Color Printer Counterfeiting
Charles B. Naumann
My office just purchased a new Canon CLBP360 color laser printer. While
the technician was setting it up, I asked to see some money printed on it.
He said that anti-counterfeiting devices in the printer would lock it up
if one tried to print money (presumably US currency) on it, and that it
would take a service call to unlock the printer, and that the service
person could tell what happened and call the police. I immediately handed
him a business card and asked him to fax me all the information he had on
this. He hasn’t sent anything. Nothing in the user’s manual. I emailed
Canon and got no response. I know of cases when Canon laser copiers were
used in counterfeiting schemes, so obviously any anti-counterfeiting
device must be relatively new. I want to call BS on this one, but for
obvious reasons I cannot do the experiment. Does anyone know if such an
anti-counterfeiting device actually exists, or it this like fake
‘merchandise control systems’ installed in many stores.
Charles Naumann
cnau...@hiwaay.net
Charles B. Naumann
Sorry to follow my own post, but I got an email back from Canon
and it stated that the color laser printers do not have
Counterfeiting protection, but their color laser copiers do.
Charles Naumann
cnau...@hiwaay.net
J. Weaver Jr.
Charles B. Naumann wrote:
>
> Sorry to follow my own post, but I got an email back from Canon
> and it stated that the color laser printers do not have
> Counterfeiting protection, but their color laser copiers do.
From Canon's US website:
"As a responsible corporate citizen, Canon developed the conterfeit
protection system that helps to detect and deter the use of its
products for unlawful purposes. For example the reproduction of
currency or government documents."
(The mangled spelling and sentence structure is all theirs.) -JW
Tony Lima
Charles Naumann <cnau...@HiWAAY.net> wrote:
CN> My office just purchased a new Canon CLBP360 color laser printer. While
CN> the technician was setting it up, I asked to see some money printed on it.
CN> He said that anti-counterfeiting devices in the printer would lock it up
CN> if one tried to print money (presumably US currency) on it, and that it
CN> would take a service call to unlock the printer, and that the service
CN> person could tell what happened and call the police. I immediately handed
CN> him a business card and asked him to fax me all the information he had on
CN> this. He hasn*t sent anything. Nothing in the user*s manual. I emailed
CN> Canon and got no response. I know of cases when Canon laser copiers were
CN> used in counterfeiting schemes, so obviously any anti-counterfeiting
CN> device must be relatively new. I want to call BS on this one, but for
CN> obvious reasons I cannot do the experiment. Does anyone know if such an
CN> anti-counterfeiting device actually exists, or it this like fake
CN> *merchandise control systems* installed in many stores.
What you are proposing to do is a FELONY. Heck, just thinking
about it is probably a crime. It is a felony for someone to
shoot a negative of U.S. currency for offset printing
purposes. Scanning currency for the same purpose would
undoubtedly be regarded in much the same way.
There is probably no anti-counterfeiting device installed in
the printer or its software. However, you may soon discover
that the U.S. Treasury has its own anti-counterfeiting
methods. HTH. - Tony Lima
* RM 1.31 2547 *
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internet: tony...@toadhall.com (Tony Lima)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tony Lima
<jw...@pobox.com> wrote:
JJ> Charles B. Naumann wrote:
JJ> >
JJ> > Sorry to follow my own post, but I got an email back from Canon
JJ> > and it stated that the color laser printers do not have
JJ> > Counterfeiting protection, but their color laser copiers do.
JJ> From Canon's US website:
JJ> "As a responsible corporate citizen, Canon developed the conterfeit
JJ> protection system that helps to detect and deter the use of its
JJ> products for unlawful purposes. For example the reproduction of
JJ> currency or government documents."
JJ> (The mangled spelling and sentence structure is all theirs.) -JW
There are many ways to deter counterfeiting that don't involve
special hardware. One of the easiest is to embed a serial
number or other identifying mark unique to each machine, in
the copies. Canon may well have such anti-counterfeiting
devices[1]. I would expect them to deny it and am somewhat
surprised that their web site is so cavalier about admitting
their existence. But, then, it doesn't say much about the
nature of the devices they use. - Tony "don't copy it" Lima
[1] "Devices" as used here means hardware, software, or other
technique.
Chris Borg
Just American currency?? or all currency for all countrys??
Also I'm reminded of a Paul "Mr. UL" Harvey Rest of the Story.
A counterfeiter bleached 1000 1 pound notes. put them thru a copier made
them 20 pound notes its the same paper they pass for months only gets
busted for "whatever".
Charles B. Naumann (cnau...@HiWAAY.net) wrote:
: Sorry to follow my own post, but I got an email back from Canon
: and it stated that the color laser printers do not have
: Counterfeiting protection, but their color laser copiers do.
: Charles Naumann
: cnau...@hiwaay.net
Steve Patlan
In article <5icafb$i...@jeeves.usfca.edu>,
Chris Borg <bo...@dons.ac.usfca.edu> wrote:
>Just American currency?? or all currency for all countrys??
>
>Also I'm reminded of a Paul "Mr. UL" Harvey Rest of the Story.
>
>A counterfeiter bleached 1000 1 pound notes. put them thru a copier made
>them 20 pound notes its the same paper they pass for months only gets
>busted for "whatever".
Uhhh, one pound is a coin. Maybe you mean a five pound note? I can't
remember if it's the same size as a 20, but I do know it has a metal
thread and a watermark.
Steve "riding on a pound note, pound note" Patlan
--
tex...@starbase.neosoft.com <*>
"Whoever said it doesn't matter whether you win or lose must have been
riding in the back of the loser's bus, covered in human filth" - Duckman
Damion Dishart
In article <5icl0t$2...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM>, Steve Patlan wrote:
> Uhhh, one pound is a coin. Maybe you mean a five pound note? I can't
> remember if it's the same size as a 20, but I do know it has a metal
> thread and a watermark.
A five pound (sterling) note is smaller than a ten which is
smaller than a twenty that is smaller in turn than a fifty. Also the
size of the watermark on each note is relative to the size of the note.
I can't give you the dimensions of the notes, 'cos my wallet is empty
:-( but I'm fairly sure the notes are all of the same proportions. The
new style sterling notes are smaller and of different proportions to
their predecessors.
When I was a cashier at a supermarket (1990/ 1991?) a
supervisor showed me a twenty pound note that an unnamed colleague had
accepted that was a colour photocopy onto paper. The forger had drawn
in the foil thread with a pencil :'-D and crumpled the note. The effect
was quite poor and I'm not sure how my coleague was fooled into
accepting it as legitimate, although I suspect his/ her mental
resources were quite low.
Damion.
--
---------------------------------------------------------
Damion C. Dishart: D.C.D...@sussex.ac.uk: Faked in Reply-to:
"...if Springsteen had ever recorded born to lurk, [he] would have been
on the front cover." - Terry Pratchett, 'Good Omens'
Rick Tyler
On 8 Apr 1997 00:27:57 -0500, tex...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM (Steve
Patlan) wrote:
<snip>
:Uhhh, one pound is a coin. Maybe you mean a five pound note? I can't
:remember if it's the same size as a 20, but I do know it has a metal
:thread and a watermark.
:
Unless things changed since my last trip there, doesn't the Bank of
Scotland still print 1-pound notes?
-- Rick "It's been a few years, I'm probably wrong, your mileage may
vary, but there weren't any *English* pound notes when I was there,
anyway" Tyler
-------------------------------------------------
The Microsoft motto is, "Quality is Job 1.1."
Alan Bostick
In article <33537816...@news.mindspring.com>,
equi...@mindspring.com (Mark) wrote:
> Copying, shooting a negative or engraving a plate to produce US
> currency facsimiles that are 50% larger or smaller than real US
> currency is not a crime.
I once worked at a Major Bank documenting the operating procedures for
one of its departments. We had occasion to photocopy dollar bills to
illustrate certain procedures. We made the copies at 100% size.
Apparently, if one writes "SPECIMEN" across the face of the copy, it's
perfectly legal. At least, that's what my boss told me.
Alan "Owning a bank's a license to print money anyway" Bostick
--
Alan Bostick | "You're a lawyer, I'm a vampire. There is
mailto:abos...@netcom.com | such a thing as professional courtesy."
news:alt.grelb | Stephen Dedman, "Never Seen by Waking Eyes"
http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~abostick
Lon Stowell
In article <73.183...@toadhall.com>,
Tony Lima <tony...@toadhall.com> wrote:
>What you are proposing to do is a FELONY. Heck, just thinking
>about it is probably a crime. It is a felony for someone to
>shoot a negative of U.S. currency for offset printing
>purposes. Scanning currency for the same purpose would
>undoubtedly be regarded in much the same way.
>
>There is probably no anti-counterfeiting device installed in
>the printer or its software. However, you may soon discover
>that the U.S. Treasury has its own anti-counterfeiting
>methods. HTH. - Tony Lima
Well, yes they do, and you can read about some of them on
their Web site--where a nice printable image of both the
front and back of the new $100 bill is there for your amusement.
