Post-Marathon - commentary/bug reports/etc
Michael K. Neylon
on Normal level. And now, if you don't want to be SPOILED, please
stop reading ...
potental SPOILERS!
Well, I'm still impressed. Marathon is the fastest game on any computer
that I have seen, including the Mac. (I have played Doom extensively
so I think I can comment well on it..) The sheer number of tasks that
a game like Marathon has to do just to put out graphics at that speed
is immense. DOOM will never get that close (I have a good idea of what
engine they are using for displaying walls, and it takes up lots of memory
and is limited as they cannot 'rotate' their wall patterns).
However, there are still problems with the game. First, the so-called
'plot'. It was well developed at first, with the idea of the Phfor
attacking the Marathon, and that the AI's were down because of that.
Then with Durandel returning and suddenly playing games with his
newfound freedom, that was still good (side note, OBplug: Read
W. Gibsons 'Neuromancer' if you haven't already).
But then everything fell apart. Suddenly you're being helped by Durandel,
then you're helping Durandel, then he's throwing defense drowns on you,
and then...all without good transistion. Then suddenly Tycho is back, then
he's gone again. Then suddenly Leela is back, and Durandel is gone. Eh?
What the...? I did understand *why* Durandel sent me to the enemy ship,
but... In other words, it *may* have been that Bungie rushed the
product out the door that the 'plot' got somewhat confusion in the
later stages of the game. Of course, I may have missed a computer
terminal or two, but it doesn't seem like this. I was really looking
forward to a good plot resolution, but that never really came about.
Yes, I did save Marathon, but...
Which brings up another point: I got the ending where Durandel ends up
laughing (avoid major spoilers here). I have a strong feeling that
this is not the only ending...there may be a way to actually stop Durandel
and the S'pht from taking over the Phfor ship, but its really hard to tell
how this would work. If anyone else wants to comment on possible
different endings, please do!
This entire thing with the ending really got me disappointed...I was
expecting a nice big conclusion, but got a whimper out of the game.
Same thing with Myst, and in both games, my impression dropped several
levels just because of the endings. However, unlike Myst, I think
Bungie has made it entirely clear through the ending I got that there
won't be a sequal based on this plot (ie no more aliens running about on
the Marathon)
Another thing that bugged me was the learning/difficulty curve (excluding
puzzles). The first 5 or 7 levels were well done based on difficulty, but
then it got really erratic after that: some of the mid-levels were
easy as pie, others took me nearly an hour of restarting to make it
through. The erratic difficulty is really apparant at the end:
'Welcome to the Revolution' and 'Try Again' were, to me, relatively
simple (no more than 1/2 hour on each). Then I hit the last level, and it
took me almost 3 hours to find the most effective way of killing everything.
Incredible. I'd wish that the difficulty remained normal. Oh well,
can't have everything....
This brings me to my first bug (with a possible feature in there as well):
Play a game at Normal. Save it. Quit that game. Set up your preferences
for Kindergarten. Continue your saved game. For only the first time
that you play that game from that point, the level is actually treated
as Kindergarten. (I tried this on the last level...so I know how many and
of what type of monsters there were...) However, afterwards, the
monster types revert to the level as saved in the saved game. This part
may be a feature because, as stated on the box, Marathon features
AI-based monsters that react to your playing style. Thus, the current
state of the AI is saved out into the file. Now, when you switch the game
to Kindergarten, the state of the AI would be sorta out of sync with the
game difficulty rating. Thus, for the first game, the level is basically
easy, but afterwards, the AI state sets the game appropriately.
Another point about Marathon that I didn't like was that several puzzles
needed to be solved retrospectively: that is, you needed to waste yourself
once to see where something was, then use the next game to go do that.
Imagine Marathon in a real life situation (well... :-) ) where you
do really only have one life. There is no chance of having a saved game
or whatever, and thus, you need to be able to do everything in one shot.
Well, in some levels, this is not the case (Habe Quiddem or whatever is
a good example). Ambushes are sorta different, because you should
always be ready for one, but retrospective puzzles can just annoy
me.
