The right to criticize and Wehrwulf's "Sea Witch"
Mike Tice
include one story 'published' on the web, I took a look at Wehrwulf's "Sea
Witch". I wanted to see this lupine masterpiece that conferred the
authority to criticize others ... an authority withheld from non-writers.
As for my own take on that issue, Wehrwulf might be surprised to learn
that film reviewers are generally not film-makers themselves. By virtue
of having watched many films, their opinions count for something. Equally
so with readers and writers. One might lend more credibility to a review
published in the New York Review of Books, but I don't see that
non-writers must refrain from making their opinions known. Or that they
should be rudely chastised if they should dare to do so.
As for "Sea Witch" ... I have seen more amateur fiction than I care to
remember, and this story in no way distinguished itself from the pack.
This is hardly an insult, as one shouldn't expect much from an early
effort. Indeed, I found many details that suggest a talent that might be
developed with time, practice and effort. Many examples of fan fiction
have no redeeming features whatsoever.
General criticism of the style: there were a number of details that
struck me as too precious. A more mature writer knows when to kill his
babies --- those cutesy sentences that thrill you when you write them, but
should really be left out or modified. These are sometimes tough to
decide on, for these are the very sentences that can make an author's
style stand out. You just donąt want to stand out like a sore thumb. A
couple examples of this:
"My present abode was also a corpse of my brutality, my second divorce."
In addition to the questionable metaphor, the phrase 'corpse of my
brutality' suggests that the brutality is dead.
"my Cyclopean, digital demon"
A bit overwrought for describing a computer.
Here's one I liked, though:
"The oceans are the forefathers of decay and are happy to remind us of
their accomplishment, given the opportunity."
My second general complaint is thesauritis. In many cases, the simpler
word is better, especially if the more complicated one has shades of
meaning that are significant. The best example is:
łIt didn't appear to be a great dilemma when I started up the small pile
of stones ...˛
I suspect the original draft had łproblem˛ for łdilemma˛, and the
handy-dandy thesaurus offered łdilemma˛. Or perhaps it just popped into
Wehrwulfąs mind. In either case, a dilemma is a difficult choice between
two options, not a generic Śproblemą. Sensitivity to these subtleties is
an important skill, and forms an essential part of revision.
My final general comment is just to inspire you to do more careful
proofreading. There are a few typos and not-quite sentences. And one
ambiguous sentence that should be emended:
łSo there I was, drinking in a newfound vista ...˛
Iąm afraid I imagined the narrator with a beer in hand.
As for particular comments on the story, I found the intro a bit
overlong -- learning about the narratorąs writing difficulties didnąt hold
my interest, and the payoff at the end is a bit weak.
The narrator is a bit too incurious about the tube. He should examine
it closely and at least try to open it up immediately.
Unless the merchant were educated, he wouldnąt be likely to write in
Latin, but rather some Italian dialect. Also, thereąs no such thing as a
łLatin-to-English translation guide.˛ The narrator would use a Latin
grammar and a Latin/English dictionary.
Where exactly is Olbia? Ancient Olbia is out near the Black Sea, and
was destroyed in the 3rd century. My atlas gives a modern Olbia on
Sardinia, but then the merchant should sail east to get to Rome, not
west. This may be a niggling point, but real editors check up on these
sorts of things.
The merchant hides the message in some villagerąs home. Did he hide it
in the tube? How did it get in the tube? Did the villager read this
important message and then stick it in a tube and throw it in the sea?
How did it get to America of all places? You may know the answer, but
itąs not in the story. And thatąs a huge plot difficulty that demands an
explanation.
--Mike
PS to Wehrwulf to forestall the inevitable question: Yes, I have written
published material, and been paid good money for it. Though I consider
myself a worm not fit to disturb the earth containing Lovecraftąs mortal
remains, by your own rules I certainly have the right to criticize a
literary paramecium such as you.
GoffsCA
>From: award...@aol.spam (Mike Tice)
>Date: 3/6/99 2:53 PM MST
>"my Cyclopean, digital demon"
>
> A bit overwrought for describing a computer.
I have a mental image of a 24-foot monitor, a mouse the size of a Volkswagen,
and a keyboard you could sail safely to the Bahamas.<g>
Robert McKay
AOL - GoffsCA or Goffs California
E-mail - gof...@aol.com/thir...@juno.com/
goffsca...@aol.com
Do I frighten you, Father? ----Divia
StoOdin101
>and a keyboard you could sail safely to the Bahamas.<g>
You have a mental image.
I'm trying to tame the thing.
"If our lives are indeed the sum total of the choices we have made, then we
cannot change who we are. But with every new choice we're given, we can change
who we're going to be." --- THE OUTER LIMITS; "In Another Life"
Don
> --Mike
Well, I rather liked _Sea Witch_ For whatever that's worth.
>
> PS to Wehrwulf to forestall the inevitable question: Yes, I have written
> published material, and been paid good money for it.
In this published material did you end a lot of your sentences with
prepositions? Would you be so kind as to name a few of these works? More
importantly, are they fiction? Writing non-fiction is a seperate thing
entirely.
