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From: Lorin Kusmin <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: jay makes a good point
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 18 Mar 1992 21:53:00 EST from <199561011@VUVAXCOM>
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On Wed, 18 Mar 1992 21:53:00 EST Deterritorializing Agent said:
>jay asked a good question.
>everyone has been complaining about ozone depletion,
>and i agree that the time to stop putting cfcs in the system is
>long past gone,
>BUT...
>has anyone heard of any efforts to RESTORE the ozone?
>i mean, technology has its good points too, doesn't it?
>why aren't people researching ways of producing ozone in the places
>where it is needed?
>why did it take jay to suggest it?
>are all us "liberal commie types" really that dense?
>
>brni
I've seen a couple of news articles about active technological fixes that
might be used to counter big environmental problems like ozone depletion,
global warming, etc. Newsweek did a piece on this theme a few months ago,
I remember. The tone of the piece was "aren't these wild, wacky ideas" but
they didn't offer compelling reason to scoff. I don't recall if they
included an idea similar to Jay's - ozone-generating airplanes flying around
at high altitudes - but they did mention a proposal to use lasers on
mountaintops to somehow "zap" CFCs in a fashion that would render them less
harmful.
All of this is somewhat outside of my realm of expertise (if I have any :-))
but I do have two thoughts:
Jay's suggestion might be difficult to implement since the "missing" ozone
is in the stratosphere, and it's difficult-to-impossible to get
a large air-breathing vehicle up that high (on the other hand, maybe some
extra ozone in the upper troposphere would do just as much good???);
In general, we need to beware of unintended consequences. If we make a
mess, and then clean it up, the clean-up process may have other adverse
effects (e.g. burning garbage so it doesn't pile up in a landfill...or
"she swallowed the spider to catch the fly" and we all know what that led
to...) Any guesses about what other pollutants hundreds of high-flying planes
might spew out, and what effects they'd have that we'd discover in 10 or 20
years? Most often, I think we're better off going to some trouble not
to make the mess in the first place.
Having said that, I don't think it's silly to consider such ideas, especially
to address damage that we've already done, or to counter damage that's out
of our control (e.g., if China, Brazil, and India all insisted on large scale
production of CFCs).
Lorin
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From: KAT <MEC038%edu.UK...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: why to vote for Brown
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 20 Mar 1992 15:28:00 EST from <GU091GXR@ITHACA>
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> 2. He's not Clinton.
> Can anyone really imagine Clinton a
> s President? Besides, the scandals will blow wide open once
> he's running directly against Bush. Who wants a preesident
> with little respect for women (evidenced by affairs) and
> all sorts of shady deals coming up every few days? .......
> --G. Racz
Oh, come on! He doesn't respect women because he ALLEGEDLY had
an affair? I admit this in not as off base as Jay saying Dahmer
is a role model for gays but you are getting close.
Using this type of careless logic, I can say he has more respect
for women because he is paying attention to two women rather than
the usual one. :-)
But seriously having one affair is not indication of disrespect for
women in general. You might say it is disrespect for his wife, or
that Clinton is not faithful to his word (vows). Even that is between
the man and the wife and the wife in this case is not complaining.
By no means am I saying that the alleged affair is not damaging
to Clinton, but please call it what it is and don't sensationalize it
by rhetoric such as he does not respect women.
--KAT
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From: Tim Johnson <PH408014%bitnet....@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Ozone layer
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
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>Good point, Tim. But that still leaves open the broader issue of
>whether it makes sense to intervene actively in the environment to
>compensate for damage we've done - e.g., using lasers to "zap" CFCs
>(no, I don't know what they turn into when zapped) or floating white
>styrofoam pellets on a large chunk of ocean to reflect sunlight back
>into space to reduce global warming (no, it doesn't sound like a good
>idea to me, but it has been suggested.)
> Lorin
Thanks, Lorin. But you pose that question in a way which
makes it sound like a philosophical issue. "Are we morally
obligated to correct environmental damage."
I'll leave that question for the philosophers. I intended
only to speak to issues of whether or not it was technically
feasible, or even useful to use certain tactics to correct
environmental damage.
Adding ozone is a pretty useless idea, I believe (though
I will stand corrected by someone with better credentials).
As I noted, it is a valuable and useful tactic to stop using
CFCs. Making tons of ozone is not a useful tactic.
As for styrofoam pellets - you should bear in mind that
ozone depletion and global warming are *different* issues.
Ozone blocks UV, CO2 and Methane and H2O block IR. Different
problems requiring radically different approaches.
-Tim
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From: GU091GXR <GU091GXR%bitnet...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Ozone stuff
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
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About this ozone problem:
>address it. Are you saying that we cannot make enough smog? As a long term
>problem, I suspect it is much harder to really mess anything up than people
>suspect - the earth has this way of healing itself (Gaia - call your office).
Yes, ozone is in smog in the cities. But ozone is an unstable su ance
and breaks down before it reaches the stratosphere, where it filters
out UV rays. But I thought this had already been mentioned.
Environmentalists are not extremists. If you continue to do nothing,
the earth will never renew itself.
--G. Racz
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Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1992 12:47:41 EST
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From: Greg `TwoTone' Spiegelberg
<GSPIEGEL%edu.KE...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: why not to vote for tsongas
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`Cause he's not running is good enough an excuse.
-Greg
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From: GU091GXR <GU091GXR%bitnet...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Vegetarianism
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
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>You forgot to mention the effect of cow flatulence on global warming.
Did you mean this as a joke? Actually, livestock farming is a large
source of methane gas (due to the flatulance and cow-patties), which
is a greenhouse gas (I think)
>> 2. Natural resources
>> more than half of all water used in livestock production in the US
>> is in livestock production
>> **Years the world's oil reserves would last if every human ate a
>> meat centered diet:13
>> **Years oil reserves would last if humans no longer ate meat:260
>> 33% of US raw materials are used in livestock production
>
>I don't follow the oil reserve argument at all. It seems to imply that
>everyone who drives a gas-guzzling car is driving to McDonald's. Maybe
>someone can elaborate on this argument?? As for the water, I question
>whether stopping giving that water to cows would really help anybody.
The use of fuel has to do with the process involved in producing and
processing the stuff - another stat may help -- it takes 78
calories of fossil fuel to create 1 calorie of protein from beef,,
and only 2 calories of fuel to get one calorie from soybeans. The
water conservation issue is important in some regions, like
California, etc. It might help there.
More about the health argument you mentioned:
average US man's risk of heart attack is 50%,, compared with
15% for vegetarians and 4% for vegans(those who eat no eggs
or dairy)
heart attack risk reduced 9% by reducing meat intake 10%
The only athlete to win the Ironman Triathalon 6 times
(Dave Scott) is a vegetarian.
Thanks for bringing that up-it's a good argument too.
--G. Racz
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From: "Edmund Ryan KL62@MARISTB"
<KL62%bitnet....@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Comments: To: POLI...@OHSTVMA.BITNET, 1995...@VUVAXCOM.BITNET
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of WED 18 MAR 1992 20:03:00 EST
Sender: POLI...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA
In response to my argument against term limits:
> >lets abolish term limits so we can elect Ronald Reagan again.
>
> blech.
> (sorry, just a gut reaction to visual stimulus)
>
> how about abolishing term limits, but not letting politicians serve 2
> consecutive terms? this would eliminate the incumbant advantage thing,
> and aid in keeping the balance of things from shifting too far in any
> particular direction, but allow someone who was really good to be able
> to come back. also, politicians would not feel pressured to campaign
> when they should be doing something more worthwhile, and there would be
> an incentive to make decisions that are good for the long term rather
> than the short term feel-good stuff that the present system encourages.
>
> brni
1 - How would we not let a politician serve more than 2 terms
for president but not codify that into law?
2 - What's wrong with a politician serving for 30 years in any
elected office?
If he or she is great politican(or more likely statesman),
What's wrong with electing him/her as many times as possible?
Virtually,
Ed
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From: ANDREW ALLEN <E7L8ALL%bitnet....@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: names were changed to protect the quilty
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
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>IMHO, Jay should change his first name to Andrew or Allen or Alex.
>That way, his initials would more accurately reflect his level of
>sensitivity.-)
Whoa, some of us may not approve of the donation of at least two of
those names... B)
The "andrewcentrists" of the list would definitely have to confer before
the first of those names were donated... B)
-other Andy
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From: todd pukanecz <CCCS%bitnet...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Clinton's running mate
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 19 Mar 1992 17:22:47 -0500 from
<KIL...@WVSVAX.WVNET.EDU>
Sender: POLI...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA
FWIW, members of the "Capitol Gang" spoke on campus here Wednesday night.
Novak and Jerman (sp?) postulated alot of the same things as found
here.
Both speculated that Clinton may not get the nod, and that the Dems
may nominate another, including Gephart or Bentson. Both discounted
Cuomo getting the nomination. Personal speculation is that since
Tsongas is still on the ballot in most states, he may wind up with the
nomination after all, 'specially if Brown and Clinton keep a'feudin'.
Kerrey was suggested as a good Clinton running mate. Jerman said he
might choose Bradly of NJ to get north/south appeal and have an all
Rhodes scholar ticket.
todddddddd
=========== Wake up John Doe. You're the hope of the world! ===========
-------- /^^\ ---- Todd Pukanecz ---- ---- CCCS@VTVM1 ----
----- / > --- Ag. Econ. DPL --- "You're young, you've got
--- /\_ / @ \ -- Virginia Tech -- your health; what do you
- /________________> - Blacksburg VA - want a job for?"
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From: GU091GXR <GU091GXR%bitnet...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: why to vote for Brown
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
Sender: POLI...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA
1. The 13% flat tax.
Basically, get rid of the huge beaurocracy and the huge waste of
time involved in tax collection. Having a lower tax with
almost no loopholes simplifies the entire process. And it
gets rid of a lot of bickering over those loopholes.
2. He's not Clinton.
Can anyone really imagine Clinton a
s President? Besides, the scandals will blow wide open once
he's running directly against Bush. Who wants a preesident
with little respect for women (evidenced by affairs) and
all sorts of shady deals coming up every few days? Sure
none of them have been of scandal proportion yet, but
what about the next one? And what would he do during his
term as president?
3. His campaign
At least it's not business-as-usual. This country is in
serious need of election ferorm. Don't tell me that the
steady decrease in election participation (below 50% for the
first time in history in '88) is because of the candidates.
He's the only candidate in a major party who's not running
things along the standard lines.
--G. Racz
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From: Lorin Kusmin <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 18 Mar 1992 20:03:00 EST from <199561011@VUVAXCOM>
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On Wed, 18 Mar 1992 20:03:00 EST The Elf said:
>>lets abolish term limits so we can elect Ronald Reagan again.
>
>blech.
>(sorry, just a gut reaction to visual stimulus)
>
>how about abolishing term limits, but not letting politicians serve 2
>consecutive terms? this would eliminate the incumbant advantage thing,
>and aid in keeping the balance of things from shifting too far in any
>particular direction, but allow someone who was really good to be able
>to come back. also, politicians would not feel pressured to campaign
>when they should be doing something more worthwhile, and there would be
>an incentive to make decisions that are good for the long term rather
>than the short term feel-good stuff that the present system encourages.
>
>brni
Interesting idea. It seems to me that some states apply a rule of this
sort to their governors. Anyone out there with the knowledge to comment on
how it works out in practice?
One problem I do see is that this would limit political careers to people
with the resources and/or connections to survive repeated spells out of
office. Wouldn't this tend to encourage *stronger* ties between legislators
and business interests?
Lorin
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From: "John D. Hopkins" <JHOPKINS%edu.UGA....@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Vegetarianism
Comments: To: POLI...@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
Sender: POLI...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA
> From: GU09...@ITHACA.BITNET
> >You forgot to mention the effect of cow flatulence on global warming.
> Did you mean this as a joke? Actually, livestock farming is a large
> source of methane gas (due to the flatulance and cow-patties), which
> is a greenhouse gas (I think)
No, I wasn't kidding. The thing is that I reaaly wonder whether there are
enough cows in theworld to really make a difference, whether cows produce
methane in anything like the quantities produced by decay in rain forests
and swamps, and whether cattle-produced greenhouse gasses are really
significant against cars and industry.
Some people seem to worry about the tiny little things that may effect the
environment, rather than the large-scale things. Cow farts vs. industrial
and automotive pollution as contributors to global warming sounds like such
an argument.
> The use of fuel has to do with the process involved in producing and
> processing the stuff - another stat may help -- it takes 78
> calories of fossil fuel to create 1 calorie of protein from beef,,
> and only 2 calories of fuel to get one calorie from soybeans. The
> water conservation issue is important in some regions, like
> California, etc. It might help there.
Thank you for the clarification.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
| John D. Hopkins, Operational Support | |
| Terry College of Business Computer Ctr. | jhop...@cbacc.cba.uga.edu |
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From: KAT <MEC038%edu.UK...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: RE: Genetics and ethics
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 20 Mar 1992 14:13:00 EST from
<Richard...@UMAIL.UMD.EDU>
Sender: POLI...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA
From: rf35 <Richard...@UMAIL.UMD.EDU>
> The argument suggests that since for all people who
> are raised in France and who speek french, if they were raised
> in a different culture they would have spoke a different language,
> so the property of "being able to speek french" is entirely de-
> termined by one's envonment.
You are telling us what it is not. Could you tell us what it is?
In other words, can you explain what genetic information causes
people to speak French as opposed to Russian?
> If everybody who is presently in France and who speaks
> french were raised, at the bottom of the Atlantic, they would be
> dead. This does not imply that the property of being alive is
> entirely determined by one's environment.
But I did not say that the fact that all people born in France
grow up to speak French is the necessary AND sufficient proof
that one's language is solely determined by one's environment.
Wait a second, you are not telling me that my claim may be
correct but it is my "proof" which is flawed -- are you?
I still would like to here a direct explanation of how genetic
causes a person to speak French as opposed to Russian.
One more thing: when you say ".... one's language is not
SOLELY determined by one's environment....." what exactly
do you mean by "solely?" Is 99% good enough for solely, or
do you require 99.99% or are you demanding 100%, period?
It was also my understanging that saving math and (hard)
sciences, you never achieve limiting numbers such as 100%.
For example, when we say AIDS in not communicable through
sharing the same air space (i.e. by breathing) we mean that the
chances of that happening is say less than 10**-8 and therefore
for all practical (medical) purposes it is zero.
So let me ask you again: when you say what language you speak
(given that you speak a language and that you were not born
at the bottom of ocean, or that you were not born a vegetable)
is not determined solely by your environment, what level of
accuracy are you assuming? Can you put an approximate number
on what you think is the % of influence of genetics on the
language that one speaks?
> Richard A. Fyfe
--KAT
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From: rf35 <Richard_A_FYFE%edu.UM...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: RE: Genetics and ethics
Comments: To: Forum for the Discussion of Politics <POLI...@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu>
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Greetings:
Without all of the mathematical formulas, my response
to the challenge that the language one speeks is entirely de-
termined by one's culture is this:
The argument suggests that since for all people who
are raised in France and who speek french, if they were raised
in a different culture they would have spoke a different language,
so the property of "being able to speek french" is entirely de-
termined by one's envonment.
If everybody who is presently in France and who speeks
french were raised, at the bottom of the Atlantic, they would be
dead. This does not imply that the property of being alive is
entirely determined by one's environment.
Relevance: There is way in which the genetic material
in some humans interacts with its environment to create humans
who have a strong desire for sexual interaction with members of
the same gender. There is also a way in which the genetic ma-
terial in some humans interacts with its environment creates
humans with desires which are fulfilled best by causing harm,
denying opportunities, and frustrating the desires of homosexuals.
Given these two possibilities, it is reasonable to hold that it
is the latter type of individual that we have more of a reason to
fear and to make an object of condemnation. The homosexual does
not acquire desires which are fulfilled best by harming others;
the anti-homosexual does.
Or, to add some other relevance, it is the anti-homosexual
who has more in common with what is bad in somebody like Jeffrey
Dahmer--desires that can be fulfilled best by activities which
are harmful to others.