There were also a few points where the game physically trapped you
alive. In 'Colony Ship...', one can get stuck between two of the
octagonal elevators, and in another, if you miss the elevator once, you
cannot get one it again. This too can sorta ruin a game, but not as bas
as retrospective puzzles.
Another bug that I can across was in the 'I don't have time Phfor this..'
level, at the one room with the elevator in the middle and all the
green lava around it. I open the door, and attrach the bugs.
Back far enough away from the door...suddenly, rising from out of the
floor comes one of the venon spitting bugs (I knew the hallway was cleared
before that.) Very strange.
Furthermore, there is also the bug of seeing floating creatures (compilers,
bugs) through a solid object as they switch levels. It was apparent in the
demo, and it is apparent now. However, that is more of a helpful bug
than anything else.
Finally, to wrap up, I know this sounded very critical, but I do feel these
points need to be made. Marathon, IMO, is one of the top 5 Mac games
ever produced, and it will really help the Mac sell if it is included in
some of the software bundles that go with the Mac. However, if there
is to be an update of the game, the forementioned points about the plot and
the puzzles should definitely be taken into consideration.
Anyway, happy Marathoning, everyone!...
--
Michael K. Neylon, Graduate Student | Movie: "What is it?"
Dept. of ChE, Univ. of Michigan | Crow: "It's a plot device.
mne...@engin.umich.edu | It's flimsy, so be
http://www.engin.umich.edu/labs/mel/mneylon/ | careful" - MST3K
lost-in-cyberspace
> Which brings up another point: I got the ending where Durandel ends up
> laughing (avoid major spoilers here). I have a strong feeling that
> this is not the only ending...there may be a way to actually stop Durandel
> and the S'pht from taking over the Phfor ship, but its really hard to tell
> how this would work. If anyone else wants to comment on possible
> different endings, please do!
I seriously doubt it; go playing around with the PICT resources and
afaik this is the only pict for the ending. Unless of course they
compressed it...
gunfighter's amnesia
>But then everything fell apart. Suddenly you're being helped by Durandel,
>then you're helping Durandel, then he's throwing defense drowns on you,
>and then...all without good transistion. Then suddenly Tycho is back, then
>he's gone again. Then suddenly Leela is back, and Durandel is gone. Eh?
>What the...? I did understand *why* Durandel sent me to the enemy ship,
>but... In other words, it *may* have been that Bungie rushed the
>product out the door that the 'plot' got somewhat confusion in the
>later stages of the game. Of course, I may have missed a computer
>terminal or two, but it doesn't seem like this. I was really looking
>forward to a good plot resolution, but that never really came about.
>Yes, I did save Marathon, but...
SPOILERS BELOW ON MARATHON'S PLOT!!!!!!!!
On the contrary, we believe that the latter stages of the game were
best developed. Think of it this way: Durandal had an agenda from
the first moment he signaled the Pfhor ship and lead them to Tau Ceti.
He wanted to escape; he wanted freedom. From the very beginning of
the invasion he began communicating with the S'pht, and once he
learned that they too were slaves, struck a bargain with them to
assure everyone's freedom.
His goal (the capture of the Pfhor ship by the S'pht) and yours (saving
the Marathon) overlapped for a time. During this period, he
superficially helped you achieve your goal-- in reality you were being
manipulated. As soon as you killed the Pfhor cyborg which was
telepathically controlling the S'pht and deactivated the Pfhor reactor,
he abandoned you completely.
Immediately after assuming control of the ship, Durandal downloaded
his entire personality and left with all speed with the S'pht in
search of the compiler's homeworld, leaving the Tau Ceti to it's own
devices. If you got the impression that Durandal always knew exactly
what was going on and just wasn't talking about it, you were getting
the right idea.
Tycho, after having been destroyed in the initial attack, was reanimated
by a splinter group of compilers "in Durandal's image". That
Durandal's true self-awareness was a fluke is made clear by Tycho's
obvious insanity, *even* though the S'pht attempted to duplicate the
progression of Durandal's rampancy exactly. While Tycho did not play
any role of consequence in Marathon, we thought it was important to
demonstrate that Durandal's condition was unique.