It is amazing what the law covers and what it doesn't....and even
more is how it is dealt with in practice.
Yes you could probably get your annoying neighbor busted for making
a single very nice copy of a $20 if it were done sufficiently
close to actual size--maybe. The treasury is aware, and has
commented on on public tv, that folks have been using US currency
to check the quality of reproduction devices for some time...but
they get kinda annoyed if you PASS the stuff.
Color copiers don't really do as nice a job as a good scanner and
dye sub printer... Of course making plates for printing
money would probably be really really high on the no-no list.
Bill Ding
Charles B. Naumann wrote:
> fake 'merchandise control systems’ installed in many stores.
????
Is this a new one ?
Brian Abernathy
Alan Bostick (abos...@netcom.com) wrote:
> In article <33537816...@news.mindspring.com>,
> equi...@mindspring.com (Mark) wrote:
> > Copying, shooting a negative or engraving a plate to produce US
> > currency facsimiles that are 50% larger or smaller than real US
> > currency is not a crime.
> I once worked at a Major Bank documenting the operating procedures for
> one of its departments. We had occasion to photocopy dollar bills to
> illustrate certain procedures. We made the copies at 100% size.
> Apparently, if one writes "SPECIMEN" across the face of the copy, it's
> perfectly legal. At least, that's what my boss told me.
I don't know about the "SPECIMEN", but I checked with the feds on this
one a couple of years ago, when I wanted to reproduce a stamp. They told
me that it was legal if: 1) The reproduction is a black and white copy of
a colored original or 2) The reproduction was at least 50% larger or
smaller than the original.
Brian
Michael Craft
> Sorry to follow my own post, but I got an email back from Canon
> and it stated that the color laser printers do not have
> Counterfeiting protection, but their color laser copiers do.
Then Canon should be boycotted. Why buy an inferior product
when the competition has better product for the money?
Michael Craft
> My office just purchased a new Canon CLBP360 color laser printer. While
> ‘merchandise control systems’ installed in many stores.
Go ahead and try to copy the bill, if the machine locks up return it
to the store for a full refund. If the technician lied, report him.
If Canon really has such a feature, report it.
Michael Craft
> JJ> > Sorry to follow my own post, but I got an email back from Canon
> JJ> > and it stated that the color laser printers do not have
> JJ> > Counterfeiting protection, but their color laser copiers do.
>
> JJ> From Canon's US website:
>
> JJ> "As a responsible corporate citizen, Canon developed the conterfeit
> JJ> protection system that helps to detect and deter the use of its
> JJ> products for unlawful purposes. For example the reproduction of
> JJ> currency or government documents."
>
> special hardware. One of the easiest is to embed a serial
> number or other identifying mark unique to each machine, in
> the copies. Canon may well have such anti-counterfeiting
> devices[1]. I would expect them to deny it and am somewhat
> surprised that their web site is so cavalier about admitting
> their existence. But, then, it doesn't say much about the
> nature of the devices they use. - Tony "don't copy it" Lima
Canon should be boycotted for at least desiring such devices.
In the mean time it's wise to only purchase electronic products
with cash, to help deter the burgeoning police state. (A copier,
no matter how good, is incapable of producing counterfeit money;
there must be different reason for the move to "fingerprinting"
copies.)
Tony Lima
Alan Bostic <abos...@netcom.com> wrote:
AB> In article <33537816...@news.mindspring.com>,
AB> equi...@mindspring.com (Mark) wrote:
AB> > Copying, shooting a negative or engraving a plate to produce US
AB> > currency facsimiles that are 50% larger or smaller than real US
AB> > currency is not a crime.
AB> I once worked at a Major Bank documenting the operating procedures for
AB> one of its departments. We had occasion to photocopy dollar bills to
AB> illustrate certain procedures. We made the copies at 100% size.
AB> Apparently, if one writes "SPECIMEN" across the face of the copy, it's
AB> perfectly legal. At least, that's what my boss told me.
I'm not sure about that, but it sounds likely (m*tt*!!).
AB> Alan "Owning a bank's a license to print money anyway" Bostick
See the famous paper "Commercial Banks as Creators of Money."
- Tony
Bob Hiebert
Michael Craft wrote:
>> >> Sorry to follow my own post, but I got an email back from Canon
>> >> and it stated that the color laser printers do not have
>> >> Counterfeiting protection, but their color laser copiers do.
>> >
>> >Then Canon should be boycotted. Why buy an inferior product
>> >when the competition has better product for the money?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I thought this was a very funny joke.
Andrew Reid wrote:
>> Surely, if Canon's products are inferior, and the
>> competition represents better value, then Canon is doomed and
>> a boycott is quite unnecessary.
Bob Church wrote:
>Telling people that you've had to incorporate anti-counterfeiting
>measures is good advertising. It implies that your copiers are so good
>that they, unlike the competition, could copy money.
I don't think Andrew or Bob thought this was a joke.
I wonder which of us was correct.
Bob "still thinks its a very funny joke" Hiebert
--
E-mail address has bogus info. Modify to reply.
For more information on Urban legends,
set your sites on http://www.urbanlegends.com
Bob Church
In article <5iis00$a...@mtinsc05.worldnet.att.net>
Bob.H...@worldnet.REMOVE.att.net (Bob Hiebert ) writes:
>
> I don't think Andrew or Bob thought this was a joke.
>
> I wonder which of us was correct.
>
> Bob "still thinks its a very funny joke" Hiebert
>
But what's important is how YOU feel about it. Well, it looks like our
time is just about up for this week.
Bob Church
gom...@sirius.com
from: "Know Your Money"
a booklet put out by the Department of the Treasury.
U.S. Government Printing Office: 1991-299-590.
revised March 1991. page 22.
"The law sharply restricts photographs or other printed
reproductions of paper currency, checks, bonds, revenue
stamps, and securities of the United States and foreign
governments....
"Color reproductions of paper currency, checks, or bonds
for any purpose are illegal.
No color other than black and white may be used.
"Photographic or other likenesses of United States and
foreign currencies are permissible for any non-fraudulent
purpose
provided the items are reproduced in black and white and
are less than 3/4 or greater than 1 1/2 times the size,
in linear dimension,
of any part of the original item being reproduced....
"...This policy permits the use of currency reproductions
in commercial advertisements, provided they conform to
the size and color restrictions."
that seems pretty straight-forward -- what it says here is
that NO color reproductions are allowed, at any proportion,
even in print ads.
haven't there been color shots of money in print ads
in the past??
Simon Slavin
In article <5if42s$c...@pyrtech.mis.pyramid.com>,
lsto...@pyrtech.mis.pyramid.com (Lon Stowell) wrote:
> In article <73.183...@toadhall.com>,
> Tony Lima <tony...@toadhall.com> wrote:
> >
> >There is probably no anti-counterfeiting device installed in
> >the printer or its software. However, you may soon discover
> >that the U.S. Treasury has its own anti-counterfeiting
> >methods.
>
> Color copiers don't really do as nice a job as a good scanner and
> dye sub printer... Of course making plates for printing
> money would probably be really really high on the no-no list.
I'm with the faction which believes that the inks are specially
formulated to make repro of currency colours difficult. I can't
figure-out how to make a printer shut down when you put currency
through it.
Having worked downstairs from a plate-makers, I can report that
they had a sign up on their wall saying something like 'Do not
calibrate the machinery using currency notes of any form !'. It's
easy to ruin a plate once it's made (just fold it -- you'll never
get it flat again) but I guess some boss didn't want to be accused
of forgery.
Simon.
--
Simon Slavin -- Computer Contractor. | A cute girl asked me yesterday,
http://www.hearsay.demon.co.uk | so now I care.
Check email address for spam-guard. | -- tan...@math.wisc.edu
Junk email not welcome at this site. | (Stephen Will Tanner)
Chris A. Goodey
j...@idiom.com (Michael Craft) wrote:
> (A copier,
>no matter how good, is incapable of producing counterfeit money;
>there must be different reason for the move to "fingerprinting"
>copies.)
I was watching a tv documentary last year, and they interviewed
someone who worked for the British goverment. As part of his job, he
went to all the new office equipment trade shows and evaluted the
color copier's ability to copy their currency. He said the choice of
some of their colors was not to look pretty but to make it hard to
copy. Certain shades didn't copy well, and also changed slightly
enough to be obvious. Evidently clear, pure vibrant colors did copy
well enough to be a problem.
When high color copiers first came out I remember reading reports
of checks being copies and successfully cashed.
The extra fine lines around the portraits on the newer US currency
were specifically said to be un-copyable with the current copiers so I
assume this meant the older ones WERE copyable. I think there is a
problem.
I also suspect that the actually amount of counterfeit currency coming
from Iran and Lebannon far, FAR exceeds the amount the US goverment
admits is happening.
