Honored more in the breach than in the observance?
Sleepless in Seattle
What is the source of this oft heard quotation?
Robert M. Wilson
"Sleepless in Seattle" <desv...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:38D3CFF8...@mindspring.com...
> "A rule honored more in the breach than in the observance."
>
> What is the source of this oft heard quotation?
It is a custom
More honored in the breach than the observance.
-- Shakespeare, Hamlet, I,iv,15.
Sleepless in Seattle
> "Robert M. Wilson" wrote:
> It is a custom
> More honored in the breach than the observance.
> -- Shakespeare, Hamlet, I,iv,15.
Boy! That was quick! Many thanks!
I'll have to stop in here more often.
Robert M. Wilson
"AJA" <ahne...@microdsi.net> wrote in message
news:38d5fe5d...@news.microdsi.net...
> Hamlet doesn't participate in the Danish custom of shooting off
> cannons every time the King takes a drink. Weird scene.
> Best,
> Ann
> >
> >"Sleepless in Seattle" <desv...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> >news:38D3CFF8...@mindspring.com...
> >> "A rule honored more in the breach than in the observance."
> >>
> >
> >
> >More honored in the breach than the observance.
> > -- Shakespeare, Hamlet, I,iv,15.
More:
Though I am native here
And to the manner born, it is a custom
More honor'd in the breach than the observance.
-- Shakespeare, 'Hamlet,' I,iv,14.
Hamlet is suggesting that there is more honor in breaking than observing the
custom, which is to drain a goblet of wine in a single gulp when making a
toast.
He finds his country's reputation for drunkenness embarrassing.
The quote is commonly misused to refer to a custom more often ignored than
followed.
to the manner born = accustomed to it since a child
(sometimes misquoted as "to the manor born")
honour'd = we gain honour in
He also says:
This heavy-headed revel east and west
Makes us traduc'd and tax'd of other nations.
(All this drunkenness has given us a bad reputation)
Graham J Weeks
Robert M. Wilson wrote:
> Though I am native here
> And to the manner born, it is a custom
> More honor'd in the breach than the observance.
> -- Shakespeare, 'Hamlet,' I,iv,14.
>
> Hamlet is suggesting that there is more honor in breaking than observing the
> custom, which is to drain a goblet of wine in a single gulp when making a
> toast.
> He finds his country's reputation for drunkenness embarrassing.
> The quote is commonly misused to refer to a custom more often ignored than
> followed.
>
> to the manner born = accustomed to it since a child
> (sometimes misquoted as "to the manor born")
> honour'd = we gain honour in
>
> He also says:
>
> This heavy-headed revel east and west
> Makes us traduc'd and tax'd of other nations.
>
> (All this drunkenness has given us a bad reputation)
Thank you Robert. Posts like this confirm that this ng is an essential part of
one's continuing education.
ObQuote
Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival. -- W. Edwards Deming
--
Graham J Weeks
http://www.weeks-g.dircon.co.uk/ My homepage of quotations
http://www.grace.org.uk/churches/ealing.html Our church
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/Christiansquoting Daily quotes
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Be kind to unkind people - they need it the most.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ed C
Ed
Sleepless in Seattle <desv...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:38D40D31...@mindspring.com...
> > "Sleepless in Seattle" <desv...@mindspring.com> wrote
> > > What is the source of this oft heard quotation?
>
> > "Robert M. Wilson" wrote:
>
> > It is a custom
Roy Archer
news:8b17j...@enews4.newsguy.com...
>
> Though I am native here
> And to the manner born, it is a custom
> More honor'd in the breach than the observance.
> -- Shakespeare, 'Hamlet,' I,iv,14.
>
> Hamlet is suggesting that there is more honor in breaking
than observing the
> custom, which is to drain a goblet of wine in a single
gulp when making a
> toast.
> He finds his country's reputation for drunkenness
embarrassing.
> The quote is commonly misused to refer to a custom more
often ignored than
> followed.
>
> to the manner born = accustomed to it since a child
> (sometimes misquoted as "to the manor born")
> honour'd = we gain honour in
>
> He also says:
>
> This heavy-headed revel east and west
> Makes us traduc'd and tax'd of other nations.
