Question: END OF HARD-BOILED?
Chad Newton
Can someone fully explain it to me, was the undercover cop alive at the end
and Chow and his cheif burned his records?
(didn't like this ending too much, especially when
Chow has to slap himself)
Thanks, Chad
HDCINORE
NO! I've been browsing the old posts on this newsgroup, and people had a
huge argument about this a couple years ago, but NO, Tony
Leung'scharacter is not alive. Although I'd always seen the last scene
with Tony dumping the cranes in the water as a sort of "redemption,"
(and I'm NOT someone for reading deep meanings into movies) my theory
was confirmed by John Woo himself in some French film magazine. (don't
remember which one) Apparently he ripped it off from (sorry, was
INSPIRED BY) a Jeane(SP?) Pierre Melville film. Some people seem to
think that Tony's sailing off to Antarctica, but even if I hadn't read
that interview with Woo, there's no way he would have given it that
happy of an ending. The ending of Hard Boiled is meant to be sort of
"bitter-sweet;" Tony is DEAD, but he succeeded in a way, so it's really
not such a downer.
-Miles
PS: Besides, if you haven't noticed, it is a big cliche to spiral the
camera up and away when someone is DEAD. You just don't do that to
someone who's still breathing.
PPS: Let's not have an argument about this, okay? It was boring enough
the last time.
Gerard
well sorry to drag this out, but i missed the thread the initial
go-around ...the first time i saw hard-boiled (two years ago?) i had the same
argument with my girlfriend. "he's dead" i said, "he's still alive" she said.
recently saw it again and it kind of switched me over, if he's dead then how
come he is all bandaged up? haven't seen the quotes that miles is talking about
but either way the ending is basically the same in effect.
gerard.
Brian
HDCINORE wrote:
>
> PPS: Let's not have an argument about this, okay? It was boring enough
> the last time.
I can't help but notice a certain nastiness and lack of tolerance for
others opinions and questions that seems to be creeping into this NG
recently. Is it really necessary in this type of NG? I think there are
enough other NGs to vent ones mean spirited bile.Maybe the winter is
getting to all of us.
In this case, I really don't think it is the responsibility of all
posters to research the asian-movies archives in order to make sure that
the questions or comments we make have not been made previously just so
we don't bore people such as yourself. Lots of people like myself are
fairly new to HK movies and to this newsgroup and will no doubt ask the
same old questions time after time. Such is life.
Maybe I am as thick as a brick, but I had never interpreted the movie
this way so I appreciated your excellent comments - but the last PPS was
not needed.
HDCINORE
Sorry! I just don't care for long "flame-wars..." I don't research the
archives to keep old topics from cropping up again, I've just been sick
and bored for a couple days and had nothing else to do and happened to
know that it'd been done to death. If you want to keep talking about it,
have fun, I guess. I never would have bothered posting anything on this
newsgroup if I knew people were going to be so humorless... If you want
to "flame" me, I'm not responding.
Robotech_Master
In article <5ctu6e$i...@hermes.acs.unt.edu>,
Gerard <ggc...@jove.aces.unt.edu> wrote:
He's alive.
For one thing, indeed he is all bandaged up in that last scene. He's
sailing away because, for his role in the whole thing, he has to be
"dead" lest someone want to take revenge on him. Furthermore, the
Hong Kong film article included as part of the "special extras" on the
Criterion laserdisc release of Hard-Boiled specifically mentions that
he is. (Although until I read this, I had thought that he was dead,
myself, so I don't blame people for missing it.)
I think that the intent of that bit at the end was to be, well,
symbolic. In order that he might be free of the whole sordid mess, he
had to be "dead". And so he was. Officially, at least...
--
Chris Meadows aka | Author, Team M.E.C.H.A., Crapshoot & Co.
Robotech_Master | on the Superguy Listserv (bit.listserv.superguy)
robo...@jurai.net | With a World Wide Web homepage located at
robo...@eyrie.org | http://www.jurai.net/~robotech/index.html
adsc...@ix.netcom.com
robo...@eyrie.org (Robotech_Master) wrote:
>He's alive.
No, he's dead.