Ken Barr
In article <gomonk-1004...@ppp076-stk0.sirius.com>,
gom...@sirius.com (gom...@sirius.com) wrote:
>from: "Know Your Money"
>
>a booklet put out by the Department of the Treasury.
>U.S. Government Printing Office: 1991-299-590.
>revised March 1991. page 22.
[snip]
>that seems pretty straight-forward -- what it says here is
>that NO color reproductions are allowed, at any proportion,
>even in print ads.
>
>haven't there been color shots of money in print ads
>in the past??
Time Magazine sued under "freedom of speech" grounds a few years ago
and got the law overturned (after appeals all the way up to the Supreme
Court). The Treasury Department then drafted and published *much* less
stringent regulations that have been in place for the last year or so.
I'd have to check my back issues of "Bank Note Reporter" to find out
exactly when the new regs took effect, since they've been publishing
full-color banknotes on page one of every issue ever since ... Details
(and new regs) are probably available on the Treasury website as well.
Ken "and no, I don't remember the Treasury URL at the moment ..." Barr
--
Ken Barr Numismatics k...@kenbarr.com
P. O. Box 32541 http://www.kenbarr.com
San Jose, CA 95152 (MPC and Hickey Bros. tokens, more later)
408-272-3247 [next show: Sacramento 4/12-13]
BaltoVACS
The story i heard is that when the USSS found out about the Canon copiers
( I believe it was the 500? ) they not only got Canon to add the chip that
recognizes currency and the such but then went and tracted down the old
machines ... and "they [the machines] won't be causing us anymore
trouble.."
Tony Lima
Lon Stowell <lsto...@pyrtech.mis.pyramid.com> wrote:
LS> In article <73.183...@toadhall.com>,
LS> Tony Lima <tony...@toadhall.com> wrote:
LS> >What you are proposing to do is a FELONY. Heck, just thinking
LS> >about it is probably a crime. It is a felony for someone to
LS> >shoot a negative of U.S. currency for offset printing
LS> >purposes. Scanning currency for the same purpose would
LS> >undoubtedly be regarded in much the same way.
LS> >
LS> >There is probably no anti-counterfeiting device installed in
LS> >the printer or its software. However, you may soon discover
LS> >that the U.S. Treasury has its own anti-counterfeiting
LS> >methods. HTH. - Tony Lima
LS> Well, yes they do, and you can read about some of them on
LS> their Web site--where a nice printable image of both the
LS> front and back of the new $100 bill is there for your amusement.
Actually, I was referring to Treasury Agents. They don't
think much of any counterfeiting scheme, experimental, amateur
or professional.
Speaking of printable images, you might want to track down the
Hungarian currency home page which contains images of the
front and back of every denomination Hungarian currency... My
guess is that your color printer won't handle U.S. currency
green very well, however. You may want to try it and report
here on the results <g>.
LS> It is amazing what the law covers and what it doesn't....and even
LS> more is how it is dealt with in practice.
LS> Yes you could probably get your annoying neighbor busted for making
LS> a single very nice copy of a $20 if it were done sufficiently
LS> close to actual size--maybe. The treasury is aware, and has
LS> commented on on public tv, that folks have been using US currency
LS> to check the quality of reproduction devices for some time...but
LS> they get kinda annoyed if you PASS the stuff.
Yeah, trying to spend it is considerably more offensive to the
Treasury than just fooling around. However, technically even
fooling around is a felony. The law is quite clear on this
point.
LS> Color copiers don't really do as nice a job as a good scanner and
LS> dye sub printer... Of course making plates for printing
LS> money would probably be really really high on the no-no list.
Got that right. I understand that some color printers (the
non-inkjet models) produce quite credible currency. I haven't
tried it -- and won't! - Tony
Lon Stowell
In article <19970411032...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
The amazing thing is where they FOUND these old copiers after
spending all that time tracteding them down. One was found
floating under a buncha weather balloons over San Pedro, another
was found in the burnt remains of the Wacko compound, another
was found buried in glass which had flowed from the windows of
the cathedral next door, another was found in the wreckage of
a Chevvie with a JATO unit attached, and one was pumped from
the stomach of Rod Stewart. Two of these old copiers were
found in REALLY strange places: one was on sale at Niemann
Marcus for precisely $250 plus tax. The other one was truly
wierd, in that it seemed to be misbehaving and generating
all sorts of RFI energy. The USSS is still mystified at how
this copier managed to end up following a comet.
Tony Lima
Chris A. Goodey <cago...@televar.com> wrote:
CG> j...@idiom.com (Michael Craft) wrote:
CG> > (A copier,
CG> >no matter how good, is incapable of producing counterfeit money;
CG> >there must be different reason for the move to "fingerprinting"
CG> >copies.)
CG> I was watching a tv documentary last year, and they interviewed
CG> someone who worked for the British goverment. As part of his job, he
CG> went to all the new office equipment trade shows and evaluted the
CG> color copier's ability to copy their currency. He said the choice of
CG> some of their colors was not to look pretty but to make it hard to
CG> copy. Certain shades didn't copy well, and also changed slightly
CG> enough to be obvious. Evidently clear, pure vibrant colors did copy
CG> well enough to be a problem.
The Netherlands use bright colors with abstract designs to
foil counterfeiting. They also redesign their currency every
few years. Australian currency has a piece of clear plastic
embedded. Two of many tactics used around the world.
CG> When high color copiers first came out I remember reading reports
CG> of checks being copies and successfully cashed.
CG> The extra fine lines around the portraits on the newer US currency
CG> were specifically said to be un-copyable with the current copiers so I
CG> assume this meant the older ones WERE copyable. I think there is a
CG> problem.
Hundred dollar bills have a number of new features, including
those mentioned above. There's also the color shifting
numeral 100 in the lower right corner. And the security
thread. And the watermark.
CG> I also suspect that the actually amount of counterfeit currency coming
CG> from Iran and Lebannon far, FAR exceeds the amount the US goverment
CG> admits is happening.
So does the Treasury which is why they're moving to add these
features. - Tony "can't just run 'em off on an offset press
any more" Lima
Drew Lawson
> from: "Know Your Money"
>
> a booklet put out by the Department of the Treasury.
> U.S. Government Printing Office: 1991-299-590.
> revised March 1991. page 22.
[useful quotes snipped]
> that seems pretty straight-forward -- what it says here is
> that NO color reproductions are allowed, at any proportion,
> even in print ads.
>
>
> haven't there been color shots of money in print ads
> in the past??
I have two reactions to this.
First, a booklet from the Treasury Department is not the law, but
(hopefully) their interpretation of the law. They have an interest
in bending interpretation in their favor.
Secondly, despite the somewhat inconsistent phrasing, the prohibition
seems to be on *reproductions* of money. Photographic representations
(color or not) which cannot be mistaken for real money would be outside
reasonable scope (unless someone tried to pass it off as real).
A strict interpretation of what you quoted would outlaw any color film
which showed money (including the evening news detailing the changes in
the new $100 bill).
Drew "not a lawyer, not even on the Net" Lawson
--
Drew Lawson | Opportunity is for the taking
| Look inside yourself, you'll see
dla...@aimnet.com | then go clean up your own back yard
www.aimnet.com/~dlawson | leave my yard to me
Mitcho
Chris A. Goodey <cago...@televar.com> wrote:
: I also suspect that the actually amount of counterfeit currency coming
: from Iran and Lebannon far, FAR exceeds the amount the US goverment
: admits is happening.
What have you got against Lebanon and Iran? Why would these places be
hotbeds of counterfeiting?
Let's face it, the planet's most ubiquitous currency is also the easiest to
counterfeit (America's money is the only currency I have ever seen with
fewer than four colors on it, and I've seen a lot of currency). No
watermarks, no metal strips, nothing. There can be little doubt that a
goodly proportion of the paper dollars floating around the world are fake.
This is all because of the congenital inertia of Americans, who resist
change whenever they see it (though the gummint doesn't help by attempting
to foist a dollar coin onto the country the same size and weight as a
quarter, for example, but then the gummint wouldn't be the gummint if any
of them had any sense).
Frankly, I have always been mystified that anyone would attempt to
counterfeit, say, sterling, when the US dollar can be copied off so much
more easily.
Mitcho
Paul Kunkel
During the sixties, when I collected coins, I noticed a strange custom
among advertisements that depicted coins. They would always show very old
coins. For example, those little transparent change purses always had an
inserted photo of coins. They would show buffalo nickels, Liberty quarters
and Indian pennies. Those coins were rarely found in circulated change
anymore, but they were (and are) still legal tender. Maybe they just did
that as an eye catcher. Did counterfeiting laws ever apply to printing
coins on paper?
Kunkel
Jo Anne Slaven
For what it's worth, here's my $0.02 on the subject.
The company that my husband works for bought a colour copier (Canon, I
believe) a couple of years ago. My husband is the manager of the
drafting/graphics department, and he was actively involved in the
selection of the copier.
