Zendo 2
Michael Dediu
Well, I went back. I felt the need for some serious meditation to sort
out some things, and also to hear what Roshi Mel had to say in his
sermon/talk. I found him to be an intelligent guy from the last time.
So anyway they had 40 minutes Zazen mixed with Kihin (walking
meditation), breakfast, work periods starting a 6 and ending at 12. I
was hoping to get started early, but woke up at 3 or 4 with some
thoughts then went back to sleep and woke at 8:00 or so so I was at the
Center at 8:30, just in time for work period. The residents were
supposed to do the work, but a kind teacher saw me lounging on a bench
and asked me to help.
All the plum jobs such as washing dishes and sweeping the grounds had
been assigned so they gave me -- you guessed it -- cleaning a bathroom.
The bathroom was very clean and well maintained -- flowers, incense,
wood trim, modern fixtures -- I was impressed.
I took a very professional and serious approach and put my heart into
it, asking others for help in finding the implements of cleaning, etc.
I felt like a confident, seasoned, old monk watching the newcomers
ambling awkwadly about, while I was mopping purposefully.
After the cleaning period we had 40 minutes of zazen. I tried
shikantaza -- empty mindednes and a lot of good stuff was coming up.
Interesting revelations about Joe and Foot, some old personal discomfort
and awkardness issues. My legs kept falling asleep so I tucked them up
occasionally.
It was soon finished -- I was really hoping for more. Then we went for
a walk around the Zendo and up and down the street (kihin). Then Roshi
gave a talk about life and death as metaphors for enlightenment, being
in the moment, etc, all good stuff that made sense.
I had a revelation/conclusion when he described enlightenment (Dogen's
letting go of body and mind) as a death of the ego after which suffering
should not bother you anymore. I felt my pride and controlling desires
fall away into a surrender to life and other people. It is an
interesting experience. That Roshi knows his stuff. He only took one
question afterwards, perhaps due to the somberness of the topic.
I thought about the parallels between him and some ministers I've
heard. One thing that I did not like about ministers is that I always
had to pick thorough their words to find the deep meaning. And there
was a lot of stuff I had to throw out because I did not agree with it,
mostly stuff about the duality of God being above us.
But I noticed that with Roshi Mel, in this talk, I agreed with him 100%.
I've never met a religious authority who understood things as well as I
do -- and his is pretty good.
Afterwards we had tea and cookies and I talked with a guy who's been
practicing for 8 years and was going to move into the center community.
There are about 20-30 people living on the grounds.
Michael
Michael Dediu
Mark Vetanen wrote:
>
> Michael Dediu <de...@mindspring.com> wrote in article
> <33C7E4...@mindspring.com>...
> > But I noticed that with Roshi Mel, in this talk, I agreed with him 100%.
> > I've never met a religious authority who understood things as well as I
> > do -- and his is pretty good.
>
I respect people who understand things as well as me, or better. His
Japanese Soto is not as deep as the Chinese Chan, but still better than
my Zen (in some ways). I enjoyed listening to him talk. My relative
enlightenment is higher than most of his students there and I think Mel
recognized this.
Another mark of a good teacher is the ability to adapt his level of
teaching to his students. I think he can do this with me. This is a
problem I had with my Presbyterian church. It took them 1-2 years what
took Mel one week.
> Is agreeing with him important?
I would not want to listen to him give a lecture and disagree with him,
unless I had the power to stand up and correct him. I expect my ideas
to be treated as equal to his.
> As for myself, I would become interested in a person whom I disagreed with
> 100%, because I like the challagne and the oppertunity for a type of
> introspection that does not come with 100% agreeablity.
>
> Mark Vetanen
Ok. But challenge is one thing, learning/teaching is another. How
about 50% challenge, 50% agreement?
Michael
Mark Vetanen
Michael Dediu <de...@mindspring.com> wrote in article
<33C7E4...@mindspring.com>...
> But I noticed that with Roshi Mel, in this talk, I agreed with him 100%.
> I've never met a religious authority who understood things as well as I
> do -- and his is pretty good.
Do you think you will become Mels Student? Is agreeing with him important?