>For one thing, indeed he is all bandaged up in that last scene. He's
You think that maybe he may have gotten hurt in those exploding flame
scenes at the end? Benny, the guy that was shot in the beginning by
the iceman, was almost blinded in that movie. If you run back the
scene when he jumps over the tables and the iceman gets up and shoots,
a squib (probably a blasting cap mixed in) explodes in his face and
nearly takes out his eyes. You can hear him groan and he is squinting
as he falls to the floor.
>sailing away because, for his role in the whole thing, he has to be
>"dead" lest someone want to take revenge on him. Furthermore, the
Sure, and I'm sure none of that was a symbol or metafor? Like the
chicken flying accross the scene in the beginning when CYF is chasing
iceman into the kitchen. Normally he uses a dove. Would'nt make
sense to have a live dove in a kitchen. Or a live chicken for that
matter.
>Hong Kong film article included as part of the "special extras" on the
>Criterion laserdisc release of Hard-Boiled specifically mentions that
>he is. (Although until I read this, I had thought that he was dead,
Woah, the definitive expert opinion. I guess john woo had very little
control into the making, production and writing of his movie then...
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ccn...@psu.edu (Chad Newton) wrote:
>Can someone fully explain it to me, was the undercover cop alive at the end
>and Chow and his cheif burned his records?
No, it was probably his spirt. A metafor.
>(didn't like this ending too much, especially when
>Chow has to slap himself)
It was hilarous.
It was meant as a joke. In fact, Woo's humorous content in his movies
is rarely appreciated.
Darin Nakamura
Chad Newton <ccn...@psu.edu> wrote in article <ccn103.9...@psu.edu>...
> Can someone fully explain it to me, was the undercover cop alive at the end
> and Chow and his cheif burned his records?
>
From the commentary track of the Criterion version of "Hardboiled".
John Woo:
"Tony Leung's character is an undercover cop. There were only two solutions for him: death or go into hiding. And according to treatment he should sacrifice himself to save everybody at the hospital. That kind of tragic ending was more consistent to my other films. However, after we shot the final shootout in the car park my dear producers Terence and Linda and even Chow Yun-fat and the whole crews [sic] they all suggested that Tony should live. They all thought we should create more hope and be more positive. Well, after all life should not be so pessimistic. Also, throughout several months of shooting we were almost like a big family and I really appreciate everybody's total involvement in the project. So I finally agree with them and shot the little epilogue where Tony Leung continues to chase after his dreams"
Darin N.
Mike Todd
adsc...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> robo...@eyrie.org (Robotech_Master) wrote:
>
> >For one thing, indeed he is all bandaged up in that last scene. He's
>
> You think that maybe he may have gotten hurt in those exploding flame
> scenes at the end? Benny, the guy that was shot in the beginning by
> the iceman, was almost blinded in that movie. If you run back the
> scene when he jumps over the tables and the iceman gets up and shoots,
> a squib (probably a blasting cap mixed in) explodes in his face and
> nearly takes out his eyes. You can hear him groan and he is squinting
> as he falls to the floor.
Huh? Are you saying it was Tony Leung who was bandaged and not the
character he was portraying? No, I don't think so.
> >Hong Kong film article included as part of the "special extras" on the
> >Criterion laserdisc release of Hard-Boiled specifically mentions that
> >he is. (Although until I read this, I had thought that he was dead,
>
> Woah, the definitive expert opinion. I guess john woo had very little
> control into the making, production and writing of his movie then...
Look, one of the previous posters on this thread said he didn't want to
see another flame war on this subject, so take it easy on the attitude.
"Robotech Master" was only telling you what he heard, not rendering an
"expert opinion".
If I remember correctly the Citerion article (or was it the additonal
voice-over commentary) stated that the film was originally shot with
Leung's character dying, but the final scene was added later.
Personally I think the ending would carry more weight without the end
scene on the boat.
_Mike_
Dosun1
The scene where CYF had to slap himself at the end of Hardboiled was NOT
meant as a joke. Though you may have found it hilarious, it was not meant
to be funny. I guess this has alot to do with the differences between
cultures. I myself was moved by CYF's willingness to humilate himself and
do anything for a friend. I guess its an Chinese thang. ;)
Mandheer Singh
>
> You think that maybe he may have gotten hurt in those exploding flame
> scenes at the end? Benny, the guy that was shot in the beginning by
This was settled earlier on this newsgroup. John Woo had initially wanted
Allan to die, but everybody (including cast and crew) felt dissapointed and
wanted Allen to live. Woo agreed (especially since CYF and TL wanted this
too).