>
> (All this drunkenness has given us a bad reputation)
>
>
sort of thing, or is it the change of use of the language
over those 400 years which makes the meaning cloudy? Another
example, also from Hamlet : "when the wind is southerly, I
know a hawk from a handsaw."
hawk = clear throat noisily.
--
Roy Archer
http://www.fonts.org.uk free fonts
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/archer free graphics
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/archer/updates.html
-
Robert M. Wilson
"Roy Archer" <desi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8b2ml0$4eoer$1...@fu-berlin.de...
Probably both, separately and together.
We certainly do not appear to catch subtleties of wording, particularly that
in poetic language, which the Elizabethan audience presumably were able to.
When I watch a videotape of a Sh. play, I usually have the text in front of
me or I miss quite a lot.
It is only slightly relevant, but I touch on this in my article found at:
http://www.socsci.kun.nl/ped/whp/histeduc/wilson/wilson10.html
Leslie Paul Davies
To say nothing of Legals' breeches...
GL
--
Paul W2SYF/4 Ft Lauderdale EL96vc
"Heisenberg may have slept here... "
Leslie Paul Davies
lpda...@bc.seflin.org
Daniel P. B. Smith
<r...@island.net> wrote:
> > > This heavy-headed revel east and west
> > > Makes us traduc'd and tax'd of other nations.
> > >
> > > (All this drunkenness has given us a bad reputation)
> > >
> > >
> > Is Shakespeare being a sly wordsmith when he writes that
> > sort of thing, or is it the change of use of the language
> > over those 400 years which makes the meaning cloudy? Another
> > example, also from Hamlet : "when the wind is southerly, I
> > know a hawk from a handsaw."
> > hawk = clear throat noisily.
> We certainly do not appear to catch subtleties of wording, particularly
> that
> in poetic language, which the Elizabethan audience presumably were able
> to.
> When I watch a videotape of a Sh. play, I usually have the text in front
> of
> me or I miss quite a lot.
When you consider that I am constantly running into references that I
don't understand in works that are less than a hundred years old, it's
hard to believe that even scholars catch more than a fraction of
Shakespeare's meaning.
Flip through any Stephen King novel at random... _Cujo,_ for example.
"I could imagine a worse situation," Roger had said... "What?" Vic
had asked. "Well," Roger had answered, "we could be working on the
Bon Vivant Vichysoisse account."
How many had to stop and think about _that_ one for a second? And
_Cujo_ was written less than twenty years ago.
"He took a Pilot Razor Point from the coffee can on the corner
of the desk and printed in large block letters...."
OK, maybe that one isn't very important. You can figure out from the
context that it must be some kind of a pen or pencil. But one of the
hallmarks of King's writing is the sense of verisimilitude he conveys by
picking just the _right_ brand names. What difference, _exactly,_ does
it make whether he had written "a Pilot Razor Point" or "a Bic" or "a
Papermate?" Yet somehow it does--in a way I can't explain even now--that
will become totally incomprehensible in a just a few more years.
"I didn't want to sell Tupperware and I didn't want to sell
Amway and I didn't want to give Stanley parties and I don't need
to join Weight Watchers."
By the way, what the heck is a "Stanley party?"
Now, consider the words to Cole Porter's "You're the Top." OK, I know
what Garbo's salary is, but what's a Drumstick Lipstick?
Go back a little further, to 1910 and Owen Johnson's Lawrenceville
stories. In _The Varmint,_ for example:
"Tomorrow," said the Tennessee Shad, "Volts Mashon is going to
install a safely light for us." "Elucidate," said Dink. "A safety
light is a light that has a connection with the door. Shut door,
light; open door, where is Moses? Midnight reading made a pleasure."
Moses?
"What do they feed you on, Rinky Dink," said the White Mountain
Canary softly. "Feed?" said Stover unwarily, not perceiving the
intent of the question. "Do they give you many green vegetables?"
