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Enterprise - "Regeneration"

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Alex Peckover

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Mar 8, 2004, 1:36:08 AM3/8/04
to
Episode aired on Channel 4 on Sunday 7th of March, 2004. This episode will
be repeated on Wednesday 10th of March and as such all discussion should
remain protected by spoiler space for a period of one week.

Plot Points

* A survey team has discovered the remnants of a crashed ship in the Artic
Circle. Amongst the wreckage were two unusual, frozen corpses. The team
soon discovered that they were not human, and had been there for over a
century. The aliens were covered in cybernetic implants and scans revealed
that they were not of the same species, or of any species they could
identify. The aliens bloodstreams were filled with nano-technology
that repaired both their organic and cybernetic systems, restoring them to
life. Once awake, the aliens used tubials in their arms to transfer the
nano-technology to the survey team.

* Enterprise received orders from Admiral Forrest, telling them to track
down the survey team's ship, which had been commandeered by the aliens and
upgraded to travel at a higher warp speed than it was normally capable of.
Receiving a distress call from a Tarkalean ship, Enterprise moved to
investigate and found the ship under attack from the aliens.
Only two crew members remained after Enterprise drove the aliens off, and
both had been infected with the nano-technology. The Tarkaleans quickly
recovered and began acting like the aliens, infecting Phlox and modifying
several of Enterprise's systems before Archer blew a hatch which sucked
them out in to space. When Enterprise caught up with the survey ship, it
had been upgraded even further, and the modified systems kicked in,
disabling Enterprise. Archer and Reed transported aboard the aliens ship
and sabotaged it long enough for Trip to repair their weapons. The ship
quickly began to repair itself, but Enterprise destroyed it before it could
do any further damage.

* When fired upon, the aliens seemed to quickly adapt to standard phase
pistols and put up personal defence shields soon afterward. Even Malcolm's
upgraded phase pistols proved to be ineffective after a few shots.

* While researching the aliens, Archer remember a speech given by Zephram
Cochrane. In it, he described how cybernetic aliens from the future had
attempted to stop his first warp flight but humans, also from the future,
prevented them from doing so. Cochrane soon withdrew the story and it was
generally believed that it was just down to Cochrane's
tendancy to invent stories, and his habitual drinking.

* Although he found a way to cure himself as his Denobulan immune system
impeded the nano-technology, Phlox described feeling like he was part of a
group conciousness. He told Archer and T'Pol that he heard a set of
co-ordinates over and over again, and that they had transmitted those
co-ordinates - the co-ordinates for Earth - via subspace to somewhere deep
in the Delta Quadrant of our galaxy. Although the message will take
nearly 200 years to get to its destination, Archer fears that they may only
have postponed the invasion until some time in the 24th century...

Stuff

* I don't think there's anyone out there who doesn't realise who the
"cybernetic aliens" described above were. The format of these reports,
however, dictates that in the plot points section what the characters don't
know, we don't know.

* The scientists described finding traces of anti-matter residue on the
wreckage. I assume this is intended to refer to the fact that the Borg
sphere was destroyed by quantum torpedoes fired by the Enterprise-E.
However, DS9 generally suggested that quantum torpedoes are not based on
anti-matter technology like photon torpedoes are. In fact, I always assumed
that quantum torpedoes were specifically designed to fight the Borg as the
first ship to use them was the Defiant, which was created as an anti-Borg
warship.

* In a nice reference, Phlox mentions another cybernetic race he once
encountered - the Bynars from Beta Magellan. Presumably Beta Magellan is
either more common name for the Bynaus system or it was just a colony - but
then the event of "11001001" suggest that they didn't have any colonies.

* Will anyone be interested in the wreckage of the Borg ship ? It contains
22nd century technology, upgraded to 24th century Borg standards.

* Archer tells Phlox that he should be in bed at the end - why ? Denobulans
hibernate, they don't sleep like we do.

* We have seen Admiral Forrest's aide before. Commander Williams (played by
Jim Fitzpatrick) was also in "Broken Bow", "Shockwave, Part Two" and
"Future Tense".

* There must be something very special about the Denobulan immune system.
No disrespect to Phlox, but even 24th century science has been unable to
discover a way to counteract infection by Borg nanoprobes.

Alex


David Dorward

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Mar 8, 2004, 2:16:51 AM3/8/04
to
Plot points:

* Ensign Cutler has been taken over by a snake like creature as spent the
episode claiming she was 'The Master'

* Ensign Cutler (AKA 'The Master') tried to perform surgery on T'Pol to see
if she really was cold and emotionless, but she found that the Vulcan
actually possessed a heart.

* T'Pol woke up in the middle of surgery, escaped, and watched Frankenstein.

* T'Pol has revealed herself to be half human and has aquired a new pair of
shoes which fit perfectly.

* T'Pol stole a motorcycle and came back 2 hours later with an atomic clock
which she fitted to the helm.

* She then attempted to look into the Eye of Harmony inside the Warp Core,
but her eyes weren't entirely human so it didn't work.

* Cutler turned up in a new dress and forced Archer to stare into the eye.

* Daniels turned up, pulled the Enterprise back through time for 24 hours,
and stopped the whole thing from ever happening.

--
David Dorward <http://dorward.me.uk/>

Alex Peckover

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Mar 8, 2004, 2:27:21 AM3/8/04
to
"David Dorward" <dor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c2h6s3$dqu$1$8302...@news.demon.co.uk

What on Earth are you on about ?

Alex


Derek

unread,
Mar 8, 2004, 3:04:52 AM3/8/04
to

"Alex Peckover" <al...@SPAMOFF.uklinux.net> wrote in message
news:c2h48r$1ti60d$1...@ID-32143.news.uni-berlin.de...