--
Don M.
---------------------------
http://www.seidata.com/~donm/
Dan Clore
> In this published material did you end a lot of your sentences with
> prepositions?
Sorry to break in but I must say I think people who keep bringing up
this bogus rule should just fuck off.
--
---------------------------------------------------
Dan Clore
The Website of Lord We˙rdgliffe:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/index.html
Welcome to the Waughters....
The Dan Clore Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/necpage.htm
Because the true mysteries cannot be profaned....
"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!"
vonj...@hotmail.com
newsgroup, I thought I'd follow up on Michael Tice's piece. I
should point out first that merely having a piece published on
one's own website is no measure of worth as an author. It's often
best to submit it to one of the numerous web 'zines whose editors
often haunt this group; they may publish it, and if nothing else
you'll get an honest assessment.
"The Sea-Witch" is a piece by someone who has passed most of the
first hurdles as an author. With a few exceptions, the punctuation and
grammar are clear, and the sentences make sense, even if there is a
great deal of repetition. (I would also advise Wehrwulf to remove the
<br> tags between paragraphs; they aren't necessary, and interfere with
the reader's appreciation of the story.) Unfortunately, we are now at
the second set of hurdles, and they're often a bitch to cross.
As we begin, we find the main character waking up. A good writer
once told me that no story should start with the main character waking
up - it's a cliche. To compound this, this awakened main character is
another cliche - a failed, alcoholic writer. Nobody feels sympathy for
failed, alcoholic writers save for said authors and their mothers, so
the story already has two strikes against it. Changing the character
(even just by giving the author a little more personality) and starting
the piece in a different place would help.
We then accompany this writer on his rounds, wandering around the
apartment, looking at his watch, checking the mail, etc. What is actually
happening here is that the (real) writer is getting warmed up writing.
There's nothing wrong with this, but it should be cropped during
revision.
The character then goes down to the beach, where he finds the
cylinder, and makes his way home. On the way, he is caught by a storm,
and we get some truly powerful imagery here. However, it goes on for
longer than necessary - the reader wants to know what's in that cylinder
and shouldn't be delayed in satisfaction for too long. I'd probably keep
the return trip short - two paragraphs at most should be more than
sufficient.
Now that we're back in the house, the cylinder is opened and the
document within is revealed. Now we encounter another difficulty - an
ancient document that doesn't read as such. The presence of a great
deal of dialogue, noting a large number of small details, and a few
anachronistic phrases (no Roman would ever refer to a centurion as a
"Roman centurion") - all of these work against the document. There
are two possible ways to get around this. One is to read a few documents
from the proper period and attempt to utilize their style. The other is
to have the author paraphrase the document in his own language and style.
Then, the music starts - and the story ends. I'd suggest that
this story cries out for a continuation which includes a variation on
the theme of the temptress given here. Perhaps use some of the storm
material from earlier in the story, and put it in the climax where
the main character sees/attacks/talks to the Sea Witch.
That's all I have for now. Good luck, and no matter what, keep
writing.
Yrs.,
Daniel Harms
http://members.tripod.com/~danharms/
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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GigiloAunt
importantly, are they fiction? Writing non-fiction is a seperate thing
entirely.<
It'd be a good idea to look up in a few linguistic books the difference between
prescriptive and descriptive rules of language. That aside, when you only
allow your work to be criticized by those who have your approval based on some
criteria, the inevitable result is inbreeding, decadence and eventually
extinction.
I've got a mechanic who doesn't drive. He can fix the world's most complex car
with a push pin, but doesn't drive; he's not that good a driver. There's more
than one way to gain experience with something. Someone who spends a lot of
time writing expository essays can be a damn good critic of fiction.
Good writing is good writing. It's subjective to a large extent, but it isn't
that hard to notice a good writer. One of his or her hallmarks will be at
least one proof reading of their own work.
Richard
"That's Syd having a bad trip. We put him in the linen cupboard."
-Harry Dobson
http://members.aol.com/GigiloAunt/index.html
GoffsCA
>From: stood...@aol.com (StoOdin101)
>Date: 3/6/99 4:51 PM MST
>>I have a mental image of a 24-foot monitor, a mouse the size of a
>Volkswagen,
>>and a keyboard you could sail safely to the Bahamas.<g>
>
>You have a mental image.
>I'm trying to tame the thing.
I recommend threatening it with tactical nuclear weapons. :->
GigiloAunt
>Volkswagen,
>>and a keyboard you could sail safely to the Bahamas.<g>
>
>You have a mental image.
>I'm trying to tame the thing.
I recommend threatening it with tactical nuclear weapons. :-><<<
>GoffsCA
Surround it with abacuses, that'll keep it in line. If that fails, scream
"ONE, ZERO, ONE, ZERO" at it over and over again. It'll get the point.