As for myself, I would become interested in a person whom I disagreed with
100%, because I like the challagne and the oppertunity for a type of
introspection that does not come with 100% agreeablity.
mark Vetanen
Michael Dediu
Steven A. Lightfoot wrote:
>
> Michael Dediu <de...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >Mark Vetanen wrote:
> >>
> >> Michael Dediu <de...@mindspring.com> wrote in article
> >> <33C7E4...@mindspring.com>...
> >> > But I noticed that with Roshi Mel, in this talk, I agreed with him 100%.
> >> > I've never met a religious authority who understood things as well as I
> >> > do -- and his is pretty good.
> >>
> >> Do you think you will become Mels Student?
>
> >Japanese Soto is not as deep as the Chinese Chan, but still better than
> >my Zen (in some ways). I enjoyed listening to him talk. My relative
> >enlightenment is higher than most of his students there and I think Mel
> >recognized this.
>
> >Another mark of a good teacher is the ability to adapt his level of
> >teaching to his students. I think he can do this with me. This is a
> >problem I had with my Presbyterian church. It took them 1-2 years what
> >took Mel one week.
>
>
> >unless I had the power to stand up and correct him. I expect my ideas
> >to be treated as equal to his.
> >
> >> 100%, because I like the challagne and the oppertunity for a type of
> >> introspection that does not come with 100% agreeablity.
> >>
>
> >Ok. But challenge is one thing, learning/teaching is another. How
> >about 50% challenge, 50% agreement?
> >Michael
>
> What is it that you agreed with him on?
His posting to alt.zen without silly commentary from you.
Michael
Phipps
Steven A. Lightfoot wrote:
> >Mark:
> >I would become interested in a person whom I disagreed with
> >100%, because I like the challagne and the oppertunity for a type of
> >introspection that does not come with 100% agreeablity.
>
> >mark Vetanen
>
> Foot:
> I don't know about you Mark but I disagree with you 100%, 100% of the
> time.
If Mark disagreed with himself 100%, 100% of the time, that would be a
real challenge! :-)
Mark Vetanen
> Ok. But challenge is one thing, learning/teaching is another. How
> about 50% challenge, 50% agreement?
> Michael
>
the right place.
Good luck! Say HI to the old man for me sometimes...He knows who I am.
Mark Vetanen
Michael Dediu
Ok. But how does he know you? Were you his student?
Michael
Steven A. Lightfoot
"Mark Vetanen" <zen...@teleport.com> wrote:
>Michael Dediu <de...@mindspring.com> wrote in article
><33CB16...@mindspring.com>...
>> Ok. But challenge is one thing, learning/teaching is another. How
>> about 50% challenge, 50% agreement?
>> Michael
>>
>50 - 50 is a good place! If Mel can give you that, then I think you are in
>the right place.
>Good luck! Say HI to the old man for me sometimes...He knows who I am.
>Mark Vetanen
Foot:
The greatest satisfaction I have in this life is knowing that I am
known. That's on the dualistic side of the duality/non-duality
reality coin.
Steven A. Lightfoot
Michael Dediu <de...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Mark Vetanen wrote:
>>
>> Michael Dediu <de...@mindspring.com> wrote in article
>> <33CB16...@mindspring.com>...
>> > Ok. But challenge is one thing, learning/teaching is another. How
>> > about 50% challenge, 50% agreement?
>> > Michael
>> >
>> 50 - 50 is a good place! If Mel can give you that, then I think you are in
>> the right place.
>>
>> Good luck! Say HI to the old man for me sometimes...He knows who I am.
>>
>> Mark Vetanen
>Ok. But how does he know you? Were you his student?
>Michael
Foot:
In other words, did you trust him enough to relax completely in his
presence, with not a care in the world because of his presence, or did
you see him as a threat, or somebody not worthy of your awe? Were you
able to become as an innocent beginner, with cup empty and ready to
receive, or a fellow *knower*, already knowing what there is to know.
Michael Dediu
> >> Good luck! Say HI to the old man for me sometimes...He knows who I am.
> >>
> >> Mark Vetanen
>
> >Ok. But how does he know you? Were you his student?
