: [sic] " The inherent problem here is
that we may be encouraging students " to study" to only pass
exams...thereby missing a complete and thorough education. "
Learning only the material required to pass the exams...nothing
more...nothing less.
>
>You have now changed tack and argue that your beef is with the
>use of multiple choice examinations. Well, this is certainly a more
>reasonable position. However, as detailed earlier in this note,
>in the case of the GRE advanced subject examinations, random
>guessing will result in a raw score of zero on average and will
>ALMOST WITH COMPLETE CERTAINTY result in a
>percentile ranking of zero.
I have never heard of any student with a score less than 200 points.
This is the bare minimum given on any exam !
> In any case, even in exams where there is no guessing penalty,
> the use of standard
>scores and percentile ranking to set a passing mark should
>eliminate the problem. Every challenge/proficiency exam I've
>taken uses these methods to set the passing score.
>
>> An education must be more than the sum of all its parts !
>
>Eh, right. Now explain what exactly you mean by that.
>
An education is more than just good grades and passing exams. What
you are advancing is an academic system based purely on passing
standardized exams. Your method does nothing to encourage imagination
or creativity. And what evidence do I have ? How many Nobel laureates,
original inventions, or advances in science/medicine has Korea
produced in this century? I've seen your concept of education in
action and frankly it stinks. With Asians fighting desperately to get
away from this style of education, then why in the world would you
want to push us in that direction ?
>>
>>
>> >If an exam is rigorous enough and comprehensive
>> >it *will* reveal that (within subject). By passing the
>> >exam, the student demonstrates proficiency. All the
>> >talk of "a complete and thorough education" that
>> >is not open to testing in the real world is meaningless
>> >drivel.
>>
No...it may only indicate that you've memorized a few text books.
>
>Nope. Never mentioned multiple choice anywhere in thethe paragraph and I
>thought it's meaning was pretty clear.
>
>
If I've misunderstood what you said, then I again apologize. But I was
under the impression that you somehow believe that passing one (1)
single standardized GRE subject test was equivalent to 15 credit hours
of study at a university. If you believe this to be true, than you're
suffering from severe delusion.
I hope that the way we evaluate our doctors and teachers is not based
on only passing exams such as the GRE. What we are missing here is
the soft skills required to perform a craft. For example, a surgeon
must also be a skilled artisan and a teacher an excellent orator...
Required skills that are impossible to measure on a standardized test
such as the GRE.
SA
Franklin Hanson
Obtaining a credit for life experiences to reduce credit requirements
for a degree has its merits!
SA
Chip White
I think that SA has brought out a really good, important point... which can
be applied not only to the GRE, but to *any* test where previous tests or
test questions are accessible.
At the small liberal arts college I attended, a number of professors
included in their interpretation of the honor code a prohibition on studying
exams given in previous semesters for that very reason. In addition to the
recycling of some questions in future exams, it encourages people to study
to pass the test, rather than studying to learn the material. And, as SA has
described, the situation in Korea is exactly that.
With that said, the problem really becomes how one develops a system to
award credit to those who legitimately have studied and learned something
(maybe, for example, by doing good, meaningful coursework at a legitimate
but unaccredited college) and try to prevent people from just passing the
test by studying for it.
I think it boils down to one's personal ethics. In the same way that some
folks go for an unaccredited degree from a bogus school that is clearly a
diploma mill just so they can use it to further their career, some people
also will do the absolute minimum to get a legitimate degree -- and this is
as true at the selective liberal arts college I attended as at Regents or
TESC.
*Any* degree, even a Harvard one, can represent either a huge commitment to
learning everything that can be learned or a relatively minimal effort --
and, of course, a minimal effort at Harvard is completely different from a
minimal effort at a regionally accredited Lazy Student University.
I think that the GRE, DANTES, and CLEP exams are honest attempts to help
people who have legitimately learned college-level material to document
their learning. And until someone can find a uniform and relatively high
volume way of evaluating the true learning, it's the best we have -- and,
unfortunately, has a lot of holes through which people seeking to "beat the
system" can climb through.
Lawrie Miller
jcra...@cloud9.net wrote:
> > >SA wrote:
> > Because on a multiple-choice exam you generally have a one-in-four
> > chance of being correct. By random choice a monkey could very easily
> > score 25% or better without ever knowing anything about the subject
> > being tested.