Gregory L. Hansen
Mike Tice <award...@aol.spam> wrote:
> Intrigued by what I saw as rampant egomania from a writer whose credits
>include one story 'published' on the web, I took a look at Wehrwulf's "Sea
>Witch". I wanted to see this lupine masterpiece that conferred the
>authority to criticize others ... an authority withheld from non-writers.
>As for my own take on that issue, Wehrwulf might be surprised to learn
>that film reviewers are generally not film-makers themselves. By virtue
>of having watched many films, their opinions count for something. Equally
>so with readers and writers. One might lend more credibility to a review
>published in the New York Review of Books, but I don't see that
>non-writers must refrain from making their opinions known. Or that they
>should be rudely chastised if they should dare to do so.
Hey, I've written a few stories about a high school super hero, published
in the "Way to Go, Galen", a club newsletter. Does that qualify me to
critisize writers? Or do I need to publish in a more prestigious medium,
like the world wide web?
> As for "Sea Witch" ... I have seen more amateur fiction than I care to
>remember, and this story in no way distinguished itself from the pack.
>This is hardly an insult, as one shouldn't expect much from an early
>effort. Indeed, I found many details that suggest a talent that might be
>developed with time, practice and effort. Many examples of fan fiction
>have no redeeming features whatsoever.
>
> General criticism of the style: there were a number of details that
So you gotta go stir up trouble, huh?
Gregory L. Hansen
>Mike Tice wrote:
>> --Mike
>
> Well, I rather liked _Sea Witch_ For whatever that's worth.
>
>>
>> PS to Wehrwulf to forestall the inevitable question: Yes, I have written
>> published material, and been paid good money for it.
>
>prepositions? Would you be so kind as to name a few of these works? More
Hey, a preposition is a perfectly good thing to end a sentence with!
Gregory L. Hansen
GigiloAunt <gigil...@aol.com> wrote:
>>In this published material did you end a lot of your sentences with
>prepositions? Would you be so kind as to name a few of these works? More
>entirely.<
>>Don <hashur
>
>It'd be a good idea to look up in a few linguistic books the difference between
>prescriptive and descriptive rules of language. That aside, when you only
This is one topic up with which I will not put! (Thank you, Churchill.)
>allow your work to be criticized by those who have your approval based on some
>criteria, the inevitable result is inbreeding, decadence and eventually
>extinction.
I think more broadly you should expect your audience to criticize your
work. The most basic form of criticism is whether they actually spend
money on it! If nobody buys your story, that means the audience has cast
a judgement of it, and they don't want it. Beyond that, the author should
be happy to read what his/her audience did and didn't like about it.
There's bound to be some knee-jerk responses, but just as inevitably will
be good information on how to improve.
But really, if an author is trying to appeal to a popular audience, an
audience made largely of non-writers, then that author had damn well
better be open to criticism from non-writers! It's one thing if someone
is going through your personal effects, finds a story you were ashamed of
and hid away, and proceeded to criticize it. But when you put your work
out for public consumption, it's fair game for anyone who can read. When
you write to someone, live with the possibility that he may write back.
StoOdin101
>>I'm trying to tame the thing.
>
>I recommend threatening it with tactical nuclear weapons. :->
>
I tried that. It took control of the weapons and now insists I call it
"Colossus".
Wehrwulf
took the time to offer such an in-depth critique of my first effort.
> Intrigued by what I saw as rampant egomania from a writer whose credits
> include one story 'published' on the web, I took a look at Wehrwulf's "Sea
> Witch". I wanted to see this lupine masterpiece that conferred the
> authority to criticize others ... an authority withheld from non-writers.
Wrong. Not only are you assuming I am egotistical (which I am not, when
it comes to my writing), but you are also assuming I offer no credence
to opinions of writing from non-writers. If you need to understand my
earlier rant, reread the thread. That's not what I said.
> As for my own take on that issue, Wehrwulf might be surprised to learn
> that film reviewers are generally not film-makers themselves.
Shocked, even. *smirk*
<snip> No need to reiterate.
> As for "Sea Witch" ... I have seen more amateur fiction than I care to
> remember, and this story in no way distinguished itself from the pack.
> This is hardly an insult, as one shouldn't expect much from an early
> effort. Indeed, I found many details that suggest a talent that might be
> developed with time, practice and effort. Many examples of fan fiction
> have no redeeming features whatsoever.
It isn't fan fiction. Nor will any other of my works, but I certainly
appreciate your inspiring words concerning my fledgling ability.
> "My present abode was also a corpse of my brutality, my second divorce."
>
> In addition to the questionable metaphor, the phrase 'corpse of my
> brutality' suggests that the brutality is dead.
No, as written, it is a corpse of MY brutailty, not the corpse OF
butality.
> "my Cyclopean, digital demon"
>
> A bit overwrought for describing a computer.
Actually, I thought it was pertinent, clever and true to the character's
frame of mind.
> Here's one I liked, though:
>
> "The oceans are the forefathers of decay and are happy to remind us of
> their accomplishment, given the opportunity."
Thank you.