> Episode aired on Channel 4 on Sunday 7th of March, 2004. This episode will
> be repeated on Wednesday 10th of March and as such all discussion should
> remain protected by spoiler space for a period of one week.
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> * I don't think there's anyone out there who doesn't realise who the
> "cybernetic aliens" described above were. The format of these reports,
> however, dictates that in the plot points section what the characters
don't
> know, we don't know.

Well, *I* didnt. Was it a reference to aliens we've seen in other Trek
shows? I got that familiar feeling about them.

> * The scientists described finding traces of anti-matter residue on the
> wreckage. I assume this is intended to refer to the fact that the Borg
> sphere was destroyed by quantum torpedoes fired by the Enterprise-E.
> However, DS9 generally suggested that quantum torpedoes are not based on
> anti-matter technology like photon torpedoes are. In fact, I always
assumed
> that quantum torpedoes were specifically designed to fight the Borg as the
> first ship to use them was the Defiant, which was created as an anti-Borg
> warship.

What the hell *is* antimatter resideue anyway? I'm no nuclear physicist like
Stephen Hawking or Denise Richards, but I was under the impression that
antimatter didn't mix well with matter.

> * Will anyone be interested in the wreckage of the Borg ship ? It contains
> 22nd century technology, upgraded to 24th century Borg standards.

After Archer's report, I think that Admiral's gonna bomb the Arcitc Circle
back to the, uh, Ice Age....

> * Archer tells Phlox that he should be in bed at the end - why ?
Denobulans
> hibernate, they don't sleep like we do.

Well, resting anyway. Or settling back with a cup of Denoublan coffee or the
latest Bridget Jones.

> * There must be something very special about the Denobulan immune system.
> No disrespect to Phlox, but even 24th century science has been unable to
> discover a way to counteract infection by Borg nanoprobes.

Given the amount of cross-referencing in the show ("holographic bullets",
Reed? Puh-leeze!) I was hoping for some more on this.
My theory is that the few that had survived when the Arctic figures were
revived acted like biological infections, and mutated, albeit into a damaged
form (Reed's success at adapting his primitive phase pistol to do better
than Worf could later on in defeating the Borg, and Phlox's resistance to
being taken over seemed to suggest this, though as you say his system *must*
be very special, given that unlike the rest of us he only sleeps a few days
a year, implying his is a highly energised system), allowing for omicron
radiation therapy. Or possibly that most beings can be harmed by omicron
radiation, thus negating the effects of such a therapy on those
Borg-infected, and that Denoublans are resistant to it.

I have to say that they pulled off this cross-show rip-off- sorry, homage,
better than they had any right to be. Possibly because the reason for the
Borg being there was more plausible than in other shows (the Ferengi happen
to show up, then skedaddle for two centuries?). Enjoyed the Thing-like
sequences in the Arctic, with none of the regulars appearing. Rolled my eyes
when the Enterprise just happened to be in the neighbourhood to intercept
the assimilated ship, but rolled with it.
What worked:
*Billingsley's performance as Phlox was slowly taken over, all facial tics,
stilted speech and unnatural movements to show his anguish.
*Phlox and Hoshi's scene in sickbay. He's hurting, scared and anguished, and
she reaches out to him - a nice continuation of their friendship from
earlier episodes. And because he's her friend, he has to send her away,
although he does, reluctantly, let her stay a while.
*Archer's almost desperate efforts to want to help the infected researchers,
and the fact that he couldn't.
*The fact that, basically, this is an alteration of the timeline. You can't
avoid it, nor hit the reset button. The events of First Contact, Cochrane's
drunken ramblings and the events of this episode will still be on a file
somewhere in the 24th Century. Given how a reference to someone taking a
shower with their clothes on will be in Starfleet records in the 24th C
("The Naked Now"), *this* has gotta be here for the future when the Borg
make their first official appearance.

Derek


Derek

unread,
Mar 8, 2004, 3:05:36 AM3/8/04
to

"Alex Peckover" <al...@SPAMOFF.uklinux.net> wrote in message
news:c2h78q$1t5qe2$1...@ID-32143.news.uni-berlin.de...

Doctor Who: The Movie


Alex Peckover

unread,
Mar 8, 2004, 3:19:45 AM3/8/04
to
"Derek" <NoS...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c2h9f5$1tg71s$1...@ID-209775.news.uni-berlin.de

> "Alex Peckover" <al...@SPAMOFF.uklinux.net> wrote in message
> news:c2h48r$1ti60d$1...@ID-32143.news.uni-berlin.de...
>> Episode aired on Channel 4 on Sunday 7th of March, 2004. This episode
>> will be repeated on Wednesday 10th of March and as such all discussion
>> should remain protected by spoiler space for a period of one week.
>>
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>> * I don't think there's anyone out there who doesn't realise who the
>> "cybernetic aliens" described above were. The format of these reports,
>> however, dictates that in the plot points section what the characters
>> don't know, we don't know.
>
> Well, *I* didnt. Was it a reference to aliens we've seen in other Trek
> shows? I got that familiar feeling about them.

Go and watch the 184th re-run of Star Trek: The Next Generation all the way
through and then come back.

>
>> * The scientists described finding traces of anti-matter residue on the
>> wreckage. I assume this is intended to refer to the fact that the Borg
>> sphere was destroyed by quantum torpedoes fired by the Enterprise-E.
>> However, DS9 generally suggested that quantum torpedoes are not based on
>> anti-matter technology like photon torpedoes are. In fact, I always
>> assumed that quantum torpedoes were specifically designed to fight the
>> Borg as the first ship to use them was the Defiant, which was created
>> as an anti-Borg warship.
>
> What the hell *is* antimatter resideue anyway? I'm no nuclear physicist
> like Stephen Hawking or Denise Richards, but I was under the impression
> that antimatter didn't mix well with matter.