Richard A. Fyfe
rf...@umail.umd.edu
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Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1992 11:03:09 -0800
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From: Andy Freeman <andy%edu.STAN...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Public Campaign Funding
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
In-Reply-To: <01GHV3J2B...@TOE.TOWSON.EDU>
Sender: POLI...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA
>Why not instead change the election process so that candidates for office
>have to actually address the issues
Precisely HOW are you going to do that? Only loopy politicians do
that now; even the posers don't.
>and rely entirely upon public support
>through small donations and public funding?
I am opposed to public funding that discriminates on any basis other
than "is the candidate on the ballot", and then only if there are no
real ballot access restrictions, which isn't true now. Any other
procedure is just saying that govt should help successful candidates,
which is worse than making them rely on private support.
In the case of primary campaign funding, party choice should have no
effect. In other words, if the sultan party has 10 candidates and
the demos just two, each of the sultans get as much public money as
each of the demos. I think that some equitable procedure should
be established for parties that use means other than primaries
to select candidates and I'm willing to be persuaded that no public
funds should be available for primaries on the theory that party
choices are "private".
BTW - If you think that big donors can't give the large amounts
through small donations, you're on great drugs. Small donations can't
have significant reporting requirements attached; exploitation of that
fact is one way that good fundraisers get the big bucks.
Oh, and precisely why is my $1k donation "worse" than my spending 50
hours working for the candidate? (Remember, I earned that money
working, so ....) Instead of giving the campaign money, what if I
hire a worker for it?
-andy
--
UUCP: {arpa gateways, sun, decwrl, uunet, rutgers}!cs.stanford.edu!andy
ARPA: an...@cs.stanford.edu
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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1992 15:30:33 EDT
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From: Lorin Kusmin <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Why to NOT vote for Tsongas
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 18 Mar 1992 11:57:06 -0800 from <an...@SAIL.STANFOR
D.EDU>
Sender: POLI...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA
On Wed, 18 Mar 1992 11:57:06 -0800 Andy Freeman said:
>
>Insurance companies don't produce benefits, they merely redistribute
>money (and take a cut for doing so). Those that can accurately
>predict risks, and charge accordingly, grab market share from those
>that don't, because customers don't like to pay subsidies. If the
>legal system changes so that low risk folks are forced to choose
>between paying for high risk folks or going bare, they'll go bare....
>
>
1) This depends on how many high risk folks there are, and how risk-averse
everyone else is. I think most of those folks who have insurance now
would pay a 10 or 20 percent premium over their expected medical care
costs, rather than try to self-insure/go bare. A 100% premium, maybe
not.
2) But you are right, insurers will avoid carrying risky people - e.g. folks
who are already sick - if they can, and healthier individuals will avoid
subsidizing them if they can. What you see in the Federal government,
where insurers cannot turn anyone down, is that most insurers offer
relatively modest protection at a reasonable price, but policies which
are more generous, especially for mental health benefits, are *much*
more expensive. Healthy people choose the low-cost policies, while
if sick people do choose the more comprehensive policies, they get
no subsidy from the healthy for the extra benefits.
What all of this means is that, if you believe everyone is entitled
to a certain level of health care, then we should either form them into
large groups that mix high and low-risk individuals, and compel insurers
who want the business to cover them all....or else go whole-hog and
legislate national health insurance covering everybody. If you try
to make insurers cover sick or other high-risk people as individuals,
they will do whatever they can to discourage those people from signing
on.
Of course, if you are sure that you or someone close to you will never
fall into the "excludable" category, and you think that the folks who
do are responsible for whatever happens to them, because after all if
they had led perfect lives, they probably wouldn't have a health
problem...or if you think Medicaid does a great job of taking care of
folks under these conditions...well, then you won't see much point in
trying to make sure that the insurance umbrella covers everyone.
Well, it's late in the day, and there are probably a couple of caveats
that I've left out. But I guess I'll post this anyway (and try to
fill in the weak spots after andy and jay help me locate them by
shooting at them )
Lorin
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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1992 14:11:37 EDT
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From: Lorin Kusmin <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Primary Guesses vs. Actual Results
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
Sender: POLI...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA
The following is a comparison of the Primary guesses I had received
by yesterday with the "nearly complete" results available as of late
this morning from the Washington Post recorded news line. I've also
provided some analysis of and commentary on our performance.
The best individual guesses are marked with an asterisk
Illinois - Democrats
Clinton Tsongas Brown LaRouche Other/Uncommitted
Neil Covey 55 28 15* 2 (other)
Travis Kidd 65 30 5
Lorin Kusmin 49 28 14 0 9 (other/unc)
V.M. Smith 51* 29 18 le 3
J. Sullivan 45 30 25
Jay S. Sultan 54 26* 12 4
Range 45-65 26-30 5-25
Median 52.5 28.5 14.5
Mean 53.2 28.5 14.8
Actual 52 26 15
Our average forecast came very close; I think the results were also
pretty close to what polls were showing. Individually, 4 of the six
of us (Neil, Valentine, Jay and myself) were close, but none of us
did as well as the average forecast.
Michigan - Democrats
Clinton Tsongas Brown Other Uncommitted
Neil Covey 50 18* 21 11
Travis Kidd less than 10 points between 1st and 3rd place finisher
Lorin Kusmin 42 21 28* 9 (other/uncommitted)
V.M. Smith 49* 20 28*
J. Sullivan 39 20 35 6
Jay S. Sultan 60 20 15
Range 39-60 18-21 15-35
Median 49 20 28
Mean 48 19.8 25.4
Actual 49 18 27 5
Here again, on average we did very well, correctly extrapolating
the rise in Brown support that showed up in late polls.
If Travis had made a point forecast, however, we would have
done less well. As for individual forecasts, Valentine and Neil
did best, with Valentine coming just as close as the average forecast.
Illinois - Republicans
Bush Buchanan Duke Other/Uncommitted
Neil Covey 69 24 4
Travis Kidd 75* 24-25* 1 if on ballot
Lorin Kusmin 68 25 2
V.M. Smith 63 31 le 3
J. Sullivan no GOP guesses
Jay S. Sultan 65 30
Range 63-75 24-31
Median 68 25
Mean 68 27
Actual 76 22
Not so good here - except for Travis, we all overestimated Buchanan.
Michigan - Republicans
Bush Buchanan Duke Other/Uncommitted
Neil Covey 72* 24* 2 2 other
Travis Kidd 53 45-47 2 if on ballot
Lorin Kusmin 58 34 4 4 other/uncommitted*
V.M. Smith 55 37 le 3*
J. Sullivan No GOP guesses
Jay S. Sultan 52 40
Range 52-72 24-47
Median 55 37
Mean 58 36.4
Actual 67 25 3 5 uncommitted
Here again, most of us overestimated Buchanan; only Neil came
fairly close.
Overall, Neil's guesses came closest - for ten candidate-percentage of
vote pairs, his average error was less than 3%. Congratulations, Neil,
you win this week's trophy. (Of course, it's virtual:
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
v POLITICS CUP v
v v March 17, 1992 v v
v v N. Covey v v
v v v v
v v v v
v v
v v
v v
v v v
v
v
v
v
vvvvvvvvvvv )
The median forecast was off by an average of just over 4 percentage
points, calculated over 10 percentage-candidate pairs, and Neil's
guesses were more accurate than the median guess for six of those 10
pairs.
Well, there you have it.
BTW, I agree with Jay, the Congressional primary results were much more
startling. What happened to Dixon? I can't remember when an incumbent
Senator not tarred by major scandal got less than 40% of the primary vote.
Lorin
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Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1992 13:27:11 EST
Reply-To: Forum for the Discussion of Politics
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From: "John D. Hopkins" <JHOPKINS%edu.UGA....@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Vegetarianism
Comments: To: POLI...@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
Sender: POLI...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA
> Today is the National Meat Out. Here are facts supporting the political
> arguments behind the vegetarian movement. Give up meat for a day to
> show your support and for the following reasons:
You forgot to mention the effect of cow flatulence on global warming.
> 1. Hunger
> 29 million people die every year of malnutrition. If Americans
> reduced their meat intake by 10%, 60 million more people could
> be fed.
> 80% of corn grown in the US is eaten by livestock
> 90% of protein is wasted by cycling it through livestock
> 16 pounds of grain and soybean are required to produce one pound
> of beef
This assumes that the grain that all those stupid cows are eating would be
sent to the hungry if the cows didn't eat it. That is untrue. There is
already plenty of surplus food for everyone, but for political and economic
reasons it never gets to those who need it. Avoiding meat won't change that.
> 2. Natural resources
> more than half of all water used in livestock production in the US
> is in livestock production
> **Years the world's oil reserves would last if every human ate a
> meat centered diet:13
> **Years oil reserves would last if humans no longer ate meat:260
> 33% of US raw materials are used in livestock production
I don't follow the oil reserve argument at all. It seems to imply that
everyone who drives a gas-guzzling car is driving to McDonald's. Maybe
someone can elaborate on this argument?? As for the water, I question
whether stopping giving that water to cows would really help anybody.
> 3. Environment
> 300 million pounds of meat imported to U.S annually from Central
and
> South America
> 55 Sq. feet of tropical rainforest consumed in every quarter pound
of
> rainforest beef
Granted, we need to do something about rainforest destruction. This is
probably your best argument. However, the U.S. should do what it can to
help the economies of South American countries so that they can survive by
doing something other than plundering their natural resources. Keep in mind
that those South American countries NEED the money they get from those
exports. Don't expect those exports to stop until there is an economic
alternative for those folks.
> Support the vegetarian movement!
I certainly don't mean to slam the veggies. There are some very good
reasons to reduce meat intake and eat your vegetables like your mother
always told you. I think the best reasons are for personal health and the
effect on the U.S. economy of reduced heath-care costs if we all took a
little better care of ourselves.
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Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1992 11:49:00 CST
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From: DG7631R <DG7631R%bitnet...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Clinton's running mate
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
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With one southerner on the ticket (Clinton), you can't have Gore. Clinton
will have to go to the northeast or the west. DJG
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From: Loomis Mayfield <TI0LFM1%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Braun campaign in Illinois
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
Sender: POLI...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA
THE CAROL MOSELEY BRAUN CAMPAIGN DESPARATELY NEEDS YOUR HELP.
>Reposted from: daniel breslau <br...@MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>
>
>Last night Carol Moseley Braun won the Illinois Democratic
>primary for U.S. Senate, beating incumbent Alan Dixon, one
>of the most right-wing Democrats in the Senate, who
>supported the Clarence Thomas nomination and most of the
>Reagan-Bush agenda. If you aren't from Illinois or Cook
>County or Chicago, you probably haven't heard of Carol
>Moseley Braun. That will soon change.
>
>If she wins the general election in November, Braun will
>become the first African-American woman to serve in the U.S.
>Senate. She will also immediately be one of the most
>progressive voices there. She is a strong and outspoken
>supporter of reproductive rights, gay and lesbian rights,
>disarmament, to name a few. During the campaign, she
>distinguished herself from her well-funded opponents by
>sticking to "substance over sound-bites," arguing clearly
>and unwaveringly for a single payor national health
>insurance plan, and offering detailed proposals for
>reinvesting defense funds in the inner city, job training,
>and national infrastructure.
The campaign desparately needs volunteers throughout the state.
They also need $$$_MONEY_$$$ for the fall campaign against a rich,
well funded candidate, Richard Williamson, who has worked in the
Reagan and Bush administrations and has served as head of the
American Conservative Union. Out of state groups like the Republican
Senate Campaign Committee have already promised her opponent the
maximum they are allowed to give, over $900,000 dollars. The
Democratic counterpart is still "considering" how much they will
give her.
CALL to volunteer: (312)-541-9292.
SEND checks to: BRAUN FOR U.S. SENATE
36 WEST RANDOLPH
5TH FLOOR
CHICAGO, ILL 60601
***********************************************
Loomis Mayfield - TI0LFM1@NIU (BITNET ADDRESS)
(815) 753-2301
Social Science Research Institute
Northern Illinois University
DeKalb, IL 60115 USA
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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1992 10:08:47 EDT
Reply-To: Forum for the Discussion of Politics
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From: Lorin Kusmin <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Primary Results followup
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
Sender: POLI...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA
Apologies.
Primary results in the paper today - presumably more complete than
those I sent out yesterday - change the picture slightly on the
Democratic side. I'm not going to redo my whole analysis of our
performance, but our record in forecasting looks slightly
worse with the latest numbers, and Neil still did best (with the revised
numbers, his Michigan-Clinton forecast is now #1).
New numbers, plus selected lines from earlier post, follow.
Illinois - Democrats
Clinton Tsongas Brown LaRouche Other/Uncommitted
Median 52.5 28.5 14.5
Mean 53.2 28.5 14.8
Actual 52 26 15
Actual (revised)51 26 15 5 uncommitted
Michigan - Democrats
Clinton Tsongas Brown Other Uncommitted
Neil Covey 50* 18* 21 11
V.M. Smith 49 20 28*
Median 49 20 28
Mean 48 19.8 25.4
Actual 49 18 27 5
Actual(revised)51 17 26 5
If the numbers change again, I promise not to tell you about it.
Lorin
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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1992 17:03:51 EDT
Reply-To: Forum for the Discussion of Politics
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From: Lorin Kusmin <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Gas Taxes
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 18 Mar 1992 16:47:49 EST from <PL436000@BROWNVM>
Sender: POLI...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA
On Wed, 18 Mar 1992 16:47:49 EST Jamie said:
>Gas taxes make sense because they bring into the market price
>some costs which would otherwise be external. Pollution, and dependence
>on foreign oil are two obvious examples, perhaps there are others.
>Without the tax, those who use more gas and thereby impose more costs on
>the rest of us aren't paying for those costs.
>
>Some may complain that this is unfair to people who "have to"
>use their cars. But they can certainly buy more fuel-efficient
>cars. And in any case, if their life style is more expensive,
>if it imposes more costs on the rest of us, it isn't unfair
>to make them pay more to live it.
>
>Any other questions?
>
>Jamie
Thanks, Jamie, this seems pretty simple and clear. *But* it does leave
open the question - why tax gasoline in particular? It seems as if all
oil should be taxed if we're trying to reduce oil dependence, and all
fossil fuels are polluting to some extent - I know that they're talking
about a 'carbon tax' to deal with global warming. Is it that a gas tax
is seen as less regressive than, say, a tax that also covered heating oil?
Or what? I mean, I'd rather have a gas tax than no gas tax, but is it
the *best* way to address oil dependence, pollution, etc?
I guess a gas tax might also be viewed as helping to internalize the
effects of driving on traffic congestion - but do gas guzzlers clog the
roads more than Honda Civics?
Regards,
Lorin
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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1992 16:05:30 EDT
Reply-To: Forum for the Discussion of Politics
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From: Lorin Kusmin <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Political ads
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 18 Mar 1992 12:09:41 -0800 from <an...@SAIL.STANFOR
D.EDU>
Sender: POLI...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA
About this business of 30-second spots and 30 minute speeches, I would
guess that the reason that only loons buy the 30-minute blocks of time
is that only loons think that many voters are going to tune in for 30
minutes just to listen to them. The mainstream politicians, or at least
their staffers, are smart enough to know that if you want voters to hear you,
you've gotta catch them in the middle of the Cosby Show and get your
message out before they leave the room to make popcorn...
Cynically yours,
Lorin
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Reply-To: Forum for the Discussion of Politics
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From: Carolyn M Robinson <EL406029%bitnet....@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Homosexuals turn on their own
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
Sender: POLI...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA
>From: Jay Steven Sultan <su...@MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>
>
>A movie with a homosexual villian is causing a big fuss.
>
>The homosexuals are saying that hollywood always portrays them negativly.
>Now, I have not seen the movie, but other than it, all I ever see is
>pro-homosexual stuff eminating from the palace of PC. If I see one more
>sitcom or drama that tells my chilren (which don't exist) that homosexuality
>is a great and wonedrful thing, I may cry.
