'Krusty' Kramer -- Infamous
Keith Holder
reality for deluded filkers.
Members of a large group were discussing a mutual friend who had just
married a much younger woman.
One of the men exclaimed:
"Well, at least he's not like that sci-fi convention guy they arrested
in Gwinnett! Did you see that CREEP on tv? Man, you can just LOOK at him
and
KNOW he's guilty!"
The others all nodded their assent.
Alison Hopkins
Keith Holder wrote in message
<23471-3A...@storefull-153.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
===
Nice to know that the Klan is still alive and well. Or at lesat its
attitudes.
Ali
Dave Weingart
>Comments overheard at an Atlanta restaurant serve as a bracing dose of
>reality for deluded filkers.
Hmmm.
Not only a troll, but someone who has no clue whatsoever of what a filker
is.
--
73 de Dave Weingart KA2ESK This .signature deliberately
mailto:phyd...@liii.com left blank.
http://www.liii.com/~phydeaux
ICQ 57055207
Kip Williams
And they'd have said the same thing at a picture of almost any fan.
Look at that long hair. Look at that beard. Look at that t-shirt
he's wearing.
That's us they're talking about, there.
--
--Kip (Williams)
amusing the world at http://members.home.net/kipw/
Loren Joseph MacGregor
>One of the men exclaimed:
>"Well, at least he's not like that sci-fi convention guy they arrested
>in Gwinnett! Did you see that CREEP on tv? Man, you can just LOOK at him
>and KNOW he's guilty!"
>The others all nodded their assent.
Yeah, I got the same comments when I was younger, because I had long
hair. I musta been guilty of -some-thing!
Oh, and I was told to get my hair cut because I looked like a girl.
I guess the beard wasn't enough of a clue.
Boy, that Krichek on X-Files really looks like he's guilty of
something. Let's hang him.
-- LJM
Matthew Austern
Correction, if you please: that's us they're *supposedly* talking
about. I do not think we should take it for granted that this
conversation really took place as reported.
Kip Williams
I suppose this is one of those relatively rare social occasions when
one might as well assume one's narrator is lying. At that, my point
was that under the ground rules of this conversation, these weren't
people to cheer for.
Ed Dravecky III
> Comments overheard at an Atlanta restaurant serve as a bracing
> dose of reality for deluded filkers.
Stupid lies spread on a Usenet newsgroup serve as a numbing
dose of delusion from stinky sock puppets.
--
Ed Dravecky III
ed3 at panix dot com
Irv Koch
> Not only a troll, but someone who has no clue whatsoever of what a filker
> is.
True. As you know, the major filk in Atlanta have pro music gigs and/or
enough money to eat in resturants the troll's buddies could never
afford.
Irv Koch
> On Fri, 30 Mar 2001 15:15:30 -0500 (EST), Miste...@webtv.net (Keith
> Holder) wrote:
<snip idiot lies>
> >KNOW he's guilty!"
> >
> >The others all nodded their assent.
>
Fair's fair. Nancy and Joe are many notches above that troll, anyway
you want to rate things. (Three different people.)
Alison Hopkins
Steven H Silver
I'm sorry. We'll have to toss you out of fandom. Please leave your
dwarf license at the door.
--
Steven H Silver
http://www.sfsite.com/~silverag
Windycon XXVIII Vice-Chair
http://www.windycon.org
Joel Rosenberg
Georgia because the public will have prejudged him guilty just by looking at
him, and that, therefore, he can't be prosecuted, no matter how solid the
evidence may be against him?
Wow.
If so, that's unfortunate.
"Keith Holder" <Miste...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:23471-3A...@storefull-153.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
Kip Williams
Well... me too, lately, but I was making a point, fer cri yi! Just
play along, and wear this on your chin for a little while. See? I've
got one too.
mike weber
<irv...@pop.a001.sprintmail.com> typed
Hadn't thought about that.
--
=============================================================
"They put manure in his well and they made him talk to lawyers!"
-- Cat Ballou
mike weber -- kras...@mindspring.com
Book Reviews & More -- http://electronictiger.com
Anonymous
3630 Salem Drive
LITHONIA, GA 30038
Phone: (770) 593-3350
Don't start whining now RATFACE. You're not the only one who's getting
nailed and reported.
Anonymous
<23471-3A...@storefull-153.iap.bryant.webtv.net>:
>Comments overheard at an Atlanta restaurant serve as a bracing dose of
>reality for deluded filkers.
>
>Members of a large group were discussing a mutual friend who had just
>married a much younger woman.
>
>One of the men exclaimed:
>"Well, at least he's not like that sci-fi convention guy they arrested
>in Gwinnett! Did you see that CREEP on tv? Man, you can just LOOK at him
>and
>KNOW he's guilty!"
>
>The others all nodded their assent.
>
It's always nice to put a child molester in jail. I do hope that everyone
that supports Kramer and his actions in here are having their posts, along
with their e-mail addresses sent to the police department that arrested
Kramer. This is being done by myself. As well, if your real address is
found out, it will be posted in here as well as being sent to the authorities.
Call it invasion of privacy. Call it whatever you want, but it's being done
with or without everyones' consent. If you don't like it, tough shit.
Alison Hopkins
Anonymous wrote in message
<2a1c2c92759fcd3c...@mix2.hyperreal.pl>...
1. No actions have been proven in a court of law. Anyone, even you, is
innocent until proven guilty. Frankly, I've no idea if Ed K. is innocent or
guilty, and I am unlikely to be on the jury. But the more that you and those
like you carry on with this crap, the more I'd go for him being innocent.
2. I suspect that the police will be utterly overjoyed at you sending them
the addresses of all these folks. And, pray, where are all these posts of
"support", other than support for due process and the rule of law?
3. This is Usenet, boyo. There are people here, believe it or not, who come
from outside the state of Georgia, and don't support the Klan.
4. You are an utter and abject coward, hiding behind a screen name, which
gives you the credibility of a gnat.
Ali
Jo Walton
m...@mix2.hyperreal.pl "Anonymous" writes:
For what, pray? And to whom?
Well, you contemptible anonymous slimeball, you can put me right there with
Irv as being in favour of free speech and fair trials for everyone, even
people accused of doing something loathsome.
Jo Walton
5 Vivian Road
Sketty
Swansea
SA2 0UJ
Great Britain.
--
Jo J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
I kissed a kif at Kefk
Locus Recommended First Novel: *THE KING'S PEACE* out now from Tor.
Sample Chapters, Map, Poems, & stuff at http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk
Martin Wisse
<m...@mix2.hyperreal.pl> wrote:
>Don't start whining now RATFACE. You're not the only one who's getting
>nailed and reported.
But I see mr wanker here is too much of a coward to show his face in
public.
Martin Wisse
--
WWFD?
Play Mornington Crescent.
-Erik V. Olson & Loren MacGregor, in rasseff.
David Joseph Greenbaum
<some_Geor...@random.host.com> inscribed in fleeting electrons:
>It's always nice to put a child molester in jail. I do hope that everyone
>that supports Kramer and his actions in here are having their posts, along
>with their e-mail addresses sent to the police department that arrested
>Kramer. This is being done by myself. As well, if your real address is
>found out, it will be posted in here as well as being sent to the authorities.
>
>Call it invasion of privacy. Call it whatever you want, but it's being done
>with or without everyones' consent. If you don't like it, tough shit.
I have avoided getting involved in this thread, for lack of knowledge
about and caring for the situation. But the preceding paragraphs only
elicit in me one response.