> My second general complaint is thesauritis. In many cases, the simpler
> word is better, especially if the more complicated one has shades of
> meaning that are significant. The best example is:
I only used my thesaurus in the fifth rewrite, to polish the words I
thought needed to reflect mood, such as "replot", for example, to give a
more nautical feel.
> łIt didn't appear to be a great dilemma when I started up the small pile
> of stones ...˛
>
> I suspect the original draft had łproblem˛ for łdilemma˛, and the
> handy-dandy thesaurus offered łdilemma˛. Or perhaps it just popped into
> Wehrwulfąs mind. In either case, a dilemma is a difficult choice between
> two options, not a generic Śproblemą. Sensitivity to these subtleties is
> an important skill, and forms an essential part of revision.
Incorrect. The word "dilemma" was in every draft, including the
origional one.
Please be more specific concerning "sensitivites to theses subtleties,
if you would be so kind. I can't quite grasp the concept, however it
seems to be appealing. If it helps my writing, I want to know.
> My final general comment is just to inspire you to do more careful
> proofreading. There are a few typos and not-quite sentences. And one
> ambiguous sentence that should be emended:
Which sentence? This one:
> łSo there I was, drinking in a newfound vista ...˛
>
> Iąm afraid I imagined the narrator with a beer in hand.
Well, I can't help EVERY reader's misinterpretation.
> As for particular comments on the story, I found the intro a bit
> overlong -- learning about the narratorąs writing difficulties didnąt hold
> my interest, and the payoff at the end is a bit weak.
One question, did you GET the end? I've been told it is a little
ambiguous. I agree, the end is not dramatic. Given that the story is
written by someone, by hand, that is exceedingly hard to pull off.
> The narrator is a bit too incurious about the tube. He should examine
> it closely and at least try to open it up immediately.
He did.
> Unless the merchant were educated, he wouldnąt be likely to write in
> Latin, but rather some Italian dialect. Also, thereąs no such thing as a
> łLatin-to-English translation guide.˛ The narrator would use a Latin
> grammar and a Latin/English dictionary.
Thank you. I will look into that. I did slide by on some research, and
you caught me on it. I won't make the same mistake again.
> Where exactly is Olbia? Ancient Olbia is out near the Black Sea, and
> was destroyed in the 3rd century. My atlas gives a modern Olbia on
> Sardinia, but then the merchant should sail east to get to Rome, not
> west. This may be a niggling point, but real editors check up on these
> sorts of things.
Modern Olbia, Sardinia. No, its important.
> The merchant hides the message in some villagerąs home. Did he hide it
> in the tube? How did it get in the tube? Did the villager read this
> important message and then stick it in a tube and throw it in the sea?
> How did it get to America of all places? You may know the answer, but
> itąs not in the story. And thatąs a huge plot difficulty that demands an
> explanation.
Well, I didn't bother with HOW the tube got to America primarily,
because I COULDN'T. The character had no idea, so, could offer no
reason.
> --Mike
>
> PS to Wehrwulf to forestall the inevitable question:
I wasn't going to ask.
Yes, I have written
> published material, and been paid good money for it. Though I consider
> myself a worm not fit to disturb the earth containing Lovecraftąs mortal
> remains, by your own rules I certainly have the right to criticize a
> literary paramecium such as you.
In conclusion, if you hadn't been kind enough to offer inspiration
earlier in your critique, I would have hammered you for your snide
"paramecium" remark. However, you leave me with no other rebuttal than:
Gee, thanx. Good thing you aren't a doctor, huh? Might I suggest you
don't offer the same commentary to other fledgling authors?
Respex,
Wehrwulf
Wehrwulf
Dan Clore wrote:
>
> Don wrote:
>
> > In this published material did you end a lot of your sentences with
> > prepositions?
>
Wehrwulf
"Do...you...want...to...play...a...game?"
Wehrwulf
"Gregory L. Hansen" wrote:
> Hey, I've written a few stories about a high school super hero, published
> in the "Way to Go, Galen", a club newsletter. Does that qualify me to
> critisize writers? Or do I need to publish in a more prestigious medium,
> like the world wide web?
No, opening your work to criticism, by the general public, enhances your
value to critique another's work.
> So you gotta go stir up trouble, huh?
Did you have a point here, other than to offer dissention? I appreciate
the effort, but did you read my story? Several of his points were valid.
Respex,
Wehrwulf
Wehrwulf
Thank you for hammering my work (as opposed to hammering my opinions)!
> I should point out first that merely having a piece published on
> one's own website is no measure of worth as an author. It's often
> best to submit it to one of the numerous web 'zines whose editors
> often haunt this group; they may publish it, and if nothing else
> you'll get an honest assessment.
I have no arguement with that. Its been submitted. Actually, it was
requested,;but that's irrelevant.
> "The Sea-Witch" is a piece by someone who has passed most of the
> first hurdles as an author. With a few exceptions, the punctuation and
> grammar are clear, and the sentences make sense, even if there is a
> great deal of repetition. (I would also advise Wehrwulf to remove the
> <br> tags between paragraphs; they aren't necessary, and interfere with
> the reader's appreciation of the story.)