Perhaps he meant some tell-tale residual effect left behind by an
anti-matter explosion.

>
>> * Will anyone be interested in the wreckage of the Borg ship ? It
>> contains 22nd century technology, upgraded to 24th century Borg
>> standards.
>
> After Archer's report, I think that Admiral's gonna bomb the Arcitc
> Circle back to the, uh, Ice Age....

Ri-ight.

>
>> * Archer tells Phlox that he should be in bed at the end - why ?
>> Denobulans hibernate, they don't sleep like we do.
>
> Well, resting anyway. Or settling back with a cup of Denoublan coffee or
> the latest Bridget Jones.

If someone is still writing those by the mid-22nd century then humanity is
doomed.

>
>> * There must be something very special about the Denobulan immune
>> system. No disrespect to Phlox, but even 24th century science has been
>> unable to discover a way to counteract infection by Borg nanoprobes.
>
> Given the amount of cross-referencing in the show ("holographic bullets",
> Reed? Puh-leeze!) I was hoping for some more on this.

He obviously doesn't realise that holographic bullets can kill if the
safeties are off.

> My theory is that the few that had survived when the Arctic figures were
> revived acted like biological infections, and mutated, albeit into a
> damaged form (Reed's success at adapting his primitive phase pistol to
> do better than Worf could later on in defeating the Borg,

Give the Enterprise-D crew credit, they adapted their phasers with chips to
continuously change the frequency after each shot. All Malcolm did was turn
up the power, leaving the weapon with a dangerously long recharge time.

> and Phlox's
> resistance to being taken over seemed to suggest this, though as you say
> his system *must* be very special, given that unlike the rest of us he
> only sleeps a few days a year, implying his is a highly energised
> system), allowing for omicron radiation therapy. Or possibly that most
> beings can be harmed by omicron radiation, thus negating the effects of
> such a therapy on those Borg-infected, and that Denoublans are resistant
> to it.

That's a good point.

> I have to say that they pulled off this cross-show rip-off- sorry,
> homage, better than they had any right to be. Possibly because the
> reason for the Borg being there was more plausible than in other shows

It further proves my theory that time travel (by the Borg, Daniels,
FutureGuy, the other factions in the temporal cold war etc) has screwed up
the "original" version of events presented in TNG.

> (the Ferengi happen to show up, then skedaddle for two centuries?).

They didn't skedaddle, Nog says in "Little Green Men" that the Ferengi
bought warp drive technology - perhaps they didn't have very many warp
capable ships at the time. Besides, they were "around" before TNG - Picard
says in "Encounter at Farpoint" that they had heard of a race called the
Ferengi long before they actually appeared in "The Last Outpost".

> Enjoyed the Thing-like sequences in the Arctic, with none of the
> regulars appearing. Rolled my eyes when the Enterprise just happened to
> be in the neighbourhood to intercept the assimilated ship, but rolled
> with it.
> What worked:
> *Billingsley's performance as Phlox was slowly taken over, all facial
> tics, stilted speech and unnatural movements to show his anguish.
> *Phlox and Hoshi's scene in sickbay. He's hurting, scared and anguished,
> and she reaches out to him - a nice continuation of their friendship from
> earlier episodes. And because he's her friend, he has to send her away,
> although he does, reluctantly, let her stay a while.

Nah, he was just thinking "come here and let me infect you with my
tubials".

> *Archer's almost desperate efforts to want to help the infected
> researchers, and the fact that he couldn't.
> *The fact that, basically, this is an alteration of the timeline. You
> can't avoid it, nor hit the reset button. The events of First Contact,
> Cochrane's drunken ramblings and the events of this episode will still
> be on a file somewhere in the 24th Century. Given how a reference to
> someone taking a shower with their clothes on will be in Starfleet
> records in the 24th C ("The Naked Now"), *this* has gotta be here for
> the future when the Borg make their first official appearance.

Yes, that's my point exactly. Time travel has messed up the timeline to the
point where key events have been radically altered.

Alex


Michael Murray

unread,
Mar 8, 2004, 8:40:39 AM3/8/04
to

"Alex Peckover" <al...@SPAMOFF.uklinux.net> wrote in message
news:c2h48r$1ti60d$1...@ID-32143.news.uni-berlin.de...
> Episode aired on Channel 4 on Sunday 7th of March, 2004. This episode will
> be repeated on Wednesday 10th of March and as such all discussion should
> remain protected by spoiler space for a period of one week.
>
>
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Snip

Ok this was a good episode but the fact that 24CENTURY BORG were in it
spoils it. The Borg in the Artic were the Borg left over from Star Trek
First Contact, back when the Borg were deadly (before Voyager turned them
crap), surely the first thing they would have done was to assimlate Earth -
thats what they were doing in First Contact I doubt they would have much
problems assimlating Earth.

More things are just wrong:

- Starfleet now knows about the Borg (alright they don't know there name -
but they know they want to destroy Earth, this is hardly the same as when
Archer encountered the Ferengi).

- The way Archer went to contact Admiral Forest suggests to me that
Starfleet would start getting ready for the Borg now - they did it in Q Who,
and they didn't even know if the Borg knew where Earth was.

- The Borg's shielding and adaptness seemed poorly thought out - some where
adapted some weren't - they are all linked so they all should be - The
guards on Enterprise had 1 or 2 shots while Reed and Archer had a lot.
Surely the Borg should already be adapted to 22 century weaponary?

- Reed and Archer boarded and blew the Borg ship up way to easily - there
was no air of danger

- Phlox being somewhat resistant to nanoprobes, surely Starfleet would be
interested in this?

- Why did the Borg beam back to their ship at the end?