Well, sitcoms have been doing a better job. (Dinosaurs did a wonderful
parable this season when in turned out the son was a herbivore.) Movies
have a long way to go although Fried Green Tomatoes is exquisite.
>Want to know what hurts the image of homosexuals? Reality.
>
>Jeffery Dahmer.
>Man/Boy love association.
>etc.
Now, we Black folks don't judge all you white folks by the KKK.
I prefer Langston Hughes, Audrey Lorde, Elton John, Martina Navratilova,
Bayard Rustin, & Barney Frank as role models.
If you really want to be educated, Jay, try reading _Violence Against Lesbians
and Gay Men by Gary David Comstock [New York: Columbia University Press, 1991].
--c
el40...@brownvm.bitnet
el40...@brownvm.brown.edu
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^+++++++++++++++++^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1992 09:52:05 EDT
Reply-To: Forum for the Discussion of Politics
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From: Lorin Kusmin <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Replies and comments on the use of nuclear weapons in the near
future
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 17 Mar 1992 17:41:00 CST from <CDELL@UMKCVAX1>
Sender: POLI...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA
Hi,
I haven't been following this closely, but I think your speculations, while
depressing, seem realistic. (One possibility I don't think you mentioned is
the use of nuclear weapons between India and Pakistan.) In terms of the
threat to the human race at large, I don't see the use of a nuclear weapon
by some third world country as comparable to, say, the destruction of the
ozone layer. But since I work only 5 blocks from the White House - not
mentioned in any of your posts, but surely a conceivable target - and since
one of my parents lives in lower Manhattan, and some close friends live
about a mile from the UN complex - it is certainly something that I think
about from time to time in personal terms. I certainly hope you are wrong,
but...
Lorin
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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1992 13:33:12 EDT
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From: Lorin Kusmin <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Tsongas out?
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
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According to AP News at 130 pm, Tsongas is planning to "suspend" his
campaign, but does not plan to release his delegates, and he "retains an
interest in being the nominee." He's supposed to talk to reporters about
3 o'clock. If the AP report is accurate, I guess what he's saying is
"I'm broke and I'm going home now, but if Bill lets you down and you
want me back, I'll be around." Hhmm!
Story on Clinton in the LA Times today commented on Clinton's energy and
determination - contrasted him with Mondale and Dukakis, who didn't act as
if they were sure they wanted to be President. The suggestion was that
Clinton was more in the mold of a Kennedy or Johnson.
Lorin
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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1992 10:15:06 EDT
Reply-To: Forum for the Discussion of Politics
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From: Lorin Kusmin <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Energy and farming
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 18 Mar 1992 01:24:19 GMT from <m...@SSO.LARC.NASA.G
OV>
Sender: POLI...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA
Marston argued in one of his posts that a gas tax would be hunky-dory for
farmers (in part) because it would raise the demand for alternative fuels
from ag-based products. Seems to me that I've read that agriculture in this
country is so fossil-fuel intensive that there isn't much net energy gain
from farms run to produce ethanol, etc., and that the push for big subsidies
for ethanol or other crop-based fuels is basically a big scam by the agri-
culture and ag products lobbies. Does anyone have hard data to confirm or
refute this?
Lorin
BTW, I do think that a gas tax is a good idea, although I would want to see
some sort of tax credit for low-income households to compensate for the
regressive effects.
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Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1992 13:11:09 EST
Reply-To: Forum for the Discussion of Politics
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From: "John D. Hopkins" <JHOPKINS%edu.UGA....@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Clinton's running mate
Comments: To: POLI...@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
Sender: POLI...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA
> With one southerner on the ticket (Clinton), you can't have Gore. Clinton
> will have to go to the northeast or the west. DJG
Agreed. He'll probably ask Cuomo. And Cuomo will tell him to go to hell.
He ought to consider Kerrey or maybe Bradley. I would like to see him pick
Tsongas, but I don't think he will (and I think Paul would be insulted).
If he wants help cruising for chicks in D.C., he could pick Gary Hart (who
also happens to be from the west and has foreign policy expertise).
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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1992 12:15:36 EDT
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From: Lorin Kusmin <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Biology and Ethics
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 19 Mar 1992 10:38:00 EST from <Richard_A_FYFE@UMAI
L.UMD.EDU>
Sender: POLI...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA
On Thu, 19 Mar 1992 10:38:00 EST rf35 said:
>Greetings:
>
> First, nothing is strictly "biologically determined."
>Put a zygote in a vacuum and it will blow apart. Create an en-
>vironment without a zygote and you'll still get nothing (well,
>maybe if you want to wait around for a few hundred million years
>the interaction of chemicals in a lifeless environment will pro-
>duce life, but I assume this is not what we are talking about,)
>All of our properties are caused by an interaction between our
>genetic make-up and the environment in which that genetic package
>exists. Any claim that something is 'caused by' one independent
>of the other is simply false.
>
> Richard A. Fyfe
> rf...@umail.umd.edu
Fair enough, Richard, but isn't this a bit of a straw man? I think it's
more reasonable to translate, say, the statement "sexual preference is
genetically determined" into "nearly all of the variation in sexual
preference among human beings can be accounted for by differences in
genes." Which may well be false - I suspect that it is - but it isn't absurd.
To put it another way, if I said "eye color in human beings is biologically
determined" or "whether you learn to speak English or Spanish as a child
(assuming that you learn to speak at all) is determined by your environment"
would you make the same point? The question at hand was whether
sexual preference
more like eye color, or more like which language you speak, or more like
how tall you are, which reflects both genes and the (nutritional) environment
in which you developed.
Well, I shouldn't say "the question". I think you accurately pointed out the
other day that the question of whether or not there is anything "wrong" with
acting on a sexual preference is quite distinct from where that preference
came from.
I don't remember who said it, but thanks to the person who pointed
out that Jay's rationale for being free not to hire someone gay, if it
was valid, would also imply that he was free not to hire someone who was
divorced, or who admitted to using birth control, or...I hadn't thought
about it this way.
(I'm have to admit that I'm still not sure where the
line is or should be between relationships that are personal and those that
are subject to anti-discrimination laws. If Mr. X doesn't want to go into
partnership with me in a new business because I'm of Jewish origin, well, I
don't think the law should force him to. If Mr. X is a loan officer at a
bank and denies me a loan for the same reason, that seems (to me) pretty
clearly objectionable. If Mr. X is one of three partners in a small law firm,
and I'm applying for a job there in which I would be working with him most of
the time....? Does anyone have comments on either what the law says, or what
principles *should* determine when we can go to court and when we can only say
"What a jerk!")
BTW, Carolyn and Amycat and others - well, I gather that you were mostly
upset with Jay, but I want to express my regret if any of you also felt
depersonalized by any of my postings on homosexuality. I tend to enjoy
looking at issues very analytically, which doesn't mean I don't care about
about the people involved. My postings on the abortion issue were also,
as I recall, pretty analytical, and there are women whom I'm close to who
have had abortions. (There is no on equally close to me who is gay, but I
do know people who are, including the man who currently shares my apartment.)
Anyway, feel free to let me know if I give offense, or make you uncomfortable.
Lorin
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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1992 15:27:39 EDT
Reply-To: Forum for the Discussion of Politics
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From: QUERYPF <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Discrimination against southpaws...
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 18 Mar 1992 10:05:46 -0500 from <sc...@KRONOS.COM>
Sender: POLI...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA
On Wed, 18 Mar 1992 10:05:46 -0500 Scott Riegelhaupt-Herzig said:
>
>The fact is that left-handed people have faced discrimination, at time
>as violent and from the same quarters as those who harrass gays.
>Left-handed people were thought to be servants of Satan and were
>avoided and persecuted by the Church. As recently as my father's
>generation, children were forced by school systems and parents to turn
>from their left-handedness. When I was in elementary school, one
>teacher of mine tried to convert me (although it was a rogue effort,
>one without any official sanction from the school).
>
>Things in society are oriented for the right-handed; scissors are
>generally for right-handed people, manual pencil sharpeners,
>appliances, notebooks, et.al.
>
>I agree that what gays face are an order of magnitude greater than
>what lefties see but that doesn't mean that we southpaws meet the
>world on a level playing field either.
>
>
>Scott P. Riegelhaupt-Herzig sc...@kronos.com
Good post.
Actually, the analogies between homosexuality and left-handedness do seem
kind of striking, in some respects, right up to the difficulty of
"explaining" either.
But I have to admit that I haven't faced any
discrimination as a southpaw myself...except that I wish there were
more smear-proof pens on the market.
Lorin
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From: ANDREW ALLEN <E7L8ALL%bitnet....@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Reply to Jay regarding flatulence
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
Sender: POLI...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA
>>Tax Policy
>>Well, since this is a pie in the sky sort of thing anyway; seeing as neither
>>Jay nor I is likely to become elected to an office wherein we might actually
>>have any sort of direction of the federal government. (I have murky past
>>syndrome; I'm sure Jay has an excuse for not running for president, too B))
>As the spokesman for the Shadow Government, I may have more influence
>than you think. A great man from Mass. once said that ideas are more
>important than people.
So you are asserting as George Meany did when he was asked why he did not
run for president, that you do not wish to diminish your standing and power?
>>I would exempt the first $8,000. of income per dependent per taxpayer
>>up to 12 dependents on an individual income. In other words in a family
>>of 4 dependent upon one income the first $32,000. would be exempt.
>>Everything over that would be taxed at a flat rate of 15%
>>(Actually what is important here is not the actual rate, that can be adjusted,
>>what is important is that it shifts the tax burden off of the middle and
>>lower classes.)
>Then the rate will be about 35-40%, which will destroy the middle class.
>You seem to forget that the majority of the revenue in the status
>quo is paid by the top 1%. You are going to decrease their share!!!
No, I said it would be 15%, and at that it would be less for lower incomes;
this was a pie in the sky sort of proposal, the flat tax proposal has different
rules than the ones that conservative ideologues have been promoting.
The beauty of it is that it is based on a simple system of accounting which
allows corporate income to be taxed in the same way that regular folks income
is; with virtually no deductions.
BTW- can anyone *really* explain why a flat tax is bad for the lower and
middle classes?
>Thanks, on behalf of the rich, but you would also destroy the economy, which
>we don't like, so no thanks.
>Andy, i understand the appeal of the flat tax. But it is simply bad economic
>policy. It places a tremendous burden on the poor and middle class.
Trust me Jay, if the proposal I laid out were enacted more or less the way
that I described it the rich would be thanking me with gratuities in the
form of bullets. B)
>Chicago is known for economics, and I am NOT a student of that department
>(only took one class in developmental economics). But you
>only need high school economics to understand.
>If you believe that the rich are not paying their share, then increase
>the rate they pay. Be careful, however: the Laffer (sp?) curve was
>proven by Reagan and you may remember how well the luxury tax worked.
Jay, it's not "the rich" that I am after exactly, it is the activities
that they participate in which use or remove value from the economy, which
I want to tax adequately. I don't want to "opress" them by taxing them
any more than anybody else or remove incentive for them to invest; however,
I don't want to pay them to give people jobs.
>Most of what you would call "corporate deductions" (and we all know how
>evil corporations are) are actually investment incentives. The rest
>should go.
Come on now Jay, when Lee Iacocca can't sell his private residence for as
much as he would like to get for it and he has Chrysler buy it from him
at an inflated value; Chrysler should be able to write that off?
>for instance:
>>Perks for mangement will be completely undeductable and will be taxed at
>>their fair market value as income for management personnel.
>Thats fine, and congress has tried to do this and failed. But, these
>kind of expenditures go toward business compeditiveness, not lost tax
>revenue.
Oh, I see businesses are more competitive when their executives are all
sloshed at lunchtime; sounds good to me! B)
>>>6)Triple tax on cigaretts and alcohol.
>>Nope; no more sin taxes, any tax of this sort will have to be justified
>>as a "user fee," supporting government services that *directly* go to
>>a related cause.
>AAARRRGGG!!!!!!
>What do you call Medicare!!!!!!
>Damn it all to hell, why must I pay for their habits!?!
Jay, are you on a low cholesterol, low fat diet? Do you participate in a
regular regimen of excercise, were you born free of defects and
predispositions to any expensive disease? I bet that *YOU* are the
reason that my health insurance keeps going up! B)
>>>7)Leagize marijuana, prostitution, and sports gambeling, and
>>>tax at a simmilar rate. I'd estimate, after the cost of
>>>reasonable regulation, a gain of about $90 Bill
>>Once again income from these taxes would go directly to benefits for
>>the payers; such as regular free health care/health certification for
>>prostitutes or the development of really tasty health food munchies
>>for dope smokers (oops, got carried away there B)).
>These things, as well as the other sin taxes,
>are the root of all our societal problems (If you went to church,
>you would know that). So, wen we tax prosetution, we are funding
>the negative effect it has on our society (broken homes and all).
But Jay," The want of money is the root of all evil."
Need I say more? B)
>Jay Steven Sultan Internet: su...@quads.uchicago.edu
>University of Chicago
-other Andy
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From: Lorin Kusmin <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Determinants of sexual preference
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
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KAT,
An interesting "model" of how sexual preferences might be formed. It seems
unlikely to me that a simple algebraic equation would fit something so
complicated, but I think in spirit it seems plausible.
However - as you noted, any "model" like this would seem to imply that the
percentage of the population that is gay would vary in different societies.
Seems to me that I've read the assertion that the 10% figure is pretty
constant - which, if true, would imply that it is mostly a gene-thing
(or else that *all* the cultures studied have persuaded nearly all
who are flexible to live "straight" lives). But I don't know if that
universal 10% is based on credible evidence, or if it's just a factoid.
Lorin
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From: Lorin Kusmin <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Ozone layer
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Good point, Tim. But that still leaves open the broader issue of
whether it makes sense to intervene actively in the environment to
compensate for damage we've done - e.g., using lasers to "zap" CFCs
(no, I don't know what they turn into when zapped) or floating white
styrofoam pellets on a large chunk of ocean to reflect sunlight back
into space to reduce global warming (no, it doesn't sound like a good
idea to me, but it has been suggested.)
Lorin
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From: Lorin Kusmin <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Clinton's running mate
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 19 Mar 1992 17:22:47 -0500 from <KIL...@WVSVAX.WV
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Oh, goody. I'm glad someone brought this up (Thanks once again, Kerry).
I made up a list a few weeks ago of possible running mates for Clinton.
Here are some of the names on my list:
Booth Gardner (governor of Washington state, good-government type, welfare
reformer - but may be busy running for Brock Adams' Senate seat)
Joe Lieberman (moderate Democrat from Connecticut, Clinton supporter,
ex-prosecutor - but will Bubba vote for a ticket with a Jewish candidate
on it)
Paul Simon (popular Senator from a key state, liberal but not ultra, experience
running for national office, and one of Clinton's key campaign aides used to
work for Simon)
Tom Downey (smart, productive, still-youngish Congressman from Long Island -
but may be a bad year to have a House member on the ticket)
Bill Gray (black, moderate ex-Congressman, mentioned by Clinton as a
possible running mate)
Bill Bradley (Clinton's kind of guy in some ways - pro-tax reform, serious
about racial issues, a policy wonk - and from a key state. But will the
country buy a ticket with 2 Rhodes Scholars?)
Ann Richards (an all-Southern ticket isn't likely, but she's got what it
takes if you want a VP candidate who can go negative, and she would
energize the pro-women vote)
Tim Wirth (from Colorado, Gary Hart without the affairs, as far as we know -
but he is up for reelection)
Roy Romer (Governor of Colorado, and reasonably popular there, was partisan
enough to zing Bush at a White House press conference)
Jeff Bingaman (attractive Senator from New Mexico with ideas about the
economy - but also up for Re-election)
Pat Schroeder (actually a friend's suggestion - I'm skeptical about this
one, but who knows?)
Also, I'll add some obvious ones:
Cuomo (would he take it? Well, LBJ ran with Kennedy)
Gephardt (but there is the House problem)
Kerrey (though it is a risky contrast with the draft thing)
And if you want a really wild scenario, how about Colin Powell? (No one
knows which party he belongs to)
Well, enough, I've gotta go off to a meeting. I'm gone til Monday. Have
fun.
