scanning money
Joseph M. Newcomer
collecting coins. I once was shown a counterfeit bill by our local
banker (actually, he gave me two bills, a nice, sharp, crisp bill and a
dirty old bill, and asked if I could tell which one was counterfeit.
The old bill was worn and smudged, but it was the newish one that was
counterfeit. A close inspection clearly showed which one was
counterfeit, and I got it right). There was a section in one of my
books about possession of counterfeit money; it turns out even as a
collector you can't own a counterfeit bill.
Counterfeiting has a fairly technical definition, which my memory says
relates to attempts to create coinage or negotiable instruments (which
include T-bills, stock certificates, etc.) with the intent to defraud.
At least one piece of folklore says that the Treasury Department forced
Xerox to "detune" their color copier so it couldn't copy money well
enough to pass it off or use it in a changing machine, although this is
folklore. What /isn't/ folklore is a requirement that any print shop
possessing a halftone screen at 300dpi or greater had to register with
the Treasury Department; this was from a friend who was trying to find a
printer that could do very accurate reproduction of the colors of some
fine artworks and retain detail. Only the larger (and more expensive)
printing houses could do the fineness of reproduction because they could
deal with the hassle of the 300dpi screens.
Since bits are not a representation that can be used to defraud anyone,
I suspect that under current laws (which of course lag technology) that
scanning a bill in is not illegal. However, the question of printing it
is more serious; under several (apparently valid) interpretations of the
law, printing that representation on a high-quality printer, even in
monochrome, even just one side, could squarely and solidly violate
Federal law with all of the seriously nasty penalties appertaining
thereunto. It is an interesting question as to whether or not putting
such a scanned image out for anonymous FTP could be a crime; I certainly
would not want to be the one to perform this experiment on the legal
system. (In looking at a bill from my pocket, I nowhere see the
"copyright" symbol or notice that it is illegal to scan this object
/into/ a database; for example, it /is/ illegal to even scan in a
copyrighted work unless you have either assigned rights or can
demonstrate that your use falls under the "fair use" clause; see the
colophon of any contemporary book for the exact wording).
Note that it may /not/ be illegal to display the bitmap in any way that
is /not/ an evident attempt to counterfeit; for example to display it on
a CRT may be legal. Printing it with a different color map (purple and
orange ink instead of green and black) may construably be legal (if you
have a good attorney...)
Disclaimer: I am not an attorney; this is not legal advice; it is a lay
person's opinion. Run, do not walk, to your nearest real attorney.
joe
Michael A. Covington
legal ways to represent money are:
(a) In black-and-white, on paper,
enlarged at least 1.5x or reduced at least 0.75x;
(b) In color on a transparency, CRT, or projection screen.
This is rather old information, but I doubt that it has changed much.
--
-------------------------------------------------------
Michael A. Covington | Artificial Intelligence Programs
The University of Georgia | Athens, GA 30602 U.S.A.
-------------------------------------------------------
Norman Diamond
>There was a section in one of my books about possession of counterfeit
>money; it turns out even as a collector you can't own a counterfeit bill.
>[...]
>Counterfeiting has a fairly technical definition, which my memory says
>relates to attempts to create coinage or negotiable instruments (which
>include T-bills, stock certificates, etc.) with the intent to defraud.
This seems contradictory. If the collector's intent is not to defraud,
then how does the law apply? (I don't know the correct answer either.)
--
Norman Diamond dia...@tkov50.enet.dec.com
If this were the company's opinion, I wouldn't be allowed to post it.
Permission is granted to feel this signature, but not to look at it.
Harry Herman
>In article <ccHc1Ea00...@andrew.cmu.edu> jn...@andrew.cmu.edu (Joseph M. Newcomer) writes:
>>(In looking at a bill from my pocket, I nowhere see the
>>"copyright" symbol or notice that it is illegal to scan this object
>>/into/ a database;
>But, isn't a bill, according to the Berne convention, copyrighted anyway ? I
>don't assume that US bills contain a notice "This work is in the public domain",
>or a General Public License from the Free Money Foundation :-)
>Matthias
>-----
>Matthias Neeracher ne...@iis.ethz.ch
> "These days, though, you have to be pretty technical before you can
> even aspire to crudeness." -- William Gibson, _Johnny Mnemonic_
I saw an article in the newspaper the other day that said the U.S.
Treasury is going to change all the dollars (except the $1.00 bill) to
include "invisible threads" or something similar to make copying them
with color copiers,etc. harder. Seems these threads won't be noticable
on the original, but will stand out somehow when copied. I assume
that scanners would also be affected.
I originally heard about this being considered a few years ago, but the
article claimed this was definitely going to happen (phased in over a
few years), as the Treasury is becoming more concerned about the large
number of color copiers available today.