He told me that the copier had a chip installed in it that recognized
all of the world's major currencies (around 80, if I remember
correctly). If you attempt to copy a bill from one of these countries,
the copy will come out black. The copier does not shut down, it simply
gives you a black page every time you attempt to photocopy money. Colour
copies are about $1.00 a pop, so it's unlikely that anyone would make
very many attempts at photocopying cash under these circumstances.
Colour photocopiers have an additional security feature. Embedded in
every copy made is the license number of the machine that made the copy.
So if you photocopy, say, a bond, and then cash the thing, eventually
the forgery can be traced back to the copier that produced the document.
Since there will usually be only 2 or 3 people who have access to each
copier (they have keys), any forgeries can be traced fairly
successfully.
The above is all heresay. I will attempt to get some kind of
documentation next week.
Jo Anne
Tim Richards & Narrelle Harris
On 11 Apr 1997 15:13:26 GMT, "Mitcho" <mit...@netcom.com> wrote:
>Frankly, I have always been mystified that anyone would attempt to
>counterfeit, say, sterling, when the US dollar can be copied off so much
>more easily.
I think so too, it's a fairly simple design and shape, and very
limited in colour range. You should see the new notes we have in
Australia: they're made of plastic, tho they have the feel of banknote
paper, and include anti-theft devices like microprint and a clear
window in a corner of each one. They're also brightly-coloured, but
the old notes were like that as well. Apparently not a single
counterfeit copy of the new notes has been produced in the five years
they've been around.
Of course the public dislikes them for the same reasons the Americans
dislike currency changes - inertia - but I like 'em, they feel
suitably "space-age". :-)
Tim Richards.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tim Richards and Narrelle Harris
para...@iinet.net.au http://www.iinet.net.au/~parallax
"I'm shaking the dust of this crummy little town
off my feet and I'm going to see the world!"
- George Bailey, 'It's a Wonderful Life'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
OJs a liar
- During the sixties, when I collected coins, I noticed a strange custom
-among advertisements that depicted coins. They would always show very
old
-coins. For example, those little transparent change purses always had an
-inserted photo of coins. They would show buffalo nickels, Liberty
quarters
-and Indian pennies. Those coins were rarely found in circulated change
-anymore, but they were (and are) still legal tender. Maybe they just did
-that as an eye catcher. Did counterfeiting laws ever apply to printing
-coins on paper?
No, because even a 16 year-old at 7-11 would notice if you tried to buy
some gum with a paper quarter.
Michael Craft
> Colour photocopiers have an additional security feature. Embedded in
> every copy made is the license number of the machine that made the copy.
> So if you photocopy, say, a bond, and then cash the thing, eventually
> the forgery can be traced back to the copier that produced the document.
> Since there will usually be only 2 or 3 people who have access to each
> copier (they have keys), any forgeries can be traced fairly
> successfully.
Not if you bought an illegal copier smuggled into the US.
Paul Kunkel
In article <334EF7...@rogerswave.ca>,
Jo Anne Slaven <sla...@rogerswave.ca> wrote:
>
>Colour photocopiers have an additional security feature. Embedded in
>every copy made is the license number of the machine that made the copy.
Several people have mentioned this embedding idea. Since
photocopiers produce printed documents with no magnetic encoding, how is
this information embedded? Do they use very fine print? Vanishing toner?
I see no way to print the number without distorting the reproduction.
Kunkel
Michael Craft
> >Colour photocopiers have an additional security feature. Embedded in
> >every copy made is the license number of the machine that made the copy.
>
> Several people have mentioned this embedding idea. Since
> photocopiers produce printed documents with no magnetic encoding, how is
> this information embedded? Do they use very fine print? Vanishing toner?
> I see no way to print the number without distorting the reproduction.
It's very easy to encode serial numbers into patterns.
McClain Looney
In alt.folklore.urban Chris A. Goodey <cago...@televar.com> wrote:
: I also suspect that the actually amount of counterfeit currency coming
: from Iran and Lebannon far, FAR exceeds the amount the US goverment
: admits is happening.
I know i should be posting this to alt.conspiracy.total-lunacy, but
has anyone heard of the US govt. being involved in massive foreign
currency couterfeiting?
Mr. "Just because i'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get me" Looney
Tae H Kim
Paul Kunkel (kun...@REMOVEnas.com) wrote:
: In article <334EF7...@rogerswave.ca>,: >
: >Colour photocopiers have an additional security feature. Embedded in
: >every copy made is the license number of the machine that made the copy.
: Several people have mentioned this embedding idea. Since
: photocopiers produce printed documents with no magnetic encoding, how is
: this information embedded? Do they use very fine print? Vanishing toner?
: I see no way to print the number without distorting the reproduction.
Nicholas Negroponte, of the MIT Media Lab, wrote in an issue of 'Wired'
magazine about the possibility of printing tiny dots on a blank piece of
paper - dots too tiny for human eye to see, or at least too tiny to form
anything coherent. These dots and spaces without dots would be a sort of
binary code, and based on this code, would form some type of program once
the sheet of paper is fed into some type of reader. Of course, there
would still be some way to use the paper for correspondance - say only
encoding the margins of the page. One could use this to authenticate the
sender of a letter sent with this paper, etc. The point of his piece - I
think, was that technology could improve something so non-techno-sounding
- like a piece of paper, and increase the amount of information stored on
that paper in such a startling way.
Sorry, if this was vague - so am I.
- Tae
Tony Lima
<mcc...@legarto.minn.net> wrote:
ML> In alt.folklore.urban Chris A. Goodey <cago...@televar.com> wrote:
ML> : I also suspect that the actually amount of counterfeit currency coming
ML> : from Iran and Lebannon far, FAR exceeds the amount the US goverment
ML> : admits is happening.
ML> I know i should be posting this to alt.conspiracy.total-lunacy, but
ML> has anyone heard of the US govt. being involved in massive foreign
ML> currency couterfeiting?
I believe the U.S. printed counterfeit German currency during
either World War I or II (or maybe both). If the government
has engaged in counterfeiting recently, no one's talking. -
Tony
Michael Craft
> ************************************************************
> Edupage, 13 April 1997. Edupage, a summary of news about information
> technology, is provided three times a week as a service by Educom, a
> Washington, D.C.-based consortium of leading colleges and universities
> seeking to transform education through the use of information technology.
> ************************************************************
>
> THE COLOR OF MONEY
> Singapore has banned Hewlett-Packard's OfficeJet Pro 1150C printer because
> it doesn't conform to new regulations designed to thwart counterfeiters --
> as of next month all color photocopiers sold in Singapore must be fitted
> with a counterfeit-prevention system, which HP has determined is too
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
My guess: a requirement that every machine must digitize the serial
number in every printout?
> expensive, considering the OfficeJet Pro's modest price tag. HP says the
> next version of OfficeJet Pro probably will incorporate the system. Owners
> of color photocopiers in Singapore must have a permit to do so, which
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> requires submitting a list of all users, keeping the machine locked up,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> notifying authorities within a week if it's moved, and keeping a log
> detailing what is copied, when it was copied, who copied it, etc. (Wall
> Street Journal 11 Apr 97)
My guess: could this have anything to do with the law of Singapore that
penalizes the distribution of anonymous political leaflets by death or
life imprisonment?
Just who is swallowing the "we need these measures to reduce
counterfeiting" Jazz?
Rick Tyler
On 13 Apr 1997 03:56:31 GMT, McClain Looney <mcc...@legarto.minn.net>
wrote:
>In alt.folklore.urban Chris A. Goodey <cago...@televar.com> wrote:
>
>: I also suspect that the actually amount of counterfeit currency coming
>: from Iran and Lebannon far, FAR exceeds the amount the US goverment
>: admits is happening.
>
>I know i should be posting this to alt.conspiracy.total-lunacy, but
>has anyone heard of the US govt. being involved in massive foreign
>currency couterfeiting?
>
>Mr. "Just because i'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get me" Looney
>
I've been hearing little clicking sounds on my phones lately. The
neighbor's dog disappeared without a trace seven nights ago. My
garbage looks neat, almost as though it had been "arranged." There is
a plumbing truck across the street from my house that hasn't moved all
winter.
Does any of this mean anything?
-- Rick the Just Curious
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I came in late on this thread, which of course grants me license to make wild
unsubstantiated claims based on utter ignorance." -- Kevin Vigor
+ Remove the extra stuff to e-mail +
Michele Tepper
Mitcho <mit...@netcom.com> wrote:
>Chris A. Goodey <cago...@televar.com> wrote:
>
>: I also suspect that the actually amount of counterfeit currency coming
>: from Iran and Lebannon far, FAR exceeds the amount the US goverment
>: admits is happening.
>
>hotbeds of counterfeiting?