Leck mich am arsch. Fuck off and die.
Dave G.
--
Schöner, grüner mond von Alabama, leuchte uns!
Denn wir haben heute hier
Unterm Hemde Geldpapier
Fur ein grosses Lachen deines grossen, dummen Munds. -- Bertolt Brecht
Kip Williams
>
> In a fit of infernal diabolism, Anonymous
> <some_Geor...@random.host.com> inscribed in fleeting electrons:
>
> >It's always nice to put a child molester in jail. I do hope that everyone
> >that supports Kramer and his actions in here are having their posts, along
> >with their e-mail addresses sent to the police department that arrested
> >Kramer. This is being done by myself. As well, if your real address is
> >found out, it will be posted in here as well as being sent to the authorities.
> >
> >Call it invasion of privacy. Call it whatever you want, but it's being done
> >with or without everyones' consent. If you don't like it, tough shit.
>
> I have avoided getting involved in this thread, for lack of knowledge
> about and caring for the situation. But the preceding paragraphs only
> elicit in me one response.
>
> Leck mich am arsch. Fuck off and die.
To which I'll add my wishes for this dickless "Anonymous" bung-burr:
Un-fuck you! Go fester elsewhere, you felching litle blob of vulture
mucus. Your ancestors were far too promiscuous. They should have
stayed in the swamp eating wild Baby Ruth bars.
Loren MacGregor
>
> Don't start whining now RATFACE. You're not the only one who's getting
> nailed and reported.
My! So honest and upright and honorable! And -brave-, to put your
own name on a post like that!
-- LJM
Loren MacGregor
>
> In article <2a871703ac3566cb...@mix2.hyperreal.pl>
> m...@mix2.hyperreal.pl "Anonymous" writes:
>
> > Irvin M. Koch
> > 3630 Salem Drive
> > LITHONIA, GA 30038
> > Phone: (770) 593-3350
> >
> >
> > Don't start whining now RATFACE. You're not the only one who's getting
> > nailed and reported.
>
> For what, pray? And to whom?
>
> Well, you contemptible anonymous slimeball, you can put me right there with
> Irv as being in favour of free speech and fair trials for everyone, even
> people accused of doing something loathsome.
>
> Jo Walton
> 5 Vivian Road
> Sketty
> Swansea
> SA2 0UJ
> Great Britain.
Good point.
Loren MacGregor
1484 Green Acres Road
Eugene, OR 97408
USA
Of course, my name is on every post I make, and my address is a
matter of public record.
-- LJM
Loren MacGregor
>
> It's always nice to put a child molester in jail. I do hope that everyone
> that supports Kramer and his actions in here are having their posts, along
> with their e-mail addresses sent to the police department that arrested
> Kramer. This is being done by myself. As well, if your real address is
> found out, it will be posted in here as well as being sent to the > authorities.
You don't seem to understand that many of us don't even know Ed
Kramer, but we know both common decency and the law of the land in
the United States. Ed Kramer is entitled to a jury of his peers.
-Everyone- has a right to a fair hearing. That's the basic and
fundamental right we're discussing here.
You don't do yourself any favors to posting anonymously; you only
identify yourself as a coward who is afraid to put his or her own
name on public statements you make.
> Call it invasion of privacy. Call it whatever you want, but it's being done
> with or without everyones' consent. If you don't like it, tough shit.
And you're doing it in such a way that you have made it difficult to
call you to account for your actions. Once again, that's the act of
a coward.
You're able to find our addresses because we -sign- what we rite.
That level of personal honesty apparently escapes you.
-- LJM
Joel Rosenberg
"Anonymous" <m...@mix2.hyperreal.pl> wrote in message
news:2a1c2c92759fcd3c...@mix2.hyperreal.pl...
Gee, that's frightening. The notion of the police hearing the folks out
here have a consensus that Ed Kramer should get a fair trial, assuming that
there's enough evidence to go to trial, should frighten anybody with two
neurons to click together.
Those of us with a more normal number, though, probably aren't going to
worry.
Kevin J. Maroney
>Well, you contemptible anonymous slimeball, you can put me right there with
While I cannot help but admire the "I am Spartacus" nature of these
posts, I think it's also important to remind people that trolls thrive
on attention and it's best to starve them.
Kevin J. Maroney
206 Valentine Street
Yonkers, NY 10704-1814
--
Kevin Maroney | Unplugged Games | kmar...@ungames.com
If they keep you asking the wrong questions, they don't have
to worry about the answers. --Thomas Pynchon
D. Potter
>>"> Don't start whining now RATFACE. You're not the only one who's getting
> nailed and reported.
For what, pray? And to whom?
Well, you contemptible anonymous slimeball, you can put me right there with
Irv as being in favour of free speech and fair trials for everyone, even
people accused of doing something loathsome.
Jo Walton
[address snipped]
Great Britain."<<
Moi aussi.
I'm not putting my actual address on Usenet, but I live in Oakland, California.
Was "Sentence first, trial afterward!" the Red Queen or the White Queen?
--
D. Potter
who is bored with these attempts to mount an electronic lynch mob and proud of
defenders of free speech and fair trials.
Kevin J. Maroney
>Was "Sentence first, trial afterward!" the Red Queen or the White Queen?
No. :-)
It was the Queen of Hearts, and she said "Sentence first--verdict
afterwards."
--
Kevin Maroney | kmar...@ungames.com
Kitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction
<http://www.nyrsf.com>
Loren MacGregor
I have to follow my own post to say that this is where people who
consistently use handles on usenet -- or who make occasional,
facetious use of such handles, get unfairly tarred with the "not
using your real name" meme. This was and is not my intention.
There is (usually) an obvious and discernible difference between
people who are choosing a name to represent them on usenet (and
elsewhere) -- where that name -is- the person, in the sense that the
map is the territory -- and someone who is attempting to defraud,
mislead or, more venally, to escape through the coward's anonymous
note from the possibility of being held accountable for one's words.
(I will take the opportunity to express some amusement that one of
the major reasons (I don't know that it is the primary reason)
people use anonymizers on usenet is to post pornographic stories and
images which (theoretically) cannot be traced back to them. And,
reading several pages on anonymizer services, it is fascinating to
see how many of them add as one of the advantages that you can keep
your coworkers and managers from knowing where you surf on line. It
certainly suggests that the sites at least believe that their
potential clients -will- be doing something which would get them in
trouble if others knew about it.)
-- LJM
Marcus L. Rowland
Anonymous <m...@mix2.hyperreal.pl> writes
>
>Don't start whining now RATFACE. You're not the only one who's getting
>nailed and reported.
Would the date of this post perhaps be significant? I can't believe that
even a total dickhead would believe that posting addresses will frighten
anyone - they're too readily found on web sites etc. (which is where
you'll find mine if you are serious about this, Mr. Anonymous) - but as
a bit of April 1st trolling it has worked quite well.
Of course, he could just be an idiot.
--
Marcus L. Rowland
Forgotten Futures - The Scientific Romance Role Playing Game
http://www.ffutures.demon.co.uk/ http://www.forgottenfutures.com/
"We are all victims of this slime. They... ...fill our mailboxes with gibberish
that would get them indicted if people had time to press charges"
[Hunter S. Thompson predicts junk e-mail, 1985 (from Generation of Swine)]
Avedon Carol
MacGregor <lmac...@garcia.efn.org> wrote:
>In rec.arts.sf.fandom, Keith Holder <Miste...@webtv.net> wrote:
>
>>One of the men exclaimed:
>>"Well, at least he's not like that sci-fi convention guy they arrested
>>in Gwinnett! Did you see that CREEP on tv? Man, you can just LOOK at him
>>and KNOW he's guilty!"