- Blaming it all on time travel seems a cop out to me - whats the point of
doing a prequel series if they are going to change everything.

- Interestingly one of the Star Trek novels by William Shanter (the ones
where Kirk comes back alive) suggested that the mirror universe was created
because of First Contact and the mirror universe is the one where they knew
about the Borg nowish and were ready for them - but i doubt the script
writers had read the book.

- This just seemed to be an episode to try and attract non trek or casoul
trek fans


--
Michael Murray


Alex Peckover

unread,
Mar 8, 2004, 8:55:56 AM3/8/04
to
"Michael Murray" <NOSPAMmichaeltmurray(uk)@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:c2ht81$1quv1h$1...@ID-148207.news.uni-berlin.de

> "Alex Peckover" <al...@SPAMOFF.uklinux.net> wrote in message
> news:c2h48r$1ti60d$1...@ID-32143.news.uni-berlin.de...
>> Episode aired on Channel 4 on Sunday 7th of March, 2004. This episode
>> will be repeated on Wednesday 10th of March and as such all discussion
>> should remain protected by spoiler space for a period of one week.
>>
>>
>>
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> Snip
>
> Ok this was a good episode but the fact that 24CENTURY BORG were in it
> spoils it. The Borg in the Artic were the Borg left over from Star Trek
> First Contact, back when the Borg were deadly (before Voyager turned them
> crap), surely the first thing they would have done was to assimlate
> Earth - thats what they were doing in First Contact I doubt they would
> have much problems assimlating Earth.

There were only two or three of them, they would have no chance against
Starfleet.

> More things are just wrong:
>
> - Starfleet now knows about the Borg (alright they don't know there name
> - but they know they want to destroy Earth, this is hardly the same as
> when Archer encountered the Ferengi).

This is a problem created by Star Trek: First Contact, not this episode.

>
> - The way Archer went to contact Admiral Forest suggests to me that
> Starfleet would start getting ready for the Borg now - they did it in Q
> Who, and they didn't even know if the Borg knew where Earth was.

Again, this is a problem created by First Contact.

>
> - The Borg's shielding and adaptness seemed poorly thought out - some
> where adapted some weren't - they are all linked so they all should be -
> The guards on Enterprise had 1 or 2 shots while Reed and Archer had a
> lot. Surely the Borg should already be adapted to 22 century weaponary?

Not if they have never encountered it. Think Replicators in Stargate SG-1.

As for the security teams, presumably they weren't carrying the modified
phase pistols Malcolm and Archer were.

>
> - Reed and Archer boarded and blew the Borg ship up way to easily - there
> was no air of danger

You could say the same about Shelby, Beverly, Worf and Data retrieving
Picard/Locutus from the Borg ship in "The Best of Both Worlds, Part Two".

>
> - Phlox being somewhat resistant to nanoprobes, surely Starfleet would be
> interested in this?

Depends on whether or not it can be duplicated in non-Denobulans.

>
> - Why did the Borg beam back to their ship at the end?

Archer and Malcolm killed a number of the Borg on the survey ship, and
there were only 23 to begin with. Perhaps they needed the manpower to
repair the ship.

>
> - Blaming it all on time travel seems a cop out to me - whats the point
> of doing a prequel series if they are going to change everything.

None of this would have happened had the 24th century Borg not tried to
assimilate Earth in the 21st century, so time travel is the only
explanation.

>
> - Interestingly one of the Star Trek novels by William Shanter (the ones
> where Kirk comes back alive) suggested that the mirror universe was
> created because of First Contact and the mirror universe is the one
> where they knew about the Borg nowish and were ready for them - but i
> doubt the script writers had read the book.

There are only a few books that are considered canon, and only where they
are not contradicted by TV series and films:

* The Star Trek Encyclopedia. (Later versions invalidating older ones)
* The Star Trek Chronology.
* The Star Trek: The Next Generation and Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
Technical Manuals.
* Mosaic and Pathways - two books designed to serve as character
backgrounds for Janeway (Mosaic) and the rest of the cast (Pathways).

Alex


j. van der knaap

unread,
Mar 8, 2004, 9:46:01 AM3/8/04
to
Alex Peckover wrote:

> "Michael Murray" <NOSPAMmichaeltmurray(uk)@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:c2ht81$1quv1h$1...@ID-148207.news.uni-berlin.de
>
>>"Alex Peckover" <al...@SPAMOFF.uklinux.net> wrote in message
>>news:c2h48r$1ti60d$1...@ID-32143.news.uni-berlin.de...
>>
>>>Episode aired on Channel 4 on Sunday 7th of March, 2004. This episode
>>>will be repeated on Wednesday 10th of March and as such all discussion
>>>should remain protected by spoiler space for a period of one week.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>Snip
>>
>>Ok this was a good episode but the fact that 24CENTURY BORG were in it
>>spoils it. The Borg in the Artic were the Borg left over from Star Trek
>>First Contact, back when the Borg were deadly (before Voyager turned them
>>crap), surely the first thing they would have done was to assimlate
>>Earth - thats what they were doing in First Contact I doubt they would
>>have much problems assimlating Earth.
>
> There were only two or three of them, they would have no chance against
> Starfleet.

Not in a direct confrontation no, but that doesn't need to happen. All
the Borg have to do is, is shore up their numbers until they're too many
to be stopped. That's their whole mode of operation.

This is an example of the only real gripe I have with Startrek ep
writers. They can tell great tales, but when it comes to tactics and
strategy they leave much to be desired. I'm no Sun Tzu, but some of the
tactical decisions (and I'm not talking about just this ep) are pretty
stupid and sometimes even out of character (with the Borg more frequent
than others).