It was printed in some interview with John Woo... The original poster may
still have the info... I don't...
Rick
HDCINORE
Tequila
Questions about manhood and virility are taken VERY seriously in asian
cultures, and of course that bit was NOT meant as anything but dead
serious and dramatic. As to the undercover cop being alive at the end,
well, yep he sure is. That is why you see him on his boat, throwing away
all his origami birds because he's throwing away his past, and he won't
be killing anymore.
Nick
Laughing Buddha
Let's get this straight:
Tony Leung (the undercover cop) DIES at the end. The last scene with
him on the boat is a fantasy/dream/heaven sequence much like the end of
FULL CONTACT, where CYF rides away; it's not meant to be taken
literally.
Laughing Buddha
I have not read that quote from Woo. But assuming it's true, by his own
admission it was clear that Tony Leung's character was supposed to die.
The fact that the boat sequence was added at the end so as to make the
movie less depressing, sounds like a gimmick to please audiences keen on
a happy ending.
But what difference does it make anyway? Whether he lives or dies,
whether it's a fantasy sequence or meant to be taken literally, it was a
way for Woo to have it both ways. Just like in FULL CONTACT, it matters
not whether CYF literally lives or dies. The point is that the journey
getting there was a hell of a lot of fun.
Laughing Buddha
Denise L. Voskuil wrote:
> Then explain the quote from Woo on the Criterion edition disc, where
> he says that they decided to shoot that ending so that Leung's
> character _lives_ and the end isn't as depressing. It's _not_ a
> fantasy sequence.
>
> - Denise
Mark Chang
Laughing Buddha (ism...@sure.net) wrote:
: Let's get this straight:
I guess that sounds good, but why was his arm in a sling? And
in Full Contact, wasn't CYF hurt really bad when he rode away.
If they are fantasy, dream, heaven sequence - sure doesn't look
that way :) - maybe more like happy ending sequence for the audience,
not the dead.
--
,+--------------------------------------------------------------+
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| Embedded Systems Software Engineer BIOLA 87, CSUF 91|+
| Creative Integrated Systems Inc. AACF Alumni|'
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+--------------------------------------------------------------+
Tri
adsc...@ix.netcom.com wrote in article
<5d323p$8...@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>...
> robo...@eyrie.org (Robotech_Master) wrote:
>
> >He's alive.
>
> No, he's dead.
>
> >For one thing, indeed he is all bandaged up in that last scene. He's
>
> You think that maybe he may have gotten hurt in those exploding flame
> scenes at the end? Benny, the guy that was shot in the beginning by
> the iceman, was almost blinded in that movie. If you run back the
> scene when he jumps over the tables and the iceman gets up and shoots,
> a squib (probably a blasting cap mixed in) explodes in his face and
> nearly takes out his eyes. You can hear him groan and he is squinting
> as he falls to the floor.
>
> >sailing away because, for his role in the whole thing, he has to be
> >"dead" lest someone want to take revenge on him. Furthermore, the
>
> Sure, and I'm sure none of that was a symbol or metafor? Like the
> chicken flying accross the scene in the beginning when CYF is chasing
> iceman into the kitchen. Normally he uses a dove. Would'nt make
> sense to have a live dove in a kitchen. Or a live chicken for that
> matter.
He's alive at the end of the movie.. you're looking for symbolism when
there is none. The only symbolism in the last scene is when he throws away
those paper doves into the water, meaning he's washing his hands of all the
blood and violence in his life. If Woo wanted it to be symbolically
representing his spirit, he wouldn't have bandaged him up and sent him to
Antartica.
Also, I don't think that the scene with CYF slapping himself was meant to
be funny.