>
>>The others all nodded their assent.
>
>Yeah, I got the same comments when I was younger, because I had long
>hair. I musta been guilty of -some-thing!
But Loren, you _were_!
>Oh, and I was told to get my hair cut because I looked like a girl.
>I guess the beard wasn't enough of a clue.
Some people need _a lot_ of clues.
>Boy, that Krichek on X-Files really looks like he's guilty of
>something. Let's hang him.
Hey, he _is_ guilty!
Avedon Carol
Anonymous <m...@mix2.hyperreal.pl> wrote:
>It's always nice to put a child molester in jail.
Not before you have evidence, no.
>I do hope that everyone
>that supports Kramer and his actions in here are having their posts, along
>with their e-mail addresses sent to the police department that arrested
>Kramer. This is being done by myself. As well, if your real address is
>found out, it will be posted in here as well as being sent to the authorities.
Most people here already know each other's real addresses. Most of
'em know mine. The rest can always write to me at the address that's
posted on our web site.
>Call it invasion of privacy. Call it whatever you want, but it's being done
>with or without everyones' consent. If you don't like it, tough shit.
I call it assholization on your part. Free speech, of course. If you
want to look like a jackass in public, it's your dime.
--
A. Carol Feminists Against Censorship
ave...@cix.co.uk http://www.fiawol.demon.co.uk/FAC/
"Homophobia isn't there to keep homosexuals in line. It's
there to keep everyone else in line." - Joanna Russ
Cally Soukup
> Irvin M. Koch
[address elided]
> Don't start whining now RATFACE. You're not the only one who's getting
> nailed and reported.
Reported for exactly what, pray? Standing up for the due process of
law? Refusing to commit libel and slander?
Get this through your thick skull: we DON'T KNOW if Kramer is guilty.
Hell, most of us (including me) had never heard of the man before Joe
and Nancy and a host of fake, snivelling screen names came in here
slinging mud with both hands. There has been NO trial. And we refuse
to behave as if the simple accusation of criminal activity is proof of
guilt. Especially when such accusations come from anonymous stalkers
like you.
--
"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend
to the death your right to say it." -- Beatrice Hall
Cally Soukup sou...@pobox.com
Kevin J. Maroney
>Would the date of this post perhaps be significant? I can't believe that
>even a total dickhead would believe that posting addresses will frighten
>anyone - they're too readily found on web sites etc. (which is where
>you'll find mine if you are serious about this, Mr. Anonymous) - but as
>a bit of April 1st trolling it has worked quite well.
>
>Of course, he could just be an idiot.
I don't think there's any doubt of that. Phenomenology, with the sails
furled.
D. Potter
>>"It was the Queen of Hearts, and she said "Sentence first--verdict
afterwards.""<<
Ah. Thanks.
I have what seems to be an alternate reality shuttle of a Complete Lewis
Carroll somewhere in the apartment. It disappeared, and for a long time I
thought it had fallen out a window, but it reappeared briefly in the '80's,
long enough for me to see it, open it, leaf through it, and replace it on the
shelf--where it wasn't the next time I needed to consult it.
I hope it is gladdening other households, particularly in realities where I
have money.
;^)
--
D. Potter
Baseball Season, at *last*! (If you didn't give us deadlines, we wouldn't
*have* to panic!)
Vlatko Juric-Kokic
<churn...@home.com> wrote:
>And you're doing it in such a way that you have made it difficult to
>call you to account for your actions.
Loren, you gotta be kidding. :-) Difficult? Lessee ...
Sent through nym.alias.net (notified). Sender address: a cyber cafe in
Krakow, Poland (notified), relay: a Polish member of the Hyperreal Web
ring (notified), which in turn can lose the link (awfully slow) if
somebody complains to the Polish Telecom, so I didn't do that.
And all that without even trying.
>Once again, that's the act of a coward.
No, it's the act of a reprehensible piece of scum floating on the
sewer water.
vlatko
--
_Neither Fish Nor Fowl_
http://www.webart.hr/nrnm/eng/index.htm
vlatko.ju...@zg.hinet.hr
Irv Koch
How's things in Canada, "Anon?"
Right on, my address and phone have been on tens of thousands of flyers
and stuff for conventions, clubs, fanzines, RPGs/LARPS, Ghu (and Roscoe)
knows what else, and even professional book sales.
Send me money. I've been reported to credit agencies as good for rather
high numbers.
Right now I can take $25 for Attending, or $10 Supporting, for GA Filk
2002. I've also got books for sale, not to mention Worldcon bid stuff.
The above MIGHT be the address for the 2003 Mythcon.
Irv Koch
> In article <2a871703ac3566cb...@mix2.hyperreal.pl>
> m...@mix2.hyperreal.pl "Anonymous" writes:
> 5 Vivian Road
> I kissed a kif at Kefk
> Locus Recommended First Novel: *THE KING'S PEACE* out now from Tor.
> Sample Chapters, Map, Poems, & stuff at http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk
Very good. It's on the shelves at SF & Mystery Book Shop Ltd.,
hereabouts, and a few of them, at least, have sold <G>. I collect
addresses of pro's. Never can tell when someone will want to invite
someone as Guest at a con, or maybe an autographing. <G>
Irv Koch
> Kevin J. Maroney
> 206 Valentine Street
<snip>
That reminds me, since that's someone else's address, too, did a SFPA
mailing show up in the mail, there, last week?
Douglas Berry
>It's always nice to put a child molester in jail. I do hope that everyone
>that supports Kramer and his actions in here are having their posts, along
>with their e-mail addresses sent to the police department that arrested
>Kramer. This is being done by myself. As well, if your real address is
>found out, it will be posted in here as well as being sent to the
>authorities.
Douglas E. Berry
2062 19th Avenue, #3
San Francisco, Ca. 94116.
The email addy attached to this message is correct.
Do your worst you anomymous coward.
Ed Kramer remains innocent until proven guilty beyond any resonable
doubt in a court of law.
--
Douglas E. Berry grid...@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
Warren Lapine & Angela Kessler
m...@mix2.hyperreal.pl says...
reporting people for believing in the First Amendment and the right to a
fair trial? Do get a life. If Kramer molested children, I don't think
anyone here has ever said they support that. They support his rights
because if they don't his rights the real effect of that is that no one
will support their rights. To protect the rights of all we must protect
the rights of one. If he's guilty he should fry. I, for one, don't
think the penalties for pediafilia are strong enough. It's one of the
few offenses that I wouldn't argue against the death penalty on. Do you
want to report that to the police. They must think you're a nut.
Warren Lapine
--
DNA Publications, Inc. - Publishers of Genre Magazines
SF Chronicle * Absolute Magnitude * Weird Tales * Dreams of Decadence *
Aboriginal * Fantastic Stories * Mythic Delirium
Visit our website: http://www.dnapublications.com/
Subscribe to our FREE e-mail newsletter:
http://www.egroups.com/subscribe/dnapublications
Avram Grumer
<m...@mix2.hyperreal.pl> wrote:
> It's always nice to put a child molester in jail. I do hope that everyone
> that supports Kramer and his actions in here are having their posts, along
> with their e-mail addresses sent to the police department that arrested
> Kramer. This is being done by myself. As well, if your real address is
> found out, it will be posted in here as well as being sent to the authorities.
