Priest is fined for barring guide dog
john_lo...@my-deja.com
From the Toronto Star, June 24, 1999
June 24, 1999
Priest is fined for barring guide dog
Blind woman wins case, church studies appeal
By Josh Brown
Toronto Star Staff Reporter
A Toronto priest was fined $1,000 for turning a blind woman
and her guide dog away from a church door because he felt it
violated church rules.
``People with seeing-eye dogs should be granted access to
churches,'' said Justice of the Peace Marcel Bedard in his ruling
yesterday morning. ``I think the law is quite clear and the
evidence is quite clear.''
But the head of the Greek Orthodox Church in Canada disagrees
and said the church might appeal the decision on the priest's
behalf.
``The church is a sacred place and the rules must be obeyed,''
said Archbishop Sotirios Athanasoulas, who oversees all 76 of
the country's Greek Orthodox churches.
<snip>
The full story is at
http://www.thestar.ca/editorial/news/990624NEW05b_CI-BLIND24.html
--
John Loukidelis
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
BITSCRIBE
>and her guide dog away from a church door because he felt it
>violated church rules.
A dear friend of mine is blind, and her guide dog often guides her up to
receive the Holy Eucharist. No jurisdiction, and only one place has ever asked
her not to take the dog into the Nave of the Church, but they also made
arrangements to have someone guide her while she was in the Church. They looked
after her dog, too.
I remember Archbishop Dimitri of the OCA petting her dog after the Liturgy,
some years ago. Her dog was with her in the OCA Church.
George McGuire
GS
frescoe type wall icons. I know this is off topic, but I just wanted to say
that. It seemed so incongruous a thought when I visualized a blind woman
going there. What I remember the church for most is something she could
never even have seen.
Dogs and cats in church are against canons and Saint Demetrius has pews
also, so it is difficult to understand why a guide dog would be needed (they
also have ushers there). It is not that huge a church inside, either.
<john_lo...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:7kt7t6$4a1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
:
:
: From the Toronto Star, June 24, 1999
:
: June 24, 1999
:
: Priest is fined for barring guide dog
:
: Blind woman wins case, church studies appeal
:
: By Josh Brown
: Toronto Star Staff Reporter
:
: A Toronto priest was fined $1,000 for turning a blind woman
: and her guide dog away from a church door because he felt it
: violated church rules.
:
: ``People with seeing-eye dogs should be granted access to
GS
up to a goat (kid) and informing it that I could not be inside the church
but must wait outside, then the goat leaving, on its own, along with a few
flies, and waiting patiently just outside the church door . I have seen
chickens shooed out, too.
BITSCRIBE <bits...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990624093613...@ng-cf1.aol.com...
: >A Toronto priest was fined $1,000 for turning a blind woman
: >and her guide dog away from a church door because he felt it
: >violated church rules.
:
: A dear friend of mine is blind, and her guide dog often guides her up to
Atsaves
devices to help the blind get around.
So if there are pews in Church, then a blind person needs not the guidance of
his or her guide dog to get around? Just bang against the pews? Stumble on
the steps? Walk face first right into the iconostasio? And the canons forbid
such tools and devices for the handicapped? Whose canons, someone who
specializes in torture and playing sick jokes on others, or the canons of a
Church of love and compassion?
Sorry, I refuse to accept that our Church could be so mean spirited. I refuse
to accept that our canons could be read so harshly. You leave the horses
outside. You leave the cats outside. A guide dog, like a cane, crutch or
wheelchair, should be allowed in.
Lets show some enlightenment here!
What is next? Showing an amputee out the door because his missing arm or leg
makes us uncomfortable? A cancer victim who is pale, wane and hairless should
stay outside because he may cause us some distraction by being in Church?
I've seen some pretty mean postings in my time, but the "anti-beast" brigade
postings around here ought to open up those minds that God gave them and use
them for once.
Regards,
Louis Geo. Atsaves
<< Subject: Re: Priest is fined for barring guide dog
From: "GS" <sp...@erols.com>
Date: Fri, 25 June 1999 01:34 AM EDT
Message-id: <7kv44b$kc0$1...@autumn.news.rcn.net>
Saint Demitrius Church where the person went has absolutely beautiful
frescoe type wall icons. I know this is off topic, but I just wanted to say
that. It seemed so incongruous a thought when I visualized a blind woman
going there. What I remember the church for most is something she could
never even have seen.