Lorin
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From: Lorin Kusmin <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Clinton's running mate
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
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P.S. To Kerry - I'm skeptical about Rockefeller or Gore - two white male
Southerners on one ticket? I know WV isn't exactly South, and Rockefeller
isn't exactly a native, but still...
Lorin
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From: ANDREW ALLEN <E7L8ALL%bitnet....@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Public Campaign Funding
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
Sender: POLI...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA
>I am opposed to public funding that discriminates on any basis other
>than "is the candidate on the ballot", and then only if there are no
>real ballot access restrictions, which isn't true now. Any other
>procedure is just saying that govt should help successful candidates,
>which is worse than making them rely on private support.
Which is fine by me; I want the criteria to be "is the candidate on the
ballot." The only access restriction that I would have (other than meeting
the constitutional age/native origin status) is the requirement that the
candidate collect a certain number of (valid) voter's signatures.
>In the case of primary campaign funding, party choice should have no
>effect. In other words, if the sultan party has 10 candidates and
>the demos just two, each of the sultans get as much public money as
>each of the demos. I think that some equitable procedure should
>be established for parties that use means other than primaries
>to select candidates and I'm willing to be persuaded that no public
>funds should be available for primaries on the theory that party
>choices are "private".
There should be no public funding of primary elections unless all
organised parties have access to them.
>BTW - If you think that big donors can't give the large amounts
>through small donations, you're on great drugs. Small donations can't
>have significant reporting requirements attached; exploitation of that
>fact is one way that good fundraisers get the big bucks.
One might consider controlling what the donations can be spent on; one might
also disallow them from buying TV time, since "we" "own" the airwaves, we
might demand that media outlets provide a certain amount of time for the
airing of public debates in trade for our allowing them to operate their
concessions.
>Oh, and precisely why is my $1k donation "worse" than my spending 50
>hours working for the candidate? (Remember, I earned that money
>working, so ....) Instead of giving the campaign money, what if I
>hire a worker for it?
I think that it is possible to disallow companies from donating personnel
to a campaign. (Though I suppose fairly hard to police; I guess we'd have
to find a suitable deterrent, let's see if the company is caught they
wouldn't receive gov't contracts, how about that?)
-andy
-other Andy
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From: ANDREW ALLEN <E7L8ALL%bitnet....@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: other Andy proposes a really flat tax
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>I don't see why advertising is seen as significantly different than
>coke for a blast furnace.
It's deceptively simple, I know, but the coke for the blast furnace
is used to *make* the product; you can't have a product without it.
The product exists without *advertisement*.
>If you can't tell your customers about your
>product and convince them to buy it, you might as well not produce.
I didn't say that you *couldn't* advertize; just that it was not something
that you could write off.
>Aside: We don't necessarily need a tax policy, we only need a way to
>fund govt activities. Since the cost of compliance with tax policy is
>so high, perhaps we ought to look to alternatives.
The cost of compliance is one of the reasons why I wanted to make the
tax code simpler, to make it less likely that fraud would occur since
it would be so easy to detect.
>-andy
-other Andy
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From: LAURA ANNELIESE LORSON
<ANNELIES%bitnet....@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: rhodes scholars i'd vote for
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
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possible other rhodes vp candidates who might find widespread appeal:
kris kristofferson
shauna mc gee (a friend of mine, now working for a major multinational but who
still gets to wear cool clothes)
richard williamson (a judge in kentucky)
um, possible running mates was the question on the floor, i believe.
i'd say bradley might bite, but probably not. he wants the whole cookie jar,
unsullied, in 1996. no way, no day on the cuomo candidacy.
rockefeller is an okay guess. whoever suggested paul simon, i must tell you
that i am still getting a kick out of that. bentsen, maybe. gephardt, maybe.
i don't know. i don't much care. whatever.
i was thinking today about pat buchanan, and was wondering:
how did pat get away with having so much credibility for so long? the reason
he became not-a-threat to george was because george finally started treating him
like he was a joke. it's as if the media woke up one morning and said,
"hey, hang on a second! pat hasn't actually won *anything* yet, has he?"
i guess he doesn't water the liquor at those swanky washington npr and pbs
commentator parties he must throw in order to keep such a devoted retinue of
onlookers.
is anything happening overseas?
* * *anneliese "gee, no, i'm going to duluth for
spring holiday" l.
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From: Jamie <PL436000%bitnet....@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Public Campaign Funding
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>From: Andy Freeman <an...@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>
>BTW - If you think that big donors can't give the large amounts
>through small donations, you're on great drugs. Small donations can't
>have significant reporting requirements attached; exploitation of that
>fact is one way that good fundraisers get the big bucks.
For example?
>Oh, and precisely why is my $1k donation "worse" than my spending 50
>hours working for the candidate? (Remember, I earned that money
>working, so ....)
Because you and I and Ross Perot all have at least roughly
equal resources to devote to our favorite campaigns if
we're talking about time. But Ross has a WHOLE lot more
if we're talking about cash.
>Instead of giving the campaign money, what if I
>hire a worker for it?
That would certainly have to be banned, for the same reason.
Jamie
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From: GU091GXR <GU091GXR%bitnet...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: A tithe of homosexuals
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
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>As I have said before, I do not beliefe the 10% figure. It is just beyond
>reason. Blacks are only 16% of america, and look at all the attention the
>receive and how we address their problems.
>If there was really 10%, then there would never be any anti-gay violence and
>they would not appear to be such a persecuted minority. 10% is huge for a
>mninority.
1. The 10% is based on scientific psychological research. Have you ever
heard of the Kinsey scale? According to this, only 10% of the
population is either *completely* heterosexual or completely
homosexual. This means the majority are a mixture of both,
even if they don't realize it themselves.
2. Blacks are 16%, and look at how their problems are ignored much of
the time. And there is LOTS of anti-black violence. So 10%
homosexual population is not too large for discrimination.
--G. Racz
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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1992 11:01:11 EDT
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From: Lorin Kusmin <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Gas taxes
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 18 Mar 1992 00:05:47 EST from <BAFEI@CONNCOLL>
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On Wed, 18 Mar 1992 00:05:47 EST <BAFEI@CONNCOLL> said:
>
>>
>> 2) we raise gas prices - people buy less
>
>This isn't the case, Marston. People still have to go places and do things
>and will do so until the price of gas becomes prohibitive at which point,
>the people will revolt and the earth will explode. Gas is a staple
>commodity like food and people will buy it until they can't afford it and
>when they can't afford, they will riot. Your $.50 is not going to change
>that.
>
>>
>
>You forget that the unleaded change was caused by legislative coercion not
>because of a cheaper source. No one voluntarily will change what they drive
>over $0.50/gallon.
>
>
>Brett
Brett,
This is the sort of statement that makes economists like me want
to pass a law so that everyone would have to take some economics, preferably
with some empirical content, so that you would either (a) already know or
(b) understand me when I say "The short-run price elasticity of demand for
gasoline is low - about 0.1 - but not zero. The long-run price elasticity
is higher (unfortunately, I don't know the exact number)"
I can't be sure that you don't understand the above, but I don't think you
would have made the above statements if you did. Anyway, probably a lot of
other people on the list don't known economese. So, to translate:
What economists have found is that in the relatively-short-run, a 10% increase
in the price of gas (e.g. an 11 cent tax if gas is at $1.10 a gallon) will
cut down on the use of gas by about 1%. So a 50 cent increase would reduce
gas use 4-5 percent. I don't know exactly where and how people cut back,
but presumably when gas prices are higher, some people decide not to take
that long camping vacation, a few decide to put up with the hassles of car-
pooling, some folks get more careful about doing all of their errands on one
trip, etc. Not big stuff, but it makes *some* difference.
In the longer run, higher-priced gas will make a bigger difference than that.
No, we won't start walking and bicycling everywhere. But more people will
buy smaller, more fuel-efficient cars. Some folks will decide to buy a
smaller townhome closer to work, rather than a big new house on the edge of
the suburbs. More folks will start taking the bus to work in areas where they
are available, and so more bus routes will be added. Over ten years or so,
these sort of things add up. I'm not saying all of those changes are for the
good -e.g. smaller cars on average are more dangerous - but it is wrong to
say that a substantial gas tax would not have any effect on how much gas
is used in this country.
Regards,
Lorin
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From: Lorin Kusmin <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Energy and farming
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From: Andy Freeman <andy%edu.STAN...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Public Campaign Funding
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
In-Reply-To: <01GHV3J2B...@TOE.TOWSON.EDU>
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>Why not instead change the election process so that candidates for office
>have to actually address the issues
Precisely HOW are you going to do that? Only loopy politicians do
that now; even the posers don't.
>and rely entirely upon public support
>through small donations and public funding?
I am opposed to public funding that discriminates on any basis other
than "is the candidate on the ballot", and then only if there are no
real ballot access restrictions, which isn't true now. Any other
procedure is just saying that govt should help successful candidates,
which is worse than making them rely on private support.
In the case of primary campaign funding, party choice should have no
effect. In other words, if the sultan party has 10 candidates and
the demos just two, each of the sultans get as much public money as
each of the demos. I think that some equitable procedure should
be established for parties that use means other than primaries
to select candidates and I'm willing to be persuaded that no public
funds should be available for primaries on the theory that party
choices are "private".
BTW - If you think that big donors can't give the large amounts
through small donations, you're on great drugs. Small donations can't
have significant reporting requirements attached; exploitation of that
fact is one way that good fundraisers get the big bucks.
Oh, and precisely why is my $1k donation "worse" than my spending 50
hours working for the candidate? (Remember, I earned that money
working, so ....) Instead of giving the campaign money, what if I
hire a worker for it?
-andy
--
UUCP: {arpa gateways, sun, decwrl, uunet, rutgers}!cs.stanford.edu!andy
ARPA: an...@cs.stanford.edu
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From: Lorin Kusmin <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Clinton's running mate
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 19 Mar 1992 17:22:47 -0500 from <KIL...@WVSVAX.WV
NET.EDU>
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Oh, goody. I'm glad someone brought this up (Thanks once again, Kerry).
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From: Jamie <PL436000%bitnet....@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Public Campaign Funding
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>From: Andy Freeman <an...@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>
>BTW - If you think that big donors can't give the large amounts
>through small donations, you're on great drugs. Small donations can't
>have significant reporting requirements attached; exploitation of that
>fact is one way that good fundraisers get the big bucks.
For example?
>Oh, and precisely why is my $1k donation "worse" than my spending 50
>hours working for the candidate? (Remember, I earned that money
>working, so ....)
Because you and I and Ross Perot all have at least roughly
equal resources to devote to our favorite campaigns if
we're talking about time. But Ross has a WHOLE lot more
if we're talking about cash.
>Instead of giving the campaign money, what if I
>hire a worker for it?
That would certainly have to be banned, for the same reason.
Jamie
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Subject: Re: Clinton's running mate
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From: Lorin Kusmin <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Gas Taxes
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In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 18 Mar 1992 16:47:49 EST from <PL436000@BROWNVM>
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On Wed, 18 Mar 1992 16:47:49 EST Jamie said:
>Gas taxes make sense because they bring into the market price
>some costs which would otherwise be external. Pollution, and dependence
>on foreign oil are two obvious examples, perhaps there are others.
>Without the tax, those who use more gas and thereby impose more costs on
>the rest of us aren't paying for those costs.
>
>Some may complain that this is unfair to people who "have to"
>use their cars. But they can certainly buy more fuel-efficient
>cars. And in any case, if their life style is more expensive,
>if it imposes more costs on the rest of us, it isn't unfair
>to make them pay more to live it.
>
>Any other questions?
>
>Jamie
Thanks, Jamie, this seems pretty simple and clear. *But* it does leave
open the question - why tax gasoline in particular? It seems as if all
oil should be taxed if we're trying to reduce oil dependence, and all
fossil fuels are polluting to some extent - I know that they're talking
about a 'carbon tax' to deal with global warming. Is it that a gas tax
is seen as less regressive than, say, a tax that also covered heating oil?
Or what? I mean, I'd rather have a gas tax than no gas tax, but is it
the *best* way to address oil dependence, pollution, etc?
I guess a gas tax might also be viewed as helping to internalize the
effects of driving on traffic congestion - but do gas guzzlers clog the
roads more than Honda Civics?
Regards,
Lorin
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From: KILBURN <KILBURN%edu.WVNE...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Vegetarianism
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John: I got the first reply to your post before the post itself. I'm just
gonna point out a couple things:
>This assumes that the grain that all those stupid cows are eating would be
>sent to the hungry if the cows didn't eat it. That is untrue. There is
>already plenty of surplus food for everyone, but for political and economic
>reasons it never gets to those who need it. Avoiding meat won't change that.
All else being equal (and when is it ever?), you can support more people
per unit agricultural land on an all-plant diet than you can on a mixed
diet. Thus, in the long run, we can more easily support the growing
population at a higher level of nutrition on plant foods than on animal
foods.
>I don't follow the oil reserve argument at all. It seems to imply that
>everyone who drives a gas-guzzling car is driving to McDonald's. Maybe
>someone can elaborate on this argument?? As for the water, I question
>whether stopping giving that water to cows would really help anybody.
On the water -- yes, it could help in the long run. Most water used for
agriculture and livestock production (and just about everything else we do)
comes from aquifers -- ground water than cannot be replaced at the rates we
currently use it. I don't have the figures on the amount of water used for
livestock production, but it's a bunch.
Of course, if we stopped using it for livestock, it'd just go to support
urban growth in deserts like Los Angeles -- but the *idea* is valid :)
Oh, well. We're having tofu stir-fry for dinner, but that won't stop me
from ordering prime rib next time I go out.... :)
Kerry
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From: Greg `TwoTone' Spiegelberg
<GSPIEGEL%edu.KE...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: why not to vote for tsongas
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`Cause he's not running is good enough an excuse.
-Greg
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From: GU091GXR <GU091GXR%bitnet...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Vegetarianism
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
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>You forgot to mention the effect of cow flatulence on global warming.
Did you mean this as a joke? Actually, livestock farming is a large
source of methane gas (due to the flatulance and cow-patties), which
is a greenhouse gas (I think)
>> 2. Natural resources
>> more than half of all water used in livestock production in the US
>> is in livestock production
>> **Years the world's oil reserves would last if every human ate a
>> meat centered diet:13
>> **Years oil reserves would last if humans no longer ate meat:260
>> 33% of US raw materials are used in livestock production
>
>I don't follow the oil reserve argument at all. It seems to imply that
>everyone who drives a gas-guzzling car is driving to McDonald's. Maybe
>someone can elaborate on this argument?? As for the water, I question
>whether stopping giving that water to cows would really help anybody.
The use of fuel has to do with the process involved in producing and
processing the stuff - another stat may help -- it takes 78
calories of fossil fuel to create 1 calorie of protein from beef,,
and only 2 calories of fuel to get one calorie from soybeans. The
water conservation issue is important in some regions, like
California, etc. It might help there.
More about the health argument you mentioned:
average US man's risk of heart attack is 50%,, compared with
15% for vegetarians and 4% for vegans(those who eat no eggs
or dairy)
heart attack risk reduced 9% by reducing meat intake 10%
The only athlete to win the Ironman Triathalon 6 times
(Dave Scott) is a vegetarian.
Thanks for bringing that up-it's a good argument too.
--G. Racz
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From: GU091GXR <GU091GXR%bitnet...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: why to vote for Brown
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
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1. The 13% flat tax.
Basically, get rid of the huge beaurocracy and the huge waste of
time involved in tax collection. Having a lower tax with
almost no loopholes simplifies the entire process. And it
gets rid of a lot of bickering over those loopholes.
2. He's not Clinton.
Can anyone really imagine Clinton a
s President? Besides, the scandals will blow wide open once
he's running directly against Bush. Who wants a preesident
with little respect for women (evidenced by affairs) and
all sorts of shady deals coming up every few days? Sure
none of them have been of scandal proportion yet, but
what about the next one? And what would he do during his
term as president?