Harry Herman
herman@corpane
cate...@pirates.armstrong.edu
If so then Penn & Teller are a good source for these strings should
the need arise. They'll even show you a few magic tricks you can show
your friends before you use them to copy cash. ;^)
Colin Dente
>
>In article <ccHc1Ea00...@andrew.cmu.edu> jn...@andrew.cmu.edu (Joseph M. Newcomer) writes:
>>(In looking at a bill from my pocket, I nowhere see the
>>"copyright" symbol or notice that it is illegal to scan this object
>>/into/ a database;
>But, isn't a bill, according to the Berne convention, copyrighted anyway ? I
>don't assume that US bills contain a notice "This work is in the public domain",
>or a General Public License from the Free Money Foundation :-)
I think (I don't have one on me - so I can't check right now) that the
new five pound notes in the UK actually have a copyright notice on
them (its either copyright The Bank of England or HMG). I recall
wondering whether the government was contemplating sueing
counterfeiters for breach of copyright rather than prosecuting for
fraud ;-)
Colin
--
Colin Dente | JANET: de...@uk.ac.man.ee.els
Manchester Computing Centre | ARPA: de...@els.ee.man.ac.uk
University of Manchester, UK | UUCP: ...!mcsun!ukc!manchester!dente
... I am the one you warned me of ...
Anthony A. Datri
>wondering whether the government was contemplating sueing
>counterfeiters for breach of copyright rather than prosecuting for
>fraud ;-)
I wouldn't be suprised -- there are some states in the US who tax illegal drugs.
Yes, one can actually buy the tax stamps without prosecution, but few do. The
intent is explicitly to help nab drug traffickers on tax-evasion charges.
--
Fly to the sky on GI-GI____________ and shout to
da...@convex.com
der Mouse
> In article <ccHc1Ea00...@andrew.cmu.edu> jn...@andrew.cmu.edu (Joseph M. Newcomer) writes:
>> There was a section in one of my books about possession of
>> counterfeit money; it turns out even as a collector you can't own a
>> counterfeit bill.
>> Counterfeiting has a fairly technical definition, which my memory
>> says relates to attempts to create coinage or negotiable instruments
>> (which include T-bills, stock certificates, etc.) with the intent to
>> defraud.
> This seems contradictory. If the collector's intent is not to
> defraud, then how does the law apply?
The collector does not create the false instrument with intent to
defraud, and is thus not guilty of couterfeiting. Since the collector
does not attempt to pass the forgery off as the real thing, it is not
guilty of that ("uttering", is it? or do I have it confused?) either;
there is no intent to defraud on the collector's part.
Perhaps our recently-arrived[%] friend could dig up the book and
enlighten us as to just what law *is* being violated by a collector who
keeps a known-false bill? Or anyone else, for that matter, this being
a folklore group, after all?
[%] :-)
der Mouse
old: mcgill-vision!mouse
new: mo...@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
ol...@xn.ll.mit.edu
>I saw an article in the newspaper the other day that said the U.S.
>Treasury is going to change all the dollars (except the $1.00 bill) to
>include "invisible threads" or something similar to make copying them
What I heard on the radio is that the new paper will have a watermark
(visible when held up to a light) reading "USA". New $100 bills will
get the watermark first, then $50 bills, and so on.
|S| Florian Dingler
> new five pound notes in the UK actually have a copyright notice on
> them (its either copyright The Bank of England or HMG). I recall
> wondering whether the government was contemplating sueing
> counterfeiters for breach of copyright rather than prosecuting for
> fraud ;-)
>
German Money HAS a copyright message on it. It says '(c) DEUTSCHE BUNDESBANK'
and a years date (1961, i think the design was created then).
f.
Jeffrey T Berntsen
>I think (I don't have one on me - so I can't check right now) that the
>new five pound notes in the UK actually have a copyright notice on
>them (its either copyright The Bank of England or HMG). I recall
>wondering whether the government was contemplating sueing
>counterfeiters for breach of copyright rather than prosecuting for
>fraud ;-)
I'd assume they could do both at the same time and get stiffer penalties as
a result.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey T. Berntsen | Looking for a good .sig
je...@world.std.com |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
W.C. Bulte
_ __________________________________________________________________________
| / o / / _ Wilko Bulte Domain: wi...@idca.tds.philips.nl
|/|/ / / /( (_) System Engineering uucp : [mcsun,hp4nl]!philapd!wilko
* Philips Information Systems Nederland phone: +31 55-432372 fax: +31 55-432103
"Do, or do not. There is no 'try'" Yoda - The Empire Strikes Back
________________________________________________________________________________
Nick Felisiak
>I think (I don't have one on me - so I can't check right now) that the
>new five pound notes in the UK actually have a copyright notice on
>them (its either copyright The Bank of England or HMG).
> [ ... ]
It's "(c) The govenor and company of the bank of England 1990".
The new five pound note was developed principally to defeat the
new generation of colour copiers. I think a Canon copier featured as
arch enemy in an article about the designers of the note. Apparently
they've put patterns in it which are related to the optical characteristics
of the copier, so the copy quality is bad. I don't understand the details,
and presumably they won't tell us. Also, I'm not sure if the next good
copier from Xerox or whoever won't have different characteristics?
I can't make an image available for anon FTP, but I'll gladly send
one to anybody for a $20 handling fee :-).
Nick
--
Nick Felisiak ni...@spider.co.uk
Spider Systems Ltd +44 31 554 9424
hoskinsa
>In article <ccHc1Ea00...@andrew.cmu.edu> jn...@andrew.cmu.edu (Joseph M. Newcomer) writes:
>>"copyright" symbol or notice that it is illegal to scan this object
>>/into/ a database;
>
>don't assume that US bills contain a notice "This work is in the public domain",
>or a General Public License from the Free Money Foundation :-)
The new UK five pound note has a copyright message, this was apparently
triggered by an artist putting on an exhibition of paintings of paper
money.