The so-called "Superdollar" $100 counterfeits, which are allegedly good
enough to fool some experts and which are thought to be behind the
redesign onf the $100 bill to make it less counterfeitable, has been tied
by the General Accounting Office of the US Government to producers in
Syria, Lebanon, and Iran. How solid their evidence is, I can't tell you,
since all of my own information comes from the American mass media
reportage of the $100 bill redesign.
>Let's face it, the planet's most ubiquitous currency is also the easiest to
>counterfeit (America's money is the only currency I have ever seen with
>fewer than four colors on it, and I've seen a lot of currency). No
>watermarks, no metal strips, nothing.
Um, have you looked at American money lately? Or are the counterfeiters
putting fake stripes into my bills to lull me into a false sense of
security???
Michele "oh no, Mr Bill!" Tepper
-
Accept no substitutes: ftp://ftp.best.com/pub.d/debunk/tafkac/
John Varela
A quotation from:
************************************************************
Edupage, 13 April 1997. Edupage, a summary of news about information
technology, is provided three times a week as a service by Educom, a
Washington, D.C.-based consortium of leading colleges and universities
seeking to transform education through the use of information technology.
************************************************************
THE COLOR OF MONEY
Singapore has banned Hewlett-Packard's OfficeJet Pro 1150C printer because
it doesn't conform to new regulations designed to thwart counterfeiters --
as of next month all color photocopiers sold in Singapore must be fitted
with a counterfeit-prevention system, which HP has determined is too
expensive, considering the OfficeJet Pro's modest price tag. HP says the
next version of OfficeJet Pro probably will incorporate the system. Owners
of color photocopiers in Singapore must have a permit to do so, which
requires submitting a list of all users, keeping the machine locked up,
notifying authorities within a week if it's moved, and keeping a log
detailing what is copied, when it was copied, who copied it, etc. (Wall
Street Journal 11 Apr 97)
John Varela
Tim Shoppa
In article <334ef9d3...@news.m.iinet.net.au>,
Tim Richards & Narrelle Harris <para...@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>You should see the new notes we have in
>Australia: they're made of plastic, tho they have the feel of banknote
>paper, and include anti-theft devices like microprint and a clear
>window in a corner of each one. They're also brightly-coloured, but
>the old notes were like that as well. Apparently not a single
>counterfeit copy of the new notes has been produced in the five years
>they've been around.
You mean "not a single counterfeit copy HAS BEEN DETECTED". It's
a fallacy to believe that something doesn't exist just because
it hasn't been found.
Reminds me (UL shift coming up here) of a supposed study of the
intelligence of the prison population. A team of researchers
administered IQ tests to inmates, found that the average prisoner's
IQ was lower than the non-prison population, and they came to
the conclusion that criminals are less intelligent than average.
Of course, this conclusion completely ignored the fact that they
only tested the criminals who had been *caught*!!!
Tim. (sho...@triumf.ca)
Rick Tyler
On 13 Apr 1997 06:26:46 GMT, tk...@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Tae H Kim) wrote:
>Nicholas Negroponte, of the MIT Media Lab, wrote in an issue of 'Wired'
>magazine about the possibility of printing tiny dots on a blank piece of
>paper - dots too tiny for human eye to see, or at least too tiny to form
>anything coherent. These dots and spaces without dots would be a sort of
>binary code, and based on this code, would form some type of program once
>the sheet of paper is fed into some type of reader. Of course, there
>would still be some way to use the paper for correspondance - say only
>encoding the margins of the page. One could use this to authenticate the
>sender of a letter sent with this paper, etc. The point of his piece - I
>think, was that technology could improve something so non-techno-sounding
>- like a piece of paper, and increase the amount of information stored on
>that paper in such a startling way.
>
Hmmmm. Interesting, but of limited use in today's real technology
(based only on reading your post). Most document scanning is done at
200 or 300 dots per inch in monochrome, or even lower resolutions,
like 75 or 125 dpi, in grayscale or color. At these resolutions,
"dots too tiny to see" would be ignored by the scanner. If the dots
were big enough to see, there is a pretty good chance that the
thresholding software in the scanner or imaging capture application
would treat the "random" dots as noise and filter them out. A popular
image "clean-up" feature, usually called despeck or despeckle, will
delete the little dots on purpose, considering them electrical noise
artifacts of the scanning process.
There is a commercial product which *sort of* sounds like what you
describe, but the markings are definitely not "too light" to read. It
is a two-dimensional "bar code" from Xerox. I forget the market name
for the technology, but it is very cool. I understand that is gaining
some acceptance, but since the world is just starting to make use of
barcodes for applications other than inventory and grocery prices, a
high-density technology like Xerox's is having trouble finding a home.
If you want to learn more about image processing and document scanning
in general, Kofax Image Products (OK, it's where I work) has a web
page that has quite a bit of information on this at
http://www.kofax.com. There are some white papers focusing on
document imaging on the site, and you can check out the product family
I manage (Ascent). The Association for Image and Information
Management (AIIM) also has a web page, but I don't know what they have
there. BTW, none of this applies to other imaging, like geophysical,
medical, mapping, digital photography or any of those other fields
called "imaging."
ObAFU: With a little work, and some document imaging technology, we
could build a _way_ better colander polygraph than the one the cops
have. Any interested venture capitalists should write me a the e-mail
address above.
-- Rick the Imaging Guy
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"And mine -- which I can't cite, and hence probably shouldn't have posted,
but it's too late now -- matches it. -- Andy Walton
+ Remove 'goaway' for spam-free mailing + See "www.urbanlegends.com"
Tony Lima
From the San Jose Mercury-News, April 14, 1997, p. 5A:
Bogus $10 bills traced to home of 15-year-old
BAY CITY, Mich. (AP) - Authorities traced counterfeit $10
bills to the home of a 15-year-old boy, who allegedly had been
using his computer to print the phony bills.
The teenager, whose name was not released, admitted the
counterfeiting, said police Lt. Chris Rupp.
Officers found discarded practice counterfeit bills in a
wastebasket during a search Friday, the Bay City Times
reported Sunday. The boy and some friends apparently scanned
the image of a $10 bill into his computer and printed copies.
The teenager allegedly talked to classmates at Bay City
Central High School about the phony bills after businesses and
consumers were warned about fake $10 bills.
"Apparently, this lad couldn't keep his lips closed and they
were flapping all over the place in school, where he told
people he was the one involved in the counterfeiting," Rupp
said.
- Tony "would you like a paper shredder with that printer?"
Lima
P.J. Hartman
Excerpt in whole from the Omaha World-Herald, April 14, 1997
Bay City, Mich. (AP) - Authorities traced counterfeit $10 bills to the
home of a 15-year-old boy, who allegedly had been using his computer
to print the phony bills. The boy and some friends apparently scanned
the image of a $10 bill into his computer and printed copies.
--
P.J. Hartman pjh{at}radiks{dot}net MIND THE GAP
41°18'07"N 95°53'37"W
Any errors in fact, tact, or spelling are transmission errors.
Note: E-mail address has bogus info. Modify to reply.
John Varela
>My guess: could this have anything to do with the law of Singapore that
>penalizes the distribution of anonymous political leaflets by death or
>life imprisonment?
Is it that one cannot make a political leaflet with other than a color
copier?
>Just who is swallowing the "we need these measures to reduce
>counterfeiting" Jazz?
Wait a minute. I recognize you. You're the idiot I killfiled in that
other thread.
John Varela
Peter
Michele Tepper wrote:
>
> The so-called "Superdollar" $100 counterfeits, which are allegedly good
> enough to fool some experts and which are thought to be behind the
> redesign onf the $100 bill to make it less counterfeitable, has been tied
> by the General Accounting Office of the US Government to producers in
> Syria, Lebanon, and Iran. How solid their evidence is, I can't tell you,
> since all of my own information comes from the American mass media
> reportage of the $100 bill redesign.
bill (looks like the rest of our currency) or the all-new redesigned
$100 bill, but I saw a news report about counterfits of the latter
already being discovered.
Anyhow, not sure if this has been passed along yet or not:
(from the Edupage mailing list):
--
THE COLOR OF MONEY
Singapore has banned Hewlett-Packard's OfficeJet Pro 1150C printer
because
it doesn't conform to new regulations designed to thwart counterfeiters
--
as of next month all color photocopiers sold in Singapore must be fitted
with a counterfeit-prevention system, which HP has determined is too
expensive, considering the OfficeJet Pro's modest price tag. HP says
the
next version of OfficeJet Pro probably will incorporate the system.
Owners
of color photocopiers in Singapore must have a permit to do so, which
requires submitting a list of all users, keeping the machine locked up,
notifying authorities within a week if it's moved, and keeping a log
detailing what is copied, when it was copied, who copied it, etc. (Wall
Street Journal 11 Apr 97)
--
pjt
Simon Slavin
In article <5iplhf$bc9$1...@cobra.minn.net>,
McClain Looney <mcc...@legarto.minn.net> wrote:
> In alt.folklore.urban Chris A. Goodey <cago...@televar.com> wrote:
>
> : I also suspect that the actually amount of counterfeit currency coming
> : from Iran and Lebannon far, FAR exceeds the amount the US goverment
> : admits is happening.