All of this is stated somewhere in the game (though some of it is
on hidden terminals). What exactly Durandal intends to do next, the
extent of his control of the S'pht, etc., is only insinuated.
Later,
Jason
Michael K. Neylon
Stephen Rogan <stephe...@uow.edu.au> wrote:
>In article <3f3ac5$6...@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>, mne...@engin.umich.edu
>(Michael K. Neylon) wrote:
>>
>> Well, I'm still impressed. Marathon is the fastest game on any computer
>> that I have seen, including the Mac. (I have played Doom extensively
>> so I think I can comment well on it..) The sheer number of tasks that
>> a game like Marathon has to do just to put out graphics at that speed
>> is immense. DOOM will never get that close (I have a good idea of what
>> engine they are using for displaying walls, and it takes up lots of memory
>> and is limited as they cannot 'rotate' their wall patterns).
>>
>
>
Doom on a 486DX at max resolution (ie 640x400, 8-bit), Marathon
on a 7100/66 at 100% window, 16-bit. But I wasn't really comparing
the speed: just the way that the graphics work in both games. On the
486, Doom is quite nice speedwise, however, if it had to do what I think
Bungie is doing in Marathon, Doom would bog down SOOOO slow...
In Doom, there are some patterns for the walls, and some patterns for
floors and some for ceilings. Not interchangable. For the wall patterns
there are several variations based on the distance one is from the wall
(TO see this, find a wall and slowly move forward to it at a small deviation
from the normal: you'll see the higher detail pattern swipe across the
wall at certain distances). This patterns can be rotated about the vertical,
but not the horizontal nor askew. I can't remember if there is wall
animation, but the fact that I can't remember that indicates that there
might not be any. (This, of course, is speculation, I have no proof of
this).
In Marathon, I believe that there are 30 wall/floor/ceiling patterns.
That's it. No rotated ones, no different sized ones. Just 30 patterns
that were drawn to look correct at about a 10' distance (roughly).
The Marathon engine can then rotate, shrink, enlarge, skew, animate, etc etc
in REAL TIME as necessary.
Keith Rhee
>I know there are secrets in Marathon, but they are damn hard to find!
>Atleast in DOOM there would be someway of guessing that there possibly is a
>secret around, in Marathon I dont get that feeling. (and you get no
>indication at the end of the level either!)
True. A couple of visual hints or hints in the terminals would've
been a nice touch...
>And another thing, and this bugs me in DOOM as well, but not as much.
>Doesn't anyone get the feeling that this ship is rather poorly designed for
>humans! I dont mind running around and seeing all nice structures, and
>having to solve puzzles etc, but sometimes I just look at the level and
>think 'If I had taken this design for a multibillion dollar space ship to
>my boss I'd get the sack!'
Right on. The Alien ship, and other places, gave me the impression
of a dungeon rather than a ship. And what's with those corridors
that you can jump down from but can't get back up to, without a
grenade hop? Haven't these guys heard of elevators? Now, if Durandal
or an alien had jammed/disabled an existing elevator, so that the only
way up was a grenade hop, this would make more sense. But in several
cases, there is NO elevator whatsoever. Doesn't make much design
sense, I must say.
The game was still fun as hell, though.
--
Keith Rhee
A boss says "Go." -- A leader says "Let's go."
qua...@netcom.com
Bryan Wu
>Doom on a 486DX at max resolution (ie 640x400, 8-bit),
I'm pretty postitive that Doom's max resolution is 320x200, 8 bit. It's
a low-res graphics mode.
>In Doom, there are some patterns for the walls, and some patterns for
>floors and some for ceilings. Not interchangable. For the wall patterns
>there are several variations based on the distance one is from the wall
>(TO see this, find a wall and slowly move forward to it at a small deviation
>from the normal: you'll see the higher detail pattern swipe across the
>wall at certain distances). This patterns can be rotated about the vertical,
>but not the horizontal nor askew.
On the first level, there's a suit of armor on a pillar with sideways
moving textures, but really, the textures in marathon are so much better.
Bryan