John R. Meixner
Denise L. Voskuil wrote:
>
> On Tue, 04 Feb 1997 11:37:28 -0800, Laughing Buddha <ism...@sure.net>
> wrote:
> >Let's get this straight:
> >
> >Tony Leung (the undercover cop) DIES at the end. The last scene with
> >him on the boat is a fantasy/dream/heaven sequence much like the end of
> >FULL CONTACT, where CYF rides away; it's not meant to be taken
> >literally.
>
> he says that they decided to shoot that ending so that Leung's
> character _lives_ and the end isn't as depressing. It's _not_ a
> fantasy sequence.
>
> - Denise
>
> Denise L. Voskuil - dvoskuil@: mcs.com/eden.com/uic.edu
> *Remove the "NO_ADS" in my E-mail address to reply - I'm sick of
> spammers getting my address off of Usenet.*
> http://www.mcs.net/~dvoskuil/
> "In literature as in love, we are astonished at what is
> chosen by others." - Andre' Maurois
SPOILER: "My Heart is that Eternal Rose"
Has anyone else noted the similarity in the end of "Hardboiled" (1992)
to "My Heart is That Eternal Rose" (1988) in both of them if memory
serves my correctly Tony Leung Chiu-Wai leaves HK on a boat after
suffering a "fatal" injury. I'm not kncking either film they are both
among my favourites, but the similarity is striking.
-JRM-
--
John R. Meixner
Austin, Texas
Check out my Where to Find HK Films Homepage
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Towers/4736/WhereHKMV.htm
Rie Sheridan
I agree with the extreme sensitivity and strength shown in this scene.
Chow is brilliant -- and it is definitely not a joke -- I got that, and
I'm not Chinese...
..and by the way -- Tony also is obviously not dead in the end of this
movie -- there's no metaphor there, just a way out for a guy who needed a
break....
Rie Sheridan
fip...@aol.com
In article <32FA94...@ix.netcom.com>, "John R. Meixner"
<jmei...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>SPOILER: "My Heart is that Eternal Rose"
>
>Has anyone else noted the similarity in the end of "Hardboiled" (1992)
>to "My Heart is That Eternal Rose" (1988) in both of them if memory
>serves my correctly Tony Leung Chiu-Wai leaves HK on a boat after
>suffering a "fatal" injury. I'm not kncking either film they are both
>among my favourites, but the similarity is striking.
>-JRM-
>--
>John R. Meixner
now, come to think of it, they were pretty similar. both were on a boat,
both were looking at objects that reminded him of the past, and both
objects signified people.
Fipper
fip...@aol.com
In article <5de8uc$9...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, Rie Sheridan
<lello...@mail.utexas.edu> writes:
>break....
>
>Rie Sheridan
i have to butt in now. after reading all these posts regarding the ending,
no one even mentions the flashbacks of Tony that Chow and the Sargent (?)
had when they were burning Tony's record. what was up with that? i mean if
hes alive, wouldn't they be happy for him, because thats what he wanted
all along, to get out. what about the undercover that was killed in the
beginning.it was because of that Chow got upset when he found out about
Tony.Chow could've killed Tony and he furiously had explained to the
Sargent that he doesn't want another incident like that again - killing an
undercover in an accident or an ambush.
(man, all these posts makes me want to watch HB for like the 10th time)
Fipper
Scott Hamilton
> Denise L. Voskuil wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 04 Feb 1997 11:37:28 -0800, Laughing Buddha <ism...@sure.net>
> > wrote:
> > >Let's get this straight:
> > >
> > >Tony Leung (the undercover cop) DIES at the end. The last scene with
> > >him on the boat is a fantasy/dream/heaven sequence much like the end of
> > >FULL CONTACT, where CYF rides away; it's not meant to be taken
> > >literally.
Two points...
Tony Leung (ie Alan/Tony) was dead meat at the end of Hard Boiled. What
next? Jeff lived through the end of the Killer? He shows up in the last
shot of the film, after all!
I disagree, however, that Jeff (Chow Yun Fatt) died at the end of Full
Contact. He was just too bad to die! True, the screen blacks out, but only
after her remembers Mona, his reason for living.