> >Michael
>
> Foot:
> In other words, did you trust him enough to relax completely in his
> presence, with not a care in the world because of his presence, or did
> you see him as a threat, or somebody not worthy of your awe? Were you
> able to become as an innocent beginner, with cup empty and ready to
> receive, or a fellow *knower*, already knowing what there is to know.
Leave Mark alone please. I am having a conversation with him, not you.
Michael
Michael Dediu
> Foot:
> Who and where is this fellow? I'd love to go listen to him. If he
> can reach Michael he's got to be worth listening to.
Visit the San Francisco Zen Center. He's a co-abbot there.
Michael
Foot
Foot
Phipps <mrph...@slip.net> wrote:
>Steven A. Lightfoot wrote:
Foot:
If Mark has half a brain he'd realize that he's being challanged
daily.
Mark Vetanen
>Michael Dediu <de...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>> > Ok. But challenge is one thing, learning/teaching is another. How
>>> > about 50% challenge, 50% agreement?
>>> > Michael
50/50 is a good starting place. When you get the chance, try to meet with
Reb Anderson. I think you will find about 90%/10% challange/agreement.
>>Ok. But how does he know you? Were you his student?
>>Michael
>
Yeah, for about 4 months at Tassahara Zen Center a few years back. His
stories are simple and he has that Grandfather style of things...one can not
help but like him. Yet don't take that stuff as enlightenment.
>Foot:
>In other words, did you trust him enough to relax completely in his
>presence, with not a care in the world because of his presence, or did
>you see him as a threat, or somebody not worthy of your awe? Were you
>able to become as an innocent beginner, with cup empty and ready to
>receive, or a fellow *knower*, already knowing what there is to know.
Instant cult? Naw, when I first meet Mel I thought he was the greatest!
After awile I learned he is just a man, like you and me. Then after a few
years I think he is doing what he can with a bunch of repressed Christians
who are suffering with induced phobic fears that are brought out by the
teachings of Buddha. Personaly I would not ever do what he is doing....way
to many nut cases and wackos to really spend time with the students who can
get beyond that stuff.
Mark Vetanen
karen
On Mon, 21 Jul 1997 08:17:05 -0700, "Mark Vetanen" <zen...@teleport.com>
wrote:
>Then after a few years I think he is doing what he can with a bunch of repressed Christians
>who are suffering with induced phobic fears that are brought out by the
>teachings of Buddha. Personaly I would not ever do what he is doing....way
>to many nut cases and wackos to really spend time with the students who can
>get beyond that stuff.
One hell of a bodhisattva attitude ya got goin' there, Mark.
karen
arde...@idt.net
karen wrote:
> "If they could handle things, they would be identical to the Buddha." - Yunmen
So tell us why Mr. Buddha said this Karen the Wise:
'At present I am living hemmed in by bhikkhus and bhikkhuniis, by male
and female lay followers, [etc], and I live in discomfort and not at
ease [dukkham na phaasu]. Suppose I were to live alone, secluded from
the crowd?' Udaana [V.4.]
Seems Mr. Buddha couldn't handle things either and went off to live in
the forest. So much for Yunmen's words of wisdom which seem to
contradict his teacher's.
A
Mark Vetanen
karen wrote in article <33f38325...@news.mindspring.com>...>One hell
of a bodhisattva attitude ya got goin' there, Mark.
>
At least Im honest and realistic about it! Don't you get tired of fantacy
Island Buddhism??
Foot
arde...@idt.net wrote:
>karen wrote:
>
>> "If they could handle things, they would be identical to the Buddha." - Yunmen
>
>So tell us why Mr. Buddha said this Karen the Wise:
>
>'At present I am living hemmed in by bhikkhus and bhikkhuniis, by male
>and female lay followers, [etc], and I live in discomfort and not at
>ease [dukkham na phaasu]. Suppose I were to live alone, secluded from
>the crowd?' Udaana [V.4.]
Foot:
He didn't say he was looking for the easy life. That would seem
preposterous to me. He was probably telling them that they
*shouldn't* live the easy life and seek to avoid that which life
brought them for their own edification and asking them what he would
have discovered for himself if he had done so. There's no
accounting for different translations of the same words.
>
>Seems Mr. Buddha couldn't handle things either and went off to live in
>the forest. So much for Yunmen's words of wisdom which seem to
>contradict his teacher's.
