StarWars Novel
Bernie Reger
the StarWars novels out there (most by Bantam Books), the story makes
mention of a time when the Emperor came back as a clone of himself.
During this time, Luke turned over to the dark side if only for a brief
time.
Does any one know the name of this story? So many books make reference
to these events, and I'd like to read of them first hand.
Thanks.
-Bernie Reger
Darth Ewok
--
Darth Ewok, Sith Lord
There is no weakness; there is power.
There is no mercy; there is strength.
There is no compassion; there is ruthlessness.
There is no hope; there is the Dark Side.
Bernie Reger wrote in message <37FE17EA...@nwu.edu>...
Mal Brigand
--
Mal Brigand. "Sorry about the mess" ICQ#32607177
AFS Millennium Falcon. http://www.millenniumfalcon.f9.co.uk
Darth Ewok <Peter...@tesco.net> wrote in message
news:7tl7a8$i6k$1...@epos.tesco.net...
policrat'
Bernie Reger <bre...@nwu.edu> wrote in message
news:37FE17EA...@nwu.edu...
> I wonder if anyone can help me with a small problem. In reading many of
> the StarWars novels out there (most by Bantam Books), the story makes
> mention of a time when the Emperor came back as a clone of himself.
> During this time, Luke turned over to the dark side if only for a brief
> time.
>
> Does any one know the name of this story? So many books make reference
> to these events, and I'd like to read of them first hand.
It wasn't in a novel: it was the 'Dark Empire' comic series, scripted by Tom
Veitch with art by Cam Kennedy, still available as a trade paperback. This
started off very promisingly - majestic, brooding art, intelligent,
well-thought-out script - but as it progressed, it went downhill. After the
success of the original six-issue 'Dark Empire' series, the one-shot
'Lightsider' was produced and an arc of three more six-comic series was
envisaged (IIRC). Someone at LucasFilm didn't like 'Lightsider', however, so
it's never been published. Then deadlines got in the way and the rest of the
arc, starting awkwardly where 'Lightsider' finishes, all ended up being
compressed into the 6-issue 'Dark Empire II' (DE2) and the two-issue
Empire's End (EE), and the rush shows in the increasingly dubious plotting
and sketchy art.
DE, DE2 and EE are shown in SW timelines, etc. as being set between 'The
Last Command" and "Jedi Search", but it has to be pointed out that they sits
somewhat awkwardly in the continuity. The first six pages (probably the best
bit of the whole series) date back to the mid-1980s, and the story was
originally supposed to be set only weeks or months after RotJ. This
time-frame was maintained in the original DE comic series, which got the
go-ahead about the same time as Zahn's trilogy, and thus conflicted
hideously with the continuity which had just been established. Although this
has been superficially corrected in the trade paperback with a new opening
crawl and some dialogue re-writing, the comics still basically comes in off
left field.
Of all Kevin J. Anderson's crimes, perhaps the worst was his decision to
incorporate DE and 'Lightsider' (which has *still* not seen the light of
day) into the continuity of the novels. This not only threw over the traces
on the promising setup for future novels left by Zahn, but also severely
constrained the room for plotline in DE2 and EE. Since then, various
attempts, most notably by Michael Stackpole and by the 'Crimson Empire'
team, not to mention the heroic fan-fiction efforts of Brendon Wahlberg,
have been made to knit the continuity together, but although DE is there to
stay, no-one's yet produced a convincing explanation of how everything gets
from the way it is at the end of TLC to the way it is at the start of DE.
On top of all this, some fans have never forgiven the comics for what they
did (the Emperor's return an inexplicable six years after his death, his
subesquent death, return, death, return, and death for hopefully the last
time; the vast variety of increasingly daft Imperial superweapons; the
mounting silliness) and Dark Empire should probably have been left out of
the continuity like Splinter of the Mind's Eye and Peter David's kids'
novels. In spite of *everything*, though, the original 6-comic DE series
itself is actually quite good. Most of the problems are because it doesn't
work at all as a sequel to Zahn.
Hope this helps,
Policraticus McEwok,
Unofficial RASSM Scotsman (Retd.)
Talya Noire
Mal Brigand wrote:
> And they SUCK BIG TIME!!
>
> --
>
> Mal Brigand. "Sorry about the mess" ICQ#32607177
> AFS Millennium Falcon. http://www.millenniumfalcon.f9.co.uk
>
> Darth Ewok <Peter...@tesco.net> wrote in message
> news:7tl7a8$i6k$1...@epos.tesco.net...
> > Its in the Dark Empire comics series.
> >
> > --
> >
> > Darth Ewok, Sith Lord
> >
> > There is no weakness; there is power.
> > There is no mercy; there is strength.
> > There is no compassion; there is ruthlessness.
> > There is no hope; there is the Dark Side.
> >
> > Bernie Reger wrote in message <37FE17EA...@nwu.edu>...
> > >I wonder if anyone can help me with a small problem. In reading many of
> > >the StarWars novels out there (most by Bantam Books), the story makes
> > >mention of a time when the Emperor came back as a clone of himself.
> > >During this time, Luke turned over to the dark side if only for a brief
> > >time.
> > >
> > >Does any one know the name of this story? So many books make reference
> > >to these events, and I'd like to read of them first hand.
> > >
> > >Thanks.
> > >
> > > -Bernie Reger
> >
> >
Gee that was helpful, Mal!
Im sorry, Bernie...if I knew, Id tell you....
--
Talya, High Priestess of the Sith ICQ # 26250056
"The answer is out there, it's looking for you...
Ant it will find you..... if you want it to"
Galactic Empire TIE Fleet
http://www.kurikatafleet.pyar.com/
Rich Handley
Please read the FAQ. Thanks.
Bernie Reger <bre...@nwu.edu> wrote:
>I wonder if anyone can help me with a small problem. In reading many of
>the StarWars novels out there (most by Bantam Books), the story makes
>mention of a time when the Emperor came back as a clone of himself.
>During this time, Luke turned over to the dark side if only for a brief
>time.
>Does any one know the name of this story? So many books make reference
>to these events, and I'd like to read of them first hand.
>Thanks.
> -Bernie Reger
Sincerely,
Rich Handley (Card...@NO-SPAMunix.asb.com)
Rich Handley
>It wasn't in a novel: it was the 'Dark Empire' comic series, scripted by Tom
>Veitch with art by Cam Kennedy, still available as a trade paperback. This
>started off very promisingly - majestic, brooding art, intelligent,
>well-thought-out script - but as it progressed, it went downhill. After the
>success of the original six-issue 'Dark Empire' series, the one-shot
>'Lightsider' was produced and an arc of three more six-comic series was
>envisaged (IIRC). Someone at LucasFilm didn't like 'Lightsider', however, so
>it's never been published.
Actually, it had nothing to with someone at LFL not liking it. There
were contractural problems that got in the way of its publication.
LFL liked it -- and having read it, I can tell you that it's the best
of the Dark Empire stories. However, things didn't quite go as
planned and so it never came out.
>Of all Kevin J. Anderson's crimes, perhaps the worst was his decision to
>incorporate DE and 'Lightsider' (which has *still* not seen the light of
>day) into the continuity of the novels.
I wouldn't really consider that a crime -- LFL considers the novels
and comics the same continuity, which is why Exar Kun has been in the
books and several of the novel characters have appeared in the X-wing
comics. I think the problem wasn't Kevin's -- in fact, I applaud him
for being one of the only authors to bother trying to work this piece
of continuity in -- it was that Dark Empire has never never included
on the novel timeline even though its events are integral to
understanding what Kevin is talking about. Simply acknowledging Tom's
work on the timeline would have solved this problem.
>On top of all this, some fans have never forgiven the comics for what they
>did (the Emperor's return an inexplicable six years after his death, his
>subesquent death, return, death, return, and death for hopefully the last
>time; the vast variety of increasingly daft Imperial superweapons; the
>mounting silliness) and Dark Empire should probably have been left out of
>the continuity like Splinter of the Mind's Eye and Peter David's kids'
>novels.
LOL! Okay... first, I can tell you with confidence that LFL considers
Splinter part of the current continuity. That's why Dark Horse was
allowed to do a comic adaptation. Second, Peter David didn't write
those books -- Paul and Hollace Davids did. Believe me, I doubt
you'll EVER see Peter David's name on something so poorly written. :)
>In spite of *everything*, though, the original 6-comic DE series
>itself is actually quite good. Most of the problems are because it doesn't
>work at all as a sequel to Zahn.
I agree 100% -- and that goes back to an unfortunate decision to move
the story's setting to after the Zahn books, as you so well explained
above. I've never understood some fans' dislike of it. Yes, I admit
Empire's End is rather weak, but I still rank DE in my "Dark Horse Top
Five" to this day, and DE II, while a bit redundant, is still a great
story as far as I'm concerned.
Sincerely,
Rich Handley (Card...@NO-SPAMunix.asb.com)
Ricardo
news:SLGL3.1839$N64....@dfw-read.news.verio.net...
> I agree 100% -- and that goes back to an unfortunate decision to move
> the story's setting to after the Zahn books, as you so well explained
> above. I've never understood some fans' dislike of it. Yes, I admit
> Empire's End is rather weak, but I still rank DE in my "Dark Horse Top
> Five" to this day, and DE II, while a bit redundant, is still a great
> story as far as I'm concerned.
>
For me, DE has a lot of very good elements to it (the art, the Nal Hutta/Nar
Shadda sequences, the gritty battle sequences, etc.), and these parts of it
I like very much. Its downfall as far as I am concerned, though, is the
fact that the Emperor returned, and the fact that Luke went over to the dark
side. Yes, Vietch tried to provide a logical reason for the Emperor's
return, but I just didn't buy it. And, as I'm sure you can understand, if
you don't buy the fundamental premise of a story, you're not going to think
too much of it.
Boba Fett's return was a lot more believable (falling into the Sarlacc with
all that weaponry, it's not too much of a stretch to imagine him blowing his
way out of there); but the Emperor's return was more like demon possession,
transferring people's essences from one body to another, and a lot of
spiritual Force mumbo-jumbo (IMO) which I didn't care for.
Luke's turn to the dark side and subsequent return did not sit well with me
at all; it all just happened to quickly (in both directions).
Also, both of these elements (Emperor's return, Luke's turn to the dark
side) seem to completely nullify the victory at the end of ROTJ.
These things may not bother you, but they very much bother me (and, I'm
sure, many of the anti-DE'ers)-- which is why I despise, for the most part,
DE.
Ricardo
policrat'
Rich Handley <CardSaf...@unix.asb.com> wrote in message
news:SLGL3.1839$N64....@dfw-read.news.verio.net...
> >It wasn't in a novel: it was the 'Dark Empire' comic series, scripted by
Tom
> >Veitch with art by Cam Kennedy, still available as a trade paperback.
This
> >started off very promisingly - majestic, brooding art, intelligent,
> >well-thought-out script - but as it progressed, it went downhill. After
the
> >success of the original six-issue 'Dark Empire' series, the one-shot
> >'Lightsider' was produced and an arc of three more six-comic series was
> >envisaged (IIRC). Someone at LucasFilm didn't like 'Lightsider', however,
so
> >it's never been published.
>
> Actually, it had nothing to with someone at LFL not liking it. There
> were contractural problems that got in the way of its publication.
> LFL liked it -- and having read it, I can tell you that it's the best
> of the Dark Empire stories. However, things didn't quite go as
> planned and so it never came out.
OK. Sorry. Any way us poor mortals are ever going to see it? And speaking of
such things, what happened to the Tatooine-set novel that KJA mentions
someone (Dave Wolverton?) working on in the preface to the DE tp?
> >Of all Kevin J. Anderson's crimes, perhaps the worst was his decision to
> >incorporate DE and 'Lightsider' (which has *still* not seen the light of
> >day) into the continuity of the novels.
>
> I wouldn't really consider that a crime -- LFL considers the novels
> and comics the same continuity, which is why Exar Kun has been in the
> books and several of the novel characters have appeared in the X-wing
> comics. I think the problem wasn't Kevin's -- in fact, I applaud him
> for being one of the only authors to bother trying to work this piece
> of continuity in -- it was that Dark Empire has never never included
> on the novel timeline even though its events are integral to
> understanding what Kevin is talking about. Simply acknowledging Tom's
> work on the timeline would have solved this problem.
My problem with this isn't that KJA ought to have made things clearer. I
feel that the differences in continuity between Zahn's original trilogy and
DE were (and are) insurmountable, and that trying to put them together has
been bad for both. LFL didn't make KJA adopt DE into the novel continuity,
IIRC: he did it himself when he found out about it, which was, IMHO, a
mistake.
[passing A-wing pilot: "There's... too many acronyms!"]
I agree, by the way, that the LFL determination to maintain the continuity
is preferable to having a whole lot of contradictory novels a la Star Trek,
but then, it was their fault in the first place for not making Bantam and
Dark Horse (or more exactly, Zahn and Veitch) aware of each other.
> >On top of all this, some fans have never forgiven the comics for what
they
> >did (the Emperor's return an inexplicable six years after his death, his
> >subesquent death, return, death, return, and death for hopefully the last
> >time; the vast variety of increasingly daft Imperial superweapons; the
> >mounting silliness) and Dark Empire should probably have been left out of
> >the continuity like Splinter of the Mind's Eye and Peter David's kids'
> >novels.
>
> LOL! Okay... first, I can tell you with confidence that LFL considers
> Splinter part of the current continuity. That's why Dark Horse was
> allowed to do a comic adaptation.
Sorry. I assumed that it was invalidated by such refs. as Zahn's to how
Vader lost his arm.
> Second, Peter David didn't write
> those books -- Paul and Hollace Davids did. Believe me, I doubt
> you'll EVER see Peter David's name on something so poorly written. :)
Oops! I was misinformed there. (if in doubt, blame an anonymous source :)
*Has* he actually written anything SW before 'Skippy the Jedi Droid'?
> >In spite of *everything*, though, the original 6-comic DE series
> >itself is actually quite good. Most of the problems are because it
doesn't
> >work at all as a sequel to Zahn.
>
> I agree 100% -- and that goes back to an unfortunate decision to move
> the story's setting to after the Zahn books, as you so well explained
> above. I've never understood some fans' dislike of it. Yes, I admit
> Empire's End is rather weak, but I still rank DE in my "Dark Horse Top
> Five" to this day, and DE II, while a bit redundant, is still a great
> story as far as I'm concerned.
I feel (as I said) that KJA hamstrung DE2 rather badly, and it's only now,
after *years* of headscratching, that I've finally found a way to reconcile
EE with, say, the BFC. IMHO, it would have been *very* hard to tie DE and
The Thrawn Trilogy together even if they'd kept the original date of DE.
More *could* have been done, I suppose, if they'd let Tim and Tom know about
each other. But life's like that.
> Sincerely,
>
> Rich Handley (Card...@NO-SPAMunix.asb.com)
Policrat'
Unofficial RASSM Scotsman (Retd.)