Don't forget mine:
Avram Grumer
292 Lincoln Place, Apt. 2-D
Brooklyn, NY 11238
--
Avram Grumer | av...@grumer.org | http://www.PigsAndFishes.org
"Soon everyone will be playing with a wireless device in their pocket."
-- from Unplugged Games business plan
Rachel Brown
>
> > Irvin M. Koch
> > 3630 Salem Drive
> > LITHONIA, GA 30038
> > Phone: (770) 593-3350
> >
> > Don't start whining now RATFACE. You're not the only one who's getting
> > nailed and reported.
I get it. Anonymous, Joe Christ, Keith Holder, and their multifarious sock
puppets are actually secret supporters of Ed Kramer and his right to a fair
trial. They're doing all this deranged posting so that even people who
once believed that Kramer was guilty will become convinced that the entire
thing is a frame job masterminded by his psychotically vindictive enemies.
The enemy of your enemy is your friend. It all makes sense now.
Rachel
She was a vixen when she went to school,
And though she be but little, she is fierce
William Shakespeare, "A Midsummer Night's Dream"
Alter S. Reiss
news:avram-01040...@manhattan.crossover.com...
> In article <2a1c2c92759fcd3c...@mix2.hyperreal.pl>, Anonymous
> <m...@mix2.hyperreal.pl> wrote:
>
> > It's always nice to put a child molester in jail. I do hope that
everyone
> > that supports Kramer and his actions in here are having their posts,
along
> > with their e-mail addresses sent to the police department that arrested
> > Kramer. This is being done by myself. As well, if your real address is
> > found out, it will be posted in here as well as being sent to the
authorities.
>
> Don't forget mine:
>
> Avram Grumer
> 292 Lincoln Place, Apt. 2-D
> Brooklyn, NY 11238
Or mine:
Alter S. Reiss
24 Bennett Ave, Apt 25a
New York, NY 10033
Hopefully, the police department that arrested Kramer will do something
about all these dangerous radicals who think that the order ought be trial
first, conviction second.
--
Alter S. Reiss, April 2001
"You want red or white?"
"I dunno. . . .what color is
tequila?"
Anonymous
>You're reporting people for believing in the First Amendment and the
>right to a fair trial? Do get a life. If Kramer molested children, I
>don't think anyone here has ever said they support that.
Wrong! Many have supported Kramer and his actions. And there are those in
here that hope Kramer beats the rap, guilty or not. In effect, they are
supporting molestation of children. And you all know who you are.
> They support
>his rights because if they don't his rights the real effect of that is
>that no one will support their rights. To protect the rights of all we
>must protect the rights of one.
I have no problem with that. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty. I'm
targeting only those who support Kramers' passions.
> If he's guilty he should fry. I, for
>one, don't think the penalties for pediafilia are strong enough.
As well as every other child molester that uses Fancon as a front to lure
children.
> It's
>one of the few offenses that I wouldn't argue against the death penalty
>on. Do you want to report that to the police. They must think you're a
>nut.
Dead wrong. They want anything that has to do with the activities of Kramer
sent as possible evidence. As well, more child molesters might be drawn out
of the woodwork as a result of my actions. Do you not agree that every
effort should be made to put child molesters away?
Warren Lapine
Joel Rosenberg
> >Come on. I don't even like Ed Kramer, but this is getting stupid.
> >You're reporting people for believing in the First Amendment and the
> >right to a fair trial? Do get a life. If Kramer molested children, I
> >don't think anyone here has ever said they support that.
>
> Wrong! Many have supported Kramer and his actions. And there are those in
> here that hope Kramer beats the rap, guilty or not. In effect, they are
> supporting molestation of children. And you all know who you are.
I think you need the change the aluminum foil on the colander you're wearing
on your head; the z-rays seem to be getting through.
Anonymous
>
>Avram Grumer
>292 Lincoln Place, Apt. 2-D
>Brooklyn, NY 11238
Trust us. We won't.
292 Lincoln Place
BROOKLYN, NY 11238
Phone: (718) 857-7674
Corwin Brust
Looks like he already did, to me.
-Corwin
mike weber
typed
>In article <2a871703ac3566cb...@mix2.hyperreal.pl>
> m...@mix2.hyperreal.pl "Anonymous" writes:
>
>> Irvin M. Koch
>> 3630 Salem Drive
>> LITHONIA, GA 30038
>> Phone: (770) 593-3350
>>
>>
>> Don't start whining now RATFACE. You're not the only one who's getting
>> nailed and reported.
>
>For what, pray? And to whom?
For knowing Ed Kramer and suggesting he might ought to get a fair
trial.
Which he *isn't* going to, i'm afraid, but that's fairly routine in
cases of people charged with Doing Nasty Things To Children.
>
>Well, you contemptible anonymous slimeball, you can put me right there with
>Irv as being in favour of free speech and fair trials for everyone, even
>people accused of doing something loathsome.
>
>Jo Walton
>5 Vivian Road
>Sketty
>Swansea
>SA2 0UJ
>Great Britain.
>
Ditto,
mike weber
162 Spring Place
Dawsonville GA
--
=============================================================
"They put manure in his well and they made him talk to lawyers!"
-- Cat Ballou
mike weber -- kras...@mindspring.com
Book Reviews & More -- http://electronictiger.com
mike weber
<m...@mix2.hyperreal.pl> typed
>Irvin M. Koch
>3630 Salem Drive
>LITHONIA, GA 30038
>Phone: (770) 593-3350
>
>
>Don't start whining now RATFACE. You're not the only one who's getting
>nailed and reported.
>
Go for it, kid.
You'll find my address a couple messages downthread.
Keith F. Lynch
I know for a FACT that every one of you is GUILTY of having sex with
former CHILDREN. Or at least fantasizing about it. In some cases,
even with the former children OF former children! Have you no shame?
Judging by the hit counts on various webs sites, many of you are
shameless PDF-philes, with an unnatural attraction for proprietary
Adobe formats. Others are guilty of downloading AScii files, for
your personal gratification.
I'm forwarding the complete archives of this newsgroup to the FBI
and Interpol. And just to be safe, all the other newsgroups, too.
And every fanzine ever printed.
I have cleverly figured out the secret address of your so-called
Worldcon:
The Pennsylvania Convention Center &
Philadelphia Marriott Hotel
Philadelphia, PA
I have written to president Bush and the Secretary General of the
United Nations and told them of your planned meeting there, so they
can lock up all you notorious bearded filkers once and for all and
put an end to this shameless heterotextual behavior.
--
Keith F. Lynch - k...@keithlynch.net - http://keithlynch.net/
I always welcome replies to my e-mail, postings, and web pages, but
unsolicited bulk e-mail sent to thousands of randomly collected
addresses is not acceptable, and I do complain to the spammer's ISP.
Corwin Brust
Oh, almost forgot.
Corwin Brust
1500 LaSalle Ave. #625
Minneapolis, MN 55403
-Corwin
Heather Anne Nicoll
> Trust us. We won't.
If you get the Comm-av address for me, you're a year out of date.
- Darkhawk, muttering, "Lynn, Lynn. . ."
--
Heather Nicoll - Darkhawk - http://aelfhame.net/~darkhawk/
Sometimes I pray for silence; sometimes I pray for soul. . . .
- Meat Loaf, "I'd Do Anything For Love"
Avram Grumer
<m...@mix2.hyperreal.pl> wrote:
That's pretty funny. Whatever source you're using knows my phone number
(as does anyone with a Brooklyn phone book -- I make no secret of it), but
not my apartment number.
