Voicing Renner Hammers
Jory Olson
I recently had my Petrof III (6' 4") grand voiced and I'm wondering if the
technician used an approved method for doing the voicing. This model
Petrof uses all Renner action parts assembled on a Petrof action frame.
The piano was made in April 1997 and I've purchased it new about two months
ago.
The technician used a 50/50 solution of rubbing alcohol and water to soften
the hammers. He said that the alcohol acts as a wetting agent to get the
water deep into the felt where it makes the felt swell. Swollen felt is a
softer felt. Since I prefer a darker, warmer tone he was trying to soften
the hammers a bit. He roughly metered the voicing potion on the hammers
based on the brilliance of the tone: brighter notes got more dousing. He
came back a few days later (after the hammers dried) and used more typical
procedures like needling and filing to get the voice just right.
He said that Renner hammers tend to me pretty hard and it takes alot of
muscle to loosen them up or just a little water. The piano tuner also
remarked about the hardness of the hammers. He could hardly get the needle
in the felt.
The piano sounds, but I'm wondering if this technique is Standard Operation
Procedure (SOP) or just his own creation.
----
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DIE, Spammers DIE!
Rick Clark
"Jory Olson" <jory...@teleport.com> wrote:
>The piano sounds, but I'm wondering if this technique is Standard Operation
>Procedure (SOP) or just his own creation.
Since I have seen mention of "hammer softening solution" in tech
catalogues, I can only assume that other people do this, too. But not
having seen positive tech articles on the subject, I would be afraid
to try it, uninformed.
I am somewhat skeptical for this reason: It is a long established tech
procedure to use a solution similar to what you mention to *shrink*
the felt in action centers. Yes, it swells initially, but when the
water evaporates, it shrinks. Also, having seen water damage in
pianos... the hammers come out not looking too good.
> He said that the alcohol acts as a wetting agent to get the
>water deep into the felt where it makes the felt swell. Swollen felt is a
>softer felt
Here's what I feel might be wrong with that idea: If it truly swells,
one of 2 things would have to occur. Either the hammer changes shape
and gets bigger (possibly tearing up fibres or ripping the glue joint
in the process), or it *doesn't* get bigger, meaning there is now
*more* tension, making the hammer *harder*.
FWIW, someone mentioned to me once the idea of applying Woolite as a
hammer softener. But I ain't tryin' that, either- unless I am
satisfied it is a good idea.
Many hammers can be hard to get a needle into. That's very true.
That's why I was very happy when I figured out how I could get a
needle into a Dremel tool. Now it is a very satisfying experience.
Rick Clark
Rick Clark
Just for general reference in this thread: "Drug store alcohol"
typically varies in water content from about 10% to about 30%. It
relates to price- the cheaper stuff having more water. If you read the
label and see "70% Alchohol" you can assume the other 30% is water,
etc.
I only bring this up for those who might want to try these techniques,
so that you can be aware and under control of the amount of water you
are putting in these hammers.
My suggestion is use denatured alcohol- which most techs are going to
have around, anyway. Then if you add water- you control the amount.
Rick Clark
Roy Peters
I believe that this is a relatively common technique. It was taught to me
by a tech who does alot of player installs, and I have seen it recommended
by PianoDisc in a manual. A big problem with player units is that they are
often too loud, and so this is a common technique to help quiet the piano.
It is not something you would try in and of itself to do a fine voicing job,
but it certainly works well if you want to radically tone down an
instrument. Basically, it's a lot less work than needling. I sometimes
use a heat gun to speed the process. One effect of the procedure is that of
swelling the felt. I also believe that it probably has the effect of
washing hardener away from the strike point of the hammer. The tech I
learned this from said that he likes to use an acetone based hardener for
this very reason - it's not permanent. He can go back and wash it out with
this solution. Basically, I only use the alcohol solution if I want to get
a radical effect, usually on newer pianos that I think probably have alot of
hardener in the hammer.
Roy Peters
Jory Olson wrote in message <01bd5883$e50f7f00$ddaecacc@default>...
>I recently had my Petrof III (6' 4") grand voiced and I'm wondering if the
>technician used an approved method for doing the voicing. This model
>Petrof uses all Renner action parts assembled on a Petrof action frame.
>The piano was made in April 1997 and I've purchased it new about two months
>ago.
>
>The technician used a 50/50 solution of rubbing alcohol and water to soften
>the hammers. He said that the alcohol acts as a wetting agent to get the
>water deep into the felt where it makes the felt swell. Swollen felt is a
>softer felt. Since I prefer a darker, warmer tone he was trying to soften
>the hammers a bit. He roughly metered the voicing potion on the hammers
>based on the brilliance of the tone: brighter notes got more dousing. He
>came back a few days later (after the hammers dried) and used more typical
>procedures like needling and filing to get the voice just right.