> >
> This is not correct. A person who guesses will have a 25% chance of guessing
> correctly on a single question. The probability of guessing the correct
> answer on multiple questions becomes very small. For example, an exam with
> 100 multiple choice questions (assuming each question has four possible
> answers) would yield a probability of (.25)^100 or 6.22x10^-61 that an
> individual could guess every question correctly. A slim chance...
>
> John Craparo
Well actually, on this point SA is correct. The probability of a correct
answer being randomly selected remains 0.25 or 25% where there
are four choices. Think of a coin toss, the probability of landing heads
up remains a half for each individual toss of a fair coin, regardless of
the number of trials. Self evidently, as the number of trials increases
the ratio of heads to tails will tend towards 1/2. Now make it a
multiple choice test with two choices per question marked 1, 2 rather
than a coin. Randomly select the answers. The probability of a
correct answer for any number of trials remains 1/2. Increase the
number of choices per question from two to four and it is 1/4.
What I think you have calculated is the probability of consecutive
correct answers being randomly selected, which indeed would be
1/4x1/4x1/4......... etc.
Where SA *is* in error is in equating the number of correct
answers (25%) with a scaled score above the 25th percentile
in a standardized test; not remotely the same thing.
Lawrie Miller
Lawrie Miller wrote:
> Self evidently, as the number of trials increases
> the ratio of heads to tails will tend towards 1/2.
Oops, make that 1/1..... sorry.
Lawrie Miller
SA wrote:
>
>
> You're absolutely correct. I was way out of line with the cracks about
> the monkey. I apologize. However, I do believe the basic premise of my
> argument to be true. Read on !
>
> Korean students
> do exceptionally well on the GRE subject exams, and not because they
> necessarily know the material, but because they have an incredible
> ability to memorize facts.
So, the exams you have passed in the course of your studies reflectedyour
knowledge of the subject matter and Koreans pass the GRE
subject exams with no real understanding of the subject matter but
because of some sort of (presumably genetic?) parrot memory.
> The GRE can be clearly studied ! The GRE
> books available today are so identical to the exams that Korean
> students just have memorize the answers and regurgitate them back up.
Not the case. Few study guides are anywhere near analogous to thetype of questions
found in the GRE subject exams proper. The
exceptions are the ETS "Practicing to take" series and the Princeton
Review "Cracking the GRE" series. You can find a thread on this very
subject in DejaNews if you care to research it. It may be that there are
specifically Korean publications of which I am unaware, however.
>
>
>
> Moreover, Korean students also do extremely well on the quantitative
> parts of the general GRE exam (better on average than American
> students). Why ?...because rote memorization allows them to excel in
> mathematics and sciences.
Again, they have no understanding of the material I suppose, just thatol' parrot
memory again.
> However, they do very poor in the verbal and
> analytical sections for the same reasons.
OK,
> It is not uncommon for
> Korean students to buy several GRE vocabulary texts, memorize them,
> and increase their verbal scores by 250 points...all this without ever
> speaking a lick of English.
>
but you have just said they do very poorly in the verbal section dueto lack of
ability, now you say many increase their verbal score by
250 points. Which is it? And if as a result of this memorization, they
have added "omnipotent", "omnipresent" and "omniscient" to their
vocabulary and understand the definitions of each, isn't that learning
valid?
> Why do they do so poorly in the analytical components ? Simple...they
> are not required to use any imagination or creativity in completion of
> their university course work.
These are your opinions. You have produced no data whatsoever tocorroborate your
prejudices.
>
>
> Most Korean students will agree with my assessment and as a result you
> will frequently see students demonstrating on campus. A student can go
> through a four year degree without ever having to ask a question or
> speak to another student. He/she must only pass the standardized
> exams ! It is a system that also encourages an excessive amount of
> cheating.
>
> >But that is not what you said. You said that encouraging studentsonly to pass
> >exams may result in them missing a complete and
> >thorough education.
>
> Take a look again at what I said: [sic] " The inherent problem here is
> that we may be encouraging students " to study" to only pass
> exams...thereby missing a complete and thorough education. "
>
> Learning only the material required to pass the exams...nothing
> more...nothing less.
> >
> >You have now changed tack and argue that your beef is with the
> >use of multiple choice examinations. Well, this is certainly a more
> >reasonable position. However, as detailed earlier in this note,
> >in the case of the GRE advanced subject examinations, random
> >guessing will result in a raw score of zero on average and will
> >ALMOST WITH COMPLETE CERTAINTY result in a
> >percentile ranking of zero.
>
> I have never heard of any student with a score less than 200 points.
> This is the bare minimum given on any exam !