Dogs and cats in church are against canons and Saint Demetrius has pews
also, so it is difficult to understand why a guide dog would be needed (they
also have ushers there). It is not that huge a church inside, either.
<john_lo...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:7kt7t6$4a1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
:
:
: From the Toronto Star, June 24, 1999
:
: June 24, 1999
:
: Priest is fined for barring guide dog
:
: Blind woman wins case, church studies appeal
:
: By Josh Brown
: Toronto Star Staff Reporter
:
: A Toronto priest was fined $1,000 for turning a blind woman
: and her guide dog away from a church door because he felt it
: violated church rules.
:
evagr...@my-deja.com
No beasts in the Church?
St. Francis brought beasts into a church. He "created" the first creche
scene.
That scene is now universally known, by Christians and non-Christians.
Everyone knows that there was a donkey, a cow, some sheep, a horse,
etc;etc;
All children know it too.
So, St. Francis broke the canons.
And spread the Gospel of the Nativity all over the world in a graphic,
profound way.
Of course, he wasn't "Orthodox"!
In article <19990625100836...@ng-ba1.aol.com>,
GS
Atsaves <ats...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990625100836...@ng-ba1.aol.com...
: Sorry, let me repeat. Guide dogs are not "pets." Guide dogs are tools,
: devices to help the blind get around.
:
: So if there are pews in Church, then a blind person needs not the guidance
of
: his or her guide dog to get around? Just bang against the pews?
I mentioned ushers and a specific church (the one that was sued)
Stumble on
: the steps? Walk face first right into the iconostasio? And the canons
forbid
: such tools and devices for the handicapped? Whose canons, someone who
: specializes in torture and playing sick jokes on others, or the canons of
a
: Church of love and compassion?
:
: Sorry, I refuse to accept that our Church could be so mean spirited. I
refuse
: to accept that our canons could be read so harshly. You leave the horses
: outside. You leave the cats outside. A guide dog, like a cane, crutch or
: wheelchair, should be allowed in.
Like I said, why not bring this and other possbly outdated canons up? Does
the chruch have to be sued in order to bring up an issue?? Is there only
one way of making accommodations? What about people who are allergic to
dogs? I know presits who have made accommodations such as asking that there
be no roses over allergies.
:
: Lets show some enlightenment here!
:
: What is next? Showing an amputee out the door because his missing arm or
leg
: makes us uncomfortable? A cancer victim who is pale, wane and hairless
should
: stay outside because he may cause us some distraction by being in Church?
I hope you are not putting words in my mouth. I was suggesting
accommodations.
:
: I've seen some pretty mean postings in my time, but the "anti-beast"
brigade
: postings around here ought to open up those minds that God gave them and
use
: them for once.
I am all for making accommodations, but I think that there are many ways to
make accommodations with kindness.
:
: Regards,
:
: >>
:
:
:
Anthony J. Bryant
>
> No beasts in the Church?
> St. Francis brought beasts into a church. He "created" the first creche
> scene.
> Of course, he wasn't "Orthodox"!
My friend, that last line points out all that needs be said.
Tony
evagr...@my-deja.com
are correct.
However St. Francis, because he had the love of Christ, the love of
fellow humam beings and the love for animals paramount in his life
guiding his actions and words in every way, was Orthodox in the way it
really matters.
Those who dismiss others and their sanctity because they don't have the
correct affiliation or correct hat on are overlooking some tremendous
personalities.
They are also insulting the work of God, who probably cares not a whit
for the petty distinctions we make.
St. Francis had a pure heart. That's all God wants.
In article <3773EAEA...@indiana.edu>,
Marina
bless animals on his feast day. This is usually done in the courtyard of the
church. There are a whole host of prayers for animals in the Prayer Book -
perhaps a special one could be adapted for guide dogs.
About the case in question - it certainly is unfortunate. It was the second
time the dog-owner had been asked to leave her guide dog outside (once at a
wedding, another time at a christening). It seems,from the news report, that
she wasn't actually a parishioner, but attending ceremonies of friends.
Really - this thing should be solved on a pastoral level. However, in
another news report, the lady said that she took them to court "to make a
point". It is sad that this had top go to court -- there could have been
more understanding on both sides.
Marina
Anthony J. Bryant <ajbr...@indiana.edu> wrote in message
news:3773EAEA...@indiana.edu...
evagr...@my-deja.com
welcoming animals into the Kingdom!