My apologies. I posted it myself and I am not adept with HTML. I tried
to fix it twice, but failed. I will look at it again. I was not happy
with the breaks either.
> As we begin, we find the main character waking up. A good writer
> once told me that no story should start with the main character waking
> up - it's a cliche. To compound this, this awakened main character is
> another cliche - a failed, alcoholic writer. Nobody feels sympathy for
> failed, alcoholic writers save for said authors and their mothers, so
> the story already has two strikes against it. Changing the character
> (even just by giving the author a little more personality) and starting
> the piece in a different place would help.
Yes, it was a device to use a writer. I will consider another character
in the future.
Incidentally, the story actually starts at the end of the day, recalling
the begining, but if you feel that is cliche, I will reconsider it.
> We then accompany this writer on his rounds, wandering around the
> apartment, looking at his watch, checking the mail, etc. What is actually
> happening here is that the (real) writer is getting warmed up writing.
> There's nothing wrong with this, but it should be cropped during
> revision.
Hmmm, I was under the impression I was introducing the character. I
would like to continue discussing this, if you don't mind. I have a
conflicting opinion.
> On the way, he is caught by a storm, and we get some truly powerful imagery here.
Thank you.
> two paragraphs at most should be more than sufficient.
Hmmm, two paragraphs would be quite restrictive, given that the storm is
important to the plot.
> Now that we're back in the house, the cylinder is opened and the
> document within is revealed. Now we encounter another difficulty - an
> ancient document that doesn't read as such. The presence of a great
> deal of dialogue, noting a large number of small details, and a few
> anachronistic phrases (no Roman would ever refer to a centurion as a
> "Roman centurion") - all of these work against the document. There
> are two possible ways to get around this. One is to read a few documents
> from the proper period and attempt to utilize their style. The other is
> to have the author paraphrase the document in his own language and style.
Well, he did, somewhat. I don't speak Latin. Also, I don't see a lot of
dialogue. The details? Descriptions of the encounter?
As for the Centurion, while I agree with your statement, not only is it
an assumption the writer is Italian; but I doubt most casual horror
readers would note the difference. Overall, being a conceptualist at
heart, I will have to side with your assessment and be more careful not
to break the suspension of disbelief. It was extrmely difficult to write
from the vicitm's perspective AND be brief (as in hurred writing).
Although, that is an excuse, not a reason, for sloppy writing.
> Then, the music starts - and the story ends. I'd suggest that
> this story cries out for a continuation which includes a variation on
> the theme of the temptress given here.
Honestly, you believe the story needs to be LONGER? Also, would you be
more specific concerning the theme of the temptress?
> Perhaps use some of the storm
> material from earlier in the story, and put it in the climax where
> the main character sees/attacks/talks to the Sea Witch.
I would have thought meeting Mesmeradi was anticlimatic. I still do, in
fact.
> That's all I have for now. Good luck, and no matter what, keep
> writing.
I will. Thank you, again. I am in your debt.
Respex,
Wehrwulf
Jeff Urs
> No, opening your work to criticism, by the general public, enhances your
> value to critique another's work.
Is there really any point in doing so, since the general public, by and large,
are not published writers and therefore, if I understand you correctly, unfit
to criticise?
Jeff
Mike Tice
> Well, regardless of what will follow, I certainly appreciate that you
> took the time to offer such an in-depth critique of my first effort.
I appreciate your appreciation. If nothing else, you've received a couple
free critiques. Around these parts, you gotta offer some munchies to the
other members of our writer's workshop.
>> Intrigued by what I saw as rampant egomania from a writer whose credits
>> include one story 'published' on the web, I took a look at Wehrwulf's "Sea
>> Witch". I wanted to see this lupine masterpiece that conferred the
>> authority to criticize others ... an authority withheld from non-writers.
>Wrong. Not only are you assuming I am egotistical (which I am not, when
>it comes to my writing), but you are also assuming I offer no credence
>to opinions of writing from non-writers. If you need to understand my
>earlier rant, reread the thread. That's not what I said.
Here is your first rant, I've added a few **'s to pick out choice phrases
EXCUSE ME!
Yes, you with the "holier than thou" attitude!
I write horror. I published my first work on the net a few weeks ago and
my second is in the works as I write this.
**Now, unless you WRITE, don't knock WRITERS.**
I LIKED Deep Rising. It might not be the BE-ALL-END-ALL definitive
horror movie; but it had the proper impact and the concept was sound.The
plot was somewhat contrived (given that the pirates show up immediately
after the initial attack), but that's how motion pictures are made.
Aside from nitpicking the action sequences and a few moments of
ridiculous dialogue, the rest of the movie was excellent.
As for your reference to Aitch Pee-El, I don't recall ANYTHING being
mentioned referring to his works within the movie.
Mayhaps you can refresh my memory with a few quotes???
Since we can assume you write **(given that no one would DARE criticize
someone's work, lest they themselves work in the same field)**, might we
peruse YOUR accomplishments?