Yes, correct. And a scaled score of 200 can only be gotten byscoring no points at
all (raw score) in the exam. This will result
in a 0%ile ranking. Please re-read the paragraph.
> you are advancing is an academic system based purely on passing
> standardized exams.
No, at no time did I say or in any way imply that.
> Your method does nothing to encourage imagination
> or creativity. And what evidence do I have ? How many Nobel laureates,
> original inventions, or advances in science/medicine has Korea
> produced in this century?
I will let that remark stand on its own merits :-)
>
>
> >>
> >>
> >> >If an exam is rigorous enough and comprehensive
> >> >it *will* reveal that (within subject). By passing the
> >> >exam, the student demonstrates proficiency. All the
> >> >talk of "a complete and thorough education" that
> >> >is not open to testing in the real world is meaningless
> >> >drivel.
> >>
>
> No...it may only indicate that you've memorized a few text books.
>
>
>
> If I've misunderstood what you said, then I again apologize. But I was
> under the impression that you somehow believe that passing one (1)
> single standardized GRE subject test was equivalent to 15 credit hours
> of study at a university. If you believe this to be true, than you're
> suffering from severe delusion.
> SA
Yes, I do believe that passing one single standardized GRE subject
test can demonstrate proficiency in the relevant subject equivalent to
15 semester hours of study at a university.
Napoleon
Peter Glaeser wrote:
> Hey folks,
>
> I've been watching this huge discussion about Heriot-Watt University
> and I
> don't think it'll come to an end any time soon. I am considering
> buying my
> first course some time soon after the summer. To my mind, their MBA
> degree
> is definitely worth the time, effort and money.
>
> True, they don't require a Bachelor's or work experience or anything
> like
> that. I am a 1st-semester law student from Germany (20 years young,
> just got
> out of the military, we still have the draft). I took the GRE Revised
> Political Science subject test in April and scored a 500 (on a 200-900
>
> scale). Regents College (SUNY) would give me up to 24 semester credits
> for
> that. I have neither taken Political Science courses before nor
> studied for
> the test. I just have gained enough experience. See, the point is that
> it
> doesn't matter how you learn it. Important is that you know it. That's
> the
> concept of getting degrees nontraditionally, for example by distance
> learning.
>
> True, it's not a U.S. school so the question of accreditation is a
> little
> harder to answer. But see, the private Heriot-Watt University was
> founded in
> the 19th century. Many people know Edinburgh School of Business. This
> is not
> a phony degree mill or anything. You have to work hard, pass hard
> tests, and
> if you fail any of the compulsory courses twice you're out.
>
> I encourage everybody who wants to get an MBA by distance learning to
> think
> about Heriot-Watt. It's one of the most inexpensive programs (except
> for the
> phony ones), it requires hard work (which means you actually learn a
> lot)
> and you have to pass hard tests (which means you have to present your
> abilities).
>
> I really don't know what's wrong with HW. So please, anyone who is not
> as
> excited about their program as me, please reply to this message and
> show me
> all the evil sides of Heriot-Watt.
>
> Peter
As I am a Heriot Watt MBA student in Hong Kong, I do not possess any
qualification such as a degree. I examine the Accounting and Marketing
at first. I passed. If you work hard, I ensure that you can success.
Heriot-Watt MBA give some person a hope to complete a MBA degree without
BBA or first degree.
Roland E. Pittman
cryaah wrote:
> <snip>
> Here Here!!!!! I was in the Air Force OTS and really resented being
> compared to my fellow classmates who got there [sic] degrees through
> correspondance [sic] coures [sic] ( not distance learning
> [sic]...Correspondance [sic] Courses!), I busted my but [sic] on
> campus...working 2 jobs to come out with a B -
> average, my classmates turned in course work at their convenience. Not
> one served during "wartime" and I with a mere B- average was treated
> like a second rate citizen compared to my peers with solid A's from
> correspondance [sic] school.
Hem..........pardon me. I thought a correspondence course was distance
learning. Furthermore, it would appear that A's are superior achievement to
B-'s. What is your argument? Are you saying that your work was more
rigorous (i.e. harder)? If so, why not say it. However, it may be somewhat
presumptive since you may not have had the opportunity to do a comprehensive
comparison of both methods. Remember that grass is always greener on the
other side of the fence. Judge Learned Hand, a wise Sioux judge, once said,
"Don't judge another man until you have walked a day in his shoes." If you
were doing those correspondence courses, you may have found them harder than
you thought. I wonder if those correspondence schools taught correct
mechanics, proper grammar, and spelling.