>
> I know i should be posting this to alt.conspiracy.total-lunacy, but
> has anyone heard of the US govt. being involved in massive foreign
> currency couterfeiting?
Because causing massive inflation in, say, a middle-eastern economy
would be beneficial to the citizens of the US, counterfeiting a
foreign currency sort-of makes sense. However, the actual process
of matching paper, inks and design; the distribution of the forged
notes; and the accounting for how all this money got into US hands
in the first place would be very difficult and involve a huge
number of people, some of whom might leak the story. The diplomatic
fall-out from anything like this would be horrendous -- think of
the next UN meeting !
I could see it happening, but only during an actual declared state
of war.
Simon.
--
Simon Slavin -- Computer Contractor. | A cute girl asked me yesterday,
http://www.hearsay.demon.co.uk | so now I care.
Check email address for spam-guard. | -- tan...@math.wisc.edu
Junk email not welcome at this site. | (Stephen Will Tanner)
Simon Slavin
In article <5ip9ug$6...@idiom.com>,
j...@idiom.com (Michael Craft) wrote:
> > >Colour photocopiers have an additional security feature. Embedded in
> > >every copy made is the license number of the machine that made the copy.
> >
> > Several people have mentioned this embedding idea. Since
> > photocopiers produce printed documents with no magnetic encoding, how is
> > this information embedded? Do they use very fine print? Vanishing toner?
> > I see no way to print the number without distorting the reproduction.
>
> It's very easy to encode serial numbers into patterns.
This, while true, is not sufficient. I know how it's done,
and how the patterns are analysed. Do you ? Then why not
post some details, or a reference so that those interested
can look it up. Either of those would do.
jon murray
Simon Slavin wrote:
>
>
> Because causing massive inflation in, say, a middle-eastern economy
> would be beneficial to the citizens of the US, counterfeiting a
> foreign currency sort-of makes sense. However, the actual process
> of matching paper, inks and design; the distribution of the forged
> notes; and the accounting for how all this money got into US hands
> in the first place would be very difficult and involve a huge
> number of people, some of whom might leak the story.
Let's see - one person to design the note, one person to match the
paper, one person to buy the ink and a fifth to run the press. Maybe
they'd need a driver as well, to take the product over to the CIA.
Jon
*********
My address has been spam-protected.
It's 'netconnect' & I live in Australia (.au)
*********
Andrew Mobbs
Ken Barr <k...@kenbarr.com> typed:
>
>FWIW, the two best anti-counterfeiting techniques on current US banknotes
>are A) the intaglio (raised ink printing) process which no copier can
>reproduce and B) on the new $100, the optical-variable ink used on the
>$100 numeral in the lower right hand corner (it appears green when viewed
>at one angle, and black when viewed at another angle), which color copies
>cannot properly reproduce. The serious counterfeiting problem is the use
>of banknote quality production presses by rogue governments, not the
>"casual counterfeiting" by students and local print shop owners ...
>
UK banknotes all have patterns in an ink which is transparent except
under UV light, many shops now have a UV light next to the till. I
suppose that this is the simpilest way of stopping simple photocopy
counterfeits, I'd be surprised if it isn't more widespread.
--
Andrew Mobbs - and...@chiark.greenend.org.uk || aj...@cam.ac.uk
- http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~andrewm/
V-X
On 14 Apr 1997 01:14:53 -0400, in alt.folklore.urban, mte...@panix.com (Michele
Tepper) wrote:
>>Let's face it, the planet's most ubiquitous currency is also the easiest to
>>counterfeit (America's money is the only currency I have ever seen with
>>fewer than four colors on it, and I've seen a lot of currency). No
>>watermarks, no metal strips, nothing.
>
>Um, have you looked at American money lately? Or are the counterfeiters
>putting fake stripes into my bills to lull me into a false sense of
>security???
They do have strips now, but it was hard won, and it really isn't enough. The
new hundreds are better than anything else we circulate by a long shot, but they
aren't even close to the kind of nearly-counterfeit-proof bills that have been
used by most of the other industrial nations for the past few decades.
There was a really good "Frontline" about this five or six years ago, detailing
an effort to make US money more like, say, British, Canadian, and Danish
money--bigger, full color, with bigger, more detailed portraits, strips, special
inks, the works. It was shot down basically because Congress feared that people
were so attatched to the (relatively recent) *look* of US bills that they would
lose favor with voters if they were seen as having screwed around with the
"greenbacks." If I'm not remembering wrong, the one thing that did come out of
those efforts was the inclusion of the strips.
Visit the Jack Chick Archive and Loads o' Groove at:
http://www.ungh.com
Coming Soon: A New Jack Chick Site @ www.yaaa.org
Coming Sooner: Nerd Farm @ www.nerd-farm.com
Don't bother going thrifting. We already got all the good stuff.
mig
On Mon, 14 Apr 1997 02:18:19 GMT, rty...@concentric.net.goaway (Rick
Tyler) wrote:
>On 13 Apr 1997 03:56:31 GMT, McClain Looney <mcc...@legarto.minn.net>
>wrote:
>
>>In alt.folklore.urban Chris A. Goodey <cago...@televar.com> wrote:
>>
>>: I also suspect that the actually amount of counterfeit currency coming
>>: from Iran and Lebannon far, FAR exceeds the amount the US goverment
>>: admits is happening.
>>
>>I know i should be posting this to alt.conspiracy.total-lunacy, but
>>has anyone heard of the US govt. being involved in massive foreign
>>currency couterfeiting?
>>
>>Mr. "Just because i'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get me" Looney
>>
>I've been hearing little clicking sounds on my phones lately. The
>neighbor's dog disappeared without a trace seven nights ago. My
>garbage looks neat, almost as though it had been "arranged." There is
>a plumbing truck across the street from my house that hasn't moved all
>winter.
>
>Does any of this mean anything?
>
I was in northern Brazil for Carnival recently and the local
dress-store owner/money changer refused to change one of my U$S100
bills because it was from 1982. He said that "everyone" knew that
there were many counterfeits with that date because they had been
printed in the middle-east to fund the Iran-Iraq war, blah, blah,
blah. He said they were "perfect" bills that couldn't be detected.
Of course, I then told him that if they were perfect and undetectable,
there should be no problem for him to change them into reales for me,
as they were the same as the real thing. He didn't debate this, but
did offer to change the 1982 bill for a lower rate...
I got this story (a Salvador, Bahia, Brazil UL!?) from several folks
in Salvador, but changed the bill with no problem -- and no
complicated authentication measures -- at a bank. I later changed a
1982 bill with no problem several hundred kilometers to the north of
Salvador.
Just a trick to get a better rate on some bills (although several
people refused to take them at all), or a UL? ULishness included the
country changing from Iraq to Iran to Syria to all of the above.
Ignoring the simple logic of a perfect copy being, by definition, the
same as the original seems ULish as well.
saludos, mig "Vai sacudir, vai abalar"
-----
"It is a sure sign that a culture has reached a dead
end when it is no longer intrigued by its myths."
Greil Marcus
-----
m...@satlink.com
Michael Craft
> >My guess: could this have anything to do with the law of Singapore that
> >penalizes the distribution of anonymous political leaflets by death or
> >life imprisonment?
>
> Is it that one cannot make a political leaflet with other than a color
> copier?
The older printers didn't have the capability, so Singapore restricts
the printers with brute force methods; the newer printers have the
capability, so allowing fascist Singapore new methods to identify
pseudoanonymous printings. Eventually, the new printers are to replace
the old fashioned printers, with Singapore banning the possession of
the old style printers.
Michael Craft
> >You should see the new notes we have in
> >Australia: they're made of plastic, tho they have the feel of banknote
> >paper, and include anti-theft devices like microprint and a clear
> >window in a corner of each one. They're also brightly-coloured, but
> >the old notes were like that as well. Apparently not a single
> >counterfeit copy of the new notes has been produced in the five years
> >they've been around.
>
> You mean "not a single counterfeit copy HAS BEEN DETECTED". It's
> a fallacy to believe that something doesn't exist just because
> it hasn't been found.
All counterfeit bills either duplicate the serial numbers of already
printed notes or use serial numbers that were never issued by the
state; if there are counterfeit bills in circulation the state will
find out about it and will be able to compare the counterfeit bills
with the genuine; that Australian police haven't found any counterfeit
notes yet, is a clue that there aren't any, as they will show up if
there are any.
Paul Kunkel
In article <5j2q9i$b...@idiom.com>, j...@idiom.com (Michael Craft) wrote:
>>
>> You mean "not a single counterfeit copy HAS BEEN DETECTED". It's
>> a fallacy to believe that something doesn't exist just because
>> it hasn't been found.