A ruthless, relentless menace like the 24th century Borg would not pack
up and leave to report back to the Delta Quad. They'd stay right there
on Earth and assimilate the hell out of it. All they'd have to do, is
make sure they keep a low profile and work as stealthily as possible for
as long as needed. Of course there'd be no Enterprise story there, so I
do understand *why* the writers went with their plot. But it just
doesn't add up.

Joost

Michael Murray

unread,
Mar 8, 2004, 9:45:30 AM3/8/04
to

"Alex Peckover" <al...@SPAMOFF.uklinux.net> wrote in message
news:c2hu1j$1s7m9o$1...@ID-32143.news.uni-berlin.de...

> "Michael Murray" <NOSPAMmichaeltmurray(uk)@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:c2ht81$1quv1h$1...@ID-148207.news.uni-berlin.de
> > "Alex Peckover" <al...@SPAMOFF.uklinux.net> wrote in message
> > news:c2h48r$1ti60d$1...@ID-32143.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >> Episode aired on Channel 4 on Sunday 7th of March, 2004. This episode
> >> will be repeated on Wednesday 10th of March and as such all discussion
> >> should remain protected by spoiler space for a period of one week.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >>
> > Snip
> >
> > Ok this was a good episode but the fact that 24CENTURY BORG were in it
> > spoils it. The Borg in the Artic were the Borg left over from Star Trek
> > First Contact, back when the Borg were deadly (before Voyager turned
them
> > crap), surely the first thing they would have done was to assimlate
> > Earth - thats what they were doing in First Contact I doubt they would
> > have much problems assimlating Earth.
>
> There were only two or three of them, they would have no chance against
> Starfleet.

If they assimalted civilians away from starfleets eyes they could amass a
fair few borg, though I would assume that countries would still have their
own armies?

> > More things are just wrong:
> >
> > - Starfleet now knows about the Borg (alright they don't know there name
> > - but they know they want to destroy Earth, this is hardly the same as
> > when Archer encountered the Ferengi).
>
> This is a problem created by Star Trek: First Contact, not this episode.

Until this episode no-one knew any Borg had survived, and Cochrane's speech
about the Borg was generaly thought to be one of his drunken stories.

> >
> > - The way Archer went to contact Admiral Forest suggests to me that
> > Starfleet would start getting ready for the Borg now - they did it in Q
> > Who, and they didn't even know if the Borg knew where Earth was.
>
> Again, this is a problem created by First Contact.
>
> >
> > - The Borg's shielding and adaptness seemed poorly thought out - some
> > where adapted some weren't - they are all linked so they all should be -
> > The guards on Enterprise had 1 or 2 shots while Reed and Archer had a
> > lot. Surely the Borg should already be adapted to 22 century weaponary?
>
> Not if they have never encountered it. Think Replicators in Stargate SG-1.

Surely the Borg would have encountered phaser pistols before, I don't think
they would be the same probs as the bullets in First Contact (or even the
Replicators), phase pistols are basicly primative phasers so they should
have had little effect on the borg - bullets used an entirely different
technology

> As for the security teams, presumably they weren't carrying the modified
> phase pistols Malcolm and Archer were.
>
> >
> > - Reed and Archer boarded and blew the Borg ship up way to easily -
there
> > was no air of danger
>
> You could say the same about Shelby, Beverly, Worf and Data retrieving
> Picard/Locutus from the Borg ship in "The Best of Both Worlds, Part Two".
>

Yeah, the borg could do with better security.

> > - Phlox being somewhat resistant to nanoprobes, surely Starfleet would
be
> > interested in this?
>
> Depends on whether or not it can be duplicated in non-Denobulans.
>
> >
> > - Why did the Borg beam back to their ship at the end?
>
> Archer and Malcolm killed a number of the Borg on the survey ship, and
> there were only 23 to begin with. Perhaps they needed the manpower to
> repair the ship.
>

Yeah, but enterprise's phase pistols were by then useless - the borg could
have assimulated Enterprise and would have been free.


> > - Blaming it all on time travel seems a cop out to me - whats the point
> > of doing a prequel series if they are going to change everything.
>
> None of this would have happened had the 24th century Borg not tried to
> assimilate Earth in the 21st century, so time travel is the only
> explanation.
>

Interestingly Archer hasn't neccesairly killed the borg - if they could
survive being destoyed by the 1701-E and surviving impact (how they survived
that is a mistry) and being frozen - blowing up there ship would more than
likely leave a couple floating in space as well as the 2 they blew out
before.


--
Michael Murray


j. van der knaap

unread,
Mar 8, 2004, 9:53:41 AM3/8/04
to
Michael Murray wrote:

> "Alex Peckover" <al...@SPAMOFF.uklinux.net> wrote in message
> news:c2hu1j$1s7m9o$1...@ID-32143.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
>>"Michael Murray" <NOSPAMmichaeltmurray(uk)@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>>news:c2ht81$1quv1h$1...@ID-148207.news.uni-berlin.de
>>
>>>"Alex Peckover" <al...@SPAMOFF.uklinux.net> wrote in message
>>>news:c2h48r$1ti60d$1...@ID-32143.news.uni-berlin.de...
>>>
>>>>Episode aired on Channel 4 on Sunday 7th of March, 2004. This episode
>>>>will be repeated on Wednesday 10th of March and as such all discussion
>>>>should remain protected by spoiler space for a period of one week.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>Snip
>>>

>>>- Reed and Archer boarded and blew the Borg ship up way to easily - there was no air of danger
>>
>>You could say the same about Shelby, Beverly, Worf and Data retrieving
>>Picard/Locutus from the Borg ship in "The Best of Both Worlds, Part Two".
>
> Yeah, the borg could do with better security.