The (disgusting, IMHO) colour scheme used was chosen because colour
photocopiers find it hard to reproduce the colours chosen. The man
responsible for choosing the colours spent some time travelling around
trade fairs, trying out test sheets in colour photocopiers.
Asher
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
| And then a little pink swan flew slowly past, the marmalade |
| curdled, and everyone in Legoland went home for a concrete |
| penguin. "Don't forget to write", shouted Sniffy, but the cake |
| had already been eaten. - BSH |
+-----------------------------------------------+----------------+-----------+
| hosk...@prl.philips.co.uk |
+----------------------------+
Matthew Farwell
>In article <26...@m1.cs.man.ac.uk> de...@els.ee.man.ac.uk (Colin Dente) writes:
>>I think (I don't have one on me - so I can't check right now) that the
>>new five pound notes in the UK actually have a copyright notice on
>>them (its either copyright The Bank of England or HMG).
>> [ ... ]
>It's "(c) The govenor and company of the bank of England 1990".
>
>The new five pound note was developed principally to defeat the
>new generation of colour copiers. I think a Canon copier featured as
>arch enemy in an article about the designers of the note. Apparently
>they've put patterns in it which are related to the optical characteristics
>of the copier, so the copy quality is bad. I don't understand the details,
>and presumably they won't tell us. Also, I'm not sure if the next good
>copier from Xerox or whoever won't have different characteristics?
I remember seeing the Horizon on this.
When you actually look at a fiver, the amount of detail is incredible.
The two main things i remember about beating photocopiers were the
colours - they chose the colours that present photocopiers copied worst
- and the concentric circles centred on Robert Stephenson's Right eye,
which produces interference patterns on photocopiers apparently. I just
photocopied one, and it doesn't photocopy at all well in black + white.
There's also stuff like the note numbers (ie the J24 566440) are
slightly different sizes, which along with the watermarking, the overall
feel of the paper and the metallic strip means the note is very very
hard to forge.
I think this is getting a little away from alt.folklore.computers
though.
Dylan.
--
Matthew J Farwell: dy...@ibmpcug.co.uk || ...!uunet!ukc!ibmpcug!dylan
But you're wrong Steve. You see, its only solitaire.
Hans Mulder
>In <NEERI.91J...@iis.ethz.ch> ne...@iis.ethz.ch (Matthias Ulrich Neeracher) writes:
>>In article <ccHc1Ea00...@andrew.cmu.edu> jn...@andrew.cmu.edu (Joseph M. Newcomer) writes:
>>>(In looking at a bill from my pocket, I nowhere see the "copyright" symbol
>I think (I don't have one on me - so I can't check right now) that the
>new five pound notes in the UK actually have a copyright notice on
>them (its either copyright The Bank of England or HMG). I recall
>wondering whether the government was contemplating sueing
>counterfeiters for breach of copyright rather than prosecuting for
>fraud ;-)
Dutch bank notes are copyrighted. And the Dutch Bank NV has actually won
a copyright suit:
Some time ago, I think it was in the 1970's, a shop owner in Nieuwegein
started spreading pieces of paper that looked vaguely like 25 guilder
notes, except that they were made of a different kind of paper, not quite
the same shade of red, they showed the face of this shop owner, rather
than whatever head the old 25 guilder notes used to show, and the reverse
was completely different: it advised you to come and visit his store, rather
than informing you about section 208 of the penal code, about counterfeit.
(A prison term of at most nine years, if you really want to know.)
Nevertheless, people managed to pass these flyers off for real money.
As it happens, the legal definition of counterfeit in section 208 requires
intent to defraud. In this case, there was obviously no such intent; thus
they could not prosecute him for counterfeit.
Instead the Dutch Bank NV sued him for copyright infringement, and won.
--
Happy hacking,
Hans Mulder ha...@fwi.uva.nl
Alan J Rosenthal
>I saw an article in the newspaper the other day that said the U.S.
>Treasury is going to change all the dollars (except the $1.00 bill) to
>include "invisible threads" or something similar to make copying them
>with color copiers,etc. harder.
Current Canadian $50s (printed within the last year or two) have a foil patch
on them, so that if you photocopy them the result is completely different than
the original -- you get all paper instead of foil. Very noticeable. (I think
$100s do too, but the two of them I got today to pay for a course were old
ones.)
Blair P. Houghton
>Interestingly, Swiss paper money _is_ copyrighted -- there are tiny
>copyright notices in the margin. I'm surprised this isn't more common...
In many countries (though only recently in the US), works
of art (any kind of "art", i.e., artifice) are copyrighted
at creation, and the declaimers are merely clarifications
that the rights are reserved and to whom and for how long.
I.e., leaving the notification off the object does not
place it in the public domain, nor does failure to
prosecute infringements of the copyright.
--Blair
"TM"
Matthew Baker
The Australian Treasury reasonably recently introduced plastic $10 notes
as a sort of tentative test (all of the ATM ownders complained like mad
because the stupid ATMs can't handle them of course).
The note itself is made of a very rugged and resilient plastic, of about
the same thickness as cartridge paper, with a transparent section which
contains a a hologram of Captain Cook. Unfortunately, the first batch had
a serious problem, in that the hologram rubbed off 8).
The note itself, however, seems to be extremely resistant to damage - I have
tried (quite hard) to tear one with no appreciable success, likewise, it
seems reasonably heat resistant, and _remarkably_ UV stable (2 months in
summer sunlight here in South Oz and not even _slightly_ faded.)