BTW, do you think this is going to frighten me in any way? That I'm going
to sit up nights worrying that some cop halfway across the country has my
name in a list he's been sent by some anonymous jackass because I support
the right to a fair trial even for people who've been accused of heinous
crimes?
Zack Weinberg
>
>You have to care about the 'fair trial' part; you have to care about
>the 'due process of law' part, and you have to care about these things
>*more* than you care about putting child molestors away.
If you don't mind, I'm going to sigquote this.
zw
not that I *use* sigquotes much, but still
Marilee J. Layman
<m...@mix2.hyperreal.pl> wrote:
>It's always nice to put a child molester in jail. I do hope that everyone
>that supports Kramer and his actions in here are having their posts, along
>with their e-mail addresses sent to the police department that arrested
>Kramer. This is being done by myself. As well, if your real address is
>found out, it will be posted in here as well as being sent to the authorities.
If you're doing that, why do you hope it will be done? What makes you
think we support Kramer? We support justice, which may show he's
innocent, may show he's guilty. As to my real address, well, any
half-wit could find it on the net. I'm not afraid to sign my posts.
--
Marilee J. Layman
Bali Sterling Beads at Wholesale
http://www.basicbali.com
Marilee J. Layman
<m...@mix2.hyperreal.pl> wrote:
>Wrong! Many have supported Kramer and his actions. And there are those in
>here that hope Kramer beats the rap, guilty or not. In effect, they are
>supporting molestation of children. And you all know who you are.
Post cites.
> Warren Lapine
Uh huh, you're afraid to post your own name, so you post Warren's.
Irv Koch
> I get it. Anonymous, Joe Christ, Keith Holder, and their multifarious sock
> puppets are actually secret supporters of Ed Kramer and his right to a fair
FYI. There are TWO groups out there.
Joe Christ and Nancy Collins, while their tactics are debatable to say
the least, have mostly confined themselves to the gathering and
distribution of data. They're both sf&f/horror professionals. I'm not
sure who else, if anyone, is in that faction. You can argue with them.
Keith Holder and Mr Anon, are the ones who hate sf fans entirely and
can't tell a filk from an obscenity. At times they may have brought in
reinforcements from the troll community. These critters need to be
starved, as far as any feedback or notice of their existance is
concerned, and/or "drowned out" with on topic posts.
Joel Rosenberg
"Marilee J. Layman" <mjla...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:40dfctk8pr7pbf0n6...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 1 Apr 2001 13:06:12 +0200 (CEST), Anonymous
> <m...@mix2.hyperreal.pl> wrote:
>
> >It's always nice to put a child molester in jail. I do hope that everyone
> >that supports Kramer and his actions in here are having their posts,
along
> >with their e-mail addresses sent to the police department that arrested
> >Kramer. This is being done by myself. As well, if your real address is
> >found out, it will be posted in here as well as being sent to the
authorities.
>
> If you're doing that, why do you hope it will be done? What makes you
> think we support Kramer? We support justice, which may show he's
> innocent, may show he's guilty.
The US justice system is, in theory and almost certainly in practice, not
going to show that he's innocent, even if he is. "Not guilty" really means
"not proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt", and that's theoretically the
best a jury can do for somebody they've concluded really, truly absolutely
didn't do what they're accused of, and people will not necessarily conclude
from that that the guy didn't do it, and many will, in many cases, conclude
that hey, he did it, but he got off.
And, in some cases, they may even be right. OJ Simpson, for example, is
"not guilty" of the murder of the two people he killed, but even absent the
civil trial, there are few folks who have looked at the evidence who aren't
damn sure that he killed his ex-wife and Ron Goldman.
As to Ed Kramer, I can't see how it possibly hurts for anybody not involved
in the prosecution end of criminal justice system in his locale to withhold
judgment. The guy's under house arrest, after all, and has a monitor bolted
onto him, and is being closely watched.
The only advantage I can possibly see from this sort of lynch mob atmosphere
is to a (hypothetically) guilty Ed Kramer -- if his lawyers can persuade the
judge/appeals court that he can't get a fair trial, then he walks.
Well, that's not quite true. If some person or people has some sort of
grudge against an innocent Ed Kramer, and knows that when the truth will
out, he'll be as exonerated as somebody in his position can be, it would be
in that person or person's interest to muddy his name as much as possible,
so he'll be released on the grounds that he can't be fairly tried, rather
than on the grounds that he couldn't, despite the State's best efforts, be
proven guilty.
Loren MacGregor
I just finished it last night, at sometime around midnight, having
found myself completely incapable of stopping once I'd reached a
certain point.
It is clearly a well-written history of a place other. I found
myself captivated.
-- LJM
Loren MacGregor
>
> On Sun, 01 Apr 2001 15:41:13 GMT, Loren MacGregor
> <churn...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >And you're doing it in such a way that you have made it difficult to
> >call you to account for your actions.
>
> Loren, you gotta be kidding. :-)
I dithered around that phrasing, originally haven chosen, "you hope
to have made it difficult..." In the rewrite, apparently the "hope
to" got lost. That'll teach me to rewrite.
> Difficult? Lessee ...
>
> Sent through nym.alias.net (notified). Sender address: a cyber cafe in
> Krakow, Poland (notified), relay: a Polish member of the Hyperreal Web
> ring (notified), which in turn can lose the link (awfully slow) if
> somebody complains to the Polish Telecom, so I didn't do that.
>
> And all that without even trying.
I meant to add a little bit about the anonymizers, too, but felt
that I'd already gone on too long.
>
> >Once again, that's the act of a coward.
>
> No, it's the act of a reprehensible piece of scum floating on the
> sewer water.
Well, there is that.
-- LJM
D. Potter
>>"I have written to president Bush and the Secretary General of the
United Nations and told them of your planned meeting there, so they
can lock up all you notorious bearded filkers once and for all and
put an end to this shameless heterotextual behavior."<<
Aw, we're mostly hetero doxies...
(Not to disparage any other doxies running around--your doxy is OK.)
--
D. Potter
Baseball Season, at *last*! (If you didn't give us deadlines, we wouldn't
*have* to panic!)
mike weber
<irv...@pop.a001.sprintmail.com> typed
Due to confusion among the membership.deadline was postponed till the
last Thursday (march 30) rather than the fourth thursday, so they
prolly didn't hit the mail till Saturday last...
Doug Faunt N6TQS +1-510-655-8604
> On Sun, 1 Apr 2001 23:56:09 +0200 (CEST), Anonymous
> <m...@mix2.hyperreal.pl> scripsit:
> >Dead wrong. They want anything that has to do with the activities of
> >Kramer sent as possible evidence. As well, more child molesters might
> >be drawn out of the woodwork as a result of my actions. Do you not
> >agree that every effort should be made to put child molesters away?
>
> Of course not.
>
> You have to care about the 'fair trial' part; you have to care about
> the 'due process of law' part, and you have to care about these things
> *more* than you care about putting child molestors away.
>
And I'll go further: Not every case of sex with a 14 year old boy is
"child molestation".
73, doug
To make it easy for you:
6405 Regent St, Oakland CA 94618-1313, 510-655-8604
Anonymous
>"child molestation".
>73, doug
>To make it easy for you:
>6405 Regent St, Oakland CA 94618-1313, 510-655-8604
Someone was asking for posts defending child molestion? Meet Doug, a child
molester from way back. See how he hates the idea of a 14 year old boy
being groped and raped by Kramer?