3. His campaign
At least it's not business-as-usual. This country is in
serious need of election ferorm. Don't tell me that the
steady decrease in election participation (below 50% for the
first time in history in '88) is because of the candidates.
He's the only candidate in a major party who's not running
things along the standard lines.
--G. Racz
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From: todd pukanecz <CCCS%bitnet...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Clinton's running mate
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 19 Mar 1992 17:22:47 -0500 from
<KIL...@WVSVAX.WVNET.EDU>
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FWIW, members of the "Capitol Gang" spoke on campus here Wednesday night.
Novak and Jerman (sp?) postulated alot of the same things as found
here.
Both speculated that Clinton may not get the nod, and that the Dems
may nominate another, including Gephart or Bentson. Both discounted
Cuomo getting the nomination. Personal speculation is that since
Tsongas is still on the ballot in most states, he may wind up with the
nomination after all, 'specially if Brown and Clinton keep a'feudin'.
Kerrey was suggested as a good Clinton running mate. Jerman said he
might choose Bradly of NJ to get north/south appeal and have an all
Rhodes scholar ticket.
todddddddd
=========== Wake up John Doe. You're the hope of the world! ===========
-------- /^^\ ---- Todd Pukanecz ---- ---- CCCS@VTVM1 ----
----- / > --- Ag. Econ. DPL --- "You're young, you've got
--- /\_ / @ \ -- Virginia Tech -- your health; what do you
- /________________> - Blacksburg VA - want a job for?"
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From: Lorin Kusmin <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
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In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 18 Mar 1992 20:03:00 EST from <199561011@VUVAXCOM>
Sender: POLI...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA
On Wed, 18 Mar 1992 20:03:00 EST The Elf said:
>>lets abolish term limits so we can elect Ronald Reagan again.
>
>blech.
>(sorry, just a gut reaction to visual stimulus)
>
>how about abolishing term limits, but not letting politicians serve 2
>consecutive terms? this would eliminate the incumbant advantage thing,
>and aid in keeping the balance of things from shifting too far in any
>particular direction, but allow someone who was really good to be able
>to come back. also, politicians would not feel pressured to campaign
>when they should be doing something more worthwhile, and there would be
>an incentive to make decisions that are good for the long term rather
>than the short term feel-good stuff that the present system encourages.
>
>brni
Interesting idea. It seems to me that some states apply a rule of this
sort to their governors. Anyone out there with the knowledge to comment on
how it works out in practice?
One problem I do see is that this would limit political careers to people
with the resources and/or connections to survive repeated spells out of
office. Wouldn't this tend to encourage *stronger* ties between legislators
and business interests?
Lorin
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From: "John D. Hopkins" <JHOPKINS%edu.UGA....@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Vegetarianism
Comments: To: POLI...@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu
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> From: GU09...@ITHACA.BITNET
> >You forgot to mention the effect of cow flatulence on global warming.
> Did you mean this as a joke? Actually, livestock farming is a large
> source of methane gas (due to the flatulance and cow-patties), which
> is a greenhouse gas (I think)
No, I wasn't kidding. The thing is that I reaaly wonder whether there are
enough cows in theworld to really make a difference, whether cows produce
methane in anything like the quantities produced by decay in rain forests
and swamps, and whether cattle-produced greenhouse gasses are really
significant against cars and industry.
Some people seem to worry about the tiny little things that may effect the
environment, rather than the large-scale things. Cow farts vs. industrial
and automotive pollution as contributors to global warming sounds like such
an argument.
> The use of fuel has to do with the process involved in producing and
> processing the stuff - another stat may help -- it takes 78
> calories of fossil fuel to create 1 calorie of protein from beef,,
> and only 2 calories of fuel to get one calorie from soybeans. The
> water conservation issue is important in some regions, like
> California, etc. It might help there.
Thank you for the clarification.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
| John D. Hopkins, Operational Support | |
| Terry College of Business Computer Ctr. | jhop...@cbacc.cba.uga.edu |
| University of Georgia, ph.(404)542-3829 | |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Con is the opposite of Pro. That means Congress must be the opposite |
| of Progress." |
| -- Gallagher |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: KAT <MEC038%edu.UK...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: RE: Genetics and ethics
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 20 Mar 1992 14:13:00 EST from
<Richard...@UMAIL.UMD.EDU>
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From: rf35 <Richard...@UMAIL.UMD.EDU>
> The argument suggests that since for all people who
> are raised in France and who speek french, if they were raised
> in a different culture they would have spoke a different language,
> so the property of "being able to speek french" is entirely de-
> termined by one's envonment.
You are telling us what it is not. Could you tell us what it is?
In other words, can you explain what genetic information causes
people to speak French as opposed to Russian?
> If everybody who is presently in France and who speaks
> french were raised, at the bottom of the Atlantic, they would be
> dead. This does not imply that the property of being alive is
> entirely determined by one's environment.
But I did not say that the fact that all people born in France
grow up to speak French is the necessary AND sufficient proof
that one's language is solely determined by one's environment.
Wait a second, you are not telling me that my claim may be
correct but it is my "proof" which is flawed -- are you?
I still would like to here a direct explanation of how genetic
causes a person to speak French as opposed to Russian.
One more thing: when you say ".... one's language is not
SOLELY determined by one's environment....." what exactly
do you mean by "solely?" Is 99% good enough for solely, or
do you require 99.99% or are you demanding 100%, period?
It was also my understanging that saving math and (hard)
sciences, you never achieve limiting numbers such as 100%.
For example, when we say AIDS in not communicable through
sharing the same air space (i.e. by breathing) we mean that the
chances of that happening is say less than 10**-8 and therefore
for all practical (medical) purposes it is zero.
So let me ask you again: when you say what language you speak
(given that you speak a language and that you were not born
at the bottom of ocean, or that you were not born a vegetable)
is not determined solely by your environment, what level of
accuracy are you assuming? Can you put an approximate number
on what you think is the % of influence of genetics on the
language that one speaks?
> Richard A. Fyfe
--KAT
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From: Carolyn M Robinson <EL406029%bitnet....@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Homosexuals turn on their own
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
Sender: POLI...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA
>From: Jay Steven Sultan <su...@MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>
>
>A movie with a homosexual villian is causing a big fuss.
>
>The homosexuals are saying that hollywood always portrays them negativly.
>Now, I have not seen the movie, but other than it, all I ever see is
>pro-homosexual stuff eminating from the palace of PC. If I see one more
>sitcom or drama that tells my chilren (which don't exist) that homosexuality
>is a great and wonedrful thing, I may cry.
Well, sitcoms have been doing a better job. (Dinosaurs did a wonderful
parable this season when in turned out the son was a herbivore.) Movies
have a long way to go although Fried Green Tomatoes is exquisite.
>Want to know what hurts the image of homosexuals? Reality.
>
>Jeffery Dahmer.
>Man/Boy love association.
>etc.
Now, we Black folks don't judge all you white folks by the KKK.
I prefer Langston Hughes, Audrey Lorde, Elton John, Martina Navratilova,
Bayard Rustin, & Barney Frank as role models.
If you really want to be educated, Jay, try reading _Violence Against Lesbians
and Gay Men by Gary David Comstock [New York: Columbia University Press, 1991].
--c
el40...@brownvm.bitnet
el40...@brownvm.brown.edu
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^+++++++++++++++++^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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From: rf35 <Richard_A_FYFE%edu.UM...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: RE: Genetics and ethics
Comments: To: Forum for the Discussion of Politics <POLI...@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu>
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Greetings:
Without all of the mathematical formulas, my response
to the challenge that the language one speeks is entirely de-
termined by one's culture is this:
The argument suggests that since for all people who
are raised in France and who speek french, if they were raised
in a different culture they would have spoke a different language,
so the property of "being able to speek french" is entirely de-
termined by one's envonment.
If everybody who is presently in France and who speeks
french were raised, at the bottom of the Atlantic, they would be
dead. This does not imply that the property of being alive is
entirely determined by one's environment.
Relevance: There is way in which the genetic material
in some humans interacts with its environment to create humans
who have a strong desire for sexual interaction with members of
the same gender. There is also a way in which the genetic ma-
terial in some humans interacts with its environment creates
humans with desires which are fulfilled best by causing harm,
denying opportunities, and frustrating the desires of homosexuals.
Given these two possibilities, it is reasonable to hold that it
is the latter type of individual that we have more of a reason to
fear and to make an object of condemnation. The homosexual does
not acquire desires which are fulfilled best by harming others;
the anti-homosexual does.
Or, to add some other relevance, it is the anti-homosexual
who has more in common with what is bad in somebody like Jeffrey
Dahmer--desires that can be fulfilled best by activities which
are harmful to others.
Richard A. Fyfe
rf...@umail.umd.edu
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From: Lorin Kusmin <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Replies and comments on the use of nuclear weapons in the near
future
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 17 Mar 1992 17:41:00 CST from <CDELL@UMKCVAX1>
Sender: POLI...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA
Hi,
I haven't been following this closely, but I think your speculations, while
depressing, seem realistic. (One possibility I don't think you mentioned is
the use of nuclear weapons between India and Pakistan.) In terms of the
threat to the human race at large, I don't see the use of a nuclear weapon
by some third world country as comparable to, say, the destruction of the
ozone layer. But since I work only 5 blocks from the White House - not
mentioned in any of your posts, but surely a conceivable target - and since
one of my parents lives in lower Manhattan, and some close friends live
about a mile from the UN complex - it is certainly something that I think
about from time to time in personal terms. I certainly hope you are wrong,
but...
Lorin
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From: KAT <MEC038%edu.UK...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Some thoughts on insurance
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
Sender: POLI...@edu.ohio-state.acs.ohstvma
(I am paraphrasing here but) Andy Freeman said that insurance
companies don't provide (or was it create?) any benefit but
only distribute the risk. Though I disagree with not providing
any benefit, I agree with the other point.
However, the main reason of this post is to share with you some
thoughts on insurance.
Say we have a large pool of people (group A) who are identical in all
recognizable aspects that affect one's
general health cost (say all women, all the same age, all with no
birth defect, all don't smoke, etc.). Let's also assume that we
have followed this group for many years and have calculated that
on the AVERAGE each person's health care cost about $2000 a year.
BTW: there is a level of confidence that goes with this type of
analysis and is usually shown by adding a +,- that is, say,
$2000 (+- 1%). This error will decrease with increasing
number of years that we have followed the group and decrease with increasing
number of people in the group. Now if you become an insurance company
with only one customer (the equal to an uninsured person) the
number might be $2,000 (+50,000%, -100%). Meaning that a single
person might end up with a health care cost of nothing or if she
is unlukcy $1,000,000.
Obviously one cannot take such a risk. THAT
is why we need insurance companies and THAT is why I think insurance
companies DO provide a service/benefit.
Now just say that in this hypothetical town, it is customary/usual/
legal/acceptable/whatever for insurance companies to charge about
10% to provide such a service. Then the minimum acceptable pool
for an insurance companies is to insure enough people such the
risk becomes $2000 (+- p%)
where p is small enough (most conservative is p < 10%) such that
no risk is involved. (However if you are a bit daring you can
hope that the -p's cancel +p's and go for much larger p's such as
20% or so.)
Which brings me to my POLITICAL point.
So one role of the insurance
companies is to provide a distribution of risk among a certain group.
Let's assume a group of similar people have the health care ocst of P (+-p%).
It is further obvious that different groups have different P's (they
may have the same p if the number of people in their group is
somewhat identical). Now the political question is whether the role
of insurance companies are also to mix two group, say A and B, where
P(B) is larger than P(A) and in effect force A people to subsidize
B people.
Think about it: why should A people pay for B people. Why can't
A people go to a private insurance company and get a smaller premium than
if they were mixed with B people.
The problem with this system is that not only some group will pay
more than others but that some group might have to pay huge amount
of premiums, say babies who are born with weight less than 4 pounds.
Now I am all for the government to collect tax from EVERYBODY and
provide free or subsidized health care to this unfortunate group. What
I am not sure is why would healthy people pay for unhealthy people.
Now I am sure some of you would say ".... but it is good social policy
to distribute the risk over everyone, that it is not the premature baby's
fault that she was born with less than 4 pounds weight." To which I
would like to say that some people are also born into poor or rich
families without having any say to this (let me see, is being born
to a rich family genetically determined or environmentally determined,
hmmmmmmm?). But yet we don't distribute the wealth from inheritance.
In summary let me ask the following questions.
1. Should PRIVATE insurance companies not only spread the
risk among the same risk group but also mix different
risk groups? and why?
2. If we say no to the second part of question (1), then should
the society subsidize the health care of those with huge risk?
--KAT
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From: KAT <MEC038%edu.UK...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: PC advocate=devils advocate
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 21 Mar 1992 16:53:45 EST from <MM12@NMUMUS>
Sender: POLI...@edu.ohio-state.acs.ohstvma
From: "James W. Evans" <MM...@NMUMUS.BITNET>
> ........................................................... It doesn't
> matter how you try to justify homosexuallity, the fact remains that
> reproductivly speeking, it is completely wrong! Now I know that some of
> you are going to screem about this last statement, but heterosexuality
> will prevail until the end of time, because homosexuals would soon
> destroy life as we know it.
> J. Evans
If "homosexuals will soon destroy life as we know it," then how could
you claim that "...but heterosexuality will prevail until the end of time?"
And not only you are saying this two phrases in the same paragraph but
in the same sentence back to back.
What do you have in mind, gas chambers?
Jay, if you can't see how wrong you are by listening to us, you
should be easily convinced by listening to those who are gonna write
you in for president.
--KAT
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From: GU091GXR <GU091GXR%bitnet...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: PC advocate=devils advocate
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
Sender: POLI...@edu.ohio-state.acs.ohstvma
>Their all up in arms about this movie
>"bashing" gay/lesbians, but yet they screem about censorship and
>point to their 1st amendment tatoo.
The difference is that gay-bashing is DIRECTLY harmful to the
people getting bashed. People should be aware of this. Words turn
into actions and stereotypes. If Holleywood isn't producing movies with
positive homosexual roes, the population will get a negative perception\
about homosexuals in general, no matter whether people say that they
weren't intending harm, and weren't trying to portray all homosexuals
as bad. This negative perception then leads to discrimination and
violence.
> And where did this term "gay
>bashing" come from. The only gay bashing that I see is on the bathroom
>walls right next to several repulsive homosexual refrenses. It doesn't
Open your eyes. Maybe you should get to know someone who is gay
so you can see the feeling of fear that they often feel. Try having
someone call you a "fag" just because you happened to walk by.
Besides, you do it right here:
>matter how you try to justify homosexuallity, the fact remains that
>reproductivly speeking, it is completely wrong! Now I know that some of
>you are going to screem about this last statement, but heterosexuality
>will prevail until the end of time, because homosexuals would soon
>destroy life as we know it.
These statements have no factual basis. I suppose you'll next say that
birth control is "reproductively wrong". Come on! What's that
supposed to mean, anyway? And how would homosexuals destroy life
as we know it?
--G. Racz
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From: GU091GXR <GU091GXR%bitnet...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on insurance
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
Sender: POLI...@edu.ohio-state.acs.ohstvma
> 1. Should PRIVATE insurance companies not only spread the
> risk among the same risk group but also mix different
> risk groups? and why?
>
> 2. If we say no to the second part of question (1), then should
> the society subsidize the health care of those with huge risk?
1. Well, that's certainly tricky. If you mix groups (not even
talking economically, here) those who have lower determined
risk will be at a disadvantage. If you don't, those with higher
risk (and therefore higher average need) are at a disadvantage.
Maybe you could divide by having one large group of low-risk
and high-risk that is, say, genetic or not under the control of
the patient, and another with people in high risk activities (
like smoking). The problem with that is you get back to the whole
heredity vs. environment thing (which can't be resolved by
modern science, it would seem) because of problems like
alcoholism, and the fact that homosexual men are at a higher
risk of AIDS than other people. hmmmmmm. Regardless of this,
the companies WON'T do this, because it would mean losing
money (low-risk people find another company, high-risk people
use that company), unless they are required to. So, they
SHOULD, but I'm not sure that they CAN.