Respex,
Wehrwulf
Perhaps you'd like to render these statements inoperative?
To be fair, your later posts seem to confine your beef to non-writers who
criticize other writers for ripping off still other writers. But I think
that's poopoo, too. Criticize all you like, it's a free country. I may
not bother to read just any schmo's comments, but I'll defend to the minor
personal inconvenience the schmo's right to write them.
> > "My present abode was also a corpse of my brutality, my second divorce."
> >
> > In addition to the questionable metaphor, the phrase 'corpse of my
> > brutality' suggests that the brutality is dead.
>
> No, as written, it is a corpse of MY brutailty, not the corpse OF
> butality.
I'm still a little unclear about what you mean, then. If I read "the
corpse of the murderer", I assume the murderer is dead. If I read "the
corpse of Fred's brutality", I assume that Fred's brutality is dead. What
I thought you meant was something like:
"My present abode was an empty, lifeless corpse, the victim of my
brutality and the inevitable divorce."
> > "my Cyclopean, digital demon"
> >
> > A bit overwrought for describing a computer.
>
> Actually, I thought it was pertinent, clever and true to the character's
> frame of mind.
I will come to Wehrwulf's defense to say at least that the computer was
earlier described as having a single eye (of a monitor) so the 'Cyclopean'
at least has some antecedent in the story, but it's still a bit purple.
So you clowns knock it off! Nuts, I just ended a sentence with a
preposition.
> > łIt didn't appear to be a great dilemma when I started up the small pile
> > of stones ...˛
> >
> > I suspect the original draft had łproblem˛ for łdilemma˛, and the
> > handy-dandy thesaurus offered łdilemma˛. Or perhaps it just popped into
> > Wehrwulfąs mind. In either case, a dilemma is a difficult choice between
> > two options, not a generic Śproblemą. Sensitivity to these subtleties is
> > an important skill, and forms an essential part of revision.
>
> Incorrect. The word "dilemma" was in every draft, including the
> origional one.
> Please be more specific concerning "sensitivites to theses subtleties,
> if you would be so kind. I can't quite grasp the concept, however it
> seems to be appealing. If it helps my writing, I want to know.
Well, when the argument gets to this level, it's time to hit the
dictionary. A dilemma is:
1) an argument necessitating a choice between equally unfavorable or
disagreeable alternatives.
2) any situation in which one must choose between unpleasant alternatives.
So a dilemma is like deciding whether to sell your car to pay the rent, or
get evicted and live in your car.
The essential point here is that a dilemma is a situation that offers a
choice of two or more (unpleasant) alternatives, not a problem like a
cliff to be scaled.
> > My final general comment is just to inspire you to do more careful
> > proofreading. There are a few typos and not-quite sentences. And one
> > ambiguous sentence that should be emended:
> Which sentence? This one:
>
> > łSo there I was, drinking in a newfound vista ...˛
> >
> > Iąm afraid I imagined the narrator with a beer in hand.
>
> Well, I can't help EVERY reader's misinterpretation.
In my opinion, these infelicitous phrases should be weeded out when they
come to your attention. That seems more reasonable and useful than
disparaging your readers' intelligence. I'm reminded of a (probably
apocryphal) story of a Victorian authoress who penned the following line
in one of her novels: "She grasped the gardener's stumpy tool."
> > The merchant hides the message in some villagerąs home. Did he hide it
> > in the tube? How did it get in the tube? Did the villager read this
> > important message and then stick it in a tube and throw it in the sea?
> > How did it get to America of all places? You may know the answer, but
> > itąs not in the story. And thatąs a huge plot difficulty that demands an
> > explanation.
>
> Well, I didn't bother with HOW the tube got to America primarily,
> because I COULDN'T. The character had no idea, so, could offer no
> reason.
You COULDN'T think of an answer? That's as much as admitting that your
story doesn't make any sense. Ignoring the problem doesn't make it go
away, it just pisses off the reader.
> One question, did you GET the end? I've been told it is a little
> ambiguous. I agree, the end is not dramatic. Given that the story is
> written by someone, by hand, that is exceedingly hard to pull off.
Did I get the end? It was ambiguous? Why, it merely ended with the
protagonist hearing some stupid music.
Omigosh!! Waitaminute.
Could it be?
Can it be possible?
Could the foul temptress who had lured the mediaeval merchant to his
demise still be a potent force of evil in our brave, modern universe?
Even after many centuries ... and thousands of miles away? But our
protagonist then is doomed to the same fate, meted out by the horrible,
supernatural entity that has been the bane of many a Mediterranean
sailor! The blasphemous monstrosity of the very idea has reduced me to a
quivering sack of goo. Fortunately, my typing fingers have not been
affected, so that I might relate this experience to all of you on the
internet who read t;ljkhl.,v
sdj;aslj
jsldf;laslkjlkj
sdhflshldf*&#(*!
Wehrwulf
> I appreciate your appreciation. If nothing else, you've received a couple
> free critiques. Around these parts, you gotta offer some munchies to the
> other members of our writer's workshop.