Of course, this note would be _extremely_ difficult to duplicate. 8)
Matthew
John Hughes
... (In looking at a bill from my pocket, I nowhere see the
"copyright" symbol or notice that it is illegal to scan this object
/into/ a database; for example, it /is/ illegal to even scan in a
copyrighted work unless you have either assigned rights or can
demonstrate that your use falls under the "fair use" clause; see the
colophon of any contemporary book for the exact wording).
...
This sort of question came up in the UK a few years ago, an artist used
reproductions of money in a picture, they tried to get him for forgery,
the case was thrown out.
As a result of this the new 5 pound note is copyright!
I've seen other copyrighted bank notes, Belgian Francs or Marks, I can't
remember which.
Great, not only do they throw you in prison, they sue you for breach of
copyright as well!
Larry Campbell
-"copyright" symbol or notice that it is illegal to scan this object
-/into/ a database; for example, it /is/ illegal to even scan in a
-copyrighted work unless you have either assigned rights or can
-demonstrate that your use falls under the "fair use" clause; see the
-colophon of any contemporary book for the exact wording).
Interestingly, Swiss paper money _is_ copyrighted -- there are tiny
copyright notices in the margin. I'm surprised this isn't more common...
--
Larry Campbell The Boston Software Works, Inc., 120 Fulton Street
camp...@redsox.bsw.com Boston, Massachusetts 02109 (USA)
Tim Roberts
>>them (its either copyright The Bank of England or HMG). I recall
>>wondering whether the government was contemplating sueing
>>counterfeiters for breach of copyright rather than prosecuting for
>>fraud ;-)
>
>I wouldn't be suprised -- there are some states in the US who tax illegal
>drugs. Yes, one can actually buy the tax stamps without prosecution, but few
>do. The intent is explicitly to help nab drug traffickers on tax-evasion
>charges.
When I got my secret clearance, I was amused by some of the conditions I agreed
to in the fine print.
Paragraph (N): I hereby promise I will never, ever write a book using the
classified information I might learn.
Paragraph (N+1): If I do write a book using classified knowledge, I hereby
agree to transfer all profits to the government.
When I asked about this, sure enough some previous version of the form omitted
paragraph (N+1), and some nasty fellow had written a book and gone to jail,
then retired comfortably on the profits when he got out.
Not any more!
--
ti...@gssc.gss.com Tim N Roberts, CCP Graphic Software Systems
Beaverton, OR
This is a very long palindrome. .emordnilap gnol yrev a si sihT
Rich Alderson
I believe that, under U. S. law at least, the knowing retention of counterfeit
money is prima facie evidence of an intent to use it. That is, if you learn
that money in your possession is counterfeit, and you do not immediately, or as
soon as at all practicable, take action to turn it in to the authorities, you
are as guilty as if you had printed it yourself with the express purpose of
fraud.
Not a lawyer, just an old coin collector...
--
Rich Alderson 'I wish life was not so short,' he thought. 'Languages take
Tops-20 Mgr. such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
AIR, Stanford --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alde...@alderson.stanford.edu _The Lost Road_
Paul Campbell
>I think (I don't have one on me - so I can't check right now) that the
>new five pound notes in the UK actually have a copyright notice on
>them (its either copyright The Bank of England or HMG). I recall
>wondering whether the government was contemplating sueing
>counterfeiters for breach of copyright rather than prosecuting for
>fraud ;-)
No it's because there is this artist (whose name escapes me) who goes around
the world creating money as art - for example he will draw a 5 pound note
by hand go into a store and say - "I am an artist - here is a drawing of
a 5 pound note, will you barter my art for this lovely clock in the window"
(his renderings are very good, sometimes he embelishes, changes faces on bills
etc etc) he is always very up front that he has drawn the money himself,
his art work is now worth much more than face value. Anyway while in
England a few years ago he was arrested for counterfeiting - in front of the
judge he explained what he was doing and got off - the result is the marking
of a copyright notice on the bills to discourage this sort of thing ....
Paul
PS: of course in Oz they have cartoonists design the money anyway :-)
--
Paul Campbell UUCP: ..!mtxinu!taniwha!paul AppleLink: CAMPBELL.P
Tom Metzger's White Ayrian Resistance has been enjoined to stop selling Nazi
Bart Simpson t-shirts - Tom of course got it wrong, Bart is yellow, not white.
pan...@st1.vuw.ac.nz
> In article <NEERI.91J...@iis.ethz.ch> ne...@iis.ethz.ch (Matthias Ulrich Neeracher) writes:
>>In article <ccHc1Ea00...@andrew.cmu.edu> jn...@andrew.cmu.edu (Joseph M. Newcomer) writes:
>>>(In looking at a bill from my pocket, I nowhere see the
>>>"copyright" symbol or notice that it is illegal to scan this object
>>>/into/ a database;
>>
>>But, isn't a bill, according to the Berne convention, copyrighted anyway ? I
>>don't assume that US bills contain a notice "This work is in the public domain",
>>or a General Public License from the Free Money Foundation :-)
>
> The new UK five pound note has a copyright message, this was apparently
> triggered by an artist putting on an exhibition of paintings of paper
> money.
>
> The (disgusting, IMHO) colour scheme used was chosen because colour
> photocopiers find it hard to reproduce the colours chosen.