2. Yes, society should subsidize those with huge risk. Unless society
in general is willing to just watch people die because they can't
afford insurance, of just can't get it. The issue goes beyond the
economics, and to the ethical issue. Society's not providing
help for those who can't be helped by the commercial insurance
companies amounts to the same act, morally, as lining them up
and shooting them.
--G. Racz
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From: "Tom Cunningham, Computer Science Department"
<TPC%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Ross Perot
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
Sender: POLI...@edu.ohio-state.acs.ohstvma
Hi:
I do not subscribe to this list; therefore, please reply privately.
Does any one have an address or phone number in Pennsylvania for anyone
supporting Ross Perot's possible candidacy for President.
Tom
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From: Lorin Kusmin <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: jay makes a good point
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 18 Mar 1992 21:53:00 EST from <199561011@VUVAXCOM>
Sender: POLI...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA
On Wed, 18 Mar 1992 21:53:00 EST Deterritorializing Agent said:
>jay asked a good question.
>everyone has been complaining about ozone depletion,
>and i agree that the time to stop putting cfcs in the system is
>long past gone,
>BUT...
>has anyone heard of any efforts to RESTORE the ozone?
>i mean, technology has its good points too, doesn't it?
>why aren't people researching ways of producing ozone in the places
>where it is needed?
>why did it take jay to suggest it?
>are all us "liberal commie types" really that dense?
>
>brni
I've seen a couple of news articles about active technological fixes that
might be used to counter big environmental problems like ozone depletion,
global warming, etc. Newsweek did a piece on this theme a few months ago,
I remember. The tone of the piece was "aren't these wild, wacky ideas" but
they didn't offer compelling reason to scoff. I don't recall if they
included an idea similar to Jay's - ozone-generating airplanes flying around
at high altitudes - but they did mention a proposal to use lasers on
mountaintops to somehow "zap" CFCs in a fashion that would render them less
harmful.
All of this is somewhat outside of my realm of expertise (if I have any :-))
but I do have two thoughts:
Jay's suggestion might be difficult to implement since the "missing" ozone
is in the stratosphere, and it's difficult-to-impossible to get
a large air-breathing vehicle up that high (on the other hand, maybe some
extra ozone in the upper troposphere would do just as much good???);
In general, we need to beware of unintended consequences. If we make a
mess, and then clean it up, the clean-up process may have other adverse
effects (e.g. burning garbage so it doesn't pile up in a landfill...or
"she swallowed the spider to catch the fly" and we all know what that led
to...) Any guesses about what other pollutants hundreds of high-flying planes
might spew out, and what effects they'd have that we'd discover in 10 or 20
years? Most often, I think we're better off going to some trouble not
to make the mess in the first place.
Having said that, I don't think it's silly to consider such ideas, especially
to address damage that we've already done, or to counter damage that's out
of our control (e.g., if China, Brazil, and India all insisted on large scale
production of CFCs).
Lorin
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From: KAT <MEC038%edu.UK...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: why to vote for Brown
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 20 Mar 1992 15:28:00 EST from <GU091GXR@ITHACA>
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From: GU09...@ITHACA.BITNET
> 2. He's not Clinton.
> Can anyone really imagine Clinton a
> s President? Besides, the scandals will blow wide open once
> he's running directly against Bush. Who wants a preesident
> with little respect for women (evidenced by affairs) and
> all sorts of shady deals coming up every few days? .......
> --G. Racz
Oh, come on! He doesn't respect women because he ALLEGEDLY had
an affair? I admit this in not as off base as Jay saying Dahmer
is a role model for gays but you are getting close.
Using this type of careless logic, I can say he has more respect
for women because he is paying attention to two women rather than
the usual one. :-)
But seriously having one affair is not indication of disrespect for
women in general. You might say it is disrespect for his wife, or
that Clinton is not faithful to his word (vows). Even that is between
the man and the wife and the wife in this case is not complaining.
By no means am I saying that the alleged affair is not damaging
to Clinton, but please call it what it is and don't sensationalize it
by rhetoric such as he does not respect women.
--KAT
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From: LUCEYCA <LUCEYCA%bitnet....@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Cognitive Dissonance
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
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From: NAME: Carol Lucey
FUNC: APPLIED SCI & MATH
TEL: (716)665-3793 <LUCEY, CAROL AT A1 AT JCCV03>
To: IN%"POLITICS@OHSTVMA"@MRGATE@JCCW22
I had a major interaction with media manipulation today. I went
to the Buffalo Presidential Forum, at which Larry Agran, Bill Clinton
Gene McCarthy and Jerry Brown were featured speakers. The event
was somewhat bittersweet for me, because of Tsongas' withdrawal.
Nevertheless, I went with the intention to work hard to transfer
my allegiance to one of the other Democrats.
Jerry's guerilla warriors had done a good job of packing the house.
All the candidates got a good reception, but when Jerry was
introduced there was pandemonium. His every answer was greeted with
a huge outburst of support from the floor. The other candidate
who was particularly well received was Gene McCarthy, who has not
lost the classy wit and intellect that some of us who worked for
him in'68 remembered. Since I had to miss Tsongas, I was grateful
at least for McCarthy.
Here's what amazed me: when I got home, I flipped on CNN to see what
they said about Jerry's ambush of Clinton in Buffalo. Exactly nothing! The
audience reactions were entirely missing from the usual Brown-Clinton
10 second exchanges that made the news spot. Furthermore, they didn't do
much with the debate at all, but featured instead a story about Clinton
s poll ratings vis a vis Bush and the endorsement of that well-known group
of N.Y. State hacks NYSUT (the local AFT organization). In any event,
I believe after today that we have seen the last Brown-Clinton debate.
Has anybody else heard anything about Tsongas having trouble shutting
down his organization? I understand there is now a group which has
started an 800 number on his behalf!
Carol
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From: "John D. Hopkins" <JHOPKINS%edu.UGA....@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Clinton's running mate
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> With one southerner on the ticket (Clinton), you can't have Gore. Clinton
> will have to go to the northeast or the west. DJG
Agreed. He'll probably ask Cuomo. And Cuomo will tell him to go to hell.
He ought to consider Kerrey or maybe Bradley. I would like to see him pick
Tsongas, but I don't think he will (and I think Paul would be insulted).
If he wants help cruising for chicks in D.C., he could pick Gary Hart (who
also happens to be from the west and has foreign policy expertise).
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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1992 12:15:36 EDT
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From: Lorin Kusmin <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Biology and Ethics
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 19 Mar 1992 10:38:00 EST from <Richard_A_FYFE@UMAI
L.UMD.EDU>
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On Thu, 19 Mar 1992 10:38:00 EST rf35 said:
>Greetings:
>
> First, nothing is strictly "biologically determined."
>Put a zygote in a vacuum and it will blow apart. Create an en-
>vironment without a zygote and you'll still get nothing (well,
>maybe if you want to wait around for a few hundred million years
>the interaction of chemicals in a lifeless environment will pro-
>duce life, but I assume this is not what we are talking about,)
>All of our properties are caused by an interaction between our
>genetic make-up and the environment in which that genetic package
>exists. Any claim that something is 'caused by' one independent
>of the other is simply false.
>
> Richard A. Fyfe
> rf...@umail.umd.edu
Fair enough, Richard, but isn't this a bit of a straw man? I think it's
more reasonable to translate, say, the statement "sexual preference is
genetically determined" into "nearly all of the variation in sexual
preference among human beings can be accounted for by differences in
genes." Which may well be false - I suspect that it is - but it isn't absurd.
To put it another way, if I said "eye color in human beings is biologically
determined" or "whether you learn to speak English or Spanish as a child
(assuming that you learn to speak at all) is determined by your environment"
would you make the same point? The question at hand was whether
sexual preference
more like eye color, or more like which language you speak, or more like
how tall you are, which reflects both genes and the (nutritional) environment
in which you developed.
Well, I shouldn't say "the question". I think you accurately pointed out the
other day that the question of whether or not there is anything "wrong" with
acting on a sexual preference is quite distinct from where that preference
came from.
I don't remember who said it, but thanks to the person who pointed
out that Jay's rationale for being free not to hire someone gay, if it
was valid, would also imply that he was free not to hire someone who was
divorced, or who admitted to using birth control, or...I hadn't thought
about it this way.
(I'm have to admit that I'm still not sure where the
line is or should be between relationships that are personal and those that
are subject to anti-discrimination laws. If Mr. X doesn't want to go into
partnership with me in a new business because I'm of Jewish origin, well, I
don't think the law should force him to. If Mr. X is a loan officer at a
bank and denies me a loan for the same reason, that seems (to me) pretty
clearly objectionable. If Mr. X is one of three partners in a small law firm,
and I'm applying for a job there in which I would be working with him most of
the time....? Does anyone have comments on either what the law says, or what
principles *should* determine when we can go to court and when we can only say
"What a jerk!")
BTW, Carolyn and Amycat and others - well, I gather that you were mostly
upset with Jay, but I want to express my regret if any of you also felt
depersonalized by any of my postings on homosexuality. I tend to enjoy
looking at issues very analytically, which doesn't mean I don't care about
about the people involved. My postings on the abortion issue were also,
as I recall, pretty analytical, and there are women whom I'm close to who
have had abortions. (There is no on equally close to me who is gay, but I
do know people who are, including the man who currently shares my apartment.)
Anyway, feel free to let me know if I give offense, or make you uncomfortable.
Lorin
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From: QUERYPF <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Discrimination against southpaws...
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 18 Mar 1992 10:05:46 -0500 from <sc...@KRONOS.COM>
Sender: POLI...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA
On Wed, 18 Mar 1992 10:05:46 -0500 Scott Riegelhaupt-Herzig said:
>
>The fact is that left-handed people have faced discrimination, at time
>as violent and from the same quarters as those who harrass gays.
>Left-handed people were thought to be servants of Satan and were
>avoided and persecuted by the Church. As recently as my father's
>generation, children were forced by school systems and parents to turn
>from their left-handedness. When I was in elementary school, one
>teacher of mine tried to convert me (although it was a rogue effort,
>one without any official sanction from the school).
>
>Things in society are oriented for the right-handed; scissors are
>generally for right-handed people, manual pencil sharpeners,
>appliances, notebooks, et.al.
>
>I agree that what gays face are an order of magnitude greater than
>what lefties see but that doesn't mean that we southpaws meet the
>world on a level playing field either.
>
>
>Scott P. Riegelhaupt-Herzig sc...@kronos.com
Good post.
Actually, the analogies between homosexuality and left-handedness do seem
kind of striking, in some respects, right up to the difficulty of
"explaining" either.
But I have to admit that I haven't faced any
discrimination as a southpaw myself...except that I wish there were
more smear-proof pens on the market.
Lorin
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From: ANDREW ALLEN <E7L8ALL%bitnet....@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Reply to Jay regarding flatulence
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
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>>Tax Policy
>>Well, since this is a pie in the sky sort of thing anyway; seeing as neither
>>Jay nor I is likely to become elected to an office wherein we might actually
>>have any sort of direction of the federal government. (I have murky past
>>syndrome; I'm sure Jay has an excuse for not running for president, too B))
>As the spokesman for the Shadow Government, I may have more influence
>than you think. A great man from Mass. once said that ideas are more
>important than people.
So you are asserting as George Meany did when he was asked why he did not
run for president, that you do not wish to diminish your standing and power?
>>I would exempt the first $8,000. of income per dependent per taxpayer
>>up to 12 dependents on an individual income. In other words in a family
>>of 4 dependent upon one income the first $32,000. would be exempt.
>>Everything over that would be taxed at a flat rate of 15%
>>(Actually what is important here is not the actual rate, that can be adjusted,
>>what is important is that it shifts the tax burden off of the middle and
>>lower classes.)
>Then the rate will be about 35-40%, which will destroy the middle class.
>You seem to forget that the majority of the revenue in the status
>quo is paid by the top 1%. You are going to decrease their share!!!
No, I said it would be 15%, and at that it would be less for lower incomes;
this was a pie in the sky sort of proposal, the flat tax proposal has different
rules than the ones that conservative ideologues have been promoting.
The beauty of it is that it is based on a simple system of accounting which
allows corporate income to be taxed in the same way that regular folks income
is; with virtually no deductions.
BTW- can anyone *really* explain why a flat tax is bad for the lower and
middle classes?
>Thanks, on behalf of the rich, but you would also destroy the economy, which
>we don't like, so no thanks.
>Andy, i understand the appeal of the flat tax. But it is simply bad economic
>policy. It places a tremendous burden on the poor and middle class.
Trust me Jay, if the proposal I laid out were enacted more or less the way
that I described it the rich would be thanking me with gratuities in the
form of bullets. B)
>Chicago is known for economics, and I am NOT a student of that department
>(only took one class in developmental economics). But you
>only need high school economics to understand.
>If you believe that the rich are not paying their share, then increase
>the rate they pay. Be careful, however: the Laffer (sp?) curve was
>proven by Reagan and you may remember how well the luxury tax worked.
Jay, it's not "the rich" that I am after exactly, it is the activities
that they participate in which use or remove value from the economy, which
I want to tax adequately. I don't want to "opress" them by taxing them
any more than anybody else or remove incentive for them to invest; however,
I don't want to pay them to give people jobs.
>Most of what you would call "corporate deductions" (and we all know how
>evil corporations are) are actually investment incentives. The rest
>should go.
Come on now Jay, when Lee Iacocca can't sell his private residence for as
much as he would like to get for it and he has Chrysler buy it from him
at an inflated value; Chrysler should be able to write that off?
>for instance:
>>Perks for mangement will be completely undeductable and will be taxed at
>>their fair market value as income for management personnel.
>Thats fine, and congress has tried to do this and failed. But, these
>kind of expenditures go toward business compeditiveness, not lost tax
>revenue.
Oh, I see businesses are more competitive when their executives are all
sloshed at lunchtime; sounds good to me! B)
>>>6)Triple tax on cigaretts and alcohol.
>>Nope; no more sin taxes, any tax of this sort will have to be justified
>>as a "user fee," supporting government services that *directly* go to
>>a related cause.
>AAARRRGGG!!!!!!
>What do you call Medicare!!!!!!
>Damn it all to hell, why must I pay for their habits!?!
Jay, are you on a low cholesterol, low fat diet? Do you participate in a
regular regimen of excercise, were you born free of defects and
predispositions to any expensive disease? I bet that *YOU* are the
reason that my health insurance keeps going up! B)
>>>7)Leagize marijuana, prostitution, and sports gambeling, and
>>>tax at a simmilar rate. I'd estimate, after the cost of
>>>reasonable regulation, a gain of about $90 Bill
>>Once again income from these taxes would go directly to benefits for
>>the payers; such as regular free health care/health certification for
>>prostitutes or the development of really tasty health food munchies
>>for dope smokers (oops, got carried away there B)).
>These things, as well as the other sin taxes,
>are the root of all our societal problems (If you went to church,
>you would know that). So, wen we tax prosetution, we are funding
>the negative effect it has on our society (broken homes and all).
But Jay," The want of money is the root of all evil."
Need I say more? B)
>Jay Steven Sultan Internet: su...@quads.uchicago.edu
>University of Chicago
-other Andy
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From: Lorin Kusmin <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Determinants of sexual preference
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
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>
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KAT,
An interesting "model" of how sexual preferences might be formed. It seems
unlikely to me that a simple algebraic equation would fit something so
complicated, but I think in spirit it seems plausible.
However - as you noted, any "model" like this would seem to imply that the
percentage of the population that is gay would vary in different societies.
Seems to me that I've read the assertion that the 10% figure is pretty
constant - which, if true, would imply that it is mostly a gene-thing
(or else that *all* the cultures studied have persuaded nearly all
who are flexible to live "straight" lives). But I don't know if that
universal 10% is based on credible evidence, or if it's just a factoid.