Irestmycaseyourhonor.
Archived and forwarded to DPD.
Marilee J. Layman
wrote:
>BTW, do you think this is going to frighten me in any way? That I'm going
>to sit up nights worrying that some cop halfway across the country has my
>name in a list he's been sent by some anonymous jackass because I support
>the right to a fair trial even for people who've been accused of heinous
>crimes?
Avram, Georgia is south, not west.
Anonymous
>think we support Kramer? We support justice, which may show he's
>half-wit could find it on the net. I'm not afraid to sign my posts.
>
You are one stupid DUMB CUNT, aren't you. Kramers' lawyer works tooth and
nail to get the fat bastard bail, and as soon as he gets out, he tries to
grab another teen boy, and has his bail revoked.
OF COURSE HE'S INNOCENT! LOL!
I for one, can't wait until he's convicted. I hope the general population
cuts his nuts off with a rusty soup can.
Anonymous
>> sewer water.
>
>Well, there is that.
>
>-- LJM
Trolling is scummy, but molesting young boys is okay. Uh huh, we see where
your priorities lie, ya' skanked-out old cunt.
Keith Thompson
[...]
> The US justice system is, in theory and almost certainly in practice, not
> going to show that he's innocent, even if he is. "Not guilty" really means
> "not proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt", and that's theoretically the
> best a jury can do for somebody they've concluded really, truly absolutely
> didn't do what they're accused of, and people will not necessarily conclude
> from that that the guy didn't do it, and many will, in many cases, conclude
> that hey, he did it, but he got off.
Actually, I think there are some rare cases in which a defendant in a
criminal case has been found innocent, rather than merely "not
guilty". It's rare because it's generally not necessary (there's no
real legal distinction between the "innocent" and "not guilty"), but
it's done in some cases where the defendant was clearly improperly
prosecuted.
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) k...@cts.com <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://www.sdsc.edu/~kst>
Cxiuj via bazo apartenas ni.
Keith Thompson
[the usual nonsense]
>
>
> Warren Lapine
It seems odd to see what looks like a signature at the bottom of an
anonymous post. I believe I've seen Warren Lapine post here under his
own name. Anonymous, are you claiming to be Warren Lapine? Warren
Lapine, are you this anonymous poster?
(Warren, please don't take offense at this question; I ask out of
ignorance.)
Warren Lapine & Angela Kessler
> Anonymous <m...@mix2.hyperreal.pl> writes:
> [the usual nonsense]
> >
> >
> > Warren Lapine
>
> It seems odd to see what looks like a signature at the bottom of an
> anonymous post. I believe I've seen Warren Lapine post here under his
> own name. Anonymous, are you claiming to be Warren Lapine? Warren
> Lapine, are you this anonymous poster?
>
> (Warren, please don't take offense at this question; I ask out of
> ignorance.)
>
>
my name at the bottom. I don't know if he was being sloppy or trying to
create this kind of confusion.
Warren
--
DNA Publications, Inc. - Publishers of Genre Magazines
SF Chronicle * Absolute Magnitude * Weird Tales * Dreams of Decadence *
Aboriginal * Fantastic Stories * Mythic Delirium
Visit our website: http://www.dnapublications.com/
Subscribe to our FREE e-mail newsletter:
http://www.egroups.com/subscribe/dnapublications
David Dyer-Bennet
> Miste...@webtv.net (Keith Holder) wrote in
> <23471-3A...@storefull-153.iap.bryant.webtv.net>:
>
> >Comments overheard at an Atlanta restaurant serve as a bracing dose of
> >reality for deluded filkers.
> >
> >Members of a large group were discussing a mutual friend who had just
> >married a much younger woman.
> >
> >One of the men exclaimed:
> >"Well, at least he's not like that sci-fi convention guy they arrested
> >in Gwinnett! Did you see that CREEP on tv? Man, you can just LOOK at him
> >and
> >KNOW he's guilty!"
> >
> >The others all nodded their assent.
> >
> It's always nice to put a child molester in jail. I do hope that everyone
> that supports Kramer and his actions in here are having their posts, along
> with their e-mail addresses sent to the police department that arrested
> Kramer. This is being done by myself. As well, if your real address is
> found out, it will be posted in here as well as being sent to the authorities.
We're all terrified.
I don't support Ed Kramer (only met him a couple of times) or his
actions (don't know what they have been). I *do* support the legal
system outlined in the constitution. The police seem to have had
cause to arrest Ed. If he's brought to trial, I hope the truth is
determined. Of course I won't know; as I say, I don't know Ed, I
don't know the truth of these accusations.
But by all means continue harassing people and wasting the police
department's time; I hope you do it enough that they decide to shut you
down.
David Dyer-Bennet
3721 Blaisdell Ave. S.
Minneapolis, MN 55409
As can be trivially found out from directory assistance, using my name
as given on this message.
By the way, what are *you* so afraid of?
> Call it invasion of privacy. Call it whatever you want, but it's being done
> with or without everyones' consent. If you don't like it, tough shit.
I believe harassment is the appropriate technical term for what you're
doing.
--
David Dyer-Bennet / Welcome to the future! / dd...@dd-b.net
SF: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ Minicon: http://www.mnstf.org/minicon/
Photos: http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/
Loren MacGregor
>
> Anonymous <m...@mix2.hyperreal.pl> writes:
> [the usual nonsense]
> >
> >
> > Warren Lapine
>
> It seems odd to see what looks like a signature at the bottom of an
> anonymous post. I believe I've seen Warren Lapine post here under his
> own name. Anonymous, are you claiming to be Warren Lapine? Warren
> Lapine, are you this anonymous poster?
>
> (Warren, please don't take offense at this question; I ask out of
> ignorance.)
I asked the same question -- but then saw Warren's post, which
followed Mr-or-Ms-Anonymous' post on my spool. Anonymous was either
sloppy or malicious. You choose.
-- LJM
Loren MacGregor
Still has to do with the standard of law under which -everyone- in
the U.S. is to be held -- innocent until proven guilty in a court of
law. I will repeat as often as you like that the person in question
hasn't been tried in a court of law yet, and in that situation he --
like you -- is entitled to a presumption of innocence. This is not
a defense of -anyone- accused of -any- crime; this is a factual
statement of the law of the U.S., and similar if not always
identical protections are part of law elsewhere.
I don't care -who- is doing the yelling; if the yelling is an
attempt to sidestep due process, it is -wrong-. This has no bearing
on the guilt or innocence of any individual in any case; this has to
do with recognizing, maintaining and preserving liberty.
-- LJM
Loren Joseph MacGregor
> >73, doug
>Irestmycaseyourhonor.
Boy, have -you- got a wrong number, Mr-I'm-so-brave-I-post-anonymously.
-- LJM
John Richards
>
> In article <2a871703ac3566cb...@mix2.hyperreal.pl>
> m...@mix2.hyperreal.pl "Anonymous" writes:
>
> > 3630 Salem Drive
> > LITHONIA, GA 30038
> > Phone: (770) 593-3350
> >
> >
> > Don't start whining now RATFACE. You're not the only one who's getting
> > nailed and reported.
>
> For what, pray? And to whom?
>
> Well, you contemptible anonymous slimeball, you can put me right there with
> Irv as being in favour of free speech and fair trials for everyone, even
> people accused of doing something loathsome.
>
> Jo Walton
> 5 Vivian Road
> Swansea
> SA2 0UJ
> Great Britain.