>
Our New Zealand money has no copyright printed on it, but the notes do have
watermarks. Last I heard, it didn't matter how good a colour photocopier
was, you still couldn't copy watermarks.
I have noticed a redesign of the style on some of the newer bills, though.
I remember hearing something about the reasons a while back, but I can't for
the life of me remember whether this had anything to do with it.
Rodger
Gourdol Arnaud
In article <1991Jun13.1...@donau.et.tudelft.nl> wo...@dutecai.et.tudelft.nl (;Rogier Wolff) writes:
>
>Yes. Same here in Holland. One little thing: Just about nobody checks the
>watermarks everytime they get a note. Dutch banks and large shops also
>check the watermarks using a UV lamp.
>
> Roger.
Well, french notes too have a watermark for a long time, but
no copyright license.
French notes are going to change soon. They will be made
with a different paper, harder to copy, and their shape
is going to change too. They will be same height, but a
different length according to their value. Don't know
however the reason of this change.
Arno.
--
/=============================//===================================/
/ Arno Gourdol. // On the Netland: Gou...@imag.fr /
/ "A keyboard ! How quaint !" -- Scott, Star Trek /
/=============================//===================================/
Bernie Cosell
}In article <1991Jun7.0...@tkou02.enet.dec.com>, dia...@jit533.swstokyo.dec.com (Norman Diamond) writes:
}> In article <ccHc1Ea00...@andrew.cmu.edu> jn...@andrew.cmu.edu (Joseph M. Newcomer) writes:
}>> There was a section in one of my books about possession of
}>> counterfeit money; it turns out even as a collector you can't own a
}>> counterfeit bill.
}>> Counterfeiting has a fairly technical definition,...
the problem here is that you're assuming that the crime you would be
violating by possessing counterfeit money is "conterfeiting", but that
is not the case [and hence the confusion].
}The collector does not create the false instrument with intent to
}defraud, and is thus not guilty of couterfeiting....
Just so... the point is that counterfeit bills are defined to be contraband,
and so the seizure of the stuff, and the criminal aspect for knowingly
keeping the stuff, derives from the same basic legal thread as that for
dealing with smuggled goods or drugs or the like.
/Bernie\
;Rogier Wolff
>Our New Zealand money has no copyright printed on it, but the notes do have
>watermarks. Last I heard, it didn't matter how good a colour photocopier
>was, you still couldn't copy watermarks.
>Rodger
Steve Austin
->stuff del'd
->> I think (I don't have one on me - so I can't check right now) that the
->> new five pound notes in the UK actually have a copyright notice on
->> them (its either copyright The Bank of England or HMG). I recall
->> wondering whether the government was contemplating sueing
->> counterfeiters for breach of copyright rather than prosecuting for
->> fraud ;-)
->>
->Just to give a word into the discussion:
->German Money HAS a copyright message on it. It says '(c) DEUTSCHE BUNDESBANK'
->and a years date (1961, i think the design was created then).
I seem to remember that the French have really perfected the idea. French
notes have a reference to the appropriate law that is being broken and
then states the penalty for counterfieting - they lock you away for ever.
It's kind of poetic as anybody manually forging a note will have to
painstakingly scribe this message. No cries of "oh, is it that serious"
from the dock on sentencing.
Steve Austin
Tom Neff
anyone looked at the MS-DOS 5.0 packaging? Microsoft is so obsessed
about counterfeiters that they've put
* a hologram sticker on the outside of their cardboard box (but under
the outermost shrinkwrap);
* an INNER box, also shrinkwrapped, with its own (different) hologram
sticker;
* a WINDOW on the outer box so you can look in and see the sticker on
the INNER box;
* A stern paragraph on the back of the outer box, visible through the
shrinkwrap, warning "MS-DOS users" that the two holograms are our
assurance that this is the genuine Microsoft article; if they're not
visible, contact your dealer immediately, etc, etc.
I'm sitting here looking at all this and thinking -- Suppose I'm a
counterfeiter knocking off copies of MS-DOS 5.0. Do they expect me to
INCLUDE that warning paragraph on my counterfeit copies?! Suuure! More
likely I'd include a big warning: "ONLY copies bearing the Bart Simpson
tattoo are genuine! Accept no other!"
I mean, at best, all this junk ensures that a Microsoft snoop could
examine a pile of product and tell whether it's genuine or not. But I
bet they could do that anyway! That's what they're paid for. As for
the rest of us, we tend to buy what the dealer hands us unless it looks
too OBVIOUSLY crude.
What happens one fine sunny day when MS decides some other
identification method works better, and the holograms go away on the
legitimate item? Will stores refuse to stock the "bogus" product? :-)
--
Canadians eat only buffalo and beer pie: Live in a /\ Tom Neff
vast barren land: Consume 6 billion dollars of alcohol \/ tn...@bfmny0.BFM.COM
per year: Always say "What will be, will be": Canadian /\ uunet!bfmny0!tneff
facts -- courtesy of Republic of China Tourist Bureau \/
Terry Kennedy, Operations Mgr.
> I'm sitting here looking at all this and thinking -- Suppose I'm a
> counterfeiter knocking off copies of MS-DOS 5.0. Do they expect me to
> INCLUDE that warning paragraph on my counterfeit copies?! Suuure! More
> likely I'd include a big warning: "ONLY copies bearing the Bart Simpson
> tattoo are genuine! Accept no other!"