Dakin
If not, check it out as it goes along way IMO to provide all the continuity
info you need.
Dakin Lowe
policrat' <policraticus@@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7tom7r$5s8$1...@news.ox.ac.uk...
Humble Beginnings
I do have DE, DE2 and consider them outside the timeline as, having
been explained in an earlier post, they don't mesh well, even
considering Stackpole's rendition of the "massive cleaning droids"
which were repairing the the internecine Imperial fighting during DE.
I've pretty much ignored the comics since DE2, b/c of DE2, btw, except
the classic strips collections and the Tales of the Jedi stories. I
probably will get the X-Wing b/c of my love for Stackpole's work, but
the rest can sit on the shelf at the bookstore.
But there are other reasons some things don't fit into continuity.
None mention the half-droid/repulsorlift body Jedi - who's name
escapes me. And Kam Solusar is mentioned, but disappears. No one
mentions the lightsaber Vima-da-Boda gave Leia after Anderson.
There's just too much left out that the 3-part series put in. They'll
never be a regular part of continuity.
But it was Kevin J. Anderson's job as "continuity guy" and "timeline
monitor" and as Bantam's book editor that led him into making the
mistake of trying to incorporate the DE series. I agree with the
assertion that they should remain, like SoME and the Davids' books, a
separate "Elseworlds" type story.
On Sat, 9 Oct 1999 12:00:14 -0500, "Ricardo" <ric...@spam.com> wrote:
>Rich Handley <CardSaf...@unix.asb.com> wrote in message
>news:SLGL3.1839$N64....@dfw-read.news.verio.net...
>> I agree 100% -- and that goes back to an unfortunate decision to move
>> the story's setting to after the Zahn books, as you so well explained
>> above. I've never understood some fans' dislike of it. Yes, I admit
>> Empire's End is rather weak, but I still rank DE in my "Dark Horse Top
>> Five" to this day, and DE II, while a bit redundant, is still a great
>> story as far as I'm concerned.
>>
>
>
>For me, DE has a lot of very good elements to it (the art, the Nal Hutta/Nar
>Shadda sequences, the gritty battle sequences, etc.), and these parts of it
>I like very much. Its downfall as far as I am concerned, though, is the
>fact that the Emperor returned, and the fact that Luke went over to the dark
>side. Yes, Vietch tried to provide a logical reason for the Emperor's
>return, but I just didn't buy it. And, as I'm sure you can understand, if
>you don't buy the fundamental premise of a story, you're not going to think
>too much of it.
>
>Boba Fett's return was a lot more believable (falling into the Sarlacc with
>all that weaponry, it's not too much of a stretch to imagine him blowing his
>way out of there); but the Emperor's return was more like demon possession,
>transferring people's essences from one body to another, and a lot of
>spiritual Force mumbo-jumbo (IMO) which I didn't care for.
>
>Luke's turn to the dark side and subsequent return did not sit well with me
>at all; it all just happened to quickly (in both directions).
>
>Also, both of these elements (Emperor's return, Luke's turn to the dark
>side) seem to completely nullify the victory at the end of ROTJ.
>
>These things may not bother you, but they very much bother me (and, I'm
>sure, many of the anti-DE'ers)-- which is why I despise, for the most part,
>DE.
>
>Ricardo
>
>
--
"Have you ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight?
I always ask that of all my prey.
I just like the sound of it."
Humble Beginnings
ICQ: #4042534
Humble Beginnings
Wish I'd known that aforehand.
--
policrat'
Dakin <LO...@uq.net.au> wrote in message
news:7tp5uq$7h3$1...@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au...
> Have you looked at the Dark Empire Sourcebook from WEG ?
> If not, check it out as it goes along way IMO to provide all the
continuity
> info you need.
Ah, right. The sudden emergence of the Imperial Inner Council after five
years of mysterious absence. Their successful conquest of Cour., surpassing
anything and everything Thrawn had achieved. The complete, sudden collapse
of the NR. Luke's self-promotion to the rank of Jedi Master. The
still-unexplained disappearance of Mara Jade. Luke and Lando's sudden
penchant for running around in Star Destroyers. Luke's sudden discovery,
when his ISD's been shot down on a hostile Cour., that Imperial Palace -
*his home for the past three years* - contains all this Dark Side archive
material. Wedge's unconsciencable abandonement of the Rogues and his amazing
promotion to *General* (Agh! NR fighter-pilots do *not* have US-style ranks
[admittedly, even Stack put his foot in the bantha-yad here]: (flight)
lieutenant; squadron leader; (wing) commander; etc. - RAF ranking system!).
It's possible to say 'well, that's what happens' (which I presume is what
WEG do), but it is neither pausible nor psychologically convincing. It fits
into the continuity like a Star Destroyer in a dustbin.
> Dakin Lowe
Policrat'
Unofficial RASSM Ewok (Retd.)
Rich Handley
>Ah, right. The sudden emergence of the Imperial Inner Council after five
>years of mysterious absence. Their successful conquest of Cour., surpassing
>anything and everything Thrawn had achieved. The complete, sudden collapse
>of the NR. Luke's self-promotion to the rank of Jedi Master. The
>still-unexplained disappearance of Mara Jade. Luke and Lando's sudden
>penchant for running around in Star Destroyers.
Actually, Mara's whereabouts at that time has been shown in a couple
of Adventure Journal tales.
Sincerely,
Rich Handley (Card...@NO-SPAMunix.asb.com)
Nathan Butler
I'll leave the matter of referring to DE as an "Elseworlds" story and whatnot
alone. I've argued continuity levels far too many times here in the last year.
As for "Lightsider," it's a DH graphic novel that wound up getting cancelled.
It would've covered Luke happening upon Kam Salusar and turning him to the
Light Side. An abbreviated version of that event (though not quite as it
would've been portrayed in Lightsider) appears at the beginning of the
audiobook/audiodrama version of Dark Empire II (or at least the version that
appears in the Dark Empire audiobook CD set).
--Nathan Butler (jkth...@aol.com)
Star Wars Timeline Author
Every legend has its historian . . .
Subscribe to the SWT today.
http://www.angelfire.com/in/nbproductions/swtinfo.html
policrat'
O...kay. Mara is helping co-ordinate the NR evacuation of Cour. That covers
her until, oh, half-way through the opening crawl. *Moreover* I can't see
P'alpy passing up the opportunities this presents to, firstly, use her link
to him to find out where the NR's withdrawing its forces to and drop a few
battlegroups on them, and secondly, capture her herself and use her in
corrupting Luke.
Of course, the former *could* explain why the NR got in such a mess, and it
*is* just possible that she was wandering arround 'off-camera' on Byss. I'd
just like a few more coherent references.
And none of the other problems have been tied up. I really hoped Isard was
going to steal the Lusankya at the end of IR, which would at least have
begun to make sense of where that huge great Imperial fleet that turned up
in the SWAJ and wiped itself out in the opening crawl of DE came from, but
no....
Lane Allen
I have to say that this current thread on the novels (a surprisingly ON
topic Star Wars discussion) has been a refreshing change from what the
majority of this NG has degraded into these days:
off-topic discussions about Brittany Spear's breasts
fan-wank pissing matches about Star Trek vs. Star Wars
pointless statistical comparisons of Star Wars and Titanic
countless examples of cross-posting trolls and spammers
What the hell happened here? Just a few months ago this was an
interesting place to swap opinions and ideas....
Anncrispin
>interesting place to swap opinions and ideas....
>
I'm afraid The Phantom Menace was what happened...
-Ann C. Crispin
Kwame
Lane Allen <Lane_...@bah.com> wrote in message
news:38024F67...@bah.com...
>
> I have to say that this current thread on the novels (a surprisingly ON
> topic Star Wars discussion) has been a refreshing change from what the
> majority of this NG has degraded into these days:
>
> off-topic discussions about Brittany Spear's breasts
breasts are cool
Çheetah!
No.. breasts are "dual", unless, of course you're Ann Gillian...
> -Çheetah!-
I know this is going to get me flamed.. so what?
Steve
wrote:
>
>I have to say that this current thread on the novels (a surprisingly ON
>topic Star Wars discussion) has been a refreshing change from what the
>majority of this NG has degraded into these days:
Just a quick question. Which newsgroup exactly are you referring to.
You posted this message to 2 of them.
rec.arts.sf.starwars.misc and alt.fan.starwars aren't the same group.
Steve O'Neil
http://www.oneil.com.au/steve/
Anti-spam
To send me an email, change the az in my address to au
Lane Allen
> Just a quick question. Which newsgroup exactly are you referring to.
> You posted this message to 2 of them.
> rec.arts.sf.starwars.misc and alt.fan.starwars aren't the same group.
Sorry, you're right. I was talking about alt.fan.starwars. Right after
I hit send I realized that this thread had been crossposted. I've never
checked out rec.arts.sf.starwars.misc so I don't know if rassm has been
innundated with the same volume of moronic off-topis threads as afs
has....
Lane Allen
> > > off-topic discussions about Brittany Spear's breasts
> >
> > breasts are cool
>
> No.. breasts are "dual", unless, of course you're Ann Gillian...
I rest my case...
Çheetah!
no, no, no.. it's "I breast my case..". <serious look>
> -Çheetah!-
Çheetah!
Where do you think they got started.. at least this NG shows a little
intellect & wit about it, though - as opposed to all those AFS'ers who
add the `©' character to their handles, as if that makes them important,
or something.. welcome to the fun group!
> -Çheetah!-
tayv...@my-deja.com
Bernie Reger <bre...@nwu.edu> wrote:
> I wonder if anyone can help me with a small problem. In reading many
> of
> the StarWars novels out there (most by Bantam Books), the story makes
> mention of a time when the Emperor came back as a clone of himself.
> During this time, Luke turned over to the dark side if only for a
> brief
> time.
> Does any one know the name of this story? So many books make
reference
> to these events, and I'd like to read of them first hand.
Those references are, of course, to the sequel story-treatments
(episodes 7, 8, 9) that George Lucas sold to C20 Fox as part of
the "nine-movie-deal", due to some very unusual legal dealings the
ownership of said treatments has been in dispute ever since. This is
way Lucas now denies that those movies will ever happen.
Because of the legal problems the only known copy that exists is being
held by the legal firm of D.Whorce & D.Empyr who allowed KJA to ride
the treatments so his novels would remain incontinuity. It's all in
the AFS FAQ, but I don't think that RASSM are on-topic enough to talk
about Star Wars in their FAQ.
---
- Dug.
---
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
tayv...@my-deja.com
CardSaf...@unix.asb.com (Rich Handley) wrote:
> Second, Peter David didn't write
> those books -- Paul and Hollace Davids did. Believe me, I doubt
> you'll EVER see Peter David's name on something so poorly written. :)
Spoken like someone who's never seen any of his films... ;)
Dakin
<tayv...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:7u6ef3$t66$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <37FE17EA...@nwu.edu>,
> Bernie Reger <bre...@nwu.edu> wrote:
> > I wonder if anyone can help me with a small problem. In reading many
> > of
> > the StarWars novels out there (most by Bantam Books), the story makes
> > mention of a time when the Emperor came back as a clone of himself.
> > During this time, Luke turned over to the dark side if only for a
> > brief
> > time.
>
> > Does any one know the name of this story? So many books make
> reference
> > to these events, and I'd like to read of them first hand.
>
> Those references are, of course, to the sequel story-treatments
> (episodes 7, 8, 9) that George Lucas sold to C20 Fox as part of
> the "nine-movie-deal", due to some very unusual legal dealings the
> ownership of said treatments has been in dispute ever since. This is
> way Lucas now denies that those movies will ever happen.
>
> Because of the legal problems the only known copy that exists is being
> held by the legal firm of D.Whorce & D.Empyr who allowed KJA to ride
> the treatments so his novels would remain incontinuity. It's all in
> the AFS FAQ,
Well in that case, I've certainly been into alot of D.Whorce & D.Empyr law
firms here in Australia and seen that copy, called Dark Empire sitting in
what must have been their foyer, and I thought they were comic stores.
If this is in the AFS FAQ (wouldn't know, haven't read it all), I advise you
to delete the FAQ and ask each question and topic again to this and other
newsgroups to get your own answers.
They might be right about the problems concerning episodes 7,8,9 and Dark
Empire might have been based on them, but it is available out there along
with Dark Empire 2, Empire's End (?) which are all comics.
Dakin
>but I don't think that RASSM are on-topic enough to talk
> about Star Wars in their FAQ.
>
Rich Handley
Freakin' hilarious! :)
tayv...@my-deja.com wrote:
>Those references are, of course, to the sequel story-treatments
>(episodes 7, 8, 9) that George Lucas sold to C20 Fox as part of
>the "nine-movie-deal", due to some very unusual legal dealings the
>ownership of said treatments has been in dispute ever since. This is
>way Lucas now denies that those movies will ever happen.
>Because of the legal problems the only known copy that exists is being
>held by the legal firm of D.Whorce & D.Empyr who allowed KJA to ride
>the treatments so his novels would remain incontinuity. It's all in
>the AFS FAQ, but I don't think that RASSM are on-topic enough to talk
>about Star Wars in their FAQ.
Sincerely,
Rich Handley (Card...@NO-SPAMunix.asb.com)
Rich Handley
>In article <SLGL3.1839$N64....@dfw-read.news.verio.net>,
> CardSaf...@unix.asb.com (Rich Handley) wrote:
>> Second, Peter David didn't write
>> those books -- Paul and Hollace Davids did. Believe me, I doubt
>> you'll EVER see Peter David's name on something so poorly written. :)
>Spoken like someone who's never seen any of his films... ;)
Oh.... good point. I'd forgotten about his films. Yah. Ugh.
Ummm... okay, I retract my former comment. :)
Sincerely,
Rich Handley (Card...@NO-SPAMunix.asb.com)
tayv...@my-deja.com
"Dakin" <LO...@uq.net.au> wrote:
> > Because of the legal problems the only known copy that exists is
being
> > held by the legal firm of D.Whorce & D.Empyr who allowed KJA to ride
> > the treatments so his novels would remain incontinuity. It's all in
> > the AFS FAQ,
> Well in that case, I've certainly been into alot of D.Whorce &
> D.Empyr law
> firms here in Australia and seen that copy, called Dark Empire
> sitting in
> what must have been their foyer, and I thought they were comic stores.
D. Empire? Are you sure that's the spelling?
tayv...@my-deja.com
CardSaf...@unix.asb.com (Rich Handley) wrote:
> tayv...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >In article <SLGL3.1839$N64....@dfw-read.news.verio.net>,
> > CardSaf...@unix.asb.com (Rich Handley) wrote:
> >> Second, Peter David didn't write
> >> those books -- Paul and Hollace Davids did. Believe me, I doubt
> >> you'll EVER see Peter David's name on something so poorly
written. :)
> >Spoken like someone who's never seen any of his films... ;)
> Oh.... good point. I'd forgotten about his films. Yah. Ugh.