They got what they deserved when they assimilated Bill Gates. :-)

Joost

Alex Peckover

unread,
Mar 8, 2004, 10:15:49 AM3/8/04
to
"Michael Murray" <NOSPAMmichaeltmurray(uk)@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:c2i11k$1tg4qg$1...@ID-148207.news.uni-berlin.de

> "Alex Peckover" <al...@SPAMOFF.uklinux.net> wrote in message
> news:c2hu1j$1s7m9o$1...@ID-32143.news.uni-berlin.de...
>> "Michael Murray" <NOSPAMmichaeltmurray(uk)@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:c2ht81$1quv1h$1...@ID-148207.news.uni-berlin.de
>>> "Alex Peckover" <al...@SPAMOFF.uklinux.net> wrote in message
>>> news:c2h48r$1ti60d$1...@ID-32143.news.uni-berlin.de...
>>>> Episode aired on Channel 4 on Sunday 7th of March, 2004. This episode
>>>> will be repeated on Wednesday 10th of March and as such all discussion
>>>> should remain protected by spoiler space for a period of one week.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>> Snip
>>>
>>> Ok this was a good episode but the fact that 24CENTURY BORG were in it
>>> spoils it. The Borg in the Artic were the Borg left over from Star Trek
>>> First Contact, back when the Borg were deadly (before Voyager turned
>>> them crap), surely the first thing they would have done was to
>>> assimlate Earth - thats what they were doing in First Contact I doubt
>>> they would have much problems assimlating Earth.
>>
>> There were only two or three of them, they would have no chance against
>> Starfleet.
>
> If they assimalted civilians away from starfleets eyes they could amass a
> fair few borg, though I would assume that countries would still have
> their own armies?

There is an answer to that, but it's a spoiler so I'll post some further
space below.

>>> More things are just wrong:
>>>
>>> - Starfleet now knows about the Borg (alright they don't know there
>>> name
>>> - but they know they want to destroy Earth, this is hardly the same as
>>> when Archer encountered the Ferengi).
>>
>> This is a problem created by Star Trek: First Contact, not this episode.
>
> Until this episode no-one knew any Borg had survived, and Cochrane's
> speech about the Borg was generaly thought to be one of his drunken
> stories.

First Contact created the scenario where everything after the point they
arrived was changed.

>>> - The Borg's shielding and adaptness seemed poorly thought out - some
>>> where adapted some weren't - they are all linked so they all should be
>>> - The guards on Enterprise had 1 or 2 shots while Reed and Archer had a
>>> lot. Surely the Borg should already be adapted to 22 century weaponary?
>>
>> Not if they have never encountered it. Think Replicators in Stargate
>> SG-1.
>
> Surely the Borg would have encountered phaser pistols before, I don't
> think they would be the same probs as the bullets in First Contact (or
> even the Replicators), phase pistols are basicly primative phasers so
> they should have had little effect on the borg - bullets used an
> entirely different technology

They haven't encountered that exact model of phase pistol before, as their
previous encounters with Starfleet took place in the 24th century.

>>> - Reed and Archer boarded and blew the Borg ship up way to easily -
>>> there was no air of danger
>>
>> You could say the same about Shelby, Beverly, Worf and Data retrieving
>> Picard/Locutus from the Borg ship in "The Best of Both Worlds, Part
>> Two".
>>
>
> Yeah, the borg could do with better security.

Yes, but we have seen that they ignore intruders in the past so while a bit
daft, it's not inconsistent with their previous behaviour.

>> Archer and Malcolm killed a number of the Borg on the survey ship, and
>> there were only 23 to begin with. Perhaps they needed the manpower to
>> repair the ship.
>>
>
> Yeah, but enterprise's phase pistols were by then useless - the borg
> could have assimulated Enterprise and would have been free.

True.

>>> - Blaming it all on time travel seems a cop out to me - whats the point
>>> of doing a prequel series if they are going to change everything.
>>
>> None of this would have happened had the 24th century Borg not tried to
>> assimilate Earth in the 21st century, so time travel is the only
>> explanation.
>>
>
> Interestingly Archer hasn't neccesairly killed the borg - if they could
> survive being destoyed by the 1701-E and surviving impact (how they
> survived that is a mistry) and being frozen - blowing up there ship
> would more than likely leave a couple floating in space as well as the 2
> they blew out before.

Good point - several Borg survived the near destruction of their ship in
"Scorpion, Part One", for instance.

Alex


Alex Peckover

unread,
Mar 8, 2004, 10:18:08 AM3/8/04
to
"j. van der knaap" <spam...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:c2i0va$1s1a0i$1...@ID-152161.news.uni-berlin.de

> Alex Peckover wrote:
>
>> "Michael Murray" <NOSPAMmichaeltmurray(uk)@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:c2ht81$1quv1h$1...@ID-148207.news.uni-berlin.de
>>
>>> "Alex Peckover" <al...@SPAMOFF.uklinux.net> wrote in message
>>> news:c2h48r$1ti60d$1...@ID-32143.news.uni-berlin.de...
>>>
>>>> Episode aired on Channel 4 on Sunday 7th of March, 2004. This episode
>>>> will be repeated on Wednesday 10th of March and as such all discussion
>>>> should remain protected by spoiler space for a period of one week.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>> Snip
>>>
>>> Ok this was a good episode but the fact that 24CENTURY BORG were in it
>>> spoils it. The Borg in the Artic were the Borg left over from Star Trek
>>> First Contact, back when the Borg were deadly (before Voyager turned
>>> them crap), surely the first thing they would have done was to
>>> assimlate Earth - thats what they were doing in First Contact I doubt
>>> they would have much problems assimlating Earth.
>>
>> There were only two or three of them, they would have no chance against
>> Starfleet.
>
> Not in a direct confrontation no, but that doesn't need to happen. All
> the Borg have to do is, is shore up their numbers until they're too many
> to be stopped. That's their whole mode of operation.