Lorin
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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1992 15:30:33 EDT
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From: Lorin Kusmin <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Why to NOT vote for Tsongas
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 18 Mar 1992 11:57:06 -0800 from <an...@SAIL.STANFOR
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On Wed, 18 Mar 1992 11:57:06 -0800 Andy Freeman said:
>
>Insurance companies don't produce benefits, they merely redistribute
>money (and take a cut for doing so). Those that can accurately
>predict risks, and charge accordingly, grab market share from those
>that don't, because customers don't like to pay subsidies. If the
>legal system changes so that low risk folks are forced to choose
>between paying for high risk folks or going bare, they'll go bare....
>
>
1) This depends on how many high risk folks there are, and how risk-averse
everyone else is. I think most of those folks who have insurance now
would pay a 10 or 20 percent premium over their expected medical care
costs, rather than try to self-insure/go bare. A 100% premium, maybe
not.
2) But you are right, insurers will avoid carrying risky people - e.g. folks
who are already sick - if they can, and healthier individuals will avoid
subsidizing them if they can. What you see in the Federal government,
where insurers cannot turn anyone down, is that most insurers offer
relatively modest protection at a reasonable price, but policies which
are more generous, especially for mental health benefits, are *much*
more expensive. Healthy people choose the low-cost policies, while
if sick people do choose the more comprehensive policies, they get
no subsidy from the healthy for the extra benefits.
What all of this means is that, if you believe everyone is entitled
to a certain level of health care, then we should either form them into
large groups that mix high and low-risk individuals, and compel insurers
who want the business to cover them all....or else go whole-hog and
legislate national health insurance covering everybody. If you try
to make insurers cover sick or other high-risk people as individuals,
they will do whatever they can to discourage those people from signing
on.
Of course, if you are sure that you or someone close to you will never
fall into the "excludable" category, and you think that the folks who
do are responsible for whatever happens to them, because after all if
they had led perfect lives, they probably wouldn't have a health
problem...or if you think Medicaid does a great job of taking care of
folks under these conditions...well, then you won't see much point in
trying to make sure that the insurance umbrella covers everyone.
Well, it's late in the day, and there are probably a couple of caveats
that I've left out. But I guess I'll post this anyway (and try to
fill in the weak spots after andy and jay help me locate them by
shooting at them )
Lorin
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From: Lorin Kusmin <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Ozone layer
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Good point, Tim. But that still leaves open the broader issue of
whether it makes sense to intervene actively in the environment to
compensate for damage we've done - e.g., using lasers to "zap" CFCs
(no, I don't know what they turn into when zapped) or floating white
styrofoam pellets on a large chunk of ocean to reflect sunlight back
into space to reduce global warming (no, it doesn't sound like a good
idea to me, but it has been suggested.)
Lorin
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From: Lorin Kusmin <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Clinton's running mate
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
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P.S. To Kerry - I'm skeptical about Rockefeller or Gore - two white male
Southerners on one ticket? I know WV isn't exactly South, and Rockefeller
isn't exactly a native, but still...
Lorin
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From: ANDREW ALLEN <E7L8ALL%bitnet....@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Public Campaign Funding
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
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>I am opposed to public funding that discriminates on any basis other
>than "is the candidate on the ballot", and then only if there are no
>real ballot access restrictions, which isn't true now. Any other
>procedure is just saying that govt should help successful candidates,
>which is worse than making them rely on private support.
Which is fine by me; I want the criteria to be "is the candidate on the
ballot." The only access restriction that I would have (other than meeting
the constitutional age/native origin status) is the requirement that the
candidate collect a certain number of (valid) voter's signatures.
>In the case of primary campaign funding, party choice should have no
>effect. In other words, if the sultan party has 10 candidates and
>the demos just two, each of the sultans get as much public money as
>each of the demos. I think that some equitable procedure should
>be established for parties that use means other than primaries
>to select candidates and I'm willing to be persuaded that no public
>funds should be available for primaries on the theory that party
>choices are "private".
There should be no public funding of primary elections unless all
organised parties have access to them.
>BTW - If you think that big donors can't give the large amounts
>through small donations, you're on great drugs. Small donations can't
>have significant reporting requirements attached; exploitation of that
>fact is one way that good fundraisers get the big bucks.
One might consider controlling what the donations can be spent on; one might
also disallow them from buying TV time, since "we" "own" the airwaves, we
might demand that media outlets provide a certain amount of time for the
airing of public debates in trade for our allowing them to operate their
concessions.
>Oh, and precisely why is my $1k donation "worse" than my spending 50
>hours working for the candidate? (Remember, I earned that money
>working, so ....) Instead of giving the campaign money, what if I
>hire a worker for it?
I think that it is possible to disallow companies from donating personnel
to a campaign. (Though I suppose fairly hard to police; I guess we'd have
to find a suitable deterrent, let's see if the company is caught they
wouldn't receive gov't contracts, how about that?)
-andy
-other Andy
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From: ANDREW ALLEN <E7L8ALL%bitnet....@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: other Andy proposes a really flat tax
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>I don't see why advertising is seen as significantly different than
>coke for a blast furnace.
It's deceptively simple, I know, but the coke for the blast furnace
is used to *make* the product; you can't have a product without it.
The product exists without *advertisement*.
>If you can't tell your customers about your
>product and convince them to buy it, you might as well not produce.
I didn't say that you *couldn't* advertize; just that it was not something
that you could write off.
>Aside: We don't necessarily need a tax policy, we only need a way to
>fund govt activities. Since the cost of compliance with tax policy is
>so high, perhaps we ought to look to alternatives.
The cost of compliance is one of the reasons why I wanted to make the
tax code simpler, to make it less likely that fraud would occur since
it would be so easy to detect.
>-andy
-other Andy
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From: LAURA ANNELIESE LORSON
<ANNELIES%bitnet....@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: rhodes scholars i'd vote for
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
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possible other rhodes vp candidates who might find widespread appeal:
kris kristofferson
shauna mc gee (a friend of mine, now working for a major multinational but who
still gets to wear cool clothes)
richard williamson (a judge in kentucky)
um, possible running mates was the question on the floor, i believe.
i'd say bradley might bite, but probably not. he wants the whole cookie jar,
unsullied, in 1996. no way, no day on the cuomo candidacy.
rockefeller is an okay guess. whoever suggested paul simon, i must tell you
that i am still getting a kick out of that. bentsen, maybe. gephardt, maybe.
i don't know. i don't much care. whatever.
i was thinking today about pat buchanan, and was wondering:
how did pat get away with having so much credibility for so long? the reason
he became not-a-threat to george was because george finally started treating him
like he was a joke. it's as if the media woke up one morning and said,
"hey, hang on a second! pat hasn't actually won *anything* yet, has he?"
i guess he doesn't water the liquor at those swanky washington npr and pbs
commentator parties he must throw in order to keep such a devoted retinue of
onlookers.
is anything happening overseas?
* * *anneliese "gee, no, i'm going to duluth for
spring holiday" l.
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From: Lorin Kusmin <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Primary Guesses vs. Actual Results
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The following is a comparison of the Primary guesses I had received
by yesterday with the "nearly complete" results available as of late
this morning from the Washington Post recorded news line. I've also
provided some analysis of and commentary on our performance.
The best individual guesses are marked with an asterisk
Illinois - Democrats
Clinton Tsongas Brown LaRouche Other/Uncommitted
Neil Covey 55 28 15* 2 (other)
Travis Kidd 65 30 5
Lorin Kusmin 49 28 14 0 9 (other/unc)
V.M. Smith 51* 29 18 le 3
J. Sullivan 45 30 25
Jay S. Sultan 54 26* 12 4
Range 45-65 26-30 5-25
Median 52.5 28.5 14.5
Mean 53.2 28.5 14.8
Actual 52 26 15
Our average forecast came very close; I think the results were also
pretty close to what polls were showing. Individually, 4 of the six
of us (Neil, Valentine, Jay and myself) were close, but none of us
did as well as the average forecast.
Michigan - Democrats
Clinton Tsongas Brown Other Uncommitted
Neil Covey 50 18* 21 11
Travis Kidd less than 10 points between 1st and 3rd place finisher
Lorin Kusmin 42 21 28* 9 (other/uncommitted)
V.M. Smith 49* 20 28*
J. Sullivan 39 20 35 6
Jay S. Sultan 60 20 15
Range 39-60 18-21 15-35
Median 49 20 28
Mean 48 19.8 25.4
Actual 49 18 27 5
Here again, on average we did very well, correctly extrapolating
the rise in Brown support that showed up in late polls.
If Travis had made a point forecast, however, we would have
done less well. As for individual forecasts, Valentine and Neil
did best, with Valentine coming just as close as the average forecast.
Illinois - Republicans
Bush Buchanan Duke Other/Uncommitted
Neil Covey 69 24 4
Travis Kidd 75* 24-25* 1 if on ballot
Lorin Kusmin 68 25 2
V.M. Smith 63 31 le 3
J. Sullivan no GOP guesses
Jay S. Sultan 65 30
Range 63-75 24-31
Median 68 25
Mean 68 27
Actual 76 22
Not so good here - except for Travis, we all overestimated Buchanan.
Michigan - Republicans
Bush Buchanan Duke Other/Uncommitted
Neil Covey 72* 24* 2 2 other
Travis Kidd 53 45-47 2 if on ballot
Lorin Kusmin 58 34 4 4 other/uncommitted*
V.M. Smith 55 37 le 3*
J. Sullivan No GOP guesses
Jay S. Sultan 52 40
Range 52-72 24-47
Median 55 37
Mean 58 36.4
Actual 67 25 3 5 uncommitted
Here again, most of us overestimated Buchanan; only Neil came
fairly close.
Overall, Neil's guesses came closest - for ten candidate-percentage of
vote pairs, his average error was less than 3%. Congratulations, Neil,
you win this week's trophy. (Of course, it's virtual:
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
v POLITICS CUP v
v v March 17, 1992 v v
v v N. Covey v v
v v v v
v v v v
v v
v v
v v
v v v
v
v
v
v
vvvvvvvvvvv )
The median forecast was off by an average of just over 4 percentage
points, calculated over 10 percentage-candidate pairs, and Neil's
guesses were more accurate than the median guess for six of those 10
pairs.
Well, there you have it.
BTW, I agree with Jay, the Congressional primary results were much more
startling. What happened to Dixon? I can't remember when an incumbent
Senator not tarred by major scandal got less than 40% of the primary vote.
Lorin
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From: "John D. Hopkins" <JHOPKINS%edu.UGA....@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Vegetarianism
Comments: To: POLI...@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
Sender: POLI...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA
> Today is the National Meat Out. Here are facts supporting the political
> arguments behind the vegetarian movement. Give up meat for a day to
> show your support and for the following reasons:
You forgot to mention the effect of cow flatulence on global warming.
> 1. Hunger
> 29 million people die every year of malnutrition. If Americans
> reduced their meat intake by 10%, 60 million more people could
> be fed.
> 80% of corn grown in the US is eaten by livestock
> 90% of protein is wasted by cycling it through livestock
> 16 pounds of grain and soybean are required to produce one pound
> of beef
This assumes that the grain that all those stupid cows are eating would be
sent to the hungry if the cows didn't eat it. That is untrue. There is
already plenty of surplus food for everyone, but for political and economic
reasons it never gets to those who need it. Avoiding meat won't change that.
> 2. Natural resources
> more than half of all water used in livestock production in the US
> is in livestock production
> **Years the world's oil reserves would last if every human ate a
> meat centered diet:13
> **Years oil reserves would last if humans no longer ate meat:260
> 33% of US raw materials are used in livestock production
I don't follow the oil reserve argument at all. It seems to imply that
everyone who drives a gas-guzzling car is driving to McDonald's. Maybe
someone can elaborate on this argument?? As for the water, I question
whether stopping giving that water to cows would really help anybody.
> 3. Environment
> 300 million pounds of meat imported to U.S annually from Central
and
> South America
> 55 Sq. feet of tropical rainforest consumed in every quarter pound
of
> rainforest beef
Granted, we need to do something about rainforest destruction. This is
probably your best argument. However, the U.S. should do what it can to
help the economies of South American countries so that they can survive by
doing something other than plundering their natural resources. Keep in mind
that those South American countries NEED the money they get from those
exports. Don't expect those exports to stop until there is an economic
alternative for those folks.
> Support the vegetarian movement!
I certainly don't mean to slam the veggies. There are some very good
reasons to reduce meat intake and eat your vegetables like your mother
always told you. I think the best reasons are for personal health and the
effect on the U.S. economy of reduced heath-care costs if we all took a
little better care of ourselves.
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From: GU091GXR <GU091GXR%bitnet...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: A tithe of homosexuals
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
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>As I have said before, I do not beliefe the 10% figure. It is just beyond
>reason. Blacks are only 16% of america, and look at all the attention the
>receive and how we address their problems.
>If there was really 10%, then there would never be any anti-gay violence and
>they would not appear to be such a persecuted minority. 10% is huge for a
>mninority.
1. The 10% is based on scientific psychological research. Have you ever
heard of the Kinsey scale? According to this, only 10% of the
population is either *completely* heterosexual or completely
homosexual. This means the majority are a mixture of both,
even if they don't realize it themselves.
2. Blacks are 16%, and look at how their problems are ignored much of
the time. And there is LOTS of anti-black violence. So 10%
homosexual population is not too large for discrimination.
--G. Racz
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From: Loomis Mayfield <TI0LFM1%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Braun campaign in Illinois
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
Sender: POLI...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA
THE CAROL MOSELEY BRAUN CAMPAIGN DESPARATELY NEEDS YOUR HELP.
>Reposted from: daniel breslau <br...@MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>
>
>Last night Carol Moseley Braun won the Illinois Democratic
>primary for U.S. Senate, beating incumbent Alan Dixon, one
>of the most right-wing Democrats in the Senate, who
>supported the Clarence Thomas nomination and most of the
>Reagan-Bush agenda. If you aren't from Illinois or Cook
>County or Chicago, you probably haven't heard of Carol
>Moseley Braun. That will soon change.
>
>If she wins the general election in November, Braun will
>become the first African-American woman to serve in the U.S.
>Senate. She will also immediately be one of the most
>progressive voices there. She is a strong and outspoken
>supporter of reproductive rights, gay and lesbian rights,
>disarmament, to name a few. During the campaign, she
>distinguished herself from her well-funded opponents by
>sticking to "substance over sound-bites," arguing clearly
>and unwaveringly for a single payor national health
>insurance plan, and offering detailed proposals for
>reinvesting defense funds in the inner city, job training,
>and national infrastructure.
The campaign desparately needs volunteers throughout the state.
They also need $$$_MONEY_$$$ for the fall campaign against a rich,
well funded candidate, Richard Williamson, who has worked in the
Reagan and Bush administrations and has served as head of the
American Conservative Union. Out of state groups like the Republican
Senate Campaign Committee have already promised her opponent the
maximum they are allowed to give, over $900,000 dollars. The
Democratic counterpart is still "considering" how much they will
give her.
CALL to volunteer: (312)-541-9292.
SEND checks to: BRAUN FOR U.S. SENATE
36 WEST RANDOLPH
5TH FLOOR
CHICAGO, ILL 60601
***********************************************
Loomis Mayfield - TI0LFM1@NIU (BITNET ADDRESS)
(815) 753-2301
Social Science Research Institute
Northern Illinois University
DeKalb, IL 60115 USA
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From: Lorin Kusmin <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Primary Results followup
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
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Apologies.
Primary results in the paper today - presumably more complete than
those I sent out yesterday - change the picture slightly on the
Democratic side. I'm not going to redo my whole analysis of our
performance, but our record in forecasting looks slightly
worse with the latest numbers, and Neil still did best (with the revised
numbers, his Michigan-Clinton forecast is now #1).
New numbers, plus selected lines from earlier post, follow.
Illinois - Democrats
Clinton Tsongas Brown LaRouche Other/Uncommitted
Median 52.5 28.5 14.5
Mean 53.2 28.5 14.8
Actual 52 26 15
Actual (revised)51 26 15 5 uncommitted
Michigan - Democrats
Clinton Tsongas Brown Other Uncommitted
Neil Covey 50* 18* 21 11
V.M. Smith 49 20 28*
Median 49 20 28
Mean 48 19.8 25.4
Actual 49 18 27 5
Actual(revised)51 17 26 5
If the numbers change again, I promise not to tell you about it.