> Ummm... okay, I retract my former comment. :)
I had a spooky incident involving Peter A. David.
He shares my initials. Which is more coincidental than spooky.
But, as a kid, when playing spy-games, I used the "cover name" Peter
David. I did this because I thought I'd use my initials, and Peter and
David were common names. I always thought this was cute, once I
discovered Peter David's work.
But "Spy Boy" Peter's latest comic freaks me out.
tayv...@my-deja.com
OK, let's pretend that you've been given the task of making an animated
series, based mainly on existing material: movies, animated stuff,
comics, books, whatever...
What would you do... what continuity shuffling would you preform...
what would you have to keep... what would you have to leave out... and
what would you re-jig to fit?
Dakin
<tayv...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:7ue5rm$rdk$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <7u6ks7$eri$1...@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>,
> "Dakin" <LO...@uq.net.au> wrote:
>
> > > Because of the legal problems the only known copy that exists is
> being
> > > held by the legal firm of D.Whorce & D.Empyr who allowed KJA to ride
> > > the treatments so his novels would remain incontinuity. It's all in
> > > the AFS FAQ,
>
> > Well in that case, I've certainly been into alot of D.Whorce &
> > D.Empyr law
> > firms here in Australia and seen that copy, called Dark Empire
> > sitting in
> > what must have been their foyer, and I thought they were comic stores.
>
> D. Empire? Are you sure that's the spelling?
Are you refering to the "D.Empyr" or the Dark Empire part of my statement ?
If it's the first then I don't understand and it's not important as I was
refering to your previous statement (ie. it's your spelling).
If it's the second, then yes I'm sure the comic in question (as in the
original post) is definitely called Dark Empire, there are also two
'followup' comics called Dark Empire II (as in 2) and Empire's End. If you
are after definitive confirmation of what I'm saying, then I suggest you
look up Dark Horse's WEB site ( http://www.dhorse.com/ ).
There is also a Dark Empire Sourcebook produced by West End Games for use
with the Star Wars Roleplaying Game (which I have in front of me).
I hope that has answered you query and has been of some help.
Dakin
Simon H. Lee
line of high-kicking electrons to spell out:
>
>
>OK, let's pretend that you've been given the task of making an animated
>series, based mainly on existing material: movies, animated stuff,
>comics, books, whatever...
>
>What would you do... what continuity shuffling would you preform...
>what would you have to keep... what would you have to leave out... and
>what would you re-jig to fit?
Rogue Squadron: The Animated Series. Sticking mostly to the
books and comics for the main plotline but with other original plotlines
thrown in every so often. It's a familiar premise and would probably be
easier than having to wrangle the rest of the novels around.
--
RASSM FAQ -- http://www.shavenwookie.com/rassmfaq.html
| __
| (__ * _ _ _ _ "The cinema is not a slice of life but
| __)|| | |(_)| \ a piece of cake." --Alfred Hitchcock
|__________________ <*> A L L D O N E ! B Y E B Y E ! (-o-)
Çheetah!
>
> OK, let's pretend that you've been given the task of making an animated
> series, based mainly on existing material: movies, animated stuff,
> comics, books, whatever...
>
> What would you do... what continuity shuffling would you preform...
> what would you have to keep... what would you have to leave out... and
> what would you re-jig to fit?
I ould *definitely* go with the first Marvel comic series, on the
provision that the Marvel bigwigs (aka bean-counters, brown-nosers &
censor-playtoys) keep their slimey little mitts out of the production
details & just concentrate on copyright issues..
Even though I'm a Marvel fan thru & thru, I just can't stand ANY of
their animated series.. they can't even seem to get the voice
characterizations right.. much less remain canon to the issues they've
re-written for animation.. those old Marvel stories are fine without
having every cartoon script hack from Marvel dicking with `em..
(Imagine seeing an animated version of "the Stenax Shuffle"...<G>)
<salud> Here's to the Hoojib's!
> Çheetah!
. 8========#<^>#========8 8========#<^>#========8
`Virtual Dyslexia: http://www.primenet.com/~ccheetah/index.html
> StarWars Trivia: http://mercury.beseen.com/quizlet/r/17378/quizlet.js
> StarTrek Trivia: http://mercury.beseen.com/quizlet/m/30788/quizlet.js
> Tolkien! Trivia: http://mercury.beseen.com/quizlet/m/30784/quizlet.js
. 8========#<^>#========8 8========#<^>#========8
--- It's not so *easy* to catch the drunken god....
-- "The drunken man confuses Demons.. or something like that..."
- "The drunken Demon confuses Mankind.." [it made sense in context]
"Magic beads! we stole`em from a Demon, we did. ..lucky for us it was a
*stupid* Demon.."
Darth Bob
the Gungans.
--
Visit my Website at:
www.freeyellow.com/members8/korra or
www.hotyellow98.com/bobschuster
Sith Lord defender of the Empire
remove nospam for e-mail
<tayv...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:7ueeoj$om$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
|
|
| OK, let's pretend that you've been given the task of making an animated
| series, based mainly on existing material: movies, animated stuff,
| comics, books, whatever...
|
| What would you do... what continuity shuffling would you preform...
| what would you have to keep... what would you have to leave out... and
| what would you re-jig to fit?
|
Squirk
fmc
What about Hiro (sp?) and the Iskalonians? Man, from about issue 55 or so
til about...well, the end of ROJ, those were *great* comics. The Nagai
sucked, of course, as did the whatchamacalits that followed (fat beetle
pirates?!), but by then the art had passed into what I very politely call
'surreal'. Not to say, 'crap'.
Oh, it *was* good to see Rik Duel show up in the Ann Crispin books. Would be
cool to see some Zeltrons, though, in the books. Especially female ones...
Jonathan
(using my dad's email account--reply to chic...@hotmail.com)
Çheetah! wrote in message <380ACE2B...@hotmale.com>...
tayv...@my-deja.com
> > In article <7u6ks7$eri$1...@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>,
> > "Dakin" <LO...@uq.net.au> wrote:
> > > > Because of the legal problems the only known copy that exists is
> > > > being
> > > > held by the legal firm of D.Whorce & D.Empyr who allowed KJA to
> > > > ride
> > > > the treatments so his novels would remain incontinuity. It's
> > > >all in
> > > > the AFS FAQ,
> > > Well in that case, I've certainly been into alot of D.Whorce &
> > > D.Empyr law
> > > firms here in Australia and seen that copy, called Dark Empire
> > > sitting in
> > > what must have been their foyer, and I thought they were comic
> > >stores.
> > D. Empire? Are you sure that's the spelling?
> Are you refering to the "D.Empyr" or the Dark Empire part of my
> statement ?
You really don't get the joke, do you?
Policraticus
tayv...@my-deja.com wrote:
> OK, let's pretend that you've been given the task of making an animated
> series, based mainly on existing material: movies, animated stuff,
> comics, books, whatever...
>
> What would you do... what continuity shuffling would you preform...
> what would you have to keep... what would you have to leave out... and
> what would you re-jig to fit?
I wouldn't. Simple as that. A computer game based on the HttE trilogy,
perhaps. Or I'd string Lucas up by his toenails until he agreed to make
Epp.VII-IX.
Sincerely,
Rich Handley
>OK, let's pretend that you've been given the task of making an animated
>series, based mainly on existing material: movies, animated stuff,
>comics, books, whatever...
>What would you do... what continuity shuffling would you preform...
>what would you have to keep... what would you have to leave out... and
>what would you re-jig to fit?
I'd do a continuation of the X-wing comic series, which I consider the
high point of Dark Horse's turn at the reigns. Canceling X-wing, in
my opinion, was a grand mistake. The series is perfectly suited to
animation, though, so I'd almost prefer it come back in that format.
As for juggling continuty -- I'd try very hard not to.
Sincerely,
Rich Handley (Card...@NO-SPAMunix.asb.com)
Çheetah!
Let's not forget the Lahsbees.. especially around puberty time..
And I definitely want an episode that tours Zeltros.. now *that* would
be bitchin'!!
> Çheetah!
. 8========#<^>#========8 8========#<^>#========8
`Virtual Dyslexia: http://www.primenet.com/~ccheetah/index.html
> StarWars Trivia: http://mercury.beseen.com/quizlet/r/17378/quizlet.js
> StarTrek Trivia: http://mercury.beseen.com/quizlet/m/30788/quizlet.js
JRRTolkien Trivia: http://mercury.beseen.com/quizlet/m/30784/quizlet.js
. 8========#<^>#========8 8========#<^>#========8
--- It's not so *easy* to catch the drunken god....
-- "The drunken man confuses Demons.. or something like that..."
- "The drunken Demon confuses Mankind.." [it makes sense in context]
Glenn Misztal
series, but if I was asked to do a comic and a novel as well.
1) If I made an animated series I'd call it Star Wars : Bounty Hunters.
Boba Fett and a couple of others compete for bountys and it could have a one
shot on a specific bounty Hunter every week. Jabba could be in this as well.
It'd be very much like the X-Men animated series.
2) A comic called "Star Wars : Lady Vader" where a mystery Jedi woman is
wearing a prototype of Darth Vader's suit (without the helmet, but the mask
and long flowing hair and very curved - hubba hubba!) is assasinating New
Republic World representatives with a lightsaber. Mara and Leia accuse each
other of being this mystery woman, Mara because she used to be a Dark Jedi
and Leia because the Noghri used to give her that title.
In the end, the killer is revealed. (Kinda goofy, I know...)Who is it you
wonder??? Hmmmm....
3) Books? Once the new trilogy is written, I'd try to tie them into a new
novel post NJO. Knowing some idiot in the future he'll write a novel where
we see "Jar Jar Binks - last surviving Gungan". Grrrrr.... I'd also
definately make sure that the novels point out the difference between a Dark
Jedi and a Sith and piss off all those canon-anal people that don't care for
the novels or movies.
Anyway, now that you've seen my suggestions, please feel free to send flames
this way!! :)
- Glenn
Darth Maul
bigscreen, so why not make an animated series out of it.
tayv...@my-deja.com heeft geschreven in bericht
<7ueeoj$om$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>
>
>OK, let's pretend that you've been given the task of making an animated
>series, based mainly on existing material: movies, animated stuff,
>comics, books, whatever...
>
>What would you do... what continuity shuffling would you preform...
>what would you have to keep... what would you have to leave out... and
>what would you re-jig to fit?
>
Scott
Glenn Misztal wrote ...
> Okay, here's what I'd do, not based on if I was given run on an animated
> series, but if I was asked to do a comic and a novel as well.
>
> wearing a prototype of Darth Vader's suit (without the helmet, but the
mask
> and long flowing hair and very curved - hubba hubba!) is assasinating New
> Republic World representatives with a lightsaber. Mara and Leia accuse
each
> other of being this mystery woman, Mara because she used to be a Dark Jedi
> and Leia because the Noghri used to give her that title.
> In the end, the killer is revealed. (Kinda goofy, I know...)Who is it you
> wonder??? Hmmmm....
luke! luke! is it luke? i think it's luke. i hear he goes in for that
sort of thing. the wheezing you hear is part of his 'scarfing' ritual.
scott
Glenn Misztal
Scott wrote in message ...
>
>luke! luke! is it luke? i think it's luke. i hear he goes in for that
>sort of thing. the wheezing you hear is part of his 'scarfing' ritual.
Luke in his father's drag? Nahhh...
I think some more likely Candidates are either Jaina, Mon Mothma or Calista.
Take yer pick.
- Glenn
Dougie
<snip>
> Knowing some idiot in the future he'll write a novel where
> we see "Jar Jar Binks - last surviving Gungan". Grrrrr....
>
<snip>
Oh God I can just see that now. Jar-Jar escaping the purge until the
Gungans can rise again.
Bub-Bub: Master Jar-Jar! Mesa can be a a Gungan too, eh?
Jar-Jar: Nosa Bub-Bub, too old aresa yousa. Fulla of anger are yousa.
Disembodied voice: So was mesa if yousa remember.
Bub-Bub: I wanna be a a bombad Gungan toosa. Mesa not afraid.
Jar-Jar: Yousa will be, yousa will be.....eh?
Jar-Jar: When gone is mesa, the last of the Gungans will yousa be.....
I think I might just kill myself now if it's all the same to you.
> x...@lsh.org
>
best,
Dougie :)
tayv...@my-deja.com
"Glenn Misztal" <xs@(nospam)lsh.org> wrote:
> Okay, here's what I'd do, not based on if I was given run on an
animated
> series, but if I was asked to do a comic and a novel as well.
> 2) A comic called "Star Wars : Lady Vader" where a mystery Jedi woman
> is
> wearing a prototype of Darth Vader's suit (without the helmet, but
> the mask
> and long flowing hair and very curved - hubba hubba!) is assasinating
> New
> Republic World representatives with a lightsaber. Mara and Leia
> accuse each
> other of being this mystery woman, Mara because she used to be a Dark
> Jedi
> and Leia because the Noghri used to give her that title.
> In the end, the killer is revealed. (Kinda goofy, I know...)Who is it
> you
> wonder??? Hmmmm....
Well, duh, it'd have to be Shira Brie.
tayv...@my-deja.com
"Darth Maul" <Dart...@Zap.A2000.nl> wrote:
> The Thrawn Trilogy, there will(probably) be no Episode VII, VIII & IX
> on the
> bigscreen, so why not make an animated series out of it.
OK... but... what happens when you run outta Thrawn? What else would
you adapt?
tayv...@my-deja.com
Policraticus <policr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I wouldn't. Simple as that.
OK. Seems a rather stupid question to reply to in that case, but what
the hey.
> A computer game based on the HttE trilogy,
> perhaps.
What type of game?
> Or I'd string Lucas up by his toenails until he agreed to make
> Epp.VII-IX.
Oh, cool, I *really* want to see a film made by Lucas that he doesn't
want to make.
tayv...@my-deja.com
sh...@bu.edu (Simon H. Lee) wrote:
> tayv...@my-deja.com choreographed a chorus
> line of high-kicking electrons to spell out:
> >OK, let's pretend that you've been given the task of making an
> >animated
> >series, based mainly on existing material: movies, animated stuff,
> >comics, books, whatever...
> Rogue Squadron: The Animated Series. Sticking mostly to the
> books and comics for the main plotline but with other original
> plotlines
> thrown in every so often. It's a familiar premise and would probably
> be
> easier than having to wrangle the rest of the novels around.
A very popular choice.
Darth Bob
based on anything but the Gungans, you are off your rocker! Why do you think
GL thought up the Gungans? So he could make a Saturday morning cartoon show
about them just like he did with the Ewoks. One big half hour long comercial
for the kiddies to watch then beg momma for the new Boss Jar Jar Action
figure.Then right after the Gungan adventures will come the Adventures of
Young Anakin Skywalker, where we follow the escapades of our Jedi in
training as he follows Obi-Wan around getting into trouble and barely
escaping each time. If GL sactions an animated series it will be for the
kiddies. I hope I'm wrong.