Stover tried to laught appreciatively, but the sound fizzled
dolefully out. "Because, Dink," said the White Mountain Canary
earnestly, "you must not eat green vegetables, really you must
not. You're green enough already."
OK, something about being fresh or new, I suppose, but this is obviously
the 1910 equivalent of "a Pilot Razor Point." I gather that the freshman
is being teased about his callowness, I understand the meaning, but I
can't possibly _appreciate_ the passage.
I don't think _anyone_ can understand more than about 50% of a Gilbert
and Sullivan operetta. To suppose we can really grasp Shakespeare is
just silly.
--
Daniel P. B. Smith
current email address: dpbs...@bellatlantic.net
"Lifetime forwarding address:" dpbs...@alum.mit.edu
Roy Archer
message
news:dpbsmith-9C8DC9...@news5.bellatlantic.net..
.
>
> --
> Daniel P. B. Smith
> current email address: dpbs...@bellatlantic.net
> "Lifetime forwarding address:" dpbs...@alum.mit.edu
Shakespeare isn't writing in terms of brand names, purely in
language. I've never read a Stephen King novel but, from the
way you quote, it seems like he deals more with product
placement than anything else.
--
Roy Archer (still Old Curmudgeon)
http://www.fonts.org.uk free fonts
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/archer free graphics
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/archer/updates.html
-
Roy Archer
news:8b32d...@enews2.newsguy.com...
>
> > >
> > Is Shakespeare being a sly wordsmith when he writes that
> > sort of thing, or is it the change of use of the
language
> > over those 400 years which makes the meaning cloudy?
Another
> > example, also from Hamlet : "when the wind is southerly,
I
> > know a hawk from a handsaw."
> > hawk = clear throat noisily.
> >
> > Roy Archer
>
> Probably both, separately and together.
>
particularly that
> in poetic language, which the Elizabethan audience
presumably were able to.
> When I watch a videotape of a Sh. play, I usually have the
text in front of
> me or I miss quite a lot.
What I remember of Will, when I was young, was the BBCtv
version of the Wars of the Roses/Historical plays series
(Richard II through to Henry VI [part II]) and what I can
recall is the narrative drive of the thing, hour after hour,
week after week. I probably didn't understand more than a
fraction of what was being said. The story seems to have
been the thing (plus the performances: Robert Hardy as
Prince Hal [later Henry V]; Sean Connery as Harry Hotspur;
Terry Scully as Henry VI and many others). I don't know
about Shakespeare. What is it? He seems to be enjoyed and
appreciated in many languages other than English. How can
that be so? He invented so many words he seems virtually
un-translateable.
>
> It is only slightly relevant, but I touch on this in my
article found at:
>
>
http://www.socsci.kun.nl/ped/whp/histeduc/wilson/wilson10.ht
ml
always an interesting subject.
>
>
--
Roy Archer (still the Old Curmudgeon)
William C Waterhouse
"Daniel P. B. Smith" <dpbs...@bellatlantic.net> writes:
>...
> When you consider that I am constantly running into references that I
> don't understand in works that are less than a hundred years old, it's
> Shakespeare's meaning.
>...
> Go back a little further, to 1910 and Owen Johnson's Lawrenceville
> stories. In _The Varmint,_ for example:
>
> "Tomorrow," said the Tennessee Shad, "Volts Mashon is going to
> install a safely light for us." "Elucidate," said Dink. "A safety
> light is a light that has a connection with the door. Shut door,
> light; open door, where is Moses? Midnight reading made a pleasure."
>
> Moses?
Eric Partridge, in _A Dictionary of Cathch Phrases_, begins by
mentioning "Where was Moses when the light went out?" as heard
in Britain during World War I (when lights were dimmed because of
possible Zeppelin raids). But he then adds that the origin might be
American, quoting a correspondent who said that in his childhood
if lights went out, children would chant
"Where was Moses when the lights went out?
Down in the cellar eating sauerkraut."
Just like Mr. Smith, Partridge adds "But why Moses?" We don't need to
know that, however, to see how the phrase is being used.