At worst, Starfleet could just torpedo the entire region. It wouldn't be
very pretty but it would be effective.

> This is an example of the only real gripe I have with Startrek ep
> writers. They can tell great tales, but when it comes to tactics and
> strategy they leave much to be desired. I'm no Sun Tzu, but some of the
> tactical decisions (and I'm not talking about just this ep) are pretty
> stupid and sometimes even out of character (with the Borg more frequent
> than others).

The Borg typically rely on sheer brute force, superior firepower and
overwhelming numbers to succeed. There is not normally anything
particularly clever about their tactics. Riker easily outsmarted them in


"The Best of Both Worlds, Part Two".

> A ruthless, relentless menace like the 24th century Borg would not pack


> up and leave to report back to the Delta Quad. They'd stay right there
> on Earth and assimilate the hell out of it. All they'd have to do, is
> make sure they keep a low profile and work as stealthily as possible for
> as long as needed. Of course there'd be no Enterprise story there, so I
> do understand *why* the writers went with their plot. But it just
> doesn't add up.

They're smart enough to know they'd lose. Assimilating Earth would take a
large effort, not just a few drones.

Alex


Alex Peckover

unread,
Mar 8, 2004, 10:19:25 AM3/8/04
to
"Mark Myers" <spam...@see.sig> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ab691158...@news.alt.net
> Alex Peckover wrote ...

>> "Derek" <NoS...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:c2h9f5$1tg71s$1...@ID-209775.news.uni-berlin.de
>>> "Alex Peckover" <al...@SPAMOFF.uklinux.net> wrote in message
>>> news:c2h48r$1ti60d$1...@ID-32143.news.uni-berlin.de...
>>>> Episode aired on Channel 4 on Sunday 7th of March, 2004. This episode
>>>> will be repeated on Wednesday 10th of March and as such all discussion
>>>> should remain protected by spoiler space for a period of one week.
>>>>
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>>> *Archer's almost desperate efforts to want to help the infected
>>> researchers, and the fact that he couldn't.
>>> *The fact that, basically, this is an alteration of the timeline. You
>>> can't avoid it, nor hit the reset button. The events of First Contact,
>>> Cochrane's drunken ramblings and the events of this episode will still
>>> be on a file somewhere in the 24th Century. Given how a reference to
>>> someone taking a shower with their clothes on will be in Starfleet
>>> records in the 24th C ("The Naked Now"), *this* has gotta be here for
>>> the future when the Borg make their first official appearance.
>>
>> Yes, that's my point exactly. Time travel has messed up the timeline to
>> the point where key events have been radically altered.
>
> Also known as a dirty great cop out. Having said that, I really quite
> enjoyed this episode. I just wish they hadn't gone down the altered
> timeline route AT ALL.

The timeline was altered the second FutureGuy made contact with the
Suliban.

Alex


Alex Peckover

unread,
Mar 8, 2004, 10:21:17 AM3/8/04
to
"Mark Myers" <spam...@see.sig> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ab697221...@news.alt.net
> Alex Peckover wrote ...

>> "Michael Murray" <NOSPAMmichaeltmurray(uk)@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:c2ht81$1quv1h$1...@ID-148207.news.uni-berlin.de
>>> "Alex Peckover" <al...@SPAMOFF.uklinux.net> wrote in message
>>> news:c2h48r$1ti60d$1...@ID-32143.news.uni-berlin.de...
>>>> Episode aired on Channel 4 on Sunday 7th of March, 2004. This episode
>>>> will be repeated on Wednesday 10th of March and as such all discussion
>>>> should remain protected by spoiler space for a period of one week.
>>>>
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>>> - The way Archer went to contact Admiral Forest suggests to me that
>>> Starfleet would start getting ready for the Borg now - they did it in Q
>>> Who, and they didn't even know if the Borg knew where Earth was.
>>
>> Again, this is a problem created by First Contact.
>
> How so? It only becomes a problem if 22nd century folk discover the
> Borg, which happens in this episode.

First Contact changed the events that happened that day in 2063. Cochrane
and Lily were supposed to just fire up the ship and launch, with the
Vulcans spotting them. Riker and Geordi were not supposed to be passengers,
Lily wasn't supposed to go aboard the Enterprise, the shanty town Cochrane
was living in was not supposed to be attacked etc.

Alex


j. van der knaap

unread,
Mar 8, 2004, 11:07:17 AM3/8/04
to
Alex Peckover wrote:

Which is why the Borg should spread as widely as possible as soon as
possible. Hell, assimilate an Orca for all I care and have it swim to
remote, densily populated areas. :-)

>>This is an example of the only real gripe I have with Startrek ep
>>writers. They can tell great tales, but when it comes to tactics and
>>strategy they leave much to be desired. I'm no Sun Tzu, but some of the
>>tactical decisions (and I'm not talking about just this ep) are pretty
>>stupid and sometimes even out of character (with the Borg more frequent
>>than others).
>
> The Borg typically rely on sheer brute force, superior firepower and
> overwhelming numbers to succeed. There is not normally anything
> particularly clever about their tactics. Riker easily outsmarted them in
> "The Best of Both Worlds, Part Two".

Yeah, guess how I feel about that.. ;-)
The Delta Quadrant must be full of Pakled wannabees.

>>A ruthless, relentless menace like the 24th century Borg would not pack
>>up and leave to report back to the Delta Quad. They'd stay right there
>>on Earth and assimilate the hell out of it. All they'd have to do, is
>>make sure they keep a low profile and work as stealthily as possible for
>>as long as needed. Of course there'd be no Enterprise story there, so I
>>do understand *why* the writers went with their plot. But it just
>>doesn't add up.
>
> They're smart enough to know they'd lose. Assimilating Earth would take a
> large effort, not just a few drones.