--
Visit my Website at:
www.freeyellow.com/members8/korra or
www.hotyellow98.com/bobschuster
Sith Lord defender of the Empire
remove nospam for e-mail
Dougie <dou...@mailbox.co.uk> wrote in message
news:380CEA...@mailbox.co.uk...
Brian Mays
tayv...@my-deja.com wrote:
> OK... but... what happens when you run outta Thrawn? What else would
> you adapt?
I've been playing with some Macromedia Flash animations. I've been
wanting to tackle this for awhile, and now have some knowledge (albeit,
not an EXPERT) on it. It may be fun to adapt some FanFics!!!
Brian Mays
Darth Maul
etc
tayv...@my-deja.com heeft geschreven in bericht
<7uje16$dts$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <7uhnkh$rnh$1...@tesla.a2000.nl>,
> "Darth Maul" <Dart...@Zap.A2000.nl> wrote:
>> The Thrawn Trilogy, there will(probably) be no Episode VII, VIII & IX
>> on the
>> bigscreen, so why not make an animated series out of it.
>
>OK... but... what happens when you run outta Thrawn? What else would
>you adapt?
>
CandyFish
animated
> series, but if I was asked to do a comic and a novel as well.
> 2) A comic called "Star Wars : Lady Vader" where a mystery Jedi woman
> is
> wearing a prototype of Darth Vader's suit (without the helmet, but
> the mask
> and long flowing hair and very curved - hubba hubba!) is assasinating
> New
> Republic World representatives with a lightsaber. Mara and Leia
> accuse each
> other of being this mystery woman, Mara because she used to be a Dark
> Jedi
> and Leia because the Noghri used to give her that title.
> In the end, the killer is revealed. (Kinda goofy, I know...)Who is it
> you
> wonder??? Hmmmm....
Well, duh, it'd have to be Shira Brie.
---
- Dug.>>
Which segues nicely into what I would do...Number one, I'd hire Paul Dini and
his partner to streamline and simplify the entire mess that is the Expanded
Universe. Dini and Co. have proven time and again on the Batman and Superman
series that you CAN take even the lamest characters ever conceived of in a
mythology (Ace the Batdog, anyone?) and give them an interesting spin. Not only
that, they masterfully combined all the best elements of past interpretations
of the main plotlines and characters. (The animated series play host to the
DEFINITIVE Joke, Penguin, Mr. Freeze, Lex Luthor, and many others.)
After the highly lopsided character development that Salvatore granted only to
a precious few in Vector Prime, I am now convinced that only Dini, his partner
(can't remember the guy's name, sorry) and possibly Stackpole could re-invent
the whole Star Wars Expanded Universe mythology so that it would actually make
sense.
With the above in mind, I would insist that they include the Marvel series in
the newly-engineered continuity. Whatever Marvel's sins in the past, none of
them can be worse than Dark Empire, Crimson Empire, Shadows of the
Empire...(Hey, here's an idea! Don't end your stories with the word "Empire!")
and other colossal missteps in attempting to 'mature' the Star Wars comic
series. For every Serphidian and Tof, Marvel also had truly fantastic creations
like Shira Brie and Valance the Hunter. In fact, I still think that Mara Jade
is a suspiciously-re-engineered Shira Brie.
I'd make Shira part of the Order of the Emperor's Hand...five or six assassins,
who hand-picked by either Vader or Palpatine, all with red hair and green
eyes...Shira was one, Mara was another. Vader picked Shira to go after Luke,
and Palpy picked Mara. A Mara-Shira ('scuse me, now she's Lumiya) showdown
would kick major butt. And there would be other assassins in the league, and no
one would know what became of them...
I'd involve the droids a lot more, in intelligent storylines with emotional
depth. It CAN be done. Brian Daley proved that on the Radio Series. And, since
VP opened the door to radical changes, I'd engineer a plot that eventuates (is
that a word?) in both Threepio and Artoo requiring and getting MAJOR upgrades -
essentially, their memories transferred into entirely new bodies. If the
Expanded Universe can introduce Guri, a Human Replica Droid who really has no
place in SW but is there anyway, surely there is room for some new droid bodies
with much more advanced technology. Threepio would have smoother edges, a more
humanlike appearance, and an articulated face with eyelids, a mouth and facial
muscles. Artoo would still beep, but he'd have a translation screen - and he'd
hover.
I think I'd also give Threepio a girlfriend. (Insert tired "But he's gay!"
jokes here...go ahead, I'll wait...done yet? Okay.) She'd be a whip-smart,
assertive, independently-thinking 'companion droid' who would look like an
anime robot version of Diana Rigg in that Mrs. Peel catsuit. Her other purpose?
Well...(ATTENTION: VP SPOILERS AHEAD)
10
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1
Since Chewie's gone, a lot of people have been suggesting like-replacements for
Han's co-pilot. (Chewie's son Waru, his nephew Lowie, some of Han's old friends
from his younger days, etc.) I say the hell with that - he needs to clash with
someone who pisses him off. Someone whom he wouldn't want to be his co-pilot in
a million YEARS, but has to use out of necessity. Someone who isn't intimidated
by his attitude and can go toe-to-toe with him on any issue or insult match.
And yet this same being still would prove to be knowledgeable and above all
loyal when the going gets tough. Who better than a highly-advanced, liberated
she-droid with a mind of her own? :)
Well, that's for starters. I'd write more, but my keyboard's melting from the
strain. :)
********
Candyfish }><{{{{">
Member of the Artoo Fan Base (Fans of the Can)
http://members.aol.com/candyfish/droidshrine.htm
"Writing fiction is great! You can make up almost anything." - Ivana Trump
Lane Allen
> It'd be very much like the X-Men animated series.
You mean crappy animation, painful dialog and juvenile plotlines?
Mara and Leia accuse each
> other of being this mystery woman, Mara because she used to be a Dark Jedi
> and Leia because the Noghri used to give her that title.
> In the end, the killer is revealed. (Kinda goofy, I know...)Who is it you
> wonder??? Hmmmm....
Goofy is the dark Jedi? Hmmm, Disney may not go for that...
tayv...@my-deja.com
cand...@aol.comprodroid (CandyFish) wrote:
> Which segues nicely into what I would do...Number one, I'd hire Paul
> Dini and
> his partner to streamline and simplify the entire mess that is the
Expanded
> Universe
BTW: I'm think the name's Bruce Timm... but I could be wrong.
> With the above in mind, I would insist that they include the Marvel
> series in
> the newly-engineered continuity. Whatever Marvel's sins in the past,
> none of
> them can be worse than Dark Empire, Crimson Empire, Shadows of the
> Empire...(Hey, here's an idea! Don't end your stories with the
> word "Empire!")
Ah, so you weren't a fan of Heir To The Empire...
> series. For every Serphidian and Tof, Marvel also had truly fantastic
> creations
> like Shira Brie and Valance the Hunter. In fact, I still think that
> Mara Jade
> is a suspiciously-re-engineered Shira Brie.
> I'd make Shira part of the Order of the Emperor's Hand...five or six
> assassins,
> who hand-picked by either Vader or Palpatine, all with red hair and
> green
> eyes...Shira was one, Mara was another. Vader picked Shira to go
> after Luke,
> and Palpy picked Mara. A Mara-Shira ('scuse me, now she's Lumiya)
> showdown
> would kick major butt. And there would be other assassins in the
> league, and no
> one would know what became of them...
Interesting.
> I think I'd also give Threepio a girlfriend. (Insert tired "But he's
> gay!"
> jokes here...go ahead, I'll wait...done yet? Okay.) She'd be a whip-
> smart,
> assertive, independently-thinking 'companion droid' who would look
> like an
> anime robot version of Diana Rigg in that Mrs. Peel catsuit.
What about Tay Vanis' EL-914 ("Ellie")
CandyFish
> series in
> the newly-engineered continuity. Whatever Marvel's sins in the past,
> none of
> them can be worse than Dark Empire, Crimson Empire, Shadows of the
> Empire...(Hey, here's an idea! Don't end your stories with the
> word "Empire!")
Ah, so you weren't a fan of Heir To The Empire...>>
Ah, but Dark Horse only *adapted* that one...they didn't write it outright.
<<> I think I'd also give Threepio a girlfriend. (Insert tired "But he's
> gay!"
> jokes here...go ahead, I'll wait...done yet? Okay.) She'd be a whip-
> smart,
> assertive, independently-thinking 'companion droid' who would look
> like an
> anime robot version of Diana Rigg in that Mrs. Peel catsuit.
What about Tay Vanis' EL-914 ("Ellie")
---
- Dug.>>
She got blowed up real good, remember? Threepio even "cried" about it.
'Sides, Threepio deserves a chick droid with a more lively personality.
Jevon den Ridder
>
> <<> With the above in mind, I would insist that they include the Marvel
> > series in
> > the newly-engineered continuity. Whatever Marvel's sins in the past,
> > none of
> > them can be worse than Dark Empire, Crimson Empire, Shadows of the
> > Empire...(Hey, here's an idea! Don't end your stories with the
> > word "Empire!")
>
> Ah, so you weren't a fan of Heir To The Empire...>>
>
> Ah, but Dark Horse only *adapted* that one...they didn't write it outright.
And a beautiful adaption it was. Do you forget that SOTE was a Bantam
product?
--
[Something New]
Rev. Jevon den Ridder [Remove NOSPAM for email]
http://welcome.to/agelastos
Lode-Run Xevious
Brian Mays escreveu na mensagem <380E5537...@swbell.net>...
>
>
>tayv...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>> OK... but... what happens when you run outta Thrawn? What else would
>> you adapt?
>
>wanting to tackle this for awhile, and now have some knowledge (albeit,
>not an EXPERT) on it. It may be fun to adapt some FanFics!!!
Been considering that too... but I really don't have the time. The AFS
Episode II could be a good fanfic to adapt. Drawing characters with the
mouse is a pain, would take an awful lot of time...
Lode-Run Xevious, Jedi Master.
[eating cookies]
Lode-Run Xevious
are all killed in Ep2 or 3. Rememnber CGI is each day cheaper to make, and
in a few years it will be possible to make a weekly show with Gungans all
CGI!
BTW, speaking of gungan destruction... do you think Naboo will be destroyed
in Ep2 or 3?
Lode-Run Xevious, Jedi Master.
[CGI is cool]
Darth Bob escreveu na mensagem ...
Brian Mays
Lode-Run Xevious wrote:
> >I've been playing with some Macromedia Flash animations. I've been
> >wanting to tackle this for awhile, and now have some knowledge (albeit,
> >not an EXPERT) on it. It may be fun to adapt some FanFics!!!
>
> Been considering that too... but I really don't have the time. The AFS
> Episode II could be a good fanfic to adapt. Drawing characters with the
> mouse is a pain, would take an awful lot of time...
yeah, it would. It's a matter of adapting to Flash's strengths. You can't
do full animation, it IS too time consuming. But you can do a close
approximation! :-)
BTW...i draw my characters with a pen and scan 'em in. :-)
Brian
Yavin
Lode-Run Xevious wrote:
| In fact I believe there is a possibility for a Gungan series,
| unless they are all killed in Ep2 or 3.
Not necessarily. The series could be set in a time *before* the events of
TPM, just like "Droids" was set before ANH.
In any case, GL would find any valid excuse to shove Gungans down kid's
throats.
--
Yavin
http://members.xoom.com/Planet_Yavin
I'm starting to hate the guy's guts.
====================================
The care for details does not make perfection,
but perfection is full of details.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com * The Internet's Discussion Network *
* The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! *
Yavin
<tayv...@my-deja.com> wrote:
| OK, let's pretend that you've been given the task of making an animated
| series, based mainly on existing material: movies, animated stuff,
| comics, books, whatever...
|
| What would you do... what continuity shuffling would you preform...
| what would you have to keep... what would you have to leave out... and
| what would you re-jig to fit?
|
I have to choices:
- Tales of the Jedi: with a dark tone, sort of a middle point between
Batman: The Animated Series and Spawn.
- The X-Wing/Rogue Squadron series: haven't read any of the books or
comics, but I'm a Wedge fan, plus I love those space battles.
:-)
--
Yavin
http://members.xoom.com/Planet_Yavin
Rich Handley
Unfortunately, from what I've been informed by LFL, there are no plans
whatsoever for a new animated series.
"Yavin" <planet...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Lode-Run Xevious wrote:
>| In fact I believe there is a possibility for a Gungan series,
>| unless they are all killed in Ep2 or 3.
>Not necessarily. The series could be set in a time *before* the events of
>TPM, just like "Droids" was set before ANH.
>In any case, GL would find any valid excuse to shove Gungans down kid's
>throats.
>--
>Yavin
>http://members.xoom.com/Planet_Yavin
>I'm starting to hate the guy's guts.
>====================================
>The care for details does not make perfection,
>but perfection is full of details.
>* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com * The Internet's Discussion Network *
>* The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! *
Sincerely,
Rich Handley (Card...@NO-SPAMunix.asb.com)
tayv...@my-deja.com
CardSaf...@unix.asb.com (Rich Handley) wrote:
> Unfortunately, from what I've been informed by LFL, there are no plans
> whatsoever for a new animated series.
Judging by the open hostility on just mentioning "animated Star Wars"
in a fun "what-if" thread... I can imagine why.
Rich Handley
>In article <2v8R3.2566$pp1....@dfw-read.news.verio.net>,
> CardSaf...@unix.asb.com (Rich Handley) wrote:
>> Unfortunately, from what I've been informed by LFL, there are no plans
>> whatsoever for a new animated series.
>Judging by the open hostility on just mentioning "animated Star Wars"
>in a fun "what-if" thread... I can imagine why.
Agreed. Some people, when they don't like something, can be pretty...
ahem... outspoken. Personally, I have mixed feelings about how well
the idea would work, but I'd still be happy to give it a shot if they
launched an animated series.
Sincerely,
Rich Handley (Card...@NO-SPAMunix.asb.com)
Nateherrick
I bet they could get Mark Hamil for the voice of mentor Luke Skywalker. What
would be even better is if the animation style was like the Batman and Superman
cartoons which are top notch in my book.
--nate
BlkDrgn85
Seeing that the chances of getting a Star Wars series taking place after ROTJ
in the movies, I for one would be elated to find out that George Lucas was
behind a large budgeted Animated series. I'd prefer that he used the Japanese
animators that have done such films as Street Fighter the animated movie and
that it come out as just three films as they would have if it were live. If
they could get Harrison and Hamill to do do their voices, I think it would be
great.
Black Dragon
http://www.angelfire.com/md/blackdragon/wrestlingresume.html (US Wrestling and
tape trade site)
http://www.angelfire.com/wi/dragonwingdojo (Puroresu and videogame site))
http://www.bonebreakers.com (Axl Rotten's Wrestling School)
L.H. Sie
> Seeing that the chances of getting a Star Wars series taking place after ROTJ
> in the movies, I for one would be elated to find out that George Lucas was
> behind a large budgeted Animated series. I'd prefer that he used the Japanese
> animators that have done such films as Street Fighter the animated movie and
> that it come out as just three films as they would have if it were live. If
> they could get Harrison and Hamill to do do their voices, I think it would be
> great.