William C. Waterhouse
Penn State
The Dangling Conversationalist
> In <dpbsmith-9C8DC9.16464519032000@news5>, dpbs...@bellatlantic.net writes:
> >
> > Go back a little further, to 1910 and Owen Johnson's Lawrenceville
> > stories. In _The Varmint,_ for example:
> >
> > "Tomorrow," said the Tennessee Shad, "Volts Mashon is going to
> > install a safely light for us." "Elucidate," said Dink. "A safety
> > light is a light that has a connection with the door. Shut door,
> > light; open door, where is Moses? Midnight reading made a pleasure."
> >
> > Moses?
>
> Eric Partridge, in _A Dictionary of Cathch Phrases_, begins by
> mentioning "Where was Moses when the light went out?" as heard
> in Britain during World War I (when lights were dimmed because of
> possible Zeppelin raids). But he then adds that the origin might be
> American, quoting a correspondent who said that in his childhood
> if lights went out, children would chant
>
> "Where was Moses when the lights went out?
> Down in the cellar eating sauerkraut."
>
> Just like Mr. Smith, Partridge adds "But why Moses?" We don't need to
> know that, however, to see how the phrase is being used.
Doesn't anybody read _Huckleberry Finn_ these days?
When we got up-stairs to his room he got me a coarse shirt and a
roundabout and pants of his, and I put them on. While I was at it
he asked me what my name was, but before I could tell him he
started to tell me about a bluejay and a young rabbit he had
catched in the woods day before yesterday, and he asked me where
Moses was when the candle went out. I said I didn't know; I hadn't
heard about it before, no way.
"Well, guess," he says.
"How'm I going to guess," says I, "when I never heard tell of it
before?"
"But you can guess, can't you? It's just as easy."
"WHICH candle?" I says.
"Why, any candle," he says.
"I don't know where he was," says I; "where was he?"
"Why, he was in the DARK! That's where he was!"
"Well, if you knowed where he was, what did you ask me for?"
"Why, blame it, it's a riddle, don't you see?
-:-
Many would contentedly suffer the consequences of their own
mistakes rather than the insolence of him who triumphs as their
deliverer.
--Samuel Johnson
--
Col. G. L. Sicherman
home: col...@mail.monmouth.com
work: sich...@lucent.com
web: <http://www.monmouth.com/~colonel/>
The Pied Typer
>
> "I didn't want to sell Tupperware and I didn't want to sell
> Amway and I didn't want to give Stanley parties and I don't need
> to join Weight Watchers."
>
> By the way, what the heck is a "Stanley party?"
Probably a Tupperware party with Stanley tools substituted for the
plastic dishware.
> Now, consider the words to Cole Porter's "You're the Top." OK, I know
> what Garbo's salary is, but what's a Drumstick Lipstick?
I think I've heard of it, but it was a long time ago. I'll look
into it.
> Stover tried to laught appreciatively, but the sound fizzled
> dolefully out. "Because, Dink," said the White Mountain Canary
> earnestly, "you must not eat green vegetables, really you must
> not. You're green enough already."
>
> OK, something about being fresh or new, I suppose, but this is obviously
> the 1910 equivalent of "a Pilot Razor Point." I gather that the freshman
> is being teased about his callowness, I understand the meaning, but I
> can't possibly _appreciate_ the passage.
The word "greenhorn" is still current, isn't it? I've seen this usage
of "green" in many places.
-:-
"To what do I owe the honor of this unexpected visit, Lord
Ruthven? ... alias Lyford Pemberton!"
H. C. Artmann, "Tom Parker, International Detective"
Lemming
wrote:
>The word "greenhorn" is still current, isn't it? I've seen this usage
>of "green" in many places.
A saying of my mother's, used if we kids were trying to put one over
on her, was (and still is) :-
"I'm not as green as I am cabbage looking".
I don't have any other reference for this.
Regards,
Derek Sorensen
--
Curiosity *may* have killed Schrodinger's cat.
Michael Phipps
>
>>The word "greenhorn" is still current, isn't it? I've seen this usage
>>of "green" in many places.