>
>All counterfeit bills either duplicate the serial numbers of already
>printed notes or use serial numbers that were never issued by the
>state; if there are counterfeit bills in circulation the state will
>find out about it and will be able to compare the counterfeit bills
>with the genuine; that Australian police haven't found any counterfeit
>notes yet, is a clue that there aren't any, as they will show up if
>there are any.
I am trying and trying to make sense of this statement. An unissued
number would identify a counterfeit bill (if someone checked it), but why
would a valid number raise any suspicion? Comparing it to the real bill
would require that the government know the whereabouts of that bill. If
the Australian government has such a sophisticated database that they can
keep track of every dollar in circulation, then printed money would seem
to be superfluous.
Kunkel
Mary Shafer
In article <335327...@nextconnect.com>,
jon murray <jo...@nextconnect.com> wrote:
>Simon Slavin wrote:
>>
>>
>> Because causing massive inflation in, say, a middle-eastern economy
>> would be beneficial to the citizens of the US, counterfeiting a
>> foreign currency sort-of makes sense. However, the actual process
>> of matching paper, inks and design; the distribution of the forged
>> notes; and the accounting for how all this money got into US hands
>> in the first place would be very difficult and involve a huge
>> number of people, some of whom might leak the story.
>
>Let's see - one person to design the note, one person to match the
>paper, one person to buy the ink and a fifth to run the press. Maybe
>they'd need a driver as well, to take the product over to the CIA.
You don't work much with government agencies, do you?
One person to think of the idea; one secretary to explain it to while
trying to get on the branch chief's calendar; one branch chief to
convince; six people on the division staff to approve forwarding the
idea to the directorate; the directorate secretary, who writes up the
notes of the staff meeting; twelve people in the directorate to review
it, plus legal, environmental, financial resources, graphics, and the
procurement person who has to write the RFP; the person who has to
write the justification for private production rather than having the
GPO do it; the secretaries of the directorate and other departments,
who have to type the approving memos; every company who gets a copy of
the RFP and everyone who reads that daily publication with all RFPs,
etc, in it (Commerce Business Daily?); the outside printers that put
together the proposals for the would-be contractors; the fourteen
members, including advisors, of the Source Evaluation Board; the four
people from the IG's office who think think that there's something
shady going on; the nine contractor employees (the ones you mentions
plus management and financial people); the three folks in Shipping and
Receiving who open and inspect the deliverables; someone to write the
shipping forms to get it to the countries where it will be
distributed; the four folks in Shipping and Receiving who have to
package the currency for shipping, probably by building crates;
everyone who sat in any of the meetings, walked by during any
discussion of the project, saw documentation on somebody's desk, or
heard about it at lunch or in the carpool; and everyone any of these
people mentioned anything to.
Even if it were just done with a few briefings, oral approval, and
some sort of easily spendable money, there would still be memos and
receipts and a variety of administrative people involved. After all,
someone has to be sure that this money doesn't go straight into an
agency worker's bank account. It's not like the old days, when people
supposedly got handouts of cash to spend as they wished with no
oversight at any level.
--
Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR sha...@ursa-major.spdcc.com
URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html
Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard
Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end....
Tim Shoppa
In article <5j2q9i$b...@idiom.com>, Michael Craft <j...@idiom.com> wrote:
>> >You should see the new notes we have in
>> >Australia: they're made of plastic, tho they have the feel of banknote
>> >paper, and include anti-theft devices like microprint and a clear
>> >window in a corner of each one. They're also brightly-coloured, but
>> >the old notes were like that as well. Apparently not a single
>> >counterfeit copy of the new notes has been produced in the five years
>> >they've been around.
>>
>> a fallacy to believe that something doesn't exist just because
>> it hasn't been found.
>
>All counterfeit bills either duplicate the serial numbers of already
>printed notes or use serial numbers that were never issued by the
>state; if there are counterfeit bills in circulation the state will
>find out about it and will be able to compare the counterfeit bills
>with the genuine;
I'm a bit confused about your use of the serial number issue. Are
you implying that the government regularly tracks the movement of
individual bills, indexed through a serial number in some enormous
database? Find two bills with identical serial numbers out of
tens of millions spread across an entire continent sounds like a
very difficult job.
>that Australian police haven't found any counterfeit
>notes yet, is a clue that there aren't any, as they will show up if
>there are any.
Again, not if the counterfeiters really good.
Tim.
Michael Craft
> > Because causing massive inflation in, say, a middle-eastern economy
> > would be beneficial to the citizens of the US, counterfeiting a
> > foreign currency sort-of makes sense. However, the actual process
> > of matching paper, inks and design; the distribution of the forged
> > notes; and the accounting for how all this money got into US hands
> > in the first place would be very difficult and involve a huge
> > number of people, some of whom might leak the story.
>
> Let's see - one person to design the note, one person to match the
> paper, one person to buy the ink and a fifth to run the press. Maybe
> they'd need a driver as well, to take the product over to the CIA.
It could be done, but they would be caught; all bills contain serial
numbers. It'd be better for the CIA to counterfeit coins, but they'd
still be caught if making it in a great quantity.
jon murray
Michael Craft wrote:
>
> >
> > Let's see - one person to design the note, one person to match the
> > paper, one person to buy the ink and a fifth to run the press. Maybe
> > they'd need a driver as well, to take the product over to the CIA.
>
> It could be done, but they would be caught; all bills contain serial
> numbers. It'd be better for the CIA to counterfeit coins, but they'd
> still be caught if making it in a great quantity.
Maybe (although I doubt that Tehran Mercedes is going to check serial
numbers), but didn't this thread start with the assumption that the new
US $100 bill is a response to massive counterfeiting? So someone has
been 'caught' but it didn't solve the problem. And if the CIA was to
work as it usually does, the fake Iranian notes would be printed by
Iraqi nationals (and vice versa) in a country other than the US. It
seems pretty foolproof to me.
jon murray
Michael Craft wrote:
>
> All counterfeit bills either duplicate the serial numbers of already
> printed notes or use serial numbers that were never issued by the
> state; if there are counterfeit bills in circulation the state will
> find out about it and will be able to compare the counterfeit bills
> with the genuine
"Hey Sarge, here's a 2324 564334A - must be a fake, cause I know that
234 564334A is in the pub till at Koowingiboora ."
dbrooks
jon murray (jo...@nextconnect.com) wrote:
: Let's see - one person to design the note, one person to match the
: paper, one person to buy the ink and a fifth to run the press.
Damn; that New Math has filtered down to counting now.
Lon Stowell
In article <5j2qka$c...@idiom.com>, Michael Craft <j...@idiom.com> wrote:
>
>It could be done, but they would be caught; all bills contain serial
>numbers. It'd be better for the CIA to counterfeit coins, but they'd
>still be caught if making it in a great quantity.
>
s
In article <5iplhf$bc9$1...@cobra.minn.net>,
McClain Looney <mcc...@legarto.minn.net> wrote:
> In alt.folklore.urban Chris A. Goodey <cago...@televar.com> wrote:
>
> : I also suspect that the actually amount of counterfeit currency coming
> : from Iran and Lebannon far, FAR exceeds the amount the US goverment
> : admits is happening.
>
> I know i should be posting this to alt.conspiracy.total-lunacy, but
> has anyone heard of the US govt. being involved in massive foreign
> currency couterfeiting?
Because causing massive inflation in, say, a middle-eastern economy
would be beneficial to the citizens of the US, counterfeiting a
foreign currency sort-of makes sense. However, the actual process
of matching paper, inks and design; the distribution of the forged
notes; and the accounting for how all this money got into US hands
in the first place would be very difficult and involve a huge
number of people, some of whom might leak the story. The diplomatic
fall-out from anything like this would be horrendous -- think of
the next UN meeting !
I could see it happening, but only during an actual declared state
of war.
Simon.
--
Simon Slavin -- Computer Contractor. | A cute girl asked me yesterday,
http://www.hearsay.demon.co.uk | so now I care.
Check email address for spam-guard. | -- tan...@math.wisc.edu
Junk email not welcome at this site. | (Stephen Will Tanner)
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From: sla...@hearsay.demon.co.uk.NOJUNK (Simon Slavin)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban
Subject: Re: Color Printer Counterfeiting - Impossible
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:50:17 +0100
Organization: International Cocaine Importers, Ltd.
Message-ID: <AF783AF9...@hearsay.demon.co.uk>
References: <334956...@pobox.com> <73.183...@toadhall.com>
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<5iplhf$bc9$1...@cobra.minn.net>
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Chris Olsen
br> In article <5iplhf$bc9$1...@cobra.minn.net>,
br> McClain Looney <mcc...@legarto.minn.net> wrote:
>
>I know i should be posting this to alt.conspiracy.total-lunacy, but
>has anyone heard of the US govt. being involved in massive foreign
>currency couterfeiting?