>
>He said that Renner hammers tend to me pretty hard and it takes alot of
>muscle to loosen them up or just a little water. The piano tuner also
>remarked about the hardness of the hammers. He could hardly get the needle
>in the felt.
>
>The piano sounds, but I'm wondering if this technique is Standard Operation
>Procedure (SOP) or just his own creation.
nepianos
Jory Olson wrote in message <01bd5883$e50f7f00$ddaecacc@default>...
>I recently had my Petrof III (6' 4") grand voiced and I'm wondering if the
>technician used an approved method for doing the voicing. This model
>Petrof uses all Renner action parts assembled on a Petrof action frame.
>The piano was made in April 1997 and I've purchased it new about two months
>ago.
>
>The technician used a 50/50 solution of rubbing alcohol and water to soften
>the hammers. He said that the alcohol acts as a wetting agent to get the
>water deep into the felt where it makes the felt swell.
____________________________________________________
Hi Jory:
The place to go for definitive advice on voicing Renner Hammers would be to
Alan Vincent. He is the National Service Manager for Petrof (Geneva
International, Wheeling, IL) and would give you straight advice. He is one
of the finest techs I have ever met and knows the Renner Hammer issue inside
and out. FYI, there has been some experimentation with using hammers other
than Renner because of hardness issues. Anyway, you can give him a call at
800-533-2388.
Regards,
Joe
Mario Bruneau
Hi Rick,
what is denatured alcohol?
thanks
Mario Bruneau
Rick Clark a écrit:
Rick Clark
Mario Bruneau <NOSPAM...@concentric.net> wrote:
>Hi Rick,
>what is denatured alcohol?
>thanks
>Mario Bruneau
Hi, Mario,
Literally, it is alcohol that has had it's molecules altered so that
it no longer is fit to drink. It is also the common name in the U.S.
for the type of solvent alcohol found in paint or hardware stores, or
sold as fuel for alcohol lamps or stoves. Perhaps in your area there
is a different name for that.
Rick
Kurt Krueger
Rick Clark wrote:
>
> Mario Bruneau <NOSPAM...@concentric.net> wrote:
> >what is denatured alcohol?
>
> Literally, it is alcohol that has had it's molecules altered so that
> it no longer is fit to drink.
Or, it could be grain (ethyl) alcohol that has another poisonous
type of alcohol (methyl, isopropyl, etc.) added to it.
I've seen alcohol referred to as 'methylated spirits' in
British car manuals.
The typical stuff you buy in a drug store is a solution of
about 60% denatured alcohol and 40% water. Depending on
the application, you may not want that water. 95% isopropyl
alcohol is generally available as a water free variety.
Everclear is about 95% ethyl alcohol ... but since it's
drinkable it costs a lot more.
Note: alcohol purer than 95% is difficult to produce and
is insanely expensive. Besides, it likes to suck up
water. Exposure to the air will turn it into 95% alcohol
pretty fast.
Frank Jahnke
Denatured alcohol is ethanol (grain alcohol) with about 5% methanol (wood
alcohol) added to make sure that consumption is not pleasant.
Frank Jahnke, Ph.D.
Rick Clark
jah...@crl.crl.com (Frank Jahnke) wrote:
>Denatured alcohol is ethanol (grain alcohol) with about 5% methanol (wood
>alcohol) added to make sure that consumption is not pleasant.
I can't argue with that. I was actually just extrapolating what I
remember from school days concerning the denaturing of proteins,
wherein the molecular shape is reconformed and the properties thus
altered. Maybe the term is used differently in the case of alcohol.
Since you are a PhD with some chemical knowledge, maybe you can shed
light on something that came up in this thread- which is: how do
fabric softeners work? I have determined thus far that they contain
cationic surfactants, which will cling to the negatively charged wool
fibres- but I haven't yet been able to figure out what the actual
softening action is. I would like to puzzle this out re the wisdom of
doing this to piano hammers.
Thanks much for any light you can shed.
Rick Clark
Bill Bailer
On 28 Mar 1998, Frank Jahnke wrote:
>Denatured alcohol is ethanol (grain alcohol) with about 5% methanol (wood
>alcohol) added to make sure that consumption is not pleasant.
>
>Frank Jahnke, Ph.D.
Just to further reduce any missunderstandings, when we refer to
"denatured alcohol" in the piano technicians' trade, we mean the type
that is sold as a solvent in hardware stores. It may also be labelled
as "shellac thinner", and is at least 95% ethyl alcohol.
The type that is sold in drug stores is now more often actually
isopropyl alcohol, but in either form, is only 70% alcohol, and
30% water, which is definitely NOT suitable for piano work.
Bill Bailer
wba...@cris.com, Rochester NY USA, tel:716-473-9556
Acoustics, piano technology, music theory, JSBach