>
--"Antony and Cleopatra"
MP
hran...@netonecom.net
Phipps) wrote:
the OED's earliest citation for greenhorn is 1650. Green
(inexperienced) is at least a century older.
--
Ben Trovato
hran...@netonecom.net
444652N853431W
Frank Bohan
Daniel P. B. Smith <dpbs...@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
news:dpbsmith-9C8DC9...@news5.bellatlantic.net...
> In article <8b32d...@enews2.newsguy.com>, "Robert M. Wilson"
> <r...@island.net> wrote:
<Ruthless snipping>
> I don't think _anyone_ can understand more than about 50% of a Gilbert
> and Sullivan operetta. To suppose we can really grasp Shakespeare is
> just silly.
We are the very model of G&S Society, by Stanley J. Sharpless
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We are the very model of a G&S Society,
Inheriting traditions of theatrical propriety,
We'd like to think that D'oyly Carte, if he were looking down on us,
Would certainly approve our style and have no cause to frown on us,
But winds of change are blowing through our musical commmunity,
From which not even G&S can dare to claim immunity;
We've got a new producer now who wants to change things drastically,
And some of us have welcomed him less than enthusiastically,
He says "Your style's outmoded - I see I must correct a lot"
(The man has very obviously been influenced by Brecht a lot)
He's revamped all the songs and claims he's substituted better
words,
And to our consternation stuck in several four letter words,
He'd like to do "The Gondoliers" on ice at Wembley stadium
And "Patience" with a topless chorus line at the Palladium,
He's ruled out "The Mikado" on the grounds that it is racial,
(It's making fun of differences linguistical and facial),
He plans a new production of another Savoy hardy'un,
"The Yeomen of the Guard" will now become "The Avant-Gardian"
Poor "Princess Ida's" been demoted from the aristocracy.
She's now just plain "Ms Ida", in the interests of democracy,
He's redone "Trial By Jury", made it spicier and fancier,
The jury now gets nobbled by a Tokyo financier;
We ask him "What about the "Pirates", "Iolanthe", "Ruddigore"?
He new man shook his head and said "No way. Not any bloody more."
In short, the situation's now becoming quite Gilbertian,
Though if you to dare to hint as much, the look you get 's a
dirty'un.
Dismissing cavalierly all the repertoire encompasses,
With minimum delay he's caused a maximum of rumpuses
He is the very pattern of those modern impresarios
And we can only hold our breath and wait to see how far 'e goes.
===
Frank B
Frank Bohan
Lemming <l3m...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:38da64eb...@news.cis.dfn.de...
> >of "green" in many places.
Well, folks, Ah kinda remembers this little ol' word being used all of the
time in cowboy movies starring Roy Rogers, Gene Autry and the like. Seems Ah
must have remembered it well, 'cause that brainy fella Brewer what wrote a
Dictionary of Phrase and Fable says:
GREENHORN: A novice at any trade, profession, sport, etc. In allusion to the
"green horns" of a young horned animal.
Ya-hoooooooo
===
Frank B
Daniel P. B. Smith
<fra...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
> Daniel P. B. Smith <dpbs...@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
> news:dpbsmith-9C8DC9...@news5.bellatlantic.net...
>
> > I don't think _anyone_ can understand more than about 50% of a Gilbert
> > and Sullivan operetta. To suppose we can really grasp Shakespeare is
> > just silly.
>
> We are the very model of G&S Society, by Stanley J. Sharpless
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> We are the very model of a G&S Society,
> Inheriting traditions of theatrical propriety,
> We'd like to think that D'oyly Carte, if he were looking down on us,
> Would certainly approve our style and have no cause to frown on us,
> But winds of change are blowing through our musical commmunity,
> From which not even G&S can dare to claim immunity;
> We've got a new producer now who wants to change things drastically,
> And some of us have welcomed him less than enthusiastically,
> He says "Your style's outmoded - I see I must correct a lot"
> (The man has very obviously been influenced by Brecht a lot)
> He's revamped all the songs and claims he's substituted better
> words,
[snip]
And is the revival of "The Hot Mikado" faithful to the original?