>
>A
Foot:
Only you could interpret something so clear so assbackwardzly.
No chance the Buddha ever sought comfort when it is evident that he
knew what needed to be done to get results and it was not living the
easy live away from human interaction. Are you using that scripture
to justify your living away from the turmoil of alt.zen?
Foot
kmc...@mindspring.com (karen) wrote:
>On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:59:26 +0000, arde...@idt.net wrote:
>
>>> "If they could handle things, they would be identical to the Buddha." - Yunmen
>>
>>So tell us why Mr. Buddha said this Karen the Wise:
>>
>>'At present I am living hemmed in by bhikkhus and bhikkhuniis, by male
>>and female lay followers, [etc], and I live in discomfort and not at
>>ease [dukkham na phaasu]. Suppose I were to live alone, secluded from
>>the crowd?' Udaana [V.4.]
>>
>>Seems Mr. Buddha couldn't handle things either and went off to live in
>>the forest. So much for Yunmen's words of wisdom which seem to
>>contradict his teacher's.
>
>Just to humor you, fair and noble Ardent...
>
>Tao Wu:
>"Just follow your self-nature. When you want to be leisurely and carefree,
>please, go traveling on the Four Seas like a floating cloud. Adapt yourself
>to the circumstances and don't worry about aftereffects. In the light of
>everyday living, clear your mind and never analyze your activities in forms
>of folly and wisdom. That's all."
>
>From the Chung Yung:
>"The Way is not something that alienates people. The idea of alienation
>is due to those who isolate themselves from the community for the sake
>of so-called entering the Path, while in effect getting further and further
>way from the Truth."
>
>
>
>karen
>---
>
>"I love laughter more than self itself."
> - Foot
Foot:
And there's nothing funnier than we people, in community. <g>
karen
arde...@idt.net
Foot wrote:
> Foot:
> And there's nothing funnier than we people, in community. <g>
And there is nothing funnier than Karen who is trying to tell us that
the Buddha's words are inferior to those Tao-wu and the Chung Yung.
BTW, Karen should know that before you can follow self-nature, you must
spend many existences just trying to find it. Also, attaining the Way
(bodhi) ain't easy either.
A
Orual
> 'At present I am living hemmed in by bhikkhus and bhikkhuniis, by male
> and female lay followers, [etc], and I live in discomfort and not at
> ease [dukkham na phaasu]. Suppose I were to live alone, secluded from
> the crowd?' Udaana [V.4.]
Now while Ven. Meghiya was staying in the mango grove, he was for the
most part assailed by three kinds of unskillful thoughts: sensual
thoughts, thoughts of ill will, and thoughts of doing harm. The thought
occurred to him: "How amazing! How awesome! Even though it was through
faith that I went forth from home to the homeless life, still I am
overpowered by these three kinds of unskillful thoughts: sensual
thoughts, thoughts of ill will, and thoughts of doing harm." Emerging
from his seclusion in the late afternoon, he went to the Blessed One and,
on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting
there he said to the Blessed One, "Just now, while I was staying in the
mango grove, I was for the most part assailed by three kinds of
unskillful thoughts: sensual thoughts, thoughts of ill will, and thoughts
of doing harm. The thought occurred to me: 'How amazing! How awesome!
Even though it was through faith that I went forth from home to the
homeless life, still I am overpowered by these three kinds of unskillful
thoughts: sensual thoughts, thoughts of ill will, and thoughts of doing
harm.'"
"Meghiya, in one whose release of awareness is still immature, five
qualities bring it to maturity. Which five?
"There is the case where a monk has admirable people as friends,
companions, and colleagues. In one whose release of awareness is still
immature, this is the first quality that brings it to maturity.
"Furthermore, the monk is virtuous. He dwells restrained in accordance
with the Patimokkha, consummate in his behavior and sphere of activity.
He trains himself, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in
the slightest faults. In one whose release of awareness is still
immature, this is the second quality that brings it to maturity.
"Furthermore, he gets to hear at will, easily and without difficulty,
talk that is truly sobering and conducive to the opening of awareness,
i.e., talk on having few wants, on contentment, on seclusion, on
non-entanglement, on arousing persistence, on virtue, on concentration,
on discernment, on release, and on the knowledge and vision of release.