Well... they made Star Wars manga comics, so I suppose maybe a Star Wars
anime series is possible. :) (That might be cool, actually... the
manga's came out great, IMHO, so who knows about an anime thing...)
> Black Dragon
- Aisha "Zephyr" Sie
Improvising my sig again.
http://people.a2000.nl/lhsie/
"It's easier not to be wise... and measure these things by your
brain..."
tayv...@my-deja.com
CardSaf...@unix.asb.com (Rich Handley) wrote:
> tayv...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >Judging by the open hostility on just mentioning "animated Star Wars"
> >in a fun "what-if" thread... I can imagine why.
> Agreed. Some people, when they don't like something, can be pretty...
> ahem... outspoken. Personally, I have mixed feelings about how well
> the idea would work, but I'd still be happy to give it a shot if they
> launched an animated series.
Exactly. If "Star Wars: The Animated Adventures of Jar Jar Binks" came
out, I could understand pre-judging, but "Lucas would only make Gungan
animated series" is a little too pre-pre-judging for my liking.
CandyFish
Didn't forget that...but I ALSO didn't forget "SOTE Evolution," which was
strictly a Dark Horse product that was even MORE sub-par. (A typical episode of
"Lost in Space" had better plot than that atrocity.)
CandyFish
If
> they could get Harrison and Hamill to do do their voices, I think it would be
> great.
LOL. Harrison for the voice of Han. Hehe.
--
[Something New]
Rev. Jevon den Ridder [Remove NOSPAM for email]
http://www.angelfire.com/az/kalarba/rsenc.html or
http://welcome.to/agelastos>>
Yeah...however, if Harrison won't do it, Perry King will.
GENGHIS12
>mediocre TotJ books. It all equals out.
And therefore, Lumiya and the Hunter should certainly make up for Jaxxon and
Orman Tagge. Marvel had some exceptional story ideas along with some real
lemons. However, remember that this series ran for like nine years or some
such ridiculous amount of time. Had it lasted just another two or three more,
it would have been swept up in the whole Zahn "revitalization." Also, remember
that Dark Empire was originally slated to be published under Marvel's Epic
(more adult line) line of comics.
Nathan Butler
Unfortunately, we still wind up with CSW: A Long Time Ago and Vandalhelm
Mission throwing in old Marvel stories that, in some cases, just don't fit for
shit in the new "Official Continuity." Take "Tai" in CSW:ALTA #6 for example.
It happens against the backdrop of the Nagai Invasion . . . which, in Official
Continuity terms, only appears in that story, and is never referenced ever
again.
You gotta love Dark Horse's selective "Look, that's neato!" way of picking what
gets reprinted into Officialdom these days.
But, yes, I hearily agree that, as a separate continuity, the Marvel series
*did* have its exceptional moments.
--Nathan Butler (jkth...@aol.com)
Star Wars Timeline Author
Every legend has its historian . . .
Subscribe to the SWT today.
http://members.xoom.com/nbprod/swtinfo.html
Rich Handley
>Unfortunately, we still wind up with CSW: A Long Time Ago and Vandalhelm
>Mission throwing in old Marvel stories that, in some cases, just don't fit for
>shit in the new "Official Continuity." Take "Tai" in CSW:ALTA #6 for example.
>It happens against the backdrop of the Nagai Invasion . . . which, in Official
>Continuity terms, only appears in that story, and is never referenced ever
>again.
Actually, it is. It's been mentioned in several West End Games books,
which are part of the current continuity. Lucasfilm's stance on
Marvel, as I've learned in the time I've spent writing for WEG, Topps,
and (soon) Dark Horse (more on that at a later date), is that they
don't have a problem with fitting the Marvel tales into current
continuity, so long as it's not done "in your face." In other words,
you can reference the events of the Marvel run, but you can't (thank
God!) do a "Return of Jaxxon" story. We were allowed to reference
Marvel in the Adventure Journal, and Ann Crispin was allowed to work
several Marvel references into her Han Solo books. Also, Crimson
Empire and Boba Fett: Twin Engines of Destruction utilize or refer to
worlds and characters from the Marvel run. In other words, writers
are allowed to consider the Marvel series as part of the continuity...
but more of a background continuity than a foreground continuity. I
know that sounds a little screwy... and I can foresee some eyebrows
raising over this post... but that's how the Marvel series currently
stands.
>You gotta love Dark Horse's selective "Look, that's neato!" way of picking what
>gets reprinted into Officialdom these days.
Actually, it's more of a LFL stance than a Dark Horse stance.
>But, yes, I hearily agree that, as a separate continuity, the Marvel series
>*did* have its exceptional moments.
Agreed -- my personal favorites would be as follow:
1) The Wheel saga
2) The House of Tagge saga
3) One shots -- issues 16, 17, 24, 86, 91, and 103
4) The Tarkin two-parter
5) The Flint two-parter
Sincerely,
Rich Handley (Card...@NO-SPAMunix.asb.com)
GENGHIS12
>know that sounds a little screwy... and I can foresee some eyebrows
>raising over this post... but that's how the Marvel series currently
>stands.
No, not really screwy. Of course West End Games would be the primary defender.
Comic Book situations always seem to go hand-in-hand with RPG situations. The
various people that worked for WEG included many Marvel supporters in their
ranks. The West End Games 2nd Ed. Rulebook Revised & Expanded lists numerous
references to Marvel Comics in the timeline section. Another good one is the
Lahsbees in the supplement Planets of the Galaxy 3 (Later collected in the
Planets Collection).
>In other words,
>you can reference the events of the Marvel run, but you can't (thank
>God!) do a "Return of Jaxxon" story.
There were actually plans in the works to do just that at WEG. Things were
under way to do a "Return of Jaxxon" story which interviewed the irate rabbit.
It seems that in reality, he WAS not the way they portrayed him in the marvel
series, and he was ticked off about it. He was actually, a (DC Comics)
Lobo-esque character, but that Marvel just got it wrong a little bit. Handling
it like this would definitely have worked. However, the problems at WEG kind
of screwed that up.
It's not screwy when you compare the quality of stories of Marvel's versus say
Shadows of the Empire 2 and/or most of Kevin Anderson's comic books and novels.
In a word, it's about time that the Marvel series gets the respect it
deserves. Remember, The Star Wars Holiday Special (or whatever you choose to
call it ;) has already taken its time-earned place in official continuity. The
characters of Chewie's family were mentioned in the Han Solo trilogy, and will
soon be given full references in the upcoming "Chewbaaca" series by Dark Horse
Comics (under the banner of Lucasbooks, I might add). These characters,
"Malla" and "Itchy" will validate the entire Holiday Special, giving Bea Arthur
and Bon Jovi their rightful places in continuity - whether it's liked or not.
--Genghis12
Rich Handley
>There were actually plans in the works to do just that at WEG. Things were
>under way to do a "Return of Jaxxon" story which interviewed the irate rabbit.
>It seems that in reality, he WAS not the way they portrayed him in the marvel
>series, and he was ticked off about it. He was actually, a (DC Comics)
>Lobo-esque character, but that Marvel just got it wrong a little bit. Handling
>it like this would definitely have worked. However, the problems at WEG kind
>of screwed that up.
To tell you the truth, I've always been glad they didn't do that -- I
think it would have messed too deeply with a comic series I have a lot
of fond memories of. It also would have thrown issue 16, one of my
all-time favorites, into the dumper, something I would NOT be happy
about. Valance still stands as my favorite Marvel character, so I'd
prefer to have his trilogy intact.
>Remember, The Star Wars Holiday Special (or whatever you choose to
>call it ;) has already taken its time-earned place in official continuity. The
>characters of Chewie's family were mentioned in the Han Solo trilogy, and will
>soon be given full references in the upcoming "Chewbaaca" series by Dark Horse
>Comics (under the banner of Lucasbooks, I might add). These characters,
>"Malla" and "Itchy" will validate the entire Holiday Special, giving Bea Arthur
>and Bon Jovi their rightful places in continuity - whether it's liked or not.
Actually, the reason LFL includes Chewie's family in the current
continuity is not because of the Holiday Special, but rather because
of The Wookiee Storybook, which told another tale involving them. In
fact, if I'm not mistaken, K-Mac once said he was given a copy of this
book as a reference material when writing the Black Fleet novels. LFL
still considers the Holiday Special crap, but the Wookiee Storybook
(which is a fun read, though a bit silly) is part of continuity. In
other words, the Wookiee Storybook happened, but the Holiday Special
is still out, allowing the Wooks into continuity without having to
redeem the special. :)
Sincerely,
Rich Handley (Card...@NO-SPAMunix.asb.com)
CandyFish
what
>gets reprinted into Officialdom these days.
Actually, it's more of a LFL stance than a Dark Horse stance.
>But, yes, I hearily agree that, as a separate continuity, the Marvel series
>*did* have its exceptional moments.
Agreed -- my personal favorites would be as follow:
1) The Wheel saga
2) The House of Tagge saga
3) One shots -- issues 16, 17, 24, 86, 91, and 103
4) The Tarkin two-parter
5) The Flint two-parter
Sincerely,
Rich Handley (Card...@NO-SPAMunix.asb.com)>>
The Flint two-parter ROCKS!!! (Even with the lame Flint/Barney 'Flintstones'
reference.) The second issue of that two-parter is my favorite of the entire
Marvel run, and that's saying something since I'm a big fan of the pre-Lumiya
Shira Brie, and anything written by David Micheline.
GENGHIS12
>other words, the Wookiee Storybook happened, but the Holiday Special
>is still out, allowing the Wooks into continuity without having to
>redeem the special. :)
Well, since the Star Wars Holiday Special introduced these characters - it had
to have happened for any derivitive works to reference them. In short, that
argument breaks down. While it may be crap (like so many people say that the
novels are) and you can say that you don't like it, or its just a dream
(nightmare?), but it happened in the expanded universe just as much as Kyp
Durron flew a suncrusher (a nightmare) and as much as Jaxxon helped Han and
Chewie on Aduba-8. Think of the Holiday Special as those revealing "tasteful
art nude" photos a young actress may do early on in her career. Later on, they
may cause problems - but it's still as real twenty years later as the day it
was created (albeit on crappy quality VHS bootlegs) no matter how much you want
to cover it up.
--Genghis12
Beyond Hyperspace
http://www.rpghost.com/bhyper
Rich Handley
>Well, since the Star Wars Holiday Special introduced these characters - it had
>to have happened for any derivitive works to reference them.
No, it doesn't. It's easy to say the second happened but the first
did not. If we accept the Holiday Special as having happened, then we
have to believe the denizens of the Mos Eisley Cantina dance around
with the bartender... that Leia likes to sing to Wookiees while stoned
out of her mind... that Wookiees get aroused by boring videos of human
women saying "You're so cute." In short, there's really no way to
make the Holiday Special fit into the SW universe, but that isn't the
case for the Wookiee Storybook.
Sincerely,
Rich Handley (Card...@NO-SPAMunix.asb.com)
David Levy
> No, it doesn't. It's easy to say the second happened but the first
> did not. If we accept the Holiday Special as having happened, then we
> have to believe the denizens of the Mos Eisley Cantina dance around
> with the bartender...
Not too hard to believe - even the roughest scoundrels need to relax
every now and then, and you must admit that Bea Arthur inspires dancing
more readily than those lousy Bith hired hands.
> that Leia likes to sing to Wookiees while stoned
> out of her mind...
Which part here do you find hard to accept? Leia stoned or singing?
I wouldn't even blink an eye at this.
> that Wookiees get aroused by boring videos of human
> women saying "You're so cute." In short, there's really no way to
> make the Holiday Special fit into the SW universe, but that isn't the
> case for the Wookiee Storybook.
Oh, shit, you're right. Wookies don't have VCRs. That totally blows
a hole in the believability of the special for me. Damn it, where
were those continuity experts when this was being made? What are they
going to want us to accept next -- a blood test to determine force
proficiency? Don't these people know anything about the science of
a long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away?
--
It's delightful, it's delicious, it's dlevy!
GENGHIS12
>geng...@aol.com (GENGHIS12) wrote:
>>Well, since the Star Wars Holiday Special introduced these characters - it
>had
>>to have happened for any derivitive works to reference them.
>
>did not.
No. It brings to mind the scene from Back To The Future when he starts
disappearing. If you remeove the characters' origin, they they do not exist.
This is like saying because you "don't like Jedi Academy Trilogy" it never
existed. However, Kyp Durron shows up in a bunch of places since then...Jedi
Academy Leviathan, Vector Prime, etc. He was introduced in Jedi Academy, so it
must exist if you accept that Kyp exists. Same for Holiday Special - it must
exist for you to accept the characters of Malla, Lumpy and Itchy because it
created them.
>If we accept the Holiday Special as having happened, then we
>have to believe the denizens of the Mos Eisley Cantina dance around
>with the bartender...
Not that much of a stretch after a heavy night of lum.
>...that Leia likes to sing to Wookiees while stoned
>out of her mind...
I heard she didn't inhale. She was stoned out of her mind while the Death Star
was stationed in the Leavensdon (sp?) System. (if you believe the
well-substantiated rumors).
>that Wookiees get aroused by boring videos of human
>women saying "You're so cute."
Well, since I don't think any of us are experts on Wookie physiology (well,
except maybe perhaps the only one that's seen one up close and nekked - Chris
Hawkins), I don;t think we're in any position to judge what Wookies find
entertaining. However, if they're anything like me (and I think Chewie can
really relate to me - since we both howl at the moon, and I often get the urge
to rip people's arms out of their sockets and beat them over the head with
them, etc.) then I would say that he would definitely get aroused by videos of
women telling him he's cute.
>In short, there's really no way to
>make the Holiday Special fit into the SW universe, but that isn't the
>case for the Wookiee Storybook.
Well, the same argument can be used for virtually every single Zahn, Anderson,
Hambly, Wolverton, Kube-McDowell, Allen, and Marvel and Dark Horse comic books.
In fact, I do find the whole Holiday Special much more believeable than some
of the novels. And certainly, there's only mildly more venom spewed towards
the Special than most of KJA's novels.
Rich Handley
>> make the Holiday Special fit into the SW universe, but that isn't the
>> case for the Wookiee Storybook.
>a hole in the believability of the special for me.
What??? That's not even related to what I said.
Sincerely,
Rich Handley (Card...@NO-SPAMunix.asb.com)
David Levy
>>> that Wookiees get aroused by boring videos of human
>>> women saying "You're so cute." In short, there's really no way to
>>> make the Holiday Special fit into the SW universe, but that isn't the
>>> case for the Wookiee Storybook.
>>Oh, shit, you're right. Wookies don't have VCRs. That totally blows
>>a hole in the believability of the special for me.