I don't believe they have any disputes nor problems recognizing each
other!
As far as the episode in question, I believe the priest was a
diplomatically clumsy chap who just was unable to let go.
Too bad.
In article <7l0p6n$njo$1...@newssrv.otenet.gr>,
Atsaves
always work. The usher would need to be trained in how to guide a blind
person.
Having been put in that position in the past, let me tell you, its not easy.
The guide dog is trained to do what ushers are not in this situation.
Regards,
Louis Geo. Atsaves
<< Subject: Re: Priest is fined for barring guide dog
From: "GS" <sp...@erols.com>
Date: Fri, 25 June 1999 01:23 PM EDT
Message-id: <7l0dl3$82g$1...@autumn.news.rcn.net>
: : Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
:
: >>
: >>
Bryan J. Maloney
> No beasts in the Church?
> St. Francis brought beasts into a church. He "created" the first creche
> scene.
Francis of Asisi [sic] is not in the Church. He is purely Roman
Catholic. It is a miserable attempt at a precedent.
--
Go gcreime na gráinneoga cealgrúnacha do thóin bheagmhaitheasach.
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/bjm10/
Wayne Andres
But, Bryan, is it not a very clever and subtle attempt on the part of our
thoroughly modern orthodox Mystery Man?
--
Wayne
mailto:wayne...@sprint.ca
Christopher Beattie
> No beasts in the Church?
> St. Francis brought beasts into a church.
> He "created" the first creche scene.
I don't want to break your argument, but technically
he didn't do that. He created the first creche scene
not inside the church but at a outdoor location which
iirc was on a hillside. There was a mass said at
that site, but it was not technically in the church.
--
Peace & Good!
Christopher Beattie SFO
KOC, SPEBSQSA, et.al.
Charley & Melissa Wingate
> Francis of Assisi is not in the Church. He is purely Roman
> Catholic. It is a miserable attempt at a precedent.
John said to him, "Teacher, we saw a man casting out demons in your
name, and we forbade him, because he was not following us." But Jesus
said, "Do not forbid him; for no one who does a mighty work in my name
will be able soon after to speak evil of me."
The casual dismissal of St. Francis over what is, in essence, an
accident of birth hardly speaks well for Orthodoxy.
C. Wingate
Wayne Andres
Not really. It simply means that his being outside the visible Church
makes the use of him for that particular issue, irrelevant. His being
outside the visible Church in no way means he is not a Christian, however.
In some way Orthodox Christians do not fully understand the Lord will have
mercy upon him if he so chooses (just as He will for those within the
Church as well).
--
Wayne
mailto:wayne...@sprint.ca
Bryan J. Maloney
<whi...@erols.com> wrote:
> Bryan J. Maloney wrote:
>
> > Francis of Assisi is not in the Church. He is purely Roman
> > Catholic. It is a miserable attempt at a precedent.
>
> John said to him, "Teacher, we saw a man casting out demons in your
> name, and we forbade him, because he was not following us." But Jesus
> said, "Do not forbid him; for no one who does a mighty work in my name
> will be able soon after to speak evil of me."
>
> The casual dismissal of St. Francis over what is, in essence, an
> accident of birth hardly speaks well for Orthodoxy.
Did Jesus then tell the Apostles to run out and study this man and imitate
him? Tell me where He said this. I'd like a quote from you. I never
said that Francis was necessarily evil for what he did, only that he is
not Orthodox, and thus not a *necessary* precedent for Orthodoxy.
Andrew Tsikitas
bringing their pets to Church (God forbid), but people bringing this animal,
which is specially trained to guide them in the Church. I do not see the
problem with allowing that. Restaurants and hospitals, as well as all other
public buildings allow for seeing-eye-dogs to enter, so why not a Church? I
do not believe that at the time the particular canon was written that
animals were used in that capacity, otherwise I am sure that there would
have been an exception made.
-A.N.T.
>: : Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>:
>: >>
>:
>:
>:
>
>
Andrew Tsikitas
to Henry by any means) has come amongst us. I wish that people would stop
coming on this NG to take "pot-shots" at a group that they more than likely
know very little about. Nobody ever said that the Orthodox were perfect.
humbly yours in Christ,
-A.N.T.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Charley & Melissa Wingate wrote in message <3774E151...@erols.com>...
>The casual dismissal of St. Francis over what is, in essence, an
>accident of birth hardly speaks well for Orthodoxy.
>
>C. Wingate