Usually the counterfeit copies claim to be an OEM version of the product.
A popular target seems to be DTK. I've seen both real DTK versions of DOS
and Windows and counterfeit ones. If you have any background in printing,
the fakes are really easy to spot - the printers didn't have access to the
original color seps, so they re-seperated from a printed box. The resulting
print looks "fuzzy".
> I mean, at best, all this junk ensures that a Microsoft snoop could
> examine a pile of product and tell whether it's genuine or not. But I
> bet they could do that anyway! That's what they're paid for. As for
> the rest of us, we tend to buy what the dealer hands us unless it looks
> too OBVIOUSLY crude.
For a while, Microsoft was encouraging users to try to buy MS-DOS from
computer dealers without buying a system (this was back when they didn't
sell it in stores). If you turned in your dealer, you got some goodies
from Microsoft (they wanted the bar-coded serial number sticker from the
bottom of the box).
Terry Kennedy Operations Manager, Academic Computing
te...@spcvxa.bitnet St. Peter's College, US
te...@spcvxa.spc.edu (201) 915-9381
P.S. - You forgot the best part of the retail MS-DOS 5.0 upgrade - it isn't
bootable! You have to have an older version of DOS to get going - that's
why the call it an "upgrade".
;Rogier Wolff
>French notes are going to change soon. They will be made
>with a different paper, harder to copy, and their shape
>is going to change too. They will be same height, but a
>different length according to their value. Don't know
>however the reason of this change.
Very good idea. We have that kind of paper money already a long time
here in holland. This system does have a problem when new face
values are added: the sequence is calculated in advance, knowing that
there are no plans to insert new values the next 10 years, however 15
years later.....
Rogier.
Roland Eriksson
>de...@els.ee.man.ac.uk (Colin Dente) writes:
>>I think (I don't have one on me - so I can't check right now) that the
>>new five pound notes in the UK actually have a copyright notice on
>>them (its either copyright The Bank of England or HMG). I recall
>>wondering whether the government was contemplating sueing
>>counterfeiters for breach of copyright rather than prosecuting for
>>fraud ;-)
>I'd assume they could do both at the same time and get stiffer penalties as
>a result.
I am no law expert, BUT i have been told that common practice in countries
with a western law tradition (that should include boot Germany and the UK, boot
countries with copyright on money) is that the worst crime comitted decides
the penalty if it is bad enough compared to the simpler crime. Then there
will be no worse penalty for counterfeiting in countries with copyright on
their bills. The main advantage with copyright on money is that it clearly
prevents ALL kinds of copying (digitizing for instance or publishing good
copies of money in magazines that -if cut out- could be used in questionable
ways). One interesting example could be the company in Stockholm (Sweden)
that sold toilet paper with printing looking like Swedish 100 kronor bills
about twenty years ago. Those bil....toiletpaper locked good, but the width
to height proportions and (of course) the paper quality was not right...
They got nailed as long as i can remember (i was about 10 years old then).
With the current laws here in Sweden, i don't think that was right really,
if the Swedish Riksbanken (=Bank of Sweden) could have fixed that with a
little copyright note.
Roland.
--
+--------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
| Roland Eriksson | Programmers will *ALLWAYS* find new, |
| rol...@yyc.docs.uu.se | creative AND mindboggling ways to |
| rol...@kuling.docs.uu.se| use EVERY single byte and cycle |
Ralf....@b.gp.cs.cmu.edu
}->German Money HAS a copyright message on it. It says '(c) DEUTSCHE BUNDESBANK'
}->and a years date (1961, i think the design was created then).
}
}I seem to remember that the French have really perfected the idea. French
}notes have a reference to the appropriate law that is being broken and
}then states the penalty for counterfieting - they lock you away for ever.
So does German money (minimum sentence two years for counterfeiting and/or
passing off counterfeit bills).
--
{backbone}!cs.cmu.edu!ralf ARPA: RA...@CS.CMU.EDU FIDO: Ralf Brown 1:129/53
BITnet: RALF%CS.CMU.EDU@CARNEGIE AT&Tnet: (412)268-3053 (school) FAX: ask
DISCLAIMER? Did | It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's
I claim something?| what we know that ain't so. --Will Rogers
Nick Felisiak
>Speaking of holograms, transparent sections and all that nonsense, has
>anyone looked at the MS-DOS 5.0 packaging? Microsoft is so obsessed
>about counterfeiters that they've put
>
Aside from the question of why anyone would want to copy the junk, we
have a cupboard here full of unopened MS-DrOsS boxes (and Windows and ...)
that came 'free' with the no-name PC's we use here. Of course, we put
an operating system on them instead.
Is this not normal practice?
Blair P. Houghton
>The main advantage with copyright on money is that it clearly
>prevents ALL kinds of copying (digitizing for instance or publishing good
>copies of money in magazines that -if cut out- could be used in questionable
>ways).
I'm surprised that I (and especially anyone not I) didn't
notice earlier, but the real advantage to explicit
copyright is that publishers or advertisers who desire to
do this sort of incorporation of the government's art
(check out any financial magazine--or Newsweek, for that
matter--it happens a LOT) will now be prompted to contact
the government for permission and *to pay the royalty* on
the copy... I bet someone at the treasury had a massive
light-bulb go on over his head when he realized they were
chasing the wrong people for the wrong reasons...