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
|| "Being a misanthropist is
This Missive Was From: || hell on my social life" - Me
ScoPi in St.Petersburg ||
sco...@atlantic.net || "He learned too late that man
|| is a feeling animal"
|| - It Conquered the World
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
JohnTr...@grease.com
I think the character should die. Don't think that I didn't like the
character, because I did. I just think it gives the story a more surreal
feeling. The whole irony is that the Tony's character never got to get
outof the situation he was stuck in. He wanted so much to get out that
the only way he could was by death. There was also the chance of getting
away, but he wanted to sacrifice himself for teqila's face. It was a
very honorable deed. And I think tony should have died. Although part of
me wished he would live also. Don't we all feel that.
Did you guys understand any of that?
Dosun1
Yeah, he should have but he didn't. That was what the whole debate was
about, not whether he should have but if he actaully did or not. You
should watch the LD version of HB, the explanation Woo gives for the
decision to change the story and have im live at the end is fascinating.
Laughing Buddha
I've seen the Criterion Laser Disc version, and there's no interview
with John Woo regarding this issue. Where is it?
Xich Lo
Scott Hamilton wrote:
>
> Two points...
>
> Tony Leung (ie Alan/Tony) was dead meat at the end of Hard Boiled. What
> next? Jeff lived through the end of the Killer? He shows up in the last
> shot of the film, after all!
As has been said many times already, John Woo himself, in the running
commentary on the Hard-Boiled laserdisc, says that Alan lives at the
end, that he intentionally created a happy ending for the movie. The
only reason people seem to think he died is because John (Chow Yun Fat)
dies at the end of The Killer (note the use of John as his name, which
John Woo prefers to Jeff, over which he had no control). Now if John
Woo is not the final authority on this subject, I don't know who is.
Alan lives. Period. End of discussion.
HDCINORE
Okay, maybe you're right, but it was either very poor judgement or bad
film-making if so many people believe otherwise. I for one am going to
pretend he's dead every time I watch it. The "happy ending" way is
STUPID! By the way, for anyone who still thinks Tony's going to his
house in Guam, I know it's hard for English speakers (myself included)
to understand the nuances in Cantonese speech patterns, but I'm pretty
damn sure THEY WERE KIDDING.
Darin Nakamura
Laughing Buddha <ism...@sure.net> wrote in article <32FED6...@sure.net>...
> I've seen the Criterion Laser Disc version, and there's no interview
> with John Woo regarding this issue. Where is it?
>
This gets a little confusing but here goes:
First there are two versions of "The Killer" available. A deluxe CAV version and a regular
CLV version released later. I think the running commentary is available only on the CAV
version. If you have this version switch to Analog Track 2. Analog Track 1 is an English
dubbing of the movie. The specific commentary where Woo talks about deciding to let
Tony live begins just at Chow Yun Fat is knelling on the ground in front of Anthony Wong.
Darin N.
Darin Nakamura
Laughing Buddha <ism...@sure.net> wrote in article <32FED6...@sure.net>...
> I've seen the Criterion Laser Disc version, and there's no interview
> with John Woo regarding this issue. Where is it?
>
Oops! Thanks to Laughing Buddha. The mind thinks one thing and the hand does
another. I meant to say "Hardboiled" and not "The Killer". I don't even know if
a Criterion CLV version of "Hardboiled" exists. Anyway the track info and location
is correct. Boy, I've really got to learn to proofread!
Darin N.
Han Yu
And I think that's the reason they shot the last scene. It doesn't have
to be ... huh, real or unreal. It would be way too depressing for an
action movie like this, although just for the plot's sake, I agree,
Tony should die. (I guess this is a rather rare case, since most of the
time I would *love* to see a character die -- I just don't want them
have a life out of the film ;) -- that is, if they are chararcterized
well enough, But in this case I do have part of me wishing Tony's alive.)
Amy
(NO, *I* am the #1 T Leung CW fan!!!)
Chris Hayes
---Here's a possibility: Tony was an undercover cop, and he was "in too
deep". As a result, Tony would have to "fake his death", to escape
retaliation and live in peace. Therefore, "officially", Tony is dead,
yet we see him at the end in the boat. Makes sense to me.
Digital Men
Yes I agree cos i am chinese, i can understand the orginal film in
cantonese,yes the undercover cop is officially dead, that help tony to
have a new life in other name........