> What??? That's not even related to what I said.
How can Wookies watch boring videos without VCRs?
tayv...@my-deja.com
geng...@aol.com (GENGHIS12) wrote:
> No. It brings to mind the scene from Back To The Future when he
starts
> disappearing. If you remeove the characters' origin, they they do
not exist.
> This is like saying because you "don't like Jedi Academy Trilogy" it
never
> existed. However, Kyp Durron shows up in a bunch of places since
then...Jedi
> Academy Leviathan, Vector Prime, etc. He was introduced in Jedi
Academy, so it
> must exist if you accept that Kyp exists. Same for Holiday Special -
it must
> exist for you to accept the characters of Malla, Lumpy and Itchy
because it
> created them.
Using your logic... because Jimmy Olsen was created for and first
appeared in the radio serials "The Adventures of Superman", the radio
serials are part of Superman's Current Continuity.
Harley Quinn, a character created by Bruce Timm and Paul Dini for the
animated series, now appears in the Batman comics. Does that mean the
animated series counts as part of the Batman comics (besides "Batman:
Gotham Adventures") continuity?
They are not. Sure they are part of the Batman Mythos and the Superman
Mythos, but not the current continuity.
The Holiday special is part of the Star Wars mythos, but it is not part
of the Bantam/Dark Horse current continuity, and is certainly not part
of Lucas' Canon.
Writers of comics and novels borrow from the Mythos all the time, that
doesn't mean everything they borrow from "counts"
> >In short, there's really no way to
> >make the Holiday Special fit into the SW universe, but that isn't the
> >case for the Wookiee Storybook.
> Well, the same argument can be used for virtually every single Zahn,
Anderson,
> Hambly, Wolverton, Kube-McDowell, Allen, and Marvel and Dark Horse
comic books.
> In fact, I do find the whole Holiday Special much more believeable
than some
> of the novels. And certainly, there's only mildly more venom spewed
towards
> the Special than most of KJA's novels.
Sure, but KJA's stuff is part of the Bantam/Dark Horse continuity.
They are not part of the Canon... and if in the future someone makes
the comics and the novels and they edit out KJA's stuff... they edit
them out. But if you are asking what's in an out at this very moment,
I think you should listen to Rich... he has contacts.
GENGHIS12
>Using your logic... because Jimmy Olsen was created for and first
>appeared in the radio serials "The Adventures of Superman", the radio
>serials are part of Superman's Current Continuity.
You should know better than this. For one, Star Wars draws on a the whole
multimedia spectrum to draw its continuity from...Comic Books, Novels,
Novellas, Video Games (Shadows of the Empire), Movies, TV Shows, radio dramas.
For another, "DC and continuity" do not belong in the same sentance. Their
"continuity" if there is such a thing at DC has been rewritten, overwritten,
revised, revamped more times than you can count. Certainly Jonni DC must have
had a nervous breakdown years ago, because I haven't seen her around lately.
But this has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Besides using your own
arguments, all of the main characters were created for a movie, does that mean
just beacuse it is a different media (radio drama, film, TV) that it does not
exist in the current novel continuity - RIDICULOUS!?!
>The Holiday special is part of the Star Wars mythos, but it is not part
>of the Bantam/Dark Horse current continuity, and is certainly not part
>of Lucas' Canon.
Canon has absolutely no relevance to the issue at hand. The Bantam/Dark Horse
current contunuity IS CERTAINLY not part of Lucas' canon, either. There is a
heirarchy of canon. That is, if discrepencies exist between events, the canon
heirarchy ultimately decides what is correct. There is no such thing as a
Lucasfilm Apocryphic Heirarchy. Fans may try and create one to erase things
they don't like, but nothing of the sort exists. So far, nothing has
contradicted the events of the Holiday special.
>Writers of comics and novels borrow from the Mythos all the time, that
>doesn't mean everything they borrow from "counts"
Sure it does, that's why there is a person that approves and checks continuity
for things at Lucasfilm.
>Sure, but KJA's stuff is part of the Bantam/Dark Horse continuity.
And the Holiday Special is part of the ABD continuity. That continuity is part
of the Star Wars Exopanded Universe. That is, it happened - no matter whether
you currently erase it, it still happened. Just as Marvel Comics' events
happened. There is no "time warp" or Crises of Infinite Earths...at least not
yet. The closest we have come is some insidious Sith power that rewrote some
of the events of the movies (Han Solo shooting first, etc.). However, to my
knowledge, nothing has yet contradicted the Holiday Special.
>I think you should listen to Rich... he has contacts.
Well, I wear glasses, so I'd say we're about even.
Rich Handley
>Harley Quinn, a character created by Bruce Timm and Paul Dini for the
>animated series, now appears in the Batman comics. Does that mean the
>animated series counts as part of the Batman comics (besides "Batman:
>Gotham Adventures") continuity?
Excellent points! For that matter, the Batman animated series is a
spinoff of the movies, despite the fact that all of the villains who
died on screen are still alive in the cartoons. Does that mean the
cartoons and movies (and, using the above example, the comics) are all
part of the same universe?
>The Holiday special is part of the Star Wars mythos, but it is not part
>of the Bantam/Dark Horse current continuity, and is certainly not part
>of Lucas' Canon.
Exactly -- even Lucasfilm feels that way.
>Sure, but KJA's stuff is part of the Bantam/Dark Horse continuity.
>They are not part of the Canon... and if in the future someone makes
>the comics and the novels and they edit out KJA's stuff... they edit
>them out. But if you are asking what's in an out at this very moment,
>I think you should listen to Rich... he has contacts.
Well, thanks. :) But I'm not even basing this on my contacts, per
se, but on common sense, as you are.
Sincerely,
Rich Handley (Card...@NO-SPAMunix.asb.com)
GENGHIS12
>spinoff of the movies, despite the fact that all of the villains who
>died on screen are still alive in the cartoons. Does that mean the
>cartoons and movies (and, using the above example, the comics) are all
>part of the same universe?
It all depends on which example you use. I can make the opposite case (one
which supports my idea that they're all part of the "Expanded Universe") using
the Transformers.
The Transformers were originally created as toys. The toy continuity was the
same continuity as the cartoon which appeared shortly after. The cartoon was
the same continuity as the comic book which appeared shortly after that. Both
the comic books and the cartoons were a part of the same continuity as the
Transfmorers movie which appeared a few years later. All of these items form
the basis for the history of the current animal version of the Transformers.
The same can be said of the G.I. Joe toys. The toys formed the basis for the
continuity (characters, vehicles, bases, etc.) This was the same continuity as
the cartoon which appeared shortly after the toys. The cartoon was also the
same continuity as the comic book which appeared even later still. All of
these were a part of the continuity for the G.I. Joe movie which appeared even
later. Through the comic book, the '80's G.I. Joe tied the whole continuity to
the original ('60's larger figure) G.I. Joe through appearances. Later on, the
toys also followed this trend by including both the classic and the new
characters in their collectors lines.
>>The Holiday special is part of the Star Wars mythos, but it is not part
>>of the Bantam/Dark Horse current continuity, and is certainly not part
>>of Lucas' Canon.
>
>Exactly -- even Lucasfilm feels that way.
>
My whole point is not whether the Holiday Special is a part of the Bantam
Continuity - that's irrevelent. However, the Holdiay Special IS part of the
Star Wars Expanded Universe. This universe includes the Star Wars mythos -
comic books (Marvel & Dark Horse), the Role-Playing Game (yes, everyone that's
ever played it includes thier own individual campaigns/games), the computer
games and video games, the T.V. shows. This is not a point for dispute.
>Well, thanks. :) But I'm not even basing this on my contacts, per
>se, but on common sense, as you are.
No, I would say that that the argument that it's not part of the Bantam
continuity is irrelevant, if true. None of the expanded universe items (Bantam
Universe and Holiday Special) are canon, that's not even a point of debate. In
short, these arguments may be based in an uncommon sense, but certainly not
common sense.
tayv...@my-deja.com
geng...@aol.com (GENGHIS12) wrote:
> Tayvanis writes:
> >Using your logic... because Jimmy Olsen was created for and first
> >appeared in the radio serials "The Adventures of Superman", the radio
> >serials are part of Superman's Current Continuity.
> You should know better than this. For one, Star Wars draws on a the
whole
> multimedia spectrum to draw its continuity from...Comic Books, Novels,
> Novellas, Video Games (Shadows of the Empire), Movies, TV Shows,
radio dramas.
So Superman doesn't... it only has Comics Books, Novels, Novells, Video
Games, Movies, TV Shows, radio dramas. Oh, wait... that's the same.
I'd add, for both RPG's and fan-fiction.
All of these add to the Superman Mythos and the Star Wars Mythos.
> For another, "DC and continuity" do not belong in the same sentance.
Their
> "continuity" if there is such a thing at DC has been rewritten,
overwritten,
> revised, revamped more times than you can count.
That's very true... But then covering the entire range of media for 60
years does that to you. DC survived the "death" of Super-Hero comics,
and was part of the rebirth... and during that process things were
lost... added... changed... retconned in and out.
And between the slowing down of Star Wars fandom, and the Dark
Empire/Zahn Trilogy there was a similar "change" of continuity...
Twenty years is a long time, and a "universe" has to grow or die.
> But this has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Besides using
your own
> arguments, all of the main characters were created for a movie, does
that mean
> just beacuse it is a different media (radio drama, film, TV) that it
does not
> exist in the current novel continuity - RIDICULOUS!?!
Depends what the novel/comics continuity "controllers" want.
Star Wars has been blessed by a fairly well handled continuity...
With Star Trek, Novels and Comics ignore each other... and the comics
have moved around so much they ignore each other...
And there is certainly a bit of that with the SW stuff... but the
current SW continuity (attempts) to stay true to canon (which, of
course, is really hard), true to itself (difficult) and draw from
(rather then ignore) the Star Wars Mythos.
> >The Holiday special is part of the Star Wars mythos, but it is not
part
> >of the Bantam/Dark Horse current continuity, and is certainly not
part
> >of Lucas' Canon.
> Canon has absolutely no relevance to the issue at hand.
I disagree, Canon is very important to the subject of continuity... the
Dark Horse/Bantam continuity really has to follow the Star Wars Canon
or it loses all "credibility" If Lucas still oved the Holiday Special,
it's be "Canon"... he doesn't, it isn't.
> The Bantam/Dark Horse
> current contunuity IS CERTAINLY not part of Lucas' canon, either.
Well, duh. Of course it isn't. Neither is the Holiday Special.
> There is a
> heirarchy of canon. That is, if discrepencies exist between events,
the canon
> heirarchy ultimately decides what is correct. There is no such thing
as a
> Lucasfilm Apocryphic Heirarchy.
Oh, isn't there? Then why isn't Lucasfilms releasing the Holiday
Special? It'd sell... So if they still think it "counts" why not
release it?
> Fans may try and create one to erase things
> they don't like, but nothing of the sort exists. So far, nothing has
> contradicted the events of the Holiday special.
True. And nothing has contradicted the Ewok films and cartoons and the
Droids Cartoons... are you saying they still count?
Lucas isn't going to do ep's 7-9, but if he did... do you think that
not contradicting the Holiday Special would be important to him?
> >Writers of comics and novels borrow from the Mythos all the time,
> >that
> >doesn't mean everything they borrow from "counts"
> Sure it does, that's why there is a person that approves and checks
> continuity
> for things at Lucasfilm.
And the main continuity checker wasn't Lucasfilms... it was WEG.
Truely, KJA said in an interview that everything was checked by
Lucasfilms/Bantam/WEG... Lucasfilms would approve and disapprove things
based on content/style etc, but it'd be WEG that would suggest changes
due to the contradiction of previous material.
Lucasfilms doesn't care about continuity as much as you seem to think.
> >Sure, but KJA's stuff is part of the Bantam/Dark Horse continuity.
> And the Holiday Special is part of the ABD continuity. That
continuity is part
> of the Star Wars Exopanded Universe.
I'll admit that I have no idea what the ABD continuity is. If it
includes the Holiday Special more power to it. It has all the internal
validity due to any continuity. Much like the Alan Dean Foster
continuity... which only really includes Star Wars and SOTME.
But we were discussing the Bantam/Dark Horse continuity, which does not
include the Holiday Special, but draws from it.
The "Expanded Universe" includes Design-material... I hardly think that
the EU has any internal consistancy... it's more a collection of Star
Wars Mythos material than a continuity.
> That is, it happened - no matter whether
> you currently erase it, it still happened. Just as Marvel Comics'
> events
> happened. There is no "time warp" or Crises of Infinite Earths...at
> least not
> yet. The closest we have come is some insidious Sith power that
> rewrote some
> of the events of the movies (Han Solo shooting first, etc.).
> However, to my
> knowledge, nothing has yet contradicted the Holiday Special.
There has been no "rewrites" except those that Lucas himself did in the
Special Editions? Do you know how stupid you sound? Use some logic.
GENGHIS12
> geng...@aol.com (GENGHIS12) wrote:
>> For another, "DC and continuity" do not belong in the same sentance.
>Their
>> "continuity" if there is such a thing at DC has been rewritten,
>overwritten,
>> revised, revamped more times than you can count.
>
>That's very true... But then covering the entire range of media for 60
>years does that to you. DC survived the "death" of Super-Hero comics,
>and was part of the rebirth... and during that process things were
>lost... added... changed... retconned in and out.
>And between the slowing down of Star Wars fandom, and the Dark
>Empire/Zahn Trilogy there was a similar "change" of continuity...
That's the whole point. NO, there was not any change in continuity. The
pre-Zahn Expanded Universe is just as much a part of the Expanded Universe
today as it was before. WEG has brought in numerous pre-Zahn continuity items
(Marvel Comics, etc.). Chewie's family, introduced in the Holiday Special have
been in numerous post-Zahn items as well. Your argument breaks down because of
this (however, more on it later, when you reference WEG).
>Twenty years is a long time, and a "universe" has to grow or die.
No, the marketing of said universe just has to stay abreast of its audience.
>> But this has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Besides using
>your own
>> arguments, all of the main characters were created for a movie, does
>that mean
>> just beacuse it is a different media (radio drama, film, TV) that it
>does not
>> exist in the current novel continuity - RIDICULOUS!?!
>
>Depends what the novel/comics continuity "controllers" want.
And with Star Wars, they have stated time and time again that the various
multimedia items (T.V. shows, video games, computer games, novellas, novels,
comic books, etc.) ARE all a part of the Star Wars Expanded Unvierse, but not
necessarily a part of the movie continuity.
>Star Wars has been blessed by a fairly well handled continuity...
I agree.
>With Star Trek, Novels and Comics ignore each other... and the comics
>have moved around so much they ignore each other...
However, the topic at hand is Star Wars, and each of the various items (video
games - yes video games for crying out loud, comic books, etc.) are as much a
part of each other as other same-media items. That is, the Tales of the Jedi
comic books are at the same continuity level as Jedi Academy Trilogy novels, as
the same level as WEG RPG books, as yes, the same level as Holiday Special.