--Blair
"'Death and taxes' may be all there
is, but at least death doesn't
come around looking for more..."
Tom Neff
>In article <4694...@bfmny0.BFM.COM>, tn...@bfmny0.BFM.COM (Tom Neff) writes:
>> I'm sitting here looking at all this and thinking -- Suppose I'm a
>> counterfeiter knocking off copies of MS-DOS 5.0. Do they expect me to
>> INCLUDE that warning paragraph on my counterfeit copies?! Suuure! More
>> likely I'd include a big warning: "ONLY copies bearing the Bart Simpson
>> tattoo are genuine! Accept no other!"
>
> Usually the counterfeit copies claim to be an OEM version of the product.
>A popular target seems to be DTK. I've seen both real DTK versions of DOS
>and Windows and counterfeit ones. If you have any background in printing,
>the fakes are really easy to spot - the printers didn't have access to the
>original color seps, so they re-seperated from a printed box. The resulting
>print looks "fuzzy".
I would just point out that in this age of desktop publishing, it's
pretty easy to turn out convincing "package copy" without photocopying.
Kenneth Ng
: French notes are going to change soon.[edit]
: [edit] They will be same height, but a
: however the reason of this change.
Perhaps so that the blind can find determine demonations?
--
Kenneth Ng
Please reply to k...@hertz.njit.edu until this machine properly recieves mail.
"No problem, here's how you build it" -- R. Barclay, ST: TNG
Tom Neff
>In article <22...@imag.imag.fr>, gou...@imag.imag.fr (Gourdol Arnaud) writes:
>: French notes are going to change soon.[edit]
>: [edit] They will be same height, but a
>: different length according to their value. Don't know
>: however the reason of this change.
>
>Perhaps so that the blind can find determine demonations?
How would differing lengths help the blind to find denominations? If I
hand you a 20, how do you know which one it is -- compare it to one of
every other kind of bill, which you conveniently happen to be carrying?
I would thing Braille embossing in the corners would be much better.
Joseph C Wang
is so that you won't be able to bleach the small bills to get the paper to
counterfeit the larger ones.
Does this make any sense?
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Wang (j...@athena.mit.edu) Wake Up! Wake Up!
450 Memorial Drive C-111 All who wish not to be slaves.
Cambridge, MA 02139
Douglas Martin
>How would differing lengths help the blind to find denominations? If I
>hand you a 20, how do you know which one it is -- compare it to one of
>every other kind of bill, which you conveniently happen to be carrying?
would take a while to memorize the sizes (number of finger widths comes to
mind, but it wouldn't surprise me if other "tricks" developed). Can you tell
difference between a nickle and a dime without looking?
>
>I would thing Braille embossing in the corners would be much better.
flattened all the bumps.
--
dou...@cs.ualberta.ca
73547...@compuserve.com
Dik T. Winter
have different length.)
Currently there are already different billsizes in use in France. Although
10 Fr and 20 Fr are equal sized, 50 Fr is larger. On the other hand the
size of the current 10 Fr bill differs from the previous one.
In article <1991Jun18....@cs.UAlberta.CA> dou...@cs.UAlberta.CA (Douglas Martin) writes:
> In article <3261...@bfmny0.BFM.COM> tn...@bfmny0.BFM.COM (Tom Neff) writes:
> >How would differing lengths help the blind to find denominations? If I
> >hand you a 20, how do you know which one it is -- compare it to one of
> >every other kind of bill, which you conveniently happen to be carrying?
> I really think you are underestimating the talents of the blind! Sure, it
> would take a while to memorize the sizes (number of finger widths comes to
> mind, but it wouldn't surprise me if other "tricks" developed). Can you tell
> difference between a nickle and a dime without looking?
Right.
> >
> >I would thing Braille embossing in the corners would be much better.
> sure, for the first few months of the bills life, until wear and tear
> flattened all the bumps.
Still this is the way (somewhat) Dutch money has gone. Although all bills
have a different size, they are also marked with different numbers of circles,
square and triangles you are able to feel. These are printed with thick ink.
Oh, and they also have a (not feelable) copyright mark, although that is not
really necessary. They also fully quote the law about counterfeiting money
(upto 9 years of imprisonment).
--
dik t. winter, cwi, amsterdam, nederland
d...@cwi.nl
Wayne Doust
>In article <3261...@bfmny0.BFM.COM> tn...@bfmny0.BFM.COM (Tom Neff) writes:
>>How would differing lengths help the blind to find denominations? If I
In australia, our notes are different sizes, there is a piece of plastic
the blind use to match the notes against and determine the value of the
note.
Wayne
--
"Esk, in fact, moved through the fair more like an arsonist moves through
a hayfield or a neutron bounces through a reactor, poets notwithstanding,
and the hypothetical watcher could have detected her random passage by
tracing the outbreaks of hysteria and violence." Equal Rites by T. Pratchett
Terry Kennedy, Operations Mgr.
> I would just point out that in this age of desktop publishing, it's
> pretty easy to turn out convincing "package copy" without photocopying.
Indeed. I recently observed one of my consulting clients spend 6 hours in
Ventura (with untold dozens of draft copies output to the laser printer)
making up a new "Please turn off and clean the coffee pot at the close of
the day" sign for his office. And you wonder where America's productivity
went 8-(.