This was actually done in the Vietnam war. Tons of counterfeit North
Vietnamese currency was printed and circulated in that country.
In some cases it was dropped from planes into small villages.
This was done to "sow discontent and cause massive inflation of the Dong."
(I didn't make this up!)
... Danger, bre...@netcom.com! Off-topic messages! Danger!
Kevin T. Keith
In article <5j3a65$3u0$1...@barad-dur.nas.com>, kun...@REMOVEnas.com , (Paul
Kunkel) says...
>>All counterfeit bills either duplicate the serial numbers of already
>>printed notes or use serial numbers that were never issued by the
>>state; if there are counterfeit bills in circulation the state will
>>find out about it
>
> I am trying and trying to make sense of this statement. An unissued
>number would identify a counterfeit bill (if someone checked it), but why
>would a valid number raise any suspicion? Comparing it to the real bill
>would require that the government know the whereabouts of that bill.
This leads to a question which has long puzzled me. I keep seeing
references in English books (especially pre-war ones) to the serial numbers
on pound notes. Apparently it was necessary to record and then report to
the bank the numbers of any notes that were used? Anytime someone made a
purchase there was a form to be filled out? I remember some sort of
mystery story in which a hit man is caught because the police have a
listing of the serial numbers of the notes with which he was paid, and he
gets fingered by a shopkeeper who recognizes one of them - how likely was
this? Seems like a huge amount of work - I can't imagine it would ever
work in America (we do have serial numbers on our bills, and they are
sometimes used to track money, but never at the point of sale, and there is
no central reporting requirement). Can someone explain what actually
happens?
Kevin "write it on a pound note, pound note" T. Keith
jon murray
Kevin T. Keith wrote:
>
> This leads to a question which has long puzzled me. I keep seeing
> references in English books (especially pre-war ones) to the serial numbers
> on pound notes. Apparently it was necessary to record and then report to
> the bank the numbers of any notes that were used? Anytime someone made a
> purchase there was a form to be filled out?
Sorry, is this your understanding of what the books said (in which case
you must have been reading a completely different set of books to me),
or is it your hypothesis to explain the below?
> I remember some sort of
> mystery story in which a hit man is caught because the police have a
> listing of the serial numbers of the notes with which he was paid, and he
> gets fingered by a shopkeeper who recognizes one of them - how likely was
> this?
So, you've only seen this in one book?
Drew Lawson
In article <5j7s02$i...@news1.panix.com>, ktk...@panix.com (Kevin T.
Keith) wrote:
> In article <5j3a65$3u0$1...@barad-dur.nas.com>, kun...@REMOVEnas.com , (Paul
> Kunkel) says...
> >In article <5j2q9i$b...@idiom.com>, j...@idiom.com (Michael Craft) wrote:
> > I am trying and trying to make sense of this statement. An unissued
> >number would identify a counterfeit bill (if someone checked it), but why
> >would a valid number raise any suspicion? Comparing it to the real bill
> >would require that the government know the whereabouts of that bill.
I recall hearing one or two news reports (usually not for the area I
was in, so the details fade) which implied that counterfeiters had
circulated a lot of bills, ALL with the same serial number.
To pick up on that, all it takes is a little suspician and a look at
the wa of bills handed to you. If an issued *series* was repeated,
it would be less noticable.
> I remember some sort of
> mystery story in which a hit man is caught because the police have a
> listing of the serial numbers of the notes with which he was paid, and he
> gets fingered by a shopkeeper who recognizes one of them - how likely was
> this? Seems like a huge amount of work - I can't imagine it would ever
> work in America
That's a fairly common fictional plot item. It was police show
template material for the '70s(NL). I never understood why someone
(unless expecting to be robbed) would copy down the serial numbers
of their money, but the world is filled with odd people.
Drew "The numbers? Two 10s, three 20s, . . ." Lawson
--
Drew Lawson | Broke my mind
dla...@aimnet.com | Had no spare
www.aimnet.com/~dlawson |
Roy Dent
In message <335858...@nextconnect.com>jo...@nextconnect.com,
jo...@nextconnect.com said:
> Kevin T. Keith wrote:
>>
>> This leads to a question which has long puzzled me. I keep seeing
>> references in English books (especially pre-war ones) to the serial
>> numbers on pound notes. Apparently it was necessary to record and then
>> report to the bank the numbers of any notes that were used? Anytime
>> someone made a purchase there was a form to be filled out?
>
> Sorry, is this your understanding of what the books said (in which case
> you must have been reading a completely different set of books to me), or
> is it your hypothesis to explain the below?
>
>> because the police have a listing of the serial numbers of the notes
>> with which he was paid, and he gets fingered by a shopkeeper who
>> recognizes one of them - how likely was this?
>
>
> Jon
>
>
> ********* My address has been spam-protected. It's 'netconnect' & I live
> in Australia (.au) *********
>
Well, as a child in the 1940's when five pound notes were large, white,
crisp and printed in black copperplate script, it was sufficiently
unusual for one to be presented in a shop for the shopkeeper to keep a
note of the transaction _and_ require the customer to write their full
name and address on the back of the fiver. I never saw this happen with
one pound notes, and I doubt it ever did unless it was shortly after
Britain came off the gold standard pre-WW2.
Cheers,
Roy
Timothy A. McDaniel
In article <335858...@nextconnect.com>,
jon murray <jo...@nextconnect.com> wrote:
>Kevin T. Keith wrote:
>> This leads to a question which has long puzzled me. I keep seeing
>> references in English books (especially pre-war ones) to the serial numbers
>
>Sorry, is this your understanding of what the books said (in which case
>you must have been reading a completely different set of books to me),
>or is it your hypothesis to explain the below?
>
>> I remember some sort of
>> mystery story in which a hit man is caught because the police have a
>> listing of the serial numbers of the notes with which he was paid, and he
>> gets fingered by a shopkeeper who recognizes one of them - how likely was
>> this?
>
>So, you've only seen this in one book?
In one of Dorothy Sayer's Lord Peter Wimsey novels -- damme! I forget
which! -- the murderer is partially tracked by the serial number on a
5-pound note, recorded at a bank when it was withdrawn. _Unnatural
Death_, perhaps? It's the one that starts with the doctor requiring
an autopsy on a deceased cancer patient, and getting run out of town
as a consequence.
In _The Man Who Stole Portugal_ (I believe the title was; overblown
title. All he did was convince the English printers of the Portuguese
money supply to run off some for him in the 1920s), they mentioned
that an English security feature was that bills turned in to the Bank
of England were, like checks and notes, destroyed rather than
recirculated. In Portugal, they merely cleaned and pressed the notes.
--
Tim McDaniel; Reply-To: tm...@crl.com
Andrew Lewis
Roy Dent wrote:
>
> [...]
> Well, as a child in the 1940's when five pound notes were large, white,
> crisp and printed in black copperplate script, it was sufficiently
> unusual for one to be presented in a shop for the shopkeeper to keep a
> note of the transaction _and_ require the customer to write their full
> name and address on the back of the fiver.
Was it in "Puckoon" that Milligan wrote of the poor landlady who
refused payment with a five pound note saying, "We don't take
cheques."?
I can't remember what an Australian five pound looked like - such
an unimaginably large sum!
Andrew "trey, zac, bob - more my speed" Lewis
David Lesher
lsto...@pyrtech.mis.pyramid.com (Lon Stowell) writes:
> Tell you what. YOU go bust the CIA.
After the Hill got a letter on NSA stationary alleging hanky-panky,
several Feebs *did* show up at DIRNSA's office with a search warrant.
This reported in major media within last year or so.
To have been a fly on the wall when they showed up, so little to
ask...
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
Myles Paulson
In article <334ef9d3...@news.m.iinet.net.au>, Tim Richards & Narrelle Harris (para...@iinet.net.au) writes:
>On 11 Apr 1997 15:13:26 GMT, "Mitcho" <mit...@netcom.com> wrote:
>>Frankly, I have always been mystified that anyone would attempt to
>>counterfeit, say, sterling, when the US dollar can be copied off so much
>>more easily.
>
>I think so too, it's a fairly simple design and shape, and very
>limited in colour range. You should see the new notes we have in
>Australia: they're made of plastic, tho they have the feel of banknote
>paper, and include anti-theft devices like microprint and a clear
>window in a corner of each one. They're also brightly-coloured, but
>the old notes were like that as well. Apparently not a single
>counterfeit copy of the new notes has been produced in the five years
>they've been around.
>
try ironing them - if your put an iron on some thin plastic you
will get an idea of what happens. The transparent area on the
plastic means they would be hard to copy, although perhaps they
could be printed on overhead projector transparencies.
I find they don't feel right. They fold badly, and they can spring
apart when you try to put a big wad in your wallet.
Myles "as if that was my biggest problem" Paulson
--
Myles Paulson <xexr...@wackydoo.dialix.oz.au>