Lorin
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From: Lorin Kusmin <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Political ads
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 18 Mar 1992 12:09:41 -0800 from <an...@SAIL.STANFOR
D.EDU>
Sender: POLI...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA
About this business of 30-second spots and 30 minute speeches, I would
guess that the reason that only loons buy the 30-minute blocks of time
is that only loons think that many voters are going to tune in for 30
minutes just to listen to them. The mainstream politicians, or at least
their staffers, are smart enough to know that if you want voters to hear you,
you've gotta catch them in the middle of the Cosby Show and get your
message out before they leave the room to make popcorn...
Cynically yours,
Lorin
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From: GU091GXR <GU091GXR%bitnet...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Ozone stuff
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
Sender: POLI...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA
About this ozone problem:
>address it. Are you saying that we cannot make enough smog? As a long term
>problem, I suspect it is much harder to really mess anything up than people
>suspect - the earth has this way of healing itself (Gaia - call your office).
Yes, ozone is in smog in the cities. But ozone is an unstable su ance
and breaks down before it reaches the stratosphere, where it filters
out UV rays. But I thought this had already been mentioned.
Environmentalists are not extremists. If you continue to do nothing,
the earth will never renew itself.
--G. Racz
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From: Lorin Kusmin <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Tsongas out?
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According to AP News at 130 pm, Tsongas is planning to "suspend" his
campaign, but does not plan to release his delegates, and he "retains an
interest in being the nominee." He's supposed to talk to reporters about
3 o'clock. If the AP report is accurate, I guess what he's saying is
"I'm broke and I'm going home now, but if Bill lets you down and you
want me back, I'll be around." Hhmm!
Story on Clinton in the LA Times today commented on Clinton's energy and
determination - contrasted him with Mondale and Dukakis, who didn't act as
if they were sure they wanted to be President. The suggestion was that
Clinton was more in the mold of a Kennedy or Johnson.
Lorin
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From: GU091GXR <GU091GXR%bitnet...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Cognitive Dissonance
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>Here's what amazed me: when I got home, I flipped on CNN to see what
>they said about Jerry's ambush of Clinton in Buffalo. Exactly nothing! The
>audience reactions were entirely missing from the usual Brown-Clinton
>10 second exchanges that made the news spot. Furthermore, they didn't do
>much with the debate at all, but featured instead a story about Clinton
>s poll ratings vis a vis Bush and the endorsement of that well-known group
>of N.Y. State hacks NYSUT (the local AFT organization). In any event,
>I believe after today that we have seen the last Brown-Clinton debate.
Yet another example of how the press distorts the truth. They've
already decided that Clinton is going to be the Democratic nominee,
so they (ESPECIALLY CNN) refuse to take anyone else seriously.
Besides, CNN is useless for anything besides the latest reports on
weather disasters. No analysis whatsoever. McStation.
I'm not familiar with NYSUT. Could you tell what it stands for/
what they do? Thanks.
>Carol
--Gabe
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From: "James W. Evans" <MM12%bitnet...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: PC advocate=devils advocate
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
Sender: POLI...@edu.ohio-state.acs.ohstvma
Why is it that all these homosexuals are running around trying to
instill this sense of self righteousness and justify what their doing
is "OK." Jay points out that the homosexual voice comes straight from
the PC community. And why is it that the PC community is always
contradicting themselves.Their all up in arms about this movie
"bashing" gay/lesbians, but yet they screem about censorship and
point to their 1st amendment tatoo. And where did this term "gay
bashing" come from. The only gay bashing that I see is on the bathroom
walls right next to several repulsive homosexual refrenses. It doesn't
matter how you try to justify homosexuallity, the fact remains that
reproductivly speeking, it is completely wrong! Now I know that some of
you are going to screem about this last statement, but heterosexuality
will prevail until the end of time, because homosexuals would soon
destroy life as we know it.
J. Evans
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Comments: Resent-From: "Generally Regarded AS Safe (GRASS)"
<T9...@SDSUMUS.BITNET>
Comments: Originally-From: DITTM...@p9955.wlu.edu
From: "Generally Regarded AS Safe (GRASS)"
<T9AA%BITNET....@EDU.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Email contact with Congress
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
Sender: POLI...@edu.ohio-state.acs.ohstvma
Get a load of this!
Dave
t9...@sdsumus.bitnet
------------------------------- Original Message -------------------------------
Though I am no longer on the ACTIV list one of the first questions I asked
when I originally joined in about a year ago was "are there e-mail addresses
for congressional representatives and others." I got a message today from
James P. Love in Princeton that Charlie Rose, Chairman of the House Administra-
tion Committee has indicated that the HOR will have full Internet-addresable
email addresses by next year. No lists yet, but it sounds like we might get
additional access to our reps. If you have any comments or questions, I'd
appreciate hearing from you off-list. Hope this helps.
Scott Dittman
dittm...@p9955.wlu.edu
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From: KAT <MEC038%edu.UK...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: PC advocate=devils advocate
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 21 Mar 1992 16:53:45 EST from <MM12@NMUMUS>
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From: "James W. Evans" <MM...@NMUMUS.BITNET>
> ........................................................... It doesn't
> matter how you try to justify homosexuallity, the fact remains that
> reproductivly speeking, it is completely wrong! Now I know that some of
> you are going to screem about this last statement, but heterosexuality
> will prevail until the end of time, because homosexuals would soon
> destroy life as we know it.
> J. Evans
If "homosexuals will soon destroy life as we know it," then how could
you claim that "...but heterosexuality will prevail until the end of time?"
And not only you are saying this two phrases in the same paragraph but
in the same sentence back to back.
What do you have in mind, gas chambers?
Jay, if you can't see how wrong you are by listening to us, you
should be easily convinced by listening to those who are gonna write
you in for president.
--KAT
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From: Lorin Kusmin <ARRBLK%bitne...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Clinton's running mate
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From: "Carl A. Lahetta" <U952020%BITNET....@EDU.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: A Tithe - Bad Research
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
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In all actuality the 10% figure is inaccurate. The study cited to support
this "finding" was not up to snuff in its design and the way it was conducted.
Most flaws in the study are overlooked. If the study was put to the same
standards as other test are, it would not pass with flying colors. So, the 10%
guesstimate is wrong and should be lower by 4 or 5 percent at least.
Carl------+
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From: "Edmund Ryan KL62@MARISTB"
<KL62%BITNET....@EDU.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
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Greetings,
I was a fan of H. Ross Perot for his businessman acumen, but
these are the reasons I'm not voting for him (i.e. write his name
in)
- Perot supports Lloyd Bentsen.
- Lloyd Bentsen wants to tax the rich so there won't be any rich
people around.
- Assholic way he says he wants to run for president.
I shall clarify my third point:
He probably loves being a businessman. I don't know why he's
acting like the presidency is a job he doesn't like. It's the
most powerful administrative position in the country (and
possibly in the world). It has all of the characteristics of any
C.E.O. I, personally, would love to be president to fix this
country, but alas, I don't have the money, time, experience,
public exposure, etc. Perot is acting like a gracious god stating
that his supporters must follow thru a number of obsequious
rituals to get him to accept the position of the presidency (as
if he's already been elected). He's got one of the biggest egos
I've seen in any potential politician. [Only N.Y.S. Governor
Cuomo has a bigger ego!] He wants to the president, but he's just
waiting right to the end to save money, and Perot doesn't have to
go to all of the debates. Perot doesn't have the guts to be
president. He wants to be handed it as an invitation and
gracefully walk into the white house with the fawning supporters
running every little errand for him.
Futhermore, Perot has never offered any solutions to all of
the problems he explains in his fable-like metaphors. If he has
had anything to offer as sort of a vision, he would stated it
long ago, and probably he would run long ago. Perot has no vision
and no guts. He just wants to criticize the president and remain
the national spotlight as long as possible. Perot will continue
to do that by appearing on the numerous talk shows with requests
by the hosts for him to run for president with him always
declining or saying: "It's too tough for me, but I'll do it if
you want me to." This guy has hubris! Not only does he believe he
will win in a landslide, he believes he will the best president
this nation has ever had or be the best out of the person
currently running for president.
If you're a Perot supporter, I guess you've been duped.
Also, here is his campaign song:
(Set to the beat of one my favorite songs of last month: "I'm too
sexy" from Right Said Fred.)
My ego is going to leave me!
I'm too inte*lligent for politics it hurts
And I'm too intelligent for debating
What do you think about that?
I'm a businessman and you know I mean,
And I don't really want to run for president
For president! Yeah! I don't want to really run,
For president! Yeah! For president!
But, I guess you all want me too,
So I guess I'll run for president.
Yeah! For president! Yeah! For president!
I'm too good to be president!
I don't really want to be president! Yeah!
I'm too intelligent for my public!
Oh my public! Oh, public, public!
I'm too intelligent for my public!
And I'm too intelligent for this song!
* End of Song *
Insightfully,
Ed Ryan
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From: Tim Johnson <PH408014%bitnet....@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Ozone layer
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>Good point, Tim. But that still leaves open the broader issue of
>whether it makes sense to intervene actively in the environment to
>compensate for damage we've done - e.g., using lasers to "zap" CFCs
>(no, I don't know what they turn into when zapped) or floating white
>styrofoam pellets on a large chunk of ocean to reflect sunlight back
>into space to reduce global warming (no, it doesn't sound like a good
>idea to me, but it has been suggested.)
> Lorin
Thanks, Lorin. But you pose that question in a way which
makes it sound like a philosophical issue. "Are we morally
obligated to correct environmental damage."
I'll leave that question for the philosophers. I intended
only to speak to issues of whether or not it was technically
feasible, or even useful to use certain tactics to correct
environmental damage.
Adding ozone is a pretty useless idea, I believe (though
I will stand corrected by someone with better credentials).
As I noted, it is a valuable and useful tactic to stop using
CFCs. Making tons of ozone is not a useful tactic.
As for styrofoam pellets - you should bear in mind that
ozone depletion and global warming are *different* issues.
Ozone blocks UV, CO2 and Methane and H2O block IR. Different
problems requiring radically different approaches.
-Tim
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From: Andrew MacRae <acm%COM...@EDU.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Biology and Ethics
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In article <POLITICS%9203191...@UCF1VM.BITNET>, PL43...@BROWNVM.BITNET
(Jamie) writes:
> Hmm. Well, Richard is certainly right about this, KAT.
> What language you speak is NOT strictly determined by your environment.
> There are languages that you could not speak, no matter what your
> environment, because of your genetic make up.
Sorry, but from what I have read and heard (admittedly limited) that
is not true. NPR had a story recently about a researcher who was looking
at why children of Chinese immigrants to the US can pronouce certain
sounds that their parents were unable to pronounce. Their theory is
that as early as a few months after birth, babys are impressed with certain
phonetic sounds, the sounds they hear in speach around them (and on radio
and tv.) If too much time goes by (perhaps a year) without being exposed
to certain phonetic sounds, the child will have a difficult time hearing
and repeating those sounds.
Anyway, their conclusion, born out by observations for many years by many
people, is that it is the environment of the child, early in life, that
detirmines the sounds they will be able to speak.
Andrew MacRae
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From: GU091GXR <GU091GXR%bitnet...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: why to vote for Brown
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
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1. The 13% flat tax.
Basically, get rid of the huge beaurocracy and the huge waste of
time involved in tax collection. Having a lower tax with
almost no loopholes simplifies the entire process. And it
gets rid of a lot of bickering over those loopholes.
2. He's not Clinton.
Can anyone really imagine Clinton a
s President? Besides, the scandals will blow wide open once
he's running directly against Bush. Who wants a preesident
with little respect for women (evidenced by affairs) and
all sorts of shady deals coming up every few days? Sure
none of them have been of scandal proportion yet, but
what about the next one? And what would he do during his
term as president?
3. His campaign
At least it's not business-as-usual. This country is in
serious need of election ferorm. Don't tell me that the
steady decrease in election participation (below 50% for the
first time in history in '88) is because of the candidates.
He's the only candidate in a major party who's not running
things along the standard lines.
--G. Racz
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From: "Edmund Ryan KL62@MARISTB"
<KL62%bitnet....@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Comments: To: POLI...@OHSTVMA.BITNET, 1995...@VUVAXCOM.BITNET
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In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of WED 18 MAR 1992 20:03:00 EST
Sender: POLI...@edu.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA
In response to my argument against term limits:
> >lets abolish term limits so we can elect Ronald Reagan again.
>
> blech.
> (sorry, just a gut reaction to visual stimulus)
>
> how about abolishing term limits, but not letting politicians serve 2
> consecutive terms? this would eliminate the incumbant advantage thing,
> and aid in keeping the balance of things from shifting too far in any
> particular direction, but allow someone who was really good to be able
> to come back. also, politicians would not feel pressured to campaign
> when they should be doing something more worthwhile, and there would be
> an incentive to make decisions that are good for the long term rather
> than the short term feel-good stuff that the present system encourages.
>
> brni
1 - How would we not let a politician serve more than 2 terms
for president but not codify that into law?
2 - What's wrong with a politician serving for 30 years in any
elected office?
If he or she is great politican(or more likely statesman),
What's wrong with electing him/her as many times as possible?
Virtually,
Ed
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From: Travis Kidd <TKIDD%BITNET....@EDU.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Important news on Illinios
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
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> "Mabye all good Baptists should start praying, tonight!"
> - Coach of Cambell U. basketball team, a 1 - 1,000,000,000 odds to win
> the basketball tournyment.
Oh--BTW--I live less than a mile from where Campbell won its spot in the
tournament.
I saw Alan Dixon's concession speech. He must be gay or something.
"Oh--I enjoyed EVERY GOLDEN MOMENT of my public life."
Please---give me a break. You Illinoisans(word?) actually elected this
guy???
-Travis
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From: Elizabeth Gilliam <bee%EDU.U...@EDU.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: needed: info on limitation of rights
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
Sender: POLI...@edu.ohio-state.acs.ohstvma
I am doing a paper on how our rights as guaranteed us in the Bill of
Rights are being limited or ignored.
I don't particularly need case names and dates (though that'd be great),
but I could use info on what state, and what year.
Basically, I am trying to narrow it down to the past five years.
If you can send me anything, I would be ever-so-grateful.
Note: I could use this straightaway, too.
thanks, Elizabeth
--
"Erst kommt das Brot, denn die Morale." -Brecht
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ b...@ms.uky.edu ~~~~~~~~~~ b...@ukma.bitnet ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Elizabeth A. Gilliam ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~Life is a whim of several billion cells to be you for a while.~~~~~~~~~~
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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1992 19:46:00 EST
Reply-To: Forum for the Discussion of Politics
<POLI...@EDU.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Original-Sender: Forum for the Discussion of Politics
<POLI...@EDU.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
From: GU091GXR <GU091GXR%BITNET...@EDU.OHIO-STATE.ACS.OHSTVMA>
Subject: Re: Campaign financing
To: Multiple recipients of list POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA>
Sender: POLI...@edu.ohio-state.acs.ohstvma
>Yes. But given the public's attitude towards Congresscritters spending public
>money on anything that appears to benefit the Congresscritters themselves, I
>don't see this happening real soon. Most folks don't seem to see that if
>public money doesn't pay for campaigns, private money will, and that the folks
>elected will be at least half-owned by the folks who paid their way.
Remember that the funds would also benefit the "Congresscritters"
opponents,, too. Besides, that would ensure that the Congresscritters
WOULD be owned entirely by those who pay the taxes, instead of a
combination of tax-payers(who pay their salary) and big businesses/
PACs (who provide the bulk of the money to keep them there).
>But maybe we can do more to force the broadcast media to provide free/cheap
>time to candidates as a licensing condition? In effect, a tax, but a tax
>on the media, so the man in the street wouldn't mind....That would do a lot
>to cut down campaign costs, yes?
An effective idea that would help, but I think people are more likely
to pay attention to those expensive 30 second prime time sound bites.
they're more commercially slick, which is what people are used to.
--G. Racz