In one whose release of awareness is still immature, this is the third
quality that brings it to maturity.
"Furthermore, he keeps his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful
[mental] qualities and for taking on skillful qualities. He is steadfast,
solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful
qualities. In one whose release of awareness is still immature, this is
the fourth quality that brings it to maturity.
"Furthermore, he is discerning, endowed with the discernment of arising
and passing away -- noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of
stress. In one whose release of awareness is still immature, this is the
fifth quality that brings it to maturity.
"Meghiya, when a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, and
colleagues, it is to be expected that he will be virtuous, will dwell
restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha, consummate in his behavior
and sphere of activity, and will train himself, having undertaken the
training rules, seeing danger in the slightest faults.
"When a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, and colleagues,
it is to be expected that he will get to hear at will, easily and without
difficulty, talk that is truly sobering and conducive to the opening of
awareness, i.e., talk on having few wants, on contentment, on seclusion,
on non-entanglement, on arousing persistence, on virtue, on
concentration, on discernment, on release, and on the knowledge and
vision of release.
"When a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, and colleagues,
it is to be expected that he will keep his persistence aroused for
abandoning unskillful qualities, and for taking on skillful qualities --
steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to
skillful qualities.
"When a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, and colleagues,
it is to be expected that he will be discerning, endowed with discernment
of arising and passing away -- noble, penetrating, leading to the right
ending of stress.
"And furthermore, when the monk is established in these five qualities,
there are four additional qualities he should develop: He should develop
[contemplation of] the unattractive so as to abandon lust. He should
develop good will so as to abandon ill will. He should develop
mindfulness of in-and-out breathing so as to cut off distractive
thinking. He should develop the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot
the conceit, 'I am.' For a monk perceiving inconstancy, the perception of
not-self is made firm. One perceiving not-self attains the uprooting of
the conceit, 'I am' -- Unbinding in the here and now."
Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that
occasion exclaimed:
Little thoughts, subtle thoughts,
when followed, stir up the heart.
Not comprehending the thoughts of the heart,
one runs here & there,
the mind out of control.
But comprehending the thoughts of the heart,
one who is ardent, mindful,
restrains them.
When, followed, they stir up the heart,
one who is awakened
lets them go without trace.
Udaana [V.4.]
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Guru Maha Devi Toe
arde...@idt.net wrote:
>Foot wrote:
>
>> Foot:
>> And there's nothing funnier than we people, in community. <g>
>
>Ardie:
>And there is nothing funnier than Karen who is trying to tell us that
>the Buddha's words are inferior to those Tao-wu and the Chung Yung.
Foot:
I'd have to argue that point. I find you to be one of the funniest
people I've ever had the pleasure of interacting with on the Net.
You're almost as bad as I am.
Ardie:
>BTW, Karen should know that before you can follow self-nature, you must
>spend many existences just trying to find it. Also, attaining the Way
>(bodhi) ain't easy either.
Foot:
And you should know that Karen has spent many lives and this is her
final one. It will happen in one fell swoop, however, so you can't
see it yet, but I know these things.
mc eins aka the MINDmaster
arde...@idt.net dropped this verse on me:
: karen wrote:
: > "If they could handle things, they would be identical to the Buddha." - Yunmen
: So tell us why Mr. Buddha said this Karen the Wise:
: 'At present I am living hemmed in by bhikkhus and bhikkhuniis, by male
: and female lay followers, [etc], and I live in discomfort and not at
: ease [dukkham na phaasu]. Suppose I were to live alone, secluded from
: the crowd?' Udaana [V.4.]
Alex:
Because he felt that bhikkus and bhikkhuniis would quote his bullshit.
: Seems Mr. Buddha couldn't handle things either and went off to live in
: the forest.
Alex:
That's one way to handle the problem.
: So much for Yunmen's words of wisdom which seem to
: contradict his teacher's.
Alex:
It's called nendo, I believe.
--
"Lgs$'& g/%sJW/%nh n klbngkl&& ~+#9046lvg gu96 !"
- A&$'h73vb&%bK