>
Add to the list
John FW Richards
11 Cardiff Road
North End
Portsmouth
PO2 8BH
Great Britain
You can find my phone number from www.ukphone.com if you really want to.
--
JFW Richards South Hants Science Fiction Group
Portsmouth, Hants 2nd and 4th Tuesdays
England. UK. The Magpie, Fratton Road, Portsmouth
John Richards
>
> In article <2a871703ac3566cb...@mix2.hyperreal.pl>,
> Anonymous <m...@mix2.hyperreal.pl> writes
> >
> >Don't start whining now RATFACE. You're not the only one who's getting
> >nailed and reported.
>
> even a total dickhead would believe that posting addresses will frighten
> anyone - they're too readily found on web sites etc. (which is where
> you'll find mine if you are serious about this, Mr. Anonymous) - but as
> a bit of April 1st trolling it has worked quite well.
>
> Of course, he could just be an idiot.
I think that the last is a given however someone has been pulling the
same trick on alt.fandom.cons under the impression that it would cause
panic in the streets.
(That's 11 Cardiff Road, North End, Portsmouth P02 8BH by the way).
Anonymous
>
>I think that the last is a given however someone has been pulling the
>same trick on alt.fandom.cons under the impression that it would cause
>panic in the streets.
Then we can reasonably assume you support the rape of teen boys? It's very
simple. You're either for it, or against it. We know where you stand .
It'll be interesting to see all of the back-pedaling around here when ped
boy gets convicted. That's when i take it to real life.
>
Anonymous
>>"child molestation".
>
>
It is in Kramers' case. And that's the bottom line.
Anonymous
>department's time; I hope you do it enough that they decide to shut you
>down.
>
>David Dyer-Bennet
>3721 Blaisdell Ave. S.
>Minneapolis, MN 55409
Actually, they invite any information that condones illegal activites.
They'll shut you down before I ever take the plunge. Trust me on that. In
fact, you might as well know. This entire NG is being monitored. Don't say
I didn't warn you ped supporters.
John Richards
wet.
By the way you forgot to attribute the quote or print my address. Oh
yeah I did that didn't I.
Lis Carey
<1er77ui.1c41lzn1v2pih7N%dark...@mailandnews.com>:
>Anonymous <m...@mix2.hyperreal.pl> wrote:
>> Trust us. We won't.
>
>If you get the Comm-av address for me, you're a year out of date.
>
> - Darkhawk, muttering, "Lynn, Lynn. . ."
If you quote the whole thing at him, he'll be convince he has proof of
your guilt.
--
Lis Carey
Re-elect Gore in '04
Lis Carey
<40dfctk8pr7pbf0n6...@4ax.com>:
>On Sun, 1 Apr 2001 13:06:12 +0200 (CEST), Anonymous
><m...@mix2.hyperreal.pl> wrote:
>
>>It's always nice to put a child molester in jail. I do hope that
>>everyone that supports Kramer and his actions in here are having
>>their posts, along with their e-mail addresses sent to the police
>>department that arrested Kramer. This is being done by myself. As
>>well, if your real address is found out, it will be posted in here
>>as well as being sent to the authorities.
>
>If you're doing that, why do you hope it will be done? What makes
>you think we support Kramer? We support justice, which may show
>he's innocent, may show he's guilty. As to my real address, well,
>any half-wit could find it on the net. I'm not afraid to sign my
>posts.
He thinks we support Ed Kramer because he cannot distinguish between
supporting the First, Fourth, and Fifth Amendments, and wanting to let
criminals off the hook. He is unable to fully comprehend the notion
that mere accusation is not proof of guilt, and he can't form the idea
in his head that even if someone _is_ guilty, you _still_ need to
protect their rights, in order to protect the rights of the innocent
accused.
Right now, Mr. Anonymous, we know only that Ed Kramer is accused of
child molestation. We have no idea whatsoever whether he's guilty or
innocent. Your tactics, and the tactics of Joe Christ and Nancy
Collins, do not, however, inspire confidence in his guilt. Quite the
opposite.
David G. Bell
> gra...@dsl.ca (Graydon Saunders) writes:
>
> > On Sun, 1 Apr 2001 23:56:09 +0200 (CEST), Anonymous
> > <m...@mix2.hyperreal.pl> scripsit:
> > >Dead wrong. They want anything that has to do with the activities of
> > >Kramer sent as possible evidence. As well, more child molesters might
> > >be drawn out of the woodwork as a result of my actions. Do you not
> > >agree that every effort should be made to put child molesters away?
> >
> > Of course not.
> >
> > You have to care about the 'fair trial' part; you have to care about
> > the 'due process of law' part, and you have to care about these things
> > *more* than you care about putting child molestors away.
> >
>
> And I'll go further: Not every case of sex with a 14 year old boy is
> "child molestation".
I was trying to recall the age of the reported victim.
I remember when I was 14, and I was pretty curious about sex, and
calling me a "child" in those days felt like some sort of sneering
insult. The way that "child" gets used as a label in the laws, and in
the speech of people like this anonymous fugghead, is dangerous because
it loses context. I don't know what the age-limit is in our anonymous
interlocutor's place of residence, but I wonder what magical
transformation there can be which he believes makes all persons under
that age into children vulnerable to abuse. Growing up is a fuzzy
thing, with none of the step-function transisitions that the law, and
people who forget their own growing up, set out in black and white.
But if age alone was the definition of sexual abuse, the crime of rape
would not exist. There's force, and seduction, and even curious 14-
year-olds who won't take 'no' for an answer. There's a whole spectrum
of possibilities, all lumped together under the one label, and we may
never know for sure what happened.
And because the laws lump together 4-year-olds and 14-year-olds, and
because the labels encourage us to think of the worst possible events,
and because we still get mobs in frenzied riot over the supposed
presence of a paedophile, we have to pay attention to getting the
process of law right. Whether or not Ed Kramer did what is alleged, the
witch-hunt that has followed, and the acts of people such as this
anonymous poster, are as vile, as despicable, and as disruptive to the
social fabric, as anything he might have done.
David Bell,
Church Farm,
Church Street,
North Kelsey,
Market Rasen,
LN7 6EQ
[Evil thought: how is the schmuck going to fit that into his American
address database software?]
--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.
If I were to go back to my schooldays, knowing what I know now, I would
pack cheese sandwiches for lunch.
Martin Wisse
<fa...@panix.com> wrote:
>And I'll go further: Not every case of sex with a 14 year old boy is
>"child molestation".
I'll make a really brave statement: pedophillia, being sexually
attracted to children, is not a crime.
No "anonymous", if you want my address you'll have to work for it.
Shouldn't be too hard, though judging from your record so far...
Martin Wisse
--
"So, you're the Unix guru." At the time Randy was still
stupid enough to be flattered by this attention when
he should have recognized them as bone-chilling words.
-From Cryptonomicon
Kip Williams
If malicious, then fairly inobservant. It's not how Warren signs his
own name.
--
--Kip (Williams)
amusing the world at http://members.home.net/kipw/
Kip Williams
And you'll grow a name and everything? Can't wait.
April Fool's day's over. Back into your box.
--
--Kip (Williams)
in Newport News, VA
Loren MacGregor
Hey, let's try a game? Several of us have posted our names (which
are on our posts) and our addresses (which are, in any event, a
matter of public record).
Why not do the same? Let's see -you- post your name and address
here!
At this stage, I don't really believe that you give a rat's ass
whether or not anyone accused of any crime is guilty or innocent --
you just want to stir up shit, and remain (you hope) safely
anonymous so that none of it hits you.