However, I was discussing the outer box packaging, which is a beast of a
different color (four, actually, since it's screened, seperated and print-
ed 8-). It is still more common in bootlegging to copy than to create new
material. It's a tried and true concept which hasn't changed much since the
"It's a Beautiful Day" LP was bootlegged many years ago. Conterfeiters seem
to like the old familiar technology.
Hans Mulder
>S_DI...@iravcl.ira.uka.de (|S| Florian Dingler) writes:
>->German Money HAS a copyright message on it. It says '(c) DEUTSCHE BUNDESBANK'
>->and a years date (1961, i think the design was created then).
Depends on the note. I have here a 100 Mark note copyrighted in 1962
and a 10 Mark note copyrighted in 1991.
>I seem to remember that the French have really perfected the idea. French
>notes have a reference to the appropriate law that is being broken and
>then states the penalty for counterfeiting - they lock you away for ever.
Sorry Steve, you missed the point of this discussion.
There two very different sorts of offenses you can commit with Dutch and
German and Swiss and British money, but apparently not with USAn money:
You can counterfeit it or you can violate it's copyright.
Counterfeit is a criminal offense and is punishable with a jail sentence.
Dutch money promises a maximum of 9 years in jail, German money a
minimum of 2 years. -- What do other bank notes say?
This jail term applies only if you are copying bank notes with intent
to defraud. If you are selling them as your "artist's impression" of
the note, as the British artist earlier in this thread was doing, you
are not legally counterfeiting and you do not go to jail.
But you will be sued for copyright infringement. That's a civil offense
and you will be sued by the copyright holder, typically the central bank
of the country issuing the note.
>It's kind of poetic as anybody manually forging a note will have to
>painstakingly scribe this message. No cries of "oh, is it that serious"
>from the dock on sentencing.
But if you have painstakingly copied all the small print and there was no
copyright notice, you might be tempted to think that it wasn't copyrighted.
> Steve Austin
Hans Mulder ha...@cs.kun.nl
Gardner Buchanan
>no copyright license.
>
>French notes are going to change soon. They will be made
>with a different paper, harder to copy, and their shape
>is going to change too. They will be same height, but a
>different length according to their value. Don't know
>however the reason of this change.
>
Probably to make it easier (possible) for blind people to
distinguish denominations.
The new Canadian bills have the large numerals in the corners
printed in a heavy textured ink. They remain distingushable by
touch for an amazing long time. Also, the edge of the bills have
a readily recognizable pattern of dark and light areas worked into
the art so that a cheap electronic gizmo can be made (and i think
is) which recognizes the denomination and says it out loud.
--
Gardner Buchanan gar...@shl.com
Systemhouse, Ottawa
(613) 236-6604 x375
Klaus Ole Kristiansen
>In article <22...@imag.imag.fr> gou...@imag.imag.fr (Gourdol Arnaud) writes:
>>no copyright license.
>>
>>French notes are going to change soon. They will be made
>>with a different paper, harder to copy, and their shape
>>is going to change too. They will be same height, but a
>>different length according to their value. Don't know
>>however the reason of this change.
>>
>Probably to make it easier (possible) for blind people to
>distinguish denominations.
I would think that making all the bills the same height would make
it HARDER for blind people to distinguish the denominations.
Klaus O K
Kenneth Ng
: In article <1991Jun15....@sugra.uucp> k...@sugra.uucp (Kenneth Ng) writes:
:>In article <22...@imag.imag.fr>, gou...@imag.imag.fr (Gourdol Arnaud) writes:
: >: French notes are going to change soon.[edit]
: >: [edit] They will be same height, but a
: >: different length according to their value. Don't know
: >: however the reason of this change.
: >Perhaps so that the blind can find determine demonations?
: How would differing lengths help the blind to find denominations? If I
: hand you a 20, how do you know which one it is -- compare it to one of
: every other kind of bill, which you conveniently happen to be carrying?
The same way most people can tell the difference between a dime and a
quarter with little problem, by feeling. The blind people I have been
with have always had a better sense of touch than I. Granted it may be
because I depend more on my eyes and never bothered to develop such a
sense. If nothing else, I'm sure a template can be designed with the
proper demoninations noted.
P E Smee
Interesting cross-culturalism strikes me here. Gardner (I suspect) is
from the US or Canada, where all banknotes are the same size both
directions. So, changing to 'same height, different length' would seem
to appear to be an improvement. Klaus would appear to be from Denmark,
and aware that current French banknotes differ in both width and length
according to denomination, so that switching to 'same height, different
length' would look to him like a step back.
(Don't know about Danish money, but all the European countries that
I've had experience with have size-coded notes. Does make wallets a
bit bigger than American ones.)
--
Paul Smee, Computing Service, University of Bristol, Bristol BS8 1UD, UK
P.S...@bristol.ac.uk - ..!uunet!ukc!bsmail!p.smee - Tel +44 272 303132
Ralf....@b.gp.cs.cmu.edu
}Speaking of holograms, transparent sections and all that nonsense, has
}anyone looked at the MS-DOS 5.0 packaging? Microsoft is so obsessed
}about counterfeiters that they've put
} * A stern paragraph on the back of the outer box, visible through the
} shrinkwrap, warning "MS-DOS users" that the two holograms are our
} assurance that this is the genuine Microsoft article; if they're not
} visible, contact your dealer immediately, etc, etc.
You forgot the similar paragraph on the front of the manual. There's also
rumored to be ultraviolet-flourescent ink on the outer box....