>And there is certainly a bit of that with the SW stuff... but the
>current SW continuity (attempts) to stay true to canon (which, of
>course, is really hard), true to itself (difficult) and draw from
>(rather then ignore) the Star Wars Mythos.
There is no current continuity or past continuity. There is the Expanded
Universe which encompasses all characters bog and small, RPG or CG, comic or
novel, TV or radio.
>> >The Holiday special is part of the Star Wars mythos, but it is not
>part
>> >of the Bantam/Dark Horse current continuity, and is certainly not
>part
>> >of Lucas' Canon.
>> Canon has absolutely no relevance to the issue at hand.
>
>I disagree, Canon is very important to the subject of continuity... the
>Dark Horse/Bantam continuity really has to follow the Star Wars Canon
>or it loses all "credibility" If Lucas still oved the Holiday Special,
>it's be "Canon"... he doesn't, it isn't.
NO. Let me try and be clear - Only the movies, movie novelizations, movie
screenplays, and radio drams ARE cannon. Everything else IS NOT. Everything
else is apocrypha. That is, the "bantam continuity" IS NOT canon. The Holiday
Special IS NOT canon. Now, when dealing with the Expanded Universe, "canon"
has absolutely no relevence.
>> The Bantam/Dark Horse
>> current contunuity IS CERTAINLY not part of Lucas' canon, either.
>
>Well, duh. Of course it isn't. Neither is the Holiday Special.
But...but...you just said that you thought the Bantam continuity follows canon.
Now, do you understand - canon has no relevence to the expanded universe.
>> There is a
>> heirarchy of canon. That is, if discrepencies exist between events,
>the canon
>> heirarchy ultimately decides what is correct. There is no such thing
>as a
>> Lucasfilm Apocryphic Heirarchy.
>
>Oh, isn't there? Then why isn't Lucasfilms releasing the Holiday
>Special? It'd sell... So if they still think it "counts" why not
>release it?
Because, having something sell is not the same the same as having a quality
product. Lucas seems genuinly interested in the quality of his and his
derivative works. It's all pretty much agreed that the Holiday Special is
crap. But, we cannot use that to form the basis of what is part of the
Expanded Universe, otherwise Bantam would not be a part of it as well (or at
least the KJA novels). The quality of the bantam novels has generally been
given as "mediocre" as a whole. Certain parts of it have been reviewed as
possibly crappier than the Holiday Special. Same thing with Marvel Comics
series and a lot of other EU items. However, quality is not a part of the
determination - as is why Jedi Academy is part of the EU as is the Holiday
Special whether we like it or not.
>> Fans may try and create one to erase things
>> they don't like, but nothing of the sort exists. So far, nothing has
>> contradicted the events of the Holiday special.
>True. And nothing has contradicted the Ewok films and cartoons and the
>Droids Cartoons... are you saying they still count?
YES. They are all a part of the Expanded Universe. That's the reason the
expanded universe exists, so that people can explore whether or not R5-D4 was a
Jedi or not (Star Wars Tales #1) or other "interesting things" like the Holiday
Special.
>Lucas isn't going to do ep's 7-9, but if he did... do you think that
>not contradicting the Holiday Special would be important to him?
No, he has stated that the Expanded Universe is "not important to him" (that
is, he is free to overwrite anything in the Expanded Universe with his movies).
As a part of the expanded universe, the Holiday Special doesn't receive any
more or less consideration than say, Bantam novels.
>> >Writers of comics and novels borrow from the Mythos all the time,
>> >that
>> >doesn't mean everything they borrow from "counts"
>> Sure it does, that's why there is a person that approves and checks
>> continuity
>> for things at Lucasfilm.
>
>And the main continuity checker wasn't Lucasfilms... it was WEG.
>Truely, KJA said in an interview that everything was checked by
>Lucasfilms/Bantam/WEG... Lucasfilms would approve and disapprove things
>based on content/style etc, but it'd be WEG that would suggest changes
>due to the contradiction of previous material.
Mainly their material. That's why we have references to Ackbar developing the
B-Wing, something which was a RPG creation. Now, WEG has tapped into what you
call "pre-Zahn" continuity by way of making the Marvel Comics' series a part of
your continuity. This bridge has been crossed, so according to you, the
Pre-Zahn and Post-Zahn continuities have merged. However, I don't subscribe to
that - the pre-Zahn EU has always and will forever be a part of the EU.
>Lucasfilms doesn't care about continuity as much as you seem to think.
>> >Sure, but KJA's stuff is part of the Bantam/Dark Horse continuity.
>
>> And the Holiday Special is part of the ABD continuity. That
That should've been ABC...mistype.
However, all of these continuities are on equal ground in the Expanded
Universe.
>Much like the Alan Dean Foster
>continuity... which only really includes Star Wars and SOTME.
But, it happened in the expanded universe.
>But we were discussing the Bantam/Dark Horse continuity, which does not
>include the Holiday Special, but draws from it.
NO - we weren't. WE WERE discussing the Star Wars Expanded Universe, of which
the Holiday Special is a part of. You were the one that first mentioned
"Bantam Continuity".
> happened. There is no "time warp" or Crises of Infinite Earths...at
>> least not
>> yet. The closest we have come is some insidious Sith power that
>> rewrote some
>> of the events of the movies (Han Solo shooting first, etc.).
>> However, to my
>> knowledge, nothing has yet contradicted the Holiday Special.
>
>There has been no "rewrites" except those that Lucas himself did in the
>Special Editions? Do you know how stupid you sound? Use some logic.
It seems that I've been the only one using some logic. Let me ask you a
question - Who shot first, Han or Greedo? It's a simple question, and I would
expect a one-word answer, so was it Han or Greedo? The thing is, the Special
Editions did not rewrite the classic movies. They are different - they are
Special Editions of the movies. However, because we're dealing with
continuity, from the perspective of the Star Wars galaxy, how do you propose
that events have been altered? The anti-monitor? Please, you should have some
idea of what canon and continuity mean in the expanded universe before you
start making yourself look foolish.
GENGHIS12
ma...@kos.net writes:
>I agree with Rich Handley...
>Like it or not, unless you want to limit
> yourself to the minute chunk of the
>story revealed in the movies, you have to
> accept everything as part of the
>continuity (until directly contradicted by
>Lord Lucas). Think of real life.
>Have you ever screwed up badly? Had a
> day when you seem to be living in a
>Salvador Dali painting? Just because you
> didn't like it doesn't mean you can
>deny it happened (unless you're very rich
Clear yet?
tayv...@my-deja.com
> That's the whole point. NO, there was not any change in continuity.
> The
> pre-Zahn Expanded Universe is just as much a part of the Expanded
> Universe
> today as it was before.
You use the words "Expanded Universe" and I use "Star Wars Mythos"
The Holiday special is part of the EU, as is the PZM (Post-Zahn
Material)... however, the HS is not part of the PZUniverse
or "Bantam/DH/WEG Universe/Continuity" which includes all PZM, all the
Canon material, and selected "Pre-Zahn Material"
The Expanded Universe and the word "Continuity" are mutually exclusive.
> WEG has brought in numerous pre-Zahn
> continuity items
> (Marvel Comics, etc.). Chewie's family, introduced in the Holiday
>Special have
> been in numerous post-Zahn items as well. Your argument breaks down
because of
> this (however, more on it later, when you reference WEG).
Yes, they also appear in the Marvel comics looking completely un-HS-
like. Continuity Changes. The Mythos grows.
Real people appear as themselves in Sit-Coms... it doesn't make the Sit-
Com part of the real world.
> >Depends what the novel/comics continuity "controllers" want.
> And with Star Wars, they have stated time and time again that the
various
> multimedia items (T.V. shows, video games, computer games, novellas,
novels,
> comic books, etc.) ARE all a part of the Star Wars Expanded Unvierse,
but not
> necessarily a part of the movie continuity.
Yeap. Everything is part of the EU... (all the stuff that "expanded"
from the movies) that doesn't make everything part of the Post-Zahn
Continuity.
> >With Star Trek, Novels and Comics ignore each other... and the comics
> >have moved around so much they ignore each other...
> However, the topic at hand is Star Wars, and each of the various
items (video
> games - yes video games for crying out loud, comic books, etc.) are
as much a
> part of each other as other same-media items. That is, the Tales of
the Jedi
> comic books are at the same continuity level as Jedi Academy Trilogy
novels, as
> the same level as WEG RPG books, as yes, the same level as Holiday
Special.
No... All of these are part of the Expanded Universe, some are part of
the B/DH/WEG continuity, and only the movies (and adaptions) are Canon.
Now, you can argue that the "current continuity" has a higher, lower or
equal standing to any of the other stuff, but in counting towards the
Bantam/Dark Horse books, as it has been stated over and over, the
Holiday Special, while being the inspiration for various characters,
does not count as part of the B/DH cont...
> >And there is certainly a bit of that with the SW stuff... but the
> >current SW continuity (attempts) to stay true to canon (which, of
> >course, is really hard), true to itself (difficult) and draw from
> >(rather then ignore) the Star Wars Mythos.
> There is no current continuity or past continuity. There is the
Expanded
> Universe which encompasses all characters bog and small, RPG or CG,
comic or
> novel, TV or radio.
There is the Expanded Universe... that includes everything... there is
Canon which includes very specific things (and even some of those don't
completely count ("errors" in ANH novel, for example)) and there are a
number of "continuities", one of which, which I have been calling the
current, and I'll admit that it's 100% accurate, or the Post-Zahn...
still not quite right... and the Bantam/Dark Horse/WEG (once again not
the full story)... This continuity follows canon (has to include all
canon material) and includes other stuff... sometimes it includes
things drawn from things that it doesn't "count"
> >> Canon has absolutely no relevance to the issue at hand.
> >I disagree, Canon is very important to the subject of continuity...
the
> >Dark Horse/Bantam continuity really has to follow the Star Wars Canon
> >or it loses all "credibility
> NO. Let me try and be clear - Only the movies, movie novelizations,
>movie
> screenplays, and radio drams ARE cannon. Everything else IS NOT.
>Everything
> else is apocrypha.
OK, READ what I wrote. I didn't write "The Bantam Continuity is Canon"
I wrote it "follows Canon" or to say another way "includes Canon as
part of it's history"
> That is, the "bantam continuity" IS NOT canon. The Holiday
> Special IS NOT canon.
Well, Duh.
> Now, when dealing with the Expanded
> Universe, "canon"
> has absolutely no relevence.
It does to the discussion of "levels of Continuity"
> >> The Bantam/Dark Horse
> >> current contunuity IS CERTAINLY not part of Lucas' canon, either.
> >Well, duh. Of course it isn't. Neither is the Holiday Special.
> But...but...you just said that you thought the Bantam continuity
> follows canon.
Exactly. Not "is part of", "follows" learn to comprehend what you read.
> Now, do you understand - canon has no relevence to the expanded
> universe.
Actually, the EU is all of the Mythos that is not Canon, and as such
the definition of what is Canon is part of the definition of what is
part of the Expanded Universe.
> >> There is a
> >> heirarchy of canon. That is, if discrepencies exist between
> >>events,
> >the canon
> >> heirarchy ultimately decides what is correct. There is no such
> >>thing
> >as a
> >> Lucasfilm Apocryphic Heirarchy.
There are levels of Canon... basically two: _The Special Edition of
the Movies (if there is a SE)_ and _The previous versions of the
Movies, the scripts/adaptions (where they don't contradict the "top
level" canon_
Beyond that there is no real canon. There is a continuiy that all of
the currently released non-canon material has to fit. That is
determined by Bantam/Dark Horse... and doesn't include certain
things... like the Holiday Special.
> The quality of the bantam novels has >generally been
> given as "mediocre" as a whole. Certain parts of it have been
reviewed as
> possibly crappier than the Holiday Special. Same thing with Marvel
Comics
> series and a lot of other EU items. However, quality is not a part
of the
> determination - as is why Jedi Academy is part of the EU as is the
Holiday
> Special whether we like it or not.
Agreed. However, just because HS characters are refered to in
Bantam/DH material, doesn't make the HS part of that material.
> >> >Writers of comics and novels borrow from the Mythos all the time,
> >> >that
> >> >doesn't mean everything they borrow from "counts"
> >> Sure it does, that's why there is a person that approves and checks
> >> continuity
> >> for things at Lucasfilm.
> >And the main continuity checker wasn't Lucasfilms... it was WEG.
> >Truely, KJA said in an interview that everything was checked by
> >Lucasfilms/Bantam/WEG... Lucasfilms would approve and disapprove
things
> >based on content/style etc, but it'd be WEG that would suggest
changes
> >due to the contradiction of previous material.
> Mainly their material.
True... but they spent some time researching the material for
Sourcebooks and the like, so that had access to the "continunity map"
so to speak... of course they were the continuity checkers. Lucasfilm
doesn't really care...
> Now, WEG has tapped into > what you
> call "pre-Zahn" continuity by way of making the Marvel Comics' series
> a part of
> your continuity.
There is no single "Pre-Zahn Continuity" and I never refered to one.
There were a lot of mini-continuities...
But no attempt to merge these things into something coherent. What
the "current" continuity has done is included all the "post-Zahn"
material, and based on the WEG-contiuity included chunks of the Pre-
Zahn stuff "SOTME", The Solo, and Lando Trilogies, and draws characters
from other material, without actually including all of that material
(such as The Holiday Special, and the Marvel Comics)
> This bridge has been crossed, so according to you, the
> Pre-Zahn and Post-Zahn continuities have merged.
No they haven't.
> However, I don't subscribe to
> that - the pre-Zahn EU has always and will forever be a part of the
> EU.
Well, Duh. So are Ralph Mac's drawings. Just because there is a Chick-
Robot-From-Metropolis-looking drawing of 3PO, doesn't mean that 3PO
once looked like that, just the same as the fact the the Holiday
Special names of Chewy's family being used in current material mean
that that material counts the Holiday Special as part of it's
continuity.
> >> >Sure, but KJA's stuff is part of the Bantam/Dark Horse continuity.
> >> And the Holiday Special is part of the ABD continuity. That
> That should've been ABC...mistype.
> However, all of these continuities are on equal ground in the Expanded
> Universe.
I'm assuming that all the TV-stuff appeared on the AmericanBC then?
OK, fine, the Holiday Special is part of the TV-Continuity. Which is
part of the Expanded Universe. The TV-Continuity is not part of the
Bantam Continuity which is also part of the expanded Universe.
> >Much like the Alan Dean Foster
> >continuity... which only really includes Star Wars and SOTME.
> But, it happened in the expanded universe.
Yes, and to a certain degree, the Bantam Continuity. Does it fit into
the TV-Continuity? Interesting question... but that's another thread.
> >But we were discussing the Bantam/Dark Horse continuity, which does
> >not
> >include the Holiday Special, but draws from it.