Agreed. Next time anyone who has critiqued my work on the newsgroups, I
will consider buying them lunch (given they are anywhere north of
Seattle and South of Canada). The next time YOU are up here, I will.
> Here is your first rant, I've added a few **'s to pick out choice phrases
> **Now, unless you WRITE, don't knock WRITERS.**
> **(given that no one would DARE criticize someone's work, lest they themselves work in the same field)**
> Perhaps you'd like to render these statements inoperative?
Yes, thank you for offering, I would. I would like to recant everything
I said after he said Deep Rising was a cthulhu ripoff.
That's right, everything. I'm tired of the arguement, I took it too far
and that's not exactly how I feel about constructive criticism anyway.
This is one of those classic instances of getting drawn away from your
origional arguements, then floundering when you are not paying attention
to how your anger is affecting your thoughts (in turn affecting your
writing).
> What I thought you meant was something like:
>
> "My present abode was an empty, lifeless corpse, the victim of my
> brutality and the inevitable divorce."
That's correct.
> I will come to Wehrwulf's defense to say at least that the computer was
> earlier described as having a single eye (of a monitor) so the 'Cyclopean'
> at least has some antecedent in the story, but it's still a bit purple.
"Purple"? As in purple prose? My dictionary defines purple prose as
"full of exaggerated literary devices and effects".
Now, you might not have meant that definition; but if you did, I have a
few choice comments for you regarding the lengths I went to paring and
culling that story before I gave it up for adoption (or rather,
execution, apparently).
> The essential point here is that a dilemma is a situation that offers a
> choice of two or more (unpleasant) alternatives, not a problem like a
> cliff to be scaled.
Alright, I will concede that the term "dilemma" was incorrect. While I
would like to say its nit-picking, I can't argue against the use of the
proper term.
> In my opinion, these infelicitous phrases should be weeded out when they
> come to your attention. That seems more reasonable and useful than
> disparaging your readers' intelligence. I'm reminded of a (probably
> apocryphal) story of a Victorian authoress who penned the following line
> in one of her novels: "She grasped the gardener's stumpy tool."
Heh. I wasn't arguing the reader's intelligence, and I agree. Just
because I am not confused, doesn't mean that someone (everyone?) else
isn't. Kewl word, too. Its a good thing I have a dictionary.
> > Well, I didn't bother with HOW the tube got to America primarily,
> > because I COULDN'T. The character had no idea, so, could offer no
> > reason.
> You COULDN'T think of an answer? That's as much as admitting that your
> story doesn't make any sense. Ignoring the problem doesn't make it go
> away, it just pisses off the reader.
Nooo, that's not what I meant. I meant the protagonist couldn't have
possibly known how the tube got there. In actuality, suffering from
Cthulian dementia (brought on by lack of sleep), a Deep One carried it
all the way across the Atlantic and put it there specifically so I could
write this story.
Or it floated there.
Or I forgot to add "Then he woke up." at the end of the story. I DID put
that in there before I posted it on the internet, right?
> > One question, did you GET the end? I've been told it is a little
> > ambiguous. I agree, the end is not dramatic. Given that the story is
> > written by someone, by hand, that is exceedingly hard to pull off.
>
> Did I get the end? It was ambiguous? Why, it merely ended with the
> protagonist hearing some stupid music.
> Omigosh!! Waitaminute.
> Could it be?
> Can it be possible?
> Could the foul temptress who had lured the mediaeval merchant to his
> demise still be a potent force of evil in our brave, modern universe?
> Even after many centuries ... and thousands of miles away? But our
> protagonist then is doomed to the same fate, meted out by the horrible,
> supernatural entity that has been the bane of many a Mediterranean
> sailor! The blasphemous monstrosity of the very idea has reduced me to a
> quivering sack of goo. Fortunately, my typing fingers have not been
> affected, so that I might relate this experience to all of you on the
> internet who read t;ljkhl.,v
> sdj;aslj
> jsldf;laslkjlkj
> sdhflshldf*&#(*!
It was an honest question, with no intent of animosity. Rereading what I
wrote, I could see how you would misinterpret it, if you base your
response on the facts that I am being defensive and I have no respect
for your intelligence. Neither of those two statements are true.
On the other hand, you certainly have a penchant for sarcasm. You are
not a satirical writer, perchance, are you?
Yeah, that was a little venemous, but only a little. I'm trying to
behave myself so I don't go off spouting rants again...
Respex,
Wehrwulf
SoundNFury
Anyone who wants to see some of Michael Tice's work in print, I can get them
the last two issues of ENIGMATA, the journal of Enigma, the UCLA science
fiction/fantasy/horror fan club.
The last one (which also has a Bernie Wrightson and Richard Corben interview)
has some really nasty limericks by Mike.
Cost is $2 each (US). Email me if ya want one: sound...@aol.com
(stop making that disdainful grunt, Mike, you know I'm a shambling promoter)
Aaron Vanek
Check out my movie!