They would *so* not lose. The Borg simply have to focus on keeping their
enemy in the dark for the longest possible time (covering tracks where
possible) and spread as widely as possible. Once the Borg are on your
planet, you're pretty much boned.

Joost

j. van der knaap

unread,
Mar 8, 2004, 11:12:34 AM3/8/04
to
Alex Peckover wrote:

Let me help you out a bit here: :-)

SPOILERS!!

<post your spoilers here>

Joost

Alex Peckover

unread,
Mar 8, 2004, 12:27:44 PM3/8/04
to

Doh, sorry, busy day.

"The Expanse" later in season two establishes that Earth has a seperate
military organisation called the Marine Assault Command. They provide a
number of MACO's (Marine Assault Command Officers) for Enterprise's mission.

Alex


Alex Peckover

unread,
Mar 8, 2004, 12:58:11 PM3/8/04
to
Mark Myers wrote:
> Alex Peckover wrote ...
> I'm talking about problems with established Trek continuity that
> require invoking the changed timeline hypothesis to explain them.

Everything I mention above has changed the timeline.

> In FC Picard et al worked very hard to ensure that the timeline was
> restored. It was implied that they succeeded. At least it was implied
> that the main events would happen again, and Enterprise went back
> 'home' without any implied 'problems' or changes.

But it *wasn't* restored. To restore it completely they would have to
prevent the Borg ship from ever going back in time, they didn't do that.
Their presence in the 20th century has changed the timeline.

>
> In this episode we have Star Fleet gaining explicit knowledge of some
> very dangerous aliens, yet we know that when Picard discovered the
> Borg they were not in SF's database. Therefore we have to invoke the
> changed timeline hypothesis in order to explain this. I understand
> your point (from the other post) that this is not the first time in
> ENT that this has happened, but that doesn't help any. This is
> though, a very simple and concrete example of the problem. We *know*
> SF should know nothing about the Borg, yet they do. Thus all the
> future of Trek is changed. So _Q Who?_ either didn't happen, or
> happened differently. I'm betting that it is precisely this that
> another poster was referring to when they described two fingers being
> put up to the long term fans. I completely understand that POV,
> though I don't agree with it.

To suggest that changing the timeline in a way that has been explained and
is perfectly clear is "sticking two fingers up at the long term fans" is
utterly ridiculous. Nobody says that Star Trek's IV or First Contact are
"sticking two fingers up the long term fans" even though they both involve
time travel.

The Temporal Cold War has been an integral part of Enterprise's long term
storyline. I don't see why it's so hard for people to just accept that,
watch the bloody show and shut the hell up with their constant, generally
incorrect, moaning.

>
> IMO, if B+B are planning to find a way to restore the original
> timeline at some point, possibly even a few seasons away, then this
> is all well and good. If they are not, it's *at best* an extremely
> poor creative decision. Time will tell.

First Contact "restored" the original timeline too. Except it didn't. It
left a bunch of frozen Borg on Earth in the 20th Century.

Alex


Derek

unread,
Mar 8, 2004, 5:55:16 PM3/8/04
to

"Alex Peckover" <al...@SPAMOFF.uklinux.net> wrote in message
news:c2i2ro$1t631u$1...@ID-32143.news.uni-berlin.de...

Also, I don't see why they would consider assimilating Earth to be their
greatest priority. Resistance is futile, they don't necessarily have to
hurry to do anything other than contact the rest of their race and inform
them that there is a planet here, a civilisation that may worthy of
assimilation, and possibly also data on future events. It's not something
that they could transmit over their homing signal, as the Borg are said to
only learn from direct assimilation, and that it couldn't be received via
their collective subconscious, as the distance to the Delta Q is too great.

Derek


kim

unread,
Mar 8, 2004, 9:52:19 PM3/8/04
to
Mark Myers wrote:-
[spoiler space]
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>Also known as a dirty great cop out. Having said that, I really quite
>enjoyed this episode. I just wish they hadn't gone down the altered
>timeline route AT ALL.

Ditto, with knobs on.

(kim)


Paul Hyett

unread,
Mar 9, 2004, 3:14:35 AM3/9/04
to
In uk.media.tv.sf.startrek on Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Derek wrote :
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
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>> >>>>
>> >>>>
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>> >>>
>> >>> Snip
>> >>>
>

>It's not something
>that they could transmit over their homing signal, as the Borg are said to
>only learn from direct assimilation, and that it couldn't be received via
>their collective subconscious, as the distance to the Delta Q is too great.

I'm left wondering how a 'collective' of a handful of drones, too
distant to contact the main Collective, would be able to display
knowledge beyond that known by the individuals assimilated. For example,
personal shields & warp drive upgrading.
--
Paul 'US Sitcom Fan' Hyett

j. van der knaap

unread,
Mar 9, 2004, 6:23:46 AM3/9/04
to
Paul Hyett wrote:

That knowledge may have been made available through the memory banks in
their hardware. If, at the time of the crash, this person needed to have
access to this information, it could have been copied to his local hardware.

Joost

j. van der knaap

unread,
Mar 9, 2004, 6:30:01 AM3/9/04
to
Derek wrote:

I get your point, but in the case of the Federation I think the Borg
realised earlier assimilation would require less resources than
assimilating them later. In the 24th century they already had to adopt
their standard MO by introducing Locutus and the premise of FC is that
the Borg are trying to prevent the Federation from being formed, which
would ease the Borg's efforts in the Alpha Quadrant somewhat.
Plus the heavy losses they suffered from Janeway's actions could all be
avoided if the Federation never existed.

Joost

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