But -- guess what? -- if any of us really cared to do the research,
"Anonymous," your email address at the very least wouldn't remain
secret very long. But you're just not worth the bother.
-- LJM
Loren MacGregor
Wow. A public-record newsgroup -isn't' a private gathering? Oh,
-now- I'm worried!
-- LJM
James Nicoll
>"Joel Rosenberg" <jo...@winternet.com> writes:
>[...]
>> The US justice system is, in theory and almost certainly in practice, not
>> going to show that he's innocent, even if he is. "Not guilty" really means
>> "not proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt", and that's theoretically the
>> best a jury can do for somebody they've concluded really, truly absolutely
>> didn't do what they're accused of, and people will not necessarily conclude
>> from that that the guy didn't do it, and many will, in many cases, conclude
>> that hey, he did it, but he got off.
>
>Actually, I think there are some rare cases in which a defendant in a
>criminal case has been found innocent, rather than merely "not
>guilty". It's rare because it's generally not necessary (there's no
>real legal distinction between the "innocent" and "not guilty"), but
>it's done in some cases where the defendant was clearly improperly
>prosecuted.
Roscoe Arbuckle? I know he got an apology from the court which
acquitted him, not that it did him any good.
--
"Somehow I managed to get a job as an apprentice structural engineering
draughtsman, where I was supposed to design buildings which people would
sit in and the roof would not fall down and kill them. A big responsibility
for someone whose total education had come from PLANET STORIES." Bob Shaw
Michael J. Lowrey
> It's always nice to put a child molester in jail. I do hope that everyone
> that supports Kramer and his actions in here are having their posts, along
> with their e-mail addresses sent to the police department that arrested
> Kramer. This is being done by myself. As well, if your real address is
> found out, it will be posted in here as well as being sent to the authorities.
>
> with or without everyones' consent. If you don't like it, tough shit.
I despise Dragon*Con, considering it an example of the bad things that
can happen to the concept of "science fiction convention" in the hands
of people with no taste.
I do, however, believe in the right to a fair trial, and all the other
paraphernalia that distinguishes us from dictatorships.
My name, Mr. or Ms. Anonymous coward is:
(Rev.) Michael James Lowrey
1847 N. 2nd Street
Milwaukee, WI 53212-3760
day phone 414-229-5960
home phone 414-372-9745
primary e-mail address: ora...@execpc.com
My main fanzine is called VOJO DE VIVO, in case you're into attempted
bookburning as well!
For that matter, I ride with the Great Dark Horde, wherein I hight Lord
Inali of Tanasi; and I do deem thee a caitiff cur and knave, sirrah!
I consider you a contemptible little creep; you may quote me on that, to
your miserable heart's content!
Corwin Brust
> "Joel Rosenberg" <jo...@winternet.com> writes:
> [...]
> > The US justice system is, in theory and almost certainly in practice, not
> > going to show that he's innocent, even if he is. "Not guilty" really means
> > "not proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt", and that's theoretically the
> > best a jury can do for somebody they've concluded really, truly absolutely
> > didn't do what they're accused of, and people will not necessarily conclude
> > from that that the guy didn't do it, and many will, in many cases, conclude
> > that hey, he did it, but he got off.
>
> Actually, I think there are some rare cases in which a defendant in a
> criminal case has been found innocent, rather than merely "not
> guilty". It's rare because it's generally not necessary (there's no
> real legal distinction between the "innocent" and "not guilty"), but
> it's done in some cases where the defendant was clearly improperly
> prosecuted.
>
Don't you have to appeal separately for that though, once you've been found not
to be guilty?
Or can the judge of your original trial make that declaration after the jury
verdict is returned?
-Corwin [ Who will now spend a couple of hours trying to answer his own question
]
Michael J. Lowrey
> (I will take the opportunity to express some amusement that one of
> the major reasons (I don't know that it is the primary reason)
> people use anonymizers on usenet is to post pornographic stories and
> images which (theoretically) cannot be traced back to them. And,
> reading several pages on anonymizer services, it is fascinating to
> see how many of them add as one of the advantages that you can keep
> your coworkers and managers from knowing where you surf on line. It
> certainly suggests that the sites at least believe that their
> potential clients -will- be doing something which would get them in
> trouble if others knew about it.)
In (partial) defense of anonymizer services, I will point out that they
can also serve as protection for people wanting to post politically
dangerous information. Not everyone is in a position to be as bold as
the average member of this newsgroup about stating their political or
social opinions, especially in a number of countries we all could name
just by looking at our daily newspapers.
Heck, for that matter, protection from near-psychotic levels of sexual
repression is not inherently an evil goal. There could be situations
where somebody might want to post their erotic writings without being
branded a "pornographer," particularly if in their country that sort of
thing can mean imprisonment.
--
Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey
Sunrise Book Reviews (yes, we do review erotica)
1847 N. 2nd Str.
Milwaukee, WI 53212-3760
Corwin Brust
> > Call it invasion of privacy. Call it whatever you want, but it's being done
> > with or without everyones' consent. If you don't like it, tough shit.
>
> I believe harassment is the appropriate technical term for what you're
> doing.
Oh, now David. No need to get technical on the poor bastard. All he wants to do is
get us to admit that were all child molesters; that, and maybe shave.
-Corwin
Corwin Brust
> Anonymous was either sloppy or malicious. You choose.
Well sloppy would be more in character, but malicious is so much more fun,
in context.
-Corwin [ Who can only receive small letter bombs as he has more of a mail
cubby then a box ]
Joel Rosenberg
"Anonymous" <m...@mix2.hyperreal.pl> wrote in message
news:12c6bc49a4c9bd47...@mix2.hyperreal.pl...
And who, precisely is it that you think you're fooling and/or scaring?
Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y
Anonymous <m...@mix2.hyperreal.pl> wrote:
>
>Then we can reasonably assume you support the rape of teen boys? It's very
>simple. You're either for it, or against it. We know where you stand .
We can reasonably assume that you have problems hearing whoever
is reading this thread out loud to you over the noise of an axe
being ground. Or equivalently that your reading comprehension
is impeded by the beam in thine own eye, in case you are normally
literate.
>It'll be interesting to see all of the back-pedaling around here when ped
>boy gets convicted. That's when i take it to real life.
Ooh, a clumsy threat from an anonymous poltroon. How frightening.
There are more entertaining fools than you on Usenet; I shall lose
no more time on you.
--
Leif Kj{\o}nn{\o}y | "Its habit of getting up late you'll agree
www.pvv.org/~leifmk| That it carries too far, when I say
Math geek and gamer| That it frequently breakfasts at five-o'clock tea,
GURPS, Harn, CORPS | And dines on the following day." (Carroll)
Corwin Brust
[SNIP]
> Let's see -you- post your name and address
> here!
>
> At this stage, I don't really believe that you give a rat's ass
> whether or not anyone accused of any crime is guilty or innocent --
> you just want to stir up shit, and remain (you hope) safely
> anonymous so that none of it hits you.
>
> But -- guess what? -- if any of us really cared to do the research,
> "Anonymous," your email address at the very least wouldn't remain
> secret very long. But you're just not worth the bother.
You mean one other then gel...@gim.com.pl, I assume.
-Corwin
David T. Bilek
I thought it was pretty clear from context that Mr. Anonymous was
trying to intimidate people by posting the name and address from
somebody who was replying to one of his posts in a less than
obsequious manner.
-David