"Return to Innsmouth", based on "The Shadow Over Innsmouth"
http://www.beyond-books.com/productions/innsmouth
Mike Tice
> "Purple"? As in purple prose? My dictionary defines purple prose as
> "full of exaggerated literary devices and effects".
> Now, you might not have meant that definition; but if you did, I have a
> few choice comments for you regarding the lengths I went to paring and
> culling that story before I gave it up for adoption (or rather,
> execution, apparently).
I only said a 'bit' purple. Lovecraft is at least a bit purple at times.
> It was an honest question, with no intent of animosity. Rereading what I
> wrote, I could see how you would misinterpret it, if you base your
> response on the facts that I am being defensive and I have no respect
> for your intelligence. Neither of those two statements are true.
>
> On the other hand, you certainly have a penchant for sarcasm. You are
> not a satirical writer, perchance, are you?
> Yeah, that was a little venemous, but only a little. I'm trying to
> behave myself so I don't go off spouting rants again...
>
> Respex,
> Wehrwulf
Sorry about the sarcastic comments about the ending, but really there
could be no question in a proficient reader's mind about the ending. It's
subtle, but it's not THAT subtle
Regards,
--Mike
KAYVEN
sound...@aol.comIAQ (SoundNFury) writes:
>Anyone who wants to see some of Michael Tice's work in print, I can get them
>the last two issues of ENIGMATA, the journal of Enigma, the UCLA science
>fiction/fantasy/horror fan club.
Heck, why not just check out Mike's web site at
http://members.aol.com/zotzahau/index.html
And while you are there, you can check out the most horrifying story I've ever
had the experience to come across. A story that caused a great deal of
emotional turmoil for me (and my family) when a printed copy fell out of my
backpack in the middle of my Philosophy of Science class and was read aloud by
the instructor.
The story called:
"Sex and Furniture"
I spent an entire semester with the nick name "Leviticus" after that. *sigh*
---- Steven Marc Harris
P.S. I had a question for Michael Tice a couple of months ago, I don't imagine
he saw it since there wasn't a response. But since he is now lurking about
once more, I figured I'd repost the question.
Looking through Michael Tice's greatly informative Insanity Sourcebook,
_Taint of Madness_, I notice that there isn't a Sanitarium listed for Canton,
Ohio. Since I know he likes to lurk and occasionally post here, I hereby
publicly ask him (or anyone else for that matter) if he ever came across such a
sanitarium. I'd be interested if Lovecraft was thinking of an actual mental
hospital or just used the town for his own nefarious purposes in "The Shadow
Over Innsmouth."
Mike Tice
It's way outta date, but it's still there.
> And while you are there, you can check out the most horrifying story I've ever
> had the experience to come across. A story that caused a great deal of
> emotional turmoil for me (and my family) when a printed copy fell out of my
> backpack in the middle of my Philosophy of Science class and was read aloud by
> the instructor.
>
> The story called:
>
> "Sex and Furniture"
>
>
> I spent an entire semester with the nick name "Leviticus" after that. *sigh*
I think that's the most wonderful thing I've heard in months!
That act must have doubled the number of people who've read/heard that story.
I think "Ophelia" might have had an even worse effect, though.
>
> ---- Steven Marc Harris
>
>
>
>
> P.S. I had a question for Michael Tice a couple of months ago, I don't
imagine
> he saw it since there wasn't a response. But since he is now lurking about
> once more, I figured I'd repost the question.
Sorry I missed it.
> Looking through Michael Tice's greatly informative Insanity Sourcebook,
> _Taint of Madness_, I notice that there isn't a Sanitarium listed for Canton,
> Ohio. Since I know he likes to lurk and occasionally post here, I hereby
> publicly ask him (or anyone else for that matter) if he ever came across
such a
> sanitarium. I'd be interested if Lovecraft was thinking of an actual mental
> hospital or just used the town for his own nefarious purposes in "The Shadow
> Over Innsmouth."
You know, I thought I had found it, but can't find anything in my notes.
Maybe I'm just losing the distinction between fact and reality.
I'll look into it.
--Mike
Wehrwulf
Fair enough. I have a great disdain for "contrived plot devices" (I see
how the alcoholic writer is a cliche, but that is what i "saw", so I
wrote it that way) and "elaborate description" (like describing
architecture and surroundings. Humblest apologies to HPL and King). So,
I try to be meticulous about keeping my prose culled to a minimum,
especially in my "shories" (short stories). When I begin my epic novel,
I want it to be quick and breathless, demanding that the readers keep
reading, offering no succor for the demands of work, sustinance nor sex.
> Sorry about the sarcastic comments about the ending, but really there
> could be no question in a proficient reader's mind about the ending. It's
> subtle, but it's not THAT subtle
>
> Regards,
>
> --Mike
No sweat on the sarcasm. Its an admirable quality, which I enjoy
occassionally as well. Good. I'm pleased its not too oblique(?). It
wasn't meant to be. I tried to imagine what he would here when she came
to get the document.
May the Moon light your way until our Pathz cross again,
Wehrwulf