> NO - we weren't. WE WERE discussing the Star Wars Expanded Universe,
> of which
> the Holiday Special is a part of. You were the one that first
> mentioned
> "Bantam Continuity".
Excuse me... but did you meantion what counted as part of the (current)
novel continuity or not? If you did you are talking about the Bantam
Continuity. Does all EU stuff exist in the BC? No. Does references
to other EU stuff in the BC means they happened in the BC? No, as the
BC has been defined as NOT including them, and references refer to
similar events and characters. When they talk about Jabba in the books
do you immediately think of the Blue-Guy from the Marvel Pre-Jedi stuff?
> >There has been no "rewrites" except those that Lucas himself did in
the
> >Special Editions? Do you know how stupid you sound? Use some logic.
> It seems that I've been the only one using some logic. Let me ask
you a
> question - Who shot first, Han or Greedo? It's a simple question,
and I would
> expect a one-word answer, so was it Han or Greedo?
Greedo. If you go by Canon. You can answer either from the Mythos.
> The thing is, the Special
> Editions did not rewrite the classic movies. They are different -
they are
> Special Editions of the movies. However, because we're dealing with
> continuity, from the perspective of the Star Wars galaxy, how do you
propose
> that events have been altered? The anti-monitor?
The events haven't been altered. The Canon has changed. That means
that the Canon says Greedo shot first. The "Original Versions
Continuity" means that Han shot first. I don't believe there needs to
be an explaination for it. If you do, deal with it yourself.
> Please, you should have some
> idea of what canon and continuity mean in the expanded universe
before you
> start making yourself look foolish.
I know what Canon is. I know what continuity means. I know what the
Bantam/Dark Horse define as their *C*ontinuity. And I'm saying that
the Holiday Special is not part of it. Say otherwise.
GENGHIS12
> geng...@aol.com (GENGHIS12) wrote:
>> Tay writes again:
>> > geng...@aol.com (GENGHIS12) wrote:
>
>> That's the whole point. NO, there was not any change in continuity.
>> The
>> pre-Zahn Expanded Universe is just as much a part of the Expanded
>> Universe
>> today as it was before.
>
>You use the words "Expanded Universe" and I use "Star Wars Mythos"
No, not just I. The term, "Expanded Universe" is an official classification
used by Lucasfilm to classify Star Wars fiction (not just novels, mind you, but
*ANY* fiction whether it be comic books, novellas, children's books, video
games, computer games, role-playing games,TV shows, radio shows,
tape-adaptations of novels, tape-adaptations of comic books). Your term "Star
Wars Mythos" is nothing more than an attempt to make whole the individual parts
of the picture. The difference, I am following a Lucasfilm classification,
whereas you pulled something from your Spice Mines of Kessel.
>The Holiday special is part of the EU, as is the PZM (Post-Zahn
>Material)... however, the HS is not part of the PZUniverse
>or "Bantam/DH/WEG Universe/Continuity" which includes all PZM, all the
>Canon material, and selected "Pre-Zahn Material"
I could care less if the HS is a part of certain sub-universes (E-Space?). The
Holiday Special IS a part of the Star Wars Expanded Universe. The Bantam
novels ARE a part of the Star Wars Expanded Universe. The Expanded Universe
encompasses every fictional event that has happened in the Star Wars universe
that is not classified as canon. This even includes each person's individual
experiences with helping Dash Rendar shoot down Xixor's Skyhook and fighting
IG-88 and Boba Fett in the Shadows of the Empire video game. Yes, that's
right, it is official that the GAME was a part of the (using your terms)
"Shadows of the Empire Continuity". This "Shadows of the Empire Continuity" is
the same continuity with every other expanded universe item.
Another example, each individuals' experiences with the Star Wars RPG is a part
of the Star Wars Expanded Universe (Huke Skydasher, Brash Pilot saves the
galaxy...). This (again using your terminology) "Star Wars Role-Playing Game
Continuity" is simply another part of the Expanded Universe which includes
events which you don't know about (or may NEVER know about due to each GM's
personal RPG games).
All of these events "happened" - in the Star Wars Expanded Universe
.
>The Expanded Universe and the word "Continuity" are mutually exclusive.
No, there have been attempts at continuity in the Expanded Universe, however,
due to fine, upstanding people at WEG, this keeps being thrown about. The only
thing George Lucas hates more than anything in ANY galaxy (including the
Holiday Special) is Jaxxon, the lovable green-skinned bunny from the early
adventures of Marvel Comics. However, thanks to WEG, even Jaxxon is a part of
your precious "Bantam Continuity" by way of WEG. But that's all a moot point,
because they including HS) are all a part of the (again, using your terms)
"Expanded Universe Continuity".
>> WEG has brought in numerous pre-Zahn
>> continuity items
>> (Marvel Comics, etc.). Chewie's family, introduced in the Holiday
>>Special have
>> been in numerous post-Zahn items as well. Your argument breaks down
>because of
>> this (however, more on it later, when you reference WEG).
>Yes, they also appear in the Marvel comics looking completely un-HS-
>like. Continuity Changes. The Mythos grows.
>
>Real people appear as themselves in Sit-Coms... it doesn't make the Sit-
>Com part of the real world.
>
>> >Depends what the novel/comics continuity "controllers" want.
>
>> And with Star Wars, they have stated time and time again that the
>various
>> multimedia items (T.V. shows, video games, computer games, novellas,
>novels,
>> comic books, etc.) ARE all a part of the Star Wars Expanded Unvierse,
>but not
>> necessarily a part of the movie continuity.
>
>Yeap. Everything is part of the EU... (all the stuff that "expanded"
>from the movies)
>
>> >With Star Trek, Novels and Comics ignore each other... and the comics
>> >have moved around so much they ignore each other...
>
>> However, the topic at hand is Star Wars, and each of the various
>items (video
>> games - yes video games for crying out loud, comic books, etc.) are
>as much a
>> part of each other as other same-media items. That is, the Tales of
>the Jedi
>> comic books are at the same continuity level as Jedi Academy Trilogy
>novels, as
>> the same level as WEG RPG books, as yes, the same level as Holiday
>Special.
>
>No... All of these are part of the Expanded Universe, some are part of
>the B/DH/WEG continuity, and only the movies (and adaptions) are Canon.
>Now, you can argue that the "current continuity" has a higher, lower or
>equal standing to any of the other stuff, but in counting towards the
>Bantam/Dark Horse books, as it has been stated over and over, the
>Holiday Special, while being the inspiration for various characters,
>does not count as part of the B/DH cont...
However, it all fits nicely together in the Expanded Universe Continuity which
lords over all of your attempts to sub-classify things.
>
>> >And there is certainly a bit of that with the SW stuff... but the
>> >current SW continuity (attempts) to stay true to canon (which, of
>> >course, is really hard), true to itself (difficult) and draw from
>> >(rather then ignore) the Star Wars Mythos.
>
>> There is no current continuity or past continuity. There is the
>Expanded
>> Universe which encompasses all characters bog and small, RPG or CG,
>comic or
>> novel, TV or radio.
>
>There is the Expanded Universe... that includes everything...
No, the Expanded Universe does not specifically include ANY canon items. It
connects to them like rooms in a house. That is, under the Star Wars Galaxy,
we have the (warning - all my terms here) "canon room" which included the
movies, movie novellizations, movie screenplays and movie radio dramas and the
"non-canon room". The "Expanded Universe" room is only reachable through the
"Non-Canon" entrance. This room includes all things we have been discussing,
including the Holiday Special. The HS is a part of the whole continuity
because we have Malla and Itchy waxing about Chewie's life and times after his
death. This was made possible by the Holiday Special introducing these
important characters. Many years prior to talking about Chewie's life (that
is, this event occurs +25 ANH in DHC's "upcoming "Chewbaaca" series", they all
watched, as Rich Handley put it, "video tapes of earth girls telling them how
cute they looked". However, that can be excused, because at the time, Kashyyk
was undergoing a Seventies Plague of which affected both Itchy and Malla and
even Lumpy, Chewie's son.
>and there are a
>number of "continuities", one of which, which I have been calling the
>current, and I'll admit that it's
[ed. note - Tayvanis forgot this word] NOT
> 100% accurate, or the Post-Zahn...
>still not quite right... and the Bantam/Dark Horse/WEG (once again not
>the full story)... This continuity follows canon (has to include all
>canon material) and includes other stuff...
Sure, the events of the Holiday Special certainly followed the events of the
first movie and led up to the events of the second by even introducing a
character, Boba Fett, who has gone on to play an extremely large part in both
canon and non-canon Star Wars stories. Nothing in it contradicts established
canon or even non-canon for that matter.
>> >> Canon has absolutely no relevance to the issue at hand.
>> >I disagree, Canon is very important to the subject of continuity...
>the
>> >Dark Horse/Bantam continuity really has to follow the Star Wars Canon
>> >or it loses all "credibility
>
>> NO. Let me try and be clear - Only the movies, movie novelizations,
>>movie
>> screenplays, and radio drams ARE cannon. Everything else IS NOT.
>>Everything
>> else is apocrypha.
>
>OK, READ what I wrote. I didn't write "The Bantam Continuity is Canon"
>I wrote it "follows Canon" or to say another way "includes Canon as
>part of it's history"
Well, that covers the Holiday Special as well. The Holiday Special "INCLUDES
CANON AS PART OF ITS HISTORY TOO." Namely, the Holiday special includes the
first movie (along with ANH novelization, ANH radio drama and ANH screenplay)
as part of its history, becuase that's the only part of canon history that was
available. In fact, it has a special place in setting up ESB canon history by
introducing a main "bad guy" character.
>> That is, the "bantam continuity" IS NOT canon. The Holiday
>> Special IS NOT canon.
>
>Well, Duh.
>
>> Now, when dealing with the Expanded
>> Universe, "canon"
>> has absolutely no relevence.
>
>It does to the discussion of "levels of Continuity"
I'm talking about the highest level of non-canon continuity, the Expanded
Universe Continuity which covers all Star Wars fiction events not covered by
canon.
>
>> Now, do you understand - canon has no relevence to the expanded
>> universe.
>
>Actually, the EU is all of the Mythos that is not Canon, and as such
>the definition of what is Canon is part of the definition of what is
>part of the Expanded Universe.
No, the expanded universe umbrella does not cover the canon events, it exists
alongside of it.
>> >> There is a
>> >> heirarchy of canon. That is, if discrepencies exist between
>> >>events,
>> >the canon
>> >> heirarchy ultimately decides what is correct. There is no such
>> >>thing
>> >as a
>> >> Lucasfilm Apocryphic Heirarchy.
>
>There are levels of Canon... basically two: _The Special Edition of
>the Movies (if there is a SE)_ and _The previous versions of the
>Movies, the scripts/adaptions (where they don't contradict the "top
>level" canon_
NO. Now I can see why you are having such a problem, you really are just going
off of your own ideas and nothing really official. George Lucas, himself, said
that there are FOUR levels of canon (listed in decreasing canonical? power):
1. The movies themselves
2. The movie screenplays
3. The movie novelizations
4. The radio dramas
I must say, that I may have mixed up the last three slightly, as this is taken
from memory and I cannot remember if this is correct. Perhaps Mr. Handley can
shed some light?
>
>Beyond that there is no real canon. There is a continuiy that all of
>the currently released non-canon material has to fit. That is
>determined by Bantam/Dark Horse... and doesn't include certain
>things... like the Holiday Special.
Wrong. Continuity does not cover "current" releases. That is, because Vector
Prime was released a few weeks ago, does not make it "past continuity." Once
released, a Star Wars release becomes a part of the expanded universe
continuity, plain and simple.
>> The quality of the bantam novels has >generally been
>> given as "mediocre" as a whole. Certain parts of it have been
>reviewed as
>> possibly crappier than the Holiday Special. Same thing with Marvel
>Comics
>> series and a lot of other EU items. However, quality is not a part
>of the
>> determination - as is why Jedi Academy is part of the EU as is the
>Holiday
>> Special whether we like it or not.
>
>Agreed. However, just because HS characters are refered to in
>Bantam/DH material, doesn't make the HS part of that material.
?!? Yes, it does. The characters referred to by the material would not exist
save for the HS.
>> >> >Writers of comics and novels borrow from the Mythos all the time,
>> >> >that
>> >> >doesn't mean everything they borrow from "counts"
>> >> Sure it does, that's why there is a person that approves and checks
>> >> continuity
>> >> for things at Lucasfilm.
>> >And the main continuity checker wasn't Lucasfilms... it was WEG.
>> >Truely, KJA said in an interview that everything was checked by
>> >Lucasfilms/Bantam/WEG... Lucasfilms would approve and disapprove
>things
>> >based on content/style etc, but it'd be WEG that would suggest
>changes
>> >due to the contradiction of previous material.
>> Mainly their material.
>
>True... but they spent some time researching the material for
>Sourcebooks and the like, so that had access to the "continunity map"
>so to speak... of course they were the continuity checkers. Lucasfilm
>doesn't really care...
Actually, one correction to this, Lucy Autrey at Lucasfilm was the one in
charge of approvals, I believe.
>
>> Now, WEG has tapped into > what you
>> call "pre-Zahn" continuity by way of making the Marvel Comics' series
>> a part of
>> your continuity.
>
>There is no single "Pre-Zahn Continuity" and I never refered to one.
>There were a lot of mini-continuities...
I shall make a clone of the Star Wars continuity at 1/8 scale. I shall call
it...
MINI-CONTINUITY!
>> This bridge has been crossed, so according to you, the
>> Pre-Zahn and Post-Zahn continuities have merged.
>
>No they haven't.
>
>> However, I don't subscribe to
>> that - the pre-Zahn EU has always and will forever be a part of the
>> EU.
>
>Well, Duh. So are Ralph Mac's drawings. Just because there is a Chick-
>Robot-From-Metropolis-looking drawing of 3PO, doesn't mean that 3PO
>once looked like that, just the same as the fact the the Holiday
>Special names of Chewy's family being used in current material mean
>that that material counts the Holiday Special as part of it's
>continuity.
NO - It's not just names. These are characters that have histories..stories
other than what we see in the movies. (I know we don't see Malla or Itchcy, but
we see someone closely related to them in the movies). The HS did NOT just
list names, it set in the Star Wars Expanded Universe "continuity" that "Itchy"
shall be a Wookie. This Wookie shall be Chewbaaca's father. We see him talk
and even help celebrate a Wookie holiday. The Holiday Special set in the Star
Wars Expanded Universe Continuity that "Malla" shall be a Wookie. This Wookie
shall be a female Wookie. She shall be Chewbaaca's wife. Everything that has
referenced these characters also ties to the Holiday Special "continuity",
therefore making it a part of its own. That's the whole purpose of the
Expanded Universe - to tell these stories (no matter how unbelieveable) without
screwing up the main one (the movies) that Lucas wished to tell. And that's
the whole reason why your Dr. Evil Mini-Continuities are irrelevent in the
Expanded Universe.